1 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:10,160 Speaker 1: I'm George Severis and I'm Julia Clair. 2 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 2: Happy New Year, Kennedy Sichos. 3 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,760 Speaker 1: This is the United States of Kennedy, a podcast about 4 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:20,799 Speaker 1: our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week we 5 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 1: go into one aspect of the Kennedy story, and today 6 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: we are talking about the infamous nineteen sixty presidential debate 7 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: between JFK and Richard Nixon. Nixon was, of course President 8 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 1: Eisenhower's vice president, and Kennedy was a charismatic, handsome young 9 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:42,160 Speaker 1: senator who was winning hearts and minds despite the Catholic question. 10 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 2: The Kennedy Nixon debate was the first televised presidential debate 11 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 2: in American history, and if you went to high school 12 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 2: in the US anytime in the last few decades, you 13 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 2: likely learned that people who watched on television thought JFK 14 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 2: won the debate, and people who listened on the radio 15 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 2: that Nixon won. 16 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: But it isn't quite that simple, and that myth has 17 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,479 Speaker 1: actually been largely debunked by media scholars over the last 18 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 1: few decades. 19 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:11,199 Speaker 2: So to help guide us through this, we're joined today 20 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 2: by Craig LeMay, Professor of US and Comparative Media Law, 21 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 2: at Northwestern Universities Middill School of Journalism and co author 22 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 2: of Inside the Presidential Debates They're Improbable past and Promising future. 23 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:28,680 Speaker 1: Craig, Welcome to the United States of Kennedy. Thank you 24 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: so much for talking with us. I think let's get 25 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: right into some historical context here. We were doing some 26 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: research ahead of this episode, and we had a few 27 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 1: sort of conflicting accounts of what presidential debates looked like 28 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 1: before JF. Kin Nixon. So yeah, in our research document 29 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: it says that largely speaking, the candidates themselves did not 30 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: do a lot of the debating, and surgeons would do 31 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: a lot of the debating. But then I was thinking, 32 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: because I remember years ago reading Neil Postman's Amusing Ourselves 33 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: to Death where he talks about the famous Lincoln Douglas debates, 34 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: and his whole argument was, you know, people used to 35 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: have the attention span to watch these three hour live conversations, 36 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 1: which seemed to be kind of in contrast with what 37 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: we learned sure here. So I'm wondering, as an expert 38 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:15,639 Speaker 1: on this, if you can walk us through a little bit, 39 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: you know, before the television era, what debates looked like. 40 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 3: Well, first of all, there was no such thing as 41 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 3: a golden era of debate. You mentioned the Lincoln Douglas debates, 42 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 3: and that era surrogates debated usually, And when Lincoln and 43 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 3: Douglas debated, that debate was sponsored by the Chicago Tribune, 44 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 3: and it was actually considered unseemly by a lot of 45 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 3: people because they were campaigning for a Senate seat. In 46 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 3: those days, senators weren't elected by the popular vote. They 47 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 3: were appointed by state legislators. So the idea that these 48 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 3: two guys would debate seemed to many people, though not 49 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 3: unseemly than just odd. And of course people think Lincoln 50 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 3: won and he lost the seat. But also then, as 51 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 3: was true throughout the nineteenth century and early twentieth century, 52 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 3: debates were always part of other events, carnivals, shows, and 53 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 3: they were a fur of popular entertainment. I think it's 54 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 3: great you referenced Neil Postman. That's one of my favorite books. 55 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 3: I think it's worth a reread. But people paid attention, 56 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 3: that's true, and they were parts of other entertainment events. 57 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 3: And if you flash forward to nineteen sixty, the most 58 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 3: remarkable thing about the nineteen sixty of Base vers is 59 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 3: that they happened at all, because they wouldn't have happened 60 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 3: if Congress hadn't have stepped in to make them happen. Secondly, 61 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 3: that was not just the first televised debate. That was 62 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 3: the first time in history presidential candidates met face to face. 63 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 3: It had never happened before. Again, it was just something 64 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 3: that candidates didn't do, and that was the role in 65 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 3: the vice presidential debate in earlier period too. The vice 66 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 3: presidential candidates were the ones who would go fight it 67 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 3: out on behalf of the guy further up the ticket. 68 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: Really. Yeah, something that was mentioned when we were doing 69 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: some research on this that we didn't quite look into, 70 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: and I would love your take on is in nineteen 71 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: fifty six, Sometimes this is called the first televised presidential debate, 72 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: but it was Roosevelt versus Senator Margaret Chase Smith, and 73 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: they were acting as surrogates for their candidates. And I 74 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: was shocked by the fact that in some ways the 75 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: first televised presidential debate was between two women. 76 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 3: Were they actually in the same studio, because that's the 77 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 3: other thing you often had debates what in fact, one 78 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 3: of the Nixon Kennedy debates, I forgot which one one 79 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 3: of them was in New York and one was in 80 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 3: LA and the first one here in Chicago. Of course 81 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 3: they were in the same studio. I can't remember anyway, 82 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 3: the particular debate you're referring to. But one of the 83 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 3: other remarkable things about television debates in nineteen fifty six 84 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 3: is the year that television penetration crossed that fifty percent 85 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 3: mark in the United States. Before that, most people didn't 86 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 3: have television sets and they didn't get a signal. And 87 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 3: even in fifty six, if you had a signal because 88 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 3: you were in a significant metro area, but I would 89 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 3: be curious because they obviously were they candidates. 90 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: They were each acting as a surrogate. 91 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 3: That's interesting because the other thing that happens is people 92 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:56,559 Speaker 3: don't realize this. One of the things that people always 93 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 3: argue about is why is it only the two major 94 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 3: parties to debate? Why there are other parties? And that's 95 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 3: an interesting discussion we should have. But the other thing 96 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 3: that consider is that I don't know what the number 97 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 3: was in nineteen sixty. I used to know. But every 98 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 3: year there's hundreds of people who are legally registered candidates 99 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 3: for president of the United States, and one of the 100 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 3: tricks with the debates is always this is true not 101 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 3: just the United States but every country that has debates. 102 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 3: Who gets the debate right, who gets invited? And then 103 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 3: there's a whole bunch of extra questions about is there 104 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 3: any free time for candidates? Can they buy time that 105 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 3: the candidates get equal time? What about third party candidates? 106 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 3: So I don't know about that. This is a long 107 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 3: way of saying I don't know about that fifty six 108 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,119 Speaker 3: debate you're asking me about, but I would be curious 109 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:45,720 Speaker 3: if they're actually you said it was television. There were 110 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 3: radio discussions and debates before that too, of course, but 111 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:52,280 Speaker 3: again you didn't have the candidate's meetia face to face 112 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 3: until nineteen sixty. 113 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 2: That's really interesting, And I want to go back to 114 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 2: something that you mentioned about Congress clearing the way for 115 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:02,039 Speaker 2: the nineteen sixty debate. I think a lot of people 116 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 2: don't know about that. Could you explain that for us? 117 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 3: It's because when Congress wrote the nineteen thirty four Communications Act, 118 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 3: there's a part of it it's called Section three fifteen, 119 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 3: which is called the Equal Time Law, and it's still 120 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:17,919 Speaker 3: in a force and it says, at any time a 121 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 3: qualified candidate for public office gets airtime. Other candidates for 122 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 3: the same office can claim the equal time. And the 123 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 3: way that originally work, believe it or not, was that 124 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 3: anytime a candidate got so even in routine news coverage, 125 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 3: other candidates could step up and say, well, hey, you 126 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 3: had that guy in the news for five minutes. And 127 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 3: of course it's obviously Newsworth, you know, if you're an incumbent, 128 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 3: cover what the incumbent's doing. But then are you seriously 129 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 3: expecting that we're going to give equal time to fifteen 130 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 3: other people? And so Congress eventually changed the equal time 131 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 3: law to say it only applied to bonafide news programs, 132 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 3: news interviews, documentaries, and things like that. It specifically did 133 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 3: not say debates, and so it wasn't clear that, you know, 134 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 3: if you had a debate between the candidates, that you 135 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 3: wouldn't have to provide equal time in some form or 136 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 3: perhaps have other debates or invite the other candidates to 137 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 3: the debates under the equal time rule. So in order 138 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 3: to make it work, Congress actually in nineteen sixty had 139 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 3: a one time suspension of the law. They just said 140 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 3: not this year, and it made it possible for the 141 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 3: Nixon candidates to happen. Oh, I actually had the number here. 142 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 3: There are fourteen candidates for president in nineteen sixty So 143 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 3: that's how they did it. They did it, and then 144 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 3: in nineteen sixty four, in fact, until nineteen seventy six, 145 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 3: there were no more debates because Congress didn't change the 146 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 3: law to include the word debates. Johnson decided he didn't 147 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 3: want a debate. He told Congress, don't do this, and 148 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 3: then Nixon didn't want a debate later because he had 149 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 3: had a bad experience in nineteen sixty and so it 150 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 3: it just took forever. And then the way it finally 151 00:07:56,520 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 3: happened is the FCC of Federal Communications Mission, acting really 152 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 3: quite ingeniously and on its own authority, decided that debates 153 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 3: were news events if they were sponsored by somebody other 154 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 3: than the parties or the candidates. And so you'll recall 155 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 3: it was the National League of Women Voters for many 156 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 3: years until nineteen eighty eight. They sponsored the debates, and 157 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 3: they did the best they could, and they were dealing 158 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 3: with candidates who made life really difficult for them. I mean, 159 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 3: one of the things when people complain about all that's 160 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 3: wrong with the debate, and there's plenty that's wrong with them. 161 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 3: The question has never been between great debates and not 162 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 3: so great debates, is between having debates and having no debates, right. 163 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 3: And then there's this other question that people raise is 164 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 3: that they're all a waste of time. Anyway. I don't 165 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,839 Speaker 3: believe that, as you could guess, it's the only time 166 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 3: in the presidential campaign where you see the candidates side 167 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 3: by side under circumstances they don't control. 168 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: Right, And I think the historical context that they used 169 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: to be part of a carnival is especially salient because 170 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: people love to talk about political media as you know, 171 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,439 Speaker 1: a circus, and it's like, well, that is literally its legacy. 172 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: There was originally an entertainment event as part of a carnival. 173 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: I wonder if we can talk a little bit about 174 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: the media ecosystem of the time, what did television and 175 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 1: radio look like, and political media especially look like. What 176 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 1: was the baseline onto which this debate was added, Because 177 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: I don't know, we are just so used to the 178 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 1: world now of cable news and TV personalities and even 179 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: in the slightly previous era like Rush limbought type figures 180 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: on the radio, But what did it look like in 181 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:33,199 Speaker 1: the fifties, let's say leading up to this debate. 182 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 3: First of all, I was born in fifty seven, so 183 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 3: my personal knowledge of this is a little thin. But 184 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 3: of course the dominant media at the time would have 185 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 3: been newspapers and including especially for news and political news. 186 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,439 Speaker 3: And the newspapers in the United States largely panned the 187 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 3: nineteen sixty debates. They thought, I don't know what they thought. 188 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 3: They thought this was not serious business. And of course 189 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 3: in nineteen sixty now you have television much more widely 190 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 3: penetrated around the United States, but you still only have 191 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 3: what less than a handful of channels. You have two 192 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 3: or three. You don't even have the UAHF channels. By 193 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 3: nineteen sixty, the educational UHF band comes along because of 194 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 3: Newton Minno Kennedy's FCC chairman, and ABC is a fairly 195 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 3: functioning network at this point. ABC really cut its teeth 196 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 3: on the Army McCarthy hearings about earlier in nineteen fifty four. 197 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 3: So it's really NBC and CBS, and of course, in 198 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 3: those days, and you know, well into my lifetime, they 199 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 3: were the gold standard for television news. And of course 200 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 3: they didn't make any money. They weren't expected to make money. 201 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,199 Speaker 3: That was also another different thing about there. They were 202 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 3: lost leaders for their networks, but they were part of 203 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 3: the CBS's Tiffany brand, for example, part of what gave 204 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 3: it that, you know shine, And that would have been 205 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 3: true for Sarnoff over at NBC too, And they were 206 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 3: very concerned. You know, when the original idea for debates 207 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 3: came along. It happened because of Adalys Stevenson, who of 208 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 3: course ran for President Whatt twice and got beat Sally twice, 209 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 3: and he. 210 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: Didn't want a debate. Is that Correk? He was resistant? 211 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,559 Speaker 3: Did that kind of guy? He actually score on television? 212 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 3: He made some comment once, so I should back up 213 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 3: Newton minnow my mentor, and I suppose the reason we're 214 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 3: talking is because I worked for him for so long. 215 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:15,199 Speaker 3: He was an agic senator. Stevenson and Mino saw a 216 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 3: great potential on television, as did his friend and his 217 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 3: colleague on the campaign trail, Robert Kennedy. And they had 218 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 3: small children at the time, so they both envisioned the 219 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 3: world in which television would be a much more vital 220 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,119 Speaker 3: resource and public education and elections and the rest. Stevenson 221 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 3: thought it was like selling soap, and it was beneath 222 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 3: him to do this, but nonetheless his young aides prevailed 223 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 3: upon him. And the way it all happened is in 224 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 3: nineteen fifty nine, Sunday Newspapers had a Sunday magazine supplement 225 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 3: under various names. I can't remember which one it was, 226 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 3: but Stevenson published an article that Minno wrote urging it's 227 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 3: the candidate time on the networks, and that the networks 228 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 3: would give free time to each of the candidates to 229 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,080 Speaker 3: speak to the nation. And the networks didn't really like 230 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 3: that because they were afraid of setting a precedent where 231 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 3: they would do this, and of course that would have 232 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 3: required a waiver of Section three fifteen to two. But 233 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:10,679 Speaker 3: the way Congress actually held hearings and they were led 234 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 3: by Senator John Pest's story from Rhode Island, and the 235 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 3: way it eventually worked out, I think Frank Stanton, the 236 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:20,679 Speaker 3: president of CBS News, really prevailed upon them here, was 237 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 3: that we won't give them free time, but let's have 238 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 3: a debate. Let's do that. It'll be much more entertaining, frankly, 239 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:29,839 Speaker 3: and he convinced Congress, and so that's why they had 240 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 3: the debates. But the idea came from this article that 241 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 3: appeared under Stevenson's name in nineteen fifty nine. So that 242 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 3: was the media environment of the time. And yeah, a 243 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 3: lot of people watch this thing, and as you know 244 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 3: a lot of people listen to it on the radio 245 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 3: to this day. Presidential debates when they air, if you 246 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:53,599 Speaker 3: take them together, they have audiences that rival major sporting events. 247 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 3: Not quite super Bowl levels, but if you're add it 248 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 3: all up, it's quite extraordinary. And of course let's assume 249 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 3: we have presidential debates. Ever again, I'm not at all 250 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 3: confident that we will, because we really remember, the Commission 251 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 3: for Presidential Debates got pushed out of the picture in 252 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 3: twenty twenty four by the Biden campaign and they just 253 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 3: completely sidelined the commission. But these things are watched globally. 254 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:16,559 Speaker 3: They just don't have a domestic artists. They're watched all 255 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 3: over the world. And the other thing to note about 256 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 3: these debates, I think that's really important about them is 257 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 3: nobody in the world admires the Americans for the way 258 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 3: they conduct presidential campaigns. They're just an absolute blank show 259 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:32,679 Speaker 3: and they go on forever, yes, interminably, yes, and they 260 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 3: cost godly sums of money, dark money and all the rest. 261 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 3: You know, a British campaign for Prime minister last what 262 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 3: six weeks or something like this by a law. 263 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: I mean, it's one of those things that has an 264 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: American you know, the American mind can't comprehend. 265 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 3: Nope, and it's exhausting for people. But what they do 266 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 3: admire because the United States is really the first country 267 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 3: to ever have presidential debates, and it's partly because we 268 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 3: were early to the poll with television in nineteen six 269 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 3: or only you know how many countries that had television 270 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,959 Speaker 3: around the world, especially national networks. But they did think 271 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 3: these debates are a really cool idea, and so one 272 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 3: of the things the Commission of Presidential Debates has done 273 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 3: for years is train people from around the world and 274 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 3: help them set up their debates under their own law. 275 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 3: Because those original questions I toosd at you about who 276 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 3: gets the debate, who gets free time, who gets paid time? 277 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 3: Are their content restrictions on debates? What about minority party candidates? 278 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 3: You know, in parliamentary system, that's a bigger deal than 279 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 3: it is here. In any event, everybody around the world 280 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 3: has looked at the debates for all their problems and said, yeah, 281 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 3: we should do that. That's a good idea. 282 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, And just to add some figures to what you 283 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 2: were saying, the nineteen sixty debate was watched on television 284 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 2: by seventy million people, seventy million Americans, and the population 285 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 2: at the time of the United States was only about 286 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 2: one hundred and eighty million people, So that is a 287 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 2: huge swath of the population, probably as many people who 288 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 2: has had TVs at the time. We're watching the presidential debate. 289 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 1: We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after 290 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: this break. 291 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 2: And we're back with more United States of Kennedy. 292 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: So let's get into the debate itself, because it's this 293 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: theoretical prompt that people use to make arguments. But I 294 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: realized in prepared for this, I don't actually even know 295 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: what the main issues were, what the big questions were that. 296 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 3: I should have I mean, you can watch them on YouTube, 297 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 3: and I should have gone back to watch them. But 298 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 3: I do know, for example, Vietnam didn't come up at all, right, okay, 299 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 3: and said a couple of little Chinese islands did. And 300 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 3: the other thing is the candidates barely looked at each other, hm, 301 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 3: at least in that first one in the CBS studios 302 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 3: here in Chicago. 303 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: There are these basic things that are part of the 304 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: mythology that has spread around this debate, where for example, 305 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: jfk wore a dark suit and that made him look 306 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: better on the TV set. Nixon had a five o'clock shadow, 307 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: and that made him look tired, he was sweaty. All 308 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: this stuff do you mind for anyone who might not 309 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: even be aware of any of the narratives surrounding this debate. 310 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 1: Walking us through the main highlights, both substantial ones and 311 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: surface level ones. 312 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 3: Well, let's start with the surface level ones. Some of 313 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 3: this is anecdotal, of course, and it's taken on a 314 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 3: mythology of its own. As you noted Nixon, of course, 315 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 3: it was true he had a fever. He was not well. 316 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 3: He also smacked his knee on the cab of the 317 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 3: door when he was getting to the studio, so his 318 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 3: knee hurt. And to be fair, I mean, the guy 319 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 3: was never in his life a capable television personality. Kennedy was, 320 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 3: of course very poised, very smooth. The other thing I 321 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 3: do know both had agreed not to wear makeup. Kennedy 322 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 3: wore makeup, Nixon declined it and of course it was 323 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 3: offered to them by whoever does makeup in the CBS 324 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 3: News studio. And you know, in the days of analog television, 325 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:06,879 Speaker 3: you really needed to wear makeup or you would shine 326 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,360 Speaker 3: like a light bulb, right, And it was heavy makeup. 327 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 3: I mean when they took that stuff off, they soiled 328 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 3: a towel doing it, but any of it. Nixon wore 329 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 3: no makeup and looked uncomfortable. You can watch a little 330 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,880 Speaker 3: bit of the video and see how just uncomfortably looks. 331 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 3: Never mind you know, stories of perspiration or anything else. 332 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 3: So I think that's about all I know. Re goding 333 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 3: this superficial stuff. Substantively, again, I think I'd have to 334 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 3: go back and look there where it's going to be 335 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:35,160 Speaker 3: a fourth debate. There never was. I don't believe there 336 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:38,160 Speaker 3: was a vice presidential debate that year. Gosh, I didn't 337 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 3: check that, but I don't think so. But again that 338 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 3: substantively they were not that great. Again, anecdotally, the person 339 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 3: who wrote about this at great length is a former 340 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 3: dean at Penn, Kathleen hall Jamison, and she wrote about 341 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 3: the data around what you know, viewers saw and thought 342 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 3: and all the rest. But anecdotally, I recall, you know, 343 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 3: many people thought, you know, kenn was still a dark horse. 344 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 3: Then you know, he's this Catholic guy running. He's from 345 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 3: this nobless, obliche family in Boston. There's rumors about his family, 346 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 3: some which are true. And Nixon is a much better 347 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 3: known personality. And of course it was important in Chicago 348 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 3: because this was, I think still is an overwhelmingly Catholic city. 349 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 3: And reportedly Kendy actually convinced a lot of voters in 350 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 3: industrial centers like Chicago that he was a capable guy. 351 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 3: Because remember, as a senator, what was he in his 352 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 3: first or second term? Not especially strong political career behind him. 353 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 3: But you know, for all I can remember reading about 354 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 3: those debates, almost nothing had to do with substance, and 355 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,160 Speaker 3: vicximp that it did. It mostly incur the substance. They 356 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 3: did not talk about aspect all I can say on 357 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 3: that subject. Again, I would urge anyone who's genuinely concerned 358 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 3: about this, you can go watch these on YouTube. 359 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,199 Speaker 1: Hey, yeah, and our producer is sending us this message 360 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: from Nixon's memoir, Yeah, he says. The second debate was 361 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,200 Speaker 1: scheduled for October seventh, eleven days later in Washington, I 362 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 1: knew I had to counter the visual impression of the 363 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 1: first debate. A four a day regimen of rich milkshakes 364 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:11,679 Speaker 1: helped me put on weight, and this time I agreed 365 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:12,439 Speaker 1: to use makeup. 366 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 3: That's great, that's great. I do think it's true. I mean, 367 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 3: I do remember Nixon from my teenage years, and the 368 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 3: guy was never a good performer on television. You know. 369 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:24,639 Speaker 3: One of the criticisms I suppose of that era was 370 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 3: that it made television the essential medium for national politics. 371 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 3: And your criticism is that's not a good thing. It 372 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 3: goes to the deal postman God you open with that, 373 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 3: it becomes more about entertainment values than substantive ones. To 374 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 3: this day, one of the harshest criticisms of the debates 375 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 3: as either are not real debates and be mostly entertainment. Right. Well, 376 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 3: both are true, but that doesn't mean they don't have. 377 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 1: Value, right. 378 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,199 Speaker 2: And I think that the scene that we're setting in 379 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 2: the nineteen sixty election was that Nixon and Kennedy were 380 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 2: kind of each other's foils in a lot of ways. 381 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:01,879 Speaker 2: For two white guys, they couldn't have been more different. 382 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 2: Nixon had famously always had a big chip on his 383 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,120 Speaker 2: shoulder about not growing up rich. 384 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 3: Not Plus, Eisenhower didn't thoroughly endorse. 385 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 2: Him, right, and he wasn't smooth in front of the cameras. 386 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 2: He was kind of a backroom dealer, and that's a 387 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 2: way in which he was most effective, whereas Kennedy was 388 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 2: a prep school New England, new money, very smooth, suave, poised, handsome, 389 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 2: handsome man again, kind of everything that Nixon, I think, 390 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,679 Speaker 2: in his heart of hearts, wanted to be. And there 391 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,399 Speaker 2: were obviously, as you mentioned, the Catholic question was a 392 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 2: big one on people's minds, and Nixon had publicly been 393 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,880 Speaker 2: saying I don't have any worries about a Catholic being president, 394 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 2: but behind the scenes he was stoking a lot of 395 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:59,159 Speaker 2: the anti Catholic interesting sentiment, and I think that putting 396 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 2: these two men side by side on television together is 397 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,920 Speaker 2: a great representation of just how different they were. 398 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 3: Yeah. 399 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really one of those foundational media texts. 400 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. 401 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, Actually think many of the presidential debates are. I mean, 402 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 3: if you retard of class on this, you might start 403 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,200 Speaker 3: with nineteen sixty and then you have to go all 404 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 3: the way forward to nineteen seventy six, where you have 405 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 3: Carter and Ford, and Ford makes that famous remark about 406 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 3: Poland not being under Soviet domination. I think that's the year. 407 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 3: And then in nineteen eighty Jimmy Carter refuses to appear 408 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 3: in the States with John Anderson. And of course I 409 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 3: think it's beginning in seventy six when Saturday eight Live 410 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 3: does an uninterrupted series of its own presidential debates where 411 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 3: Chevy Chase played Gerald Ford and you know, other SNL 412 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 3: people came to play other presidents and presidential candidates. And 413 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 3: then of course flash forward in twenty twenty where the 414 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 3: debates during COVID were kind of a disaster and that 415 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 3: was the reason why, according to them, the Biden campaign 416 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,640 Speaker 3: just pushed the Commission aside in twenty twenty four, and 417 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,160 Speaker 3: Trump didn't like the Commission either. Everybody on every side 418 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 3: or the political divides has accused the Commission of being 419 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,880 Speaker 3: somehow biased or partisan. Most of this is just not true, 420 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 3: it's just demonstrably not true. But they're an easy target 421 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 3: to kick around. And of course the Commission didn't exist 422 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 3: in nineteen sixty. 423 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: I was about to say, yeah, I'm curious, while we're 424 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 1: on the topic, what is the history of the Commission 425 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: When was it founded and also who is it made 426 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,360 Speaker 1: up of and how do they ensure that it's not biased? 427 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 3: Well, first of all, it's often accused of being bipartisan. 428 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 3: That would be illegal under federal election law. 429 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:36,920 Speaker 1: It is, by law non party, nonpartisan. Right. 430 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 3: This is why, no matter what the Wall Street Journal thinks, 431 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 3: you can't just have these things run by the campaigns 432 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 3: of the parties, because the Commission specifically provides for third 433 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 3: party candidates to participate if they have fifteen percent national 434 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 3: support in their total of five national polls. And you 435 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 3: remember in nineteen ninety two, Ross Brow was in all 436 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 3: three debates for that reason, and then he was excluded 437 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety six as he had no support. But 438 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 3: the commission came about because the League of Women the 439 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,959 Speaker 3: voters just didn't have the clout. The argument that the 440 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,640 Speaker 3: campaigns run the show was kind of true, while the 441 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,120 Speaker 3: League ran the debates because they didn't have the clout 442 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,439 Speaker 3: of first they even make these people show up. You know, 443 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 3: if you're an incumbent, it's not in your interest to debate. 444 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 3: And one of the reasons they happened in nineteen seventy 445 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 3: six is because Gerald Wober's thirty two points behind Jimmy Carter, 446 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 3: and he felt he had to debate, and Carter felt 447 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 3: that nobody knew who he was and he had to debate. 448 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 3: And then Ford close. He only lost the election by 449 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 3: two or three points. But after that, oh my gosh, 450 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 3: the campaigns, they would negotiate all the terms on the 451 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 3: most bizarre things. A lot of this was political jockey. 452 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 3: You know, what color pencils would be on the electern, 453 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 3: how tall would electns be, where would the water glasses be, 454 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 3: who speaks first, what would the topics be? And this 455 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,360 Speaker 3: is not how you want to have a debate. And 456 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 3: again the League kind of had to acquiesce in this 457 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 3: because if they didn't, the candidates would walk right. So 458 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 3: in nineteen eighty seven there were two different studies. One 459 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,920 Speaker 3: came from Harvard that was the one that Mino was 460 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 3: a part of. It came from the Kennedy Center, I believe, 461 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 3: another one, I want to say it came from JOHNS Hopkins. 462 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,400 Speaker 3: But then even both proposed some new organization to sponsored 463 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 3: these base and so out of the Harvard report came 464 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,679 Speaker 3: the proposal for the Commission, which is established in ninety 465 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,120 Speaker 3: seven and organizes its first debate in nineteen eighty eight, 466 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 3: and over time, the Commission really ran the show. Was 467 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 3: once true, but it's long in a month that the 468 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 3: candidates choose the moderators, they choose the topics, they choose 469 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 3: the timing, they don't choose anything. They still issue memorandum 470 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:43,160 Speaker 3: understanding and pretending to negotiate about things. That's just puffery, 471 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,199 Speaker 3: political puffery because it looks good for their constituents. But 472 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 3: the Commission really ran the show, and that including also 473 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 3: very importantly choosing the moderators. Right, And you know, I 474 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 3: forgot what year it was. It was what I think 475 00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 3: was the last year that the League ran the debate, 476 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 3: so that would have been eighty four. The two campaigns 477 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 3: went to a list of one hundred and three people 478 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 3: to finally choose a moderator. 479 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: Wow. 480 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, So the commissions put an end all that. 481 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 2: We're going to take a short break, stay with us. 482 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:30,399 Speaker 1: And we're back with United States of Kennedy. 483 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,879 Speaker 2: I think one of the most pervasive myths about the 484 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty debate, something that I was taught in school 485 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 2: in high school, was that if you watched it on TV, 486 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,719 Speaker 2: you've thought JFK one and if you listen to it 487 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 2: on the radio, you thought Nixon one. Where does this 488 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 2: myths originate? 489 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 3: I don't know, but I'm going to guess there's no 490 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 3: hard data on that. I'm going to guess there were 491 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 3: no social scientists who went out and did a scientifically 492 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 3: credible poll to kind of figure this out. I think 493 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 3: this is anecdotal, and you've seen contemporaneous newspaper accounts saying this, 494 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,119 Speaker 3: so that what that means is journalists talk to people, 495 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 3: which is swell, but it's hardly social science. Yeah, and 496 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 3: so it's believable if you've actually watched it. I don't 497 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 3: know if there's a place where one could go listen 498 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 3: to the audio, but I think for many of us 499 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,360 Speaker 3: we've had the experience of washing event or listening to it, 500 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 3: and it's quite reasonable to think that when you listen 501 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,639 Speaker 3: to event you cognitively process the whole thing differently than 502 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 3: when you watch it. I think it's a credible claim, 503 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:36,880 Speaker 3: but I don't think there's any data behind it. 504 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 1: And there's a couple of things. Polling was just so 505 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: much less accurate and so new than political pulling writ large. 506 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: And then the other thing, which is so obvious in retrospect, 507 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: but historically even to this day, radio audiences are more 508 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: conservative than television audiences in terms of like political content. 509 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 3: Is that because that's what the content is available on radio? 510 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 3: I mean, if I'm listening to politics on the radio, 511 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 3: it's overwhelmenly conservative, at least on over the air, but 512 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 3: even on satellite. I think this argument might be true. 513 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 1: And this is true from what I understand, at least 514 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 1: this is true from this era, through Rush Limbaugh, through 515 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,959 Speaker 1: a lot of religious radio stations, these right wing preachers, 516 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 1: and so to your point about social science methodology, it 517 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 1: seems like such an obvious confusion of causality versus what's. 518 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,400 Speaker 3: The we'd actually have to talk to a social science researcher. 519 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 3: I think Kathleen Hall Jamison might be deceased, but you'd 520 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:34,920 Speaker 3: be the one to ask about this. But I can't 521 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,880 Speaker 3: believe if he knew this was coming, that social scientists 522 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:39,919 Speaker 3: wouldn't have geared up an advance to kind of measure 523 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 3: audience responses. But maybe they didn't. 524 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 2: But I think to your point earlier about who had 525 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 2: televisions might also be something of a hint here, because 526 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 2: I think if obviously partisan demographics have shifted a lot, 527 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 2: but in the more rural parts of America that might 528 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,159 Speaker 2: have been more conservative. I think you would probably be 529 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 2: much more likely to only have a radio versus a television. 530 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,159 Speaker 3: Very possibly. I mean when televisions first became a consumer device, 531 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 3: they were stupid expensive. I mean back then it was 532 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 3: equivalent of buying a car. The major driver for selling television. 533 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 3: So that's with sports like it still is. And of 534 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,439 Speaker 3: course a lot of people watch television in places like 535 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 3: bars and department stores where it wasn't your set. It 536 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 3: was almost a community set, right I think you know 537 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:29,679 Speaker 3: with respect to that, you mentioned radio. The other thing 538 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:31,959 Speaker 3: to note that's changed over the years is the FCC 539 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 3: long ago during the Reagae administration abandoned the fairness doctor. 540 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 3: That was what made rush Limbaugh possible. You couldn't have 541 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 3: had a guy like that on the air without a 542 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 3: counter or the opposing point of view on Well, that's 543 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 3: long gone, so we don't worry about that anymore. 544 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 1: And I was thinking about the fairness doctrine when you 545 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: were talking about the equal time law, because it's a 546 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: similar idea, somewhat similar. 547 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 3: The equal time law is still in effect, and it 548 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 3: comes into play where you don't expect it. When Trump 549 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 3: ran for office in twenty sixteen. He had to leave 550 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 3: the Apprentice because that would have been considered candidate time. 551 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 3: If you appear on a late night talk show of 552 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 3: anything that's not a bona fide news of that triggers 553 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 3: at equal time provision. And you still have third party candidates, 554 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 3: some of whom you might not have ever heard of, 555 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 3: who will make equal time claims based on candidate appearances. 556 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 2: So another point that our researchers have tapped into was 557 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 2: that Nixon came across as much more polite. Nixon was 558 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 2: kind of on his best behavior during the debate. Interesting, 559 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 2: his entrain into political life, into public life was a 560 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 2: little bit uncomfortable. It was a little bit of a 561 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 2: square peg in a round hole. Yeah, and so he 562 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 2: came across as very polite and stiff. RFK in advising 563 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 2: his brother told JFK kick him in the balls. 564 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 3: That sounds like RFK advice too, That right exactly. 565 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 2: I know. 566 00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 1: Well, it's funny because their opposites, because Nixon is naturally 567 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 1: uncharismatic and is trying to be so polite that it 568 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: seems phony, whereas Kennedy is naturally charismatic and so is 569 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,239 Speaker 1: able to get away with being more aggressive because it 570 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 1: only makes him seem more presidential in this way. 571 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 3: Although it's interesting because for the longest time, and well 572 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 3: into the seventies and eighties, the wisdom for presidential debates 573 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 3: was that you do not attack your opponent, You do 574 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 3: not behave aggressively because that looks bad in front of 575 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 3: the audience. That's for the vice presidential debate, right, those guys, 576 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 3: those guys can slug it out, but you're supposed to. 577 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 3: In fact, who was great concern about appearing Obviously this 578 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 3: day is long past, but it was great concern about 579 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 3: appearing aggressive or belligerent. 580 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: Yes, concern long pasture. 581 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 3: Correct. Yeah. 582 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 1: The other thing is Kennedy talked to the audience, whereas 583 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: Nixon addressed the camera. Yes, the camera, which is such 584 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 1: an obvious thing that I'm sure is now. 585 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 3: I don't think it is obvious even today. If we 586 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:57,479 Speaker 3: take somebody who's never been in a television studio, they 587 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 3: will tell you look here, look there, don't look here. 588 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 3: And I'm not sure he had that coaching. And I'm 589 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 3: not even sure there was an audience for that one 590 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 3: in Chicago. You just had the moderators, right, But you 591 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 3: can see them when you watch the television, his eyes 592 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 3: flitting around on certain word to park them right. 593 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, it's interesting saying in real time people figure 594 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 1: out a new medium. I mean, it kind of reminds 595 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 1: me of when someone our age older trying to use 596 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 1: a new platform like TikTok. Because we grew up with 597 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 1: different you know, we're not as natural as a sixteen 598 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: year old speaking straight to camera. Every medium comes with 599 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: its own set of internal logic. I think part of 600 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: the reason people now are so cynical about televised debates 601 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 1: is because there's now so much research about what the 602 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 1: best way to come across is. It seems even more 603 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: phony when you see people just hitting their mark, you know, 604 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 1: like there. 605 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 3: You know. I mean the rap on President Trump is 606 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 3: that he disregards all of this advice. Yes, and his 607 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 3: mark is his mark, and that this is his authenticity. 608 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 3: But he's also such a student of television. That's that's 609 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 3: the true a lot of. 610 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 2: Experience, really, I mean, there's a guy who, above all 611 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 2: else knows how to be on TV. 612 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 3: That's sure. 613 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 1: Yes, it's his biggest talent. 614 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, you got me. You're right. 615 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 1: So, speaking of Trump, you are a literal expert on 616 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 1: presidential debates. I want to know what is the legacy 617 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 1: of this debate. I mean it is, as you mentioned, 618 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: one of the tent poles, one of the debates people 619 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 1: talk about when they talk about the history of debates. 620 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 1: But how did it influence how candidates after nineteen sixty acted, 621 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: how they attempted to stage manage debates, what they agreed 622 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 1: to versus what they didn't agree to, how the networks 623 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 1: approach debates. Well, Akunn, you don't have a debate for 624 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: six another one until for sixteen years till seventy six. 625 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 1: And again you have the league women voters, and you 626 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 1: have the Commission, and the candidates, of course prepare for 627 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 1: these things and they are told by the Commission with 628 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 1: the general topics will be so foreign policy, domess up policy, 629 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 1: the economy, whatever, but nothing beyond that. The heyday of debates, 630 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 1: in my view, was when, if you remember, Jim Larrr 631 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:00,120 Speaker 1: was the sole moderator. 632 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,720 Speaker 3: He was the PBS guy. He really ran them. Well, 633 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 3: I don't like journalists being moderators. I think it's a 634 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:09,480 Speaker 3: bad idea. Journalists have a strong incentive to make news 635 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 3: and that's not necessarily in the service of the debate. 636 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 3: You might remember when Bernard Shaw famously asked Mike tcaccas, 637 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 3: what do you do if his wife was raped? And 638 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 3: it was just meant to poke him in the eye. 639 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 3: You know, I thought that was horrible at the time, 640 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 3: but mister Tacaccus told me several years ago that knowing, 641 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 3: he thought that was a fair question. But again, that's 642 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 3: more about entertainment values than debates, So that's always been 643 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 3: the tension. I think the immediate question that concerns me is, well, 644 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 3: we have debates. Again, We only had debates in twenty 645 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 3: twenty four. Then they kick the commission aside, and the 646 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 3: only reason he had was because the race was close. 647 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 3: But in a future election, we have, you know, more 648 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 3: than eight to nine points separating the candidates. If I'm 649 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 3: the incumbent, I'm not debating. I have absolutely nothing to 650 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 3: gain and everything by lose. You can't win a debate, 651 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 3: but you can absolutely lose what Look at what appened 652 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 3: to Joe Biden. Look what appened to Rebac Obama in 653 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 3: that first debate with Mitt Romney. All of a sudden, 654 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 3: Mitt Romney seemed like a progressive Republican and Obama was 655 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,840 Speaker 3: not very well prepared and stumbled all over himself. So 656 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 3: substance aside, they do matter. So social science with them 657 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 3: is that they confirm people and what they already think. 658 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 3: But if you ask the candidates themselves, from Nixon and 659 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,880 Speaker 3: Kennedy forward, all of them will tell you that they 660 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 3: thought those debates made a substantial difference to the outcome 661 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 3: of the campaign, and in some cases, I mean, obviously 662 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:35,880 Speaker 3: in twenty twenty four, it disrupted the campaign. So the 663 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 3: big question for me is wh we have them again, 664 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,280 Speaker 3: and if we do, who will sponsor them? The network 665 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,800 Speaker 3: sponsored them in twenty twenty four. The campaigns and the 666 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:46,280 Speaker 3: parties cannot sponsor them. That would be illegal. Yeah, although 667 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 3: who you know is anything illegal anymore? I don't know. 668 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 2: So the next presidential debate is sponsored by Turning Points 669 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:54,760 Speaker 2: to USA, That's right, exactly. 670 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 3: Yes, Well they could do that, by the way. I mean, 671 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 3: anybody can sponsor debate, you just have to be credibly 672 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,399 Speaker 3: nonpartisan from the FEC's point of view. But I think 673 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 3: that the network's obviously have sponsor to the primary debates 674 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:09,839 Speaker 3: for years. I think one of the reasons the debate 675 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 3: have gotten a bad name is because the primary debates 676 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 3: are singularly awful. Yes, yeah, you have fifteen people. I say, 677 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 3: that's not a debate. That's the shouting match. Yes, when 678 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:20,919 Speaker 3: you're asking fifteen kendidates to raise or lowly your hand 679 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 3: or response to some prompt, Oh my, heaven'ts that's a 680 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 3: disserviceable thing. And I think the presidential debates of the 681 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,320 Speaker 3: tarnished as a result, and I think they're very valuable. 682 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 3: Other countries obviously think. So there's other ways to do debate. 683 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 3: You could actually do an Oxford cell debate or a 684 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,799 Speaker 3: debate a specific proposition. But we'll see. 685 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 2: I mean this, the nineteen sixty election was extremely close, 686 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 2: as we all know, was decided by about one hundred 687 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:47,840 Speaker 2: thousand votes. 688 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:49,880 Speaker 1: But I'm glad you brought this up, truly, because I 689 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 1: think that's another part of the common misconception people have, 690 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 1: just anecdotally, because there's this myth that, you know, JFK 691 00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 1: surprised everyone by winning the televised debate. I think I 692 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 1: grew up thinking that there was a landslide victory or something. 693 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 1: But as you're saying, it was very close. 694 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,839 Speaker 2: Oh, I was just going to see if you thought 695 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:09,919 Speaker 2: that it made a big difference one way or the other. 696 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 3: To the outcome of the election. Yeah, we can guess 697 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 3: all day at that one. But you know, there was 698 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 3: also stories about Mayor Daily, you know, as he was 699 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 3: want to do to fix the election in Chicago, right, so, 700 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 3: and that Chicago was the difference. I don't know, that's 701 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:30,400 Speaker 3: not my area, but yeah, very very close. And whether 702 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 3: the debates made a difference or not, I don't know 703 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,279 Speaker 3: what they did. I mean, Kennedy went on to become 704 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,280 Speaker 3: the Camelot President. He was the first true television president 705 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 3: in his whole you know, Camelot family and the whole thing. 706 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 3: So that really does It's more important for the future 707 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:47,840 Speaker 3: of television perhaps than it is for the future of 708 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:49,120 Speaker 3: the presidential campaigns. 709 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, we can argue all day about how 710 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 1: important it was, but yeah, it's not a coincidence that 711 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: the first, as you're saying, television president also happened to 712 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,799 Speaker 1: be young and attractive and charismatic and his wife was 713 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 1: a fashion icon. That they're going around and being interviewed 714 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 1: by television reporters in other countries. I mean, it can 715 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 1: be overstated by people that want to make some sort 716 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,440 Speaker 1: of determinist argument about the power of television, but it 717 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:15,839 Speaker 1: is at least somewhat true. 718 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 3: When there's no area, I'm actually a lot less concerned 719 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,480 Speaker 3: than you know, what is the effect on the outcome? 720 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,799 Speaker 3: Then I still believe that they're important in their own right, 721 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 3: and so I always react. I have skin in this game, 722 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,480 Speaker 3: so that note. But I react always when I hear 723 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 3: people dismiss these as entertainment, not important, a distraction from 724 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 3: the real issues. All those things are true to some degree. 725 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 3: But once again, this is the only place ever in 726 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:45,680 Speaker 3: the course of a presidential campaign where you see the 727 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 3: candidates together and a venue that they do not control 728 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:53,360 Speaker 3: and having to answer questions unmaneously. Yeah, and you know, 729 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 3: also move on their feet. That's what a president is 730 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,319 Speaker 3: supposed to do. We want people who are in a 731 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:01,239 Speaker 3: tough situation from sort of like jab Perry, and you know, 732 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 3: that's what they do. 733 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 1: And there's something to be said about how widely available 734 00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,400 Speaker 1: it is. I mean, going back to the Neil Postman's 735 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,239 Speaker 1: point about the Lincoln Douglas debates, I'm sure those are 736 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,560 Speaker 1: more substantive, but they also could not be watched by 737 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 1: hundreds of millions of people at any given time. 738 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 3: I'm so glad you keep referencing posts and I've actually 739 00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:21,000 Speaker 3: been meaning to reread that. 740 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:22,239 Speaker 1: You know, it's really been in. 741 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 3: The ether, didn't you write it? And partly in response 742 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:25,719 Speaker 3: to the Reagan presidency, I. 743 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 1: Think so, yes. And it's funny, like there are interesting 744 00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 1: little ticks he has, like he loves criticizing Sesame Street. 745 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 1: He thinks that it is a bad thing, that it 746 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,640 Speaker 1: is training children to think that all education should be entertaining, 747 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 1: which is so funny because now I don't know my 748 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 1: little niece, for example. If anything I'm pushing Sesame Street 749 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 1: has an alternative to. 750 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:49,719 Speaker 3: Things I think of, it is so much worse. Yeah, 751 00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,440 Speaker 3: paw Patrol exactly. I will say, though, it's true that 752 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 3: was always a criticism of Sesame Street that it also 753 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,440 Speaker 3: taught short attention spans. Yes, but I was too old 754 00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 3: for Sesame Street, but my baby sister watched it. It 755 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:01,799 Speaker 3: was the most watch television program in the world, and 756 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 3: I don't know how many different languages. But the perfect 757 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,319 Speaker 3: is the enemy of the good here in debates and 758 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:08,800 Speaker 3: in children's television. I'm always on the side of the 759 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:10,960 Speaker 3: people who want to do the good and are less 760 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:12,080 Speaker 3: obsessed with the perfect. 761 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 1: Well, that's a great place to end. If I've ever 762 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,759 Speaker 1: heard one. Okay, thank you so much. 763 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:19,319 Speaker 3: Yes, it's my pleasure. It's been a lot of fun. 764 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 2: So that's it for this week's episode. 765 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,800 Speaker 1: Subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all things 766 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: Kennedy every week. 767 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,240 Speaker 2: United States of Kennedy is hosted by me, Julia Clair 768 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:30,320 Speaker 2: and George Saveres. 769 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,279 Speaker 1: Original music by Joshua Chopolski. 770 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:34,840 Speaker 2: Editing by Graham Gibson. 771 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 1: Mixing and mastering by Doug Bame. 772 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,360 Speaker 2: Research by Dave Bruce and Austin Thompson. 773 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:41,120 Speaker 1: Our producer is Carmen Laurent. 774 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 2: Our executive producer is Jenna Cagel. 775 00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 1: Created by Lyra Smith. 776 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,400 Speaker 2: United States of Kennedy is a production of iHeart Podcasts.