Speaker 1: Hey, read today's episodes, can days spoilers for Daredevil seasons
Speaker 1: two and three plus the directors, because you actually need
Speaker 1: to know.
Speaker 2: That information, all right? Red?
Speaker 1: Hello, Am is Jason Excepcion.
Speaker 3: A rosy night?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we'll come on X ray Vision the podcast
Speaker 1: when we dive Dee video verite, movies, comics and pop culture.
Speaker 1: Color you from iHeart Podcast where we're bringing you three
Speaker 1: episodes a week every Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, plus news
Speaker 1: on the weekends.
Speaker 3: Well, in today's episode, we are nothing if not completionists here,
Speaker 3: So we have not only watched That Devil season one
Speaker 3: and recapped it, which you can listen to now on
Speaker 3: a previous episode, but we are also recapped Being Dead
Speaker 3: over seasons two and three with a small intermission to
Speaker 3: cover the defenders, because believe it or not, you need it,
Speaker 3: you need it, you do need it, or otherwise you're
Speaker 3: gonna be asking questions.
Speaker 1: So what happened?
Speaker 3: Right like we're gonna be asking in this episode important questions.
Speaker 3: Is Matt a good lawyer or simply a great monologuer?
Speaker 3: How many men can speak in groud whispers? And keep
Speaker 3: our attention? Why does Karen Page do anything that she does,
Speaker 3: and what portion of the Born Again comic book that
Speaker 3: we covered in our book club does the Disney Plus
Speaker 3: series named after it actually have left to tell. Let's
Speaker 3: get into it, Okay. Daredevil season two headline, who's killing everybody?
Speaker 3: The Punisher, he's in town and who's murdering and the
Speaker 3: Punisher is.
Speaker 1: Laying absolute fucking waste to various organized crime groups in
Speaker 1: the city, Bikers, mafia, everybody is just get blown away.
Speaker 1: You get a crazy shot at one point. You have
Speaker 1: a crazy shot at one point where the camera like
Speaker 1: peers through the blown out bullet wound in a guy
Speaker 1: as like an FBI agent is looking into the bullet hole.
Speaker 1: It's and it's nuts. Matt of course, is like, this
Speaker 1: is a problem. I've got to figure out what is
Speaker 1: going on. And initially everybody else like.
Speaker 3: This guy, like why doesn't he want.
Speaker 1: To go to cool? And initially everybody is thinking this
Speaker 1: must be like a gang, like a Seal Team six
Speaker 1: gang or something. No, it's one guy. This comes to
Speaker 1: a head in the middle of the season where Matt
Speaker 1: and this guy, the Frank Castle, the Punisher, and they
Speaker 1: have this big conversation on a rooftop that is uh,
Speaker 1: basically the philosophical arc of this season, like what is
Speaker 1: a vigilante? Is it better to do it Matt's way
Speaker 1: where you're just using your fists? Is it better to
Speaker 1: do it Frank's way?
Speaker 3: Where is there even really a difference?
Speaker 1: Is there a difference between the two? And this all
Speaker 1: comes to a head with a wonderful nod from the
Speaker 1: comic books where Frank has Matt tied up and in chains.
Speaker 1: He wakes up, and you know, Matt wakes up on
Speaker 1: the rooftop. He's like, why didn't you take off my mask?
Speaker 1: Frank's like, I don't care who you are. And then
Speaker 1: they have this long philosophical debate about which path is
Speaker 1: better and is there even a difference between the two?
Speaker 1: Come on, Red, what are you just gonna act like
Speaker 1: you're a kid at the playground beating criddles up with
Speaker 1: your fists. I'm putting them away for good. And then
Speaker 1: finally Frank gives Matt a choice. He's like, here's okay,
Speaker 1: here's what's gonna happen. I'm gonna kill this guy unless
Speaker 1: you here's a gun, unless you shoot me crazy because
Speaker 1: Matt refuses to do it, but Frank shoots the guy anyway,
Speaker 1: Matt's not able to save the guy. Debate debate over,
Speaker 1: we get some of the Frank Backstore, in which we
Speaker 1: discover that, uh, just like in the comics, his family
Speaker 1: was murdered in a botched gangland assassination and now Frank
Speaker 1: Castle is making sure that criminals pay the price.
Speaker 3: I just want to say something, right, so, Matt Murdoch,
Speaker 3: sweet Catholic boy, Matt Murdock. Right, but look, we have
Speaker 3: seen this man definitely kill people before. Like he's breaking
Speaker 3: people's necks. He's given me they're getting severe head trauma
Speaker 3: like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they'resspills who will like never speak to that family
Speaker 1: a gang because they're.
Speaker 3: On like a fucking iron lung. I feel like it's
Speaker 3: that actually ironically makes this a way more interesting season
Speaker 3: for me. But even though the show isn't fully ready
Speaker 3: to grapple with it, if you've actually the seasons, it's
Speaker 3: the Batman thing, Like it's the book does it mean
Speaker 3: to kill someone? The truth is, if you've I wrote
Speaker 3: a two hundred I think it was twenty five hundred
Speaker 3: worth piece of ign asking and answering whether Batman really
Speaker 3: kills And this is very much in that space where
Speaker 3: the devil doesn't. Matt doesn't like to think he kills people,
Speaker 3: but the reality is he does. It's just Punisher does
Speaker 3: it in a way that is more defined. He's like
Speaker 3: you are getting shot in the.
Speaker 1: Head, Like, yeah, he's just blowing people away.
Speaker 3: He's blowing people away. He's not just beating him up
Speaker 3: to get a rid of like Matt is a lot
Speaker 3: of what he does, just like Batman is a Catharsis,
Speaker 3: Whereas I think that Frank doesn't really get any Catharsis
Speaker 3: from killing these people. He just thinks it's what they
Speaker 3: deserve because his family died.
Speaker 1: I would Punisher is the more honest, vigilante about what
Speaker 1: he is doing, correct, Whereas while Matt is delusional on
Speaker 1: several level, like in his personal life, in his career,
Speaker 1: in his career as a crime fighter, it's that Catholic
Speaker 1: guilt thing of like, you know, I'm doing the thing
Speaker 1: that satisfies me, but also I hate myself for doing
Speaker 1: the thing.
Speaker 3: But also it's like it's the right thing to do.
Speaker 1: So I feel like, well, Punisher is more honest. Obviously,
Speaker 1: I feel like Mad is the better one for society.
Speaker 3: He's really compromised. Yes, obviously, as well, like we do
Speaker 3: have to put this into the context of the fact that,
Speaker 3: like when The Punisher was created as a Spider Man
Speaker 3: villain by the way, in you know, the seventies, created
Speaker 3: by Jerry Conway and John Remy Asenia and Russ Andrew,
Speaker 3: who many people often forget, but he was an amazing
Speaker 3: Spider Man villain and we were not living in a
Speaker 3: time where mass shootings were like an every day, every
Speaker 3: week occurrent.
Speaker 1: That was also the period of the seventies where perception
Speaker 1: and the truth of it, you know, was like crime
Speaker 1: was a lot higher, much much higher than it is today,
Speaker 1: and movies like Charles Bronson's The Charles Bronson Vehicle Death,
Speaker 1: Witch and the Dirty Hairy series were extremely popular, and
Speaker 1: while The Punisher was introduced as basically a villain, quickly
Speaker 1: became popular because of that feeling, that anti hero feeling
Speaker 1: that was exactly culturally at that time.
Speaker 3: You're so right, and it was actually I think Jerry
Speaker 3: Conway said that he was inspired by The Executioner, which
Speaker 3: was like a you know those thomb Pendleton where it's
Speaker 3: like those popular book series.
Speaker 1: The Executioners. In biography, Yeah.
Speaker 3: The first book is called War Against the Mafia, so
Speaker 3: I think you can understand. But those books sold millions
Speaker 3: and millions of copies. So I think you bring up
Speaker 3: a great point, like, at that time, this idea of
Speaker 3: psychologically unhinged anti heroes who maybe had a background in
Speaker 3: the military or who had lost someone and were driven
Speaker 3: to you know, there's so many movies about that stuff
Speaker 3: post Death Wish, which set up this idea of like
Speaker 3: vengeance against you know, criminals being this righteous path the
Speaker 3: substitute movies where a guy just goes into like a
Speaker 3: predominantly black and around school and just starts like breaking
Speaker 3: people's fingers and everyone's like, yeah, those kids are badly behaved.
Speaker 3: They deserved it. Death Wish is very much in line
Speaker 3: with that. So I think that that makes season two
Speaker 3: of Daredevil and The Punisher in general, and as people
Speaker 3: know who have listened to this podcast or who read
Speaker 3: Marvel Comics, that has been an ongoing conversation at Marvel
Speaker 3: Comics since really the twenty tens at least, if not before,
Speaker 3: the idea of like what does the Punisher represent? And
Speaker 3: so I do think that the show was a little
Speaker 3: bit ironically, even though it's from twenty sixteen, I think
Speaker 3: it was like a little bit ahead of the conversation
Speaker 3: and wasn't as ready to have the wider conversation. So
Speaker 3: I'm hoping the new show will. But I do find
Speaker 3: I love a conversation about how.
Speaker 1: To be a bit. I do think overall that the
Speaker 1: Matt Frank stuff is the most interesting stuff in this
Speaker 1: season for me. Oh, no question, And then I thought
Speaker 1: they could have really gone a lot farther with it.
Speaker 1: But this conversation on the rooftop, I think for me
Speaker 1: is the highlight of season two.
Speaker 3: Oh, I agree, And it's the one that feels most
Speaker 3: like you're reading a comic. It takes directly from the comics.
Speaker 3: It looks beautiful. Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1: Meanwhile, someone else has arrived back in town. It is
Speaker 1: Matt's college girlfriend, Electronacchios. She's a boy. Does she smell great,
Speaker 1: just like she did back in the college days. We
Speaker 1: get the flashback of the college days where that's another Honestly,
Speaker 1: another highlight for me is like they nailed the chemistry,
Speaker 1: which is two rich girl, blue collar guy, both like
Speaker 1: intense physical chemistry. They both shouldn't be with each other,
Speaker 1: and they and that is what makes them want to
Speaker 1: be with each other is like they both shouldn't be
Speaker 1: doing this, and it is messy, it is chaotic, and
Speaker 1: it is intensely physical.
Speaker 3: Also, I love that she she turns up in Matt's
Speaker 3: apartment just thought to him and Karen have had like
Speaker 3: a romantic moment and they're like will they won't they?
Speaker 3: And then Electra's there and it's like won't they? Because
Speaker 3: Electra is here and she is a complex, holy imagined
Speaker 3: woman unlike Carenpage in this.
Speaker 1: Series sadly, sadly said, will get more sadly. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: Elektra is back in town and she's got this kind
Speaker 1: of like issue with various Japanese shell companies.
Speaker 3: Including a rock Song Corporation.
Speaker 1: Including rocks On Corporation. She's Matt's help with this. Also,
Speaker 1: The Hand, the Assassin offshoot arm of the Yakuza Japanese
Speaker 1: mafia Association, is after Electra four reasons, which we will
Speaker 1: discover why. Because they're obsessed with Black Sky, as we
Speaker 1: saw from season one of Daredevil, a kind of prophesied
Speaker 1: super clan leader for the Hand and the Yakuza, and
Speaker 1: they believe that Electra is Black Stock and she's not
Speaker 1: like super interested in being this person. So that is
Speaker 1: obviously a problem. Meanwhile, Frank Castle is still out there murdering, murdering, murdering, murdering.
Speaker 1: Things escalate. Elektra and Matt fight the Hand. She dies
Speaker 1: protecting Matt in an epic battle on the rooftop. Later,
Speaker 1: there's gonna be a funeral and everything. Frank Castle shows
Speaker 1: up just when things look like it's gonna be they're
Speaker 1: gonna go really bad for Matt, and he shoots various
Speaker 1: hand assassins so Matt doesn't become a killer in a
Speaker 1: moment that actually like, I was surprised at how yeah
Speaker 1: I was.
Speaker 3: I know that's the one thing they get you. This
Speaker 3: man is shooting like multiple.
Speaker 1: I got your bat Castle. Then later goes off and
Speaker 1: finds the person responsible for killing a family, and he
Speaker 1: kills the guy who burns out his house. Matt tells
Speaker 1: Karen that he is Daredevil. He shows her the mask
Speaker 1: and everything. She is shocked, and then in kind of
Speaker 1: a stinger, we see that deep down in some tunnel
Speaker 1: somewhere under Manhattan, the Hand is all crowded around a
Speaker 1: coffin with some writing on it. They open the coffin
Speaker 1: and guess who's inside. Electra Oh oh, what could ever
Speaker 1: happened there? I wonder if there's a famous story arc
Speaker 1: we could look. Let's talk about the Karen Page problem,
Speaker 1: which I think is very pressing in season two.
Speaker 3: In season two, I think it is the most pressing
Speaker 3: because it feels to me it's the oneickest part of
Speaker 3: the season.
Speaker 1: The Karen Page scenes are just throwaways. They should be better,
Speaker 1: but they're not.
Speaker 3: She doesn't exist outside of a man, and that the
Speaker 3: problem is that was the same in season one, but
Speaker 3: she actually killed that man, ben Uric and Uric and
Speaker 3: then becomes benyurretta Benic basically single white females him and
Speaker 3: I hate that choice that they made. I think that
Speaker 3: what they were trying to do with season one and
Speaker 3: season two Karen Page is emulate the Karen Page from
Speaker 3: the Born Again Comics, who, as we talked about, opens
Speaker 3: the comics as basically an unreliable friend, somebody who will
Speaker 3: sell Matt out, somebody who will sell people out. I
Speaker 3: think they wanted to have that duality and complexity. But
Speaker 3: Karen grows in that comic. I can't believe I once
Speaker 3: again here giving credit to Frank Miller, but like in
Speaker 3: this story, she doesn't really have that growth.
Speaker 1: She has very static, she never has the full picture.
Speaker 3: She never has agency, She's never making truly informed decisions,
Speaker 3: and it's I really want this to be rectified in
Speaker 3: the new season because I will. I think that that
Speaker 3: Deborah am Will as Karen Page is some of the
Speaker 3: best casting in the MCU. I think she does her
Speaker 3: best with what she yes. I think her the way
Speaker 3: that her and Matt have this kind of childlike first
Speaker 3: love chemistry is so accurate. She represents to Matt a
Speaker 3: different kind of life, an honest life. But she should
Speaker 3: be more than just what she represents to men. And
Speaker 3: her relationship with Frank castleheads very confusing. Her relationship with
Speaker 3: Matt is Confusingly, it.
Speaker 1: Felt like they were trying to set up almost like
Speaker 1: a romance or something of a protective and that never
Speaker 1: and then they were like, wait a second, this is crazy,
Speaker 1: but let's salvage some of it. Like it was just
Speaker 1: it didn't work. The Karen Paige stuff just didn't work
Speaker 1: in season two. And thus it feels like this is
Speaker 1: the season when we have said in our previous coverage
Speaker 1: that there's a lot of fat on the bone here
Speaker 1: and not enough meat. This is one of those things
Speaker 1: they could have made.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they could have, and especially because the stuff that
Speaker 3: is good, it really sings and you just kind of wish.
Speaker 3: I think that after having such a like smash it
Speaker 3: first season, they probably went into this without necessarily getting
Speaker 3: a lot of notes. I know Disney probably does give
Speaker 3: you a lot of notes, or Netflix give you a
Speaker 3: lot of notes. So I'm not taking away the amount
Speaker 3: of work that was done on notes, because notes suck
Speaker 3: and are hard, but they do make the show better.
Speaker 3: But I feel like in this they were given kind
Speaker 3: of do what you want, because it very much feels
Speaker 3: like there are bloated moments or there are choices that
Speaker 3: they make here where they could have been streamlining. Like
Speaker 3: them the Dead Devil and Electra stuff is so good,
Speaker 3: and that's such a prime part of the.
Speaker 1: Character energy there.
Speaker 3: It's so important to both of them, and also very
Speaker 3: interesting to bring back Stick and kind of have this
Speaker 3: reveal that they were almost like the two naughty children
Speaker 3: he was training to be murderers. Very interesting, complex stuff there.
Speaker 3: I do think that the Punisher casting is absolutely fantastic.
Speaker 3: I know he'd get it, he's great, But I also
Speaker 3: think there is something left wanting in a version of
Speaker 3: Punisher that is a modern daverse the Punisher that kind
Speaker 3: of just presents him as a different option to dead
Speaker 3: evil without really having more of a commentary on the
Speaker 3: on the way he does it, like going around in
Speaker 3: a bulletproofess just shooting people up in America. That's a
Speaker 3: very horrible thing to think about. It happens all the time,
Speaker 3: and you can't really be making the same movie you
Speaker 3: were making before with the eighties Punisher or Punisher war
Speaker 3: Zone or whatever version you were making, which, by the way, guys,
Speaker 3: there are many Punisher movies and you will find a
Speaker 3: favorite because there are some pretty yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's season two.
Speaker 3: It's it's it's good, but it's not great.
Speaker 1: It's yes, that is that is absolutely the case. The
Speaker 1: good Punisher movie, by the way, is two thousand and
Speaker 1: four's The Punisher. Yes, Thomas Jane and John.
Speaker 3: For I am actually good movie, actually good movie. And
Speaker 3: also the opening of that movie where they do like
Speaker 3: the dramatic like how his family was killed and they're
Speaker 3: like all wearing like white. It's so ridiculous and I
Speaker 3: love it. Super campy.
Speaker 1: The big Russian in the in the apartment is like
Speaker 1: so good and really.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and there are a lot of Punisher war Zone
Speaker 3: fans out there who loved that movie. Also one of
Speaker 3: the first superhero movies directed by a woman.
Speaker 1: Listen Jim Lee drawing Punisher. I'm in. I was a
Speaker 1: big Punisher Warzone fan. Shots to my microchip heads back
Speaker 1: in the day.
Speaker 3: Okay, oh, microchip is in the MCU baby. I think
Speaker 3: we got a microchip in this.
Speaker 1: So yeah, very excited. Okay, So we go from season
Speaker 1: two of Daredevil two the Defenders. That's right, we got
Speaker 1: to talk about it.
Speaker 3: Just what you wanted. You all wanted to hear this.
Speaker 1: We have to talk about it a little bit. Okay.
Speaker 3: You think I'm in a Channel's defender, Jason is a
Speaker 3: Defender's Defender.
Speaker 1: I think some of it works. Okay, So anyway, we'll
Speaker 1: keep it very brief. Isn't dead shocker? She's been resurrected
Speaker 1: by the hand oh uh? You know want her for
Speaker 1: Black Sky the Black Sky roll. And also now that
Speaker 1: she's resurrected, she's kind of like mind wiped.
Speaker 3: I feel like, can she be back Sky if they
Speaker 3: just mind wiped her? That was always annoying to me.
Speaker 3: I was like, are you completely the actual elect list
Speaker 3: but anyway, the Hand, they're a mess that you want
Speaker 3: to talk about, not fully fleshed out.
Speaker 1: The Hand is not fully fleshed out. The Hand as
Speaker 1: a antagonist force doesn't work for me too, Anonymous, What
Speaker 1: do they care about? They're just like bad guys. It's
Speaker 1: also like a holdover from like eighties japan Japanophobia, and
Speaker 1: it just doesn't it doesn't work.
Speaker 3: It's all hilarious because in the Ninja Tas as you
Speaker 3: guys know, the villains are called the Foot and they
Speaker 3: were a parody of the Hand, so the Hand immediately
Speaker 3: feels like a parody. Anyway, in a much much maligned
Speaker 3: Elektra movie, there is actually a really interesting version of
Speaker 3: the Hand with like supernatural kind of hand members and
Speaker 3: there's a guy who's come alive off his body. It's
Speaker 3: still not great, but it's definitely more interesting than just
Speaker 3: like that anonymous Ninjas. You can be killed?
Speaker 1: Yes, okay, So Matt as Daredevil teams up with all
Speaker 1: your favorite street level heroes from the Flash MCU, including
Speaker 1: Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, and Danny Rand in order to
Speaker 1: stop the Hand and Electra. The relationship is still complicated.
Speaker 1: The defenders have a big fight with the Hand in
Speaker 1: the hands like magic fortress built over a dragon skeleton,
Speaker 1: and at the end they defeat the Hand, but Matt
Speaker 1: like dies maybe and the building collapses on him. And
Speaker 1: that is why in season three, the opening of season
Speaker 1: three of Daredevil, Matt is washing up out of a sewer.
Speaker 1: Because some of you who did not watch Defenders but
Speaker 1: did watch season three of Daredevil, or some of you
Speaker 1: who are like, let me do a Daredevil rewatch, You'll
Speaker 1: get to season three and Matt will wash up out
Speaker 1: of a sewer and you'll be like, what the fuck
Speaker 1: is this?
Speaker 3: Why is and who is this? Who is this nun?
Speaker 1: That's maxim that Matt. So yeah, so Matt, he washes
Speaker 1: up out of a sewer and he's tended to by
Speaker 1: a nun named Maggie, who is his mom. You know
Speaker 1: that from the comics and you know that from our
Speaker 1: previous Daredevil coverage and our Daredevil Born Again club. So
Speaker 1: Matt at the opening of season three of Daredevil is
Speaker 1: like angry, depressed, disillusioned, and he's done with the Daredevil costume.
Speaker 1: He's not doing this stuff anymore, but he still is
Speaker 1: out going out into the streets. But he's wearing his
Speaker 1: early season one costume, which is just like the black shirt,
Speaker 1: Black Pill and the Little Black. He's basically dressed as
Speaker 1: a waiter or a bartender, but it's he's like he's
Speaker 1: like a kid's roaring of a ninja.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but he also could be you know, if he
Speaker 3: needs to take that half and just like look like
Speaker 3: he's you know, serving kandapace, he could also do it.
Speaker 1: That's right. Fisk meanwhile is behind bars, but he is
Speaker 1: making moves. He's cutting a deal. He cuts a deal
Speaker 1: with the government where he's providing information on former gang associates,
Speaker 1: dirty Teitians, dirty judges, including the Albanian mob who get
Speaker 1: really mad at him. So when he is being transported
Speaker 1: by the FBI to the beautiful penthouse that they are
Speaker 1: going to put him up in, you know that he
Speaker 1: is becoming such a huge snitch.
Speaker 3: This is so good that, like, you know what snitches
Speaker 3: get in the Marvel universe.
Speaker 1: A sick, beautiful, beautiful penhouse, gorgeous.
Speaker 3: Viewty oh blah, we love it. I love Wilson Fists
Speaker 3: so much. I love Incindinofrio, I love how I just
Speaker 3: instantly believe all of his schemes are true, Like, this
Speaker 3: is the most unrealistic thing in the world. Obviously, we
Speaker 3: know rich people do get preferential treatment, but this is
Speaker 3: so comic Bookie, Oh yeah, it.
Speaker 1: Does seem like I gotta say, it does seem like criminal.
Speaker 1: Rich people get away with everything. So they get away
Speaker 1: with everything.
Speaker 3: And I love that this season and I think we
Speaker 3: both agree that season three is like a return to
Speaker 3: form after season two. But like, I love how it
Speaker 3: opens and you're really in that classic comic book setup
Speaker 3: for the Devil for Spider Man, one of those things
Speaker 3: that you love to see with the street level hero.
Speaker 3: He is broken, he's nobody has his back, he's struggling,
Speaker 3: he's doing his best, he's he's out there, he's training,
Speaker 3: he's beating up the heavy bag, you know, and at
Speaker 3: the same time, his villain has more power than ever.
Speaker 3: It's such a good comic book set up, and it's
Speaker 3: so fun to watch with these two actors in specific,
Speaker 3: Charlie Cox and Vincent Deinofrio. I love you fantastic ten
Speaker 3: out of ten performances.
Speaker 1: So Wilson is being transported to his beautiful penthouse when
Speaker 1: his convoy is ambushed by the Albanian mob and They
Speaker 1: almost get Wilson, but a hard charging FBI agent named
Speaker 1: Ben dex Poindexter, who has unently accurate aim, catches Fisk's eye,
Speaker 1: and Fisk quickly gets to work corrupting this guy, which
Speaker 1: is not hard because I mean he's already yeah he's
Speaker 1: a psychopath, but begins trying to corrupt him in order
Speaker 1: to turn him into his personal assassin, Bull's Eye. Matt
Speaker 1: is in fully self destruct mode. He's refused, as we said,
Speaker 1: he's refusing to wear the suit. He's lost all faith
Speaker 1: in the in the system because he is seeing that
Speaker 1: Wilson is like succeeding, He's like doing all this stuff
Speaker 1: and playing the government like a fiddle. So he starts
Speaker 1: investigating Fisk and what Fisk is up to. This leads
Speaker 1: him into a Riker's Island. He goes undercover into Rikers
Speaker 1: Island to go talk to some of the Albanian gang
Speaker 1: members who are a prison there, and this turns into
Speaker 1: what I believe to be one of the best action
Speaker 1: scenes in television or movie.
Speaker 3: Good It's so good.
Speaker 1: Oh he gets Basically, Fisk tries to assassinate Matt, knowing
Speaker 1: that Matt is jupiplant, right, He gets Mat. He like
Speaker 1: maneuvers Matt into the like the nurse's office, where he's
Speaker 1: then gonna have this fake nurse like inject him with stuff.
Speaker 1: And this turns into a eleven minute fake one shot
Speaker 1: like prison feels like one shot. It feels like a
Speaker 1: one shot. The editing is really really good.
Speaker 3: This is such a good scene.
Speaker 1: I oh my god.
Speaker 3: I feel like it is forgotten in the annals of
Speaker 3: great MCU action scenes. I do think as well that
Speaker 3: though we've always talked and fans have always talked, and
Speaker 3: critics have always talked about how good the action wasn't
Speaker 3: these shows. I think that bringing this into the canon
Speaker 3: of the MCU is gonna hopefully make them reconsider the
Speaker 3: way that they shoot action because we often don't get
Speaker 3: this unbelievable You're gonna have the leg break. It does
Speaker 3: feel like that. Also, Yeah, let Timo Tanto or Garrett
Speaker 3: Evans make a fucking Marvel movie please, because I love
Speaker 3: the raid. I love the Night Comes for us. We
Speaker 3: need that kind of stuff. But yeah, this sequence is
Speaker 3: so unreal. When I'm watching it for the pod, I'm
Speaker 3: feeling that same like goosebumps come up. Yes, you know
Speaker 3: when this begins because I know what's gonna happen, and
Speaker 3: it's so brilliantly done. And also I love the way
Speaker 3: that Matt It doesn't just show Matt's physical prowess, but
Speaker 3: it shows his intelligence as a de lawyer. He's a
Speaker 3: deal maker, he knows how to talk to people. He
Speaker 3: comes and it shows that like he's a real blue
Speaker 3: collar guy like Fisk is Fisc they know he'll go
Speaker 3: back on it, but Matt can have a real conversation
Speaker 3: with these people, and yeah, ma'n, what what a sequence.
Speaker 3: So it just I just think that this this season
Speaker 3: gets everything right in terms of that, Yeah, they're overdone stories,
Speaker 3: but the idea of like what makes a hero and
Speaker 3: also like these classic notions that it would take the MCU,
Speaker 3: you know, years to do in Spider Man and No
Speaker 3: Way Home and stuff, but like the notion of like,
Speaker 3: is is dead evil a bad guy? And can the
Speaker 3: hero turn people on dead evil? And that's what the
Speaker 3: kind of bulk of the rest of the show becomes about.
Speaker 1: So Matt, in the middle of this prison riot, meets
Speaker 1: with you know, meets, he fights his way by like
Speaker 1: tooth and nail to the Albanian mob, shot collar and
Speaker 1: strikes this deal whereby they will help Man escape if
Speaker 1: Matt helps them get revenge on Wilson Fisk. So Matt
Speaker 1: manages to escape, and again, what is this is episode
Speaker 1: four I believe. If you're not gonna watch, if you're.
Speaker 3: Not gonna rewatch, just go through and just watch this scene.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you're not gonna rewatch the whole thing in
Speaker 1: order to get ready for board again, just watch some
Speaker 1: of the actions scene season two, the Hallway fight, and
Speaker 1: I believe episode three with the gang with the Bikers,
Speaker 1: and and episode four of season three, the eleven minute
Speaker 1: prison escape is I think also.
Speaker 3: Somebody will have probably done a super cap of Yeah,
Speaker 3: that's got to be that somewhere.
Speaker 1: Meanwhile, Fisk outside has gives Poindexter Decks a fake Daredevil.
Speaker 1: Sooners like just go crazy, just go crazy, just do
Speaker 1: your thing.
Speaker 3: He's like, just do it, man, Yeah, may everyone hate you,
Speaker 3: kill people?
Speaker 1: Yeah, this do whatever you gotta do. New York quickly
Speaker 1: turns on Daredevil and now Matt has to fight this
Speaker 1: psycho version of himself.
Speaker 3: Fisk was also like he did try and kill Matt
Speaker 3: after that, Like he drives Matt off the fucking bridge
Speaker 3: like an then he's like, oh, I hope that he
Speaker 3: dies in this submached taxi. He doesn't die, And then
Speaker 3: I love this.
Speaker 1: In another Born Again, another Born Again reference by the way,
Speaker 1: and then and then I love.
Speaker 3: The way that he's like, Okay, what worked for me
Speaker 3: before he's like snitching, I'm gonna tell the FBI that
Speaker 3: Matt Murdoch is like a fucking fixer. And it's like
Speaker 3: so good to see this absolute character assassination of Matt,
Speaker 3: who is already really his lowest. But that's what we
Speaker 3: love to see. We love to see the good boys
Speaker 3: get beaten down and then they're gonna fight their way
Speaker 3: back up. But yeah, I have to say, now we're
Speaker 3: talking about Poindexter Dex bulls Eye. I just love this
Speaker 3: version of him so much, saying he's one of the
Speaker 3: absolute best editions played by Wilson beth Or. He's very
Speaker 3: much scary real, he's so scary. He brings to life
Speaker 3: some of the scariest Bullseye comic stuff that is just
Speaker 3: so horrific and nightmare and this kind of Yeah, he
Speaker 3: was created by Marve Wolfman and John Remy a senior
Speaker 3: and was kind of always kind of scary, but the
Speaker 3: David Ahart era stuff where it's kind of like bulls
Speaker 3: Eye understands what fucks with Matt.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he does, he knows, he knows the emotional pressure points, yes.
Speaker 3: And also the physical ones, like in in Debt of
Speaker 3: five hundred. I think about this page a lot. He
Speaker 3: he sets off like little firecrackers fire and just like
Speaker 3: devastates Matt and he does suddenly can't tell anything that's
Speaker 3: going on. And there's also some really great Bullseye stuff
Speaker 3: in the comics where you really get to see that
Speaker 3: he is like a true psychopath, like he takes down
Speaker 3: a whole He'll sit with a whole family dinner and
Speaker 3: talk to the whole family kind of before he kills them.
Speaker 3: He's a real Hannibal Lecter esque kind of nightmare serial killer.
Speaker 3: And I think that they really sold that here. But
Speaker 3: you know what else is crazy about this season that
Speaker 3: I always forget, but then when I was rewatching it
Speaker 3: absolutely happened to me again. I feel for Ben. I
Speaker 3: feel for this guy because he is being manipulated by Kingpin,
Speaker 3: who knows that he is a psychopath, but he doesn't
Speaker 3: say to him like, oh, go get therapy, like go
Speaker 3: help your life. He's make that worse. He's like, I'm
Speaker 3: not gonna worp you to the point where you don't
Speaker 3: even know like who you are anymore, Like he starts
Speaker 3: to believe he is this dead Levil and oh man,
Speaker 3: this stuff is just this is like prime MCU, prime Netflix,
Speaker 3: Prestige Television, and yeah, just like what what what a performance.
Speaker 3: I'm so glad he's coming back in the New and
Speaker 3: Born again because I think it would have been an
Speaker 3: absolute miss to not have him come back.
Speaker 1: So everything comes to ahead with Matt facing off against
Speaker 1: Wilson in a in their second round physical confrontation after
Speaker 1: season one, Matt beats the Kingpin, forces him to confess,
Speaker 1: and Fisk agrees, basically agrees to go back to jail,
Speaker 1: in part because I can't Vanessa. He can't. Vanessa is
Speaker 1: heavily implicated. A lot of Season three hinges on the
Speaker 1: fact that Matt knows that Vanessa was involved in this stuff,
Speaker 1: and then Wilson can't let her face any consequences at all.
Speaker 1: That's why he's like, he's a wife guy. Yeah, he's
Speaker 1: a big time wife guy. That's why he's become such
Speaker 1: a massive snitch. And so finally faced with the possibility
Speaker 1: that Vanessa could go to jail as well. Fisk confesses
Speaker 1: to everything is like, I'll go to jail, and of course,
Speaker 1: as we know, every time it happens, he always does this,
Speaker 1: and as we know, Wilson stays behind bars for good.
Speaker 3: This happen any problems never ap pis in any other
Speaker 3: MCU shows. Definitely not scheming ap playing. What's Vanessa up to? Oh,
Speaker 3: she's definitely not doing anything, Baddie the just you know,
Speaker 3: she's just a simple just a simple art dealer and philanthropist,
Speaker 3: you know, no connections to the mob. Nothing else is
Speaker 3: gonna happen. No, Obviously we're covering this for a reason
Speaker 3: that both coming out and I can't wait to see
Speaker 3: what they get up to.
Speaker 1: So that is the end of the excellent season three
Speaker 1: of Daredevil, which first aired on Netflix. You can now
Speaker 1: find it on Disney Plus. Let's take a quick break
Speaker 1: here and go to our thoughts and predictions and we're back. Okay,
Speaker 1: So we've talked previously. We talked on our season one recap,
Speaker 1: and we talked on our Boarding End book Club coverage
Speaker 1: about how much Daredevil board again really is in season one,
Speaker 1: two and three of Diardo well, and I think honestly,
Speaker 1: season three might have the most of references and scenes
Speaker 1: pulled directly from the comics.
Speaker 3: Definitely, and also the notion of Fisk's plan in Born Again,
Speaker 3: which is this kind of to destroy that, to destroy
Speaker 3: his reputation, to destroy his standing with his friends, to
Speaker 3: make it so he feels like he has nobody. We
Speaker 3: really start season three in that space, and then from
Speaker 3: there on out it's about the battle between the two
Speaker 3: of them. I think ironically, the one thing that we
Speaker 3: don't really get in season three that was so good
Speaker 3: about this is I man, when I was like first
Speaker 3: starting my journalism career and I was like I'd worked
Speaker 3: in the comic shop and I'd read these books for
Speaker 3: a long time, I would always be like just so
Speaker 3: mad at all these guys who wrote these books where
Speaker 3: the women don't have these great, you know, roles, or
Speaker 3: they're kind of like written down. But it's funny because now,
Speaker 3: obviously we are living in a space where we have
Speaker 3: access to so many fantastic com by so many different people.
Speaker 3: That really changed that. And uh, it's kind of funny
Speaker 3: because looking back at it, I really was kind of
Speaker 3: surprised by how much I liked Born Again, and also
Speaker 3: by the fact that at the end Karen actually gets
Speaker 3: a happy ending. This isn't a book where a sex
Speaker 3: worker dies. This isn't a book where a drag addict dies,
Speaker 3: you know. And I think I would have really actually
Speaker 3: liked to have seen more of that kind of walking
Speaker 3: off into the sunset, you know, a little bit more
Speaker 3: of that real hopefulness. And I think it's it's kind
Speaker 3: of funny that what was really taken from Born Again
Speaker 3: was that darkness, you know. So I'm interested. I think
Speaker 3: that from what we've seen so far, and from the
Speaker 3: fact that we know spoilers if you haven't watched Echo
Speaker 3: or you know Hawkeye, or you haven't been keeping up
Speaker 3: with the news but or watched the trailers, so I
Speaker 3: muffs on if you want to go and completely blind.
Speaker 3: But we know that Wilson fit is going to be
Speaker 3: the mayor. We know that Dead Evil and him are
Speaker 3: going to come to some kind of you know, pack
Speaker 3: to maybe work together and see what's happening in the city.
Speaker 3: So I think with all the characters that are returning,
Speaker 3: I don't think there's gonna actually be a lot of
Speaker 3: Born Again in Dead Evil. Born Again I think they
Speaker 3: went for the title because it makes sense they're reintroducing
Speaker 3: him into the MCU. But what is the kind of
Speaker 3: what's the status quo gonna be? We do know that
Speaker 3: he will have a new love interest who is pulled
Speaker 3: from the comics, so I'm interested to see. I do
Speaker 3: hope the rumors about Electra coming back were true as well,
Speaker 3: because I think, why not just throw everyone in there.
Speaker 3: But I do think that it's gonna be one of
Speaker 3: the longest seasons that Disney has done. I think it's
Speaker 3: gonna be very character focused, but the fact that they're
Speaker 3: bringing in Punisher, maybe Electra Vanessa's back, Bullseyes back, there's
Speaker 3: not gonna be a lot of time to be doing
Speaker 3: like very deep character explorations. I feel like this is
Speaker 3: going to be more of like a best of how
Speaker 3: do you reintroduce these characters into this world. I'm very
Speaker 3: interested to see what they do with Punished. We also
Speaker 3: got the news recently that Punisher was going to have
Speaker 3: his own kind of Marvel special, which I think could
Speaker 3: really do a great job of recontextualizing him. I mean,
Speaker 3: especially after how fantastic Werewolf by Night was. So Yeah,
Speaker 3: I'm interested to see how much Born Again is in there,
Speaker 3: But also when we already have so many great moments
Speaker 3: in these shows, I don't necessarily know that we need
Speaker 3: to hit those, and we definitely don't need, you know,
Speaker 3: Karen Page being a drug addict, unless they're going to
Speaker 3: do something really thoughtful with it and interesting and kind
Speaker 3: of explore addiction. But again, I don't know if they
Speaker 3: have the space to do that when they're bringing back
Speaker 3: so many characters and basically reintroducing these heroes in a
Speaker 3: way that's going to canonize them but also tell us
Speaker 3: what definitely isn't canon from these other shows.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that, you know, it's interesting. As we've
Speaker 1: talked about before, there's so much good Daredevil. Kingpin does
Speaker 1: become Mayor in the comics during the Trial Seel Run.
Speaker 3: Which is widely seen as one of the great great
Speaker 3: friends of that evil, and so I.
Speaker 1: Wonder if they don't combine some of like the Wade
Speaker 1: and Sewel runs and make it so. I agree with
Speaker 1: you that I think the trailer certainly suggests that Kingpin
Speaker 1: and Matt come to some sort of agreement where they're like, listen,
Speaker 1: we won't let's not attack each other because whatever there's
Speaker 1: some okay.
Speaker 3: Lawful evil, lawful good coming together.
Speaker 1: You know, there's something else out there, but of course
Speaker 1: they must come to a confrontation. I wonder if we
Speaker 1: see something like when Matt essentially becomes like there's a
Speaker 1: there's an arc in which Matt doesn't become the crime
Speaker 1: boss of New York, but he basically like beats all
Speaker 1: of the gangs into submission and he's like, Okay, you're
Speaker 1: going to take orders from me now like normal violence.
Speaker 3: Wonder it's interesting almost like a reversal where Kingpin is
Speaker 3: keeping things lawful on a big scale and Matt is
Speaker 3: keeping things lawful on your more like underground crime scale.
Speaker 3: That would be very interesting to see.
Speaker 1: And then I do wonder, and then I feel like
Speaker 1: it simply must go to a place where eventually, as
Speaker 1: Mayor Wilson Fisk is like, we've all out war on
Speaker 1: crime and the number one crime figure in New York
Speaker 1: is Dareduble and.
Speaker 3: We know exactly that's definitely what it's got to be.
Speaker 3: And also, once again one of mine and Jason's favorite
Speaker 3: topics that we always return to, how do you set
Speaker 3: up world where mutants I hated and feared in the
Speaker 3: MCU where heroes are generally celebrated. Well, actually, the Netflix
Speaker 3: series is do a good job of maybe establishing a
Speaker 3: world where it's easy for people to turn on heroes.
Speaker 3: We've seen the world turn on Spider Man in the
Speaker 3: MCU because of Mysterio, but this could be a much
Speaker 3: more definitive way of doing it, especially if it's a law.
Speaker 3: If he brings in legislation New York bands, you know,
Speaker 3: massed vigilantes York. Look at the Punisher, look at Dad Evil,
Speaker 3: look at Bullseye, who I'm definitely going to claim in
Speaker 3: this case is a mass vigilante rather than a serial killer.
Speaker 3: Suddenly you have a situation where maybe people aren't as
Speaker 3: friendly towards those heroes, especially if you think about it
Speaker 3: in the context of the fact that the president of
Speaker 3: the MCU was just revealed as a hulk. You know,
Speaker 3: that could definitely be a space. I really like that call.
Speaker 3: I think I think you're on a good track with that. Okay, Jason,
Speaker 3: this is a hard question because there are so many
Speaker 3: Marvel TV series now, But where does this rank for you?
Speaker 3: Jen if you put all three seasons together, where does
Speaker 3: this rank on your list of best MCU or Marvel
Speaker 3: inspired TV.
Speaker 1: It might be the best. It might be. I think
Speaker 1: it's it might be the best, and I think it's
Speaker 1: certainly top three, even top two. Like you know, it
Speaker 1: tastes vary, of course, but I think in terms of
Speaker 1: it is of course very uneven. But I as all
Speaker 1: the Marvel TV stuff has been I don't think that
Speaker 1: there's a perfect in live action like X Men ninety
Speaker 1: seven side pretty much. Yeah, I don't think that there's
Speaker 1: been a perfect Marvel TV series, but I think the
Speaker 1: highs are really really high, and I think the bar
Speaker 1: that it sets for action yeah, is something that stands
Speaker 1: on its own as a real achievement in television storytelling
Speaker 1: for Marvel. And if they can combine all those things
Speaker 1: Inborn Again, which the early reviews seem to suggest that
Speaker 1: they have.
Speaker 3: Yes, they did have the two episode premiere recently in
Speaker 3: New York, of course, and so far the responses are
Speaker 3: that it's good. It manages to meld those things. Obviously,
Speaker 3: we know early responses are often skewed positive, but I
Speaker 3: did see a lot of cool people at that premiere,
Speaker 3: and I believe that they probably have that Simceles stuff
Speaker 3: that they love to us. So I'm feeling positive, I
Speaker 3: would say I agree. I think for me, I do
Speaker 3: think Wondervision is still my top because I think it
Speaker 3: because it's so much, so much shorter.
Speaker 1: I really feel like I don't think WandaVision is the
Speaker 1: one that, like, if you don't like Marvel, you can
Speaker 1: watch it exactly.
Speaker 3: And also it's it's it's so unique, it's so interesting.
Speaker 3: But I do think that quality wise, if we're talking
Speaker 3: only live action, Dead Devil's got to be next, even
Speaker 3: with all of its issues. I think it's really funny
Speaker 3: because it doesn't in a way it feels like it
Speaker 3: was almost ten years ago, but it also feels like
Speaker 3: it definitely wasn't almost ten years ago, or it was.
Speaker 3: I think De Devil came out in twenty fourteen, so
Speaker 3: it was eleven years ago. Maybe truly is yeah, but
Speaker 3: but at the same time, like it's so influential it's
Speaker 3: kind of hard to even sum it up. From the
Speaker 3: title sequence that kind of changed how Prestige TV was
Speaker 3: doing title sequences to the action to the fact that
Speaker 3: it may it was very much the Watchman of Superhero TV,
Speaker 3: where it was kind of this like Biff Bang Pal
Speaker 3: Now Superhero TV isn't for kids. It's prestige, it's violent,
Speaker 3: you know, So I'm really interested to see if they
Speaker 3: can keep that up. So far, as you know, I'm
Speaker 3: an Echo fan, and I actually love what they've done
Speaker 3: with Wilson Fisk so far. I love the kind of
Speaker 3: acceleration of his super heroic powers, which we definitely do
Speaker 3: get touches of in the Netflix series in a way
Speaker 3: that I hadn't really remembered, Like he's often throwing people
Speaker 3: through doors and doing things that kind of hint to that.
Speaker 3: I really like how they have built in the father
Speaker 3: daughter relationship with Echo, whether we're going to see her again,
Speaker 3: whether we're going to see Shee Hulk, even though I
Speaker 3: loved that relationship we had with Matt. I think I'll
Speaker 3: be fine if they don't come in because those shows
Speaker 3: still exist. But I love what they've done with Wilson Fisk.
Speaker 3: I feel like they understand how to balance and use
Speaker 3: the MCU. Like in the MCU, it feels believable that
Speaker 3: Wilson Fisk could be shot in the head and still survive,
Speaker 3: right because the MCU is this superheroic blockbust that anything
Speaker 3: can happen. Well in the more grounded dead of a
Speaker 3: series that would seem a little bit harder to play.
Speaker 3: So I think they understand what the MCU kind of
Speaker 3: gives them storytelling wise, and I'm excited to see how
Speaker 3: the rest of the characters kind of fall into that.
Speaker 3: Also just feels crazy to me that we're so close
Speaker 3: to this show coming out like this year. It's really
Speaker 3: a zooming past.
Speaker 1: Daredevil Born Again premieeres March fourth on Disney Plus, and
Speaker 1: of course we will be covering it on Wednesday. Our
Speaker 1: recap of sevenths two o seven will will hit your
Speaker 1: ear holes. And then Thursday, We're Born Again as the
Speaker 1: new Dark Devil series debuts with two episodes episodes one
Speaker 1: and two March fourth, Disney Plus and come back on Saturday,
Speaker 1: where we're going to recap the week's news. That said,
Speaker 1: for this episode, thanks for let's.
Speaker 3: Me Bye Red, Bye see you, Little Red, See you later.
Speaker 1: Red x ray Vision is hosted by Jason Sepsion and
Speaker 1: Rosie Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 3: Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 1: Our supervising producer is Abu Zafar.
Speaker 3: Our producers are Common Laurent Dean, Jonathan.
Speaker 1: And Bay wag Our theme song is by Brian Vasquez,
Speaker 1: with alternate theme songs by Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 3: Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman and
Speaker 3: Heidi our discord moderator,