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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a gorgeous young mom who

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Speaker 1: has just given birth to a baby girl, stabbed dead

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Speaker 1: in the bed with the baby girl sleeping nearby, and

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Speaker 1: then the shock her honor student thirteen year old son,

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Speaker 1: Dereck Rosa, charged with murdering mom in the last hours.

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Speaker 1: Rosa in court, sitting emotionless as his father blows him

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Speaker 1: a kiss. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for being with us here at Crime Stories and on

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Speaker 1: series XM one eleven. Derek Rosa sitting in court emotionless

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Speaker 1: as his dad blows him a kiss. The thirteen year

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Speaker 1: old boy accused of stabbing his mother dead in her

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Speaker 1: Florida home, sits there, showing no emotion during his first

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Speaker 1: in person court appearance. Dad, sitting in the gallery, reportedly

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Speaker 1: blows a kiss to the accused killer. The honorable student,

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Speaker 1: Derrick Rosa, was wearing a brown prison outfit. He appeared

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Speaker 1: to occasionally nod his head while while speaking to his lawyers.

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Speaker 1: This is just weeks after he allegedly knifed his mother,

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Speaker 1: Irene just thirty nine, dead as she slept next to

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Speaker 1: her newborn baby daughter during the proceed During the court hearing.

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Speaker 1: Footage captures him his eyes darting around the courtroom during

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Speaker 1: the proceedings. As you will recall, he's the one that

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Speaker 1: called nine one one immediately after after the stabbing, even

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Speaker 1: stating he had taken photos off his dead mom and

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Speaker 1: sending them to friends.

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Speaker 2: What exactly happened? Let's take a listen to the nine

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Speaker 2: on one call.

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Speaker 3: Did you call her neck?

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Speaker 4: Okay?

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Speaker 1: Where else did you stop there?

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Speaker 4: Old and night cutting her neck?

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Speaker 5: Then?

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Speaker 1: Where is your sister?

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Speaker 6: She's in your grip sleeping?

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Speaker 4: How old is your sister?

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Speaker 7: She's only like a week old?

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Speaker 8: Okay?

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Speaker 4: And you did not touch her?

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Speaker 8: Correct?

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Speaker 7: No, I did not touch you. I didn't want to

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Speaker 7: touch my sister.

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Speaker 4: I need to know if your mom is breathing.

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Speaker 7: She said, Miss, I have the gun with me. I

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Speaker 7: was gonna shoot myself, but I didn't want to.

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Speaker 3: I didn't want to.

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Speaker 7: I pulled back the slide but I did not see.

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Speaker 2: And more, I need to know.

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Speaker 4: Do you think we can help your mom?

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Speaker 3: She said?

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Speaker 7: I have more family members they can take care of

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Speaker 7: my sister. I took pictures and I told my friend

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Speaker 7: about it. Was that bad?

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Speaker 4: Do you talk old about it?

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Speaker 7: My friends?

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Speaker 4: Your friends and you send pictures to your friends.

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Speaker 8: So what you do?

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Speaker 7: Yeah, I didn't really the pictures off my phone, but

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Speaker 7: I sent him to him and I told him that

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Speaker 7: I was sorry. And then let's go. I'm okay, I'm.

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Speaker 2: Let me understand this.

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Speaker 1: Kaitlin Becker is joining me, senior investigative reporter with dailymail

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Speaker 1: dot Com.

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Speaker 2: Kaitlin Wait, the.

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Speaker 1: Thirteen year old honor student son kills mom, stabbing her

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Speaker 1: multiple times in the neck, and then leaves his fourteen

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Speaker 1: day old little sister alive, takes pictures of his mom

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Speaker 1: dead in the bed and sends him to a friend.

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Speaker 1: Just start at the beginning, Kaitlyn.

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Speaker 9: Becker, Nancy, this case is absolutely baffling. We have no

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Speaker 9: idea what the motive is. This is about eleven thirty

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Speaker 9: at night. The son, as you said, thirteen years old,

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Speaker 9: is awake, both the baby and mom are sleep. He

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Speaker 9: goes into bedroom, allegedly stabbed mom to death like sed

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Speaker 9: Lee's baby untouched, and then he takes the picture send

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Speaker 9: it to someone he barely even knows. I mean, he

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Speaker 9: says the word friend in the nine to one one call,

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Speaker 9: and when the dispatcher asks for a name, he says

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Speaker 9: he doesn't know. The friend's actual name. It's just someone

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Speaker 9: that he plays games with online, so not even someone

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Speaker 9: this child is close with. And then he called nine

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Speaker 9: one one on himself. You could hear in the call

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Speaker 9: that he's clearly distraught. And from everything we know about

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Speaker 9: this kid from friends and family, he's an honor student,

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Speaker 9: well mannered, well behaved, quiet. This appeared to come out

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Speaker 9: of absolutely nowhere. And his baby sister, who is fourteen

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Speaker 9: years old, is a half sister. So his stepfather, who

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Speaker 9: was a truck driver, was out of state working this night,

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Speaker 9: so he wasn't there. And you know, the gun, as

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Speaker 9: the child mentioned in that call, belonged to the stepfather.

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Speaker 1: I want to hear that second sound again, Sidney, if

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Speaker 1: you could play that one more time.

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Speaker 4: I need to know that you think we can help

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Speaker 4: your mom.

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Speaker 7: She said, I have more family members they can take

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Speaker 7: care of my sister. I took pictures and I told

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Speaker 7: my friend about it.

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Speaker 8: Was that bad?

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Speaker 9: Do you talk old about it?

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Speaker 10: My friend to.

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Speaker 4: Your friends that you send pictures to your friends?

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Speaker 2: So what you do?

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Speaker 7: Yeah? I didn't really the pictures off my phone, but

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Speaker 7: I sent him to him and I told him that

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Speaker 7: I was sorry. And then let's go bud. I'm okay, okay,

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Speaker 7: I'm really sad.

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Speaker 1: Joining me right now is high profile lawyer Jason Ocean's

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Speaker 1: New York based but really practice is all over criminal

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Speaker 1: and civil lawyer Jason Oceans.

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Speaker 2: Have you ever had one piece.

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Speaker 1: Of evidence and you have like this nine on one

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Speaker 1: call and you have to play it over and over

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Speaker 1: because each line proves so much. Because you have this

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Speaker 1: young perp who has just stabbed his mom in the neck,

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Speaker 1: the little baby sister just a few days old, lying

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Speaker 1: there with her, and he says not only that he

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Speaker 1: did it, but he's speaking what can I learn from.

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Speaker 2: This nine on one call? Just the part that I've

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Speaker 2: played so far. He is coherent.

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Speaker 1: He has taken pictures of his mother, this is his

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Speaker 1: bio mom. He's taken pictures of her lying dead with

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Speaker 1: her neck stabbed, and he has sent them to the friend.

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Speaker 1: And he says this one thing, this is very important.

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Speaker 1: It's critical.

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Speaker 2: Was that bad? People only say it was that bad

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Speaker 2: when they know it's bad. Was that wrong? Yeah? It

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Speaker 2: was wrong, Nancy.

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Speaker 3: He's barely barely thirteen, just twelve a little bit ago.

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Speaker 2: So is that what I asked you?

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Speaker 3: No, you did not ask Okay also called him a.

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Speaker 2: Purp because he murdered his mother.

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Speaker 3: Right, that's clearly he murdered his mother. There was no

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Speaker 3: question there.

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Speaker 2: And would you disagree that he is not the perpetrator.

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Speaker 3: Oh, he is the perpetrator.

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Speaker 2: So he is in fact the purp.

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Speaker 3: Yes, Nancy, as we break it down, he is the purp.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: Back to the original question in court, I would say

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Speaker 1: something like, as I looked at you glaringly, your honor,

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Speaker 1: may I refresh the witness's recollection? May I redirect the

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Speaker 1: witness as his answers are unresponsive?

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Speaker 2: And I will ask you again, have you ever had

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Speaker 2: a piece.

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Speaker 1: Of evidence that the more you looked at it, the

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Speaker 1: more you learned just one sentence, one piece of evidence,

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Speaker 1: that clip from that nine to one, one callback, one part

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Speaker 1: of it.

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Speaker 3: Well, as a prosecutor, Nancy, you're looking at critically and

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Speaker 3: you see everything inside your case right there to prove it.

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Speaker 3: I understand where you're coming from. I do not disagree

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Speaker 3: with you. You're going to play that over and over

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Speaker 3: in your head. You're going to play it over and

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Speaker 3: over for the jury. You're going to play it over

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Speaker 3: and over again. It's quite this positive. There's not much

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Speaker 3: to it. It's a slam duck for me as a

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Speaker 3: defense attorney goes beyond to mental health. You know the conference.

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Speaker 3: Is that wrong? That's not a purpose? Is that wrong?

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Speaker 3: That's a that's a little boy that's a troubled with

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Speaker 3: Despite what the outside looked at, something snapped, perhaps the

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Speaker 3: birth of the new child. Something happened that made him snap.

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Speaker 1: Well, frankly, unless it's a legal defense, I mean I

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Speaker 1: see things in uh everything, as you know, Jason, we're

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Speaker 1: longtime colleagues and friends.

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Speaker 2: Everything to me.

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Speaker 1: Now, once you go through law school and once you

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Speaker 1: try cases for a living, you begin to see the

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Speaker 1: world in a different way. Is it probative? Does it

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Speaker 1: prove something? Is it admissible? If it's not admissible, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to.

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Speaker 2: Hear about it.

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Speaker 1: I only want to know what I can put in

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Speaker 1: front of a jury and how I can interpret that,

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Speaker 1: and what is it true?

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Speaker 2: Is it real? Did this happen to you? I have

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Speaker 2: the right person.

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Speaker 1: Why I got to leave that up to a string

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Speaker 1: Like doctor James Carborino joining US, who specializes in what

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Speaker 1: causes violence in children, Professor's Psychology Emeritus, Cornell and Loyola

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Speaker 1: University of Chicago, Wow, author of Listening to Killers, Lessons

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Speaker 1: learned from twenty years as a psychological expert witness in

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Speaker 1: murder cases. Okay, I'm reading that, doctor James Garbarino. I'm

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Speaker 1: not saying that Jason otions is wrong. He's right, He's right.

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Speaker 1: Does that mean that goes into my now of how

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Speaker 1: I'm going to prove the case? I care about one thing.

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Speaker 1: Am I getting a true verdict? Am I telling the

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Speaker 1: jury the truth? Am I telling the jury the whole truth?

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Speaker 1: And us what I give the jury advance the truth?

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Speaker 1: So all I care about who did this? Where when

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Speaker 1: is it in my jurisdiction? And is there a legitimate

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Speaker 1: defense such a self defense, insanity accident? But doctor James Garbarino,

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Speaker 1: I want you to hear. Our cut three are friends

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Speaker 1: at crimeonline dot Com.

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Speaker 11: Derek Rosa is not your typical thirteen year old boy.

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Speaker 11: He's on the honor roll in eighth grade. Neighbors say

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Speaker 11: he is exceedingly nice and friendly. He is the model

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Speaker 11: son to his mother and respectful to his stepfather. He

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Speaker 11: has been a big help to his thirty nine year

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Speaker 11: old mother, Irena Garcia. She just gave birth to a

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Speaker 11: baby girl. A couple of weeks ago. Derek Rosa is

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Speaker 11: a good boy.

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Speaker 2: He is a good boy. Doctor Garmrino helped me.

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Speaker 10: You know, a lot of the the focus of the

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Speaker 10: criminal justice system is always, as you say, primarily what

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Speaker 10: did they do? Who did it? You know, the kind

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Speaker 10: of work that I've done for the last thirty years

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Speaker 10: as a psychological expert witness really tries to get at

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Speaker 10: who they are. I've worked on a number of kids

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Speaker 10: who killed their parents over the years. You know, a

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Speaker 10: lot of the kids who kill their parents it's called

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Speaker 10: reactive parasites and response to abuse. But I have worked

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Speaker 10: on cases like this that are mysterious at the outset

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Speaker 10: because you know, where does this come from? What does

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Speaker 10: it mean? How do we make sense of it? You know,

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Speaker 10: there are a number of possibilities. It's too early to know.

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Speaker 10: You know, there was a case in Oregon years ago

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Speaker 10: where a boy killed his parents and it turned out

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Speaker 10: he was slipping into schizophrenium's hearing voices. And you know,

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Speaker 10: the thing about hearing voices in America is a fascinating

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Speaker 10: study that finds that seventy percent of the voices that

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Speaker 10: schizophrenics here in America tell them to commit acts of

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Speaker 10: violence against themselves of others seventy percent. In India, it's

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Speaker 10: twenty percent. In Ghana and Africa it's ten percent. So

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Speaker 10: you know, we need to know what was his inner

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Speaker 10: life like, that's certainly one possibility. I mean, there are

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Speaker 10: other possibilities too that eventually may make sense of this.

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Speaker 10: But it certainly doesn't sound like this is. You know,

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Speaker 10: there's another case recently where boy killed his mother because

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Speaker 10: she wouldn't buy him some virtual reality headphones and he

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Speaker 10: was only you know, he was even younger than.

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Speaker 2: This boy nine. I'm a lady was nine.

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Speaker 10: You know, So we have to try to understand who

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Speaker 10: this is. This doesn't sound like it's the culmination of

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Speaker 10: an increasingly aggressive, any social kid who's entitled and maybe narcissistic,

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Speaker 10: maybe even on the road to becoming a psychopath. It

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Speaker 10: doesn't sound like that. It sounds like some very bizarre

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Speaker 10: thing going on in his head that was kept from

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Speaker 10: the adults around him.

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Speaker 1: Prime Stories with Nancy Grace. While the thirteen year old

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Speaker 1: was reportedly calm in the Miami Dade courtroom, family members

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Speaker 1: were much more emotional. The dad, mister Rosa, called for

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Speaker 1: a son to get a second chance. When the family

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Speaker 1: pled not guilty on behalf of the thirteen year old.

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Speaker 1: The dad states quote, I guess what we're asking for

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Speaker 1: is another opportunity, a second chance to help him grow

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Speaker 1: and become mature as a grown man, to put this

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Speaker 1: behind him.

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Speaker 2: Well, it didn't work.

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Speaker 1: Also, we are learning heart stopping baby cam images shows

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Speaker 1: the thirteen year old Florida Honor student standing over his

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Speaker 1: mother's bed just moments before he stabs her dead.

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Speaker 2: Joining me.

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Speaker 1: A longtime friend and colleague, Master Sergeant Ron Livingston with

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Speaker 1: the Florida Highway Patrol thirty.

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Speaker 2: Plus years in law enforcement.

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Speaker 1: Ron, I want you to take a listen to our

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Speaker 1: cut twelve more of than nine one one call. And

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Speaker 1: the reason I keep playing that is because it's very

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Speaker 1: hard for me to look.

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Speaker 2: At this kid.

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Speaker 1: And he is a kid, as Jason Ocean's accurately pointed out,

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Speaker 1: and his whole past behavior is completely completely opposite of

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Speaker 1: that one act of murder. But listen to this nine

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Speaker 1: one one call, Ron Livingston, I need.

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Speaker 4: To know if your moments is breathing.

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Speaker 7: Right all over the floor and why did you kill

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Speaker 7: your mom?

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Speaker 1: I need to know that you think we can help

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Speaker 1: your mom.

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Speaker 8: She could bring.

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Speaker 7: Over here what I live. What did you add you? Yes,

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Speaker 7: I took pictures and I told my friends about it

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Speaker 7: with that bad Do.

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Speaker 9: You talk old about it my friends?

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Speaker 4: Your friends, that you send pictures to your friends the

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Speaker 4: what you did?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, do not open.

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Speaker 4: Until I tell you to open the door, and to

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Speaker 4: make sure that you have nothing but yourself on in

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Speaker 4: your hands.

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Speaker 7: They're gonna tell me, No.

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Speaker 4: They're not gonna kill you.

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Speaker 2: We're here to help you.

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Speaker 4: Okay, We're gonna help your family.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Okay to Master Sergeant Ron Livingston, run If this

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Speaker 1: were an adult, I would be arguing right now. How

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Speaker 1: clearly he knows exactly what's going on. He has not

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Speaker 1: had a psychotic break. He is not insane. He knows

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Speaker 1: are coming in. He says, are they gonna kill me?

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Speaker 1: She says, do you have anything in your hands? He goes,

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Speaker 1: I've got a cell phone. Do you have anything else?

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Speaker 8: No?

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Speaker 1: Are they gonna kill me? He knows exactly what's gonna happen.

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Speaker 1: If cops come to the scene and he's got a

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Speaker 1: gun in his hands, they're gonna kill him. So there's

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Speaker 1: no way he's gonna be able to argue any kind

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Speaker 1: of insanity. Ron Livingston have you ever seen anything like

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Speaker 1: this or even closely akin to this.

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Speaker 8: You know, we're seeing this over and over and you know,

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Speaker 8: with with social media, with you know, with kids, they're

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Speaker 8: so focused on you know, social media, and you know

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Speaker 8: they watch all the bad things that that happen out here.

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Speaker 8: And so you know, the media has portrayed law enforcement,

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Speaker 8: you know, to be bad, which you know we're not.

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Speaker 8: We're there to help you, We're there to help everybody.

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Speaker 8: And so I think that's been the biggest you know,

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Speaker 8: as far as the portraying media and stuff, as far

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Speaker 8: as law enforcement. So I would assume that's where he's

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Speaker 8: getting this. The law enforcement's going to kill me and

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Speaker 8: we're not. We're there to help preserve the scene, to

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Speaker 8: start the investigation. Obviously, we have to take make sure

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Speaker 8: the threat is under control in law enforcement. There is

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Speaker 8: no threat in to law enforcement once they arrived too.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Tim Gallagher joining me.

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Speaker 1: We're now a medical examiner of the State of Florida,

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Speaker 1: lecturer University of Florida Medical School in the Forensic Medicine Division,

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Speaker 1: founder of the International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference. Doctor Gallagher,

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Speaker 1: this happened in your jurisdiction. This isn't Hialiah. Could you

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Speaker 1: explain to me? Is there any way that this new

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Speaker 1: mother his mother. She's got a little baby girl, fourteen

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Speaker 1: days old, and she's sleeping in the room with the baby.

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Speaker 1: Is there any way that the mother didn't feel what

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Speaker 1: happened to her? She was asleep when she was attacked.

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Speaker 1: I don't see away, but is there a way?

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Speaker 5: Most likely not, you know, unless she was asleep under

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Speaker 5: the influence of some substance. But when people get stabbed

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Speaker 5: and they are sober, they feel every second of it.

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Speaker 5: You know, you don't die from the stabbing. You actually

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Speaker 5: die from bleeding to death. So that takes quite a while,

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Speaker 5: and in that time, you were very, very aware of

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Speaker 5: what's happening, to the pain, your surroundings, who is doing

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Speaker 5: it to you, And that can go on for several

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Speaker 5: minutes before you finally sanguinate or bleed to death. So yes,

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Speaker 5: if she was not on the influence of anything that

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Speaker 5: was putting her asleep, she felt every second of it,

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Speaker 5: knew what was happening, and felt her life slipping.

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Speaker 6: Away from her.

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Speaker 9: Nancy, can I just yeah, I just wanted to jump

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Speaker 9: in out a little detail to that that he there

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Speaker 9: were some report that while we know that she was

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Speaker 9: stabbed in the bed, her body was discovered on the floor.

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Speaker 9: So I don't know if she had rolled off the bed,

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Speaker 9: or had tried to climb out of the bed, or

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Speaker 9: if they're going to be defensive wounds. But the body

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Speaker 9: was found on the floor, so that indicates to me

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Speaker 9: that she moved in some way, shape or form before

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Speaker 9: ultimately exseguinating.

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Speaker 1: And that adds to what that supports what you're saying,

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Speaker 1: Doctor Tim Gallagher, that she knew very well what was

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Speaker 1: happening and was trying to either get away or protect

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Speaker 1: her baby. I don't know what she was doing, but

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Speaker 1: she did get out of bed. What do you make

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Speaker 1: of that, doctor Gallagher?

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Speaker 5: Well, if you think about the emotional state that she

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Speaker 5: was in, you know, she just had this baby, so

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Speaker 5: she's in the mother bear mode. You know, she really

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Speaker 5: wants to protect the baby. Yet she's being attacked by

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Speaker 5: her son, who she's also there to protect because he's

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Speaker 5: really not of age to do that for.

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Speaker 6: Himself, you know.

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Speaker 5: So she was probably torn between those two circumstances in

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Speaker 5: a very unusual and very critical time of her life.

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Speaker 5: There and just I could see the confusion I could see,

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Speaker 5: you know why she was thinking, why is this happening

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Speaker 5: to me? You know what is going on? And just

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Speaker 5: a very very confusing point. And I'd like to know

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Speaker 5: if she did have any defensive wounds on her. But

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Speaker 5: just a crazy, crazy situation, just very very unusual.

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Speaker 1: New photos show the moment that the thirteen year old

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Speaker 1: hovered over his mom's bed before he stabbed her in

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Speaker 1: the neck dead with a kitchen knife. He has entered

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Speaker 1: a not guilty plea, but so far has not indicated

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Speaker 1: any type of a mental illness defense. We know that

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Speaker 1: she was lying on the floor next to the baby's crib.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if she was trying to make her way

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Speaker 1: to the baby.

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Speaker 6: I would hope, so, yeah, I would certainly hope.

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Speaker 1: So oh gosh, guys, we are talking about a teen

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Speaker 1: year old boy, deark Rosa, who was now charged with

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Speaker 1: first degree murder in the stabbing death of his own mother,

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Speaker 1: lying right next to her his fourteen day old little sister.

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Speaker 1: Caitlin Becker joining us dailymail dot com. Caitlin, how many

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Speaker 1: times was the mother stamped?

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Speaker 9: I don't know the exact number, Nancy, but I do

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Speaker 9: know that it was multiple times. It was a very

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Speaker 9: bloody scene and it was specifically in that sort of

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Speaker 9: neck and upper region.

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Speaker 1: To Jason Oshan is joining US high profile lawyer out

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Speaker 1: of New York and New Jersey. You know he is

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Speaker 1: going to be charged as an adult. There's really no choice.

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Speaker 1: What do you make of it?

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Speaker 3: No disagreement, Nancy. I mean, you know, when you have

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Speaker 3: the direct evidence, as you do as a prosecutor here,

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Speaker 3: you're pretty limited in your defense. I think the approach,

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Speaker 3: Nancy is, you know, some sort of a free and

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Speaker 3: hopefully you're getting him, you know, mental health assistance because

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Speaker 3: as the doctor is going to get something snapped.

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Speaker 1: You do know, Jayson Oshins, which we have discussed many

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Speaker 1: many times, snapped is not a defense. There's no such

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Speaker 1: thing as I snapped or everybody in the full accounty

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Speaker 1: you know what say I snapped and that I'll all

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Speaker 1: be walking out right now.

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Speaker 3: It may be snapping and saying it at the same

402
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Speaker 3: time as out, but for Layman's terms, we understand what

403
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Speaker 3: that is. Jury would understand that it's not a defense.

404
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:31,720
Speaker 3: It's just discovering the underneath motive, which background doesn't consistently

405
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Speaker 3: doesn't in any way you know, fit the violence of

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Speaker 3: the act. It just doesn't, Nancy, You and I both

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Speaker 3: know that. And so in this case, as you're dealing

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Speaker 3: with an almost a barely thirteen year old, just a

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Speaker 3: couple of weeks ago was twelve, you're constrained in thinking

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Speaker 3: that this young man should spend the rest of his

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Speaker 3: life in prison. It's not death penalty elviable, Supreme Court

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Speaker 3: is I'm not.

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Speaker 2: Thinking anything right now.

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Speaker 1: The duty of the prosecutor is to seek justice for

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Speaker 1: the state, and the state represents the victim, the crime victim.

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Speaker 1: The crime victim in this case is Arena Garcia, just

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Speaker 1: thirty nine years old when she was brutally murdered, stabbed

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Speaker 1: multiple times as she lying next to her fourteen day

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Speaker 1: old baby girl. That's the interest that I have. I

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Speaker 1: also care about what if anything went wrong with this

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Speaker 1: young boy. He is going to be charged as an adult,

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Speaker 1: as he should be. And yes, I have tried a

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Speaker 1: thirteen year old for murder. In that case, the thirteen

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Speaker 1: year old six three or four broke into a pawn shop, well,

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Speaker 1: crashed into a pawn shop, murdered, one left, another in

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Speaker 1: a wheelchair, and a third shot I believe with a

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Speaker 1: colostomy bag over a handful of dope ropes, which is

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Speaker 1: gold chains. Is this doctor Garbarina please Japan dot Ner Garborini.

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Speaker 10: Thank you. You know, I think, having worked on a

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Speaker 10: number of these juvenile cases over the year, and in

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Speaker 10: quite a number, I always think that we need to

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Speaker 10: figure out which group they're in to start with. There

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Speaker 10: is a group even at thirteen, as you point out,

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Speaker 10: who are so damaged that they know it's going to

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Speaker 10: take at least twenty years for them to recover. They

436
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Speaker 10: need to get to age twenty five, and we can

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Speaker 10: presume a mature brain, and then they need at least

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Speaker 10: ten years to use that mature brain to transform themselves

439
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Speaker 10: and rehabilitate and educate and all the rest of that.

440
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Speaker 10: And the evidence is actually pretty good that they can

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Speaker 10: get better, most of them do. That's really what's come

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Speaker 10: out of the Milli versus Alabama decision about not sending

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Speaker 10: juveniles to life without parole. That's one group.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you can no longer stand a javenile to life

445
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 1: with that parole, just like you cannot get a sentence

446
00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 1: of death penalty on a javenile.

447
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,920
Speaker 10: Right. The second group our kids who have basically been

448
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 10: intact in childhood, but they have a kind of adolescent crisis.

449
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:11,399
Speaker 10: It's often it's the onset of schizophrenia. It's a drug

450
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:17,640
Speaker 10: related thing, it's a influence of negative peers, a variety

451
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,639
Speaker 10: of things. The good news about them is most of

452
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 10: them actually could be dealt with as a juvenile setting

453
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,919
Speaker 10: aside the severity of the crime, which may preclude that

454
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 10: for political and moral and legal issues. But they typically

455
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:33,919
Speaker 10: you know, a guy once said to me in prison,

456
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 10: how can I get How can I be rehabilitated if

457
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,160
Speaker 10: I was never habilitated in the first place. And that's

458
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 10: an important point. It sounds like this boy was abilitated.

459
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 10: So this is a crisis that we need to understand

460
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 10: what's brought on the crisis, and he could be restored.

461
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 10: There is a third group. It's a much smaller group.

462
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 10: Who are you know, as a Supreme Court said, irreparably corrupt.

463
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 10: These are the kids who are simply on their way

464
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:01,119
Speaker 10: to becoming full blown psychopaths. And you know, I've worked

465
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,920
Speaker 10: enough cases too where it's not a matter of them

466
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 10: getting better. It's not so much a matter of a crisis.

467
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 10: It's a matter of something so profoundly wrong with them

468
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 10: that it would take a miracle to you know, to

469
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 10: transform that. So that's why I say, we need to

470
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,159
Speaker 10: understand who this is. I understand as a prosecutor, if I

471
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,239
Speaker 10: sit across from a lot of prosecutors. You know, one

472
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 10: one prosecutor in Florida said to me, I lived with

473
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 10: the stench of death, and I understand that mentality. But

474
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:30,879
Speaker 10: you know, the interest of the state here should also

475
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 10: be taking care of this boy.

476
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,160
Speaker 1: Well, I've got a question for you, doctor Garbarina. Who

477
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 1: could the birth of the little baby sister have been

478
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 1: some sort of a triggering event for him?

479
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 10: Well, certainly could have been. You know, it seems to

480
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 10: have happened in such close time proximity. You know, as

481
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 10: I understand that he was the only child before. Who

482
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 10: knows what this meant to him? You know, it's it's

483
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 10: the result of a stepfather in pregnant hitting his mother.

484
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 10: Who knows what that meant to him? You know, because

485
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 10: from a child's point of view, regardless of how good

486
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 10: the relationship is with the stepfather, he is an intruder

487
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 10: in a sense. So you know, we have to understand

488
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,920
Speaker 10: what this meant to him, because you know, I think

489
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 10: there's no such thing as senseless act of violence. It

490
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 10: always makes sense, you know, if we get inside the

491
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 10: head of the perpetrator enough, it makes sense. We may

492
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 10: not accept it, we may not appreciate it, but we

493
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,880
Speaker 10: have to get there. And I think, you know, I've

494
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 10: had some good experiences even in Florida, where prosecutors have

495
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 10: understood this, and so they they're willing to take a

496
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 10: plea that involves in taking care of this troubled boy.

497
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,119
Speaker 1: Well, I want you to hear something else. Dotor Garborrino

498
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:49,680
Speaker 1: and everyone on the panel. Listen to the boys' behavior. Afterwards,

499
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:51,920
Speaker 1: take a listen an hour cut seven from our friends

500
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 1: at crime online dot com.

501
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,400
Speaker 11: Neighbors in Hi Leah, Florida, shot footage as police showed

502
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 11: up to arrest a killer. The scene, filmed by neighbor

503
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 11: and post it online. Is not a crazed maniac. This

504
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 11: murderer is a thirteen year old honor student. The boy

505
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 11: is standing timidly on the balcony of his apartment as

506
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 11: he is on the phone with nine to one one.

507
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 11: The boy called to confess, and now the nine one

508
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 11: one operator is giving him instructions. The boy follows the instructions,

509
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 11: putting his hands up in the air and obeying the

510
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 11: police directly in front of him. When the police finally

511
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 11: get close enough, they take Derek Rosa to the ground hard.

512
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 11: He's put in handcuffs and taken away.

513
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,640
Speaker 1: To Caitlin Becker joining us, seeing investigative reporter dailymail dot com.

514
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 1: He clearly is following instructions. He understands what's happening. He

515
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 1: is not out of his mind. He's not having a

516
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 1: psychotic break. All that is actually going to work against

517
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 1: him at trial because he clearly knows what's going on

518
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: and he knows what he did was wrong.

519
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 2: Caitlin, you hear.

520
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 9: That sadness and that remorse in the call. You can

521
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 9: hear him getting choked up and being overwhelmed by his

522
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,239
Speaker 9: alleged actions. I do think that will work against him

523
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 9: at trial. But Nancy on the flip side, At one point,

524
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 9: the dispatcher asks him his address. He doesn't know his address.

525
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 9: I feel like a defense attorney's going to say this

526
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 9: thirteen year old boy who is barely even thirteen, who

527
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 9: didn't even know where he lived, didn't understand the magnitude

528
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 9: of his actions. Maybe until after it was it was done.

529
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 9: I don't know. I think that a jury might look

530
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:29,719
Speaker 9: at the nine one one call and hear this broken

531
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 9: little boy calling and you know, talking to the dispatcher

532
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 9: and responding to her no miss, yes, miss, and being

533
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 9: polite and sort of trying to rectify that version of

534
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 9: the child who's on the phone with the brutality of

535
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 9: the murder. I think it's going to be tough.

536
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,239
Speaker 1: To Jason Otionans, a veteran trial lawyer, and I'm going

537
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 1: to quote verbat him the law one may immediately regret

538
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 1: the date, but that regret does not negate intent at

539
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 1: the time of the act. Prime Stories with Nancy Grace.

540
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: He's caught on the baby cam killing her. He admits

541
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: to the nine on one operator. He even sends pictures

542
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: of his mom's dead body to friends. They better think

543
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: of a defense, and think of it fast. He has

544
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 1: to creep into the mother's room while she lay sleeping.

545
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 1: He waits until the moment she is asleep, in the

546
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 1: dark of the night. He goes in with a knife.

547
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: He goes into the mother's bedroom with a knife. There

548
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: are multiple stabs. Premeditation can be formed in the twinkling

549
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 1: of a moment, so between each stab is another period

550
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 1: in which premeditation can be formed.

551
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 2: That's what premeditation means.

552
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 1: Now, it may not mean that to a lay person

553
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: on this street, but the jury, if there is one,

554
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 1: will be instructed that that is what premeditation means. It's

555
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: not a long drawn out scheme such as someone poisoning

556
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 1: the victim over a period of months or even years.

557
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 1: It can be formed in an instant. So he has premeditation.

558
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 1: He knows what he is doing is wrong.

559
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 2: What about that and nance.

560
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 3: I'm not going to disagree with you in any of

561
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 3: your approach and your prosecutorial position. You've explained it, well,

562
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 3: you've articulated it.

563
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 8: You're going to go ahead.

564
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 3: The only thing I would say, relative to being counsel

565
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 3: for the defenders, don't over prosecute because he's notwithstanding all

566
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 3: of your case, he's still sympathetic at barely.

567
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 2: Thirty, Yes he is, he is too.

568
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 1: Master Sergeant Ron Livingston joining us out of this jurisdiction

569
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 1: in Florida, are giminals this age housed in an adult

570
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: jail facility, No.

571
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 8: Ma'am, they will be how in a juvenile detention facility

572
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 8: in the state of Florida. We're not allowed. Juveniles are

573
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 8: not allowed to be in a jail with adults longer

574
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 8: than six hours, So process, what's the process? They're taken

575
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 8: out and turned over the Department of Juvenile Justice.

576
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 2: In the last hours.

577
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: This young man, thirteen year old Derreck Rosa, has pled

578
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: not guilty in a court of law. And you may

579
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 1: be very surprised at what happens in court, taking us

580
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 1: now our cut.

581
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 10: Ah, it's very unfortunate that this tragedy occurred. But this

582
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 10: child is very humble, very peaceful.

583
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 1: Now you are hearing his father, his biological father, mister Rossa,

584
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 1: in court. He describes his son as humble and peaceful

585
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,239
Speaker 1: and more. Takeing us now our cut and be as

586
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 1: in brother.

587
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 10: It's hard for us to explain how this occurred.

588
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 7: You know, it's it's difficult, but I guess what we're

589
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 7: asking for to another opportunity. It's second chance to help

590
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 7: him grow and become mature, as to grow mad, to

591
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 7: put this.

592
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 2: Behind him, to say we have your back, were here

593
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:17,239
Speaker 2: to support you.

594
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: Caitlin Becker are joining us from dailymail dot com. What

595
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: happened in court or it.

596
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 9: Was really emotional. Not only was it the young boy's

597
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 9: father was also his grandmother. They spent some twenty letters

598
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 9: of support trying to get him a little bit of leniency,

599
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 9: and in court when the charges were upgraded to first

600
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 9: degree murder and he was charged as an adult, he

601
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 9: was taken out of the juvenile facility and remanded into

602
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 9: an adult facility. I don't know how long he stayed

603
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 9: there or if he's still there, but his attorney in court,

604
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 9: attorney Kristin Renoso, had plans to request what's called in

605
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 9: arthur hearing to try to secure him bond, even though

606
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 9: it's not a bondifule eventse and she also requested in

607
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 9: court that her client be returned to juvenile custody, but

608
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 9: that is something the judge said that they would have

609
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 9: to determine at a later date and they were going

610
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 9: to review all of that. So I do know he

611
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 9: was taken into an adult facility. I don't know how

612
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,760
Speaker 9: long he would have remained, but he's going to stay

613
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 9: in custody until his next hearing, which at this point

614
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 9: isn't until February.

615
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:25,919
Speaker 1: Back to a master's chargeant Ron Livingston, it's confusing when

616
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: you hear the verbiage that we just heard from Caitlin Becker,

617
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 1: and everything she said is correct. The judge has to

618
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 1: determine the exact age of the defendant, and that has

619
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 1: to be weighed against the charges. But this juvenile will

620
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 1: be housed separately from adults. He will not be in

621
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,720
Speaker 1: general population, he will not have an adult roommate.

622
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 2: None of that's happening.

623
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 1: He is being taken to an adult facility until it's

624
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 1: sorted out where he should be because he's charged with murder.

625
00:34:59,360 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 8: One.

626
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 1: But in the state of Florida and across the country,

627
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: juveniles are not put in sales or amongst grown men.

628
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 2: That is not happening. Please confirm that is, ma'am.

629
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 8: They cannot be an eyesight, nor can they speak or

630
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 8: talk to any any adults. You know. Typically, and in

631
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 8: this case might be a little different. I mean, the

632
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 8: judge could actually overrule it. But typically the law in

633
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:31,879
Speaker 8: Florida is is that juvenile does not stay in.

634
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 2: The in in an adult.

635
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 8: Jail for longer than a process and then they're removed.

636
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 8: Now Miami day, they might have a you know, a

637
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:45,399
Speaker 8: section that's completely segregated from the adults to where they

638
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 8: put him and house him to where he is not

639
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:52,399
Speaker 8: in view contact, can't speak to any adults. That's that's

640
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 8: very strictly prohibited.

641
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:57,320
Speaker 1: Yes, guys, I want you to also hear more of

642
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 1: this young man's father, mister Rossa in court.

643
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 7: Listen, Derek's mother recently had a child and she was

644
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 7: overwhelmed with a lot of the work.

645
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 4: Is not taking away anything from what occurred, and I

646
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 4: wish he could bring you knows back to guests before

647
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 4: that occurred.

648
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: To doctor Tim Gallagher, medical examiner for the State of

649
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 1: Florida and the founder of the International Forensic Medicine Death

650
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 1: Investigation Conference, Doctor Gallagher, I want to go through we

651
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 1: keep talking about the boy.

652
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 2: What happened to the boy?

653
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 1: The boys an honor student, He had always been timid,

654
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 1: he was great son, very respectful, on and on and on.

655
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: I want to talk about the mother. The new mother.

656
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 1: Tell me what she went through as her life ebbed

657
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 1: away from her and she tried valiantly to get over

658
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 1: to the crib where her fourteen day old daughter was sleeping.

659
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 5: Well, Nancy, I mean she's in a very very difficult position.

660
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:05,720
Speaker 5: As we discussed before, she is in fight or flight mode.

661
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 5: Now she doesn't know whether to run and save her

662
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 5: life or to run back to her crib and protect

663
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 5: her newborn baby. So she is going to be in

664
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,879
Speaker 5: the presence of the sun with the knife, you know, for.

665
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 6: As long as it takes.

666
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 5: She's probably already received a fatal wound. She is bleeding,

667
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 5: She's actively bleeding to death at this point, and she

668
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 5: has a decision to make, you know, do I sacrifice

669
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 5: my life for the safety of my newborn. Do I

670
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,919
Speaker 5: run and try to save myself, you know, by going

671
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 5: out the door and exiting the situation. All this time,

672
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 5: she is getting weaker. She is getting weaker, and the

673
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,359
Speaker 5: ability for her to reason is becoming less as the

674
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 5: as less amount of blood can reach her brain and

675
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 5: affect her reasoning center. So she is in a very

676
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 5: difficult position in it. And it looked like ultimately she

677
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 5: chose to protect her baby because that's approximately where she

678
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 5: was found when she was deceased. So very very difficult situation.

679
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 2: Doctor Gallagher.

680
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 1: And I've done this myself in the case of my

681
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 1: fiance being murdered. I like to tell myself, well, he

682
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 1: didn't feel it, he didn't suffer because he was shot

683
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 1: so many times in the face and the neck, in

684
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 1: the head. But you know what, doctor Gallagher, that's probably

685
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 1: not true because people that have survived gunshot wounds. Some

686
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 1: of them have said I didn't even realize I was hit.

687
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 1: Others say how much it hurt. Stab wounds have got

688
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 1: to be just incredibly painful. I think she really suffered it.

689
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 1: She got out of the bed and tried to get

690
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 1: to the baby's crib. She knew she was bleeding, she

691
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 1: knew she had been stabbed. She probably knew who had

692
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 1: stabbed her as she was dying. I have no doubt

693
00:38:58,239 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 1: in my mind she suffered.

694
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 6: Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah.

695
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 5: People who get shot in the bed don't even wake up,

696
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:08,360
Speaker 5: you know, they are found exactly where they were sleeping.

697
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:10,359
Speaker 6: But people who get stabbed wake up.

698
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 5: They feel the pain, and they wake up and they

699
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 5: try to defend themselves.

700
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:16,359
Speaker 6: And this apparently is the case here.

701
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 5: And that's the result of knowing what's going on, of

702
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:19,879
Speaker 5: feeling the pain.

703
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 6: Yes, they were suffering.

704
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 10: I'm sorry, Nancy, this is Jim Garbarino again. You know,

705
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 10: I think we haven't talked about. You know, obviously a

706
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 10: lot of things here. One being you know, was committing

707
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:33,879
Speaker 10: this crime may have put him in a what's called

708
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 10: a dissociate of a state that just disconnected, and that

709
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 10: may be reflected in his call. But the other thing

710
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 10: is he talks about having a gun and not using

711
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,720
Speaker 10: it on himself, which suggests that he chose the knife

712
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 10: over the gun because he had access to both, and

713
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 10: that I think may end up being significant and understanding

714
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 10: the crime, because as you well know, stabbing is a

715
00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 10: very different internal process often than shoot And it really

716
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 10: again suggests to me that there's something we don't know

717
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 10: yet that's really deep and big and dark inside him

718
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,720
Speaker 10: that led to this particular form of attack. And again

719
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 10: I think we just got to understand this because it's

720
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 10: not like it's not like a lot of other murders

721
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 10: that juvenile has committed. And I just hope the system

722
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:28,359
Speaker 10: will be able to find a way to understand that

723
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,319
Speaker 10: make sense of it. And I think, as I said,

724
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 10: this gun versus knife issue may be a clue to

725
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:35,879
Speaker 10: what was going on.

726
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 2: We wait as just as some point goodbye for that