1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. In the last moments, the 2 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:34,200 Speaker 1: Alex Murderague double murder trial has been put on hold 3 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: and the entire courthouse has been evacuated due to a 4 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:42,599 Speaker 1: reported bomb threat. And you know when I told you 5 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:46,199 Speaker 1: I love this judge, Judge Neman. He reminds me so 6 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: much of the judge that I tried cases in front of. 7 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: Judge Neman as calm as a cucumber, very quietly says, quote, 8 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: ladies and gentlemen, we have to evacuate the building at 9 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: this time, so we will be in recess until we 10 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: discover what's going on, he says in a very calm voice. 11 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: And everybody gets up and walks off. Meanwhile, outside, reporters 12 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:15,759 Speaker 1: and journalists are running like crazy. But the jury has 13 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: been taken out of the courthouse due to a bomb threat. Gee, 14 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 1: I wonder who would have done that? Who would want 15 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: the testimony delayed? I mean, I hope I'm right, But 16 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:33,759 Speaker 1: do we really think that there is a bomb at 17 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:39,400 Speaker 1: the Colinton County Courthouse. We'll find out, guys. I mean, see, Grace, 18 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:41,559 Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us. There 19 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: is a recess and the bomb threat was time coincidentally 20 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: write in lunchtime with me in all star panel to 21 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: make sense of what has happened in the courtroom in 22 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: the last couple of hours. First of all, gunshot residue 23 00:01:56,160 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: has appeared on more of Alex Murdog's clothes. First of all, 24 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: take a less an hour cut four. Were there any 25 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: gunshot residue? What'd you find on the shirt? So for 26 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 1: the white T shirt, from the particle lift that was 27 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: collected from the right sleeve, right chest area, two particles 28 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: characteristic of gunshot primarisity were found, and from the left sleeve, 29 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:18,839 Speaker 1: left chest area the particle lift collected. From there one 30 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 1: particle characteristic of gunshot primarisity was found. In my opinion 31 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:25,679 Speaker 1: is that that object, this T shirt was either in 32 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,679 Speaker 1: the vicinity to the discharge of a firearm or came 33 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: into contact with something that had gunshot primary residue on it. 34 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:33,919 Speaker 1: Can you tell me what did you located any particles 35 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: and where they were all the shorts? Please yes, sir. 36 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: On the right side, right groin area there were two 37 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: particles located and confirmed, and then on the left growing 38 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: area there was one particle located and confirmed. My opinion 39 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 1: is that that they were these this pair of shorts 40 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: would were either in the vicinity to the discharge of 41 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 1: a firearm or a kingdom in contact with something that 42 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: had gunshot primary residue on it. Gunshot residues found on 43 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: the clothing of Alex they're talking about on his shirt 44 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: and his shorts. Now, recall he was wearing something, wearing 45 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: something completely different that afternoon at Moselle, which is their 46 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: hunting lodge. Why the wardrobe change, But that said gunshot 47 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 1: residue is found on those clothes, the T shirt and 48 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: the shorts. With me an all star panel, IRV Brandt 49 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 1: is joining me. This guy has traveled all over the 50 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: world prosecuting cases, working on cases for the US government, 51 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: the Marshals Services d J. He's written two books, Solo Shot, 52 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: Curse of the Bluestone and Flying Solo, both on Amazon. 53 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: IRV Brandt, that's not good. You've got gunshot residue on 54 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 1: your shirt and your pants the night that your wife 55 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: and son are gunned down. That's correct, Nancy. Though defense 56 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: has always said that the cases circumstantial, it's not direct evidence, 57 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: and it's true, but circumstantial evidence doesn't lie. And gunshot 58 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: residue on your shirt and on your shorts is devastating 59 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: to the defense. I don't know how they're going to 60 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,919 Speaker 1: possibly counter that. I bet they'll find a way, because 61 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: as much h double l that I've been giving to 62 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: the league defense attorney Hart Pootlan, he's still one wily 63 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: guy in the courtroom. They'll come up with something. Ted 64 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: Williams joining me. Everybody you know Ted Williams, high profile 65 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: defense attorney, former Washington DC police detective, Foxy's contributor start 66 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: in a national TV show, Power of Attorney, Ted, thanks 67 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: for being with us. Now, Ted, what do you make 68 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: of this bomb threat? A bomb hasn't gone off yet, 69 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: but what they did succeed in Dewey is delaying this testimony. Ted, 70 00:04:53,760 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 1: you know, NASA's very interesting that the bomb scenario came 71 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: into play just as one of the witnesses was testifying 72 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 1: here at noon. It seems to me that or there's 73 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 1: somebody out there or somebody's who are trying to or 74 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 1: should we say, interfere in this case. I'm like you, Nancy, 75 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: I like the way the judge was cool as a cucumber. 76 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: I mean, the judge just said, hey, look, you know, 77 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 1: let's stop here, and then he announced that they had 78 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: to be an evacuation of the courthouse. That's very interesting 79 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: that it happened at this immediate time. Maybe they'll be 80 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 1: able to ferret it out where that information came from. 81 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:48,239 Speaker 1: You know, I find it the timing very unusual. Guys, 82 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: for those of you who just joining us, we are 83 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,479 Speaker 1: alive at the courthouse with the latest, and the latest 84 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 1: is everybody went running. Now, the judge didn't run. I 85 00:05:55,960 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: can guarantee you that that judge called cool, collected, dignified, hardline. 86 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,479 Speaker 1: I guarantee you he walked out with poise, as did 87 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 1: his whole staff. Now as far as everybody else, who 88 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: was nothing but tailhole and elbows, that's all you could see. 89 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 1: But I'm looking at the timing, the timing. Why now, why, 90 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: right now, at this juncture of the trial, does somebody 91 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: call in a bomb threat that said back to you, 92 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 1: Ted Williams. Now, we know I'm going to take this 93 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: everything you say with a box of salt, because you 94 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: are a veteran defense attorney as well as a former cop. 95 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: But you know, when gunshot residue turns up on the 96 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 1: clothes you're wearing the night your wife and son are 97 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: shot dead, it's not a good look, Ted, and Nancy, 98 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, it is not a good look. But 99 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: there's always a defense for it, I believe, and I 100 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 1: think that he may here, You may hear at some 101 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:02,280 Speaker 1: stage that hey, having guns and shooting guns at Mozelle 102 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: is something that was always done there and that there 103 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: And the problem with the gunshot, with the residue the 104 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 1: shot residue is that they're not able to say specifically 105 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: when that residue was got on those clothes. So it 106 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: could have been that night, it could have been later, 107 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: it could have been two days before. So that is 108 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: certainly something that is out there, and I don't think 109 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: it's just clearly explanatory under the circumstances here, Nancy, can 110 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: I interject it? Well, this is it? Start to Bethany. 111 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany. Now, I know that you know we all 112 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: agree on the panel, you know more than all of 113 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: us put together. But I didn't know that gunshot residue 114 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 1: was part of your training as a Beverly Hills psychoanalyst. Well, 115 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: the winning part of my training is that he was 116 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:01,239 Speaker 1: struggling with opioid addiction, or maybe he wasn't struggling, Maybe 117 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: he loved his opioid addiction. But when you are an 118 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: addict like that, you are messy, and I think a 119 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: lot of people will find it difficult to believe that 120 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: if he did commit this crime, he would be so 121 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: messy as to wear his own clothing, have the guns 122 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: shot residue on it, you know, leave an obvious trail 123 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: behind him. But opioid abuse lowers your connection to reality, 124 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: and it reduces your connection and attachment to everyone around you. 125 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: So somebody struggling with opioid addiction like this would not 126 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: feel the love towards his wife and son that he 127 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:44,199 Speaker 1: once did. Now, remember Alex Murdoch, he pulled a lot 128 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: of people into his web. If you listen to the 129 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: trial testimony yesterday and today, Jeanie believed him for what 130 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: how many years? Annett believed him. He charmed them. He 131 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:58,079 Speaker 1: called a net from his rehab and said, I love you. 132 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 1: I'm just sorry for everything I've So the fact that 133 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: he pulls so many people into his orbit until they 134 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: have a dawning of consciousness that he's committing crimes means 135 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: that whoever planned that bomb threat was also one of 136 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: many people who got pulled into his orbit, and that's 137 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 1: going to be an interesting thing is his trial proceeds 138 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: like who has been conned by him? Who has been 139 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 1: manipulated and charmed by him? And all these trolls and 140 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 1: people out there who are now going to try to 141 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 1: disrupt the testimony as the defense is examining the witnesses. 142 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,199 Speaker 1: Dodor Michelle Dupre also joining me. I've got with me 143 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall's psychoanalyst. You can find her at Dodtor 144 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall dot com. I think what doctor Bethany just said, 145 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:45,959 Speaker 1: and I'm trying to interpret it in regular people talk, 146 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: as I call it, is that if he's high as 147 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:51,839 Speaker 1: a kite, his love for his wife, if there is 148 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: any left, and his sons out the window, he is 149 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 1: just getting a solution to his problems. His son Paul 150 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: caused a multi milli million dollar lawsuit to be filed 151 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: after against the family after he crashed a boat and 152 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: a beautiful young teen girl flies off to her death. 153 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:13,839 Speaker 1: He's dead. That's gonna be resolved. His wife, according to 154 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: what we've been told there on the ground, was looking 155 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: at divorce attorneys, which means forensic accounting, which means she's 156 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: going to find out he's been snorting up or doping 157 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 1: up all the money. She's dead, So that's solved. When 158 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: you're high as a kite on opioids, you're not thinking rationally. 159 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 1: I think that's what doctor Bethany just said in a 160 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: yes no, Doctor Bethany, is that what you just said? Yes? 161 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Greece God to Michelle Dupree. I'm 162 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 1: leaving our other gunshot residue expert psychoanalyst from Beverly Hills, 163 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,679 Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall, to go to doctor miss l. Dupree. 164 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: And let me just tell you that, in addition to 165 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:12,439 Speaker 1: being a former detective, she is a pathologist, she is 166 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 1: a medical examiner, and she's the author of Homicide Investigation 167 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: Field Guide, which is some seriously good reading. Doctor Dupree. 168 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: You know I said, gunshot residue GSRS found on his 169 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: shirt and his pants his second wardrobe for that evening. 170 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: It's also found on his hands. It's on his hands, 171 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 1: doctor Dupre. You know what that means. Well, Nancy, remember 172 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: that he went to the house to get a gun 173 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: after he had called the police, so he did have 174 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: a gun in his hand that night. He could get 175 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: gunshot residue on his clothing from that. Well, wait a minute, 176 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: would you repeat that one more time? What did you 177 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: say about gunshot residue? So I said that he went 178 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: to the house. He told the nine one one parader 179 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 1: in law enforcement that he was going to the house 180 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 1: to get a gun, which he did, and when police arrived, 181 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: a gun was leaning up against I believe it was 182 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 1: his car. So he did handle a gun that night. 183 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: It is possible to get gunshot residue from handling the 184 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: gun that night. I believe that perhaps he got it 185 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 1: on that T shirt and clothing because he may have 186 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: been wearing it when he before he changed clothes, and 187 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 1: the clothes that he was wearing when he allegedly shot 188 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: them got gunshot residue on the T shirt. Okay, Ted Williams. 189 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,679 Speaker 1: We didn't have to look far, did we. There's your 190 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: answer right there, he should say. Yes, I'm not even 191 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: contesting this. I had gunshot residue on my hands because 192 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 1: when I found my wife and son shot dead, I 193 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: grabbed a gun because I was afraid the purpe could 194 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:55,439 Speaker 1: still be there. There you go. You're right, Ted Williams. 195 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: And it pains me to say that, but it's true. 196 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 1: You're absolutely right. They're going to have an excuse handed 197 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: to them on a silver platter, No, on a Christmas tree. 198 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: As my father used to say, there's the answer, Ted, Well, 199 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 1: you're absolutely right. That could very well be one of 200 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:18,359 Speaker 1: the answers. And I think when you looked at Megan Fletcher, 201 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: who testifies she was the gunshot residue expert, she clearly 202 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: said that while she found it on the jacket, while 203 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:30,679 Speaker 1: she found it in the area of some of his underwear, 204 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: that she could not say when it got there. And 205 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: that's the problem that the government has. It can show 206 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: that this residue was there, but when was it put there? 207 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: When how did it get there? And they're all explanations here, No, no, no, 208 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: Ted disagree. I'll tell you why. Gunshot residue, which I've mentioned, 209 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:59,319 Speaker 1: it's just like baby powder. You're not gonna have gunshot 210 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 1: powder residue you on your underwear for very long because 211 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 1: when you take down your pants, you're gonna lose that GSR. 212 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:10,079 Speaker 1: I mean, all you gotta do is that to get 213 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: rid of gunsight residue, Ted, And I mean it's there 214 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 1: for a very short period of time. That's why, as 215 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: I mentioned, yesterday. We would never, absolutely never let a 216 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 1: defendant go to the bathroom on a crime scene because 217 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: all you have to do is wash your hands and 218 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: the GSR is gone. So the fact that you said 219 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: GSR is on is underwear, you have to kind of 220 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: figure out how did that happen? And it must have 221 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: just happened because it would have been gone if he 222 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: had dropped his drawers to go to the bathroom or 223 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: for any other reason. Ted, well, but Nancy, if you 224 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: would testifying in this case, I think that would come 225 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: across credibly. But just think about it. Megan Fletcher testified 226 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: everything that you've just said here, which is rational and logical, 227 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: or she did not testify too, so that what you're 228 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: saying is not in evidence, So it's not part of 229 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: the case unfortunately. And I think that maybe down the 230 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: road they may very well be able to bring in 231 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: another exploit that can connect these dots. But until these 232 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: dots dots are connected, or it's out there and it's 233 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: out there that this residue was found, and that she 234 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: cannot say when it was a place there, that's really 235 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: the prosecution really needs to make a case for asking 236 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 1: how easy is it to get rid of gunshot residue 237 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 1: and let the jury understand that it's fairly easy. I'm 238 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: my phone is blowing up right now because I'm getting 239 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: messages from people that were inside the courtroom telling me 240 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: that right now everyone is waiting for dogs to come 241 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: to the courthouse and make a sweep of the courthouse 242 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: looking for a potential bomb. That's what's going on at 243 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: the courthouse right now. While we wait to find out 244 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 1: what exactly, if anything is found, I want to focus 245 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: on what happened in the courtroom. Why would someone hypothetically 246 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: want to stop the testimony and its tracks about this 247 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: gun shot residue. Let's take a listen to more it's 248 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: in our cut five about the gunshot residue found all 249 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: over Alex Barlock's clothes and that raincoat. Listen after your examination, 250 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: what were your result Particles characteristic of gunshot primary residue 251 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: were also found on the interior of this jacket? Was 252 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: there a lot of gunshot primary residue inside the inside 253 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: of the jacket? I would say there were a significant, 254 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: significant number of particles of particles characteristic give gunshot primary 255 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: residue on the inside of this Jackie. Yes, I mean, 256 00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: did you determine. I confirmed thirty eight particles characteristic. There 257 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: were significantly more particles were listed as candidate features containing 258 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,640 Speaker 1: the elements led Barryman antimony. I had to make an 259 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 1: analyst decision based on my experience to stop at the 260 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 1: number that I did. There was a possibility that there 261 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: would have been more on it, but you found thirty eight. 262 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:24,919 Speaker 1: I confirmed thirty eight. Okay, more about the gunshot residue. Guys, 263 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: it seems as if the state is building up to 264 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 1: a climax. And I want to go back to you, 265 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:39,640 Speaker 1: Ted Williams, former Washington DC cop defense attorney. I either well, 266 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 1: I like to both ways. Ted. I like to start 267 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: the case with a bang, like maybe putting up the 268 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 1: medical examiner right up front, and I like to end 269 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: it with a bang. So do you get the sense, Ted, 270 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 1: that the state is working up to the zenith the 271 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 1: culmination of their case, which I believe may very well 272 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 1: be Curtis Eddie Smith cousin Eddie that reportedly took a 273 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: shot at Murdogue to get life insurance policy proceeds. What 274 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: do you make of that? Well, you know, it's interesting 275 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 1: as to where the case is going. Nancy, I gotta 276 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: tell you. I see a circumstantial evidence case here, but 277 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: it seems to be somewhat of a rambling discard of 278 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 1: a case. I mean, I'm deeply concerned here that you 279 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 1: would even allow, by the way, this financial evidence to 280 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:42,679 Speaker 1: come in. I think it's substantially more prejudicial and probitive. 281 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: And I think the statement right now is just can 282 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: I say, ted Ted, you know what? Yes, did somebody 283 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,199 Speaker 1: ask you about the financial evidence? Because I know what 284 00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 1: you're doing. You're dodging the question, and typically I think 285 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: you'd be right. The financial evidence could not come in 286 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: because it would be doing more prejudicial than probitive. In 287 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 1: other words, it would hurt his reputation more than it 288 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 1: would prove anything. That's what probative means. But under the law, 289 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 1: if a probably bad act goes to course of conduct scheme, motive, 290 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: frame of mind, it comes in. Boo hoo, it came in. 291 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: It came in to show motive. His world was spinning out. 292 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:34,479 Speaker 1: Ted over the money, over the money he spent on 293 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: It's really hard for me to believe he's spent all 294 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:41,359 Speaker 1: that money on dope. That said, it's motive evidence, But 295 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 1: do you believe they're working up to Curtis Smith. I 296 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 1: think they're working up to somebody or something, and I 297 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: don't know where they're going right now with their case, 298 00:19:54,560 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: because as I've said, it seems like it's really whatever 299 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: we can throw at the wall and hope that it 300 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: would stick. Or some of the evidence that they put in, 301 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:11,880 Speaker 1: like you said, this gun residue, that's very important. We 302 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 1: know that the night of this incident, that when Alex 303 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: went to his mother's home, we have a care governed 304 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 1: as saying that he had blue top black matter that 305 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: he had with him and that he had gone upstairs 306 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 1: with him. It is believed that this was this blue 307 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 1: poncho that had some of the residue on it. But 308 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: again we don't know where the government is gone because 309 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:44,360 Speaker 1: they seem to be just rambling. And I'm really not 310 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: encouraged with the case that the government is putting rambling. 311 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: They don't seem to know how to put this case on. 312 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 1: They put on some witnesses and then they go back 313 00:20:56,160 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 1: to the financial records. Now they're looking at some one 314 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 1: to talk about more of the financial records. And I 315 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 1: gotta tell you this is not the way I would 316 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 1: have put on this case. I agree with you I 317 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: think putting a medical examine on number one and having 318 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 1: them to explain what took place there is significant and important. 319 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: And on the end, I'm hoping that they have this 320 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: witness that just blows this case out of the water. 321 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: But I'm not sure about that. Nancy. Nancy kind make 322 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: a comment about that the financials, Yeah, hold on, hold on, 323 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 1: I want to say something that said Williams. Ted Williams, Now, 324 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 1: I know that you're a high profile defense lawyer, but 325 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: why are you saying all this? Do you you think 326 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 1: Alex Murdog and Hartpoolian are going to take you out 327 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: to a state dinner after the trial? Because everything that 328 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 1: you just said, well almost everything, they're not rambling. The 329 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: state is not rambling. Now, granted, granted there is a 330 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: grain of truth in what you just said. The state's 331 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 1: witnesses have rambled on a tiny bit. I will concede that, 332 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: But I don't think the state is rambling. Why did 333 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,439 Speaker 1: you say that? Well, I don't think it's And let 334 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 1: me back off a little bit here. I don't think 335 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 1: it's so much the state. I think it's some of 336 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: the witnesses that they're putting on. But I would hope 337 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: that they have that one witness that's gonna blow this 338 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 1: out because clearly, as your first guest said, and I 339 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: do agree with him, this is purely a circumstantial evidence case. 340 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:32,159 Speaker 1: Okay again, and I think I hear doctor Dupree or 341 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: doctor Bethany jumping in, but Ted Williams just a couple 342 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 1: of quick lightning round questions. Yes, No, it's true that 343 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: under the law, the black and white letter of the law, 344 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 1: that circumstantial evidence is deemed as powerful as direct evidence. 345 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: Isn't that true? Absolutely, are called to the way it's used. Absolutely, 346 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 1: So bottom line, when you say it's just a circumstantial case, 347 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: that means nothing to me. I love circumstantial cases. I 348 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: like them better than direct cases. This evidence. I mean, 349 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: when Curtis Eddie Smith takes the stand and says what 350 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: I think he's gonna say, there's gonna be another bomb 351 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: threat because I think Murda is going to threaten to 352 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:20,440 Speaker 1: fire Hartpoolian when his cousin Eddie spills everything. Okay, I'm 353 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,479 Speaker 1: hearing in my ear. Is it doctor Dupree or doctor 354 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 1: Bethany that wants in. I have a quixpidiment about the 355 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 1: circumstantial evidence, and that is that I think it's important, 356 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 1: not just because his world was spinning out of control, 357 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: but there's a saying in my field with sociopaths, and 358 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 1: that is death before dishonor. And what that means is, 359 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 1: if their loved ones are about to see them in 360 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: a negative light, if they're about to be humiliated, I 361 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:51,880 Speaker 1: fear about to lose respect in the eyes of somebody 362 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,120 Speaker 1: important to them, they would rather kill that person than 363 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 1: be seen in a diminished light. So I see the 364 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 1: possibility that he murdered his wife and son, not so 365 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,959 Speaker 1: much because of the fact that all of his financial 366 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 1: misdeeds would be exposed safe, you know, through some divorce 367 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 1: proceeding or something like that, but that they would see 368 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 1: that he had been supporting them off of stolen gains 369 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: for all of these years. So he risoned to Edra, Yes, okay, 370 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 1: now you're not just using psychological terms. You threw some 371 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 1: French at me, all right, reason for living? Okay, I 372 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: have managed to pick that much up. But I'm giving 373 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 1: tons of questions on social media, and one is for you, 374 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: doctor Bethany, what would the effect of a bomb threat 375 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: be on a jury? Well, see, I think that's a 376 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:53,640 Speaker 1: very good question because remember after the murder of Maggie 377 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 1: and Paul was revealed to the staff at the law firm, 378 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,040 Speaker 1: they became very paranoid. Remember they were looking out the 379 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,640 Speaker 1: windows and they were saying to the attorneys and especially 380 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,119 Speaker 1: to Alec Murdoch, oh I see a white car, or 381 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: you better not leave leave for home now, because you 382 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 1: know somebody might be coming to get you. So there 383 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 1: is this general paranoia that there was a killer on 384 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 1: the loose, not that there was potentially a killer within 385 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 1: the law firm. And I think that paranoia could spread 386 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: to the jury that if they think truthfully, if they 387 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: assess the situation accurately, are they going to going to 388 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 1: receive some threat when this trial is over. So you know, 389 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 1: when we are threatened and we're we feel in danger 390 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: and the amygdala, the fight or flight gets activated, we 391 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: can't think clearly. So this is really going to affect 392 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 1: the jurors assessment and they need to be reassured not 393 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: only that they are safe, that potentially they have some 394 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: protection after this trial wraps, and also treatment for potential 395 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 1: trauma from everything they're seeing and hearing. Dodgor Michelle Dupree, 396 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:05,120 Speaker 1: an me forensic pathologist, medical examiner, former detective author, What 397 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 1: were you saying, doctor Michelle Well? I wanted to go 398 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: back to the circumstantial evidence and to the gunshot residue. 399 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,360 Speaker 1: Circumstantial evidence, Nancy, I totally agree with you. I love 400 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: circumstantial evidence. Circumstantial evidence is physical evidence, and physical evidence 401 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: doesn't lie finding this gunshot residue, which is the circumstantial 402 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,919 Speaker 1: evidence I mean, tells us a lot. I think you know, 403 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 1: Alex handled a gun that night. Okay, that's fine, But 404 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:34,439 Speaker 1: where is this gunshot residue found on his person? And 405 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 1: it's found in places that normally simply handling a gun 406 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 1: you're probably not going to find. And I think that's 407 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 1: a question we need to ask. Okay, wait a minute. 408 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: I like what you're saying. Where could you explain that 409 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 1: in let's just say, illustrative terms. Okay, so I can understand, 410 00:26:55,560 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 1: you know, like a parable. Don't just tell me religion. 411 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 1: Give me a story like you know, the prodigal son 412 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 1: or the woman at the well. I understand that. Now, 413 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,919 Speaker 1: what are you talking about? That the gunshot residue was 414 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: in a place that indicates he shot a gun versus 415 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 1: had just picked up a gun out of fear. I 416 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,920 Speaker 1: believe so, because if we look back at the testimony, 417 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: we see that gunshot residue was found on the left 418 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: and the right sleeve, okay, but it was also found 419 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 1: on his shorts in the left and right growing area. 420 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: If you simply hold a gun, okay, it's going to 421 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 1: be in a certain place. If you're firing that gun, 422 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 1: it's going to be up near the collar, and that 423 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,639 Speaker 1: is where some of this gunshot residue was actually found 424 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 1: just holding it or carrying it to your car. I 425 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: don't believe it's likely to be found in those places, guys. 426 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: So much is happening in the courtroom right now. We're 427 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 1: still waiting for Sled to bring dogs. They may already 428 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: be there to scan the building to find out this 429 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:04,919 Speaker 1: I'm threat is real. Is it to disrupt the testimony, 430 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 1: this particular testimony. Is it real? Or is it simply 431 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 1: to delay the trial? And who, if anyone, would that benefit? 432 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,919 Speaker 1: Is it meant to scare grars? Is it meant to 433 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 1: scare witnesses or the judge? Guys, While we're trying to 434 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 1: figure that out, another major develop in the courtroom today, 435 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:32,199 Speaker 1: yet another witness identifies the voice of Alex murdog and 436 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: the kennel just before the shootings. Take a listen to 437 00:28:37,280 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: our cut eleven the genus. Do you recognize any voice video? 438 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 1: I hear three voices, and tell me who you hear. 439 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: I hear Paul Murdoch, Naggie Murdock, and Eli Murdac. How 440 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: sure are you? I'm a Christine and our New York 441 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: control room running the show right now. Christine, I know it, 442 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 1: sign on a list, but could you possibly pull up 443 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: the video that goes with that sound? Everybody? I know 444 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 1: you legal legals saw it just like we did in 445 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 1: the courtroom. The video where Paul Murdog now dead. Oh 446 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 1: there it is. That was quick. See. Paul Murdog has 447 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: his friend's dog over. The friend is worried about an ailment, 448 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: something to do with the dog's tail. The dog's name 449 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: is Cash. So he's trying to get a video and 450 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: a steel of the dog's tail that they're going to 451 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 1: send to a lady veterinarian that they know. In the background, 452 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 1: you can hear a lot of sound and it purports 453 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 1: to be according to the state, Paul now murdered, Maggie 454 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 1: now murdered, and lo and behold. Just before the murders, 455 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 1: the voice of Alex Murdog. Hey, Christine, tell me when 456 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 1: you have that where we can hear it as well. 457 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: In the meantime, you hear one person identifying that voice. 458 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: This is now the third person that identifies that voice 459 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: as being Alex murdog on the scene of the murders 460 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: and the kennel where the murders took place, just before, 461 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 1: like minutes before the murders occurred. And that's not the 462 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: only one. Take a listen to our cut one want 463 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: you listen to it and tell me if you recognize 464 00:30:43,920 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 1: any voices on this video, please quick ya, would you 465 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 1: recognize any voices on that video, the three voices on 466 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 1: that video or the voices of Paul Murdock, Maggie Murdock 467 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: and Elec Murdock. How sure are you so? That gives me? 468 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: Now the friend Rogie Rogan Gibson I believe was his 469 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: last name, Rogan's friend IDs at one. Then you've got 470 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: Um Cosby and you've got Annette Griswold. That's four people 471 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: stating that that is Alex Murdock's voice, and this is 472 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: I would say, with it. In thirty minutes of the 473 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 1: killing or less, we believe that. Let me get out 474 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 1: of my little trial notebook they gave me when I 475 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 1: went into the courtroom. So you have to carry this, 476 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: and instead of a phone, it says you've entered the 477 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: no phone zone hashtag leave it at home. I narrowed 478 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: it down, guys, believe it or not. After days of testimony, 479 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 1: we'll find out of the prosecution. U this is my 480 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 1: timeline or not, but down to an eight second space 481 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: where I believe the murders occurred. And I'll tell you 482 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 1: how I came up with that. I came up with 483 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 1: it because this is the time that Maggie had just 484 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 1: gotten Christine. Did you say we do have the video? 485 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 1: Oh great, let's play that while I find this in 486 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 1: my trial notebook. Let's see the video that they were 487 00:32:48,600 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 1: just looking at. Get it get that quick, cash shit, Okay, 488 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 1: hey got burdens now, bla bla blaba. It's a guinea. 489 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 1: There's a chicken comes quick. How many times do you 490 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 1: think that jury has seen that? I mean, you know, 491 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 1: Ted Williams defense attorney joining us. That's pretty good evidence. 492 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 1: You're talking about how you don't view circumstantial evidence as 493 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 1: being as powerful as direct evidence. There you've got Alex 494 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 1: and murdog the defendant, at the location of the murder, 495 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 1: and the kennel, the dog kennel with the two victims 496 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 1: just before the murders. What are they gonna do with that, 497 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 1: Ted Nancy? That is damning evidence. That is direct damning 498 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 1: evidence as far as I'm concerned in this case. We 499 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 1: know that that evidence was around eight forty four that night, 500 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 1: and that was a time that Alex has told investigators 501 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: that he never never was around that Kimmel area, and 502 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:31,319 Speaker 1: this evidence, this puts him directly there at eight forty four. 503 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,759 Speaker 1: We know that he told his friend Cosby that he 504 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 1: went to sleep on the couch and that at nine 505 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,719 Speaker 1: o'clock he left and he went to go to his 506 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 1: mother's home. But he was never at that Kimmel And 507 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 1: this is a kind of evidence that could or get 508 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:56,920 Speaker 1: a guilty verdict against this man. Because every one of 509 00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 1: the witnesses Nancy has said one hundred percent they recognize 510 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:08,840 Speaker 1: his voice on that video. That is damning and that 511 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 1: is the best evidence I think that the prosecution got, 512 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 1: and they need to continue to drive that that that 513 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,440 Speaker 1: that that video with any and every witness who can 514 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 1: say that they can identify Paul's voice, Maggie's voice, and 515 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,920 Speaker 1: Alex's voice. That Alex is down one hundred percent. They 516 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 1: can identify it. That's that's damning. Ted Williams, have you 517 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:37,360 Speaker 1: ever considered public speaking, because, man, you can lay it on. 518 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,799 Speaker 1: I mean, that was a heck of a sermon right there. 519 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 1: Uh that said, I found it. I had to, Okay, 520 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 1: I think I'm conceding what you said earlier that some 521 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: of the state's witnesses were mandering. It took me like 522 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:56,239 Speaker 1: thirty four pages before I finally found my chart. Let's 523 00:35:56,239 --> 00:36:00,960 Speaker 1: say this, guys, after all the Testament only for days. 524 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: I came down with one block. Murders occur, according to 525 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 1: me between eight forty nine point twenty seven PM and 526 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:17,280 Speaker 1: eight forty nine point thirty five PM. Why, because Maggie 527 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 1: gets a text that she reads at eight forty nine 528 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,479 Speaker 1: twenty seven. That's where I'm getting that. She was still 529 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 1: reading and responding to texts and whatever she was getting 530 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 1: on her phone, phone calls and on it up to 531 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 1: eight forty nine twenty seven. She opened up a group 532 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:41,279 Speaker 1: text about mister Randolph being ill Murdoch's dad at eight 533 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:46,839 Speaker 1: forty nine thirty five, a message and call from their 534 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,719 Speaker 1: friend Rogue and Roguie Gibson eight forty nine thirty five 535 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:56,759 Speaker 1: was never read. Paul had been responding back and forth 536 00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:00,759 Speaker 1: to Rogie about the picture. Okay, do still, don't do 537 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 1: the video. He's moving too much, making me still there, 538 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 1: going back and forth and back and forth about the dog. 539 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:10,240 Speaker 1: And then suddenly eight forty nine thirty five, Paul's phone 540 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,680 Speaker 1: goes dead. No more text, no more phone calls, no 541 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:18,319 Speaker 1: more snapchats, nothing. She answers the call eighty nine twenty seven. 542 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 1: His phone goes called eight thirty five, and this video 543 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 1: is placing him there just minutes before all this happens. Okay, 544 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 1: what about that, doctor Bethany Marshall, Well, my thought and 545 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:38,400 Speaker 1: I think this is going to be in the jury's mind. 546 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 1: Why the dog kennels? If he did it, it seems 547 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:48,360 Speaker 1: like he's actually picking a burial site or a site 548 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 1: to commit the crime, away from the house, away from 549 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 1: his precious furniture, you know, in an area where it's 550 00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 1: sort of barren the dogs are kept. It shows utter 551 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:05,279 Speaker 1: disregard and disrespect for his wife and son. Yes, we 552 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 1: have the timeline, Yes it's very damning, but as a psychoanalyst, 553 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 1: I see a whole another area where when there is 554 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:20,760 Speaker 1: a planned targeted murder or attack, the perpetrator usually prepares 555 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 1: like a dump site or a site to commit the crime. 556 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:30,400 Speaker 1: And it's almost like he's romancing that site like a 557 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:36,560 Speaker 1: drug addict would romance pharmacy, like an alcoholic would maybe romance, 558 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,040 Speaker 1: you know, a bar. That he is sort of swirling 559 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,480 Speaker 1: around that site until he gets up the courage to 560 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 1: do it. And remember this is Paul Murdoch's m I mean, 561 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,719 Speaker 1: I know he's on trial and he hasn't been convicted, 562 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 1: but he would always wait to the last minute with 563 00:38:55,840 --> 00:39:00,040 Speaker 1: Genie with a net. He would just blow it and 564 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,359 Speaker 1: at ten to five asked them to write out a check, 565 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,520 Speaker 1: throw the office into chaos, and then get them to 566 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:08,520 Speaker 1: do it before anyone could respond. So I think it's 567 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,719 Speaker 1: the same m. It's just sort of you know, taking photos, 568 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: a lot of chaos, working up his courage, and then 569 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 1: bam that the il dean gets done. You know, speaking 570 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:21,960 Speaker 1: of chaos and the storm that seemed to be swirling 571 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:28,480 Speaker 1: around Murdog at all times, would you say, doctor Bethany Marshall, 572 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 1: that that is an indicator of drug abuse. Yes, I 573 00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:37,040 Speaker 1: would think his decreasing attachment to the people around him. 574 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:41,120 Speaker 1: The sloppiness that Jeanie the CFO referred to that he 575 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,759 Speaker 1: was very slick with his crimes and then all of 576 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 1: a sudden he got more sloppy. The fact that he'd 577 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 1: left his keys in his car. He would would often 578 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,080 Speaker 1: just not even show up to work. You know all 579 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,240 Speaker 1: of this. I think that the planting of the tree 580 00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:01,640 Speaker 1: while Paul is snapchatting it shows a very confused mind. 581 00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,960 Speaker 1: This is not somebody who plans a homicide as if 582 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 1: somebody else had done it. He is very sloppy, and 583 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,400 Speaker 1: you know, even I know I'm going to all different 584 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 1: directions with this, but I think it's because his mind 585 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:16,960 Speaker 1: went all different directions. So there's so many things to 586 00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:20,120 Speaker 1: talk about. You think about the coat that had the 587 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 1: gun residue on it, then it's at his mother's house, 588 00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:26,640 Speaker 1: who has Alzheimer's, is hastily folded, it's stuffed in a closet. 589 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 1: This is not somebody who's thinking anything out at all. 590 00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:34,000 Speaker 1: There's a high degree of impulsivity, which we also know 591 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,399 Speaker 1: is associated with iPad abuse. Well, it's interesting that you're 592 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:41,680 Speaker 1: saying that because Alex and Mardog's paralegal described him as 593 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 1: quote the Tasmanian devil. And I know you all know 594 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:51,719 Speaker 1: the Leoney Tunes character of the crazy Tasmanian devil. I 595 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:53,600 Speaker 1: want you to take a listen to what came out 596 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:57,440 Speaker 1: in the courtroom an hour cut six. How is the 597 00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 1: defendant as a Boston a law Just where were his 598 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,240 Speaker 1: typical work habits and what was he like in the office? 599 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,400 Speaker 1: Extremely intelligent when it comes to the law. I respected 600 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:13,440 Speaker 1: and admired that in him greatly. He didn't keep normal hours. 601 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:17,040 Speaker 1: He liked the flute in later in the late morning 602 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,800 Speaker 1: time or early afternoon of We always had a running 603 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,719 Speaker 1: joke we never knew, we knew that he might not 604 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:25,680 Speaker 1: be there all day, but he would always show up 605 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:27,799 Speaker 1: right before five o'clock when we were ready to leave. 606 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:32,040 Speaker 1: So just you know, kept unset hours pretty um. I 607 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,359 Speaker 1: sometimes call it referred to Elik as a Tasmanian devil 608 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,000 Speaker 1: because when he walked in, no matter what you were doing, 609 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:41,480 Speaker 1: you were started spinning because he was just coming through 610 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,359 Speaker 1: and you know, shouting everybody's name and ready to get 611 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:47,359 Speaker 1: work done when he was walking in the door. Yeah, 612 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,880 Speaker 1: I don't want a lawyer or a doctor, any of 613 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,120 Speaker 1: those professionals that you are trusting to take care of 614 00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:58,239 Speaker 1: your business, or your body or your family showing up 615 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,760 Speaker 1: like the Tasmanian Devil at five o'clock and barking orders 616 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:22,960 Speaker 1: time stories with Nancy Grace. Another very unusual thing happened. 617 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,279 Speaker 1: As you will recall, it seems like a fleet of 618 00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:31,719 Speaker 1: lawyers suddenly showed up at Moselle, the hunting lodge at 619 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:33,879 Speaker 1: the time of the murders. Now, how and the hey 620 00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,839 Speaker 1: did that happen? I want you to take a listen 621 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:41,840 Speaker 1: to our cut two. This is Ronnie Crosby on the 622 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:46,200 Speaker 1: stand about what he saw at the hunting lodge known 623 00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:49,760 Speaker 1: as Moselle the night that Maggie and Paul were gunned 624 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:52,360 Speaker 1: down dead in the dog kennel. Listen, do you remember 625 00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:56,239 Speaker 1: June seventh, twenty one? Did you see earlier that day? 626 00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:00,520 Speaker 1: I saw him later that night, I guess sometime around 627 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,560 Speaker 1: eleven PM. My wife got a phone call. I don't 628 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:08,680 Speaker 1: remember his exact words, but it was something about Maggie 629 00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:12,000 Speaker 1: and Paul being shot. I got in my vehicle and 630 00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:16,359 Speaker 1: started headed to Moselle. I'm confident that my partner, Mark 631 00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:20,440 Speaker 1: Ball was already there. Um Elik was there. Did you 632 00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:23,160 Speaker 1: have conversations with the defendant the next day? Yes? And 633 00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,080 Speaker 1: what did Alec tell you about his activities at night? 634 00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:32,560 Speaker 1: That Maggie and Paul went to went outside and to 635 00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:35,359 Speaker 1: the dog kennels, and that he sat on the couch 636 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:40,200 Speaker 1: and fell asleep, and then around nine o'clock he woke up. 637 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:45,440 Speaker 1: He went to back to Barneville, Almeda to check on 638 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,400 Speaker 1: his mother and they goes And that is in direct 639 00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:51,440 Speaker 1: contradiction to him being at the dog kennels, which we 640 00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:53,600 Speaker 1: see in the snapchat. I saw so what he told 641 00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:55,839 Speaker 1: police that he was never at the kennel. Guys, got 642 00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:58,840 Speaker 1: an update for you from the courthouse. A Carleton County 643 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:03,160 Speaker 1: Sheriff's Office depth was seen sprinting across the grounds of 644 00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:06,920 Speaker 1: the Collinton County Courthouse, panic in his voice, yelling for 645 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,960 Speaker 1: everyone to clear the area. One person that made it 646 00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:15,680 Speaker 1: out safe and sound immediately is Alex Murdog. He was 647 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:20,200 Speaker 1: driven out in a large black van. It's been confirmed 648 00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,480 Speaker 1: that there was a bomb threat. Of course, the Colton 649 00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:26,360 Speaker 1: County Sheriff setting that out a little while ago, and 650 00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:29,360 Speaker 1: it's been said that law enforcement have not only in 651 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:35,279 Speaker 1: fact evacuated the courthouse, but the entire block of all 652 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,560 Speaker 1: the reporters and public spectators that were around the courthouse, 653 00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,239 Speaker 1: there's a heavy police presence. Law enforcement have formed a 654 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:46,799 Speaker 1: perimeter around the courthouse square. Attendees exited the building from 655 00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:51,200 Speaker 1: the front, sweeping stairs the ones not normally used by 656 00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:55,120 Speaker 1: the public. So that confirms everything all the emails and 657 00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:57,480 Speaker 1: texts I'm getting from people at the courthouse, there was 658 00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:04,440 Speaker 1: a bomb threat. Wow, I wonder who engineered that. That said, 659 00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:08,279 Speaker 1: let's talk about what happened in the courtroom. Let's talk 660 00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:13,239 Speaker 1: about what we are hearing. Straight back out to our 661 00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:19,880 Speaker 1: friend doctor Michelle Dupree, pathologist, medical examiner, detective and author, 662 00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:24,600 Speaker 1: what do you make of what you're hearing now about 663 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:28,360 Speaker 1: all these people being there at the hunting Lodge the 664 00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:31,440 Speaker 1: night of the murders, Nancy, This is not the way 665 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:34,320 Speaker 1: to handle a crime scene. Again, you don't want a 666 00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,040 Speaker 1: lot of people around, You want to separate any possible 667 00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,000 Speaker 1: or potential witnesses, and you don't want a mass of 668 00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:44,000 Speaker 1: people tracking through what might potentially be evidence. So this 669 00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:47,759 Speaker 1: really wasn't a secure scene at that time. But I'd 670 00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:49,560 Speaker 1: like to go back to one other thing, and I 671 00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,000 Speaker 1: agree with doctor Bethany when she was talking about some 672 00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:54,879 Speaker 1: of his erratic behavior. But go back to the night 673 00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:57,440 Speaker 1: when he was actually interviewed, the Knight of the murders. 674 00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,600 Speaker 1: To me, Alex was not around. He was rather calm. 675 00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:06,640 Speaker 1: He seemed almost calculating. He thought about everything that he 676 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:08,920 Speaker 1: was about to say before he said it. You know, 677 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:12,400 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about his behavior. To IRV Brandt joining me 678 00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:17,840 Speaker 1: world renown travels all over the country. He traveled for 679 00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:22,879 Speaker 1: the US Marshal Service for DJ international affairs, represent our 680 00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:26,920 Speaker 1: country and prosecutions all around the world. I'd like to 681 00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:29,560 Speaker 1: hear your critique of the evidence as we know it 682 00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:32,560 Speaker 1: so far, and what do you make of the bomb threat. Well, 683 00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:34,600 Speaker 1: let me start with the bomb threat first. What you 684 00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:40,080 Speaker 1: said about seeing a deputy sprinting away and possibly having 685 00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:44,279 Speaker 1: panic in his voice as indicative of someone finding a 686 00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:49,399 Speaker 1: suspicious package to get a threat phoned in as one thing. 687 00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:52,520 Speaker 1: Then you do your search of the building as another thing. 688 00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:59,560 Speaker 1: But to start evacuating a block around the courthouse, not 689 00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,920 Speaker 1: just evacuating the courthouse, but evacuating the people from around 690 00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:07,720 Speaker 1: the courthouse suggests to me that they may have found 691 00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:13,319 Speaker 1: either a device or something a suspicious package that may 692 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:16,400 Speaker 1: contain a device, you know what, let me tell you 693 00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:21,640 Speaker 1: what my producer Kelly has come up with. The bomb 694 00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:26,480 Speaker 1: threat came in right before the testimony of a sled 695 00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:34,200 Speaker 1: computer crimes agent Brian Hoodac, right before a computer crimes 696 00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:41,480 Speaker 1: agent Brian Hoodak. It just makes me wonder, what is 697 00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:47,000 Speaker 1: Hoodac going to say? Ted Williams joining me, Fox contributor, 698 00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:52,600 Speaker 1: high profile defense attorney, former DC cop. Ted. The bomb 699 00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:57,320 Speaker 1: threat comes in right before a computer crimes expert is 700 00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:00,400 Speaker 1: going to test. And I don't mean a theoretical expert 701 00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,960 Speaker 1: that knows all about computers. I mean somebody that tapped 702 00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:10,320 Speaker 1: into Murdogs probably his phones and his computers. Row. You know, Nancy, 703 00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:15,680 Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, that is very suspicious. Who that is 704 00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:19,520 Speaker 1: definitely going to be able to supply some kind of 705 00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:24,320 Speaker 1: evidence and show a nexus between the phones and the 706 00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:29,720 Speaker 1: time or when certain things happen there on that scene. 707 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:34,279 Speaker 1: I believe, and I believe that it is suspicious that 708 00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:37,239 Speaker 1: you would get this bomb threat at this immediate time. 709 00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:40,840 Speaker 1: But I also believe you are guests just proud of me, 710 00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:46,160 Speaker 1: and that is that normally when there's a bomb scare, 711 00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:49,640 Speaker 1: they yeah, they will clear the courthouse and that kind 712 00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,120 Speaker 1: of thing. But the fact that you have a deputy 713 00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:56,680 Speaker 1: running across the courthouse area there. It leads me to 714 00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:00,360 Speaker 1: believe that they may be more to this than we 715 00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:06,200 Speaker 1: know at disimmediate time. So it's interesting. I think that 716 00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:09,120 Speaker 1: we should pay a lot of attention to the testimony 717 00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:13,560 Speaker 1: of this sled agent that's about to testify. I think 718 00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:19,040 Speaker 1: that very well, maybe something that ties Alex closer to 719 00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:23,320 Speaker 1: that crime scene on the night of all these murders. 720 00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:27,000 Speaker 1: We have been hearing that. You're seeing footage right there 721 00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:31,440 Speaker 1: of shares converging on the Colleton County Courthouse as a 722 00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:34,399 Speaker 1: bomb threat is ferreted out, and that takes a while. 723 00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:38,359 Speaker 1: You know, they may sweep and find nothing. I mean, 724 00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:44,440 Speaker 1: I believe completely in bomb detection dogs. They're as powerful 725 00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:50,279 Speaker 1: or more so than cadaver and drug dogs. So what 726 00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:53,800 Speaker 1: is happening in the courtroom? Why did it have to 727 00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:58,680 Speaker 1: be disrupted right now? Is it to take the jury's 728 00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:01,440 Speaker 1: mind off something? Is it a real bomb threat? Is 729 00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:04,800 Speaker 1: it to impede progress of the trial? We are hearing 730 00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:08,600 Speaker 1: the state is culminating its case. That means they're going 731 00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:12,080 Speaker 1: to wrap and then it'll be showtime for the defense. Now, 732 00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:15,480 Speaker 1: of course, under our constitution, the defense does not have 733 00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:19,279 Speaker 1: to present one shred, not one sintilla of evidence. It's 734 00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:21,640 Speaker 1: not their burden of proof. It's all on the state 735 00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:24,400 Speaker 1: to prove the case or not. The defense doesn't have 736 00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:27,000 Speaker 1: to say a peat in the courtroom, but we predict 737 00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:30,920 Speaker 1: that they will. So what was happening. We learned that 738 00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:36,719 Speaker 1: Alex Murdog had a complete personality change after the Mallory 739 00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:42,759 Speaker 1: Beach boat incident when son Paul Now murdered as settlement 740 00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:49,239 Speaker 1: conversations swirled, a hearing was set for that week, and 741 00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:54,719 Speaker 1: then Paul dies by gunshot just before the case goes 742 00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:59,600 Speaker 1: to trial. But we're hearing now that Alex and Murdog's 743 00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:05,719 Speaker 1: higher disposition had an abrupt change, like a personality transparent 744 00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:09,920 Speaker 1: plant after the Mallory bench incident. Take a listen to 745 00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:13,480 Speaker 1: our cut seven after the boat case happened, Did you 746 00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:17,800 Speaker 1: notice any change in the defendant demeanor around the office 747 00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:21,680 Speaker 1: and about his work habits. I did. He was more 748 00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,920 Speaker 1: distant even when he was in the office. He was absent. 749 00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:27,759 Speaker 1: It was hard to He's always been hard to sit 750 00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:32,200 Speaker 1: still and get answers from, and it was almost impossible 751 00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:35,800 Speaker 1: for us to reach him, even he was always on 752 00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:38,279 Speaker 1: his phone. It was consuming his life almost There was 753 00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:41,279 Speaker 1: a couple of instances where I referred to him as 754 00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:44,320 Speaker 1: having his ass on his shoulders because that's how I felt. 755 00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:47,640 Speaker 1: It was disrespectful of me to to, you know, to 756 00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:49,520 Speaker 1: feel that way and to say that out loud, but 757 00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:52,879 Speaker 1: that's how I felt, because he just wasn't his self 758 00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:54,840 Speaker 1: with us anymore. He came in and it was just 759 00:51:55,000 --> 00:52:00,719 Speaker 1: like yell our names and and just didn't treat us 760 00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:02,480 Speaker 1: the same way he did. Prior to the boat accident, 761 00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:06,920 Speaker 1: there was a multi multi million dollar lawsuit filed by 762 00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:11,680 Speaker 1: that teen girl, Mallory Beaches family against the Murdog's and 763 00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:16,800 Speaker 1: others for that drunken boat incident where Mallory died because 764 00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:20,560 Speaker 1: of it, millions of dollars at stake, and not only that, 765 00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:25,960 Speaker 1: a forensic accountant could very well be involved. And the 766 00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:29,160 Speaker 1: last thing Murdog wanted anybody to do is look at 767 00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:33,000 Speaker 1: his finances and find all that theft. I hear you laughing. 768 00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:38,239 Speaker 1: There's Mallory, all my stars, look at that beautiful girl. Yeah, 769 00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:42,000 Speaker 1: I hear you, Ted Williams, the listen. That's the last 770 00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:46,680 Speaker 1: thing he wanted. Nancy, you are hundred percent right, or 771 00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:51,000 Speaker 1: his demeanor change not because he was concerned about Mallory 772 00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:55,000 Speaker 1: and her death. He was concerned about his pocket book. 773 00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:58,680 Speaker 1: He was concerned. I believe that he was going to 774 00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:02,719 Speaker 1: be exposed as the fraud that he was. He was 775 00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:08,160 Speaker 1: concerned about the exposure of them, of the all of 776 00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:11,160 Speaker 1: the funds that he has stolen from that law firm, 777 00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:13,600 Speaker 1: and I think all of those are the things that 778 00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:19,959 Speaker 1: will win on him. So quite naturally, the finances were 779 00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:24,399 Speaker 1: important and all important, but I just don't know if 780 00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,360 Speaker 1: I would have let them in in this case to 781 00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:31,440 Speaker 1: give him and appellete issue when you have other damning 782 00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:34,719 Speaker 1: evidence like that video at the chemry, Nancy, if I 783 00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:39,920 Speaker 1: could speak to Moity, go for doctor Bethley. Okay, I 784 00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:43,800 Speaker 1: think prior to the voting incident, he could just barely 785 00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:49,440 Speaker 1: handle his addiction, his theft, fueling his lavish lifestyle, fueling 786 00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:53,719 Speaker 1: his drug purchases. He kind of had a perfect con 787 00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:58,000 Speaker 1: gooing for quite a length of time, for years. Then 788 00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:02,600 Speaker 1: with the Mallory Beach death voting, his son Paul drunk 789 00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:08,000 Speaker 1: driving in this huge multimillion dollar a potential verdict being 790 00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:11,439 Speaker 1: brought against him. It's not only that his finances would 791 00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:15,840 Speaker 1: be exposed, but it placed additional pressure on the Khan. 792 00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:20,680 Speaker 1: So let's say his drug addiction was escalating. Now he 793 00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:23,880 Speaker 1: had even more bills to cover. I think his interest 794 00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:27,440 Speaker 1: in his wife and his son actually lessened under the 795 00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:30,840 Speaker 1: influence of all of these opioids that he was taking, 796 00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:33,799 Speaker 1: and so the clear solution was to get them out 797 00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:35,520 Speaker 1: of the way so he didn't have to pay for 798 00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:40,279 Speaker 1: them anymore. It's more complicated than not wanting his finances exposed. 799 00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:43,400 Speaker 1: Is he quickly handle the stress of all of this. 800 00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:47,000 Speaker 1: And think about criminals when they're about to come to 801 00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:50,160 Speaker 1: court and they have to take accountability for their actions. 802 00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:52,959 Speaker 1: Do you remember Michael Jackson who got the spider bite 803 00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:55,439 Speaker 1: and because of that he couldn't show up to court. 804 00:54:55,560 --> 00:55:00,279 Speaker 1: I mean, they began to fall apart when they have 805 00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:03,160 Speaker 1: to take responsibility for their actions. And I think that's 806 00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:08,200 Speaker 1: what was happening. He was becoming extremely a chaotic, disorganized. 807 00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:12,960 Speaker 1: The reason he became more organized right after his son 808 00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:16,680 Speaker 1: and wife were murdered is not only did he have 809 00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:19,799 Speaker 1: to really focus to get himself off the hook that time, 810 00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:25,319 Speaker 1: but often when people commit homicide of loved one's domestic homicides, 811 00:55:25,719 --> 00:55:29,799 Speaker 1: there's a relief phase afterwards. They are relieved that those 812 00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:32,200 Speaker 1: people are out of the way, and that clears their 813 00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:36,280 Speaker 1: minds temporarily, and that's what could have happened to Alec Murdoch. 814 00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:38,560 Speaker 1: You know, I was just thinking about what you're saying, 815 00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:43,080 Speaker 1: or Brandt, Well, everybody on this panel, we're saying murders 816 00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:46,279 Speaker 1: for a lot less than this. I've sayen a murder 817 00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:50,440 Speaker 1: over a five dollar drug debt, a murder over a 818 00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:58,120 Speaker 1: five dollar drug debt, and the dealer had to maintain 819 00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:02,279 Speaker 1: his cred so he gunned down a young man right 820 00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:05,400 Speaker 1: in front of his mom, by the way, over a 821 00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:08,040 Speaker 1: five dollars drug debt. So what I'm saying is then 822 00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:11,000 Speaker 1: we're talking about millions and millions of dollars standing in 823 00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:15,640 Speaker 1: the community. The whole works, and in his drug addled mind, 824 00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:21,400 Speaker 1: maybe he thought, Hey, I kill Paul, no more Mallory 825 00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:27,040 Speaker 1: beach Case, I kill Maggie, no more divorce, goodbye forensic accounting. 826 00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:29,680 Speaker 1: I'll keep my job, I'll make a ton of money 827 00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:32,399 Speaker 1: and Buster and I will be fine. If he even 828 00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:36,040 Speaker 1: thought about his son, Buster. I mean, doctor Michelle Dupree, 829 00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:39,600 Speaker 1: you see more murders than any of us in the morgue. 830 00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:42,840 Speaker 1: I mean, there doesn't have to be a reason for 831 00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:47,240 Speaker 1: a murder, But here there's about eight million reasons exactly. Nancy, 832 00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:49,840 Speaker 1: You're right, and you know I've said it time and 833 00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:53,480 Speaker 1: time again. I am continually amazed at what people who 834 00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:56,560 Speaker 1: supposedly love each other do to each other, some of 835 00:56:56,640 --> 00:56:58,960 Speaker 1: the horrific acts, and I think this is just an 836 00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:03,359 Speaker 1: example of that. Um, It's just it's mind blowing. Really, 837 00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:07,120 Speaker 1: you know, I'm wondering how the defense can counter any 838 00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:11,400 Speaker 1: of this. Is there even a remote possibility, Ted Williamson, 839 00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:16,440 Speaker 1: they would put Alex Murdock on the stand, Nancy, let 840 00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:21,919 Speaker 1: me try to word. Hell, no, I'm gonna I would 841 00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:26,680 Speaker 1: be shocked if they put Alex murder on the stand. 842 00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:31,680 Speaker 1: He would be an open target. Or I believe what 843 00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:34,439 Speaker 1: they're gonna try to do is to bring their own 844 00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:38,480 Speaker 1: experts in and that they're gonna try to do whatever 845 00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:42,560 Speaker 1: they can muck up the water to show that there 846 00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:46,640 Speaker 1: is reasonable doubt in this case, and that this case 847 00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:51,480 Speaker 1: is not beyond a reasonable doubt. And so but putting 848 00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:57,320 Speaker 1: murder Alex on the stand, Hell no, Alex is gonna 849 00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:01,320 Speaker 1: run from that stand. He's a lawyer. He's not somebody 850 00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:05,320 Speaker 1: who doesn't know the way of the courtroom and court procedures, 851 00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:08,160 Speaker 1: and the last thing I believe he wants to do 852 00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:12,520 Speaker 1: is to be anywhere anywhere on that stand. You're not kidding, 853 00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:16,440 Speaker 1: And I predict he'll stand up and say, well, you know, 854 00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:20,080 Speaker 1: I want to testify, I really do, but my lawyer's 855 00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:23,160 Speaker 1: not letting me, do you know, hold me back. In 856 00:58:23,320 --> 00:58:25,640 Speaker 1: other words, no way am I getting on the stand 857 00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:28,240 Speaker 1: and taking a grilling on cross exam. Guys, we're heading 858 00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:30,920 Speaker 1: back to the courthouse to find out what we can 859 00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:34,920 Speaker 1: about the bomb threat. Goodbye everybody, Thank you for being 860 00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:36,240 Speaker 1: with us. Goodbye friend,