WEBVTT - From Patented: Inventing the Wheeled Suitcase 0:00:15.316 --> 0:00:20.636 Pushkin. Hey, it's Jacob Goldstein and I've got a bonus 0:00:20.676 --> 0:00:24.036 episode for you today. It is about the surprisingly intriguing 0:00:24.076 --> 0:00:28.036 story of the invention of the wheeled suitcase. It's from 0:00:28.076 --> 0:00:32.316 the podcast Patented History of Inventions. I really enjoyed it, 0:00:32.396 --> 0:00:34.636 and I hope you like it too, So it's kind 0:00:34.636 --> 0:00:37.556 of like an example of how stupid we are sometimes 0:00:37.596 --> 0:00:39.916 when it comes to innovation, that we managed to put 0:00:39.996 --> 0:00:42.876 two men on the moon before we put wheels on suitcases. 0:00:50.516 --> 0:00:54.636 Sometimes a product comes along and you can't help but think, 0:00:55.036 --> 0:00:57.076 how did it take so long for someone to come 0:00:57.156 --> 0:01:00.596 up with that? A prime example, it wasn't until nineteen 0:01:00.636 --> 0:01:05.036 seventy two that Bernard D. Sado patented the first wheel suitcase. 0:01:05.476 --> 0:01:07.876 And this is centuries, of course after the invention of 0:01:07.916 --> 0:01:12.116 the wheel deck aid, since luggage had become an everyday item, 0:01:12.196 --> 0:01:15.316 it just seems so obvious. The story of the rolling 0:01:15.356 --> 0:01:19.316 suitcase has become somewhat of a favorite anecdote for people 0:01:19.316 --> 0:01:21.996 like me to wheel out when trying to inject some 0:01:22.156 --> 0:01:26.756 hoobrist into conversations about invention and innovation. Sometimes the most 0:01:26.836 --> 0:01:30.076 obvious ideas simply elude us. And whilst this is a 0:01:30.076 --> 0:01:32.476 good lesson for us all. I also think that this 0:01:32.676 --> 0:01:37.756 framing misses some key context. Yes, the technology existed, but 0:01:38.516 --> 0:01:42.676 the need for easily movable luggage didn't exist much before 0:01:42.676 --> 0:01:46.516 the disappearance of porters from our trained stations and the 0:01:46.636 --> 0:01:50.316 dawn of an age of affordable mass tourism. Aren't those 0:01:50.396 --> 0:01:54.356 giant airports with their smooth flows just calling out for wheels? 0:01:55.076 --> 0:01:58.996 But today's guest, Katrine Marsal, author of the book Mothers 0:01:59.076 --> 0:02:02.356 of Invention, suggests that there's an even bigger gap in 0:02:02.396 --> 0:02:06.356 this story. Her research suggests there were social blind spots 0:02:06.396 --> 0:02:09.516 that prevented us from widely adopting wheeled luggage, something that 0:02:09.516 --> 0:02:13.716 she discovered existed long before its official invention date back 0:02:13.716 --> 0:02:17.356 in the nineteen seventies. I'm Dallas Campbell and this is 0:02:17.476 --> 0:02:42.916 patented History of Inventions, a podcast from History Hits. Welcome 0:02:42.956 --> 0:02:45.276 to the show, Katrine Musselle. Love you to have you here. 0:02:45.476 --> 0:02:51.076 Katrine of course, writer, speaker, economist, well, writer about economics, 0:02:51.196 --> 0:02:54.516 and author of the book Mothers of Invention. How good 0:02:54.516 --> 0:02:59.036 ideas get ignored in an economy bill for men? That's me, Yes, 0:02:59.116 --> 0:03:00.756 thank you, that is you, that is you. Well listen, 0:03:00.756 --> 0:03:02.516 Thanks for coming on. I've been really looking forward to 0:03:02.596 --> 0:03:05.956 this one because the story of the wheel suitcase, it's 0:03:06.036 --> 0:03:08.116 kind of one of those stories that always gets trotted 0:03:08.116 --> 0:03:11.956 out when anyone's talking innovation. Everyone's like, well, wheel suitcases, 0:03:11.996 --> 0:03:14.356 And we've had wheels for a billion years, and we've 0:03:14.356 --> 0:03:16.636 had suitcases for a billion years, And why did no 0:03:16.636 --> 0:03:19.636 one put wheels on a suitcase before nineteen seventy Well 0:03:19.676 --> 0:03:22.316 not exactly a billion years, but well, not exactly a 0:03:22.356 --> 0:03:25.036 billion years, but around about a billion years. So why 0:03:25.036 --> 0:03:27.876 don't we just talk about the kind of received story, 0:03:27.876 --> 0:03:29.836 the one that everyone trots out, and then we can 0:03:29.956 --> 0:03:33.356 drill down a little bit deeper into actually what's really 0:03:33.356 --> 0:03:37.156 going on behind this? Okay, sure, Well, so we've had 0:03:37.596 --> 0:03:41.396 wheels for five thousand years. Yeah, that's what I meant. 0:03:42.156 --> 0:03:46.636 I was exaggerating for effect. We've had wheels for five 0:03:46.636 --> 0:03:48.436 thousand years, and it's one of these you know, we 0:03:48.476 --> 0:03:51.236 think of it as, you know, the big invention that 0:03:51.436 --> 0:03:54.156 changed everything, kind of did I guess. I mean, they're 0:03:54.156 --> 0:03:57.796 pretty useful. Wheels did, but it took longer than you think, right, 0:03:57.996 --> 0:03:59.516 you know, you think that you know, we have this 0:03:59.676 --> 0:04:03.396 sort of cartoon idea of it that somebody just sort of, oh, 0:04:03.476 --> 0:04:06.916 let's have wheels, and then sort of everything had wheels immediately, 0:04:06.956 --> 0:04:10.196 and everybody realized and that's not really our innovation works. 0:04:10.236 --> 0:04:11.596 You know, you need to have a lot of other 0:04:11.636 --> 0:04:15.276 things for wheels to work, like roads and roads are helpful, 0:04:15.476 --> 0:04:17.916 Roads are helpful, Somebody like some kind of system for 0:04:18.116 --> 0:04:21.396 maintaining roads, axles, you know, there's there's a lot of 0:04:21.436 --> 0:04:25.916 things actually, But leaving that aside, the story of the 0:04:25.916 --> 0:04:28.636 wheel suitcase, the way it's normally told is that we've 0:04:28.636 --> 0:04:31.796 had wheels for five thousand years. We've applied this technology 0:04:31.836 --> 0:04:34.076 of the wheel to a lot of other things, you know, 0:04:34.156 --> 0:04:37.996 cars and bicycles and ferries wheels and hamster wheels, but 0:04:38.116 --> 0:04:42.076 not the suitcase. So we didn't get wheels on suitcases 0:04:42.196 --> 0:04:45.636 until nineteen seventy two. And that's how we normally tell 0:04:45.716 --> 0:04:48.196 this story. So it's kind of like an example of 0:04:48.276 --> 0:04:50.836 how stupid we are sometimes when it comes to innovation, 0:04:50.956 --> 0:04:53.076 that we managed to put two men on the moon 0:04:53.156 --> 0:04:56.356 before we put wheels on suitcases. And so the nineteen 0:04:56.436 --> 0:04:58.956 seventy two that was the pattern. So I think it 0:04:58.996 --> 0:05:00.556 was a couple of years before, wasn't I can't remember 0:05:00.556 --> 0:05:03.516 the guys that Bernard. Bernard say, yeah, that's idea. Seventy 0:05:03.516 --> 0:05:06.236 two is when it's approved. So it's the first commercially 0:05:06.276 --> 0:05:10.356 successful pattern here. And just tell our listeners how did 0:05:10.436 --> 0:05:13.916 that pattern happen? What was his story, what was his background. Well, 0:05:13.956 --> 0:05:17.876 so he was an American executive in the luggage industry, 0:05:17.956 --> 0:05:23.636 so somebody paid to think about her to make suitcases better, right, Yeah, 0:05:23.636 --> 0:05:27.436 And he was coming back from holiday with his family. 0:05:28.196 --> 0:05:29.556 This is a few years before, so the end of 0:05:29.596 --> 0:05:33.516 the nineteen sixties, and he is dragging these suitcases through 0:05:33.556 --> 0:05:37.596 customs and he looks up and he sees somebody who's 0:05:37.716 --> 0:05:40.556 probably working there sort of pulling something heavy on a 0:05:40.636 --> 0:05:44.036 platform with wheels. And he looks up at, you know, 0:05:44.076 --> 0:05:46.236 at this thing, and he looks at his own sort 0:05:46.236 --> 0:05:48.316 of suitcase, and he looks up at his wife and 0:05:48.356 --> 0:05:53.796 he says, that's what suitcases need, wheels, And the clouds 0:05:53.876 --> 0:05:57.036 parted and the sun and a choir of angels started 0:05:57.036 --> 0:06:00.596 singing Hallelujah at least right. But he then went back 0:06:00.596 --> 0:06:04.636 to Massachusetts and he screwed off these sort of cast 0:06:04.676 --> 0:06:06.836 of wheels from a I think it was a wardrobe, 0:06:06.836 --> 0:06:09.636 and he attached them to a suitcase that's right. Yeah, yeah, 0:06:09.636 --> 0:06:11.356 and that was so we always think, yeah, wheel suitcase 0:06:11.476 --> 0:06:14.676 invented in nineteen seventy, but that's um. It was kind 0:06:14.716 --> 0:06:17.036 of the wheels on the suitcase were on the four 0:06:17.076 --> 0:06:19.036 corners of the suitcase, and there was like a handle 0:06:19.396 --> 0:06:22.916 like a kind of yeah, like a leish, exactly like 0:06:22.956 --> 0:06:25.596 a leish. And then there was another innovation sometime later 0:06:25.636 --> 0:06:28.476 when you've got the telescopic handle and the suitcase was 0:06:28.516 --> 0:06:29.996 sort of flipped up on its end and you had 0:06:30.036 --> 0:06:32.996 the two wheels and low and behold that carry on 0:06:33.196 --> 0:06:35.196 wheelie suitcase as we know it was born. And I 0:06:35.236 --> 0:06:37.236 can't remember when that one was. That was in nineteen 0:06:37.356 --> 0:06:41.476 eighty seven, so almost a billion years after almost because 0:06:41.556 --> 0:06:43.876 you think, really, I mean, it's not such a huge 0:06:43.876 --> 0:06:47.556 thing because those first suitcases that Bernard say, don't bless him, 0:06:47.796 --> 0:06:50.156 you know, invented, they were not that great because they 0:06:50.236 --> 0:06:52.436 kept sort of falling over, and you could even buy 0:06:52.476 --> 0:06:55.836 a kind of stabilizers. You could get stabilizers for your suitcase. 0:06:56.236 --> 0:06:57.916 That's right. I used to have one. I remember I 0:06:57.956 --> 0:06:59.876 used to have a really hard green suitcase that had 0:06:59.916 --> 0:07:01.996 four wheels and a leash and it was rubbish. How 0:07:01.996 --> 0:07:06.236 old are you, I'm one hundred years billion years old. Actually, funnily, 0:07:06.276 --> 0:07:09.316 if I was born in nineteen seventy, the year of 0:07:09.396 --> 0:07:14.076 the wheelsuitcase, if you're Bernard Duda, So from nineteen seventy two, 0:07:14.156 --> 0:07:17.676 it takes until nineteen eighty seven until somebody figures out, well, actually, 0:07:17.716 --> 0:07:20.196 let's just turn this thing around and it won't tip over. 0:07:20.516 --> 0:07:23.036 And that was Robert Platt. So he created what we 0:07:23.116 --> 0:07:26.076 now think of us a rolling suitcase. All right, So 0:07:26.276 --> 0:07:28.436 that's the kind of story, and it sort of was that. 0:07:28.516 --> 0:07:31.996 I mean, these people existed and things existed, but a 0:07:32.036 --> 0:07:34.756 little bit of research, a little bit of googling reveals 0:07:34.796 --> 0:07:38.876 that people have been designing wheeled suitcases forever. I mean 0:07:38.876 --> 0:07:40.436 I was looking back and there was one in nineteen 0:07:40.436 --> 0:07:43.076 twenty five, someone had a pattern for a wheelsuitcase. And 0:07:43.356 --> 0:07:45.076 so what's going on? Like why were all these sort 0:07:45.076 --> 0:07:48.076 of proto wheel suitcases not happening? Like why did they 0:07:48.076 --> 0:07:50.956 not exist? People had the idea? So why are we 0:07:50.996 --> 0:07:54.116 celebrating the invention in nineteen seventy you know, I mean 0:07:54.116 --> 0:07:56.156 that's what it's like with innovation, right, you know a 0:07:56.196 --> 0:07:59.556 lot of people tend to have a similar idea around 0:07:59.636 --> 0:08:01.436 the same time. And you know, in this case we 0:08:01.516 --> 0:08:04.516 count the first commercially successful pattern. So I mean, that 0:08:04.676 --> 0:08:07.996 is one thing, but your point is correct. Other people 0:08:08.076 --> 0:08:11.916 had thought of this before. What I find really interesting 0:08:11.916 --> 0:08:14.076 and which didn't take me that long when I was 0:08:14.396 --> 0:08:16.676 working on the book, was to see that there is 0:08:16.676 --> 0:08:19.716 a sort of very gender pattern to all of this. 0:08:19.836 --> 0:08:25.116 So there were quite a few niche products in different 0:08:25.156 --> 0:08:28.956 ways applying the technology of the wheel to the rolling suitcase. 0:08:29.036 --> 0:08:31.436 So it's anything from these sort of strap on things 0:08:31.476 --> 0:08:34.436 with wheels that you could put on your suitcase, two 0:08:34.516 --> 0:08:38.796 actual you know, luggage with wheels, and so many of 0:08:38.796 --> 0:08:44.276 these were actually niche products for women. Why was that 0:08:44.716 --> 0:08:47.796 because and this, you know, I argue in the book 0:08:47.916 --> 0:08:50.596 is the big reason actually the solution to this mystery. 0:08:50.636 --> 0:08:52.436 You know, why did it take us so long to 0:08:52.476 --> 0:08:56.716 put wheels on suitcases? There was this really strong idea 0:08:56.796 --> 0:09:00.556 that it's unmanly to roll a suitcase. And that's why, 0:09:00.596 --> 0:09:03.636 even though these ideas existed, and there were you know, 0:09:03.876 --> 0:09:08.356 reasonably successful niche products for women using the technology of 0:09:08.356 --> 0:09:11.716 the wheel to make rolling a suitcase easier, the luggage 0:09:11.756 --> 0:09:15.316 industry as a whole didn't think this was anything that 0:09:15.316 --> 0:09:18.716 would go anywhere. And even after Bernard Saide of invent 0:09:18.916 --> 0:09:22.676 this rolling suitcase, at first, no American department store wants 0:09:22.716 --> 0:09:25.636 to sell it because they think there's no market. Men 0:09:25.716 --> 0:09:28.196 will never roll a suitcase and women are too small 0:09:28.236 --> 0:09:31.196 of a market. That's really interesting. It's funny actually, because 0:09:31.236 --> 0:09:32.556 I've just got a picture here. I'm going to show 0:09:32.556 --> 0:09:34.036 it to It's on my phone, So that was I 0:09:34.076 --> 0:09:36.276 don't know if you can see on my camera. Yeah, 0:09:36.276 --> 0:09:38.716 I haven't seen that before. So this was nineteen twenty five, 0:09:39.396 --> 0:09:43.116 and the inventor is called s Mastrotonio. I've pronounced their 0:09:43.516 --> 0:09:48.076 mastaurant anyway. It's a woman in an elegant stripy dress 0:09:48.116 --> 0:09:50.116 pushing a wheeled suitcase, and that's a sort of nineteen 0:09:50.156 --> 0:09:52.636 twenty five. So I'm just wondering, yes, with this idea 0:09:52.756 --> 0:09:54.996 sort of designed for women because this is not what 0:09:55.076 --> 0:09:58.956 men do. Yeah, there is like a long story of 0:09:59.076 --> 0:10:05.076 us thinking that wheels around manly. Even in Arthurian poetry. 0:10:05.116 --> 0:10:07.116 I talk about this in the book. There's sort of 0:10:07.276 --> 0:10:10.316 an instance when when Lancer Lot has to get on 0:10:10.396 --> 0:10:14.116 a cart with wheels to find Guineava and he can't 0:10:14.156 --> 0:10:16.636 do this because a night has to be on a 0:10:16.676 --> 0:10:19.196 horse or at least standing on his own two legs. 0:10:19.196 --> 0:10:22.676 He can't be on something with wheels, really yeah, yeah, 0:10:22.716 --> 0:10:26.276 But like guys like cars, and this is before cars. 0:10:26.316 --> 0:10:29.116 This is before cars, right, and the Roman chariots and 0:10:29.196 --> 0:10:33.116 ben Hurd that's pretty ridiculous Roman chariot cars. There. It's 0:10:33.156 --> 0:10:35.396 not like a constant, but there are there are these 0:10:35.476 --> 0:10:38.836 ideas around and there was certainly a period when sort 0:10:38.836 --> 0:10:42.076 of going in a carriage was considered to be you know, feminine, 0:10:42.116 --> 0:10:44.876 and then going on horseback. So there are sort of 0:10:44.876 --> 0:10:47.716 strains of this. But actually when it comes to luggage, 0:10:47.796 --> 0:10:51.796 it's all about, you know, masculinity has to always be proven, 0:10:52.076 --> 0:10:54.116 and one way that a man has to prove that 0:10:54.156 --> 0:10:57.156 he's a man is by carrying heavy things. This is 0:10:57.236 --> 0:11:00.316 just a really kind of strong opinion that the luggage 0:11:00.356 --> 0:11:03.836 industry has, along with an opinion that they are selling 0:11:03.916 --> 0:11:07.036 luggage to men who are the ones who travel. Women 0:11:07.116 --> 0:11:10.636 don't travel alone. If a woman levels, she will travel 0:11:10.716 --> 0:11:12.556 with a man who will then have to carry her 0:11:12.596 --> 0:11:15.476 bag for her. So that woman that you show me 0:11:15.476 --> 0:11:18.236 on the picture, she's something that the industry considers to 0:11:18.236 --> 0:11:20.956 be quite rare, which is a woman who travels on 0:11:20.996 --> 0:11:23.556 her own. And even in the nineteen seventies, the first 0:11:23.676 --> 0:11:27.356 rolling suitcases work quite heavily marketed towards you know, like 0:11:27.396 --> 0:11:31.796 in nineteen seventies businesswoman in a corduvoice suit. And I suppose, 0:11:31.956 --> 0:11:34.516 you know, when we're talking about those gender stereotypes, I mean, 0:11:34.596 --> 0:11:37.196 is it that women push prams and push chairs and 0:11:37.356 --> 0:11:39.516 when we think about wheels, we tend to think or 0:11:39.556 --> 0:11:41.916 perhaps the industry would have tend to have thought of that. Yeah, 0:11:41.996 --> 0:11:44.876 and I suppose that a luggage on wheels maybe quite 0:11:44.916 --> 0:11:47.356 similar visually in a way. Yeah. And I think there's 0:11:47.356 --> 0:11:50.436 also something about that men are not sort of allowed 0:11:50.636 --> 0:11:54.476 to demand or want comfort in a way. You know, 0:11:54.516 --> 0:11:57.756 it's sort of the trend. I demand comfort at all opportunities, 0:11:58.756 --> 0:12:01.156 but it has to be like hard, right, it has 0:12:01.196 --> 0:12:04.596 to really. Yeah, Okay, you're the exception. But there's a 0:12:04.596 --> 0:12:06.836 lot of these things. I mean, even you know, roofs 0:12:06.836 --> 0:12:09.556 on cars used to be considered unmanly, right, you know, 0:12:09.556 --> 0:12:12.316 a real man is not allowed to complain about getting 0:12:12.316 --> 0:12:14.476 wet in the rain when he's driving his car. So 0:12:14.516 --> 0:12:16.996 the first cars for women that were first created with 0:12:17.036 --> 0:12:19.836 the roof. So I think there are these things and 0:12:20.076 --> 0:12:22.996 wheels on suitcases is one example of this. When you 0:12:23.036 --> 0:12:25.836 mentioned wheels right at the start, and you said, absolutely correctly, 0:12:25.876 --> 0:12:27.436 you know, it's not just a wheel. You need other 0:12:27.436 --> 0:12:29.516 things to go with wheels. You need axles, and you 0:12:29.516 --> 0:12:32.996 need rows. Was it not the case that part of 0:12:33.036 --> 0:12:36.556 the reason the innovation of the wheel suitcase was comparatively slow, 0:12:37.076 --> 0:12:40.036 we didn't have the architecture because airports at that time, 0:12:40.036 --> 0:12:42.116 before the nineteen seventies or right about that, were small 0:12:42.436 --> 0:12:45.356 and they didn't have smooth surfaces. I mean, presumably as 0:12:45.356 --> 0:12:47.796 airports expanded and got bigger and bigger, suddenly there is 0:12:47.836 --> 0:12:52.196 a need for wheeled suitcases that wasn't there before. Definitely, 0:12:52.196 --> 0:12:54.756 I mean that's a very good point. Of course, this 0:12:54.836 --> 0:12:59.876 product happened when air travel started happening to a larger extent. 0:12:59.996 --> 0:13:02.716 But it wasn't just that. If you look in newspaper 0:13:02.836 --> 0:13:06.636 archives from the sixties and the fifties, there is like 0:13:06.716 --> 0:13:09.356 a lot of complaining about how tricky it is to 0:13:09.516 --> 0:13:13.356 carry suitcases. There are no porters anymore. The luggage industry 0:13:13.476 --> 0:13:18.276 needs to innovate. We need handles made in softer fabrics. 0:13:18.596 --> 0:13:22.156 I mean, it's all there because travel was already changing 0:13:22.196 --> 0:13:25.516 and you did have buses, you have trained, so yes, 0:13:25.796 --> 0:13:28.716 you know, the way we think of rolling suitcases against 0:13:28.716 --> 0:13:32.436 these sort of smooth airport flaws, that was not an option. 0:13:32.476 --> 0:13:36.476 But it's still heavy and people were certainly complaining about this, 0:13:36.596 --> 0:13:39.876 you know, changing trains in Madrid and dragging your suitcases. 0:13:40.196 --> 0:13:42.756 So it was a problem that people were aware of, 0:13:42.916 --> 0:13:46.636 and actually it was unthinkable for the luggage industry that 0:13:46.756 --> 0:13:50.076 men would adopt this particular solution to it, but then 0:13:50.116 --> 0:13:52.116 they did. Yeah, but that's the other thing, I mean, 0:13:52.156 --> 0:13:53.956 the speed of it. I mean, we all have them. 0:13:54.156 --> 0:13:56.196 I don't remember ever there being a case where there 0:13:56.236 --> 0:13:58.756 was a sort of backlash against wheelsuitcases because they were 0:13:58.796 --> 0:14:02.236 deemed to be UNMATCHO. It's just there. It seemed to 0:14:02.276 --> 0:14:04.876 happen very very quickly. There were no wheelsuitcases, and suddenly 0:14:04.916 --> 0:14:08.276 there were wheelsuitcases, and everything seems to kind of evolve 0:14:08.316 --> 0:14:12.236 in step with so, like you say, Porter's kind of vanished, 0:14:12.716 --> 0:14:16.836 airport flaws got smoother and uncarpeted in order to do that, 0:14:17.276 --> 0:14:19.116 And so there were all those different things happening in 0:14:19.196 --> 0:14:21.676 synchronicity together at the same time. Because it did seem 0:14:21.676 --> 0:14:25.196 to happen pretty rapidly after eighty seven, certainly, But I 0:14:25.236 --> 0:14:27.796 mean you do have, like, first this sort of idea 0:14:27.876 --> 0:14:31.676 that men can't roll suitcases need to disappear, and then women, 0:14:31.716 --> 0:14:33.876 I mean, will you also have during this period, which 0:14:33.916 --> 0:14:36.476 obviously I emphasize in the book, is that you know, 0:14:36.556 --> 0:14:40.476 women come out onto the former labor market in greater numbers. 0:14:40.556 --> 0:14:43.956 Women change business travel during the nineteen eighties in large 0:14:43.996 --> 0:14:46.276 parts of the world. And that's not just you know, 0:14:46.436 --> 0:14:49.676 suitcases with wheels. Women were the early adopters. It was 0:14:49.756 --> 0:14:52.876 marketed to them. Obviously, a woman on a business trip 0:14:53.076 --> 0:14:55.636 is a woman who travels by herself, right, not with 0:14:55.676 --> 0:14:58.796 her family, So it was a product for her. And 0:14:58.876 --> 0:15:01.636 women change business travel in you know, even like better 0:15:01.756 --> 0:15:04.476 lighting in hotel bathrooms. And I mean a lot of 0:15:04.516 --> 0:15:08.196 things changed because women started traveling like that as well, 0:15:08.236 --> 0:15:10.836 and the rolling suit case was one of them. But 0:15:10.996 --> 0:15:13.276 you know, you're right, I mean, how quickly then goes 0:15:13.396 --> 0:15:16.756 from something that's unthinkable for men to have to being 0:15:16.796 --> 0:15:18.836 I think now most people would think of it as 0:15:18.956 --> 0:15:22.196 more of a mail product if you forced them to pick, 0:15:22.316 --> 0:15:26.156 because it's so associated with like a suited businessman, right, 0:15:26.516 --> 0:15:28.756 I guess so, And I think Robert Platt, the guy 0:15:28.756 --> 0:15:30.916 who were talking about earlier, who invented to carry on 0:15:30.916 --> 0:15:32.676 bagg as we know it with a telescopic handle and 0:15:32.676 --> 0:15:34.956 that sort of two wheels. I think he was a pilot. 0:15:34.996 --> 0:15:37.916 I think it was that right. Yeah, he started marketing 0:15:37.956 --> 0:15:40.516 two sort of airline crews, and then you know, they 0:15:40.556 --> 0:15:43.556 were quite good marketing because they would sort of walk 0:15:43.636 --> 0:15:46.156 from the airport looking smart with these bags, and people 0:15:46.156 --> 0:15:49.116 started thinking, oh, I want one. I wonder if it's possible. 0:15:49.156 --> 0:15:51.236 Can you even buy a suitcase without wheels? Now? I 0:15:51.236 --> 0:15:53.836 think it must be thing. Yeah, it must be tricky. 0:15:53.836 --> 0:15:57.516 You know, it's completely disrupted the whole global luggage industry. 0:15:57.556 --> 0:15:59.236 And you know that's what we think of when we 0:15:59.316 --> 0:16:02.516 hear the word suitcase. Now, so yeah, there you go. Actually, 0:16:02.516 --> 0:16:04.916 many years ago I did a program about wheel suitcases 0:16:04.956 --> 0:16:07.036 and someone had invented I can't remember them in the company, 0:16:07.036 --> 0:16:10.436 but they'd invented to sort of motorized wheelsuit case, which 0:16:10.516 --> 0:16:12.636 was very fancy that I don't think that called on 0:16:13.476 --> 0:16:15.476 just a bit too much fat Well, you don't know, 0:16:15.636 --> 0:16:18.156 I mean it might, yeah, I've seen something like that. Look, 0:16:18.156 --> 0:16:21.996 those robot ones they are supposed to walk behind you, right, Yeah, 0:16:22.036 --> 0:16:24.516 and actually for kids as well, you know kids, the 0:16:24.596 --> 0:16:26.236 idea that actually, well why don't we have a wheel 0:16:26.236 --> 0:16:28.356 suitcase that kids can sit on and turn it into 0:16:28.356 --> 0:16:30.716 a kind of fairground, right, Yes, so they're brilliant. Let's 0:16:30.716 --> 0:16:32.436 just a win win. It's a win win. Let me 0:16:32.476 --> 0:16:33.996 just ask you as well. I mean, you talked about 0:16:34.076 --> 0:16:36.636 lighting in bathrooms and stuff, and your book you'd mentioned 0:16:36.676 --> 0:16:40.316 lots of different things. I suppose words of gender has 0:16:40.396 --> 0:16:44.156 sort of influenced innovation or where gender has held back innovation. 0:16:44.196 --> 0:16:47.196 I'm just wondering what other examples you had where that's 0:16:47.196 --> 0:16:49.796 the case. Yeah, I mean, so we mentioned cars, So 0:16:49.836 --> 0:16:53.396 I mean that's quite interesting because it's such a ideas 0:16:53.476 --> 0:16:56.516 of cars and car market is a very gendered thing 0:16:56.676 --> 0:16:59.236 for different reasons. And where I talk about in the 0:16:59.276 --> 0:17:02.516 book is electric cars, who were around already at the 0:17:02.596 --> 0:17:05.516 dawn of the automobile era and the in the late 0:17:05.516 --> 0:17:08.716 eighteen hundreds you could phone up an electric taxi company 0:17:09.116 --> 0:17:11.556 and in and they would come pick you up. And 0:17:11.636 --> 0:17:14.996 what's interesting is how electric cars started to be marketed 0:17:15.036 --> 0:17:18.156 towards women because there was this idea that a car 0:17:18.276 --> 0:17:23.956 that was slower, more comfortable, safer was feminine, So it 0:17:24.036 --> 0:17:28.036 began to be marketed towards wealthy women and wasn't even 0:17:28.076 --> 0:17:31.436 seen as almost like a like a car, more like 0:17:31.436 --> 0:17:34.236 a drawing room on wheel, some kind of extension of 0:17:34.276 --> 0:17:36.796 the feminine sphere of the home. See that's what I 0:17:36.836 --> 0:17:39.876 want in a car. I want a drawing room on wheels, 0:17:39.916 --> 0:17:42.356 you know, with sort of drapery and in build crystal 0:17:42.516 --> 0:17:45.396 vases for flowers they had, Do you want that? Nice? 0:17:45.636 --> 0:17:48.476 Very civilized? Well, actually that's interesting because people again a 0:17:48.516 --> 0:17:51.756 bit like wheel suitcases. People like you say, site electric cars. 0:17:52.036 --> 0:17:53.716 We've had them for ages. And again, you know, I 0:17:53.716 --> 0:17:56.236 tend to think, well, isn't it just because battery technology 0:17:56.356 --> 0:17:58.356 is a bit rubbish? Yes, that was the main reason 0:17:58.356 --> 0:18:00.916 why electric cars then disappeared and we built a whole 0:18:00.916 --> 0:18:04.476 world for petrol driven cars. So gender wasn't the main reason. 0:18:04.556 --> 0:18:06.636 I don't say that in the book, but ultimately historians 0:18:06.676 --> 0:18:08.996 they talk about battery issues. There were a couple of 0:18:09.156 --> 0:18:14.116 big investments into sort of business models around electric car 0:18:14.236 --> 0:18:18.476 technology in the US that didn't work out for other reasons, 0:18:18.516 --> 0:18:21.476 so the market lost appetite. But then they also talk 0:18:21.516 --> 0:18:24.476 about other cultural factors, and what I say in the 0:18:24.476 --> 0:18:27.236 book is you know, you should call those other cultural 0:18:27.276 --> 0:18:30.916 factors what they are, which is gender bias, because when 0:18:30.996 --> 0:18:34.636 something becomes seen as for women or a drawing room 0:18:34.676 --> 0:18:38.116 on wheels, then many male consumers don't want it. So 0:18:38.196 --> 0:18:40.436 the electric car industry held back the size of its 0:18:40.436 --> 0:18:43.556 own market. It's probably fair to say, though, that when 0:18:43.596 --> 0:18:45.236 you talk about the sort of gender bias in terms 0:18:45.236 --> 0:18:47.076 of innovation to a lot of people, it's just going 0:18:47.076 --> 0:18:48.596 to seem invisible. They're going to be like, well, what 0:18:48.596 --> 0:18:50.476 do you mean, because we're so used to the way 0:18:50.516 --> 0:18:54.196 things are. It's only when it's pointed out you start 0:18:54.236 --> 0:18:59.196 to make connections and see these gender biases everywhere. Is 0:18:59.236 --> 0:19:01.596 that fair? Yeah? I think we tend to think of 0:19:01.636 --> 0:19:05.076 the forces of innovation and technology as these sort of neutral, 0:19:05.276 --> 0:19:10.276 incredibly powerful, rational things that are just sort of pushing everything. 0:19:10.476 --> 0:19:13.196 You know, the economy, US society, our lives so long, 0:19:13.916 --> 0:19:16.116 and that's not really how it works. You know, we 0:19:16.156 --> 0:19:19.756 are the ones inventing and building machines and funding machines 0:19:19.796 --> 0:19:23.316 and buying machines and not just machines but products, and 0:19:23.396 --> 0:19:26.716 we come into all of these activities shaped by our biases, 0:19:26.836 --> 0:19:28.756 and I think gender is a really big one. Here. 0:19:29.116 --> 0:19:31.636 The trouble is of biases. They're really easy to see 0:19:31.636 --> 0:19:33.396 in other people and not very easy to see in 0:19:33.436 --> 0:19:36.916 yourself pointing out your biases as well. I'm not biased, 0:19:36.916 --> 0:19:39.516 of course, I'm not bias. I'm absolutely rational and completely 0:19:39.676 --> 0:19:42.276 open minded and down the middle, and I'm absolutely perfect, 0:19:42.276 --> 0:19:44.876 which in my case is true. But everyone else I've 0:19:44.916 --> 0:19:48.556 noticed is very, very biased, very biased. Well, I suppose 0:19:48.556 --> 0:19:50.196 that's going to be true. I suppose when we think 0:19:50.196 --> 0:19:52.996 about history of inventions, particularly I don't know, the Victorians, 0:19:53.436 --> 0:19:55.756 our minds turn to steam engines and such. It does 0:19:55.876 --> 0:19:59.596 tend to be a very male dominated world, not for 0:19:59.756 --> 0:20:01.636 the fact that men are more creative, but just the 0:20:01.676 --> 0:20:05.036 way that society and institutions were set up. Yeah, not 0:20:05.156 --> 0:20:07.356 just that, I mean, I think I would go further. 0:20:07.396 --> 0:20:10.356 I would say that sort of our definition technology has 0:20:10.356 --> 0:20:14.076 almost always followed up a definition of masculinity or what 0:20:14.236 --> 0:20:17.716 men do. Sort, when men do something, it's it's an invention, 0:20:17.796 --> 0:20:20.436 you know, when women invent in software, which is you know, 0:20:20.516 --> 0:20:22.796 that's what the whole economy is run on. Now, it's 0:20:22.796 --> 0:20:26.156 a female invention. But back then it wasn't considered to 0:20:26.196 --> 0:20:29.516 be technology. Men were doing hardware, which was like the 0:20:29.596 --> 0:20:32.716 serious stuff, and women just happen to invent and develop 0:20:32.796 --> 0:20:36.116 and largely develop this thing called software, and women are 0:20:36.156 --> 0:20:39.556 written out a lot from the history of innovations, you know, 0:20:39.556 --> 0:20:41.996 the historians who talk about you know, why do we 0:20:42.196 --> 0:20:45.276 talk about the Bronze Age and the Iron age and 0:20:45.396 --> 0:20:48.196 not the ceramic age or the flax age. You know, 0:20:48.316 --> 0:20:51.396 ceramics or things that have to do with cloth. That's 0:20:51.436 --> 0:20:55.196 also technology. That's also innovation, but we don't think of 0:20:55.236 --> 0:20:58.596 it like that. And it's been largely developed and invented 0:20:58.636 --> 0:21:01.756 by women. So women get written out of this history 0:21:01.756 --> 0:21:04.276 of innovation, and when we study it, then we are 0:21:04.316 --> 0:21:08.596 basically studying our own absence, which doesn't make women feel that, 0:21:08.716 --> 0:21:11.596 you know, being an innovator is something, it's an identity 0:21:11.676 --> 0:21:14.596 that's available to them. Yeah, it's not good. No, it's 0:21:14.636 --> 0:21:16.596 an interesting Well, actually, we did a program about the 0:21:16.636 --> 0:21:19.396 history of the space suits and I'll see Dover, which 0:21:19.436 --> 0:21:21.516 was a division of PLATEX of course, used to make 0:21:21.556 --> 0:21:24.276 brows and girdles, and actually the space suits that the 0:21:24.316 --> 0:21:26.436