1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:09,480 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. Susan, 2 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: how do you want to be introduced? 3 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:11,560 Speaker 2: You know? 4 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: I mean, do you and me just say Susan and 5 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: she lives in the United States. 6 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 3: Just to be able to at least give your first. 7 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:22,599 Speaker 4: Name, Well, well, this will this be recorded and played elsewhere. 8 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 1: It's a podcast, so anybody will be able to access it. 9 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 4: Just use my first name, and if you don't mind, and. 10 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:35,559 Speaker 1: Tell me, you know what your trepidation just is in general? 11 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: Do you think is it just because of the family, 12 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: you know, being nervous? 13 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 3: What's kind of the trepidation. 14 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 5: And all of that. 15 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 4: As I've thought more about it being publicly broadcast, that 16 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:52,159 Speaker 4: if there were somebody out there that just had, you know, 17 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 4: a crazy thought to try to do something as revenge 18 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 4: or you know, some sort of payback in some way. 19 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 4: I would hate for any member of our family to 20 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 4: have something bad happen just because we were unfortunately related 21 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 4: to a serial killer. 22 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 1: Susan's relative murdered sixteen people. The victims' families were traumatized, heartbroken, 23 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: and vengeful. 24 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:26,319 Speaker 3: They rioted outside of his. 25 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:31,479 Speaker 1: Jail cell and demanded his blood. You might be cautious too. 26 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: If you were related to a prolific serial killer, I 27 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: wouldn't want to give my last name either. But you 28 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:41,559 Speaker 1: probably know by now that I only write about very 29 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 1: old true crime stories. And the killer in Susan's family 30 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: is her great great great uncle. He died almost two 31 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: hundred years ago. The relatives of his victims likely vanished 32 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: at least a century ago, so any threat of retribution 33 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: is gone. But that's what's the power of a macabre 34 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 1: family legacy. I mean, in some odd way, is it, 35 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:10,799 Speaker 1: you know, is it sort of a little bit of 36 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: a cautionary tale about exploring too much about your history. 37 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 4: You know, when you do reach ancestry research, you're always 38 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 4: I think in Sari, you're hoping to find someone who 39 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 4: came across on the Mayflower and did something amazing to 40 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,639 Speaker 4: establish the United States, or did something great for society. 41 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: See, there's still some shame two hundred years later, there's 42 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: still some shame. 43 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:35,920 Speaker 3: And being related to a serial killer. 44 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 4: It's shocking, and it is shameful because it's just a 45 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 4: horrible act against humanity what they did, and in taking 46 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 4: advantage of all these people. 47 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 3: Dan is another descendant. 48 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: The serial killer was his great great great uncle, and 49 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: he's a cousin of Susan's. He also asked me to 50 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: not include his last name. He wants me to figure 51 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: out if the real killers family also knew about all 52 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 1: of those murders. Was it a family secret? Were they 53 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: trying to protect a murderer? Do you think Constantine knew 54 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:12,359 Speaker 1: what was going on? 55 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 3: Do you think Elizabeth knew? 56 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: Well, you know, obviously she understood the aftermath of it. 57 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a true crime historian and author 58 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 1: of American Sherlock and Death in the Air. I write 59 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: about real stories that marry history with murder. Each season 60 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: is a new case with new families at the center 61 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: of it. I sort out the facts from the fables 62 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: in family history. And this is our second season of 63 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: tenfold More Wicked. It's set in the early nineteenth century 64 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: in Edinburgh, Scotland, and it's called The Body Snatcher. 65 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 3: There are three. 66 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: Men at the center of this tale, an unlikely partnership 67 00:03:55,200 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: initiated by greed, pride, and science. Their story inspired Scottish 68 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: author Robert Louis Stevenson to write a tale that has 69 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: terrified generations of children for almost two hundred years. But 70 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: this true crime mystery also rewrote the history of medicine. 71 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: It challenged Christianity and the very tenets that governed society 72 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: and much of Europe and America in the early eighteen hundreds. 73 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 1: But perhaps most importantly, the public outrage forced people around 74 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: the world to ask can murder actually save lives? 75 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 3: Because it did in this story. 76 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 6: The outcome, you could argue was positive. I certainly wouldn't 77 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 6: want to go back to that, even if it was 78 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 6: for the great good. 79 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: I've spent six years researching William Burke and William Hare. 80 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: I've traveled to Scotland four times and spent hours at 81 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:52,479 Speaker 1: the National Library reading trial transcripts and contemporary newspapers. I 82 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: have a file called Great Podcast Tales, and out of 83 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: all of those stories, this one is the most challenging. 84 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: You may have already heard of Burkenhair. They're quite famous 85 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: in Britain, like the legends of the Boogeyman, also known 86 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: as Old Bloody Bones or Sawny Bean. He was the 87 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:14,280 Speaker 1: fabled and likely mythical Scott who murdered and cannibalized more 88 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 1: than one thousand people in the sixteenth century. But William 89 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,799 Speaker 1: Burke and William Hare were real men, real serial killers, 90 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: and you've never heard this version of their story. Like 91 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: any good murder mystery, there are villains, there are heroes, 92 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: and there are too many victims and too few answers. 93 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: And at the center is a surgeon skilled at saving lives, 94 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: teaching students, and making lots of money. 95 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 5: At this point in history, you've got no idea who's 96 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 5: turning the truth. And he was a doctor. He must 97 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 5: know that many people just don't die. 98 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:55,159 Speaker 3: Let's see if we could figure that out. 99 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 1: It was October of eighteen twenty seven, in yellow hues 100 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 1: on the trees outside, nearly sparkled in the daylight. The 101 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:12,160 Speaker 1: anatomus stared down at her, the woman on his table. 102 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 1: He squinted at the tumor on her neck. 103 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 3: She didn't move. 104 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: Doctor Robert Knox picked up his scalpel and began gently 105 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: removing the mass. No need for pain relievers. His patient 106 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: was already dead. It was a difficult procedure, but he 107 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: did manage to remove the lump. Doctor Knox picked up 108 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 1: a drawing, a sketch of an almost identical tumor, but 109 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 1: this one came from a very live patient at the 110 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 1: Royal Infirmary of Edinburgh. The surgeons there were preparing to 111 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: operate on her right now. Knox looked at the tumor 112 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 1: and the dish on the table and he was alarmed. 113 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 1: He told the surgical team an operation will probably kill her, 114 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: and they believed him. Because Robert Knox was one of 115 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 1: the most talented ananimists in the world. They immediately canceled 116 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 1: the operation. Doctor Knox and his cadaff likely saved that 117 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: woman's life, and that was just one reason why anatomists 118 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: needed those bodies. In the nineteenth century, discoveries in anatomy 119 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: research had dramatically reduced the amount of deaths associated with amputations, 120 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: which was a big victory during times of war, and 121 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: it's also why they still need them. We're in a 122 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: brightly lit room on the top floor of an old 123 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 1: stone medical school building. Professor John Gillingwater is the head 124 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 1: of anatomy at the University of Edinburgh, one of the 125 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: world's top medical schools. 126 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 6: So right, where would the mid brain be? On there? 127 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 6: Thought was intact, Where would the mid brain be? 128 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: It's over here, sire, Well. 129 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 6: Put it next one that is intact, so you can 130 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 6: kind of trace it. 131 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: He's teaching a small number of postgraduate medical students. In 132 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: a neuro anatomy lab, there are groups of three or 133 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 1: four or Each group has a dish holding a section 134 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: of a human brain. 135 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 6: This is basically an oblique sections. This is where you've 136 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 6: got to get your orientation. Yeah, so that would be 137 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 6: on there like that. 138 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: They're squinting as they try to answer questions while gilling 139 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: Water and his assistant stroll around the room. Anatomy labs 140 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: like these are crucial, says doctor Gillingwater. 141 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 6: Those students they will dissect essentially a whole cadaver over 142 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 6: a year. Those that have had a solid grounding in 143 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 6: anatomy will do much better. 144 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,079 Speaker 1: For hundreds of years, medical students from around the world 145 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 1: have come here to Edinburgh to learn about medicine from 146 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 1: the inside out. Working on a cadaver is the cornerstone 147 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 1: of a surgeon's education. 148 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 6: If you want to know what lies underneath your skin, 149 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 6: or the skin of a patient you might be treating, 150 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 6: or just to understand the human body, you have to 151 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 6: have seen the real thing. 152 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: Doctor Knox was a leading figure in Edinburgh, someone who 153 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: had traveled in the same circles as author Sir Walter 154 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: Scott and naturalist James Audubon. He was one of the 155 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 1: most talented anatomists in the early eighteen hundreds, and thanks 156 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: to a seemingly endless supply of cadavers, he had a 157 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 1: crucial advantage for a surgeon in the early nineteenth century. 158 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: Doctor Knox was so respected that celebrated figures wanted to 159 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: meet him. Actually, just how Knox met James Audubon was interesting. 160 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 1: The author was in Scotland promoting his book The Birds 161 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: of America when they were introduced. The ananimous took Audubon 162 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,199 Speaker 1: on a tour of his lab. He winced as Knox 163 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: strutted around the room with blood still on his fingers. 164 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: Knox never bothered to wash his hands between lectures. The 165 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: naturalist left as soon as he could. Audubon later wrote, 166 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 1: the sites were extremely disagreeable, many of them shocking beyond 167 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 1: all I have ever thought could be. I was glad 168 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: to leave this Charnel house and breathe again the salubrious 169 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 1: atmosphere of the streets. Audubon might have been disgusted, but 170 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: Knox's students nearly worshiped him. He was a fellow of 171 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:12,079 Speaker 1: the prestigious Royal College of Surgeons of Edinburgh, an organization 172 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: reserved for only the brightest minds in medicine. Knox lectured 173 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: on bold, innovative ways of detecting diseases and understanding how 174 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: bodies work. He trained some of the most talented surgeons 175 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: in the world, including many in America, by showing them 176 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: a new way to view the body from the inside. 177 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: Doctor Knox saved lives as he delivered groundbreaking anatomy lectures 178 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 1: two thousands of future surgeons. These doctors would go on 179 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 1: to make scientific discoveries, invent new techniques, and teach other 180 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 1: talented surgeons. His students helped advance medicine in the United States. 181 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 1: Knox offered anatomy classes in his private lab, so he 182 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: didn't work within the University of Edinburgh. He actually was 183 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: competing against other professors for students and their tuition. He 184 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: had an advantage because he had something incredible to offer, 185 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:06,199 Speaker 1: access to cadavers. 186 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 2: Students used to flock to various people who were lecturing 187 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 2: outside university but not in it, and these included, among others, 188 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 2: Robert Knox, who was an extremely fine teacher, gave tremendously 189 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 2: exciting lecturers and of course gave the students plenty of 190 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 2: experience in dealing with and handling dead bodies. 191 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: That was historian Owen Dudley Edwards. Author Janet Philip is 192 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:37,319 Speaker 1: with the University of Edinburgh. She says that Knox's popularity 193 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: increased each year, and not just because he offered bodies. 194 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 5: He offered fresh cadavers, which was a big attraction, but 195 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 5: he was also a fantastic anatomist and teacher, and four 196 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 5: hundred students would turn up to his class. 197 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: The university was at the epicenter of medical education advancement 198 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: in the early eighteen hundreds. Only the best students were admitted. 199 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: Knox hired talented assistants who helped prep his cadavers and 200 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:11,239 Speaker 1: kept his secrets. 201 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 5: His power would have been great. I mean he taught 202 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 5: lots of people. You read the histories of him, and 203 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 5: his students loved him and the way that he taught. 204 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 5: But it's almost power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. 205 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 1: Doctor Knox and his fellow anatomy professors knew how to 206 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: wield their intellectual power, but they were frustrated, professionally stymied 207 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 1: by what they considered to be draconian beliefs from. 208 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:37,959 Speaker 3: Hious political leaders. 209 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 1: Religious leaders then believed that only complete bodies could be resurrected. 210 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: Religious doctrine forbade instructors all over the world from using 211 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: cadavers from anyone but executed criminals. They were the only 212 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: people who weren't allowed to receive a proper religious burial, 213 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 1: So the bodies of criminals were really valuable. But in 214 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: the early eighteen hundreds, parts of Europe had seen criminal 215 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: justice reform. New laws had drastically reduced the number of 216 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: executions in Britain, and. 217 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 5: What we'd get at executions is fights over the bodies. 218 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 5: So you'd have the relatives struggling to take their loved 219 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 5: ones away through proper burial, and then you'd have the 220 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 5: medic students and sometimes even the lecturers fighting to try 221 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 5: and get the body for dissection. 222 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: Robert Knox and his fellow anatomy professors believed that cadavers 223 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: were essential, and at the same time medicine was evolving 224 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:38,079 Speaker 1: really quickly. New advances were saving patients' lives. The conservative 225 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: elders in Edinburgh were devout Christians and they kept a 226 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: suspicious eye on Robert Knox and his assistance. 227 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 3: There was something alarming. 228 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: About a professor who happily toiled at dissecting cadavers before 229 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: hundreds of students while wearing a bloody smock, a real 230 00:13:55,320 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: life doctor Frankenstein. And the reality is most enemy professors 231 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century had to turn to the so 232 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: called resurrection men for supply. So I didn't know this, 233 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 1: but grave robbing actually wasn't a serious crime. It was 234 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 1: a misdemeanor. There was a small fine, but the medical 235 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 1: school always paid the bill. Purchasing recently buried bodies was 236 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: definitely illegal, but it was often ignored by overtaxed police 237 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: who were struggling in a dangerous city. Malcolm McCollum is 238 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: with the Anatomy Museum at the University of Edinburgh. He 239 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: says that desperate families were forced to hire night watchmen 240 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 1: at cemeteries. 241 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 7: If you could afford it, you can employ a man 242 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 7: with a rifle to look after your loved ones remains 243 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 7: for seventy two hours. But that wasn't for everybody, so 244 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 7: there was definitely the ordinary people must have been quite 245 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 7: fearful because this was a Christian country and you weren't 246 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 7: getting a Christian burial if your remains were being disturbed 247 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 7: and taking off to the medical schools. 248 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 5: The watch houses, and the gods in churchills weren't the 249 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 5: police militia. They were the local relatives who were making 250 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 5: sure that their relatives weren't taken away. 251 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: Families also built iron coffin frameworks around the graves, called 252 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 1: mort safes. Jeannett Felt takes me on a walking tour 253 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: of Old Town, starting with Grayfriars Kirkyard, the city's most 254 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: famous graveyard. Several iron mort safes still lay here almost 255 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: two hundred years later. I want to talk about this 256 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: real quickly, because this is impressive. I mean, this is 257 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: iron and obviously has been soldered and everything else. 258 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 5: It's just a big iron cage. Is one over there 259 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 5: that's been renovated. Yeah, you'd rent this, So you rent 260 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 5: it for four or five days, and then then the 261 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 5: next fan, funly would rent it. So it's worth a 262 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 5: blacksmith's time to make one. 263 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: Of these Families also head trip wires on the ground 264 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: attached to shotguns around the cemetery, so grave robbers would 265 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 1: pay a steep price for sneaking around at night. 266 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 5: So we'll head up this victorious street now, which, if 267 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 5: you're interested, is apparently the street that dagon Alley and 268 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 5: Harry Potter is based on my kids. 269 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 3: Will be interested in there. 270 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: But what was the time that the body that sort 271 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: of the body would expire for a grave robber to 272 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: be interested in coming in? 273 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 3: Is it four or five days? 274 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 5: Or or five days? And it's not a lot of views 275 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 5: for them because obviously we're talking pre preservation, so none 276 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 5: of these would have been embalmed. 277 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: So if you couldn't afford to hire reguard with a weapon, 278 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: where you didn't have the money to rent a metal 279 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: cage for the grave site, then your loved one would 280 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: likely end up on the lab table of an anatomist. 281 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: What is the justification for any anatomist at this point 282 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 1: in history for doing this? You know, is this for 283 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: the betterment of science? I mean, is it even that philosophical? 284 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 5: The best way to learn anatomy is to look inside 285 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 5: the body. I mean, there is an argument the person 286 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 5: is already dead, so if you just bury the body 287 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 5: in the ground, but he's learning anything from it. If 288 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:05,360 Speaker 5: you can train four hundred doctors that can go off 289 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 5: and save other people by the fact they've looked inside 290 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 5: that one body, then that is an argument for making 291 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 5: the best use of what you have in front of you. 292 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: But of course the families of the disinterred dead didn't 293 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: care for that argument. They believe to cease loved ones 294 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: belonged in heaven. Science could be cold and calculating, and 295 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: that's the crux of the story. When do we value 296 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: the wishes of someone over an advancement that will save 297 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:39,400 Speaker 1: countless other people? Buying corpses from the grave Robbing ghouls 298 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:43,200 Speaker 1: was a nasty business, yet a necessary one, it seemed, 299 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 1: in the pursuit of the greater good, saving lives through 300 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: medical research. Doctor Knox had employed grave robbers for years, 301 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 1: and he was specific about the types of bodies that 302 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: he wanted, ones that wouldn't attract attention, and Knox essentially 303 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:01,880 Speaker 1: said that in a letter that he wrote to his family. 304 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 1: Unanimis generally are most anxious to avoid public scenes such 305 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: as these, and for this purpose they are careful to 306 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: select subjects which are claimed by no relative or friend, 307 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: and thus often avoid the painful necessity of violating the 308 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 1: burial grounds, and by doing so, inflicting a shock on 309 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 1: the most sacred feelings on human nature. When grave robbers 310 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 1: arrived at his door with a cadaver, the professor and 311 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: his assistants never asked questions. 312 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 2: Any story that they were about to tell was swept aside. 313 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 2: Nobody wanted to hear a story about how they had 314 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 2: got that body. They simply wanted the body. 315 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: Who were these bodies before they became specimens of anatomy professors? 316 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 3: Mostly poor immigrants. 317 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 5: So there were lots of people that were looking for work, 318 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 5: looking for a livelihood. They came across to Edinburgh as 319 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 5: at that time we were building the Union Canal between 320 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 5: Edinburgh and Glasgow, so there was work. So there's an 321 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 5: awful lot of people that came across for work in 322 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 5: Edinburgh at that time. 323 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 1: The cobblestone streets of Old Town in eighteen twenty seven 324 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: were filled with dead eyed immigrants, as lost as when 325 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: they arrived. Many of the smoke tinged, dilapidated buildings teetered 326 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,920 Speaker 1: during strong windstorms, which were frequent in the winter months 327 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: when temperatures refused to climb past forty degrees fahrenheit. The 328 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:30,199 Speaker 1: city's borders were exploding with new business. The launch of 329 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: industrialization at the turn of the century meant an influx 330 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: of workers toiling in cotton fields, digging in the filthy 331 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: Union canal or cleaning the streets of old Town for 332 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 1: little pay. The air was tainted by the constant, putrid 333 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 1: stench of human and animal waste. It was horrible. During 334 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:55,159 Speaker 1: the day, the ancient cobblestones braced under the weight of 335 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 1: thousands of immigrants scuttling to their drudgery, all the streetmen 336 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: under scavengers and servants who rushed to begin work just 337 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: so it. 338 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 3: Would finally end. And then at night it was rarely peaceful. 339 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: The noise of pub fights and domestic squabbles and drunken 340 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 1: rages was deafening. 341 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:20,440 Speaker 5: So this is this is a close the Edinburgh's famous for, 342 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 5: you know, So I mean close is just a path 343 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:25,440 Speaker 5: between two of these large tenements. But the tenements could 344 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 5: be seven eight stories high and they tend to be steep. 345 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 3: You do get kind of a little bit of a 346 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:32,400 Speaker 3: workout here. 347 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: Janet Philip guides me through the narrow closes the pathways 348 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: between tenement buildings. She describes life as an Irish immigrant 349 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 1: in Edinburgh in eighteen twenty seven. 350 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 3: It's pretty depressing. 351 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 5: So these would be filthy if you can imagine. This 352 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 5: is before sanitation. They just threw the rubbish out the windows. 353 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 5: They would have been horrendous. 354 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: The drinking water was so noxious that most people turned 355 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: to whiskey or run instead. Sex workers trolled alleyways for clients. 356 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 1: Residents feared cholera and dysentery. 357 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 5: I mean that's the same for a lot of Britain 358 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 5: at those times that it was safe to drink the 359 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 5: beer and the whiskey than to actually drink the water. 360 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:17,440 Speaker 3: There were no sewers or running water. 361 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 5: Things would throw natch into the street. You had lots 362 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 5: of people living really close together at a time when 363 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 5: they didn't really understand how infection and these things worked. Yeah, 364 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,159 Speaker 5: they were going to be diseases all over the place. 365 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: This was Westport, an area of Old Town which might 366 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:40,879 Speaker 1: have been lifted straight from the pages of Dickens, But 367 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 1: the identity of Edinburgh had an alter ego. There was 368 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: an affluent section of town with straight streets and clean 369 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: buildings that was called Newtown. This was where doctor Knox lived, 370 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: along with all the other wealthy people in the city. 371 00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 5: The Newtown people wouldn't have come into the Old Town 372 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 5: unless they had reason the meat markets and those sort 373 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 5: of things. But it's probably their servants that came into 374 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 5: the Old Town rather than themselves. 375 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,199 Speaker 1: Doctor Knox was desperate for a steady source of bodies 376 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: for his anatomy class fresh bodies, and soon two men 377 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: would knock on. 378 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:20,120 Speaker 3: His door with a ghastly business arrangement. 379 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: It's so interesting how infamous killers are described in history books. 380 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 1: William Hare just looked evil to most Scots. Dark hair, 381 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: high cheek bones, a sharp jawline, and a mischievous smirk. 382 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 1: Janet Philip says he appeared to be oddly handsome and 383 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 1: definitely devilish. 384 00:22:58,080 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 3: That's a terrible combination. 385 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 5: How was he physically described badly? I mean he was 386 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 5: physically described as having one eye higher than the other, 387 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 5: which I mean we've got his life mask. One eye 388 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 5: is not higher than the other. So whether he stood 389 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 5: funny or something. And he's got a very pointy nose. 390 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: High cheekbones and a long straight nose, and he's very 391 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 1: striking and very nasty hair had claimed he was twenty 392 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 1: two years old, but he couldn't be trusted with his 393 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: slight build. The irishman was no taller than most women, 394 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 1: but an overload of whiskey could kick off a ferocious, 395 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: violent rage that would down a man twice his height. 396 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 1: My father would have called him Hell on wheels. 397 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 5: So they used to go around and help harvest crops 398 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 5: to make money, and so this story is about after 399 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 5: the harvest or the people go to the pub. They'd 400 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 5: put a sort of kitty on the table, getting one 401 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 5: round of drinks, and then stories of Hair just pocketing 402 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,880 Speaker 5: the rest of the money and when somebody queries what's 403 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:00,640 Speaker 5: going on, he just eats them up. 404 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: Hair was born in Newry, Ireland, but we don't know 405 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: much more about him. We do know that he worked 406 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 1: on the canal and that job changed his life. 407 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 2: Hair in any case, was one of a gang, a 408 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 2: team of about ten or so being run by a 409 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 2: man called Loge, whose wife, Margaret, was a pretty tough 410 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 2: lady who played her part with the gang and would 411 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 2: certainly good for wheeling a great huge stones that they 412 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 2: had to put in place in the growing canal, and 413 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 2: she would wheel them around the wheelbarrow. 414 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,199 Speaker 1: In eighteen twenty six, Hair rented a room at the 415 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 1: Logs Grubby lodging house in Westport. 416 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 5: He had stayed there when he was working, and he 417 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 5: had actually been asked to leave that barning house because 418 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,679 Speaker 5: he got a bit too friendly with the landlady. 419 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: Shortly after that happened, Margaret Laird's husband suddenly died. 420 00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 5: Which looking back now seems very suspicious. 421 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,639 Speaker 1: His deathbed became their marriage bed within two years, an 422 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: alarming beginning to a doomed relationship. Margaret Hare was described 423 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 1: by contemporary writers as vivaciously vicious as she devil. The 424 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: hairs drank heavily, and they fought like animals, But all 425 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 1: of those arguments were drowned out by the echoes of 426 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:28,639 Speaker 1: vulgarities ricocheting through the dank alleyways in old Town. William 427 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: Burke was a former military man with a boyish face 428 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 1: and a broad frame. He moved from northern Ireland to Edinburgh. 429 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 3: In eighteen eighteen. He was educated and literate, pretty unusual 430 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 3: for a laborer. 431 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 5: He was educated whilst he was in the militia in Donegal, 432 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:44,919 Speaker 5: and this was one of the scary things about him, 433 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 5: is that he was quite an educated man and yet 434 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 5: he still chose to do this. 435 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,679 Speaker 1: We don't know much about William Burke, especially about his 436 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 1: life in Ireland. We do know that he abandoned his 437 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: wife and children after their house burned down, and he 438 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 1: escaped to Edinburgh. Year old Catholic Wood a Scottish woman 439 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:09,120 Speaker 1: named Helen McDougall. Writers describe her as morose, wicked, and jealous, 440 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 1: but Burke seemed to love her, even if she did 441 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: put his soul in peril. 442 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 5: And now the local priest found out about that and 443 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 5: he was excommunicated from the Catholic Church because of that. 444 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 5: Long before any murders took any place. 445 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: Burke was a cobbler by trade. He was charming and 446 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: he was handsome. 447 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 5: He approached strangers and got them to go and drink 448 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 5: with him in the pub. Must have been quite charming. 449 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 3: Well, or they really wanted to drink. 450 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: William Burke and Helen MacDougall also fought violently, particularly when 451 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 1: Nelly suspected he was cheating. Burkenhair's wives were both difficult, 452 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 1: and that's an understatement. 453 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 3: Their neighbors had actually. 454 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 1: Called the police when one of Burke and Nelly's fights 455 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 1: became violent. 456 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 5: There's a police record of Burke almost killing Nelly. One 457 00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 5: of the neighbors where they were staying got the police 458 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 5: in too much. They came in and he was beating 459 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 5: us senseless and all the police did was check that 460 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 5: she was actually his wife. 461 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: So Birkenhare and their wives weren't honest or kind. They 462 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,439 Speaker 1: seemed like horrible people, and soon the four of them 463 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,360 Speaker 1: would meet and that was really unfortunate. 464 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 5: He and Nelly were about to leave Edinburgh to try 465 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 5: cobbling further down south when they bumped into Margaret lad 466 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 5: who Burke knew because he had stayed at their boarding 467 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 5: house at some point. Margaret led persuaded Burke and Nelly 468 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 5: to give Edinburgh one more go and said they could 469 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 5: use the stable at the back of the house that 470 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 5: she had with hair and he could run his cobbling 471 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,120 Speaker 5: business from there. So that's how they all came together. 472 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 1: And now an evil scheme was forming in the poorest 473 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 1: part of the city. In October of eighteen twenty seven, 474 00:27:55,119 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 1: business was lively for both anatomists and grave robbers. Undreds 475 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 1: of medical students were streaming into Edinburgh that fall, and 476 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,199 Speaker 1: they were spending anywhere from one hundred and fifty dollars 477 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: to seven hundred dollars per year on expensive textbooks, private courses, 478 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,120 Speaker 1: and a small dorm room on campus. That's a huge 479 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,880 Speaker 1: amount of money. In that time period, anatomy and physiology 480 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: classes attracted more students than any other course. For much 481 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 1: of the nineteenth century, but Ennept university professors drove students 482 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:30,359 Speaker 1: away that year, including a young Charles Darwin. Surgeons like 483 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,880 Speaker 1: Robert Knox offered private classes with real cadavers, and students 484 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: responded they knew that anatomy drawings couldn't replace real bodies. 485 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: Authors Owen Dudley Edwards and Janet Phelps say that the 486 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 1: university's head of anatomy was a horrible professor and everybody 487 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 1: knew it. 488 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,239 Speaker 2: The professor of anatomy, Alexander Monroe, was the grandson and 489 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 2: son of distinguished anatomis whose university chairs he had inherited. 490 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 2: Old Monroe seems to have been an extremely dull, tiresome lecturer. 491 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 2: The lectend had it that he was still using his 492 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 2: grandfather's lecture note. 493 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 5: So he was telling jokes that were, you know, fifty 494 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 5: years out of date and this sort of thing. He 495 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 5: literally just read from the script. And that was when 496 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 5: the anatomy teaching in the university plummeted, and all of 497 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 5: these private anatomy schools started popping up, because you would 498 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 5: go through your exams to become a doctor and you 499 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,320 Speaker 5: would fail on the anatomy Because of the way Munroe 500 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 5: had taught it. 501 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: Monroe's students made fun of him in class, jeered at him, 502 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 1: and spit pea shooters. Robert Knox and his fresh cadavers 503 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 1: signaled the future of medicine. Even though Monroe had a 504 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: big advantage. 505 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 2: She wasn't a man who was necessarily all that short 506 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 2: of bodies, because anybody who was hanged, the body wasn't 507 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 2: supposed to google to the professor of anatomy at the 508 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 2: University of Edinburgh. 509 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 1: And yet he didn't appreciate cadavers the way that Robert 510 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 1: Knox did. 511 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 2: Monroe gave them almost little more than a sight of 512 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 2: a bit of a body to illustra at some point 513 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 2: in a lecture, but not actually, as far as we 514 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 2: can gather, much in the way of them being able 515 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 2: to examine them themselves. Knox, on the other hand, made 516 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 2: it quite clear you paid ten pounds for your lectures, 517 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 2: and then you were given the use of a corpse. 518 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: Monroe offered little competition against someone like Robert Knox. Knox 519 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: was a celebrated lecturer, exhibiting a flair for fashion, wit 520 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 1: and knowledge that far exceeded his more boring contemporaries. All 521 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: of this was a striking contrast to his unusual appearance. 522 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 1: Childhood smallpox left him scarred and with just one eye. 523 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 1: His loyal prentices referred to him as old Cyclops, and 524 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 1: his arch rivals called him Robert the Devil. Knox was 525 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 1: obsessed with being named a full professor at the University 526 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: of Edinburgh. That was a pretty lofty goal, but the 527 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: surgeon didn't play politics well. He could earn a faculty 528 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: appointment if he continued his track record as an excellent 529 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 1: research and sought after teacher, but he needed a steady 530 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 1: supply of bodies. 531 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 3: Early one morning toward the end of. 532 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 1: October, Knox strolled to his lab to prepare for the 533 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 1: first of his three daily lectures on anatomy today. Just 534 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 1: like all the others, he didn't bother changing his bloody 535 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: apron in between lessons. To outsiders, it seemed like gruesome business, 536 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 1: but to Knox it was simply his job. He dealt 537 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 1: with bodies all day long. He opened them, dissected them, 538 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: marveled at them. Anatomy has always been a messy, labor 539 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 1: intensive business. The anatomy instructor was expected to turn the 540 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: clumsy slashes of a neophyte into the precise incisions of 541 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 1: an experienced surgeon. Knox trusted that the cadaver served a 542 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 1: higher purpose. They could save lives, and he was guiding 543 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: and mentoring students who would become the world's leading surgeons 544 00:31:58,000 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: and researchers. 545 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 3: But at what price. 546 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 1: And how large and deadly the cost? Anyone could tell 547 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 1: that Loge's Lodgings was a boarding house for the destitute. 548 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 5: They had some rooms, and in that room there were 549 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 5: twelve beds, and each of those beads was I think 550 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 5: three pm night, and it was actually a box filled 551 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 5: with straw, and when they got busy there would be 552 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 5: two people per bed. So that is the sort of 553 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 5: thing that the immigrants in the old town people would 554 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 5: have come into. 555 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: The Hair's Lodge was a sty. It was a dirty 556 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 1: den where stealthy renters often tried to exit with no 557 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: notice and without settling their debts. It had eight rooms 558 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: and several fireplaces, and it was in a filthy alleyway 559 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 1: called Tanner's Close in the Westport section of Edinburgh. No 560 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: one was ever surprised to hear the cries of murder 561 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 1: coming from that one story house. 562 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 3: It was horrid. 563 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 1: By the middle of winter, ice was almost a permanent 564 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: fixture on just about every roof in Edinburgh. On November 565 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 1: twenty ninth, eighteen twenty seven, the wind howled. Residents inside 566 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 1: Loge's lodgings tossed back and forth on their pallettes filled 567 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 1: with moldy hay. Well, not everyone one of the seemingly 568 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 1: forgotten residents was discovered dead. 569 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 5: So Old Donald was apparently an army pensioner who was 570 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 5: staying in Hare's boarding house and died, and he apparently 571 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 5: owed hair four pounds. 572 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 1: He likely died of dropsy, better known as anemia, and 573 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 1: it was such a painful way to die. But there 574 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: he was, lying on his bed, William Here peered down 575 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 1: at Old Donald. He didn't seem to feel one bit 576 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 1: of sorrow for the old man. William Burke just happened 577 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: to be there. Hare turned to him and complained about 578 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: the back rent he was owed, and so did his 579 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 1: wife Margaret. 580 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 5: Having got the body of Donald to dispose of, Hare 581 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 5: had the idea he could make back the money that 582 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,760 Speaker 5: Donald owed him by selling the body to the doctors. 583 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: It seemed like a fair exchange Old Donald's corpse for 584 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 1: his outstanding rent. 585 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 2: The estate of the deceased Donald consisted entirely of himself. 586 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 2: He had no goods that anybody knew about. The pension's 587 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 2: office certainly was not going to pay anything out to 588 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 2: him after he was dead. So you could say that 589 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 2: morally speaking, at least and possibly even legally, missus Hare 590 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 2: was entitled to the dead body. 591 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,400 Speaker 1: Hair convinced the local parish to pay a carpenter to 592 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 1: build the old man a cow horn. When he finished, 593 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 1: Old Donald's body was placed inside the day of the funeral, 594 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 1: Birkenheir snuck into the room. They quietly pried open the 595 00:34:55,800 --> 00:35:00,120 Speaker 1: poor man's coffin. 596 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,319 Speaker 5: Up the coffin, took out the body and filled it 597 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 5: up with bark. There was a tannery back with the 598 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 5: use of tan heights, which had obviously a big pile 599 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 5: of bark, So Birkenheir filled up the coffin with bark 600 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 5: so it was the same weight, so that when the 601 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 5: people came to remove the coffin, they wouldn't think anything untoward. 602 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 5: It happened. 603 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 1: They shoved Old Donald's body into a tea chest. It 604 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 1: seemed like a cold reaction to a man's death, but 605 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,840 Speaker 1: Janet Philip says, the people in eighteen twenty seven Edinburgh 606 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: were more practical than sentimental, at least an old town. 607 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:36,239 Speaker 1: Was everyone desperate for money in this area in Old 608 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:37,320 Speaker 1: Town during this time. 609 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,799 Speaker 5: Period, yeah, I think there were lots of people that 610 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,440 Speaker 5: were very poor, and back then, very poor meant that 611 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 5: you were going to starve and die essentially. So if 612 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 5: you could see that there's a body here that's going 613 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,839 Speaker 5: to be buried and this person owes you money, if 614 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,800 Speaker 5: somebody died in your house and nobody claimed the body, 615 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:54,880 Speaker 5: people did pass them to the medical school. 616 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 1: Later that afternoon, they searched for a doctor Alexander Monroe. 617 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 1: He was the unpopular professor at the University of Edinburgh 618 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:04,840 Speaker 1: who didn't believe in using bodies in his classes. 619 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 2: So they came up to the old Collengine and somewhere 620 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,399 Speaker 2: in that doorway they met a student and the Burke 621 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 2: asked about a professor of anatomy, and the student said, oh, 622 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:21,319 Speaker 2: you want to sell a body, do you You'll get 623 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:25,400 Speaker 2: more from doctor Knox than you'll get from the professor 624 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 2: of anatomy. 625 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 1: The student offered them doctor Knox's address, number ten Surgeon Square. 626 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: When they arrived, they asked for the anatomist. They were 627 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,840 Speaker 1: greeted by his three assistants, including one outstanding future surgeon 628 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:45,240 Speaker 1: named William Ferguson. Birkenhair put out their hands and introduced 629 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: themselves as John and William. They told the assistants that 630 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:50,720 Speaker 1: they had a body to sell to doctor Knox. 631 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:52,680 Speaker 3: Come back at night. 632 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 1: Ferguson even offered to send a porter to their home 633 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 1: to help carry back the body. No, no, the men 634 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,840 Speaker 1: insisted they were happy to carry Old Donald back to 635 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,759 Speaker 1: the laboratory themselves. They didn't care to let anyone in 636 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 1: Newtown know where they lived. Birkenhair used the pathways of 637 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 1: Edinburgh's numerous grave robbers. Old Donald was heavier than they thought. 638 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 1: The cobblestone streets of Old Town were slick in the mist, 639 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,360 Speaker 1: the steps were steep, and they were cloaked in darkness. 640 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,399 Speaker 1: Soon they were standing in front of a regal, yet 641 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 1: odd looking older man. Robert Knox, told them to lay 642 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:34,840 Speaker 1: the body on the examining table. Old Donald was still 643 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 1: wearing a shirt. The anatomist examined him. Knox checked for damage, disease, 644 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:45,800 Speaker 1: anything that might help or hinder scientific study. Old Donald 645 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 1: was once a sad pensioner, but now he was an 646 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:55,280 Speaker 1: excellent specimen. Knox offered the men seven pounds ten shillings. 647 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,879 Speaker 1: It was a lot of money for two laborers. And 648 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,240 Speaker 1: he asked no questions about where where the man came from, 649 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 1: not one question. Old Donald was a prize for doctor Knox. 650 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,200 Speaker 1: He wasn't a criminal with rope burns still around his neck. 651 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 1: He wasn't a partially decomposed corpse with dirt still embedded 652 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,760 Speaker 1: in his hair or mold on his flesh from being buried. 653 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:20,480 Speaker 1: This man was pristine. What's really sad is that Old 654 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 1: Donald was probably more valuable. 655 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:24,839 Speaker 3: In death than in life. 656 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 1: As Burke and Hare left doctor Knox's laboratory that night, 657 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,279 Speaker 1: one of the anatomist's assistants called out to them. He 658 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 1: said they would be glad to see them again when 659 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:39,320 Speaker 1: they had another body to dispose of, and with that offer, 660 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:43,279 Speaker 1: the pair joined into a catastrophic and deadly bond with 661 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:48,279 Speaker 1: one of Scotland's most distinguished professors. Doctor Robert Knox would 662 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 1: rewrite medical history and William Burke and William Hare would 663 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:57,160 Speaker 1: become the most famous grave robbers to never rob a grave. 664 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,720 Speaker 1: This season on Tenfold, more wicked. 665 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 5: People come in and they talk absolutely rubbish about birkenhair 666 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 5: that's not the story. You don't have to make it 667 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 5: more gory. It's already to people that are killing people 668 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:17,760 Speaker 5: for money. It's gory enough. 669 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:22,640 Speaker 8: I never heard anything about this. It's something she just 670 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 8: tucked inside of her heart or whatever and decided she 671 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:29,279 Speaker 8: was just going to carry that burden and not share 672 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:30,719 Speaker 8: it with anyone. 673 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,640 Speaker 5: So when these victims came in to the anatomy schools, 674 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,400 Speaker 5: there were no signs on them. The chance of a 675 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:41,400 Speaker 5: doctor recognizing a murder victim murdered the way Birkenheer had 676 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:42,759 Speaker 5: done it, it's pretty slim. 677 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 3: It's brilliant. 678 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:47,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, if you love historical true crime, be sure to 679 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,719 Speaker 1: order my book, American Sherlock. It's about a real life 680 00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:53,880 Speaker 1: Sherlock Holmes who solved some of the most gruesome murders 681 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 1: in the nineteen twenties. The paperback arrives on February sixteenth, 682 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:02,399 Speaker 1: but it's available for pre order now. This has been 683 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:06,920 Speaker 1: an exactly right and tenfold more. Media production producers Jason 684 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:12,720 Speaker 1: Whaling and Laura Soble, sound designer Eric Friend, composer Curtis Heath, 685 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:18,799 Speaker 1: artwork Nick Toga. Executive producers Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgariff and 686 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 1: Danielle Kramer. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold 687 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 1: more Wicked, and on Twitter at tenfold more. If you're 688 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,840 Speaker 1: an advertiser interested in advertising on our show, go to 689 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:33,759 Speaker 1: midroll dot com slash ads, and if you know of 690 00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,840 Speaker 1: a historical crime that could use some attention, email us 691 00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:43,160 Speaker 1: at info at tenfoldmorewicked dot com. So please listen, subscribe, 692 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,800 Speaker 1: leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever 693 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:48,000 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.