WEBVTT - Crypto Winter Comes For The Digital Nomads 0:00:04.200 --> 0:00:08.520 This is Bloomberg Crypto Daily Bloomberg I heard podcast. It's Tuesday, 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:28.320 October four. I'm a senior crypto editor for Bloomberg News. 0:00:28.560 --> 0:00:32.199 In Today for Stacy Marine. For many of us, the 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:34.519 pandemic has meant getting to know what it's like to 0:00:34.560 --> 0:00:38.400 work remotely and in most cases, from home. But in 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:42.160 crypto remote working had already been the norm for some time, 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:45.479 with many workers roaming the world all year round and 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:49.240 logging in from dreaming locations like the sandy beaches of 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:53.000 the Caribbean or the palm line prominence of Miami Beach. 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:57.520 When crypto prices were high, these roving crypto workers enjoyed 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:00.920 the benefits of being digital nomads, being from country to 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:04.440 country in an attempt to leave behind the stress, expense, 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:09.240 and bustle that's often associated with large financial centers. But 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:12.360 now that the crypto market isn't quite a sunny many 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:15.400 of these nomads have started trickling back to the financial 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:19.080 hubs of the world. Today. I'm joined by Bloomberg reporter 0:01:19.240 --> 0:01:22.640 taz Aktar. It's also like communities have been built all over, 0:01:23.040 --> 0:01:27.400 like for example, Miami, Estonia, Portugal and Panther Protocol CEO 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:31.880 Oliver Gail. Nothing will substitute for the human experience, So 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:34.600 people need to come together to hear more about the 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:38.160 crypto nomad lifestyle and why for the time being, he's 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:50.400 trying to give it up. Hi, Oliver Taz, thank you 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:53.160 for joining me. Hello, So let's start tas. You want 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:55.600 to tell us how you know Oliver, how you guys 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:57.280 met and how he ended up being in one of 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:00.840 our stories. Yeah, sure, so I'm at It's Ali back 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:05.240 in Miami in April. So we met as a crypto 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:08.840 dinner hosted by the car Donal founder Charles Hoskinson. Um. 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:13.200 Back then we were actually in a bear market as well, right, well, 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:14.720 I don't know what crypto was trading out, but we 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:17.359 was like, well, into a bear market, like we are now. 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:21.600 Um and yeah, so he told me about his exchange 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:24.799 called bit, which is headquartered in Barbados, and then we 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:27.440 kept in touch by Instagram and here we are. Yeah. 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:30.880 It was pretty I guess it was pretty organic. But 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:33.240 I think during that dinner we mostly talked about travel, 0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:35.480 you know, chasing the sunsets and all. You were showing 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:38.720 me pictures of like Barbados and his lifestyle on the road. 0:02:39.120 --> 0:02:40.920 I was talking about pizza quite a bit. So we 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:44.119 both kind of had a similar lifestyle, right, So yeah, 0:02:44.160 --> 0:02:46.200 so tells what were your reporter? Now? What were you 0:02:46.240 --> 0:02:49.320 doing in Miami? I was covering the crypto conference, So 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:52.440 a lot of my lifestyle involved like just chasing conferences 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:56.080 and just being embedded with the crypto community. Really because 0:02:56.080 --> 0:02:58.679 you are a crypto Noma too, right for our listeners, 0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:01.359 like they might not all this, but we have too 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:05.440 crypto two former cryptom But I'm I wouldn't say I'm 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:08.639 well into the crypti industry, like I don't hold cryptome objective, right, 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:10.600 So I was kind of like just getting a feel 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:14.040 of what Miami is about. That's what happens. And actually 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:18.200 Surrest was there as well, wasn't he the Miami um 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:21.480 mayor mayor sorry the Miami So he was needed an 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:24.640 opening note back into you were I mean you were 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:28.880 sitting at the right table, you know, as a crypto journalist. 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:32.600 Because you know, when Charles walks, the ground shakes a 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:35.680 little bit, all right, So all they tell us about yourself, 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:39.000 like where you're from, like and how and very how 0:03:39.000 --> 0:03:41.280 you ended up here in London again, right, because from 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:45.480 Miami to where you were before like, yeah, well, some 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:48.800 people say my accident is international and or is it Irish? 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:52.160 And definitely not from Ireland and from Barbados and uh 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:55.480 I was born in England but grew up in Barbados 0:03:55.920 --> 0:04:01.240 from an infant onwards. And my background in crypto really 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:04.600 I set up the first Caribbean bitcoin exchange and mining 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:08.480 company and then we just had huge problems with correspondent 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:12.200 banks and regulators and so we ended up partnering with 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:15.800 the Eastern Caribbean government and did the first central buying 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:21.440 digital currency and so that was early days. I was 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:24.600 CFO and president and co founder of that company, and 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:27.919 then I left and set up a venture studio and 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:32.360 began incubating protocols um CEO of one called Panther Protocol now, 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:37.200 which is working to make everyone free by restoring privacy 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:41.640 and rights to sovereignty. And that company was formed during 0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:46.320 the pandemic and so we raised all the capital, assembled 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:49.960 the team began building the technology all remotely and it 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:54.680 was a joy. But I've been traveling since twenty fourteen, 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:59.800 moving countries for businesses. So what is it like the 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:01.840 give us a sense that you're like, how long do 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:03.280 you stay in one place? Do you know where you're 0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:05.719 gonna go next? Like how do you pick the places? 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:10.240 Is it where there's a conference where the sun is Yeah, definitely. 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:12.880 I mean those last two points are really important for 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:15.400 me at least that where's the sun shining? Where is 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:20.479 there a conference or or business that can be done. 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:23.680 I feel like at this day in time, you can 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:28.560 do business remotely quite effectively, and so I can really operate. 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:32.080 You know, we operate across almost all time zones as well, 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:36.120 because it's not just one company. There's a a UK 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:40.640 credit platform, there's a Gibraltar protocol business, there's a Delaware 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:44.520 protocol business, there's a Cayman fund, there's the Barbadian Exchange, 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:48.239 and so the team is all over the world. So 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:52.120 wherever I am, I'm always in some some pockets time 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:56.839 zone and we work an asynchronously a lot so emails 0:05:56.880 --> 0:06:01.200 and messenger platforms. I think it's also important noting that 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:05.240 Oliver's lifestyle is quite common within the crypto industry, so 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:08.560 you're gonna find a lot of businesses are decentralized, and 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:11.039 there's also like communities that have been built all over 0:06:11.440 --> 0:06:16.000 like for example Miami, Estonia, Portugal. So I tell us 0:06:16.040 --> 0:06:18.120 why have you decided to kind of settle down and 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:21.039 white London? And you know, have you seen more cryptonomics 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:23.440 moved back to financial centers, Because I guess that's kind 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:25.400 of the point of what we wrote, is like there 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:28.000 was lots of moving around, but like slowly as the 0:06:28.040 --> 0:06:30.919 center's reopen, more people are trickling back. Yeah, and people 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:33.599 want to see each other in person, you know, so 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:36.720 the waiting of in person meetings has gone back up. 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:39.799 In the pandemic, it was perfect. I loved it. Every 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:42.440 thirty minutes you have a different meeting with somebody, you 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:46.000 really connect with them virtually and you do whatever needs 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:48.000 to be done because that's how you have to do it. 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:50.880 Whereas now there's a discount on that. It's like, yeah, 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:53.040 the virtual conference is great, but you know what's better 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:55.920 looking someone in the eyes and shaking their hand. And 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:57.800 since we can do it, we want to do it. 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:01.920 And so that's my general observation when I look at 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:07.440 London itself. Though um London is a fintech hub. It 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:10.720 does have very good tax incentives for things like research 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:14.160 and development if you're building software. They have good incentives 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:19.720 for investors. European investors are are strong. British investors are strong, 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:22.160 not as strong as those in the US in terms 0:07:22.200 --> 0:07:25.640 of their risk appetite and check size, but uh, what 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:28.440 you've got is a huge pool of talent. And from 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:31.760 a lifestyle perspective, to me, London is it. I mean 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:34.800 the weather shore is not great, but I don't spend 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:38.320 winter here, so it's like I'm you know, getting on 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:41.600 a plane any minute now, it's October coming up. I 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:44.120 won't be here for October and I never will if 0:07:44.160 --> 0:07:46.360 I can avoid it, unless I have to come for business. 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:48.920 And you asked, like, what's it looked like in the 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:53.360 I would say sixteen I was spending six months or 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:56.440 so on average in a place. Now it's more like 0:07:56.640 --> 0:08:02.119 six days, maybe two weeks, and then ago wherever else. 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:04.240 A lot of the time it's just synchronicity. You meet 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:07.680 someone or see someone and you do business and they're like, hey, 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:09.920 what are you doing next week? You should come so 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:12.400 and so and speak or how or have a meeting 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:16.400 or hang out and so you do it. So how 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:18.760 how do you do that? I mean, I guess everybody's 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:21.840 situation is different, but it seems quite expensive to move 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:23.880 from one place to another because someone just invites you 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:26.520 to a meeting or a conference and like, so, so, 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:30.920 how has that, like the crypto winter affected movement, you think, 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:33.560 for you and for the community at larger you seeing 0:08:33.559 --> 0:08:36.040 more people saying I have to like tone it down. 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:40.880 In the bowl market, these conferences start to resemble a festival, 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:45.280 and everybody's quote unquote got it, and they're you know, 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:50.280 sailing high. Then the bear market comes around, and just 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:53.400 like birds of migrating in winter, all of the transient 0:08:53.520 --> 0:08:57.560 people disappear again. And in the peak of a bear market, 0:08:57.600 --> 0:09:00.920 which we might not be in right now, uh like 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:03.080 it could go, could go a lot longer than this. 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:05.440 Then you start to look around the room and you 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:10.000 see the familiar faces. Ah yeah, yeah, real ogs, that's 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:13.839 what that's what they call them in crypto, And so yeah, 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:17.200 I mean it is expensive though, however, I've been in 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:20.160 crypto a long time, so like there's multiple ways to 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:22.200 look at it. One is I'm enjoying my life. The 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:24.520 other is the impact that I have where I go 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:27.560 exceeds the cost of what I'm doing, how much, you know, 0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:31.560 staying in a hotel or wherever. After the break More 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:35.120 from Panther Protocol Ceo Oliver Gale about living the crypto 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:56.440 nomad lifestyle and the lessons he's learned along the way. 0:09:57.160 --> 0:09:59.480 All my life, I've always been about my growth. In 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:02.920 case you didn't no. Oliver is also a singer songwriter. 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:07.440 The music underneath Us right now is Oliver's own song 0:10:07.800 --> 0:10:12.000 called Sail the Coast. So when you think about your 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:13.920 time around the world, what were some of the lessons 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:16.640 you learned or things that you think will stay with 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:20.320 you as you remain in one place. Can you still 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:22.840 be a nomad at heart, but like sleep in the 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:25.720 same bed. Yeah, I think that's a that's a great 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:29.520 place to look at it from, really and truly, there's 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:32.240 a level of letting go of the plan when you're 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:36.800 living a nomadic lifestyle because it's very difficult to plan, 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:40.280 and if you do, changing flights and accommodation all the 0:10:40.320 --> 0:10:43.680 time will be the inevitable outcome. So I think one 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:46.600 of the big things for me is it's pulled me 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:50.280 into a sense of sometimes not knowing where I'm going 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:54.360 to be tomorrow, Like tomorrow is tomorrow's problem, So let's 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:56.680 figure out what Whether it's what meetings I have, where 0:10:56.679 --> 0:10:59.480 I have to go on my flying you know, I'll 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:03.400 figure be told I'm flying tomorrow, but really, like, I 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:06.360 don't even make plans anymore. And so there's a beauty 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:09.000 to that because it gives you a huge sense of freedom. 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:11.800 I think the other side to that too is I 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:15.680 occur in people's lives like an ephemeral figure. Oh wow, 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:19.280 Oh my gosh, you're in l a Yeah, oh cool, 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:21.240 you live here. No, I'm going to London. Then I'm 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:23.559 in London. Oh you're in London. Do you live here? 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:25.800 And no? Not right now, I'm going to Barbados. Oh wow, 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:28.400 you're backing Barbados. No, good to see you again. So 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:31.840 you stay. No, I'm off to Colombia. That's literally the 0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:34.160 last that's the two weeks in my life. That's the 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:37.040 week that just passed, and it's the next two weeks 0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:40.720 in front of me. So it's great to form meaningful 0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:45.040 connections with people, whether they're personal or professional. But that's 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:47.559 the challenge and I'm I'm really looking forward to actually 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:52.120 grounding myself and building some more permanent community as well. 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:56.920 And for me, big city like London, right next to Europe, 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:02.080 different weather to the Caribbeans, so I can basically arbitrage 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:06.040 the seasons but as companies scale and the sector matures, 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:08.400 you think more people will need to have basis and 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:11.960 you'll need to colless around communities are not read it 0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:14.880 like is there a benefit like, as you said, you know, 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:17.320 meeting people and shaking their hand. Do you need that 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:19.400 with your colleagues at one point? Right, because people listening 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:21.680 to this will have experience working from home and never 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:24.199 seeing their colleagues for two years and maybe they're seeing 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:26.079 them now and they're like, WHOA, Yeah, it's actually cool 0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:29.960 to like chat before work, Like you need that to 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:32.400 to scale a company or not? Really, I'm going to 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:36.559 say it would definitely depend on the industry. In tech, 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:41.600 I don't think so. I think cultural precedent was redefined 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:44.920 during the pandemic, and it's pretty clear that if you 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:48.319 have the right communication tools, project management tools, and accountable 0:12:48.360 --> 0:12:52.360 team you really need. You need a team of people 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:55.320 that do what they say they will do when they 0:12:55.320 --> 0:12:59.760 say they'll do it. Otherwise distributed teams, remote teams don't work. 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:05.000 So my experience of building teams of this nature is 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:08.439 one bad apple can spoil the whole bunch because it's 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:11.040 like a bad communication note in your network of people. 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:13.199 They've got to go. You've got to find the right people. 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:19.080 A tech facilitates that because it's non physical. That being said, 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:23.440 nothing will substitute for the human experience. So people need 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:28.280 to come together. I think working spaces are important. Workshops 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:32.680 and team bonding sessions are important and also very difficult 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:35.640 to coordinate. I've been trying to do it with Panther 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:38.840 for like four months now, just to get people together, 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:43.359 have some fun together. You know, it brings you together 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:47.680 around the mission division of your company, so I would 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:50.040 I'm not discounting it. And then as well, it depends 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:52.880 on your position, So if you're the deal maker or 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:55.600 responsible for bringing in capital one way or the other, 0:13:56.240 --> 0:14:01.000 nothing's gonna be sitting down with someone and spending particularly 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:04.440 if you do everything but talk about business. That's really helpful. 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:08.240 Thank you, Oliver, Thank you tas. You can find more 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:11.480 of tas aktars reporting on the Bloomberg Terminal, on Bloomberg 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:15.640 dot com and on Twitter at tansil Underscore Actar. That's 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:20.320 at t A n Z E L Underscore A K 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:25.640 H T A R. I'm Alera in today for Stacy 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:35.480 Mary Ishmael on the next episode of Bloomberg Crypto Adam Newman, 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:38.800 known for founding we Work and popularizing the idea of 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:43.200 coworking spaces, as well as for extravagance in ex centric behavior, 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:51.600 is back, and this time there's a crypto angle. This 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:54.800 is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily podcast from Bloomberg and I 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:58.120 Heeart Radio. For more shows from I Heart Radio, visit 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:01.200 the iHeart Radio app, Apple plug Casts, or wherever you 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:05.240 get your podcasts. Send us your comments, questions, or suggestions 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:08.280 for the show to Crypto at Bloomberg dot net or 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:14.000 find us on Twitter. We're at Crypto. The supervising producer 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:17.520 of Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky Verglina. Our senior producer is 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:21.960 Janet Babin. Our producer is Mohammed Farruk. Associate producer is 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:25.920 Moses on m Desta wonder At is our engineer. Original 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:31.000 music by Leo Sidrin. I'm Stacy Marie Schmaal. We'll be 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:31.640 back tomorrow.