1 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to WOKP Daily with Meet 2 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:19,439 Speaker 1: your Girl Danielle Moody, recording from the Home Bunker, Folks. 3 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: It is wild when I take off for a couple 4 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: of days and come back and things are just as bad, 5 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: if not worse, than they were the week prior. But 6 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:36,480 Speaker 1: that is where I find myself after coming back from 7 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: being in San Francisco for the Lesbians Who Tech Summit 8 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: that I have the opportunity to MC and co host, 9 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: and I will tell you know, it's really hard when 10 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: I'm on stage to be able to be in the news, 11 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: and so when I have to dive back in, it's 12 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: like I'm anticipating that things have changed, something has happened 13 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: that is better than what it was prior, and that 14 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: is certainly not the fucking case this week, coming back 15 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: to realize that Jim Jordan was unable to clinch the 16 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: speakership like Steve Scalise before him, that now there are 17 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 1: a band of nine idiots that are running for this 18 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:20,039 Speaker 1: position that need that requires two hundred and seventeen votes, 19 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: none of which these people have the ability to get. 20 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: Don't think that you should know who these folks are, 21 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 1: because no one knows who they are, including people inside 22 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 1: of their own fucking party. You have a majority of them, 23 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: if not all of them, voted to overturn the free 24 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 1: and fair election in twenty twenty. So there's you know, 25 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: hots off to those folks. And you know it is 26 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 1: I can't express enough at a time when we are 27 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: seeing such global unrest, we are wrestling with two fucking 28 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: wars that are happening right now that America is essentially funding, 29 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: because let us be real about that, that when you 30 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: look at Ukraine and you look at what is happening 31 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: to Gaza by Israel and in Israel, we're not in 32 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 1: a great fucking place. And the fact is we have 33 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 1: no House of Representatives that can approve the billions of 34 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: dollars that are necessary to support allies, to get humanitarian aid, 35 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: and to do whatever it is that we need to do. 36 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: Oh and by the way, keep our own fucking government funded, 37 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:28,799 Speaker 1: which that shut down is coming November seventeenth. If in fact, 38 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:34,079 Speaker 1: we don't get twelve bills through the House of Representatives 39 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: and the Senate that are able to fund government for 40 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: an entire year, when I say that, we are in 41 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: an absolute shit show, shit storm, shit Tornado. This is 42 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: what I fucking mean, and coming into the presidential election 43 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 1: where there are so many seats that are up. Not 44 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: only are we talking about the presidential but we're talking 45 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: about seats that are up in the Senate, seats that 46 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: are up in the House. I just really don't know 47 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: what Republicans are fucking running on. Right with their four 48 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 1: seat majority in the House, what are they saying, vote 49 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: for us, give us more seats so that we can 50 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:14,919 Speaker 1: show you just how fucking dysfunctional we are. It would 51 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: be so comical if the times weren't so goddamn stark 52 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: and serious, but they are right. And so I'm looking 53 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: around after having taken a few days, and I'm just like, wow, 54 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: so things have gotten even worse Because when you were 55 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: starting out with a oh, Eescalise and a Jordan is 56 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: who we're offering up, I'm like, no, there has got 57 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: to be better people than that, And Republicans have shown 58 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: me no, there are no better people. We just have 59 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: nine worse people who you don't know, Yeah, wild, wild folks, 60 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: And you know I know that right now there are 61 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: people who are quitting jobs, getting fired from jobs, getting 62 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: signed blind over their stances around what is happening in 63 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: Israel and Palestine, that there are people in these United States, 64 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: from a six year old Palestinian boy to now a 65 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: forty year old rabbi in Detroit. The hate is overspilling. 66 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 1: There is no way for us to watch the murders 67 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: of close to now five thousand civilians in Gaza and 68 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: think to ourselves, this is going well. These are people, 69 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: these are largely children, right, that are being taken out 70 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: as Israel goes to war with quote unquote Hamas, which 71 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: by the way, they have been at war with for decades. 72 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 1: So what makes this time any different other than the 73 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: fact that fourteen hundred right Israeli's war murdered in the 74 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: span of a week. So folks like I keep saying 75 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 1: this that hate just begets eight, violence begets violence, and 76 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 1: America coming out and saying that we're gonna continue funding 77 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: this without understanding the repercussions of what that is and 78 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 1: Joe Biden trying to align what is happening in the 79 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: Middle East with what is happening in Ukraine and Russia, 80 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: to me is a major fucking misstep. And I say 81 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: it as somebody who is not a foreign leader, who 82 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: is not a foreign relations expert, but is a person 83 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:33,479 Speaker 1: that believes in our collective humanity. These two things are 84 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: not the fucking same, and trying to paint with a 85 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: broad stroke is going to leave us. Leave this administration, 86 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:46,119 Speaker 1: I believe in a really bad place heading into twenty 87 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: twenty four. Not to mention changing gears real quick, that 88 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: Donald Trump still remains in a giant fucking pickle, as 89 00:05:55,839 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: you have Sidney Powell and Chesburro who have leaded guilty, 90 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 1: who are going to testify against Donald Trump, and the 91 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: other folks like, oh my god. You know, I think 92 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 1: that if I were to go away and come back 93 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: a year later, sadly, I don't think much will have changed. 94 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: So how we get through this with our sanity intact? 95 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 1: Dear friends, that is going to be the where the 96 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 1: real work is coming up next. I'm really looking forward 97 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 1: to you all getting to hear this conversation with award 98 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: winning journalist Vincent Bevins, whose new book is out now, 99 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: If We Burn the Mass Protest Decade and the Missing Revolution. 100 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: Vincent and I get into a conversation about his book 101 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: about the decade of protests, and you know, essentially where 102 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: we go from here. What we've learned over the last 103 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: ten years, and what the future of protesting looks like 104 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: given this state of our world, given the state of 105 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:07,119 Speaker 1: technology and social media, and how and where people gather 106 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: that conversation Coming up next, folks, I am very happy 107 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: to welcome to OKF Daily for the very first time 108 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: award winning journalist Vincent Bevins, whose new book If We Burn, 109 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: The Mass Protest Decade and the Missing Revolution is on 110 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: stands now, which examine how the so called mass Protest 111 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: decade failed to achieve meaningful change and what's next for 112 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: activists who sacrificed so much. Vincent, Welcome to the show. 113 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much. 114 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: So let's dive in and talk about what you are seeing, 115 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 1: what you saw as the mass protest decade, what led 116 00:07:55,160 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: you to writing this book, and talk to us about 117 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: bring us back to the last decade of upheaval right 118 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: of activism that kind of woke many people up, not 119 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: only in this country but around the globe. Yeah. 120 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean, I think there's two answers to the 121 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 2: question of how I came to this project, why I 122 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 2: decided to write a book like this. First of all, 123 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 2: as far as we know, more people took part in 124 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 2: mass protests around the world from twenty ten to twenty 125 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 2: twenty than at any other point in human history. The 126 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 2: wave of mass protests that really started in North Africa, Teunisia, 127 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 2: and Egypt in twenty ten and then went basically global 128 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 2: over the next ten years exceeded even the very contentious 129 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 2: nineteen sixties. But in many cases, did we not only 130 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 2: see things go nowhere, did we not only see protests 131 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 2: simply not work because that would be less surprising. I mean, 132 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 2: that was basically what happened back in two thousand and 133 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 2: three with the protests against the Iraq War. What was 134 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 2: very strange is the a parent phenomenon that many mass 135 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 2: protests that seemed to be successful at first actually ended 136 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 2: up leading to the opposite of what they asked for 137 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 2: if you took a long enough timeline and examined what 138 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 2: really happened in the years afterwards. So that's this big, big, 139 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 2: sort of global question that seemed to present itself to 140 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 2: me into a lot of people that I think do 141 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 2: want to change the world. And then my own particular 142 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 2: relation to this is that I was in Brazil in 143 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 2: twenty thirteen when a mass protest organized by leftists and 144 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 2: anarchists ultimately created the conditions, not on purpose, not right away, 145 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 2: for the far right to take more power in that country. 146 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 2: So it's kind of a personal story, but I think 147 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 2: it is one that is quite relevant all around the planet. 148 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,559 Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about those places in which the opposite 149 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: occurred from the mass protest that did take place, because 150 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 1: I think that that is important. I think that you know, oftentimes, 151 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,599 Speaker 1: as someone you know myself who has participated in countless, 152 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:59,559 Speaker 1: countless marches, countless protests over the course of my political career, 153 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: it has always been the fall safe right, if you 154 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 1: don't like something, if you want something to change, get 155 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: hundreds thousands or hundreds of thousands of people into the street, 156 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: and then the change you want will happen. I'm making 157 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: it obviously seem a little easier than we know that 158 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: it is, but that's essentially the goal. When the opposite occurs, though, 159 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: I think that it's not only shocking to those that 160 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: did take to the streets, but those that are watching. 161 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: And I'm wanting to get a sense of in your 162 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: personal experience in Brazil, why do you think that that happened? Right? 163 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:39,679 Speaker 2: No, I think, and I think that quick summary of 164 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 2: the way that we view these things is quite right. 165 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:44,199 Speaker 2: I think that deep down that's kind of an assumption 166 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 2: that quite a lot of people had, definitely in Brazil, 167 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 2: certainly in countries like Egypt, certainly in many other countries 168 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:53,839 Speaker 2: around the world, this idea that when there is injustice, 169 00:10:54,200 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 2: when elites commit abuses against citizens, the natural, if not 170 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 2: the only, if not the best, even the natural way 171 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 2: to respond to that is a mass protest. And I 172 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 2: try in this book to establish how that came together. Historically, 173 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:11,079 Speaker 2: this wasn't always the case. Even as recently in the 174 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 2: fifties and early sixties, people would not have thought that 175 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 2: that was the natural way to respond to injustice. But 176 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 2: in our certainly by the twenty tens, I think that 177 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 2: assumption was widely held, and it was held I think 178 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 2: by me in a deep, deep part of my soul. 179 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 2: And as you said, the idea was that if you 180 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 2: got enough people, if everybody sort of came out, that 181 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 2: would deliver the results. But what often happened, and I'll 182 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 2: use Brazil as an example, I think Egypt is another 183 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 2: a good one, is that the huge amounts of people 184 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 2: that do come out to the streets Number one may 185 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 2: not be the exact same people that you expected to 186 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 2: come out. So in the case of Brazil, you really 187 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:49,439 Speaker 2: got a strange situation in which the new arrivals onto 188 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:51,599 Speaker 2: the streets had different ideas of what the protest was 189 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 2: about than the original arrivals. Or number two. So many 190 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:00,719 Speaker 2: people can come to the streets. This schematic that you 191 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 2: just outlined can be so can be so successful that 192 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 2: actually a government is dislodged from power, or a government 193 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 2: is in a position where they are so afraid of 194 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 2: losing power that they would be willing to give something 195 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 2: up to the streets in order to hold onto power. 196 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 2: But in that case of this unexpected power vacuum, and 197 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 2: in that case of an unexpected moment when results can 198 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 2: be seized or power can be seized, the kind of 199 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:30,199 Speaker 2: protest that became dominant in the twenty tens, I think 200 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 2: a protest in general, but specifically the kind of protest 201 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 2: that became dominant in the twenty tens has a very 202 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 2: hard time taking advantage of that power vacuum. So often 203 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 2: what we saw, to the great horror of the original activists, 204 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 2: say in Egypt or in Brazil, is other actors, whether elites, 205 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 2: foreign governments, which intervene. But whoever's around and savvy enough 206 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:52,959 Speaker 2: and wants to sees that power vacuum, sees step into 207 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 2: the power vacuum and sees sees the day for their 208 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:59,199 Speaker 2: own purposes. And they often have very very different ideas 209 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 2: about how to change society and the people who organized 210 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 2: their protests and they may indeed have the exact opposite ideas, 211 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:07,959 Speaker 2: but they're ready, they're organized, and they step into the 212 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,839 Speaker 2: vacuum that was accidentally, unexpectedly created by huge amounts of 213 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 2: people in the streets and take things forward in their 214 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 2: own direction. 215 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: I mean, it's pretty you know, it's an extraordinary feat, 216 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: right to get people organized in such a way where 217 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 1: they go out into the streets, right, Like I think 218 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 1: about twenty twenty, I think about the most recent mass 219 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: protests that we had seen in this country that did 220 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: spark global outrage, and that was on the murder of 221 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: George Floyd, where we saw, in the midst of a 222 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:47,319 Speaker 1: global health pandemic, pre having vaccines and really understanding how 223 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 1: this pandemic was spreading, people take to the streets in 224 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 1: their outrage and collective grief right that they experienced at 225 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: the hands of watching a murder take place on video, 226 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 1: and so I kind of want to get your thoughts 227 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: there on how you saw the difference in twenty twenty 228 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,560 Speaker 1: versus let's say twenty ten, right at the beginning of 229 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: the decade that you're viewing, what changed during this time, Vincent, 230 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: and like, why was it so palpable in twenty twenty. 231 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think I think that's a really good question. 232 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 2: I think there's maybe three ways I can answer it 233 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 2: if I can go sort of later. I think that 234 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 2: first of all, across what I call the mass protest decade, 235 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 2: often the spark, often the thing that does get people 236 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 2: onto the streets is a shocking case of police brutality. 237 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 2: So this is what we forget. This, this is what started. 238 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 2: This is what started the so called Arab spring. This 239 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 2: in Tunisia, it was originally a fruit vendor that was harassing, 240 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 2: that was protesting harassment from a local official. In Egypt, 241 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 2: it was a protest against police brutality. In Brazil, it 242 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 2: was viral images of a crackdown on ultimately journalists that 243 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 2: set off set the country on fire. So this kind 244 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 2: of thing is I think extremely powerful. I think that 245 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 2: across many many national and economic conditions, across countries. Basically 246 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 2: you have an awareness that police brutality is real. It 247 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 2: is the way that the existing power structure reproduces itself, 248 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 2: that it stays in power, and it is quite shocking 249 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 2: when regular people see it. But the second thing I 250 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 2: will say is that you said it's quite hard to 251 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 2: get people organized to come out like this. I think 252 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 2: that actually what is so powerful, or indeed, initially it 253 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 2: seems to be powerful about this particular type of protest. 254 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 2: And I lay out all of these various ingredients in 255 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 2: the book, and I expend with where they come from, 256 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 2: but just to summarize what it is, I say that 257 00:15:53,760 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 2: these are apparently spontaneous, leaderless, digitally coordinated, horizontal to the 258 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 2: organized mass protests. And I think the thing that makes 259 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 2: them so successful and far far more successful than a 260 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 2: lot of the people that put together this specific recipe 261 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 2: had ever expected, is that you don't require much organization. 262 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 2: Like everybody can see a viral video at two pm 263 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 2: and be on the streets at five pm and or 264 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 2: at two ten pm and not necessarily know each other, 265 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 2: not necessarily have the same ideas as to what would 266 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 2: you what you would do if you know you were 267 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 2: to be successful, if you were to, you know, I 268 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 2: don't think in twenty twenty the goal would have been 269 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 2: or you would have necessarily wanted to, like overthrow the 270 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 2: government of the United States. Maybe some people did, but 271 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 2: certainly if that were the ultimate goal, I think people 272 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 2: would have different ideas about how what was supposed to 273 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 2: happen afterwards. And so the question of this type of 274 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 2: organization of people, people coming together around a response to 275 00:16:54,200 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 2: a particular active injustice is really really good at mobilizing people, 276 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 2: but it doesn't require pre existing organization. So in the 277 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,679 Speaker 2: case of many other countries in what I call the 278 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 2: mass protest decade, they got onto the streets with very 279 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 2: very different ideas of what they were supposed to be 280 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 2: there for, and then they ended up there fighting, expelling 281 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 2: each other from the streets, having real battles over the 282 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:23,160 Speaker 2: future of the movement. And if there had been sort 283 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 2: of and again this is a very very difficult thing 284 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 2: to do. If you had the kind of organizations which 285 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 2: would have been more common in the fifties and sixties, 286 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 2: you probably would have had some pre existing understanding of 287 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 2: how to work together in the streets. But again that 288 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 2: was very very difficult to put together. The Internet in general, 289 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 2: but specific types of social media firms that we saw 290 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 2: become dominant twenty tens made it very very easy to 291 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 2: get people together, at least on the streets. So the 292 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 2: question in my book specifically, I focus on January first, 293 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 2: twenty ten to January first, twenty twenty. But I've been 294 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:00,440 Speaker 2: very gratified to hear that a lot of people that 295 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 2: were intimately involved in organizing around racial justice and police 296 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 2: brutality in the United States over those years found they 297 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 2: told me that certain other things in other countries resonated 298 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 2: with things that they had been through. I was really, 299 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 2: you know, grateful to hear that. But I don't specifically 300 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 2: go into exactly twenty twenty. But to answer your final 301 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 2: question in my three part answer to your to your 302 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 2: very your good question, because it because it had so 303 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 2: much in it, I think not that much changed. Really. 304 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 2: I think, really kind of by twenty twenty, you had 305 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:34,400 Speaker 2: the reproduction of the model that was in I don't 306 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 2: want to say in style because that makes it sound 307 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,160 Speaker 2: a little bit too weak, but that had been seen 308 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,639 Speaker 2: as natural and effective and the obvious way to respond 309 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:47,479 Speaker 2: to injustice, back to basically Takoir Square in Egypt, in 310 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:49,679 Speaker 2: twenty eleven, and I think the strange thing about this 311 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 2: decade is that a lot of a lot of the 312 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 2: most powerful or seemingly powerful methods get reproduced even after, 313 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,199 Speaker 2: you know, not only in very very different national situations, 314 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 2: but after it's becomes clear that they didn't work out 315 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 2: in the original case. So Egypt, for example, by twenty thirteen, 316 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 2: just to list one of the quick examples of how 317 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,359 Speaker 2: things got worse. By twenty thirteen, there was a coup 318 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 2: which derailed the incipient democratic revolution in Egypt and installed 319 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 2: the dictator that was even worse. So I think the 320 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,200 Speaker 2: ease with which this kind of thing can come together 321 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 2: in the era of digital connectivity, which is often I 322 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 2: think a false connected, like we feel like we're connected, 323 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 2: but really we're sitting at home alone looking at our computers, 324 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 2: the ease with which this kind of connectivity allows for 325 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 2: a certain type of protest to come together didn't really change, 326 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 2: I think from twenty ten to twenty twenty. I think 327 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,439 Speaker 2: it is kind of the same approach that we saw 328 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 2: at the beginning. 329 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 1: How do you think that the advent of misinformation and 330 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 1: just you know, lies, alternative facts, these kinds of troll 331 00:19:55,720 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: farms play into the willingness and the ability for people 332 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: to glean information quickly download it, and then get into 333 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 1: the streets. 334 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think this is a big thing that changed. 335 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 2: This is one thing that does absolutely change from twenty 336 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 2: ten to twenty twenty. I'm not that old, but I'm 337 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 2: old enough to remember something that is often shocking to 338 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 2: like properly young people that I speak to that two 339 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 2: thousand and eight, two thousand nine, ten, twenty eleven. The 340 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:29,919 Speaker 2: dominant idea, the dominant approach to the Internet was to 341 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 2: believe that anything that happened because of the Internet, anything 342 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:37,679 Speaker 2: that happened because of social media, was inherently progressive, Like 343 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,640 Speaker 2: the Internet would just make the world more transparent, more democratic, 344 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 2: people would have more access to truth, more people would 345 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 2: be able to raise their voices. Whatever you thought should 346 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,439 Speaker 2: happen to the global system. You thought that the Internet 347 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:53,360 Speaker 2: was going to push us there. Now, slowly across the decade, 348 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 2: specifically in the US, by like twenty fifteen twenty sixteen, 349 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:00,400 Speaker 2: we started to realize a couple things. One we didn't 350 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 2: get like the internet full stop. We didn't get the 351 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 2: Internet in the abstract. We got a specific set of 352 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 2: online experiences that were shaped by for profit firms which 353 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 2: manipulate what we see in order to some more advertising 354 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 2: that that moves certain things to the top of your 355 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 2: feed based on what they think will keep you glued 356 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 2: to your phones. We didn't just get like the Internet 357 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 2: in its full in its full power, right, we got 358 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,439 Speaker 2: a specific type of Internet, and by twenty sixteen, I 359 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:29,959 Speaker 2: think people started to realize, like, oh, anybody, you can 360 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 2: use the Internet to say whatever, right, powerful, powerful individuals, governments, 361 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 2: corporations figured out how to do viral posts. They figured 362 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,640 Speaker 2: out how to spread the message that they wanted to spread. 363 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,640 Speaker 2: And I think by twenty twenty, twenty one, twenty twenty three, 364 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 2: if you think about sort of the way that liberal 365 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 2: media in the United States would cover a apparently spontaneous 366 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,160 Speaker 2: mass of people marching on a capitol because of something 367 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 2: they saw online back in twenty ten, that would have 368 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,120 Speaker 2: been read as necessarily good. In twenty twenty three, people 369 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 2: might think, Okay, but who are these guys, Like, what 370 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 2: are they doing? What did they see online? What part 371 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,119 Speaker 2: of the Internet have they have they been hanging out in? 372 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 2: And I think this is something that is a reversal 373 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,199 Speaker 2: that is really unfortunate, because I don't think that the 374 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 2: Internet had to be that way. But the Internet that 375 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,440 Speaker 2: we now live on is that way, and that really 376 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 2: affects the ways that what seemed to be so libratory 377 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:26,120 Speaker 2: about movements brought together partially by social media because many 378 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 2: many other factors bring them together. There's all the material 379 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 2: and real societal factors that bring people together. But the 380 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,439 Speaker 2: movements that are brought together by partially social media end 381 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 2: up having more problems than they should. 382 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 1: If we had the Internet that I think that we 383 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 1: could do you think, then, Vincent, to be honest, it's 384 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: not as if the genie is going to go back 385 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:48,959 Speaker 1: in the bottle, right in terms of the Internet and 386 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: how we see it and what we had dreamt about 387 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 1: the democratization of information, right like that was the thing 388 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,360 Speaker 1: was that there were all these gatekeepers, whether you were 389 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 1: looking at you know, networks or you're looking at studios, 390 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 1: and that the Internet was going to be this gatekeeper 391 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:10,120 Speaker 1: lists place right where everyone had a voice and could 392 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,639 Speaker 1: be an eyewitness reporter and so on and so forth. 393 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:15,640 Speaker 1: The genie is not going to go back in the bottle. 394 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,400 Speaker 1: But do you think that because of how we now 395 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 1: understand the Internet to be this force of capitalism right, 396 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 1: end of misinformation, that we then at some point kind 397 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: of revert back to the original contours of what organizing 398 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: and protesting was. 399 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think absolutely. I think your last point, I 400 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 2: mean to do this book to reconstruct this work of history, 401 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,360 Speaker 2: and it's really like a story. I think people will 402 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 2: see different lessons in it based on the way that 403 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 2: they come to the story of the decade. But to 404 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 2: construct it, I do in interviews with two hundred, two 405 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,440 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty people around the world in twelve countries, 406 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 2: and a lot of people come to the conclusion that 407 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 2: you just outlined at the end of your question that 408 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 2: it might be harder, it might take more work, but 409 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 2: getting together and really meeting people and really forming the 410 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 2: kind of organizations that allow us to work collectively, to 411 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 2: work together, hand in hand to build a better world. 412 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 2: That's something we can't give up on. And then the 413 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:26,119 Speaker 2: first part of your question, I think the loss you know, 414 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 2: you can't put the genie back in the bottle, I 415 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 2: think ultimately in a strange way, relates to one of 416 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:32,639 Speaker 2: the other themes that really energes in the book, and 417 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 2: that is that this that scheme of the you outlined, 418 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 2: I think so succinctly of like we thought to just okay, 419 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 2: bad thing happens people in streets, lots of people. 420 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 1: In the streets, right yeah, and. 421 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,360 Speaker 2: Then resolution right like this right all right. I think 422 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 2: this all was related to a sort of deep optimism 423 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 2: about technology, but also about the progress of history in general, 424 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,119 Speaker 2: Like I talk a little bit about it in the 425 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 2: book what I call the Ideology of Progress. Martin Luther 426 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 2: King has a very famous aout where he says, like, 427 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 2: you can't just like assume progress is going to happen. 428 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 2: You have to make it happen. So one million percent 429 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 2: agree that you can't put the genie back in the bottle. 430 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 2: And I also agree that it's not easy to win 431 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 2: back democratic control over the means of communication, like the 432 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 2: the the environment online that we that we live our 433 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:22,679 Speaker 2: lives these days like nothing like no magical force, no 434 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,399 Speaker 2: history you know, no no new tool, no new you know. 435 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:28,439 Speaker 2: The passage of time is not going to do it 436 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:32,159 Speaker 2: for us. It would require just like more effective protest 437 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 2: movements in the future, I think will require careful analysis 438 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 2: of what we can get done and then building building 439 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 2: connections with other people to try to fight fight to 440 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 2: do it, Like it's it's going to be hard. You 441 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 2: can't snap your fingers and get back to the possible 442 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 2: internet we all envisioned. It's going to take like building 443 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,479 Speaker 2: connections with other people and hard work to fight people 444 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 2: that want. 445 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: To keep it that way, you know, because I I 446 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,679 Speaker 1: do I think about it in the way that you know, Again, 447 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: the advent of social media, right, was about connecting people, 448 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,440 Speaker 1: was about us, you know, being able to find those 449 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 1: friends that we might have lost touch with, being able 450 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: to see family that we no longer able to gather 451 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 1: with at the kitchen table on Sunday evenings like you 452 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 1: know to be. And but what has happened, right, is 453 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: that you no longer see those feeds no right, that 454 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 1: those feeds you know, are few and far between, the 455 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: things that are overly advertising to you and the things 456 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: that you're being pushed in the algorithm to see. And 457 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:36,959 Speaker 1: so I almost believe that maybe that is kind of 458 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 1: the put that the going back is the way forward. 459 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,439 Speaker 1: And I guess I will I will end with that 460 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 1: question and ask you, like, as you look back and 461 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 1: you reflect on this story of the last decade, what 462 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: what what insight does it provide you for the next decade? 463 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: The one that we are currently in. And do you 464 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 1: see it as a reverting back as a way to 465 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 1: move forward? 466 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I ideally, when you move forward, you 467 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 2: always learn from. And indeed, these two hundred, two hundred 468 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 2: and fifty people that sat down with me over the 469 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 2: last four years and often shared very, very difficult experiences 470 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 2: would not have done so if they did not believe 471 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 2: that you could learn from. So ideally, the situation that 472 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,360 Speaker 2: they would like to see I'm not speaking for myself 473 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 2: now is a world in which ten fifteen years ago 474 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 2: from now, sorry, in twenty thirty twenty thirty five, you 475 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 2: can look back at the apparent failures of the twenty 476 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:34,479 Speaker 2: tens and see, actually what are the seeds of ultimate 477 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 2: victories in the future. But for that to happen, you 478 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,159 Speaker 2: do not go back, I think, but you do. You 479 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 2: must study very carefully, try to learn from and then 480 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,879 Speaker 2: incorporate as time as time, whether we like it or not, 481 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 2: ceases endless lyon right like there will be more years coming, 482 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 2: there will be more struggles. And the whole motivation that 483 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,400 Speaker 2: these people had to spend time with me just a journalists, 484 00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 2: and that's ever sort of carry out a revolution on 485 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,160 Speaker 2: my mind is to get together as humanity and try 486 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 2: to learn from what happened recently. 487 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 1: Fantastic Vincent, thank you so much for making the time 488 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 1: to join wilkaf Folks. The book is If We Burn, 489 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 1: The Mass Protest Decade and the Missing Revolution. It is 490 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: on stands now, and folks, including the New Yorker, has 491 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 1: raved that your clear eyed, sympathetic account of the unfulfilled 492 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 1: promise of these protests leaves the reader with a bold 493 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 1: vision of the future. Folks, get it now. That is 494 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: it for me today, Dear friends, on woke as always. 495 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 1: Power to the people and to all the people. Power. 496 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: Get woke and stay woke as fuck.