1
00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:05,840
Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberg Ihad podcast, and

2
00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:09,440
Speaker 1: I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing editor of Crypto for Bloomberg News.

3
00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:29,400
Speaker 1: It's Friday, January. One of the main questions we're asking

4
00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:31,640
Speaker 1: this week, and frankly one of the questions we ask

5
00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:35,440
Speaker 1: every week in our reporting, is what's the latest with Binance,

6
00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:38,920
Speaker 1: the world's largest crypto exchange by volume and by pretty

7
00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:42,440
Speaker 1: much any other metric you can decide. As we reported

8
00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:45,000
Speaker 1: this week in a story written by my colleague Emilye,

9
00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:49,720
Speaker 1: Nicole Finance acknowledge that it had been mistakenly mixing the

10
00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:52,360
Speaker 1: collateral it holds for some of its tokens in the

11
00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:55,960
Speaker 1: same digital wallets as other types of funds. Now, this

12
00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:59,600
Speaker 1: might sound technical and confusing, but we're going to talk

13
00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:04,160
Speaker 1: about why it's important and why this kind of operational

14
00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,640
Speaker 1: issue is a challenge for these exchanges at a point

15
00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:12,000
Speaker 1: when both regulators and customers are paying really close attention

16
00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:16,199
Speaker 1: to how this industry is managing its transparency. We'll also

17
00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:18,560
Speaker 1: talk about the layoffs that continue to happen in crypto

18
00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,360
Speaker 1: and how that relates to what's happening elsewhere in tech

19
00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,560
Speaker 1: and in finance and finally, we'll talk a little bit

20
00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,959
Speaker 1: about the latest in regulation. I'm delighted to be in

21
00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:31,520
Speaker 1: London this week, joined by my colleagues and Arera Bloomberg,

22
00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,360
Speaker 1: Senior Editor. I am hearing actually from head Hunters that

23
00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,160
Speaker 1: it's not as bad as other years, because there are

24
00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:39,600
Speaker 1: still some firms that are still hiring, maybe the ones

25
00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:41,360
Speaker 1: that came in and were a bit more level headed.

26
00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,720
Speaker 1: And by reporter to Justina Lee, it's just looking at

27
00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:48,240
Speaker 1: the correlation between the SMP five hundred and bitcoin and

28
00:01:48,280 --> 00:02:01,800
Speaker 1: it's still very much positive. Anna, Justina, pleasure to have

29
00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:05,040
Speaker 1: you joined me in the London studio. Yeah, thanks for

30
00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:07,600
Speaker 1: coming and having us. It's always a pleasure. Thank you

31
00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,200
Speaker 1: for having us. Now. I have this theory that every

32
00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:14,119
Speaker 1: time I travel, something bad happens in crypto, and that's

33
00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:18,000
Speaker 1: held up remarkably well. And you know, so, while I

34
00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:20,480
Speaker 1: was in transit over the past like week and a half,

35
00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:26,000
Speaker 1: we had Genesis file for bankruptcy Genesis filing in the

36
00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,440
Speaker 1: Southern District of New York. This only includes the lending

37
00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,480
Speaker 1: side of that business. The spot trading and derivative side

38
00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,200
Speaker 1: was not included in this chapter eleven. We had a

39
00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:40,320
Speaker 1: ton of reporting from our colleague Emily Nicole on various

40
00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:47,040
Speaker 1: confusing situations that relate to Binances, kind of management of

41
00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:50,320
Speaker 1: certain wallets and the tokens in those wallets. Let's have

42
00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:53,400
Speaker 1: look at Finances. It acknowledges that it mistakenly kept some

43
00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:56,640
Speaker 1: users unstored with its own reserves. It's when questioned buyers

44
00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:00,320
Speaker 1: at Bloomberg News, Binance issue the statement admitting collateral sets

45
00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:04,480
Speaker 1: were moved into the wallet in error. I know you

46
00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:06,960
Speaker 1: edited some of the Genesis stories, but also some of

47
00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:10,160
Speaker 1: the Binance stories. I'm going to ask you to just say,

48
00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,480
Speaker 1: in the least technical way possible, what's been going on.

49
00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,240
Speaker 1: So with Finance, I'll give you the latest update that

50
00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,680
Speaker 1: we had. Basically, Binance issues some tokens which are versions

51
00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:24,840
Speaker 1: of existing tokens. Because what happens with blockchain is that

52
00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:27,119
Speaker 1: if you issue a token on a different type of chain,

53
00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,359
Speaker 1: then that can run or work on another chip. Somebody

54
00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:32,800
Speaker 1: is used a token and it runs on ethereum, they

55
00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,600
Speaker 1: can't easily just like also have that work on say

56
00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,400
Speaker 1: the Solana blockchain exactly. And that's a big problem if

57
00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:41,240
Speaker 1: you want to have an interconnected system, and Finance has

58
00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:43,880
Speaker 1: its own chain, so they issue their own versions of tokens,

59
00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:46,280
Speaker 1: and the rule is that for every token the issue,

60
00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,400
Speaker 1: they should have the equivalent of the original token stored somewhere, right,

61
00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:51,160
Speaker 1: so they're not just making money out of thin air

62
00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:54,520
Speaker 1: or crypto tokens out of thin air. So um. What

63
00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:57,680
Speaker 1: Emily sort of found out, or that she was told

64
00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,240
Speaker 1: by a research firm was that they looked at sort

65
00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:02,880
Speaker 1: of the wallets where Binance keeps the reserves and they

66
00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,400
Speaker 1: published them and they had a lot more of tokens

67
00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:09,240
Speaker 1: than what they'd issued. So that made it seem that

68
00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,120
Speaker 1: the tokens, the tokens that are supposed to be reserves

69
00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:14,280
Speaker 1: for the ones that issues, were stored in the same

70
00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:17,320
Speaker 1: place as funds that customers put in on the exchange,

71
00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,440
Speaker 1: which is bad, which is not ideal because then there's

72
00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:23,680
Speaker 1: no way you know what is what, and then if

73
00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:25,440
Speaker 1: you're a customer you want to withdraw or if you

74
00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:29,000
Speaker 1: you know, you don't know what's where um or at

75
00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,240
Speaker 1: a minimum, it's messy, and also it doesn't follow the

76
00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:33,880
Speaker 1: guidelines that they themselves say they will do. So you know,

77
00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:36,680
Speaker 1: Emily flagged it to them after the other report came

78
00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:39,920
Speaker 1: out and Nance said yes, they admitted that there was

79
00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:42,440
Speaker 1: an error. It was a mistake, it was an operational

80
00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,320
Speaker 1: sort of issue, and they were fixing it. The same

81
00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:49,920
Speaker 1: analysts flag that there was less backing for another coin,

82
00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,960
Speaker 1: Binance his own version of another coin, a stable coin

83
00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:55,000
Speaker 1: that it issue that is issued by a bank called

84
00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,040
Speaker 1: Paxos that they all has Binance his brand name. So

85
00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:01,120
Speaker 1: again it's quite technical. What I guess for a listener,

86
00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:03,000
Speaker 1: what you need to know is that you know, Binance

87
00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:05,400
Speaker 1: has been talking a lot about being transparent and you

88
00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:09,479
Speaker 1: know called out FDx for um not lots of there

89
00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,760
Speaker 1: are lots of things, yes, exactly, but it's also facing

90
00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:17,000
Speaker 1: operational challenges. Is a big, big little mistake if you want,

91
00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:19,160
Speaker 1: if you want, right, oh, we kept the tokens in

92
00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:20,720
Speaker 1: the same place. We're going to fix it. You know,

93
00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:24,560
Speaker 1: it's it's like five million worth of tokens we're talking

94
00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:26,320
Speaker 1: right here, and it's kept in a wallet that starts

95
00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:28,760
Speaker 1: sixteen billion worth of token. So it's just like a

96
00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,800
Speaker 1: bit confusing because if you don't segregate customer funds, I

97
00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:34,240
Speaker 1: guess they're both customer funds, but you have to distinguish

98
00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:36,840
Speaker 1: between customer funds and the exchange customer funds because they

99
00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:40,840
Speaker 1: backed tokens at you issue and just you know, this

100
00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,400
Speaker 1: is all happening in an environment in which, you know,

101
00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,039
Speaker 1: as Anna mentioned, Binance has been out ahead and calling

102
00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:50,240
Speaker 1: for transparency, but also pretty much everybody else who is

103
00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,400
Speaker 1: scrutinizing crypto right now is saying, you'll need to get

104
00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:55,599
Speaker 1: your act together as it relates to being able to

105
00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:59,120
Speaker 1: be very specific about what you hold, what the risks

106
00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:02,040
Speaker 1: of those exposures are, how you know what those risks are,

107
00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:05,360
Speaker 1: where customer funds are and so on. Yeah, that's right,

108
00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,039
Speaker 1: And I think Finance really is at an interesting cross

109
00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,760
Speaker 1: road here because ftx is collapse has really left them

110
00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,719
Speaker 1: as the last giant standing. I mean, they grabbed a

111
00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,640
Speaker 1: lot of market share from f t X and now

112
00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:21,960
Speaker 1: they're by far the largest crypto exchange, and so they've

113
00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:24,400
Speaker 1: come under a lot of a lot more scrutiny. And

114
00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,480
Speaker 1: you could say, we haven't exactly seen that kind of

115
00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:29,680
Speaker 1: existential risk you know with f t X. You know,

116
00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:33,880
Speaker 1: Finance would say they've survived you know, higher withdrawals over

117
00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,520
Speaker 1: the past few months, but kind of as Anna has

118
00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,080
Speaker 1: talked about, I mean, we have seen some cracks appear

119
00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:43,760
Speaker 1: under close scrutiny, you know, from the accounting for masters

120
00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:47,560
Speaker 1: kind of withdrawing from crypto at a stations in general, um,

121
00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:50,840
Speaker 1: you know, after they did finances so called proof of

122
00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:54,520
Speaker 1: reserves report, and also these issues with um, you know,

123
00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:57,240
Speaker 1: those wallets and Anna we're talking about, And so I

124
00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,280
Speaker 1: think I think CS is definitely treading very carefully at

125
00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:04,000
Speaker 1: this time because none of what either of you are

126
00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:09,120
Speaker 1: saying is nefarious, right, Like, it's hard to keep on

127
00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,720
Speaker 1: top of wallets, accounting firms going to accounting firm and

128
00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,880
Speaker 1: they have they are entirely uh you know, they can

129
00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,400
Speaker 1: decide at any points that they want to be participating

130
00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:20,520
Speaker 1: in an ecosystem or they don't want to be participating

131
00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:22,400
Speaker 1: in an ecosystem. I want to go back to something

132
00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:24,000
Speaker 1: that you said about all this though, just you know,

133
00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,400
Speaker 1: which is that finance is by far, like by far

134
00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:32,440
Speaker 1: orders of magnitude, the most systemically important crypto exchange in

135
00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:36,760
Speaker 1: the world, and that is bringing much more scrutiny than

136
00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:40,840
Speaker 1: perhaps they are used to or necessarily want. And it's

137
00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:47,600
Speaker 1: also bringing regulatory attention. Where and how is binance regulated? Wow,

138
00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:50,800
Speaker 1: that's a great question. UM that probably had doesn't really

139
00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:54,680
Speaker 1: have an answer because their policy all along has been

140
00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:58,680
Speaker 1: too kind of be this global exchange on the Internet

141
00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:02,040
Speaker 1: that's not really based anywhere, that doesn't exactly have a

142
00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:06,240
Speaker 1: parent corporation. That's been kind of helpful in terms of,

143
00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:11,000
Speaker 1: you know, not really being beholden to any particular regulator.

144
00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,920
Speaker 1: But as regulatory scrutiny increase in recent years, they have

145
00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:18,040
Speaker 1: tried to change that by starting to set up local

146
00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:23,560
Speaker 1: entities that actually tried to register with regulators. But they've

147
00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,880
Speaker 1: kind of had a few setbacks in this area. Obviously,

148
00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,480
Speaker 1: sometimes it's the problem of regulators not exactly knowing what

149
00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:33,520
Speaker 1: to do with them, but sometimes it's also that finance

150
00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,280
Speaker 1: is not necessarily ready to make those compromises. And I

151
00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:39,080
Speaker 1: think it'll be interesting to see where we go from

152
00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:42,960
Speaker 1: here because at the same time rules are starting to tighten,

153
00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:45,760
Speaker 1: so will finance be able to step up and change

154
00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:50,680
Speaker 1: their internal operations fast enough to match that. I think

155
00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:52,880
Speaker 1: that's not clear just yet. And to your point about

156
00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:54,880
Speaker 1: rules starting to tighten, you know, just in the past

157
00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:59,280
Speaker 1: couple of days, we've seen, um, the French who love

158
00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:03,960
Speaker 1: voting on too votes to kind of tighten up in

159
00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,200
Speaker 1: in one perspective, some rules that are governing cryptocurrencies. But

160
00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,000
Speaker 1: on the other hand, you know, it's like less stringent

161
00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,440
Speaker 1: types of policy than some folks were expecting. And one

162
00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:15,920
Speaker 1: of the things that cz was talking about on Twitter

163
00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,520
Speaker 1: recently was this, you know, he was kind of endorsing

164
00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:22,840
Speaker 1: this idea of the need for a global aligned policy framework,

165
00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:25,440
Speaker 1: which has very much become like the talking point of

166
00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:28,720
Speaker 1: regulators everywhere. Right, But for what I'm hearing from you,

167
00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:32,400
Speaker 1: just you know, it's like Finance is almost the opposite

168
00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,439
Speaker 1: of operating under a global regulatory framework, where they've either

169
00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:38,960
Speaker 1: taken the position that we are everywhere and therefore newhere,

170
00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:43,480
Speaker 1: or we have these specific local entities that might be

171
00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:46,920
Speaker 1: you know, compliance with laws in Germany or in Spain

172
00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:49,880
Speaker 1: or in the US, but there's no kind of over

173
00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:54,160
Speaker 1: arching crypto overlord to whom they are beholden. I think

174
00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,040
Speaker 1: a lot of people were quite surprised when France actually

175
00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:01,360
Speaker 1: gave finance like a registration of some kind, and they've

176
00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:03,640
Speaker 1: since kind of faced a bit of backlash with that,

177
00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:07,080
Speaker 1: and that's why they've kind of been talking about possibly

178
00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:11,520
Speaker 1: even imposing mandatory crypto licenses and the vote you talked

179
00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:15,240
Speaker 1: about false short of that, but it does require you know,

180
00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:18,880
Speaker 1: more strange and conflict of interest management rules and and

181
00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,680
Speaker 1: kind of more rules in general like that in order

182
00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:26,640
Speaker 1: for entities to get registered in France. And so I

183
00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,560
Speaker 1: think there's a question of, you know, whether finance will

184
00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:33,640
Speaker 1: remain registered under these new rules. And also, I mean,

185
00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:37,079
Speaker 1: how much to regulators even know about how these crypto

186
00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:41,160
Speaker 1: exchanges work and how do they even monitor compliance. We'll

187
00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:43,000
Speaker 1: be right back with more of the week's top crypto

188
00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:54,920
Speaker 1: stories from Anna Arera and Justina Lee. I think one

189
00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,400
Speaker 1: of the nuances that folks in crypto are finding right

190
00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:01,480
Speaker 1: now is they're very much where the banks were in

191
00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,520
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, not necessarily in terms of the

192
00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:07,800
Speaker 1: systemic risk of anything, but in terms of the fact

193
00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:14,640
Speaker 1: that customers have lost money or lost faith or are

194
00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,599
Speaker 1: starting to lose faith in the ecosystem. And that's a

195
00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,559
Speaker 1: challenging place to be. And one of the things one

196
00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:23,719
Speaker 1: of the ways we've seen industry respond is by just

197
00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,960
Speaker 1: laying people off. Gemini Trust Company, the firm founded by

198
00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,160
Speaker 1: the billionaire Winkel Box Twins, is cutting another ten percent

199
00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,280
Speaker 1: of its workforce, adding to the wave of job cuts

200
00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:37,160
Speaker 1: across the technology, fintech, and crypto industries at large. Just

201
00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:40,600
Speaker 1: you know, you have reported on you know, finance for

202
00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:42,560
Speaker 1: a long time, and you've been through these sort of

203
00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:44,920
Speaker 1: waves of job job cuts and people being like, oh, no,

204
00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:48,199
Speaker 1: I didn't get a million pound bonus this year. But

205
00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:51,720
Speaker 1: but I think this level of retrenchment is relatively new

206
00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:53,679
Speaker 1: for a lot of folks who came into crypto in

207
00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:56,160
Speaker 1: the past two years. Yeah, that's right. And it's kind

208
00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:58,079
Speaker 1: of funny because I guess a lot of them probably

209
00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:00,960
Speaker 1: came from tech or by this as well, and now

210
00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:03,520
Speaker 1: they're they're realizing that crypto itself is not in a

211
00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:06,599
Speaker 1: boom cycle forever, and they're actually caught a lot of

212
00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:10,160
Speaker 1: parallels between the crypto and the tech retrenchment that we're

213
00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:14,120
Speaker 1: seeing in the sense that I think both industries um

214
00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:17,600
Speaker 1: probably overextended during the boom years and are now forced

215
00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,160
Speaker 1: to cut back, and also in the sense that they've

216
00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,840
Speaker 1: both in a way suffered under these interest rate increases,

217
00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,599
Speaker 1: which is a bit ironic for crypto probably. So I

218
00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:29,760
Speaker 1: think you'll be interesting to see where these people end up,

219
00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:33,520
Speaker 1: because I mean, tech is not really hiring again, and

220
00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:39,720
Speaker 1: SO and finance is definitely not expanding either. And Anna,

221
00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:44,240
Speaker 1: this is not your first crypto winto SO and SO.

222
00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:46,280
Speaker 1: As you as you kind of look out with you know,

223
00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,160
Speaker 1: the like the benefits of hindsight, where do people tend

224
00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,120
Speaker 1: to go after these sorts of things happen. So I

225
00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,120
Speaker 1: think the difference is just you know, saying is that

226
00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:57,920
Speaker 1: in all crypto winters before everybody else was fine, so

227
00:12:58,040 --> 00:12:59,800
Speaker 1: you could get laid off and go find the work.

228
00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,360
Speaker 1: Because a developer for Google, there's like was like a

229
00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:06,720
Speaker 1: fiercely intense battle for talent. And maybe that hasn't really

230
00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:08,559
Speaker 1: died down. I'm not really sure, because you know, you're

231
00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:11,120
Speaker 1: still building websites and you still need AI and you

232
00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:13,480
Speaker 1: still need you know, developers everywhere. It's not like that's

233
00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,520
Speaker 1: gone away. But maybe you have some of the fat.

234
00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:20,040
Speaker 1: Like I love watching videos of employees from big tech

235
00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:22,120
Speaker 1: firms on TikTok's say this is my I don't know

236
00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:23,679
Speaker 1: if you've seen them, but like this is a day

237
00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:25,760
Speaker 1: in the life of a Google and they're like picking

238
00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,080
Speaker 1: like breakfast, and they have half a meeting and then

239
00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,280
Speaker 1: they go pick snat and and then you know, so

240
00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,440
Speaker 1: maybe that's like not the actual core people that they need.

241
00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:38,000
Speaker 1: So some of them may may be super highly skilled

242
00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:41,080
Speaker 1: blockchain developers, of which are still not many, right because

243
00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:43,520
Speaker 1: this is a new technology will probably find place, but

244
00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:46,760
Speaker 1: it won't be as easy. And I am hearing actually

245
00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:49,959
Speaker 1: from head hunters that it's not as bad as other years,

246
00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,320
Speaker 1: because there are still some firms that are still hiring,

247
00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:53,920
Speaker 1: maybe the ones that came in and were a bit

248
00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:57,120
Speaker 1: more level headed, perhaps ones that were funded by or

249
00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:01,600
Speaker 1: arms of banks or other sort of more us uh

250
00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:06,440
Speaker 1: like wild westy kind of vibes. So that might be

251
00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:10,760
Speaker 1: a place, or you know, maybe they'll launch their own company.

252
00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:12,800
Speaker 1: Sometimes that's what happens when they start launching their own

253
00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,400
Speaker 1: companies because some of these people have money stashed away

254
00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:17,640
Speaker 1: if if and so you know often you do here

255
00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:20,640
Speaker 1: that when like there's moments like this, people start building

256
00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,760
Speaker 1: new things. Believe we've got to it's time to build. Yeah,

257
00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,280
Speaker 1: Like I'm thinking, I'm thinking the problem is where they're

258
00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:27,840
Speaker 1: going to ask money for. But there are the all

259
00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,440
Speaker 1: these giant funds with all this money that's just sitting there.

260
00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,200
Speaker 1: Just as a as a kind of a closing thought,

261
00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:37,480
Speaker 1: you know, we are ending January because time is a fiction.

262
00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:40,920
Speaker 1: And in what is a kind of a classic of

263
00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:43,400
Speaker 1: things that happened in media um, one of our colleagues,

264
00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,840
Speaker 1: Mike Regan wrote, you know, a very smart story about

265
00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,840
Speaker 1: how bitcoin and crypto markets more broadly were starting to

266
00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,360
Speaker 1: benefit from the January effect, and like most other equities,

267
00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,320
Speaker 1: were rallying. As soon as we published the story, everything

268
00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,360
Speaker 1: went down. But but you know, just you know, I

269
00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,400
Speaker 1: appreciate that you mentioned kind of the rate environment at

270
00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:05,760
Speaker 1: the top. Are there any other like macro economic things

271
00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,640
Speaker 1: that you are tracking, whether whether you know, sentiment around

272
00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:12,840
Speaker 1: the interest rates, whether the state of strikes in the

273
00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:15,640
Speaker 1: UK that you think might be affecting sentiment more broadly

274
00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,640
Speaker 1: across crypto. Yeah. Maybe Before I came in here, I

275
00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,760
Speaker 1: was just looking at the correlation between the SMP five

276
00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:26,280
Speaker 1: hundred and bitcoin, and it's still very much positive. And

277
00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,880
Speaker 1: obviously that's always been a bit ironic because after years

278
00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:33,160
Speaker 1: of bitcoin enthusiasts talking about how it's an inflation hedge,

279
00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:37,040
Speaker 1: it's kind of turned out to be the opposite. Obviously,

280
00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:41,040
Speaker 1: I guess that's partly particular to this macro environment and

281
00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,760
Speaker 1: the fact that crypto was held by a lot of

282
00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:47,480
Speaker 1: retail investors that gets scared as soon as they're they

283
00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:51,120
Speaker 1: see that their stocks and bonds are also falling, and

284
00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,520
Speaker 1: so it's kind of become, you know, this fact that

285
00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:56,360
Speaker 1: if you want to know where bitcoin is going, you

286
00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,360
Speaker 1: need to know where risky assets in traditional markets are going.

287
00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:03,240
Speaker 1: And it does seem like they're headed for a better

288
00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:07,120
Speaker 1: year because with signs of inflation peaking in the US

289
00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:11,320
Speaker 1: and perhaps even slower economic growth, the FED will slow

290
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,840
Speaker 1: down interest rate hikes, so that should be good news

291
00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,960
Speaker 1: for crypto. Um So, funnily enough, everyone is still watching

292
00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:23,160
Speaker 1: Jerome Powell, the most powerful man in markets. Well, thank you, Anna,

293
00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,480
Speaker 1: thank you, Justina, appreciate you joining us. Thank you. That

294
00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:30,440
Speaker 1: was Bloomberg Senior editor Anna Irrera and Bloomberg reporta Justina Lee.

295
00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:32,640
Speaker 1: You can find more of their work on the Bloomberg

296
00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:36,160
Speaker 1: terminal on Bloomberg dot com, and if you check out

297
00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:39,320
Speaker 1: our twice weekly newsletter, Bloomberg Crypto, you'll find them there too.

298
00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,280
Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily podcast from Bloomberg and

299
00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,280
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. For more shows from I Heart Radio,

300
00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:54,640
Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

301
00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:58,240
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Send us your comments, questions or

302
00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:01,280
Speaker 1: suggestions for the show to Crypto at Bloomberg dot net.

303
00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:08,159
Speaker 1: The supervising producer of Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky Vergelina. Our

304
00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:12,040
Speaker 1: senior producer is Janet Babin. Our producers are Mohammed Farouk

305
00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,480
Speaker 1: and Sharon Barriro. Our associate producers are Ty Butler and

306
00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:19,840
Speaker 1: Moses on Them. Desta wonder At is our engineer. Original

307
00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:24,520
Speaker 1: music by Leo Sidron. I'm Stacy Marie Schmal We'll be

308
00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:25,119
Speaker 1: back tomorrow.