Speaker 1: People get fired up. You know, people are very you know, passionate.
Speaker 1: When it comes to race, it matters race. So of
Speaker 1: course if you see like people being denied access to buses,
Speaker 1: you're like, you know, your first instant is like, what
Speaker 1: the heck is going on? There are no girls on
Speaker 1: the Internet. As a production of I Heart Radio and
Speaker 1: Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget Todd and this is there are
Speaker 1: no girls on the Internet. At least sixties hundred thousand
Speaker 1: people have fled Ukraine in the days following Russia's invasion,
Speaker 1: according to The New York Times. Some of these include students,
Speaker 1: are migrant workers from Africa, Asia or other regions. People
Speaker 1: of color in Ukraine reported racist mistreatment as they tried
Speaker 1: to leave the country. The United Nations has acknowledged that
Speaker 1: non white refugees have faced racism while attempting to leave
Speaker 1: the country. Videos flooded social media of people of color
Speaker 1: being taken off buses, being shoved the back of lines
Speaker 1: in favor of white Ukrainians, and being harassed by extremists
Speaker 1: and in this moment a very real crisis and very
Speaker 1: real fear. Bad actors are also exploiting their stories and
Speaker 1: social media platforms to further cause chaos, confusion, and distrust.
Speaker 1: It is a lot to unbraid. So I turned to
Speaker 1: Christopher Boozy, CEO of BT Sentinel, a tool that helps
Speaker 1: determine real people on Twitter from inauthentic accounts. So, you know,
Speaker 1: I was reading a little bit about your background, about
Speaker 1: how you initially fell in love with technology and computers.
Speaker 1: Take me back, how did you How did you first
Speaker 1: get involved with this kind of stuff. Oh it's simple.
Speaker 1: My mother. Um, she she used to work for telephone company. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, it's a rising now, but back then it
Speaker 1: was I think nine Next or New York Tells, something
Speaker 1: like that. And she worked with computers, so she knew
Speaker 1: where computers were going before a lot of people, especially
Speaker 1: in our community, UM, knew where computers were going. Um.
Speaker 1: So for Christmas, she purchased me in a Mattel Aquarious computer.
Speaker 1: You know, it was considered kind of like a toy,
Speaker 1: but it was it was a computer, you know. Um,
Speaker 1: it was basic and actually the language basic. And Um,
Speaker 1: this this journey that I've been on, I tell people
Speaker 1: all the time, it's really easy to say it started
Speaker 1: with my mom. So Christopher's work determining bats from authentic
Speaker 1: real accounts really came into sharper focus around the presidential election.
Speaker 1: Presidential election in the United States was a really weird
Speaker 1: time online. Bad actors use social media to create chaos
Speaker 1: and confusion, and a Senate inquiry found that no group
Speaker 1: was targeted for this kind of disinformation more than black folks.
Speaker 1: Bad actors what you social media accounts pretending often times
Speaker 1: pretty badly to be black. If you listen to our
Speaker 1: episode last season most Saffiica Hudson, you know exactly what
Speaker 1: I'm talking about. It just created a lot of distrust
Speaker 1: and confusion, which ultimately was the entire point. This is
Speaker 1: around the time when Christopher really started to see the
Speaker 1: impact that these kinds of disinformation tactics had on our
Speaker 1: ability to meaningfully connect online, especially for black folks. After
Speaker 1: the election, we realized like, hey, there were these fake accounts,
Speaker 1: uh that were influencing conversations that you know, we're also
Speaker 1: being used to target people of color to try to
Speaker 1: swathe them away from Hillary Clayton and the Democrats. Um yeah,
Speaker 1: I realized like, hey, there's a huge problem here. And
Speaker 1: then we started having people who were calling each other
Speaker 1: bots like if they didn't agree with each other. So
Speaker 1: you know, if you came to my you know, my
Speaker 1: Twitter feed and you're like, you know, hey something whatever,
Speaker 1: and then I'm just like, I don't agree with you.
Speaker 1: Then someone jumps in, you know that this person is
Speaker 1: a bot or that person is a bot, and I
Speaker 1: just thought it wasn't productive and it was counter I
Speaker 1: mean it just for what social media is and what
Speaker 1: we are supposed to use it for. I just thought
Speaker 1: by everyone calling each other about because we did not agree,
Speaker 1: that that just was adding to the problem. So, you know,
Speaker 1: I set out to try to create a platform to
Speaker 1: allow people to be able to identify the real accounts
Speaker 1: from the fake accounts, you know, because I really don't
Speaker 1: even though the name of the company is bought Sineal,
Speaker 1: I don't like using the term bot that much because
Speaker 1: it has morphed over time. Um And a lot of
Speaker 1: the accounts now that we see are not really bots
Speaker 1: per se. They are more human controlled accounts. Um. So
Speaker 1: we like to say in authentic accounts. So how do
Speaker 1: you actually use machine learning to distinguish an authentic accounts
Speaker 1: from authentic accounts? Back in twenty seventeen, started work being
Speaker 1: on the platform, really started doing the research, and you know,
Speaker 1: in the beginning hit a roadblock because it's like, okay,
Speaker 1: you know when you when you create these models, these
Speaker 1: machine learning models, you have to train it and you
Speaker 1: have to give an examples of quote unquote what's a
Speaker 1: good account versus a bad account. So you know, my
Speaker 1: opinion of a good account may be different from your
Speaker 1: your opinion, and you know, my opinion of a bad
Speaker 1: account might be different from yours and so forth. So
Speaker 1: what I consider good may not be with other people
Speaker 1: consider good or bad. Uh So, what I ended up
Speaker 1: doing was using Twitter's UM terms of service there there
Speaker 1: there you know, rules, and that was the guide like
Speaker 1: whatever they considered what's breaking the rules and you know whatever,
Speaker 1: that's what I would use as the you know, the
Speaker 1: roadmap or the map whatever UM. So then started looking
Speaker 1: for accounts that were considered good and consider bad and
Speaker 1: trained the model and and did this over time and
Speaker 1: at the same time building out the platform, and then
Speaker 1: in launched it UM And I mean, I don't want
Speaker 1: to say it was an overnight success, but people, you know,
Speaker 1: pretty much flocked to it because it was something that
Speaker 1: people were really dying for, because they really wanted to
Speaker 1: know who they were interacting with. So there were already
Speaker 1: a few tools out there to determine if an account
Speaker 1: online as a BOT or not, but Christopher wanted to
Speaker 1: go further. There were a couple of other, um, you know,
Speaker 1: platforms or similar products out there there, but you know,
Speaker 1: the way that they were designed, they were designed to
Speaker 1: pretty much say like bot or not, you know, kind
Speaker 1: of like old days hot or not, bot or not. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, And I thought that was bad because it's
Speaker 1: it's it's not black and white, it really isn't. And
Speaker 1: so my system was more like a credit you know,
Speaker 1: score system, where you have accounts that are rated normal,
Speaker 1: satisfied three, disruptive, and problematic, obviously problematic being the worst,
Speaker 1: you know, obviously like the lease worst or whatever. And
Speaker 1: so people understood that right away. So they were able
Speaker 1: to look at those reports that are generating when you
Speaker 1: analyze an account and they're like, okay, I get this,
Speaker 1: understand it. So it's not just you know, bot or not.
Speaker 1: You know, we have a range of different scores. I
Speaker 1: have been called a bot before if I've said something
Speaker 1: that people a lot of people didn't agree with. Um
Speaker 1: it's one of the reasons I have my camera on
Speaker 1: for this interview. I was like, I just want to
Speaker 1: make sure that he knows that he's talking to it
Speaker 1: an actual black human who exists in the world. Do
Speaker 1: you just see somebody on Twitter who is just not
Speaker 1: using the language correctly? Like obviously at your Twitter feed
Speaker 1: today and someone said someone had a tweet that said,
Speaker 1: any time a black goes against what they're supposed to
Speaker 1: be doing or doesn't doesn't support the Democrats, y'all say
Speaker 1: it's a bot. And I'm thinking, I don't know any
Speaker 1: other black people who would refer to another black person
Speaker 1: as a black That doesn't sound right to me. And
Speaker 1: so it's interesting how before we just had these sort
Speaker 1: of cultural cues or language cues to help us understand
Speaker 1: if this person is actually, you know, the black human
Speaker 1: that they're purport purporting to be, And now we have
Speaker 1: this tool that can really put a little bit of
Speaker 1: of of data behind it. This is actually a persistent
Speaker 1: problem on social media people pretending to be someone they're not.
Speaker 1: Online journalist Wanna Thompson popularized the term black fishing, when
Speaker 1: someone who isn't really black pretends to be black on
Speaker 1: social media. And it doesn't just stop at race. It
Speaker 1: can be all kinds of things. For instance, people pretending
Speaker 1: to be medical professionals or doctors to spread vaccine misinformation.
Speaker 1: And this person that you're talking about, we called it
Speaker 1: black fishing, when someone pretends to be black, creates an account,
Speaker 1: uses a black photo, and they try to persuade other people,
Speaker 1: you know, in the community to do things by saying
Speaker 1: certain things. So they would say, for example, I don't
Speaker 1: like Joe Biden. You know, he's not he hasn't done
Speaker 1: anything for the black community. You know, me being a black,
Speaker 1: I don't find him to you know, have my values
Speaker 1: or whatever. Um. So anyone reading that will say, wait,
Speaker 1: you know, is that a typeo you know? Or did
Speaker 1: this person actually get it raw? Um? And that applies
Speaker 1: to a lot of different things. That that applies to
Speaker 1: people who are pretending to be doctors who are telling
Speaker 1: people not to take the vaccine, and another doctor reading
Speaker 1: some of what they're tweeting would say, this makes absolutely
Speaker 1: no sense. So so maybe to you and I, uh,
Speaker 1: not being doctors, who may not spot that right away,
Speaker 1: but a professional you know that does this for a living,
Speaker 1: would say, hey, what you said just makes absolutely no sense.
Speaker 1: There's no way you're a doctor. So you know, so
Speaker 1: the same applies to like you said, when you know,
Speaker 1: unfortunately someone is trying to pretend like they're black, Black
Speaker 1: fools can usually spot that right away. Yeah, and I
Speaker 1: also think I completely agree, And I think you gave
Speaker 1: people a way to have just better conversations on social
Speaker 1: media because we probably all had that experience of your
Speaker 1: talking to somebody on Twitter and eventually you're like, this
Speaker 1: person is not worth my time, This person is not
Speaker 1: worth having a conversation with. This person is not interested
Speaker 1: in having a thoughtful conversation. And I think you're to
Speaker 1: you what you've done has given people a better framework
Speaker 1: for when it's like this person is not worth engaging.
Speaker 1: This person is misrepresenting themselves. This person is misrepresenting the
Speaker 1: situation that they're that they're claiming to be an expert
Speaker 1: on or claiming to have experience with. You know, not
Speaker 1: every not every person on social media is worth your
Speaker 1: time or like the person that you should be trying
Speaker 1: to have a real conversation with. Ultimately, Christopher wants to
Speaker 1: help create better social media experiences, one where people, especially
Speaker 1: women of color, who we know are so often targeted,
Speaker 1: don't have to be subjected to constant harassment just to
Speaker 1: show up online. But what's happened on Twitter. There's also
Speaker 1: the targeted harassment side of things, where a lot of
Speaker 1: these in authentic accounts, UM, they purposely go after people
Speaker 1: that are either you know, supporting an individual or you know,
Speaker 1: they're talking about climate change or you know, whatever the
Speaker 1: issue may be. And we see that a lot with women,
Speaker 1: especially women of color. UM. You know, we're doing a
Speaker 1: study now, research now on Kamala Harris. UM. We previously
Speaker 1: did something on Megan Markle, and women of color are
Speaker 1: seemed to be like the prime target for a lot
Speaker 1: of these accounts. So we started building out too to
Speaker 1: help with that. You know, we have an order blocker
Speaker 1: that blocks accounts not only based on the Bosom rating,
Speaker 1: but also it could be tailored to the individual. Let's
Speaker 1: just say there's an emoji that a lot of these
Speaker 1: accounts are using. I can't think of something right this second,
Speaker 1: but uh, if if you want, you can block accounts
Speaker 1: that are using that specific emoji or even specific keywords
Speaker 1: if you wanted to. UM, you can block accounts that
Speaker 1: are just recently created because, as you know, a lot
Speaker 1: of times when they're doing the swarming when they're attacking,
Speaker 1: they will just go and create a bunch of accounts
Speaker 1: like right away and then spam you and attack you
Speaker 1: with that. So you can actually auto block accounts that
Speaker 1: were just recently created or don't have a lot of
Speaker 1: followers or not, you know whatever. I mean, it can
Speaker 1: be literally tailored to your taste. Um, so we thought
Speaker 1: that was a lot better than just people using generic
Speaker 1: blocklists or you know, using other products that just block
Speaker 1: based on a list. You know you're blocking it, so
Speaker 1: I should you know, that doesn't really work. I mean,
Speaker 1: we are trying to make the platform form a place
Speaker 1: where people can feel safe, you know, that they can
Speaker 1: use our tools to I don't know, have a better
Speaker 1: experience on Twitter and then hopefully on other platforms as
Speaker 1: following the future. Let's a quick break ut her back.
Speaker 1: I was baking though, Fisher literally looked me my eye
Speaker 1: and said, in his language only Ukrainians, that's all that
Speaker 1: if you're black, you should walk. That's Jessica Arecpo, a
Speaker 1: Nigerian medical student and one of the estimated sixteen thousand
Speaker 1: African students living in Ukraine. Around twenty Indian students also
Speaker 1: live in the country. As the invasion of Ukraine intensified
Speaker 1: we solve reports of non white people in Ukraine struggling
Speaker 1: to get out of the country. The hashtag Africans in
Speaker 1: Ukraine was used to amplify stories of Africans being pulled
Speaker 1: off trains and busses not being allowed to flee in
Speaker 1: favor of white Ukrainians by Ukrainian authorities. Doctor Imbagwu, a
Speaker 1: twenty four year old doctor from Nigeria who lived in
Speaker 1: western Ukraine, told The New York Times the Ukrainian border
Speaker 1: guards were not letting us through. They were beating people
Speaker 1: up with sticks and tearing off their jackets. They would
Speaker 1: slap them, they would beat them, they would push them
Speaker 1: to the end of the queue. It was awful. So
Speaker 1: I need to make this really clear. It is absolutely
Speaker 1: true that the people of color in Ukraine are being
Speaker 1: mistreated during an active invasion because of racism, and it's disgusting.
Speaker 1: The High Commissioner for Refugees from the United Nations confirmed
Speaker 1: this in a statement. And really, you don't even need
Speaker 1: to look to stories from folks on the ground to
Speaker 1: see the way that racism against non white people in
Speaker 1: Ukraine is playing out. This isn't a place with all
Speaker 1: due respect, you know, like at Rock or Afghanistan, it
Speaker 1: has seen conflict raging for decades. This is a relatively
Speaker 1: civiliz relatively European I have to choose those words carefully,
Speaker 1: to city where you wouldn't expect that or hope that
Speaker 1: it's going to happen. But this clear racism also reveals
Speaker 1: a really important, yet difficult to contend with reality about
Speaker 1: how disinformation works, That it's often rooted in actual truth,
Speaker 1: and bad actors inflame legitimate tensions during already tense moments
Speaker 1: like this to create chaos and confusion at a climate
Speaker 1: where nobody knows what to believe. So, while it is
Speaker 1: absolutely true that non white refugees in Ukraine are facing
Speaker 1: disgusting racism as they try to flee, it's also true
Speaker 1: that inauthentic accounts and bad actors are cruelly using their
Speaker 1: stories to inflame racial tensions and deepen existing divisions. And
Speaker 1: what's even more disgusting is that we have a digital
Speaker 1: media landscape that makes it really easy for them to
Speaker 1: do this. So what are you seeing in terms of
Speaker 1: a conversation online with regard to black people in Ukraine. First,
Speaker 1: I would like to say that yes, there were of
Speaker 1: you know, of color, not just black people, know they
Speaker 1: were there were you know, Indian people, Brazilians as well
Speaker 1: who did Um, who did face some discrimination, I guess
Speaker 1: is how you would say it, because they were not
Speaker 1: allowed to board busses. Now, the the pushback to that was, well,
Speaker 1: you know where they were going, Um, they were not
Speaker 1: allowed to enter that they had to go into like
Speaker 1: another country or something like that. UM. So like if
Speaker 1: they were going trying to go into Poland, for example,
Speaker 1: there were black folks who were denied access. So that's true.
Speaker 1: And there were people that were not allowed on buses
Speaker 1: or pulled off buses and stuff like that. UM. Now
Speaker 1: you have accounts that are popping up all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: newly created accounts claiming to be black that were saying
Speaker 1: things that we could not verify. You know that videos
Speaker 1: that were not even from Ukraine that people started you know,
Speaker 1: sharing that stuff. And we can clearly see that a
Speaker 1: lot of these accounts were fake, they were inauthentic, you know,
Speaker 1: using our technology, UM looking at you know what exactly
Speaker 1: these accounts are saying. Because some of these accounts were
Speaker 1: just spamming the same thing over and over and over.
Speaker 1: And over again, and that's a clear sign of platform manipulation.
Speaker 1: It's so awful for so many reasons, but a big
Speaker 1: one is that it creates a climate where the actual
Speaker 1: people of color fleeing for their lives have to work
Speaker 1: that much harder to amplify their stories in a media
Speaker 1: landscape awash with confusion and in authentic discourse. Students sharing
Speaker 1: videos about their experiences in Ukraine on social media began
Speaker 1: timestamping their videos and adding exact location codes to demonstrate
Speaker 1: that they were actually real and authentic, and the fact
Speaker 1: that they would even need to do this just to
Speaker 1: be heard demonstrates how badly tech platforms have failed to
Speaker 1: create a landscape that people can meaningfully turn to for
Speaker 1: sharing and receiving information during a time of real crisis,
Speaker 1: because they have to compete with inauthentic accounts and bad
Speaker 1: actors who are using their very real trauma to manipulate people.
Speaker 1: It's a complex situation. And then pointing it out, Christopher
Speaker 1: face criticism that he was invalidating the reality of racism
Speaker 1: actually fased by non white people in Ukraine. But even
Speaker 1: that reveals a tough point about combating disinformation. Bad actors
Speaker 1: will seiz on, moments of crisis, intention to inflame legitimate
Speaker 1: pressure points that already exist in our communities, the kinds
Speaker 1: of sensitive or highly charged topics that can be difficult
Speaker 1: to discuss. So you know, it's our job to report
Speaker 1: the truth, you know, published the truth, whether it defends
Speaker 1: someone or not. And that's what we did. And of
Speaker 1: course there were people that were just like, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: you're perpetrating this thing. Is if it's just propaganda, you know,
Speaker 1: our people are being left to die, And you're like, no,
Speaker 1: that's not what we're doing at all. We're not saying
Speaker 1: that this is not actually happening on the ground. But
Speaker 1: when you have accounts that are trying to sow division,
Speaker 1: who start trying to sow discord, excuse me, who are
Speaker 1: trying to divide people, who are trying to make you know,
Speaker 1: people of color not supportive of a country because of
Speaker 1: some incidents that happened. Um, I mean, look, let's let's
Speaker 1: let's be honestly, let's be real. There's racism everywhere. There's
Speaker 1: racism here in the United States. You know. Unfortunately, I
Speaker 1: can walk down the street and get stopped by a
Speaker 1: car and got bid. I can get shot just because
Speaker 1: of the color of my skin. But going back to
Speaker 1: the actual fake accounts, they were clearly trying to manipulate
Speaker 1: and we see this all the time unfortunately on social media,
Speaker 1: black folks or targeted a lot um because you know,
Speaker 1: whether it's Black Lives Matter, whether it's elections, you know,
Speaker 1: they feel as if we're easily manipulated because you know,
Speaker 1: matters of race. People get fired up. You know, people
Speaker 1: are very you know, passionate when it comes to race.
Speaker 1: It matters of race. So of course if you see
Speaker 1: like people being denied access to buses, you're like, you know,
Speaker 1: your first instinct is like, what the heck is going on?
Speaker 1: Like I'm supporting this country and now you're treating my
Speaker 1: people like like garbage, like what's happening? And then it
Speaker 1: goes viral And that's what state actors want. They want
Speaker 1: that they want to muddy up the waters. You know,
Speaker 1: they want you to not support this country, not support Ukraine,
Speaker 1: so they will take a little snippet of truth and
Speaker 1: make it seem like a whole entire country is filled
Speaker 1: with Nazis and people who hate black folks, and that's
Speaker 1: just not true. Are their races in Ukraine of course
Speaker 1: there there are. I mean, I'm they're like I said,
Speaker 1: I'm from the United States. They're they're a bunch of
Speaker 1: races here, and they're a bunch of races in the
Speaker 1: UK and there are a bunch of racists everywhere. But
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that the whole entire country is racist.
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean that because these people were not allowed
Speaker 1: on the you know, the buses are not allowed entry
Speaker 1: into a country, that that was the policy of the
Speaker 1: actual country itself. Um, And that's what we were just
Speaker 1: trying to, uh, you know, to to to convey to
Speaker 1: people that, hey, look, be really careful about what you're sharing.
Speaker 1: You can be upset about what's happening in Ukraine, you
Speaker 1: could be upset about people not being acts allowed access
Speaker 1: to buses and stuff like that, but you can also
Speaker 1: be vigilant and not help, you know, escalate this situation
Speaker 1: on social media. Yeah, and I think that that really
Speaker 1: exposes a truth about disinformation and bad actors that I
Speaker 1: say a lot, but this was a time where I
Speaker 1: really felt it. You know, bad actors they exploit our
Speaker 1: legitimate tensions and traumas and triggers to manipulate us. And
Speaker 1: I know that when I saw these videos of black
Speaker 1: folks and other folks of color, you know, not being
Speaker 1: let on busses and all of this chaos, it triggered
Speaker 1: something in me like that is that is a tension
Speaker 1: point within me personally. Disinformation tends to be rooted in
Speaker 1: some kind of legitimate truth, right, and that bad actors
Speaker 1: they exploit that, those tensions, those pressure points, They exploit
Speaker 1: that within people to manipulate us. And I definitely felt it.
Speaker 1: I had to stop myself from you know, quickly retweeting
Speaker 1: and and amplifying videos just because they had caused a
Speaker 1: kind of emotional response from me. And I think that's
Speaker 1: something that we need to really be super clear on
Speaker 1: that bad actors they're very savvy. They know how to
Speaker 1: manipulate issues that get people fired up, and they they
Speaker 1: definitely found my issue, and you know, I think that
Speaker 1: being really aware of that is key, and then also
Speaker 1: really knowing the historical precedent, because you're absolutely right. I
Speaker 1: think that a lot of bad actors and people who
Speaker 1: are pushing disinformation just see black the black community in
Speaker 1: the United States as easy fodder for manipulation. You know,
Speaker 1: we know that in the election, there was no group
Speaker 1: targeted for Russian interference on social media to medal in
Speaker 1: the election more than black folks in the United States.
Speaker 1: We know that a Senate inquiry confirmed that, and so
Speaker 1: we've got to keep in mind there is a historical
Speaker 1: precedent for you know, people seeing us as easy targets
Speaker 1: for manipulation along the basis of race, and that that
Speaker 1: bad actors are going to exploit things that are legitimate concerns,
Speaker 1: like there are is legitimate anti blackness and racism happening
Speaker 1: in Ukraine. I am sure of it. However, it's not
Speaker 1: negating that to also keep in mind, and bad actors
Speaker 1: are going to exploit that truth to try to manipulate us. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: I mean, you're preaching to the choir here, um. And
Speaker 1: that's what we try to We try to educate not
Speaker 1: only know the black community, but we also try to educate,
Speaker 1: you know, the white community as well, to let them
Speaker 1: understand what's happening. Because still people don't realize even I
Speaker 1: mean it's been several years now, don't realize just how
Speaker 1: much platform manipulation is happening. They don't realize how much
Speaker 1: targeted harassment is happening. Um. So that's why I try
Speaker 1: to use my Twitter account as a teaching tool. UM.
Speaker 1: And you know, whether it's you know, a celebrity that's
Speaker 1: being attacked or an organization that's being attacked, you know,
Speaker 1: I try to kind of rip the scab off and
Speaker 1: and and and let people see because sometimes, you know,
Speaker 1: I would have people ask like why are you amplifying this?
Speaker 1: You know, and it's like the only way we're gonna
Speaker 1: educate people, and and and the only way we're gonna
Speaker 1: fix this is by educating people is showing them and
Speaker 1: giving them a window into what's happening. Because a lot
Speaker 1: of a lot of the researchers UM in my field
Speaker 1: that do this, like a lot of times if they
Speaker 1: publish a report, they don't even know publish the list
Speaker 1: of accounts. We don't do that. We publish everything because
Speaker 1: we want people to understand what's happening. So whether you know,
Speaker 1: we are showing you know, pages of tweets, you know,
Speaker 1: the accounts themselves. UM, we want people to be educated.
Speaker 1: And you know, I'm asked all the time like how
Speaker 1: are we going to fix this problem? And I'm like,
Speaker 1: critical thinking is key here, UM, rethinking how we teach
Speaker 1: our kids about you know, social media and and and
Speaker 1: looking for you know, like, for example, if someone posts
Speaker 1: something um and you're not you're not sure it's it's legitimate,
Speaker 1: teaching our kids to research and find out if that's
Speaker 1: you know, legitimate, taking just five minutes and trying to
Speaker 1: find you know, other sources for this particular story. And
Speaker 1: and I'm I'm gonna tell you right now, I have
Speaker 1: seen journalists. These are professionals who retweet stories that are
Speaker 1: completely fake. And I still, you know, it happened a
Speaker 1: lot in and it's still happening in. Yeah. I mean
Speaker 1: I have been guilty of it. I have to admit,
Speaker 1: and and and I've been guilty of it before I
Speaker 1: knew a lot about how this stuff works. Now, when
Speaker 1: I see a story, I kind of have my bullshit
Speaker 1: detect her up. There are a couple of things where
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, I don't know, a story that just
Speaker 1: seems a little like a little too I kind of
Speaker 1: put this. When I see a story that seems taylor
Speaker 1: made for someone like me to share it, it almost
Speaker 1: seems like it was crafted specifically for virality, my bullshit
Speaker 1: detector goes up. Or I'm like, oh, this is just
Speaker 1: a little too convenient that everything that that would prompt
Speaker 1: someone like me to share is there. And so I
Speaker 1: have gotten a lot smarter about that kind of thing now.
Speaker 1: But a few years ago, I don't think we were
Speaker 1: having conversations about, like, it's good to check you know,
Speaker 1: your sources, check your sources. It's good to like verify
Speaker 1: if something seems a little fishy to you, maybe google it.
Speaker 1: You know, I don't think we were having conversations about
Speaker 1: the importance of that kind of literacy online even just
Speaker 1: a few years ago. We were not. We were and
Speaker 1: and and it's good to see that we are having
Speaker 1: those conversations. Um. You know, I look, one company can't
Speaker 1: do it all, you know, I would love to see
Speaker 1: more companies come into this space and be public about it,
Speaker 1: because there are there are some companies that work for
Speaker 1: like campaigns, UM and they do things behind the scenes,
Speaker 1: and that's not helping. It really isn't. Because yes, you know,
Speaker 1: it's good to like, if there's a campaign and there's
Speaker 1: someone putting out disinformation, someone is helping to mitigate that disinformation.
Speaker 1: But we need we need more people doing this publicly.
Speaker 1: You know, we need workshops, We need people to understand,
Speaker 1: like you said like, hey, check other sources. Um, we
Speaker 1: wasn't have that conversation a few years ago. Hey, you know,
Speaker 1: look at who you're engaging with, Look at who you're amplifying.
Speaker 1: Is this person a state actor? Because there are there
Speaker 1: are accounts that you know, fly under the wire for months,
Speaker 1: sometimes years that are you know, they are fake and
Speaker 1: they are state sponsored accounts, and they're just helping to
Speaker 1: you know, whatever it may be, you know, whether it's
Speaker 1: trying to help Republicans or trying to you know, pretend
Speaker 1: like they are Democrats in the beginning and then kind
Speaker 1: of switch up and say, oh, you know, I'm no
Speaker 1: longer supporting the Democrats because of X, Y and c um.
Speaker 1: You know, we see that a lot. So, you know,
Speaker 1: I just think, I just think that as a society,
Speaker 1: we need to start having these conversations more. After a break,
Speaker 1: let's get right back into it. You really reveal something
Speaker 1: about why I get so fired up about things like
Speaker 1: in authentic accounts and disinformation is because we're not really
Speaker 1: able to have we're not really able to view social
Speaker 1: media to have the authentic, thoughtful, accurate, substitutive conversations that
Speaker 1: we need to be happy and so I'm a black person.
Speaker 1: I care deeply about the treatment of black folks, folks
Speaker 1: of color, marginalized people, both here in the United States
Speaker 1: and around the globe. That is something that I care
Speaker 1: deep like my my entire life is about that. And
Speaker 1: I am not able right now to have a conversation
Speaker 1: on our largest social media platforms about the status of
Speaker 1: the folks that I care about my own community around
Speaker 1: the globe because of bad actors and disinformation. It's like,
Speaker 1: and so I think that that's the thing I always
Speaker 1: hit on, is that what we what what we all
Speaker 1: was out on, is having a media ecosystem where the
Speaker 1: conversations that we need to be having critically are are
Speaker 1: able to be had. We don't have that right now.
Speaker 1: You know if even you, like I see the pushback
Speaker 1: that you get trying to make this point of like,
Speaker 1: yes there is racism happening in Ukraine, of course, and
Speaker 1: yes there are state actors trying to manipulate how we
Speaker 1: respond to it. And people will respond to you saying like, oh,
Speaker 1: you're negating racism or you're saying racism doesn't exist, and
Speaker 1: it just goes to show that we are losing out
Speaker 1: on having a media a digital media ecosystem where we
Speaker 1: can have these conversations and where we can actually move
Speaker 1: forward on these issues that are so critically important. Right,
Speaker 1: I just want to get this in there. Mean, first thing,
Speaker 1: we need legislation too. We we definitely and I hate
Speaker 1: to say this, but we're going to need legislation to
Speaker 1: help us. Um kind of you know, when this war,
Speaker 1: because that's what we're in now. We're in a disinformation war. Um,
Speaker 1: and the bad guys, I hate to say this, are winning.
Speaker 1: They really are because it's really easy, really really easy
Speaker 1: to you know, to have platform manipulation. It's really easy
Speaker 1: to change opinions on social media. People do not understand
Speaker 1: just how easy it is because something you said, Um,
Speaker 1: you know, like I look at this tweet and it
Speaker 1: almost seems like it's tailored for me. Man, it is,
Speaker 1: it is. It is really easy. And I've done this experiment.
Speaker 1: I've actually done this experiment. It's really easy to craft
Speaker 1: a tweet to make it go viral. It's really easy
Speaker 1: to craft a tweet to sparking emotion in a certain group. Um,
Speaker 1: whether you are l g B t Q plus, whether
Speaker 1: you are black, whether you're a woman, whether you're a male,
Speaker 1: whether you're an insult I don't what you are. If
Speaker 1: there are ways that you can craft tweets and if
Speaker 1: you do it the right time, at the right time
Speaker 1: of the day, and you use the certain keywords, it's
Speaker 1: going to go viral. Okay, almost every single time, it's
Speaker 1: going to go viral. Um. It's no different than marketing.
Speaker 1: And there are there are people that are getting paid
Speaker 1: a lot of money. Uh, you know, they're they're bad
Speaker 1: actors to figure out ways of doing these things, and
Speaker 1: you know, they have their systems on how to make
Speaker 1: things go viral. How to you know, to manipulate this
Speaker 1: group of people to do x y and z um.
Speaker 1: So we need legislation number one UM to kind of
Speaker 1: you know, I don't. I don't agree with this, this
Speaker 1: whole thing that like everyone needs to be verified because
Speaker 1: there are legitimate reasons why someone would not want to
Speaker 1: be verified. So I'm actually not against anonymous accounts. However,
Speaker 1: I am against accounts that are tending to be something else. So,
Speaker 1: you know, legislation, for example, preventing people from creating accounts
Speaker 1: for the sole purpose of platform manipulation could be one thing.
Speaker 1: Because don't be mistaken, it's not just happening in Russia
Speaker 1: or you know, some other far off place. You have
Speaker 1: people here in the United States, groups of people that
Speaker 1: are creating fake accounts to manipulate whether it's you know,
Speaker 1: regarding elections, whether it's white supremacists that are trying to
Speaker 1: so discord within the black community, whatever it may be.
Speaker 1: So that should be illegal number one. Um. And then
Speaker 1: the other thing is making platforms do more because they're
Speaker 1: just doing the bear the bear minimum And we all
Speaker 1: know this, anyone that's been on social media, you know,
Speaker 1: for the past month, maybe um know that the platforms
Speaker 1: are not doing enough. Um, So there needs to be
Speaker 1: legislation to kind of force them to do more or
Speaker 1: because why would they you know, why would Twitter, for example,
Speaker 1: remove ten thousand accounts when they don't have to, because
Speaker 1: that's money for them. When you think about the state
Speaker 1: of our our media landscape, are you hopeful, like, like,
Speaker 1: do you think it's a lost cause? Do you think
Speaker 1: you know, it's just such a cess pool and these
Speaker 1: platforms are going to do anything and we're never gonna
Speaker 1: get useful legislation or are you hopeful that we'll get
Speaker 1: somewhere to make it possible to have meaningful subset of change. Right. Um,
Speaker 1: I think it's going to take a big event, a
Speaker 1: big event, you know, maybe like a terrorist attack where
Speaker 1: and I always give this this example. There's really nothing
Speaker 1: stopping someone right now from using social media to to two. Say,
Speaker 1: for example, I'm gonna give you an example here. Um,
Speaker 1: let's say someone goes and they say, hey, yo, let's
Speaker 1: get a group of people. We're gonna we're going to
Speaker 1: make it look like that there are a bunch of
Speaker 1: black folks that are going around New York City and
Speaker 1: just stabbing people. And they go on social media and
Speaker 1: they start posting this stuff, and you know, they even
Speaker 1: have videos of black folks stabbing people. Now you got
Speaker 1: but a bunch of Caucasian white folks. They're like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, there are black folks that are going around
Speaker 1: New York and they are stabbing people, you know, and
Speaker 1: now they're walking down the street and they're nervous, and
Speaker 1: all of this is a hoax. This whole entire thing
Speaker 1: is a hoax. But it's going viral. It's going viral
Speaker 1: on Twitter, it's going viral on Facebook, it's going viral,
Speaker 1: and it's everywhere and it's all fake. I can tell
Speaker 1: you right now. There's nothing stopping this from happening right now. Um,
Speaker 1: because the platforms like Twitter and and and and they do,
Speaker 1: you know, like when stuff starts to get out of hand,
Speaker 1: they do take action, but they take action too late. Um,
Speaker 1: so you may have an hour or two that goes
Speaker 1: on before you know, goes by excuse me, before they
Speaker 1: take action. Um, that's more than enough. And we've seen
Speaker 1: this before in the past. It's you know, if there's
Speaker 1: a mass shooting all of a sudden, you see like
Speaker 1: the same picture from like the last five mass shootings
Speaker 1: where they claim it's this guy or whatever, and then
Speaker 1: that goes via, oh is this guy? Well, there's not
Speaker 1: anything really right now stopping anyone from you know, creating
Speaker 1: like a fake attack, which I will call it then
Speaker 1: you know, in a sense of terrorist attack where you're
Speaker 1: creating this this this this this fake you know the
Speaker 1: thing that's happening, and people are getting terrified because they think,
Speaker 1: oh my god, like they're black folks that are going around,
Speaker 1: you know, they're they're fed up and they're stabbing or
Speaker 1: killing white folks and what are we gonna do and
Speaker 1: all this other stuff. Um, and that's just like a
Speaker 1: weird example that I gave, but you can clearly see
Speaker 1: how platform manipulation could go from something starting on Twitter
Speaker 1: or Facebook or wherever and then spilling into the real world.
Speaker 1: And we got in we actually have real real world
Speaker 1: examples of that. Um you know, back in going into
Speaker 1: seventeen with the whole um Pizza Gate thing, where you know,
Speaker 1: you have that that individual who really thought Hillary Clinton
Speaker 1: was sex trafficking kids. Then we have won six Um
Speaker 1: a lot of that was organized online and it's spilled
Speaker 1: into the real world and you got these crazy people
Speaker 1: that were storming the capitol, you know. So there's nothing
Speaker 1: stopping you know, someone else from doing this. An event
Speaker 1: like that, well then prompt legislators here in the United
Speaker 1: States to say enough is enough, we need to do something. Um.
Speaker 1: So I gave a long answer to say that, Yes,
Speaker 1: I do think legislation is coming. I do believe that
Speaker 1: things are going to get better. I do I think eventually,
Speaker 1: you know, people are gonna just say enough is enough
Speaker 1: and things are going to move in the right direction.
Speaker 1: And I do believe that platforms are going to be
Speaker 1: forced to have to take action. UM So, you know,
Speaker 1: the question, I think the real question is not if
Speaker 1: what win? Are we talking another year? Are we talking
Speaker 1: five years? I don't. I don't have hopefully sooner rather
Speaker 1: than later, because I want to be out of business.
Speaker 1: I want bots and to be out of business. I
Speaker 1: want to be able to retire and not have to
Speaker 1: deal with you know, inauthentic accounts and bots and stuff.
Speaker 1: I mean, wouldn't it be great if we didn't have
Speaker 1: to wait for some sort of you know, calamitous events,
Speaker 1: and people with power to make this change would just
Speaker 1: do it, Like, wouldn't that be great? Well, you know,
Speaker 1: something really quickly and we didn't talk about this, but
Speaker 1: really really quickly. So all right, So the platforms have
Speaker 1: been blocking you know, Russia and you know, they've been
Speaker 1: blocking certain areas and things of that of that nature,
Speaker 1: and I've had people reach out to me. I've had
Speaker 1: journalists reach out and say, hey, have you noticed a
Speaker 1: decline and like trolling like this, things seem a bit quieter,
Speaker 1: you know, all you guys noticing this. And I tweeted
Speaker 1: about that earlier and I said the short answers, Yes,
Speaker 1: there's definitely a decline over the last you know, like
Speaker 1: let's say, to the last three or four days of
Speaker 1: just like the vitriol and the trolling, I mean, because
Speaker 1: we were just seeing like a lot of stuff regarding
Speaker 1: Biden and Biden you know, he can't remember when he
Speaker 1: did yesterday, you know, just nonsense like that, and we've
Speaker 1: definitely seen a decrease. Now, we've also seen an increase
Speaker 1: in accounts praising Vladimir Putin, and we've seen you know,
Speaker 1: fake accounts once again saying that Ukrainians are racist and
Speaker 1: it's a racist country. But overall, we've definitely seen a
Speaker 1: decline in the trolling. You know, And I made a
Speaker 1: joke not on Twitter, this is personally and I'm just like, God,
Speaker 1: I wish it was like this every single day, Like
Speaker 1: I wish that you can go onto social media and
Speaker 1: actually interact with people and not have to deal with
Speaker 1: the constant trolling. So you we we we were getting
Speaker 1: a glimpse of what life could be like if the
Speaker 1: platforms were actually to take this more seriously. And we
Speaker 1: deserve that. We deserve to be able to go on
Speaker 1: to our largest communications platforms and have a conversation without
Speaker 1: being trolled, without being harassed, Like we deserve that everybody deserves, absolutely,
Speaker 1: especially women and women of color, because at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, and we've provided data on this. Women
Speaker 1: are at the top of the list in terms of
Speaker 1: people who are constantly targeted and attacked, and women of
Speaker 1: color are the number one. UM and it's and platforms
Speaker 1: do need to do better at at at you know,
Speaker 1: curtailing a lot of this stuff that's happening. But you're
Speaker 1: absolutely right. First thing, a platform like Twitter. Sometimes I
Speaker 1: get really disappointed with Twitter because Twitter, for me, you know,
Speaker 1: it's people will talking about like Facebook and you know, Instagram.
Speaker 1: I think Twitter is the most powerful platform on the planet.
Speaker 1: I believe that to my core. And the reason behind
Speaker 1: that is because unlike other social networks, Um, Twitter can
Speaker 1: drive news cycles. You know Twitter, you know, I can
Speaker 1: put something out on Twitter into read something and it
Speaker 1: could be picked up by a major prop uh you know,
Speaker 1: outlet or publication or whatever. Um. You know, Joe Biden
Speaker 1: can go right now, President Biden can go and tweet
Speaker 1: something out about Ukraine and it will go viral. I
Speaker 1: mean it could literally start a war depending on what
Speaker 1: he you know, tweets out. So you know, people are
Speaker 1: using Twitter and journalists and world leaders are using Twitter
Speaker 1: to get news and information and everything out and unlike
Speaker 1: Facebook and Instagram, it's a platform for in a hub
Speaker 1: for information period. So you would think with you know,
Speaker 1: with a platform like this, that the people on Twitter
Speaker 1: would say, hey, you know something, we really need to
Speaker 1: make this place a lot better because we're like where
Speaker 1: people go for serious news. You know, a lot of
Speaker 1: people don't even go to that. They don't even have
Speaker 1: like cable anymore, or you know, they're not even like,
Speaker 1: you know, going and buying newspapers. Unfortunately, they're going to
Speaker 1: Twitter to get their news. So you would think the
Speaker 1: folks that Twitter would say, hey, it's time for us
Speaker 1: to really take our own platform seriously, Like they're they're
Speaker 1: I hate saying this, and and and there's nothing wrong
Speaker 1: with the n f T s, but I'm just like,
Speaker 1: why are you focusing on n f T like profile
Speaker 1: images where you should be focusing on the rampid disinformation
Speaker 1: and harassment on your platform? Like who asks for n
Speaker 1: f T profile pictures? Literally every time they released something,
Speaker 1: I'm like, who asked for this? Why don't you focus
Speaker 1: on You've got a lot on your plate in terms
Speaker 1: of making a fun, safer and better, Like, why don't
Speaker 1: you focus on that? I don't understand it. Like when
Speaker 1: I saw that, I was just like, who asked for this?
Speaker 1: You know? So I mean, look, I understand what my
Speaker 1: needs may be and what your needs may be. Maybe
Speaker 1: a little bit different from what the developer needs maybe, um,
Speaker 1: but they need to really sit down with folks and
Speaker 1: get an idea of what their platform really is about
Speaker 1: to other people. And I know, look, not everyone uses
Speaker 1: Twitter for news and things like that. There are people
Speaker 1: on there who are just doing their thing. I get that.
Speaker 1: But Twitter can definitely drive new cycles and because of that,
Speaker 1: the folks that Twitter need to to to do more,
Speaker 1: you know, they definitely need to do more. Well hopefully.
Speaker 1: I think that your work is really creating the conditions
Speaker 1: for them to really see that. I think that's very
Speaker 1: clear to me. And it sounds like you don't agree
Speaker 1: you know something. Um, I'm sorry and I completely apologized
Speaker 1: to cut you off. Um. I think I think our
Speaker 1: work for you know, the general republic and journalists and
Speaker 1: stuff like researchers. I think they look at our work
Speaker 1: and obviously want us to continue, and they, you know,
Speaker 1: value what we're doing. Twitter on the other hand, UM,
Speaker 1: I think we're kind of a thorn sometimes in their side,
Speaker 1: because we expose a lot of things that they probably
Speaker 1: don't want to be exposed. Um. So you know, I'm
Speaker 1: not saying Twitter would love for us to disappear. I'm
Speaker 1: not going to say that because I do believe they
Speaker 1: also find value in what we're doing. Um, but I
Speaker 1: think they probably would like it if we're like less
Speaker 1: effective at what we're doing. Something tells me you don't
Speaker 1: have any plans to become less effective? No, no, not
Speaker 1: at all, not at all. Well, Christopher, this has been
Speaker 1: such a good conversation. Where can people keep up with
Speaker 1: all of your work? Oh? Um? Well, first thing, you know,
Speaker 1: our website is bought Bot Sentinel s E N T
Speaker 1: I in e L dot com. Um, they can follow me.
Speaker 1: I'm at see bou z y. Um that's Twitter. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, look like I said, I use my account
Speaker 1: to try to educate people, and you know, I'm I'm
Speaker 1: very vocal about things. Um, I don't hold my tongue. Um.
Speaker 1: So you know, if you want to follow me on
Speaker 1: Twitter and learn more about this stuff and other issues
Speaker 1: as well, you can do that. But if you're just
Speaker 1: more focused on our technology, you can go to the website.
Speaker 1: People of Color in Ukraine deserve to make their voices
Speaker 1: heard without having to compete with disinformers and bad actors
Speaker 1: on social media platforms to do so. And we all
Speaker 1: deserve a digital media landscape that can be used to
Speaker 1: get authentic, accurate information about what's happening in our world,
Speaker 1: especially during a crisis. We all deserve better. You can
Speaker 1: help support black students in Ukraine and find more resources
Speaker 1: that Black Women for Black Lives. Go to Black Women
Speaker 1: for Black Lives dot org or click the link in
Speaker 1: the show description and we'll be continuing the conver station
Speaker 1: around what's happening in Ukraine later this week. Got a
Speaker 1: story about an interesting thing in tech, or just want
Speaker 1: to say hi, You can be us at Hello at
Speaker 1: tang godi dot com. You can also find transcripts for
Speaker 1: today's episode at tangdi dot com. There Are No Girls
Speaker 1: on the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod. It's
Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan
Speaker 1: Strickland as our executive producer, Terry Harrison as our producer,
Speaker 1: and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm
Speaker 1: your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow,
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