1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,159 Speaker 1: today's best minds. We're on vacation, but that doesn't mean 4 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:11,560 Speaker 1: we don't have a great show for you today. The 5 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: Associated Press is Mary Claire Jelanik stops by to talk 6 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 1: about her new book Storm at the Capitol in Oral 7 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,440 Speaker 1: History of January sixth. But first we have University of 8 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: Texas School of Law Michelle Dickerson about her new book, 9 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: The Middle Class, New Deal, Restoring Upward Mobility and the 10 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: American Dream. Welcome to Fast Politics, Michelle. 11 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:36,840 Speaker 2: I'm glad to be here. 12 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me on the show. 13 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: You know, I love academics and whenever we can get 14 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: academics in because you know, it elevates us. And you 15 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 1: have such an important and interesting specialty. So can you 16 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: explain to us what your field of study is a 17 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: little bit before we get going. 18 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, and so one of the great things about being 19 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 3: an academic is you can write about things and teach 20 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 3: things even though you may not actually be an expert 21 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 3: in those things. And so I actually started my teaching 22 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:10,960 Speaker 3: career as a bankruptcy professor, and I wrote my first 23 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 3: book on home ownership, which wasn't exactly bankruptcy, but it 24 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 3: was dead. And then as I was working on that book, 25 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 3: I realized, you know, the problem, at least the problems 26 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 3: that I'm interested in aren't bankruptcy, and there's some debt, 27 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,119 Speaker 3: but I'm really focused more now on sort of economic 28 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 3: income wealth inequality. So I've taught a couple of classes 29 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 3: on that as I was working on this book, But 30 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 3: my main area of sort of expertise, at least when 31 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 3: I started teaching, had nothing to do with what I'm 32 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 3: writing about and doing. 33 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 1: Now, Oh that's really interesting. So how did you get 34 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: to the middle class new deal? How did you get 35 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: from bankruptcy law to how to avoid bankruptcy? I guess yeah, So. 36 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 3: I started with bankruptcy, and then I started thinking there's 37 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 3: something going on here with debt and sort of human beings. 38 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 3: So I've never written much about sort of corporate debt, 39 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 3: although I knew it and sort of taught it, but 40 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 3: didn't really have a strong interest in it. What really 41 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,799 Speaker 3: moved me was what's going on in the lives of humans. 42 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 3: So the first thing I noticed was how hard it 43 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 3: was for people to be able to buy a home. 44 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 3: So I thought, let me write about home ownership, and 45 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 3: home ownership has had terrific benefits for some folks, not 46 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 3: so much for others. And then as I was looking 47 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 3: at home ownership, I realized, no, the problem isn't just 48 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 3: that people can't afford to buy homes. They can't even 49 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 3: find affordable housing to rent. And so by then the 50 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 3: first book was finished, and so I thought, so, let's 51 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:48,119 Speaker 3: focus on housing, on affordability. And then I realized, oh, no, 52 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 3: it's not just that housing isn't affordable. Being a middle 53 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 3: class person in this country has become unaffordable. It's housing, 54 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 3: it's paying for your kids to go to college, it's everything. 55 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 3: It's childcare, it's childcare exactly. It's as if we've turned 56 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 3: being middle class in this country and being a stable 57 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 3: member of the middle class into the impossible dream. And 58 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 3: so that's what sort of led me to the space 59 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 3: of saying, what is going on here? Why are we 60 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 3: where we are? And what can we do to fix it? 61 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, Trump world may not want to deal 62 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: with this problem, but they're clearly being smacked in the 63 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 1: head with it. Right Exactly, prices healthcare costs are going 64 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: to go up, with the Obamacare tax credits expiring like 65 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: they are at every point getting you know, this whole 66 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:44,839 Speaker 1: affordability issue is actually about inflation and things getting even 67 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: more expensive. So there certainly we've seen some things that 68 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: look like they work or they start to work, like 69 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 1: I'm thinking of the child tax credit. But I'd love 70 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: to hear what you think are the kind of solved. 71 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 2: I'm glad you mentioned the child tax credit. 72 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 3: One of the things that I do in the book 73 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 3: and I also do when I teach and in some 74 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 3: of the other things I'm working on now, is I 75 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 3: take us back to COVID. So we're in the year 76 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 3: twenty nineteen. All of these things that people were saying, oh, 77 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 3: it's impossible to fix filling them like it's impossible to 78 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 3: do universal basic income. We can't just send people money. 79 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 3: It's impossible to work from home. Everybody's got to come 80 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 3: into the office every single day. And so all of 81 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:31,480 Speaker 3: these things that we said it wasn't possible to do, COVID, 82 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 3: as we all know, stopped life as we knew it 83 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 3: and forced us to look at what life could become. 84 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 3: One of the things that we saw there, though, was 85 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 3: the childcare issue and the fact that schools, public schools specifically, 86 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 3: really do more than just educate children, particularly lower and 87 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 3: middle income children. They also provide childcare safe and affordable 88 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 3: because it's free, mostly childcare, so that people can work. 89 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:02,719 Speaker 3: So one of the things that I propose in the book, 90 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 3: and I have lots of you know, you know, sort 91 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 3: of wild pie in the sky, some may say crazy 92 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 3: suggestions in the book, but one of the things I 93 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 3: ask is, why do we have a public school calendar 94 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 3: that's not aligned with the work lives lower and middle 95 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 3: income families. So it's lovely that children are in school 96 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:25,719 Speaker 3: from roughly third or fourth week of August until roughly 97 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 3: Memorial Day, but people have to work all year. 98 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 4: You know. 99 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 3: It's lovely that we have kids in school from eight 100 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 3: to four or eight to three or whatever the school 101 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 3: day is. That's great, but that doesn't line up really 102 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 3: well with what normal human beings have to do in 103 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 3: terms of getting to work. And so we saw during COVID, 104 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 3: when childcare centers shut down, when public schools shut down, 105 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:54,239 Speaker 3: lots of mothers had to just give up on working. 106 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 3: Lots of parents couldn't work. So one of the things 107 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 3: that I try to do in the book is that 108 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 3: I'm arguing, let's stop saying what can't be done, because 109 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 3: COVID showed we can do anything if we really want 110 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 3: to or we're forced to. And let's ask how creative 111 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 3: can we be with things like how public school buildings 112 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 3: are used and how often they should be used. 113 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: As someone who has multiple children and has puzzled as 114 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:26,160 Speaker 1: to why school is over at three when in fact 115 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: no one has ever ended work at three o'clock ever, 116 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 1: I wonder about that too. I mean, certainly the summer 117 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: is insane. There's nobody in the world who does not 118 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: work June, July, August, and that strikes me as perhaps 119 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: a heavier lift than just schools that have a place 120 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: for the kids to hang out till five. I mean, 121 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: is that doable? 122 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 3: I think it is doable because the school buildings are 123 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 3: still there, and at least for public schools, they are 124 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 3: using them during the summers. They use them for summer camps, 125 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 3: they use them for I mean, at least in the South, 126 00:06:59,000 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 3: which is where I am. 127 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 2: You know, they're open pretty much every. 128 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 3: Sunday because they often have churches that are renting the 129 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 3: spaces to use them on Sundays. But you make a 130 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 3: great point about the summers are a nightmare now for 131 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 3: people with means, And so in the book I put 132 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 3: people in the cluster of rich and lower rich because 133 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 3: I hate the term upper middle class. It's just rich 134 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 3: folks that don't want to own it. My kids are 135 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 3: grown now, but oh my goodness, you'd have to start 136 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 3: over Christmas planning for what are the camps and when 137 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 3: are the deadlines? And can you reach up the weeks 138 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 3: to what your kids. 139 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 2: Want to do? Well? 140 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 3: If you are poor or middle income, you don't have 141 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 3: that economic luxury. You are struggling in the summer. Can 142 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 3: I take off a couple of weeks of vacation? Do 143 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 3: I have neighbors that can kids? Can I take them 144 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 3: to vacation? Bible School? Can you know a grandparent you know? 145 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 3: Can we When are the kids going to be old 146 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 3: enough where I can legally leave them at home alone? 147 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 3: And so the current school calendar makes sense if we're 148 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 3: all still farmers. It makes absolutely no sense now that 149 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 3: we're not primarily an agrarian economy. 150 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: I mean, school seems like an easy thing to expand, 151 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: but it's there, it exists. You expand it, maybe you 152 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: don't have it be more school, you have it be 153 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: something that looks like school. But that seems easy. But 154 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: other things I'm thinking about, like the problem that we 155 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 1: see a lot of male pundits obsess about is housing, 156 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: getting it and making it affordable. What is your sense 157 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: on housing? 158 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 3: Well, we have to be honest, and one of the 159 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 3: things that I sort of am brutally honest throughout the book. 160 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 3: We have to be honest about what we value and 161 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 3: who we value. So let's talk about housing. As long 162 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:46,439 Speaker 3: as we allow rich and lower rich families to decide 163 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 3: who gets the right to live in their neighborhoods and 164 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 3: more importantly, who's children get the right to go to 165 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 3: school with their children, they were never going to solve 166 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 3: any problems. So if you think of about housing, particularly 167 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 3: high income housing, there's going to be a homeowner's association. 168 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 3: They are there, and I'm being somewhat flip here, but 169 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 3: their whole purpose is to make sure that poor people 170 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 3: never move into their neighborhood, and they're going to make 171 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 3: sure that there's never affordable housing built in their communities. 172 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 3: Because once you have affordable housing, you will have people 173 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,559 Speaker 3: that are in need of affordable housing, and they won't 174 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 3: be rich and lower rich. So as long as we 175 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 3: allow localities to have zoning laws which are exclusionary, so 176 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 3: you have to have a minimum lot size of an acre, 177 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,199 Speaker 3: or you have to have a home that's no smaller 178 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 3: than thirty five hundred square feet, and you have to 179 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 3: have a certain setback from the home to the street. 180 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 3: Those are designed to protect very large homes, and the 181 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 3: only people that can afford to move into very large 182 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 3: homes are rich people. So if we move to the 183 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 3: federal side, and I've argued for this, and lots of 184 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 3: other people have argued for this for decades and you 185 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 3: know we're still failing with that doesn't mean I'm not 186 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 3: going to keep arguing for it. We need to get 187 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 3: rid of the mortgage interest deduction. When you look at 188 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 3: the tax code now, the only people that really itemize 189 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 3: in large numbers are rich people. Normal people take the 190 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:19,959 Speaker 3: standard deduction, which means that the mortgage interest deduction only 191 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 3: subsidizes the housing cost of rich people. And there's no 192 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 3: reason we need to do that because rich people are 193 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 3: going to buy homes whether they get the mortgage deduction 194 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 3: or not. So there are lots of things that we 195 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:36,359 Speaker 3: could do, but we have to say that we value 196 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 3: having affordable housing for lower and middle income families so 197 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 3: that they can maybe buy a house and you know, 198 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 3: build up some household wealth and become middle class. Either 199 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 3: we value that or we don't. And if we don't 200 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 3: value it, we just need to say it. 201 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: Right, which, of course that's the ultimate problem in American 202 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: life is you can't get anyone to say the truth. 203 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: But housing also can also be a trap, right, especially 204 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 1: a trap for the poor. Can you talk us through that? 205 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 3: The best example I'll use is the run up to 206 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 3: the two thousand and seven two thousand and nine Great Recession. 207 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 3: Home ownership rates are be clear. Housing sales were slowing, 208 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 3: and the real estate industry and the lending industry said, 209 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 3: we need to get more young people to buy homes. 210 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 3: The group that they specifically targeted were non white, so black, 211 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 3: young black couples, young Latino couples. We need to get 212 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 3: them to buy homes. And they succeeded. But the joke 213 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 3: that I make, which isn't it's sort of a sick joke, 214 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 3: is you got people in the front door and then 215 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 3: they got evicted out the back door. So we had 216 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 3: all of these you know, people were buying homes and 217 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 3: but they couldn't afford to buy them. So you're absolutely right, 218 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,079 Speaker 3: it was a trap because you convinced people to take 219 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 3: out these crazy mortgage loans, which fortunately can no longer 220 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 3: be offered, with this hope that they would eventually, at 221 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 3: some point be able to actually stay in their homes. 222 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 3: The other reason that it's a trap, and so that 223 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 3: was sort of a clear trap. You sign this mortgage 224 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:12,679 Speaker 3: alan you really can't afford to repay it, and. 225 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 2: Then you end up getting evicted. 226 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 3: The trap that we often don't see is tied to jobs. 227 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 3: You have lots of people that may want to buy 228 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:23,319 Speaker 3: a home, but they're not sure if they're going to 229 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 3: have the same job in the same city in five years. 230 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 3: So if you were lucky enough to buy a home 231 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 3: and you're still there thirty years later when you pay 232 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 3: off that thirty year mortgage, it's great. But if you're 233 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 3: like most young people where you have a job for 234 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 3: eighteen months and then you have a job someplace sells 235 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 3: for three years, it may or may not be in 236 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 3: the same city or even same state as your first job, 237 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 3: then it's a trap. Because you've bought this home, you 238 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 3: really want to take a higher paying job in another city, 239 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 3: but you can't afford to do it because you can't 240 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 3: get rid of the home. So they're great things about 241 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 3: home ownership, and I cover you know, a lot of 242 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 3: those in the first book I wrote, But it's also 243 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 3: a trap depending on just what happens in the homeowner's life. 244 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:12,559 Speaker 1: Can we talk about healthcare because that strikes me as 245 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: the biggest financial right. I mean, it leads to bankruptcy, 246 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 1: So talk us through that. 247 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, So one thing I'll say about health care and 248 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 3: bankruptcies are when I used to teach bankruptcy and when 249 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 3: I talk about it now, people often think that the 250 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:31,559 Speaker 3: reason people file for bankruptcy because of health care expenses 251 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 3: is because they are uninsured. And in fact, most people 252 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 3: have insurance, but their insurance doesn't cover the copays or 253 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 3: all of the other expenses involved with health insurance. 254 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 2: So to explain sort of why. 255 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:48,199 Speaker 3: Health insurance is so profoundly messed up in this country, 256 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:50,959 Speaker 3: I'll take us back to how did we end up 257 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 3: in this space? And I go back really to the New. 258 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 2: Deal or World War Two. 259 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 3: So employers there were paps on what employers could pay workers, 260 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 3: and so they couldn't give people wages. So What they 261 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 3: did was they created benefits, and one of the main 262 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 3: benefits was health insurance and a retirement plan. And that's 263 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,680 Speaker 3: sort of a whole different conversation. But we said, we 264 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 3: can't give you a raise before we can offer you 265 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 3: our benefits. Ever since then, health insurance has been linked 266 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 3: to employment. So if your boss happens not to offer 267 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 3: you a plan, you don't have health insurance. I had 268 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 3: a funny moment. I used to teach a course. There 269 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 3: was a cross listed class, so I had both law 270 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 3: students and I had public policy students and schools from 271 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 3: the school from our School of Education, and I had 272 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 3: a lot of international students in the class. So we 273 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 3: were talking about all of the ways that the middle 274 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 3: class is struggling in this country. And we would be 275 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 3: in small groups, and so there was an international student 276 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 3: in one of the small groups that asked when we 277 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 3: were in the sort of reconvened as a whole, and 278 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 3: she said, I just don't understand every time you all 279 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 3: talk about health insurance, you always talk about jobs. What 280 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 3: is your job have to do with health insurance? And 281 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 3: then we had to explain to her, well, that's how 282 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 3: we do it here. 283 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 2: I think she was from the Netherlands. 284 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 3: We get y'all don't do it that way in Europe, 285 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 3: but this is why we do it the way that 286 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 3: we do it here. And so when we think of 287 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 3: the middle class, you have people that are hoping to 288 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 3: have a full time, forty hour a week job with benefits. 289 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 2: Many don't. 290 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 3: So that may have been the norm before the eighties, 291 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 3: that's not the norm now. So if you don't have 292 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 3: a job with benefits and you have to pay for 293 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 3: your own health insurance, if you lose your job, you 294 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 3: lose your health insurance if your employer pays for it. 295 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 3: But if you lose your job, you can't afford to 296 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 3: pay for health insurance. And so it's really a lose 297 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 3: lose because again, this country doesn't really value making life 298 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 3: stable and secure for middle and lower income folks in 299 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 3: this country. 300 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: Oh it doesn't. And also that's so insane. Just quickly, 301 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: if you're a democratic president, because the Republican president it's 302 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: not going to do anything. But you're a democratic president 303 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: and you have your first piece of legislation, what is it? 304 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 3: I think actually my first piece of legislation would be 305 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 3: to get rid of the mortgage interest deduction because a 306 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 3: lot of things that I'm suggesting in the book can't 307 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 3: be accomplished on the federal level. They'd have to be 308 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 3: accomplished on the state level. But the main thing I 309 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 3: would do is to look at the tax code, because 310 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 3: you can tell the country's values and priorities based on 311 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 3: the tax code. So first, get rid of the mortgage 312 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 3: interest deduction, but right behind it, or maybe even if 313 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 3: I get rid of that, wait, why because it increases 314 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 3: the price of housing. 315 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. 316 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 3: When rich people can deduct interest, then they bid up 317 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 3: the price of housing because they know that the tax 318 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 3: code is going to partially subsidize their housing. Oh. 319 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: I was like, why would you get rid of mortgage? Right? 320 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: But that makes sense? 321 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 3: Oh wow, okay, and actually I want to flip now 322 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 3: that'll be second. The first one is we have to 323 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 3: be willing to tax billionaires more than we do now. 324 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: Oh no, we can't do that. I'm sorry, I know, 325 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: I know, yeah, heresy, I know it's awful. But every 326 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 1: time I talk about, you know, we need to do 327 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: this for the middle class, we need to do that 328 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 1: for the middle class, the response is, well, where is 329 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: the money going to come from? You know, we need 330 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: to be concerned about the fact that AI is now 331 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: eliminating entry level jobs for college graduates. Well, but you 332 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: know that's the market. But we've artificially distorted the market. 333 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: And if we want to talk about the market, can 334 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 1: you tell me why billionaires are taxed at a lower 335 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 1: rate now than they were when the US economy was robust, 336 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 1: was strong and has a thriving middle class. So I 337 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,119 Speaker 1: think the first thing we have to do, a democratic 338 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:47,959 Speaker 1: president has to do is to undo most, if not all, 339 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: of the tax cuts that have been put in place 340 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 1: sort of in the first Trump administration and then during 341 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: the current administration. I think it's so important and so insane, 342 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: it's not thank you, thank you, in you Michelle. 343 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,679 Speaker 2: Oh, it's been great to be here. Thanks for having. 344 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 1: We have exciting news over at our YouTube channel. The 345 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 1: second episode from our Project twenty twenty nine series is 346 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,680 Speaker 1: out now. It's a reimagining where we examine what went 347 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 1: wrong with democrats approach to politics and how we can 348 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: correct it and deliver changes to help people's lives. The 349 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: first episode dove into the very sexy topic of campaign 350 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: finance reform, and our second episode deals with an even 351 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 1: sexier topic, antitrust and regulation. We look at how anti 352 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 1: trust and regulation can protect American citizens and make America 353 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 1: thrive in an era of rampant corruption and predatory crony capitalism. 354 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 1: We talk to the smartest names in the field like 355 00:18:54,720 --> 00:19:01,880 Speaker 1: Lena Kahn, Alvero Bedoya, Elizabeth Wilkins, and Doi. Republicans were 356 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 1: prepared for when they got the levers of power. We 357 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: need Democrats to be too. So please head over to 358 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:12,120 Speaker 1: YouTube and search Mollie John Fast Project twenty twenty nine, 359 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: or go to the Fast Politics YouTube channel and find 360 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:21,920 Speaker 1: it there and help us spread the word. Mary Claire 361 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: Jolanic covers Congress for the Associated Press and is the 362 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:28,919 Speaker 1: author of Storm at the Capitol and Oral History of 363 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 1: January sixth. Welcome to Fast Politics, Mary Claire. 364 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 4: Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here. 365 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 1: So the book is about that day. Tell me were 366 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,160 Speaker 1: you at the Capitol on January sixth, and start by 367 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:43,959 Speaker 1: telling me what it was like if you want, or 368 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: how you got to writing them. 369 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 4: Yes, I was there covering. I'm a reporter for the 370 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 4: Associated Press. I cover Congress. I covered Congress for twenty 371 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,919 Speaker 4: years just doing my job. You know, I've covered those before. 372 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 4: Certifications of presidential victories. They're usually pretty routine. We knew 373 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 4: this one would maybe not be routine, but we certainly 374 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 4: didn't expect the way it turned out. I was there 375 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 4: in the house covering it and ended up, you know, 376 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,479 Speaker 4: eventually sort of you know, hiding in the in the 377 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 4: gallery and the press gallery as we were watching people 378 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 4: try to beat down the doors below. And you know, 379 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 4: we eventually did get out, obviously, and they didn't reach 380 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 4: the house. But it was a really violent, scary, crazy 381 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,239 Speaker 4: day in the Capitol. I was sort of covering it 382 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,959 Speaker 4: from the minutes of being in that gallery, and I've 383 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,120 Speaker 4: been covering it ever since. And that sort of led 384 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 4: to the book, and you know, I had all these 385 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 4: stories from lawmakers, from police, from you know, so many 386 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 4: people who were there, reporters, and it just seemed to 387 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 4: make sense to put it in an oral history, to 388 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 4: sort of give people the facts of the day told 389 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 4: by the people who were there. 390 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 1: I am sure. I mean, I can't even imagine. I 391 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 1: know that everyone who was there was so deeply traumatized. 392 00:20:57,359 --> 00:20:58,640 Speaker 1: How did you make it through it? 393 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 4: Well, I think that kind of thing. I mean, you're 394 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 4: very much thinking like a journalist. You know, it was 395 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 4: interesting when I was in the gallery. I was sort 396 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 4: of I was filming what was going on below, just 397 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 4: trying to get it, you know, the footage of it. 398 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 4: There were other you know, it was interesting. For the 399 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 4: year anniversary, I did a story where I interviewed a 400 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 4: whole bunch of other people that were in the gallery there, 401 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,920 Speaker 4: and it was really interesting to hear their perspectives, all lawmakers, 402 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 4: a lot of them. Dal Demings was the former Orlando 403 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 4: police chief. 404 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, she's amazing. Yeah, Yeah, she was. 405 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,640 Speaker 4: A great interview. She was a former police chief of Orlando, right, 406 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 4: And Mickey Cheryl was there. She was, you know for 407 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 4: Navy helicopter pilot Jason Crowe, former Army ranger. And the 408 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 4: way they sort of saw the scenario was very different 409 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 4: from me because I was really just like focused on 410 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 4: getting video footage and I'm kind of coolest, right, Like 411 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:45,880 Speaker 4: I'm not I wasn't in in the military. I don't 412 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 4: really I'm not used to situations, you know, where you 413 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:50,359 Speaker 4: have to sort of be thinking about what you're going 414 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,680 Speaker 4: to do next like that, And it was really interesting 415 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 4: to hear sort of their perspective as they kind of 416 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,199 Speaker 4: figured out what was going on. I guess like for 417 00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 4: any reporter. I just sort of reported my way through it, 418 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 4: and it's been, you know, a really interesting story to 419 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,360 Speaker 4: cover over the last few years. And you know it's 420 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,879 Speaker 4: now the fifth anniversary, and it does seem like memories 421 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 4: can be short sometimes, so trying to you know, put 422 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:15,959 Speaker 4: this out there as a collective memory really to the 423 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 4: facts of the day of what happened, sort of a definitive, 424 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 4: nonpartisan version told by people who were actually there and 425 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 4: the perspective including the rioters, including police officers, wow, lawmakers, workers, 426 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 4: other journalists, staff, so you know, really just anyone who 427 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:33,400 Speaker 4: who was there and witnessed it. 428 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 1: That must have been really interesting talking to the writers. 429 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, most of the material from rioters, and the book 430 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 4: is from court because a lot of people testified in 431 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 4: their own defense, so that was really interesting. Under oath, obviously, 432 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 4: I did do some interviews and that was really interesting. 433 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 4: You know, I interviewed a many of Jason Riddle, who 434 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 4: tried to reject his pardon. It was really interesting hearing 435 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 4: his perspective about sort of how he went in. He 436 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 4: kind of thought it as he did. He was it violent, 437 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:03,439 Speaker 4: he thought it was a party, and you know, he 438 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 4: was having a great time and he was drinking. He 439 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 4: found some alcohol in the Senate Parliamentarian's office and he 440 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,400 Speaker 4: came outside. He stole a book. He sold the book 441 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 4: that he stole to somebody, and the person said to him, 442 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 4: did you see they're shooting people that he saw? I 443 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 4: assume he's talking about Ashley Babbitt saw someone taking out 444 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 4: of the Capitol with a bullet inner And he was like, no, 445 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 4: they're not, it's a party in there. And the guy 446 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,199 Speaker 4: was like, no, you know that we saw this, And 447 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 4: he said that changed his life that moment, realizing that 448 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 4: what he you know, that he could get in trouble 449 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 4: for what he was doing, and you know, eventually, you know, 450 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:33,679 Speaker 4: sort of and now he's kind of talking about it. 451 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 4: He just ran at that moment and just ran as 452 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 4: far away as he could, realizing he'd done something wrong. 453 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 4: There were all sorts of different perspectives from the rioters, 454 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 4: and that's something that I find interesting because some people 455 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 4: did go with the intention of violence, you know, brought weapons, 456 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 4: were stockpiling weapons. It had planned it. Others it was 457 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,919 Speaker 4: more spontaneous and they you know, walked in and walked 458 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 4: out or you know, still still an offense, but you know, 459 00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 4: it was just a really wide variety of people. And 460 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 4: I find that really interesting. It is a more nuanced 461 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,160 Speaker 4: situation sometimes than everyone realizes. 462 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,359 Speaker 1: Were you scared for your life? 463 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:09,680 Speaker 4: You know in that moment, I don't know, I think 464 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 4: a little bit like subconsciously. But again, like you know, 465 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:14,680 Speaker 4: I think talking back to people who had like real 466 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 4: law enforcement and military experience, they were they realized what 467 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 4: was happening, which. 468 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: Is scary, right. 469 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, they knew that we were surrounded, they knew we 470 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 4: heard the shot that killed Ashley Babbitt, they knew that 471 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,440 Speaker 4: was a gunshot. They knew where it came from. I'm 472 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 4: not used to those situations, right, So I was like, 473 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,160 Speaker 4: you know, I heard a loud sound and I knew 474 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 4: it could be a gunshot, but I didn't really know. 475 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,160 Speaker 4: So I just, you know, I think I was more 476 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 4: just sort of generally nervous. I don't think I ever 477 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 4: got to the point in my head where I thought 478 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 4: that I might die. That was one of the most 479 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 4: surprising things to me, actually, and reporting this is how 480 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 4: many people less in that situation, but a more so 481 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 4: the police officers. Really did you know, the police officers 482 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 4: who were getting beaten bloody and you know, in horrible situations, 483 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 4: getting bear spray in their face, and also of things 484 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,160 Speaker 4: happened to them, and so many of them did think 485 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,159 Speaker 4: they were going to die in that moment. And that 486 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 4: was something that was really interesting in reading their words 487 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,919 Speaker 4: and using them for the book, was just how many people, 488 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 4: how many of the officers in particular, really thought that 489 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 4: this would be it for them that day. 490 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's scary, It is really scary. How have you 491 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: felt since the coverage of it? How does it feel 492 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 1: in that way? Yeah? 493 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,400 Speaker 4: I mean I think that you know, I work for AP. 494 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 4: We're very straightforward and so you know, we really we 495 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 4: strive to be nonpartisan, just the facts, you know, and 496 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 4: I think that really makes it easy to cover, you know, 497 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 4: is because we're just sort of we all think it's 498 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 4: really important to have the facts out on whatever situation 499 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,439 Speaker 4: that we're covering. And I think this one has been 500 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 4: a little tricky for some people. Certainly there are people 501 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 4: who are trying to change the narrative on this, But 502 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 4: as I've covered it, and as my colleagues have covered it, 503 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,640 Speaker 4: we were there, we know what happened, and just sort 504 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 4: of putting it out there, you know, trying to make 505 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 4: sure that the facts are the facts, and I think 506 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 4: that this you know, collective oral history. You see the 507 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 4: consistency in all of the stories, whether it might be 508 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 4: a Republican or a Democrat or a wrioter or you know, 509 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,199 Speaker 4: there are a set of facts surrounding this situation. It 510 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 4: was a violent attack. I think that that's important to 511 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 4: have out there, the real facts of the day. 512 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: Did it change the way that Congress operates now? 513 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 4: Yes? And no. I mean I think it's underneath the 514 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 4: surface in a lot of ways. But in a lot 515 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 4: of ways, I think people just want to move on. 516 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 4: I think it definitely. I mean a lot of Republicans 517 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,640 Speaker 4: especially want to move on. I think that it made 518 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,199 Speaker 4: things so much more tense. Things were already tense, but 519 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 4: what we saw is that it really just further divided 520 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,399 Speaker 4: people instead of bringing people together. And I think in 521 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 4: some ways some of those tensions can heal, but a 522 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 4: lot of them are still really raw under the surface especially, 523 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 4: And in some ways it didn't change anything, you know, 524 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 4: I mean, they're just going about things the way they 525 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 4: always have in talking to people. Some Republicans are trying to, 526 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 4: you know, downplay it obviously. Others have said, we just 527 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 4: want to move on. We don't want to be thinking 528 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 4: about this all the time. So I think it's still 529 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 4: just like a really raw subject there and something that 530 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 4: you don't actually hear mentioned a lot. I think it 531 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 4: probably has changed the way Congress operates, but in some 532 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 4: ways they're just moving ahead how they always have. 533 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: Are there like nuts and bolts, ways in which it's different, 534 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 1: like magnanimers. So much of like what protects Congress and 535 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,400 Speaker 1: a lot of these government buildings is actually like norms. 536 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, no, there, I mean, so many vulnerabilities were exposed 537 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 4: on this day. You know, it's an old building. I 538 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 4: don't think anyone ever anticipated you know, you could argue 539 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 4: whether they should have, but I mean, I don't think 540 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 4: anyone ever anticipated that something like this so extreme would happen. 541 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,400 Speaker 4: But yes they have. There's been a lot of security 542 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,159 Speaker 4: money to harden windows and doors. There's a lot of 543 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,160 Speaker 4: increased security just in the terms of the infrastructure. And 544 00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 4: so for sure, the magnetometers, how are you manet? Yeah, 545 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 4: they did put that out. Pelosi did that right afterward. 546 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 4: Republicans really didn't like that, and they took them away, 547 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 4: you know, as soon as they took power. But that 548 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 4: was only a small detail, I mean in general and 549 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 4: not really has more to do with like if a 550 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 4: lawmaker is going to bring a gun onto the floor, 551 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 4: which a really specific situation. But in general, yes, they've 552 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 4: hardened everything. And they also did change the law too. 553 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:27,400 Speaker 4: They amended the Electoral Count Act afterward, which is really 554 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 4: the only kind of bipartisan response that there's been. But so, 555 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 4: you know, clarifying that the vice president's role is ceremonial. 556 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 4: It was already, but they certainly, you know, they put 557 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 4: that again into law just to clarify it. And now 558 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 4: used to be that one member of the House and 559 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 4: one member of the Senate could object to go into 560 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 4: a debate on a state's electoral vote, and now it's 561 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 4: a fifth of the House and a fifth of the Senate. 562 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 4: So that is another way that, you know, another nuts 563 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 4: and bolts thing that has changed. 564 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 1: So interesting, So there's a large percentage of the people 565 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 1: involved in this who really want it to go away. 566 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 1: I mean, you cover Congress, like, do you still remember it? 567 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: Do you still think about it? Or now? Yeah? 568 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 4: I do. I mean I think partially because I was 569 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 4: I was doing this book, so I think I probably 570 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 4: have it in my head more than your average person 571 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 4: would even your average person in the Capitol. But sure, 572 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 4: I do think it is still extraordinary to me. A 573 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 4: lot of the things that happened. I work in the Capitol. 574 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 4: I've worked there for twenty years. I have a desk 575 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 4: in the Capitol. I you know, walking by the windows 576 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 4: where they first broke in. You know, it's hard to 577 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 4: walk by there and not just like flashed through my brain. Right. 578 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 4: I think that's probably true for a lot of people. 579 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 4: But I think for some people, they probably don't think 580 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 4: about it very often. So it's something that, as they said, 581 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 4: kind of under the surface there. 582 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: It just was such a seismic moment in American democracy. 583 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: I'm curious, like when you talk to the Capitol police, 584 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: what do you get from them when you talk to 585 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: them about it? 586 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 4: The current police, they're not really like authorized to talk a. 587 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: Whole lot about it, Okay, But so you have like 588 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: people like Michael Fanone, right, yeah. 589 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 4: Former, he's MPD. Yeah. And so the book I did 590 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 4: interview some formers, you know, I interviewed some current people 591 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 4: who then it didn't work out I couldn't use the 592 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 4: interviewed do or whatever. So they're really not talking about 593 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 4: it a lot publicly, but they have in court, which 594 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 4: is really helpful for the book. Is a lot of 595 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 4: police officers gave very detailed testimony in court and a 596 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 4: lot of the rioters trials, So that's been really really 597 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 4: interesting because a lot of that stuff is just sort 598 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 4: of buried in court files. I mean, we had so 599 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 4: many amazing reporters that covered all of those trials. But 600 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 4: you know, every story can't have the full testimony of 601 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 4: someone who testified, so a lot of police officers, secret service, 602 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 4: there's so many different law enforcement told their stories in 603 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 4: court because that was an important part of the narrative 604 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 4: in those trials. So we do have a lot of 605 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 4: record of some of the most violent attacks on police officers. 606 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 4: And there's people who've left the force who are talking 607 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 4: to So I talked to some retired Capitol police and 608 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 4: MPD are a little more able to talk, and I 609 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 4: did interview police officers about their experiences as well, and 610 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 4: that has been really tough on them. I think, you know, 611 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 4: you're talking about memory and people who are still having 612 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 4: a hard time with it. There definitely are a lot 613 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 4: of police officers who are really you know, some of 614 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 4: them never went back to work, so you know, some 615 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 4: of them were really injured. And one of the police 616 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 4: officers I interviewed said, and this is in the book, 617 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:20,959 Speaker 4: you know, they say there were like one hundred and 618 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 4: forty police officers who were injured, and he said, the 619 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 4: number is probably much higher than that, but a lot 620 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 4: of people just didn't complain and they just went back 621 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 4: to work the next day. But I do think that 622 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 4: the mental impact was strong on a lot of these 623 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 4: police officers. 624 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 1: There were people killed themselves too. 625 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 4: That's right. Yeah, there were two police officers who died 626 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 4: by suicide in the days immediately afterward. One how we 627 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 4: leave and go to the capitol police officer and Jeffery 628 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 4: Smith was an MPD officer, And then there were two officers. 629 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 4: The MPD said later and this summer that two other 630 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 4: officers who were there had died by suicide. And I 631 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 4: don't know that we know all the details of that, 632 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 4: but it obviously did have a toll on people who 633 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 4: really never ever were trained to be in the middle 634 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 4: of what they described as a medieval battle, you know, 635 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 4: and it was a hand to hand combat in front 636 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 4: of the US capital, and it's just not something that 637 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 4: a lot of these officers just would they just they 638 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 4: weren't trained for it. They weren't they would have never 639 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 4: anticipated it. It just was so extraordinary, and a lot 640 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 4: of them really also felt the importance of what they 641 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 4: were doing. You know. That's one of the officers says, 642 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 4: I'm an used in the book. We knew what we 643 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 4: were doing, you know, we understood the stakes. Here. One 644 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 4: woman who was you know, firing off like pepper balls 645 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 4: trying to deter the rioters that were coming toward the 646 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 4: building before they broke in. She was saying, they were 647 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 4: getting closer and closer to the members of Congress, like 648 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 4: they knew exactly, you know, the importance of what they 649 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 4: were doing that day, and it was it was really 650 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 4: hard on a lot of them. Afterward. 651 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: Can you tell us what struck you, what surprised you. 652 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, no, I do think sort of as I said before, 653 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 4: the impacts on the officers and what they were thinking 654 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 4: as it was going. I found that like really moving 655 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 4: and interesting. As they were thinking about their families, they 656 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 4: were trying to pick themselves up off the grounds to 657 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 4: make sure that they you know, they were getting help 658 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 4: from their fellow officers, and it was just extraordinary how 659 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 4: many of them in their testimony or in their interviews, 660 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 4: said I thought this was going to be it for 661 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 4: me today and that day. And yeah, I mean I didn't. 662 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 4: I didn't realize that before I started reporting this book. 663 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 1: So you were sort of the best off in a 664 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: strange way. Let me make this case to you because 665 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 1: you you didn't understand how much peril you were in. 666 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: That's a question. 667 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 4: I agree. No, I think I've actually said that exact 668 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 4: thing to people. Yeah, because I think I was just 669 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 4: kind of naive, right, I didn't really totally understand. I 670 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 4: knew it was bad. I knew it wasn't a good thing. 671 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 4: My husband was also there. He's also a reporter, and 672 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 4: he was in a different location, and at some point 673 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 4: he called me, and I think I you know, I 674 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 4: can't remember what exactly we said, but I was like 675 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 4: sort of crouching down in the gallery, and you know, 676 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 4: I remember I think I told him I was scared. 677 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 4: You know, I think I was scared, but I don't 678 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 4: think I just had the like training and background to 679 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 4: be like this is this is how this situation could 680 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 4: play out? 681 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:08,320 Speaker 1: Right, And Mikey did. 682 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, right exactly. And one thing that she says that 683 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 4: as an interview I did with her, you know, four 684 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 4: years ago. I think where she said it was so 685 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 4: frustrating because she was trained and training, you know, where 686 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 4: everything is, you play out these scenarios, and she said, 687 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 4: we didn't even know there were gas masks under the seats, 688 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 4: you know, there was so much we didn't know. And 689 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 4: just to be so unprepared and to be caught and 690 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,719 Speaker 4: prepared like that. It was hard for people who were 691 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,879 Speaker 4: so used to being prepared and you know, had spent 692 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 4: much of their lives preparing for things. 693 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 1: But not that I'm really glad you wrote this book. 694 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,600 Speaker 1: It's the kind of thing that needs to exist in 695 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 1: the historical record of that day. And if you hadn't 696 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 1: written it, you know, maybe no one else would. 697 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:51,240 Speaker 4: I hope that people are able to read other people's 698 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,880 Speaker 4: stories and sort of understand, you know, come to their 699 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 4: own conclusions about what happened, but just you know, see 700 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:02,840 Speaker 4: the details of the viole and you know exactly what happened. 701 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, And if you don't write that, you know, if 702 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,719 Speaker 1: it doesn't get into the historical record, it never will. 703 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 1: So Mary Claire, thank you, thank you for. 704 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:12,759 Speaker 4: Joining us, Thank you so much for having me. 705 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 706 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best 707 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,839 Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If 708 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,920 Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend 709 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.