WEBVTT - Glen Merzer Meets World 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:25.079 So I turned a corner with Indy's It's very specific. 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:32.440 For the first time, he introduced me to something that 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:36.360 I think is culturally so freaking cool. 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:40.040 And sophisticated, and because you know, like you're always introducing 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:43.080 stuff to your kid, and Indy's always introducing stuff to me. 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:45.440 And most of the time I'm like, yeah, that's cool. 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:47.640 For a kid, Like whatever he's into, I'm like, yeah, whatever, 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:50.600 or I freaking hate it because it's my numbing and 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:53.239 it's meme culture, which is mostly what he introduces me to, 0:00:53.640 --> 0:00:56.680 and I can't stand it. But this last week he 0:00:57.000 --> 0:00:59.120 was like, will you watched this YouTube show with me? 0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:02.160 And I'm like, no, I freaking hate Youtuo. Like we've 0:01:02.320 --> 0:01:04.360 had a no YouTube rule in our house. I just 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:06.280 don't let him go down those rabbit holes. But you 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:08.920 can't avoid it. There's just too much of it. So 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:11.039 he was like, trust me, I figure. 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:11.280 You know. 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:13.400 He kept fighting for this. Alex was out of town. 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:16.000 It was just the two us, so I finally was like, Okay, fine, 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:20.520 let's watch this thing he puts on, this show called 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:25.600 The Amazing Digital Circus. It starts off, it's all CGI animation, 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:32.679 it's insanity, it's visually chaotic. It's very hard to keep 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:35.480 up with. There's a lot of like eyeball stuff, like 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:39.000 characters messing with their eyeballs. That makes me very uncomfortable 0:01:39.000 --> 0:01:44.119 with skin starts crawling just looking at it. It's super fast, 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:46.479 like like a lot of the YouTube meme culture stuff 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:49.680 where it's like, you know, like characters, and there's like 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:51.720 fifteen characters introduced right away. 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:52.800 I don't know what's happening. 0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:55.080 It makes me uncomfortable in ways that like Ran and 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:56.600 Stimpy used to make me uncomfortable. 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:01.440 I have come to this show so much. 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:04.560 By the end of the season, there's only been eight episodes. 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:06.760 They are now getting a theatrical release. 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:09.400 Because it is it's all animated. Dude, it is. 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:10.760 You have to watch the show. 0:02:10.800 --> 0:02:14.800 This is the most sophisticated, incredible writing I've encountered in 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:17.520 so long. And it took like by episode three, I 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:20.919 was like, actually, India, I think this is like awesome, 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:23.600 and I'm and he's like see, and I'm so proud 0:02:23.639 --> 0:02:26.160 of him for like love it because it's actually very adult. 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:28.399 It's not a kid's show. It looks like a kid's show. 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:32.200 It's very but it is super dramatic it is very 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:34.079 heavy and psychologically dark. 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:35.200 What is it about? 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:38.919 So it's basically and this is this goes back to like, 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:41.600 you know, when I try to show Indie the Matrix, 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:42.959 he was like, this is the most boring thing in 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:46.359 the world because the idea of like being an avatar, 0:02:46.440 --> 0:02:49.399 like the idea of like being inside of a virtual 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:53.480 world is so basic for kids. Now, like that's free guy, 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:56.880 that's avatar. That's like the Matrix is like that, like 0:02:57.080 --> 0:02:59.680 the idea of you're living in a simulation. This takes 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:03.440 that to the next level. So it's a character of 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:06.320 a human presumable you never see them because you're in 0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:11.000 the oh it's first person. No, she just shows up 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:14.200 as a character with a body that she did not choose, 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:18.919 and she is trapped inside a virtual circus where anything's possible, 0:03:19.280 --> 0:03:22.000 and she's being held captive by an AI. And this 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:26.640 AI is this scary looking, crazy character named Cain who 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:29.440 is somehow capturing people. The only thing you know is 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:33.680 that at one point these people who you very drips 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:36.160 and drabs get their backstory. At some point they put 0:03:36.160 --> 0:03:38.200 on a virtual headset and they can't take it off, 0:03:38.640 --> 0:03:42.880 so you know, AI but against their will, right and 0:03:42.880 --> 0:03:45.120 they're being held captive by an ai and I am 0:03:45.360 --> 0:03:48.040 not by the By the third or fourth episode, you 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:50.960 will start going like, oh my god, they have planted seats. 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:53.680 It's written by somebody who has remaining anonymous. It's a 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:57.640 woman who goes by Gooseworks. It's an Australian show. It 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:04.160 is genius. So wait, you didn't have it. It's all animation, Yeah, okay, yeah, 0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:08.000 and it's it's like it's like, basically, I haven't like 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:11.800 Rick and Morty is like the closest to the sort 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:15.040 of self conscious, incredible storytelling that you get from this thing. 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:16.840 But it's dark and like, like. 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:18.719 I said, like it still doesn't make me super comfortable 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:20.400 with some of the animation choices, but it's all in 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:23.240 the service of like, I'm just so happy that now 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:26.040 Indy's introducing me to stuff and like I totally trust 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:28.839 his taste out because he was like insistent. He's like, Dad, 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:31.440 you're gonna like this, and I was so happy that I'm. 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:33.960 Like, dude, you're right, I. 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:35.200 Love this, Like I am so yeah. 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:36.920 So I feel like we're at that age now where 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:38.440 he's going to just be introducing me to stuff and 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:40.720 I'm gonna like trust him because it's worth it. 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:42.200 Like yeah, but anyway, check out the show. 0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:45.040 It's incredible Digital Animal Circus, No. 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:47.159 The Amazing Digital Circus. 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:49.120 The amazing Digital service. 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:49.479 Yeah. 0:04:50.279 --> 0:04:52.960 The humor is there, like it is. It's so funny. 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:55.600 It's inappropriate for my six year old. 0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:59.039 Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's pretty much inappropriate for eleven year olds. 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:02.200 It's really like it looks and feels like, you know, 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:04.680 like like some of the best adult cartoons, right, it 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:07.120 looks and feels like a kid's show, and there's elements 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:10.960 of it. Like basically, Cain the AI is saying he's 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:14.320 trying to keep them entertained by by giving them adventures 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:17.240 every week, and each adventure is like some crazy, out 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:19.160 there thing that he's come up with to like keep 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:20.400 them occupied. 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:22.400 And they're just trying to escape the whole time. 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:24.640 Right, But man, it is so he's the one who's entertained. 0:05:24.920 --> 0:05:27.479 Yes, oh, you guys got to check it out. That's incredible. 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:28.680 All right, I'm down for that. 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:32.440 Welcome to Pod Meets World. I'm Daniel Fishal, I'm writer Strong, 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:33.440 and I'm wil Fredell. 0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:49.280 Over the past three years of the podcast, when booking 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:52.800 from Boy Meets World past we will take guests however 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:56.800 they come. There were obviously writers, producers and guest stars 0:05:56.800 --> 0:05:59.920 that we've kept in touch with, the Blutman's, the mccrackens, 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:03.440 the Matt Lawrence's, the Deities. There were those that were 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:07.120 just an email away, the David Trainers, the Danny McNulty's, 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:08.440 the Lee Norrises. 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:11.360 There were people we personally. 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:15.279 Hunted down, the Dusties, the Julie Yang Silvers, the cow Pens. 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:19.839 We had people pitch themselves, We hounded publicists, We signed 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:23.719 up for LinkedIn for Christ's sakes. But this week we 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:27.159 have a new way through the praise of Jeff Mannel. 0:06:27.800 --> 0:06:30.080 When we asked him the writer he was saddesst to 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:33.880 see leave through the show's always revolving door, he answered 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:36.479 with a name we had never focused on before, even 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:39.279 though we had obviously recapped his episodes by that point. 0:06:39.560 --> 0:06:40.880 The name just didn't ring a bell. 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:44.119 Jeff explained, this guy just never really got a chance 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:48.080 to shine on staff. But more importantly, the staunch vegetarian 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:51.880 once dressed as a chicken to protest the crew's incessant 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:55.800 desire to order cuckaroo for lunch every day, And well, 0:06:56.560 --> 0:06:59.120 then we knew we had to bring him on to 0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:03.640 Podmeats World. He's a playwright, screenwriter, director, and author who 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:06.280 has written or co written more than a dozen books 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:09.800 advocating a diet of whole plant foods, books like Food 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:10.880 Is Climate. 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:11.840 And America Goes. 0:07:11.960 --> 0:07:15.360 Vegan started with just an online guide to vegan restaurants 0:07:15.400 --> 0:07:19.480 in the late nineties and a website, HappyCow dot com. 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:22.520 But in Hollywood, he began his career on Saint Elsewhere, 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:26.240 China Beach, and the TV adaptation of Parenthood, before landing 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:29.600 on Blossom, where he wrote nine episodes and functioned as 0:07:29.640 --> 0:07:32.240 a supervising producer for seasons two through four. 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:35.960 And he recently wrote and directed a movie, Buddhist Blues, 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:37.720 which we will hear all about. 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:40.480 But today we are forcing him to focus on the 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:43.360 one year he worked on Boy Meets World, penning a 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:47.160 few bangers, pairing off Wake Up Little Corey and Danger 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:50.640 Boy for season two, and yes, also the time he 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:53.280 dressed as a chicken to make sure everyone knew how 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:57.280 he felt about the constantly devoured rotisserie Coombo from Cuckaroo. 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:03.400 Welcome to Pod Meets World, write producer and activist Glenn Mercer. 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:09.040 Hi, Oh, how are you good? Do any of you 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:10.160 actually remember me? 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:11.520 Yeah, I do. Yes. 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:17.960 Of course you were kids, Yeah, so were you. 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:21.840 I was in my thirties, you were kids. 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:27.040 Glenn, thank you so much for joining us. As you know, 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:30.400 our pal Jeff Manel name dropped you as the writer 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:33.120 he missed the most through the seven seasons we worked 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:38.080 on the show, and we became instantly intrigued. So we're 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:40.320 not going to bury the lead here. We want to 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:45.240 see what you remember from the infamous Kukoroo incident where 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:49.040 you dressed as a chicken. My first question is did 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:51.840 you own the chicken outfit or was it a rental? 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:58.040 I asked somebody in the costume department to help me outs. 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:03.240 What did you say? I want to know. I want 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:04.440 to know what set this off? 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:06.679 What was what was what sparked the kernel of an 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:07.600 idea in your mind? 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:12.240 Well? I am a vegan, yes, and in fact, in 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:15.440 the thirty two years I think since I worked on 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:20.880 Boy Meets World, I have turned the world vegan. I 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:23.760 don't know if you ever wondered who turned the world vegan? 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:24.280 That was me? 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:26.920 Okay, yeah, congratulation. 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:32.120 And so the staff seemed to love the fried chicken 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:34.040 from this place called Cuckaroo. 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:36.160 Yeah, oh, we remember it well. 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:39.520 I was appalled. So when they said they're going to 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:44.199 have the CEO of Cuckaroo come visit and watch the show, 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:48.679 I you know, I snuck down to the costume department 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:51.120 and asked them to help me out give me a 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:54.680 chicken outfit, and I made a sign at home that 0:09:54.800 --> 0:10:00.000 said chickens are people too. And I wore the chicken 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:04.560 costume and I held that sign. And I have not 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:08.400 been on the Christmas list of the CEO of Cuckaroo 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:09.319 ever since. 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:11.560 Was that on a tape night or did he come 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:13.480 for a rehearsal? We didn't. I don't think we knew 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:14.920 the information about the CEO. 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:17.760 I'm guessing he came on a tape night he wanted 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:18.600 to see the show. 0:10:18.800 --> 0:10:20.960 Yeah, how did we not get to know that the 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:22.319 CEO of Cuckaroo? 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:23.640 I don't. 0:10:23.760 --> 0:10:26.520 I know. When you when you're when you got a 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:30.319 top show in show business, you just meet all kinds 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:30.840 of people. 0:10:31.120 --> 0:10:32.319 I love that. That. 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:36.800 That is the Our writers were like, which ceo can 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:37.559 we get down here? 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:42.320 That's important? We walk the guy from Cuckaro. Oh he 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:45.400 was gettable. Let's be honest. Cuckaroo was gettable. 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:48.280 Did any of the other writers know you were going 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:50.480 to do this. Was it a secret you kept? 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:53.959 Oh? Sure? Yeah? 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:55.000 How did it go over? 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:57.440 Did it upset anybody or was it just well, I 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:01.360 think the cuckaroo guy was upset, but that I don't 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:02.440 know about anyone else. 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:04.680 All I know is I wasn't writing for boy Meates 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:05.880 World the next few years. 0:11:06.520 --> 0:11:07.000 Wow. 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:10.760 They were like, I can't believe he pissed off the 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:13.600 CEO of our favorite lunch place. 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:15.559 And then it chucked him out and Cooker and then Cooker. 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:19.200 But this gets to my big question, like what was 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:20.960 your relationship like with the writers? 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:23.719 Like what? Oh? Yeah, I mean because I was very 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:28.679 fond of the two Jeffs. Sure, I was very fond 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:30.640 of a guy named Howard bust Gang. 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:33.920 Yeah, Howard is great, you know, and I. 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:38.480 Thought I got along okay, But you know, I was 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:42.040 only there for a half year, so really was currently 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:43.239 not with everybody? 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:45.080 Wait, so you were only there for half a season? 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:48.080 Only there for half I wrote three episodes in a half. 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:50.640 Season, wow, which is actually. 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:54.080 A lot for there for half a Yeah. 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:55.240 I mean obviously everyone thought you were funny. 0:11:55.320 --> 0:11:55.520 Yeah. 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:57.800 Were you originally hired for the full season and then 0:11:57.840 --> 0:11:58.920 they just came to you and well. 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:01.080 Know, when you get hired and television, you get a 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:05.120 deal that says you will you know, this will be 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:10.120 your pay and the company has the option to pick 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:12.000 you up or not at a certain point. 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:16.600 Wow, did you so? How soon after the Kuckaroo incident 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:17.280 were you let go? 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:21.520 Oh? That I don't remember, but I do remember this. 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:26.720 There was when I had written my first couple of episodes, 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:30.319 which was during the summer, you know, before you guys 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:35.319 came in with the staff. Was writing and my agent 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:38.120 did what agents do. He called up one of the 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:42.560 one of my bosses and I had a few and said, 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:49.040 how's Glenn doing? And the person apparently said, Glenn's writing 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:52.520 is very good, but he's not doing as much as 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:58.199 we would expect on the production side for a supervising producer. 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:01.520 So I said to my agent, well, thanks for letting 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:05.080 me know. And I went to that guy's office, no names, 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:08.520 and I said, I understand that you told my agent 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:11.880 that I'm not doing as much on the production side 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:17.360 as expected. And he said yeah, and I said, we're 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:18.360 not in production. 0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:21.720 What do you want from me? 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:28.160 So I had a feeling that something was in for 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:32.000 me at that point, and so I wasn't too shocked 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:33.840 when they let me go at mid season. 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:35.439 Wow. 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:38.200 And even when we went into production, was I supposed 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:39.640 to hang the lights? I don't know what I was 0:13:39.640 --> 0:13:44.560 supposed to So the costumes, I don't know. You know, 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:53.640 they they give writers titles executive producer, supervising producer, producer, 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:57.880 co producer, And I'm sure the public wonders, what are 0:13:57.960 --> 0:13:59.840 all these titles? What does it mean? So let me 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:03.400 finally explain it for the listening public so they know. 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:11.280 Very often, surprisingly enough, writers are fairly intelligent people. They 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:14.320 could have gone out into the real world and gotten 0:14:14.440 --> 0:14:22.000 real jobs. So to keep their parents happy, their parents 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:25.120 don't want to say my son, my daughter is a 0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:31.760 writer on a TV show, My son is supervising producing, right, right, 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:35.440 So that's what the titles are for. It's for the parents. 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:39.640 That makes sense. That makes sense. And doesn't it also 0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:42.600 have something to do with the guilds. 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:45.680 Maybe, but you know there are parents in the guilds. 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:48.480 That makes sense, the parents in the guilds. Yeah, you're right. 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:52.480 So you came on in season two, had you were 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:54.960 you familiar with boy Me's world when when you got 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:55.640 the job, or. 0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:58.000 Had you No, you didn't didn't know the show at all. 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:02.080 No, I had written for Block Awesome, Okay, And I 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:06.720 guess somebody figured it's a natural segue from Blossom to 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:07.680 boy meets World. 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:09.920 Yeah that makes sense, that makes sense. 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:11.960 They're they're the same, They're in the same kind of 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:16.880 vein young family sitcom teenage or young teenage protagonist. 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:17.680 Yeah, that makes sense. 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:19.400 But I want to get in a little bit to 0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:24.160 your origin story, because you actually started in stand up right, right, Yeah, okay, 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:28.360 So your first television credits are then Saint Elsewhere and 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:34.320 China Beach, right, which hardly funny material, Right, How did 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:36.320 that come about? How did you go from stand up 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:37.120 to Saint Elsewhere? 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:43.960 I went from stand up to writing stage plays. I 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:47.840 did stand up in San Francisco in the heyday of 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:55.160 San Francisco. It was Dana Carvey and Robin Williams had 0:15:55.200 --> 0:16:00.640 just left town and gotten discovered, and it was a 0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:04.840 Whitney Brown and a lot of great comics. So there 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:08.640 were actually three levels of comedians in San Francisco when 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:11.640 I was there in the early eighties. There were the 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:15.720 headliners like Dana Carvey. There were the open and that 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:18.880 was the top level. The third level. The bottom level 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:23.040 was the open micers, and the middle level consisted of me. 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:26.520 I amc the open mics. 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:28.600 Okay, that was the. 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:31.240 Middle level, and once in a while I would open 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:36.360 for somebody like Dana. So it did stand up for 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:38.960 about two years in San Francisco, and I could not 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:42.960 take the cigarette smoke. You know, in those days they 0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:45.840 smoked in the clubs, and I just couldn't take it. 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:49.760 So I thought, I'll write plays. And I got a 0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:55.080 fellowship to Indiana University to be a playwright. And there 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:58.480 was something called the American College Theater Festival. I don't 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:01.680 know if it probably still exists, where they would send 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:06.320 judges around the country to see productions and then the 0:17:06.359 --> 0:17:11.159 winning play would go to. In those days it was 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:15.200 called the Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts. It still 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:21.280 didn't have any other presidents. So I wrote a play 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:25.720 called The Cashier and it won and it went to 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:30.160 the Kennedy Center. And I said to myself, what if 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:34.000 I switched schools and I go to another school and 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:37.520 I do another play and I win again, then maybe 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:42.600 somebody will notice. So I went to the University of Alabama. 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:45.520 I wrote a play called A Morphous George and I 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:49.480 entered it in the festival and I won again, Oh 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:53.239 my god, and it went to the Kennedy Center, and 0:17:53.320 --> 0:18:00.000 I was wrong. Nobody noticed. But this time the prize 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:02.679 was not for the best play. It was for the 0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:07.720 best comedy. And the prize was to go to Hollywood 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:12.240 and write the stupidest sitcom. So that's what brought me 0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:16.280 to Hollywood. I wrote an episode of something called The 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:18.320 Facts of Life Are Kidding. 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:20.000 We take the good, we take the bad, we take 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:22.440 them all and then we have come on. 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:25.760 Did you meet David Kendall there? He worked on that show, right, I. 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:31.080 Did not meet him. I don't know if George Clooney was. 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:34.000 He was in the cast at one point. He was 0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:36.959 in the cast when I was there. I didn't know 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:39.760 to meet him. You know, I should have been paying attention. 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:47.280 So so I tried to pitch an episode. Because I 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:49.600 was the prize winning writer, they had to give me 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:52.879 an episode, but they didn't necessarily have to air it. 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:55.200 H just had to pay me for it and get 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:59.159 me into the writer's guild. So the problem was the 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:02.520 show had been on the air for seven years and 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:06.080 they couldn't do sex, drugs or rock and roll, and 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:10.560 they had done everything else. So I would pitch ideas 0:19:10.600 --> 0:19:12.560 and they'd say, no, we did that, No, we did that. 0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:16.320 I mean, it was much much easier for Shakespeare to 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:24.440 write a Hamlet then seas an episode past the staff 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:28.600 of Oh my god, it was just it was impossible. 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:33.400 So finally I came up with an idea and they 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:36.600 said yes. And it was around Christmas time of that year. 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:41.960 This is sometime in like the mid eighties, and they 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:45.800 all had lives, the staff, they had families, and they 0:19:45.880 --> 0:19:49.359 had their job. And I was this prize winning writer 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:52.199 who came in and I had nothing to do. So 0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:58.440 they said, okay, go home during the Christmas break and 0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:03.600 write an outline and come back. Now I didn't know 0:20:04.560 --> 0:20:07.080 that in the under the rules of the Writers Guild, 0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:09.879 you get paid in three stages. You get paid for 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:13.520 the outline, which they called the story, then you get 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:15.800 paid for the first draft, and then the second draft. 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:19.240 Nobody had explained this to me, So they tell me 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:22.960 to write the outline. I'd never written an outline before, 0:20:23.800 --> 0:20:26.800 but I figured how long could it take to write 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:31.200 an outline? A half hour? Right, Yeah, So I decided 0:20:31.240 --> 0:20:34.879 I'll impress them. I'll write the whole episode. I got 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:37.120 two weeks off with nothing to do. I'm in LA. 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:40.359 I don't know anyone. I'll write the episode. So I 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:44.320 wrote the fifty page episode very proudly typed it up. 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:49.479 It was probably typewriter days. Yeah, typed it up, handed 0:20:49.520 --> 0:20:52.399 it in, you know, the first day back, proudly handed 0:20:52.520 --> 0:20:57.080 into one of the producers of what was the show 0:20:57.119 --> 0:21:01.680 called again Acts of Life? Yeah, And the producer looks 0:21:01.680 --> 0:21:05.840 at it and scowls at me and says, what's this? 0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:12.200 And I said, it's my episode? And he says, where's 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:12.960 the story? 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:14.440 Now? 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:17.000 This was the stupidest question I'd ever heard in my life. 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:20.720 I said, it's in there. Where else is it gonna be? 0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:23.720 And they just paid me off and sent me home. 0:21:25.000 --> 0:21:27.120 What did they ever shoot your episode? 0:21:27.160 --> 0:21:27.280 Oh? 0:21:27.800 --> 0:21:30.439 They were annoyed that I had written the episode instead 0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:31.160 of the outline. 0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:32.480 Oh my god. 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:37.880 So when I then I got an agent, I don't 0:21:37.880 --> 0:21:39.960 know within a year after that, and I showed him 0:21:40.160 --> 0:21:43.600 what I wrote, and throughout my ten year writing career 0:21:43.680 --> 0:21:46.600 in Hollywood, he said, you know, I could end your 0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:50.000 career any time I want by distributing your Facts of 0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:51.680 Life episode. 0:21:53.000 --> 0:21:54.840 Because it was actually bad. Is what he was saying. 0:21:55.320 --> 0:21:59.639 It was terrible, I'm sure, but I thought terrible was 0:21:59.640 --> 0:22:04.399 the eye. It was the Facts of Life. What did 0:22:04.480 --> 0:22:04.760 I know? 0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:08.679 So how do you end up on Saint Elsewhere? 0:22:09.280 --> 0:22:12.119 Well, I wasn't on the staff of Saint Elsewhere. I 0:22:12.119 --> 0:22:16.280 got an episode, and I think, just my my agent 0:22:16.440 --> 0:22:20.320 had sent in one of my plays. Yes, I remember, now, yes, 0:22:20.359 --> 0:22:24.480