1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:25,436 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hello, Hello everyone, Malcolm Glapwell here we're continuing our 2 00:00:25,476 --> 00:00:27,596 Speaker 1: build up to the main event in this season of 3 00:00:27,636 --> 00:00:31,636 Speaker 1: Revision's History, which is a mini series on guns, six 4 00:00:31,716 --> 00:00:35,556 Speaker 1: parts beginning August thirty first, which is some of my 5 00:00:35,556 --> 00:00:40,436 Speaker 1: favorite work that we've ever done, a Revision's History. So 6 00:00:40,556 --> 00:00:43,276 Speaker 1: please put that on your calendar and if you want 7 00:00:43,276 --> 00:00:46,836 Speaker 1: to binge listen to it early without any adds. Go 8 00:00:46,876 --> 00:00:51,156 Speaker 1: to Pushkin dot fm, slash plus and sign up for 9 00:00:51,196 --> 00:00:54,996 Speaker 1: a Pushkin subscription anyway to get you in the mood 10 00:00:55,076 --> 00:00:57,956 Speaker 1: for that series, which I will say right now goes 11 00:00:57,956 --> 00:01:01,196 Speaker 1: in some very strange directions. I thought i'd give you this. 12 00:01:01,956 --> 00:01:04,236 Speaker 1: It's a speech I gave at the New Orleans Book 13 00:01:04,236 --> 00:01:08,756 Speaker 1: Festival at Tulane University. I asked the organizers if I 14 00:01:08,756 --> 00:01:11,916 Speaker 1: could do it, an old fashioned lecture on murder mysteries 15 00:01:12,196 --> 00:01:15,716 Speaker 1: and police procedurals, which I have been obsessed with ever 16 00:01:15,756 --> 00:01:18,476 Speaker 1: since my dad read schrlock Holms short stories to me 17 00:01:18,516 --> 00:01:22,236 Speaker 1: and my brothers when we were kids. They said sure, 18 00:01:22,836 --> 00:01:27,636 Speaker 1: and I said, oh my god. So picture a packed auditorium. 19 00:01:27,796 --> 00:01:31,396 Speaker 1: Everyone has book bags, and while they're waiting, they're reading books. 20 00:01:31,476 --> 00:01:34,236 Speaker 1: They're not on their phones, catching up on their crust. 21 00:01:34,756 --> 00:01:38,196 Speaker 1: This is a talk to a room full of serious readers, 22 00:01:38,356 --> 00:01:40,836 Speaker 1: which is to say, a room full of people who 23 00:01:40,836 --> 00:01:43,396 Speaker 1: are more interested in being delighted than they are in 24 00:01:43,476 --> 00:01:48,196 Speaker 1: being persuaded. My kind of people. All Right, here it is. 25 00:01:52,516 --> 00:01:54,796 Speaker 1: I want to thank the New Orleans Book Festival for 26 00:01:55,596 --> 00:02:02,076 Speaker 1: allowing me this time today. I wanted to start by 27 00:02:02,956 --> 00:02:04,956 Speaker 1: apologizing for the title. I don't know if you saw 28 00:02:04,996 --> 00:02:10,636 Speaker 1: the title in the program, Eastern, Western, Northern, Southern, and 29 00:02:10,796 --> 00:02:16,836 Speaker 1: over theorized and potentially absurd taxonomy of the modern mystery story. First, 30 00:02:17,156 --> 00:02:22,436 Speaker 1: a simple warning that title is dead serious. This whole 31 00:02:22,556 --> 00:02:26,796 Speaker 1: episode is going to get a little absurd and over theorized. 32 00:02:27,116 --> 00:02:29,276 Speaker 1: So don't stand up at the end and say, mister Glawell, 33 00:02:29,316 --> 00:02:34,156 Speaker 1: I found your presentation absurd and over theorized. I already 34 00:02:34,196 --> 00:02:40,316 Speaker 1: warned you. I have disclosed that risk at the outset. Secondly, 35 00:02:40,436 --> 00:02:44,076 Speaker 1: I've chosen to speak about crime novels because and mysteries 36 00:02:44,116 --> 00:02:47,956 Speaker 1: because I'm addicted to them. I read in order spy novels, 37 00:02:48,116 --> 00:02:52,156 Speaker 1: thrillers of various kinds, novels involving events that potentially threaten 38 00:02:52,196 --> 00:02:56,116 Speaker 1: the safety of the entire planet, and the category that 39 00:02:56,196 --> 00:03:02,236 Speaker 1: concerns us today police procedurals and crime stories and their 40 00:03:02,276 --> 00:03:05,236 Speaker 1: television and film equivalents. You know when you go into 41 00:03:05,276 --> 00:03:08,436 Speaker 1: the Hudson News in an airport and there's that whole 42 00:03:08,516 --> 00:03:12,156 Speaker 1: wall of paperbacks. I have read every one of those 43 00:03:12,236 --> 00:03:15,396 Speaker 1: paperbacks except for the ones with the word girl in 44 00:03:15,476 --> 00:03:20,796 Speaker 1: the title. My daughter, who is eighteen months old, spends 45 00:03:20,836 --> 00:03:23,036 Speaker 1: a lot of time in a very large playpen, and 46 00:03:23,036 --> 00:03:26,836 Speaker 1: the playpen immediately abuts the bookcase where I keep all 47 00:03:26,876 --> 00:03:30,676 Speaker 1: of my thrillers, and a couple days ago she reached 48 00:03:30,756 --> 00:03:37,396 Speaker 1: up and grabbed Daniel Silva's The Kill Artist and started 49 00:03:37,396 --> 00:03:40,436 Speaker 1: to turn the pages. Now, The Kill Artist is the 50 00:03:40,516 --> 00:03:44,316 Speaker 1: first installment in Daniel Silva's series of books on the 51 00:03:44,436 --> 00:03:49,916 Speaker 1: legendary Israeli assassin Gabriel Alon, involving, in this case, his 52 00:03:50,036 --> 00:03:54,356 Speaker 1: pursuit of the dastardly Palestinian terrorist Tarik. It's one of 53 00:03:54,716 --> 00:03:58,676 Speaker 1: my favorite books ever. And I mean, I don't think 54 00:03:58,756 --> 00:04:02,756 Speaker 1: any father ever has been more proud of his daughter 55 00:04:04,316 --> 00:04:08,876 Speaker 1: than I was at that moment. But as I said, 56 00:04:08,916 --> 00:04:12,356 Speaker 1: it's stories about the police that concern us today, because 57 00:04:12,716 --> 00:04:15,756 Speaker 1: I think that stories about the police have not been 58 00:04:15,796 --> 00:04:19,876 Speaker 1: given nearly the kind of close cultural scrutiny that they deserve, 59 00:04:20,516 --> 00:04:25,236 Speaker 1: which makes no sense because the attitude of popular culture 60 00:04:25,876 --> 00:04:30,516 Speaker 1: towards the police is really, really weird. So, there are 61 00:04:30,916 --> 00:04:35,276 Speaker 1: two million truck drivers in the United States. How many 62 00:04:35,476 --> 00:04:40,356 Speaker 1: TV books and movies and novels are there about truck drivers? Right? 63 00:04:40,956 --> 00:04:43,996 Speaker 1: Once in a blue moon? There are three million nurses 64 00:04:44,156 --> 00:04:49,036 Speaker 1: in the United States. How many movies are there about nurses? 65 00:04:49,076 --> 00:04:51,956 Speaker 1: Is there a genre of fiction devoted to nurses? No, 66 00:04:52,076 --> 00:04:54,996 Speaker 1: there is not. There are four million teachers in the 67 00:04:55,116 --> 00:04:58,236 Speaker 1: United States. Teachers are everywhere. There must be a ton 68 00:04:58,276 --> 00:05:01,716 Speaker 1: of teachers in this room right now. How many teachers 69 00:05:01,716 --> 00:05:04,436 Speaker 1: do you know personally? I'm sure all of us. The 70 00:05:04,476 --> 00:05:07,756 Speaker 1: list is this long. But has any sixteen year old 71 00:05:07,836 --> 00:05:11,036 Speaker 1: ever asked his girlfriend to come with him to see 72 00:05:11,036 --> 00:05:16,076 Speaker 1: the new teacher movie at the multiplex? No, the creative 73 00:05:16,156 --> 00:05:20,956 Speaker 1: role was taught by teachers, nurtured by teachers, encouraged by teachers. 74 00:05:20,956 --> 00:05:22,996 Speaker 1: But they don't want to tell us stories about teachers. 75 00:05:23,396 --> 00:05:26,876 Speaker 1: They want to tell us stories about cops. There are 76 00:05:26,916 --> 00:05:30,076 Speaker 1: only seven hundred thousand police officers in this country, but 77 00:05:30,156 --> 00:05:35,036 Speaker 1: they are massively overrepresented in the culture. My guess is 78 00:05:35,076 --> 00:05:38,836 Speaker 1: that almost everyone in this room can name way more 79 00:05:39,196 --> 00:05:43,156 Speaker 1: fictional police officers than they can name real police officers. 80 00:05:43,796 --> 00:05:47,276 Speaker 1: Have you ever heard a real police officer refer to 81 00:05:47,356 --> 00:05:50,836 Speaker 1: a purp? Have you ever heard a real police officer 82 00:05:51,156 --> 00:05:53,636 Speaker 1: talk about a cold case. Have you ever heard a 83 00:05:53,676 --> 00:05:56,876 Speaker 1: real police officer say you have the right to remain silent. 84 00:05:57,756 --> 00:06:00,236 Speaker 1: Have you ever heard a real police officer say of 85 00:06:00,316 --> 00:06:04,156 Speaker 1: his partner, if you're going in there, I'm going in 86 00:06:04,156 --> 00:06:08,596 Speaker 1: there with you too. Or hold on, Jimmy, just hold on. 87 00:06:09,356 --> 00:06:15,276 Speaker 1: Remember when we were rookies together, Jimmy, No, no, no. 88 00:06:17,356 --> 00:06:20,996 Speaker 1: Virtually everything we know about the police comes from the 89 00:06:21,036 --> 00:06:27,636 Speaker 1: movies and television and novels. Right, martians currently circling the 90 00:06:27,716 --> 00:06:30,836 Speaker 1: United States in a hot air balloon. If I'm sorry, 91 00:06:31,076 --> 00:06:35,036 Speaker 1: If one of those Martians currently circulating the United States 92 00:06:35,076 --> 00:06:37,916 Speaker 1: in a hot air balloon ever gets a Netflix subscription, 93 00:06:38,396 --> 00:06:40,596 Speaker 1: they will say, my god, we appear to have stumbled 94 00:06:41,196 --> 00:06:43,476 Speaker 1: on a country of people running around in tight blue 95 00:06:43,556 --> 00:06:47,956 Speaker 1: uniforms and wearing aviator classes. So today I want to 96 00:06:47,956 --> 00:06:51,876 Speaker 1: ask the question, what have we learned from our immersion 97 00:06:51,996 --> 00:06:55,076 Speaker 1: in all these police procedurals and crime novels, and what 98 00:06:55,116 --> 00:06:58,716 Speaker 1: are the social consequences of that learning? Which is an 99 00:06:58,716 --> 00:07:02,276 Speaker 1: important question, because I think all of those crime books 100 00:07:02,476 --> 00:07:06,996 Speaker 1: and movies have really really screwed us up. Okay, let's 101 00:07:07,036 --> 00:07:09,796 Speaker 1: begin with Ed McMain. Now, for those of you who 102 00:07:09,836 --> 00:07:12,036 Speaker 1: may not be familiar with Ed McBain, he was, in 103 00:07:12,076 --> 00:07:16,116 Speaker 1: the postwar years, one of America's most popular mystery writers. 104 00:07:16,476 --> 00:07:20,556 Speaker 1: He wrote police Procedurals about a fictional eighty seventh precinct, 105 00:07:21,516 --> 00:07:25,876 Speaker 1: and the officers in his precinct were all young men. 106 00:07:26,516 --> 00:07:29,316 Speaker 1: They were all had very pretty wives, they were all 107 00:07:29,356 --> 00:07:33,596 Speaker 1: happily married. They all got along wonderfully. They worked together well. 108 00:07:34,076 --> 00:07:36,036 Speaker 1: And I want to read to you from one of 109 00:07:36,076 --> 00:07:39,156 Speaker 1: the novels in that series, called The Killer's Wedge, and 110 00:07:39,156 --> 00:07:43,196 Speaker 1: it's about one of the officers in the eighty seventh precinct, 111 00:07:43,236 --> 00:07:46,956 Speaker 1: Cotton Hawes, who's just been transferred in from another precinct, 112 00:07:47,756 --> 00:07:50,316 Speaker 1: and the eighty seventh is in a bad part of town, 113 00:07:50,396 --> 00:07:52,356 Speaker 1: and he initially has all kinds of doubts about what 114 00:07:52,396 --> 00:07:54,836 Speaker 1: it would mean to work a poor part of town. 115 00:07:55,516 --> 00:07:58,876 Speaker 1: So this is Ed McBain talking about how Cotton Hawes 116 00:07:58,916 --> 00:08:02,636 Speaker 1: is making sense of his experience. He had learned that 117 00:08:02,636 --> 00:08:05,476 Speaker 1: the people of the slums were only people. They enjoyed 118 00:08:05,516 --> 00:08:08,076 Speaker 1: the same pleasures he did, and they suffered a great 119 00:08:08,076 --> 00:08:11,556 Speaker 1: many misfortunes would never have to suffer. They wanted love, 120 00:08:11,596 --> 00:08:14,196 Speaker 1: and they wanted respect, And the walls of a tenement 121 00:08:14,236 --> 00:08:17,356 Speaker 1: did not necessarily become the cage of an animal. He 122 00:08:17,396 --> 00:08:20,276 Speaker 1: had learned this from the men of the squad. He 123 00:08:20,316 --> 00:08:22,636 Speaker 1: had seen each and every one of them in action. 124 00:08:23,716 --> 00:08:26,356 Speaker 1: Then he goes on, but he was surprised to learn 125 00:08:26,356 --> 00:08:28,316 Speaker 1: that the men of the eighty seventh clung to another 126 00:08:28,396 --> 00:08:31,516 Speaker 1: concept which in no way limited the effectiveness of their 127 00:08:31,556 --> 00:08:35,676 Speaker 1: law enforcement. That concept was fairness. And within this concept 128 00:08:35,836 --> 00:08:38,196 Speaker 1: they knew when to get tough and when to understand. 129 00:08:38,596 --> 00:08:42,516 Speaker 1: They did not automatically equate slum dwellers with criminals. A 130 00:08:42,556 --> 00:08:46,196 Speaker 1: thief was a thief, but a person was a person. 131 00:08:47,156 --> 00:08:52,236 Speaker 1: Now this is eight remarkably idealized view of law enforcement, right. 132 00:08:52,676 --> 00:08:54,556 Speaker 1: I mean, let me give you another example from the 133 00:08:54,556 --> 00:08:58,156 Speaker 1: same era, eighteen fifties, which is, of course, the television 134 00:08:58,196 --> 00:09:02,436 Speaker 1: show Dragnet, created by Jack Webb. At its height, Dragnet 135 00:09:02,716 --> 00:09:07,116 Speaker 1: is an astonishingly popular television show. At one point of 136 00:09:07,156 --> 00:09:11,036 Speaker 1: the twenty seven million American homes with televisions, sixteen million 137 00:09:11,076 --> 00:09:14,676 Speaker 1: will be tuned to Dragnet. On Thursday nights when it ran, 138 00:09:14,716 --> 00:09:19,716 Speaker 1: which is a number that has never been approximated since 139 00:09:20,796 --> 00:09:23,236 Speaker 1: it's an insane number. And Dragnet is a show about 140 00:09:23,276 --> 00:09:27,636 Speaker 1: the LPD, and it's the story of a group of dispassionate, 141 00:09:28,156 --> 00:09:33,276 Speaker 1: unbelievably professional, highly competent police officers. One of my favorite 142 00:09:33,356 --> 00:09:38,116 Speaker 1: Dragnet episodes involved Joe Friday, who is the hero of Dragnet, 143 00:09:38,476 --> 00:09:40,756 Speaker 1: arresting a woman for a crime and at the end 144 00:09:40,796 --> 00:09:46,156 Speaker 1: of the episode, the woman he arrests thanks him for 145 00:09:46,276 --> 00:09:51,876 Speaker 1: arresting her, which when has this ever happened in real 146 00:09:51,916 --> 00:09:56,236 Speaker 1: life ever? But it happened in Dragnet. And you know, 147 00:09:56,436 --> 00:09:58,636 Speaker 1: you could make a list of the if you make 148 00:09:58,636 --> 00:10:00,556 Speaker 1: a list of it's a very fun exercise of the 149 00:10:00,596 --> 00:10:04,236 Speaker 1: tops the five most influential television shows of all time 150 00:10:04,356 --> 00:10:09,076 Speaker 1: right sixty minutes. Probably The Real World, which kind of 151 00:10:09,156 --> 00:10:13,796 Speaker 1: invents reality TV, probably put The Cosby Show on there 152 00:10:13,956 --> 00:10:17,676 Speaker 1: for its influence on race relations. But it absolutely is 153 00:10:17,756 --> 00:10:19,756 Speaker 1: the case that Dragnet is one of the five most 154 00:10:19,996 --> 00:10:23,716 Speaker 1: influential and important television shows of all time. And it 155 00:10:23,756 --> 00:10:26,636 Speaker 1: belongs in that list because what it does is it 156 00:10:26,676 --> 00:10:30,836 Speaker 1: represents the first time on television that the same idea 157 00:10:30,876 --> 00:10:35,236 Speaker 1: that Ed McBain has is put forth, and which is 158 00:10:35,276 --> 00:10:39,036 Speaker 1: this notion that the police are good at what they do. Right. 159 00:10:39,476 --> 00:10:41,876 Speaker 1: I'm quoting here from a Time magazine article on Dragnet 160 00:10:41,876 --> 00:10:45,476 Speaker 1: when it first became a hit. The flood of Dragnet 161 00:10:45,836 --> 00:10:48,756 Speaker 1: fan mail suggests that the US completely forgets that it 162 00:10:48,796 --> 00:10:52,516 Speaker 1: is a nation of incipient cop haters when its eyes 163 00:10:52,556 --> 00:10:55,516 Speaker 1: are glued on web show, that it has gained a 164 00:10:55,556 --> 00:10:59,836 Speaker 1: new appreciation of the underpaid, long suffering ordinary policemen, and 165 00:10:59,876 --> 00:11:03,276 Speaker 1: in many cases, its first rudimentary understanding of real life 166 00:11:03,356 --> 00:11:08,076 Speaker 1: law enforcement. So this is Time Magazine in the nineteen fifties, 167 00:11:08,476 --> 00:11:11,876 Speaker 1: when it was the embodiment of Middle America, describing the 168 00:11:11,996 --> 00:11:16,956 Speaker 1: United States as a nation of incipient cop haters. You know, 169 00:11:16,996 --> 00:11:19,276 Speaker 1: today when we think of cop paters, we think of 170 00:11:19,356 --> 00:11:24,796 Speaker 1: you know, progressives, radicalized activists, civil rights zealots. You know, 171 00:11:25,636 --> 00:11:29,916 Speaker 1: back then, Time Magazine is saying America, Middle America were 172 00:11:29,916 --> 00:11:34,076 Speaker 1: the cop haters until people like Ed McBain and Dragon 173 00:11:34,196 --> 00:11:40,436 Speaker 1: Kim along and convinced Americans that their perception of law 174 00:11:40,516 --> 00:11:45,556 Speaker 1: enforcement was wrong. Right. Those shows represent a massive narrative innovation. 175 00:11:46,196 --> 00:11:49,116 Speaker 1: They introduced Americas to an idea that had never occurred 176 00:11:49,156 --> 00:11:51,276 Speaker 1: to them before, and that is the idea of the 177 00:11:51,356 --> 00:11:56,556 Speaker 1: excellent police officer. More on the taxonomy of the modern 178 00:11:56,596 --> 00:12:14,636 Speaker 1: mystery story in a moment. Now back to my speech 179 00:12:15,036 --> 00:12:23,076 Speaker 1: on the taxonomy of police storytelling. Now, this is, of course, 180 00:12:23,116 --> 00:12:27,076 Speaker 1: not the only way that the popular culture represents law enforcement. 181 00:12:27,396 --> 00:12:31,876 Speaker 1: Before Dragon came along, the dominant narrative mode was the Western. 182 00:12:32,436 --> 00:12:35,436 Speaker 1: And what is the Western? It's the parable about the 183 00:12:35,476 --> 00:12:40,436 Speaker 1: consequences of the absence of institutional authority. What do you 184 00:12:40,596 --> 00:12:43,396 Speaker 1: do in your little town on the plains when there 185 00:12:43,436 --> 00:12:47,876 Speaker 1: is no police department. Well, ordinary citizens, possessed of no 186 00:12:47,996 --> 00:12:50,796 Speaker 1: more than their own courage and a six shooter, have 187 00:12:50,916 --> 00:12:54,836 Speaker 1: to restore order on their own. Now, alongside that, you 188 00:12:54,916 --> 00:12:58,876 Speaker 1: had the rise in fiction of the private detective. Herkilpoio 189 00:12:59,236 --> 00:13:03,356 Speaker 1: Sherlock Hoomb's Philip Marlowe Angela Lansbury in Murders, she wrote, 190 00:13:03,596 --> 00:13:07,076 Speaker 1: and what is the prevailing view of law enforcement in 191 00:13:07,156 --> 00:13:10,036 Speaker 1: the world of the private detective? It is that the 192 00:13:10,156 --> 00:13:15,436 Speaker 1: police are present, but they're incompetent. They can only catch 193 00:13:15,556 --> 00:13:19,196 Speaker 1: bad guys with the help of talented outsiders. Right, babamitters, 194 00:13:19,756 --> 00:13:22,796 Speaker 1: If you've read your Sholacombs, you know all about Jola Colmes' 195 00:13:23,196 --> 00:13:28,596 Speaker 1: long relationship with Inspector Lestrade of Scotland Yard. Lestrade is honest, 196 00:13:28,876 --> 00:13:32,596 Speaker 1: he's dogged, he's hard working, but he lacks imagination and 197 00:13:32,636 --> 00:13:35,196 Speaker 1: he can't solve a crime to save his life. And 198 00:13:35,236 --> 00:13:38,476 Speaker 1: there's a moment in the adventure in the Adventures of 199 00:13:38,476 --> 00:13:42,396 Speaker 1: the Six Napoleons in nineteen hundred when we have this 200 00:13:42,436 --> 00:13:46,876 Speaker 1: passage Lestrade is addressing Holmes after Holmes has just done 201 00:13:46,916 --> 00:13:49,956 Speaker 1: one of his spectacular feats of deduction and figured out 202 00:13:49,956 --> 00:13:54,356 Speaker 1: who the real criminal is, and Lestre says, we are 203 00:13:54,356 --> 00:13:56,796 Speaker 1: not jealous of you at Scotland Yard, No, sir, we 204 00:13:56,836 --> 00:13:59,756 Speaker 1: are very proud of you. And if you come down tomorrow, 205 00:13:59,996 --> 00:14:02,436 Speaker 1: there's not a man from the oldest inspector to the 206 00:14:02,436 --> 00:14:05,476 Speaker 1: youngest constable who wouldn't be glad to shake you by 207 00:14:05,476 --> 00:14:09,676 Speaker 1: the hand. So at Scotland Yard they are under absolutely 208 00:14:09,716 --> 00:14:14,156 Speaker 1: no illusion about their own ability, right. They know Holmes 209 00:14:14,276 --> 00:14:16,956 Speaker 1: is better than they are. They know that they're useless 210 00:14:16,996 --> 00:14:19,516 Speaker 1: at this task of crime solving, and that the guy 211 00:14:19,516 --> 00:14:22,196 Speaker 1: with the pipe and the crazy hat from Baker Street 212 00:14:22,396 --> 00:14:24,436 Speaker 1: is the only way they're going to keep the criminals 213 00:14:24,476 --> 00:14:27,716 Speaker 1: of London under control. Same thing in Agatha Christie's her 214 00:14:27,796 --> 00:14:31,436 Speaker 1: kil Paro novels. Right, her kile Paro is solving crime 215 00:14:31,476 --> 00:14:36,236 Speaker 1: after crime to the extent the police ever show up. Right, 216 00:14:37,076 --> 00:14:39,156 Speaker 1: when they show up, they have no idea what's going on. 217 00:14:39,476 --> 00:14:41,916 Speaker 1: And he looks at them, our little Belgian with the 218 00:14:41,996 --> 00:14:45,676 Speaker 1: mustaches looks at the police with absolute contempt because he's 219 00:14:45,716 --> 00:14:48,836 Speaker 1: the only one who can ever finger the bad guy. Right. 220 00:14:49,556 --> 00:14:55,396 Speaker 1: So we have stories about highly competent cops, and for 221 00:14:55,436 --> 00:14:59,556 Speaker 1: the sake of argument, let's call those Easterns. We have 222 00:14:59,636 --> 00:15:04,156 Speaker 1: stories about absent cops. Let's call those Westerns, right, they 223 00:15:04,156 --> 00:15:09,756 Speaker 1: are called Westerns. And we have stories about incompetent cops. 224 00:15:09,796 --> 00:15:14,676 Speaker 1: And let's call those northerns, which only leaves the southern. 225 00:15:14,876 --> 00:15:18,876 Speaker 1: So what's the Southern. Well, the Southern is the narrative 226 00:15:18,956 --> 00:15:21,676 Speaker 1: of the police and authority as malignant. 227 00:15:22,236 --> 00:15:22,396 Speaker 2: Right. 228 00:15:22,476 --> 00:15:26,796 Speaker 1: Think about the great Brian de Palmer movie The Untouchables, 229 00:15:26,836 --> 00:15:30,156 Speaker 1: with Kevin Costner playing the role of elliot Ness, Right, 230 00:15:30,156 --> 00:15:34,196 Speaker 1: the incorruptible Chicago District Attorney elliot Ness who goes on 231 00:15:34,276 --> 00:15:37,116 Speaker 1: his crusade against the mob during the heart of Prohibition. 232 00:15:37,556 --> 00:15:41,436 Speaker 1: The reason it matters that Ness is incorruptible is that 233 00:15:41,556 --> 00:15:46,036 Speaker 1: all around him. The police of Chicago are corruptible, right. 234 00:15:46,116 --> 00:15:50,436 Speaker 1: They're not absent, they're not incompetent, They're not deaft and professional. No, 235 00:15:50,756 --> 00:15:53,796 Speaker 1: they have been seduced by the criminality that they're supposed 236 00:15:53,796 --> 00:15:57,396 Speaker 1: to contain. They are indistinguishable from the bad guys. That's 237 00:15:57,396 --> 00:16:00,716 Speaker 1: what a Southern is, right. So these are the four 238 00:16:00,876 --> 00:16:09,916 Speaker 1: kinds of police stories. Excellence, absence, incompetence, corruption, And this 239 00:16:09,996 --> 00:16:12,396 Speaker 1: is the first. Here's the first of my claims. I 240 00:16:12,436 --> 00:16:16,796 Speaker 1: think that every single example of a crime novel or 241 00:16:16,836 --> 00:16:20,396 Speaker 1: a police procedural falls into one of these four categories 242 00:16:20,796 --> 00:16:25,436 Speaker 1: without exception. So let's explore this. I assume some of 243 00:16:25,476 --> 00:16:29,156 Speaker 1: you have read the Lee Child Jack Reacher series, and 244 00:16:29,196 --> 00:16:32,876 Speaker 1: if you haven't, you need to start right after this. 245 00:16:33,516 --> 00:16:35,956 Speaker 1: The talk is over. I once said a back of 246 00:16:35,956 --> 00:16:39,036 Speaker 1: the envelope calculation based on the very large sample of 247 00:16:39,116 --> 00:16:42,116 Speaker 1: Jack Reacher novels that I've read, which, as it follows, 248 00:16:42,836 --> 00:16:49,596 Speaker 1: Reacher kills on average twelve bad guys per book. There 249 00:16:49,596 --> 00:16:53,556 Speaker 1: are twenty six Reacher books, meaning that he has murdered 250 00:16:53,556 --> 00:16:56,516 Speaker 1: two hundred and eighty four people over the course of 251 00:16:56,556 --> 00:16:59,396 Speaker 1: his life. He is the most prolific serial killer in 252 00:16:59,476 --> 00:17:04,396 Speaker 1: American fiction and yet twenty six years after Jack Reacher 253 00:17:04,436 --> 00:17:08,116 Speaker 1: first appeared in The Killing Floor, he remains at large. 254 00:17:08,916 --> 00:17:11,876 Speaker 1: This is pretty good evidence that the police are absent 255 00:17:12,676 --> 00:17:17,196 Speaker 1: in the Reacher series, the Reacher novels, the Westerns. Only 256 00:17:17,236 --> 00:17:18,876 Speaker 1: in the Western can you get away with killing two 257 00:17:18,916 --> 00:17:22,236 Speaker 1: hundred and four people and remain a large right for 258 00:17:22,356 --> 00:17:26,156 Speaker 1: the Northern For the incompetent police. We have more examples 259 00:17:26,316 --> 00:17:29,916 Speaker 1: than we can count. But the one that I remember 260 00:17:29,956 --> 00:17:31,876 Speaker 1: from my childhood, and many of you are old enough 261 00:17:31,956 --> 00:17:35,796 Speaker 1: to remember this as well, is Hogan's Heroes, the legendary 262 00:17:35,916 --> 00:17:39,476 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies sitcom. For those of you who are too 263 00:17:39,516 --> 00:17:43,276 Speaker 1: young to remember Hogan's Heroes, it was a hugely successful 264 00:17:43,276 --> 00:17:46,276 Speaker 1: TV show set in a German prisoner of war camp 265 00:17:46,396 --> 00:17:49,476 Speaker 1: during the Second World War, in which the comic foils 266 00:17:49,516 --> 00:17:57,116 Speaker 1: of the captured German soldiers were Nazi prison guards. Don't 267 00:17:57,116 --> 00:18:00,036 Speaker 1: even try pitching that show today, by the way, because 268 00:18:01,676 --> 00:18:04,196 Speaker 1: and why do we laugh at the Nazis, if memory 269 00:18:04,196 --> 00:18:10,796 Speaker 1: serves Colonel Klink and Sergeant Schultz right, Not because they 270 00:18:10,796 --> 00:18:19,276 Speaker 1: are malicious or vicious, not because they are ineffective or indifferent. No, 271 00:18:19,636 --> 00:18:23,276 Speaker 1: we laugh at them because they're inapt. Because Clink is 272 00:18:23,316 --> 00:18:26,956 Speaker 1: a self important fool, because Schultz is a clown who 273 00:18:26,956 --> 00:18:30,876 Speaker 1: says I know nothing, I see nothing. Right. The literary 274 00:18:30,916 --> 00:18:35,796 Speaker 1: conceit of Hogan's heroes is that is that the Nazis 275 00:18:35,796 --> 00:18:39,356 Speaker 1: were the three Stooges, which is a northern That's what 276 00:18:39,396 --> 00:18:43,756 Speaker 1: it is. Right. Then there's the Southern authority as malignant 277 00:18:43,756 --> 00:18:46,396 Speaker 1: and corrupt. Who is the king of the Southern Well, 278 00:18:46,436 --> 00:18:48,836 Speaker 1: I think it's obvious if you think about it, it's 279 00:18:49,516 --> 00:18:53,276 Speaker 1: John Grisham. The plot of every John Grisham novel ever, 280 00:18:53,356 --> 00:18:56,076 Speaker 1: and I say this as someone who loves John Grisham 281 00:18:56,116 --> 00:19:01,196 Speaker 1: like a brother, is about the subversion of institutional authority. 282 00:19:01,636 --> 00:19:05,396 Speaker 1: How does the Pelican Brief end? The richest man in 283 00:19:05,396 --> 00:19:09,196 Speaker 1: the country is under indictment, as are his closest aids 284 00:19:09,236 --> 00:19:11,476 Speaker 1: and all of his lawyers. The chief of staff to 285 00:19:11,516 --> 00:19:14,516 Speaker 1: the President of the United States has resigned, and the 286 00:19:14,556 --> 00:19:19,116 Speaker 1: President himself has wisely decided not to seek a second term. 287 00:19:19,436 --> 00:19:22,316 Speaker 1: In the firm, our hero, played in the movie version 288 00:19:22,316 --> 00:19:25,436 Speaker 1: by Tom Cruise, discovers that the biggest client of his 289 00:19:25,516 --> 00:19:30,996 Speaker 1: law firm is a mafia crime family. The FBI gets involved, 290 00:19:30,996 --> 00:19:33,196 Speaker 1: and we think the movie is going to end with 291 00:19:33,236 --> 00:19:38,836 Speaker 1: the FBI helping Tom Cruise resolve the matter. But no, 292 00:19:39,476 --> 00:19:41,876 Speaker 1: what does our hero do. He ends up making a 293 00:19:41,956 --> 00:19:44,956 Speaker 1: deal with the mafia crime family and turning his back 294 00:19:45,076 --> 00:19:49,436 Speaker 1: on the FBI. Why because the FBI double crosses him. 295 00:19:49,676 --> 00:19:52,676 Speaker 1: Of course they do, right, this is a Grisham novel. Right, 296 00:19:52,916 --> 00:19:56,316 Speaker 1: the law is less trustworthy than a mafia crime family. 297 00:19:57,716 --> 00:20:00,956 Speaker 1: I have argued long, at hard over the years to 298 00:20:01,436 --> 00:20:05,236 Speaker 1: very deaf ears that Grisham is the most important literary 299 00:20:05,236 --> 00:20:09,396 Speaker 1: figure of our generation. And I'm not joking. I mean, 300 00:20:10,636 --> 00:20:13,476 Speaker 1: why did so many Americans think the twenty twenty two 301 00:20:13,556 --> 00:20:18,356 Speaker 1: election was stolen, that truckloads of purloined ballots were ferried 302 00:20:18,356 --> 00:20:21,796 Speaker 1: around Philadelphia in the back of pickup trucks, that voting 303 00:20:21,836 --> 00:20:27,876 Speaker 1: machines magically preferred Democrats to Republicans. Because these are the 304 00:20:27,956 --> 00:20:29,756 Speaker 1: kinds of things that happen all the time in John 305 00:20:29,796 --> 00:20:33,916 Speaker 1: grisham novels. Right, And given that John Grisham has sold 306 00:20:33,956 --> 00:20:38,556 Speaker 1: three hundred million books and has had twenty eight consecutive 307 00:20:38,596 --> 00:20:41,756 Speaker 1: number one New York Times bestsellers, it is a statistical 308 00:20:42,276 --> 00:20:45,196 Speaker 1: certainty that a good majority of the people wearing mega 309 00:20:45,236 --> 00:20:50,156 Speaker 1: hats and storming the Capitol on January sixth read a 310 00:20:50,276 --> 00:20:55,716 Speaker 1: Grisham book every night before bedtime, after of course being 311 00:20:55,756 --> 00:21:01,836 Speaker 1: inoculated with their daily dose of Tucker cars. Let's still 312 00:21:01,876 --> 00:21:05,436 Speaker 1: more difficult example. Some of you may have seen the 313 00:21:05,596 --> 00:21:11,036 Speaker 1: new Apple TV series Slow Horse, based on the mickhern 314 00:21:11,476 --> 00:21:15,796 Speaker 1: Spy novels. The show is about an intelligence officer played 315 00:21:15,836 --> 00:21:19,276 Speaker 1: by Gary Oldham who has been exiled to a decrepit 316 00:21:19,556 --> 00:21:23,956 Speaker 1: outbuilding called slow House and along with all the other misfits, 317 00:21:23,996 --> 00:21:27,676 Speaker 1: all the other rejects, screw ups, weirdos who can no 318 00:21:27,716 --> 00:21:32,196 Speaker 1: longer make it within I five headquarters. So what's that? Well, 319 00:21:32,236 --> 00:21:36,476 Speaker 1: that that sounds like a Northern right, It's an authority 320 00:21:36,516 --> 00:21:37,196 Speaker 1: is incompetent. 321 00:21:37,316 --> 00:21:37,516 Speaker 3: Right. 322 00:21:37,596 --> 00:21:40,156 Speaker 1: We have a group of screw ups, but then the 323 00:21:40,236 --> 00:21:42,636 Speaker 1: slow House crew go on to solve some of the 324 00:21:42,676 --> 00:21:46,876 Speaker 1: most pressing national security crises of the day, which makes 325 00:21:46,916 --> 00:21:50,356 Speaker 1: it sound like an Eastern like a dragnet and Ed 326 00:21:50,436 --> 00:21:55,916 Speaker 1: McBain like uber competent authority. So it doesn't fit, right, 327 00:21:56,076 --> 00:22:01,716 Speaker 1: Doesn't that invalidate my theory? No? No, no, Slow Horses 328 00:22:02,076 --> 00:22:05,796 Speaker 1: is just a hybrid, right. It's hybrids have been around forever. 329 00:22:06,036 --> 00:22:09,556 Speaker 1: If you remember how many people read Scarlet Pimpernel novels 330 00:22:09,596 --> 00:22:12,596 Speaker 1: growing up. What is the scarlet pimpernel. He is the 331 00:22:12,596 --> 00:22:16,756 Speaker 1: nobleman who everyone thinks is stupid but is simultaneously outwitting 332 00:22:16,796 --> 00:22:17,876 Speaker 1: all of the evil French. 333 00:22:18,236 --> 00:22:18,396 Speaker 2: Right. 334 00:22:18,596 --> 00:22:22,756 Speaker 1: Or think about Columbo, right, the magnificent nineteen seventies television 335 00:22:22,796 --> 00:22:26,836 Speaker 1: detective series, but where Peter Falk pretends to be a 336 00:22:26,876 --> 00:22:30,996 Speaker 1: bumbling fool but always gets the bad guy in the end. 337 00:22:31,636 --> 00:22:39,236 Speaker 1: These are Easterns masquerading as Northerns. They're Northeasterns. There are 338 00:22:39,276 --> 00:22:39,916 Speaker 1: no easters. 339 00:22:40,476 --> 00:22:40,676 Speaker 3: Right. 340 00:22:41,356 --> 00:22:44,836 Speaker 1: What does Hamlet say to Horatio? There are more things 341 00:22:44,996 --> 00:22:48,556 Speaker 1: in heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy. 342 00:22:48,756 --> 00:22:52,636 Speaker 1: That does not apply to my taxonomy. Okay, Why am 343 00:22:52,676 --> 00:22:55,716 Speaker 1: I going on and on about the four categories? Because 344 00:22:55,716 --> 00:22:59,756 Speaker 1: I think they're deeply problematic, and I think they distort 345 00:22:59,836 --> 00:23:03,396 Speaker 1: our understanding of what policing is. And here I'm going 346 00:23:03,476 --> 00:23:07,276 Speaker 1: to go on a digression and simultaneously get a little 347 00:23:07,316 --> 00:23:11,516 Speaker 1: bit serious. The father of modern policing was a man 348 00:23:11,596 --> 00:23:15,116 Speaker 1: named Sir Robert Peel, and he founds the Metropolitan Police 349 00:23:15,116 --> 00:23:17,956 Speaker 1: Force in London in eighteen twenty nine, which is the 350 00:23:17,956 --> 00:23:22,036 Speaker 1: first great urban police department. And Peel famously sets out 351 00:23:22,596 --> 00:23:27,396 Speaker 1: nine principles that he thinks ought to govern modern police forces, 352 00:23:27,436 --> 00:23:31,116 Speaker 1: and they are as applicable, if not more applicable, today 353 00:23:31,596 --> 00:23:34,196 Speaker 1: than they were in eighteen twenty nine. They are the 354 00:23:34,236 --> 00:23:37,476 Speaker 1: ten commandments of policing. They're what every police officer is 355 00:23:37,516 --> 00:23:40,876 Speaker 1: taught on the first day of their time at police academy. 356 00:23:41,156 --> 00:23:42,436 Speaker 1: And to give you a flavor, I'm going to read 357 00:23:42,436 --> 00:23:47,156 Speaker 1: a couple of Peel's principles. The ability of the police 358 00:23:47,156 --> 00:23:51,116 Speaker 1: to perform their duties is dependent upon public approval of 359 00:23:51,196 --> 00:23:55,916 Speaker 1: police existence, actions, behavior, and the ability of the police 360 00:23:56,236 --> 00:24:01,836 Speaker 1: to secure and maintain public respect. He's another one. The 361 00:24:01,876 --> 00:24:06,156 Speaker 1: police must secure the willing cooperation of the public in 362 00:24:06,236 --> 00:24:09,356 Speaker 1: voluntary observance of the law to be able to maintain 363 00:24:09,916 --> 00:24:14,596 Speaker 1: and secure public respect. There's another one. The degree of 364 00:24:14,676 --> 00:24:19,316 Speaker 1: cooperation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately 365 00:24:19,556 --> 00:24:22,196 Speaker 1: to the necessity for the use of physical force and 366 00:24:22,236 --> 00:24:26,796 Speaker 1: compulsion in achieving police objectives. And here's the crucial one. 367 00:24:27,396 --> 00:24:30,676 Speaker 1: The police at all times should maintain a relationship with 368 00:24:30,756 --> 00:24:34,716 Speaker 1: the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that 369 00:24:34,756 --> 00:24:38,116 Speaker 1: the police are the public and the public are the police. 370 00:24:38,796 --> 00:24:38,996 Speaker 2: Right. 371 00:24:40,036 --> 00:24:42,236 Speaker 1: What is the word that appears in all of those 372 00:24:42,236 --> 00:24:49,076 Speaker 1: principles as often as police. It's public right, public, public, public. 373 00:24:49,196 --> 00:24:52,276 Speaker 1: The police are the public and the public are the police. 374 00:24:52,636 --> 00:24:55,116 Speaker 1: I would submit to you that that those two sentences 375 00:24:55,116 --> 00:24:57,996 Speaker 1: are one of the most beautiful and essential lines that 376 00:24:58,036 --> 00:25:02,796 Speaker 1: have ever been written about the modern democratic experiment. Now 377 00:25:03,756 --> 00:25:07,916 Speaker 1: where are we today with respect to Peel's principles in America? 378 00:25:08,236 --> 00:25:10,996 Speaker 1: Are we a societ that believes that the people are 379 00:25:11,036 --> 00:25:15,716 Speaker 1: the police and the police are the people? I'm not 380 00:25:15,796 --> 00:25:18,716 Speaker 1: so sure of that. One of the ways, for example, 381 00:25:18,756 --> 00:25:22,636 Speaker 1: that we measure the health and effectiveness of a police 382 00:25:22,636 --> 00:25:26,556 Speaker 1: force is clearance rates. A clearance rate is simply the 383 00:25:26,876 --> 00:25:30,236 Speaker 1: percentage of crimes that are solved by the police, and 384 00:25:30,276 --> 00:25:33,156 Speaker 1: the most important of those, obviously, is the homicide clearance rate. 385 00:25:34,276 --> 00:25:37,756 Speaker 1: And over the last thirty years, the homicide clearance rate 386 00:25:37,876 --> 00:25:40,996 Speaker 1: in this country has been falling, and not by a 387 00:25:41,036 --> 00:25:43,916 Speaker 1: small amount, by a large amount. Thirty years ago it 388 00:25:43,956 --> 00:25:49,916 Speaker 1: was roughly seventy percent. It's now fifty percent. So half 389 00:25:49,956 --> 00:25:53,796 Speaker 1: of all murders committed in the United States go unsolved 390 00:25:54,196 --> 00:25:56,636 Speaker 1: by the police. And by the way, that's an average. 391 00:25:57,036 --> 00:25:58,956 Speaker 1: There are many many places where the clearance rate is 392 00:25:59,036 --> 00:26:02,316 Speaker 1: much lower than that. The clearance rate in Michigan is 393 00:26:02,396 --> 00:26:07,956 Speaker 1: seventeen percent for homicide. In Honolulu it's eighteen percent. It 394 00:26:07,956 --> 00:26:11,116 Speaker 1: also varies by neighborhoo. But if somebody was murdered outside 395 00:26:11,156 --> 00:26:14,276 Speaker 1: of this auditorium here in Tulane, the clearance rate would 396 00:26:14,276 --> 00:26:16,436 Speaker 1: probably be ninety percent, but in the seventh ward it's 397 00:26:16,476 --> 00:26:20,476 Speaker 1: probably I don't know, ten fifteen percent. Right, That is 398 00:26:20,516 --> 00:26:24,636 Speaker 1: a very, very big problem for modern society. In the 399 00:26:24,756 --> 00:26:31,516 Speaker 1: classic formulation of deterrence, deterrence is a function of the certainty, swiftness, 400 00:26:31,996 --> 00:26:35,556 Speaker 1: and severity of punishment. And of those three things, the 401 00:26:35,596 --> 00:26:39,156 Speaker 1: first is the most important. Right, Deterrence is really a 402 00:26:39,156 --> 00:26:42,036 Speaker 1: function of the likelihood of being caught. And if we 403 00:26:42,076 --> 00:26:44,636 Speaker 1: are in a situation where the clearance rates in many 404 00:26:44,716 --> 00:26:49,316 Speaker 1: high crime neighborhoods is less than twenty percent, then that's 405 00:26:49,356 --> 00:26:50,676 Speaker 1: the description of a failed state. 406 00:26:51,316 --> 00:26:51,556 Speaker 2: Right. 407 00:26:52,236 --> 00:26:55,516 Speaker 1: We live in a society now where there are many 408 00:26:55,716 --> 00:27:01,036 Speaker 1: neighborhoods where murderers murder with impunity. Now, why are clearance 409 00:27:01,116 --> 00:27:04,196 Speaker 1: rates falling? It makes no sense that police today are 410 00:27:04,236 --> 00:27:06,756 Speaker 1: better funded, they're better trained than ever before, they have 411 00:27:06,796 --> 00:27:10,516 Speaker 1: more access to technology. There's cameras everywhere. Plus murder rates 412 00:27:10,516 --> 00:27:12,516 Speaker 1: have fallen dramatically over the last thirty years, they have 413 00:27:12,596 --> 00:27:16,116 Speaker 1: less to do. If you watch CSI on television or 414 00:27:16,196 --> 00:27:18,236 Speaker 1: Law and Order, you would think clearance rates would be 415 00:27:18,276 --> 00:27:22,916 Speaker 1: one hundred percent, but they're not. They're low and they're dropping. 416 00:27:23,676 --> 00:27:26,236 Speaker 1: One reason for that is obvious, and that's the rise 417 00:27:26,276 --> 00:27:29,836 Speaker 1: of gun violence. Guns used to be a small percentage 418 00:27:29,876 --> 00:27:33,676 Speaker 1: of homicides. They're now an overwhelming percentage of homicides. And 419 00:27:33,716 --> 00:27:36,076 Speaker 1: a gun crime is a lot harder to solve than 420 00:27:36,596 --> 00:27:39,436 Speaker 1: a knife crime. Right, less physical evidence, the killer can 421 00:27:39,476 --> 00:27:42,876 Speaker 1: be further away. But that's not the real reason. The 422 00:27:42,916 --> 00:27:47,276 Speaker 1: real reason is that the most important factor in solving 423 00:27:47,276 --> 00:27:51,596 Speaker 1: a homicide is the cooperation of the public. You find 424 00:27:51,636 --> 00:27:54,036 Speaker 1: out who pulled the trigger because three people come to 425 00:27:54,076 --> 00:27:56,916 Speaker 1: you and said, I was there, I saw Billy pull 426 00:27:56,996 --> 00:28:00,436 Speaker 1: the trigger. Right. But if those three people don't come forward, 427 00:28:00,716 --> 00:28:03,476 Speaker 1: if they don't trust the police anymore, if they think 428 00:28:03,516 --> 00:28:06,356 Speaker 1: of the police as an occupying force, then you have 429 00:28:06,396 --> 00:28:12,676 Speaker 1: a problem. Remember that those principles from Peel The ability 430 00:28:12,716 --> 00:28:16,476 Speaker 1: of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon 431 00:28:17,036 --> 00:28:22,996 Speaker 1: public approval of police existence, actions, behavior, and the ability 432 00:28:23,036 --> 00:28:26,916 Speaker 1: of the police to secure and maintain public respect. That 433 00:28:27,196 --> 00:28:29,996 Speaker 1: is what we don't have right now. In the most 434 00:28:30,036 --> 00:28:33,756 Speaker 1: recent Gallup poll, only nineteen percent of black adults said 435 00:28:33,756 --> 00:28:36,716 Speaker 1: they were confident they had any confidence or trust in 436 00:28:36,756 --> 00:28:40,596 Speaker 1: the police. The numbers for white Americans are a little 437 00:28:40,596 --> 00:28:43,316 Speaker 1: bit higher, but they are also at historic lows. Right, 438 00:28:43,756 --> 00:28:46,236 Speaker 1: how do you solve a homicide in the community where 439 00:28:46,276 --> 00:28:50,876 Speaker 1: eight out of ten people don't trust you. What Robert 440 00:28:51,036 --> 00:28:55,196 Speaker 1: Peel said two hundred years ago is absolutely correct. The 441 00:28:55,436 --> 00:28:59,316 Speaker 1: police cannot do their job without the support of the public. 442 00:28:59,996 --> 00:29:04,156 Speaker 1: Right now, you might say, well, this collapse in trust 443 00:29:04,236 --> 00:29:07,396 Speaker 1: makes perfect sense. Think about the last ten years. We 444 00:29:07,436 --> 00:29:12,316 Speaker 1: had Ferguson, we had George Floyd, we just had tire 445 00:29:12,436 --> 00:29:14,916 Speaker 1: Nichols On and on. Right, all of these stories of 446 00:29:15,076 --> 00:29:19,756 Speaker 1: kinds of things that would naturally undermine our faith in 447 00:29:19,916 --> 00:29:24,476 Speaker 1: law enforcement. But that still doesn't solve the puzzle, right 448 00:29:24,596 --> 00:29:27,916 Speaker 1: because in every way this kind of problem was worse 449 00:29:28,516 --> 00:29:31,676 Speaker 1: fifty years ago than it is today. Would you rather 450 00:29:31,716 --> 00:29:35,156 Speaker 1: have the police Department of Birmingham, Alabama in nineteen sixty 451 00:29:35,196 --> 00:29:39,316 Speaker 1: three or the Police Department of Birmingham, Alabama today? Would 452 00:29:39,356 --> 00:29:42,276 Speaker 1: you rather have the police Department of Los Angeles in 453 00:29:42,316 --> 00:29:44,836 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty three, when they wouldn't even let black officers 454 00:29:44,916 --> 00:29:47,916 Speaker 1: ride in the same squad cars as white officers than 455 00:29:47,956 --> 00:29:51,316 Speaker 1: the LAPD of today. Now, I mean, I could go on. 456 00:29:51,436 --> 00:29:55,716 Speaker 1: I mean, in Atlanta in nineteen forty eight, they hire 457 00:29:55,756 --> 00:30:00,156 Speaker 1: their first black police officers, group of eight men. They 458 00:30:00,196 --> 00:30:03,516 Speaker 1: call them the YMCA eight. Why because they won't let 459 00:30:03,596 --> 00:30:07,036 Speaker 1: them into the precincts. They make them work out of 460 00:30:07,116 --> 00:30:14,396 Speaker 1: the basement of the colored downtown. Right, and they get 461 00:30:14,396 --> 00:30:16,196 Speaker 1: so much abuse that half of them quit within the 462 00:30:16,196 --> 00:30:20,196 Speaker 1: first year. Abuse from their fellow white police officers. They're 463 00:30:20,196 --> 00:30:22,316 Speaker 1: not allowed to drive squad cars, They're not allowed to 464 00:30:22,436 --> 00:30:25,956 Speaker 1: arrest white people, they're not allowed to patrol white neighborhoods. 465 00:30:26,596 --> 00:30:29,076 Speaker 1: White officers would gang up against them and falsely report 466 00:30:29,116 --> 00:30:32,476 Speaker 1: them for drinking on the job. White officers tried to 467 00:30:32,596 --> 00:30:35,396 Speaker 1: run down a couple of them in the street. One 468 00:30:35,436 --> 00:30:38,556 Speaker 1: white officer in Atlanta put up bounty on the head 469 00:30:38,596 --> 00:30:40,716 Speaker 1: of the black officers, saying he would give two hundred 470 00:30:40,716 --> 00:30:44,596 Speaker 1: dollars to anyone who killed one of those officers. Now, 471 00:30:45,396 --> 00:30:48,396 Speaker 1: those are good reasons not to trust a police department, right, 472 00:30:48,916 --> 00:30:52,796 Speaker 1: really good reasons. Not today, not today, when the Atlanta 473 00:30:52,836 --> 00:30:56,436 Speaker 1: Police Department is world's better and different from that, you 474 00:30:56,476 --> 00:30:59,556 Speaker 1: would have thought there was a crisis in clearance rates 475 00:30:59,596 --> 00:31:14,276 Speaker 1: back then, not now, We'll be right back. You would 476 00:31:14,276 --> 00:31:16,756 Speaker 1: have thought that in every way we would be better 477 00:31:16,796 --> 00:31:20,596 Speaker 1: off today than we were fifty years ago. So what's 478 00:31:20,596 --> 00:31:21,236 Speaker 1: to blame for this? 479 00:31:21,556 --> 00:31:21,756 Speaker 3: Right? 480 00:31:21,836 --> 00:31:25,276 Speaker 1: This is one of the most profound problems facing our society. 481 00:31:25,636 --> 00:31:28,796 Speaker 1: I think that there are many, many important issues, but 482 00:31:28,836 --> 00:31:31,756 Speaker 1: the one I want to talk about is the influence 483 00:31:32,236 --> 00:31:35,796 Speaker 1: of these four narratives. The first problem with the narratives, 484 00:31:35,796 --> 00:31:38,276 Speaker 1: I think is obvious, and that is that it is 485 00:31:38,316 --> 00:31:41,956 Speaker 1: a dangerous thing to over narrativize a group of people. 486 00:31:42,436 --> 00:31:45,716 Speaker 1: The obvious analogy is the way the popular culture treated 487 00:31:45,756 --> 00:31:48,636 Speaker 1: African Americans in the movies in the first half of 488 00:31:48,676 --> 00:31:51,956 Speaker 1: the twentieth century. There were only three categories of black 489 00:31:51,996 --> 00:31:55,396 Speaker 1: people in the movies in that period. There was the Mammy, 490 00:31:55,556 --> 00:31:59,196 Speaker 1: remember Gone with the Wind, the role played by Hattie McDaniel, 491 00:31:59,636 --> 00:32:03,156 Speaker 1: And that is the big, warm, sassy surrogate mother who 492 00:32:03,236 --> 00:32:07,596 Speaker 1: puts her mistress's children ahead even of her own children, 493 00:32:08,036 --> 00:32:10,516 Speaker 1: and who keeps her mische in line, you know, with 494 00:32:10,636 --> 00:32:11,356 Speaker 1: her straight talk. 495 00:32:11,476 --> 00:32:11,636 Speaker 3: Right. 496 00:32:11,716 --> 00:32:15,596 Speaker 1: That's stereotype number one. Second stereotype was the sambo. What 497 00:32:15,716 --> 00:32:21,356 Speaker 1: is the sambo? The sambo is the childlike passive, deeply 498 00:32:21,476 --> 00:32:25,476 Speaker 1: loyal man servant, right, the uncle Tom. And if you 499 00:32:25,556 --> 00:32:29,116 Speaker 1: were a black actor or actress in Hollywood in the 500 00:32:29,156 --> 00:32:32,556 Speaker 1: first forty years of the twentieth century, those are the 501 00:32:32,556 --> 00:32:34,996 Speaker 1: two roles that were available to you. And the third 502 00:32:35,076 --> 00:32:41,796 Speaker 1: group is the shiftless, devious, untrustworthy, lazy, subversive. Right. The 503 00:32:41,836 --> 00:32:45,396 Speaker 1: screenwriters and the novelists of America put all black people 504 00:32:45,396 --> 00:32:49,356 Speaker 1: into one of those three categories for one hundred years. 505 00:32:50,196 --> 00:32:53,156 Speaker 1: Why because they couldn't be bothered to explore the idea 506 00:32:53,516 --> 00:32:56,636 Speaker 1: that there was as much variety and beauty and complexity 507 00:32:56,676 --> 00:32:59,356 Speaker 1: in black people as they were in white people. A 508 00:32:59,436 --> 00:33:04,036 Speaker 1: narrative is a stereotype. It's a kind of shorthand used 509 00:33:04,076 --> 00:33:09,476 Speaker 1: by writers. And these stereotypes aren't harmless. There's a famous 510 00:33:09,476 --> 00:33:12,516 Speaker 1: study done in the nineteen thirties of ethnic stereotypes where 511 00:33:12,516 --> 00:33:16,436 Speaker 1: a group of psychologists asked thousands of Americans to describe 512 00:33:16,476 --> 00:33:19,036 Speaker 1: what they felt black people were like, and the three 513 00:33:19,116 --> 00:33:23,716 Speaker 1: most popular adjectives used by white people to describe black 514 00:33:23,716 --> 00:33:28,196 Speaker 1: people were superstitious, happy, go lucky, and lazy. And the 515 00:33:28,316 --> 00:33:30,596 Speaker 1: kicko was that most of the white people they talked 516 00:33:30,636 --> 00:33:34,076 Speaker 1: to for that survey didn't know any black people. So 517 00:33:34,156 --> 00:33:36,396 Speaker 1: where do they get those ideas? They got them from 518 00:33:36,476 --> 00:33:40,956 Speaker 1: the movies. Right. So the stereotypes that are put forth 519 00:33:41,076 --> 00:33:45,876 Speaker 1: in popular culture matter. They are the raw material that 520 00:33:45,916 --> 00:33:49,756 Speaker 1: people use to form their attitudes and perspectives about the 521 00:33:49,796 --> 00:33:52,836 Speaker 1: rest of the world. And I really worry that police 522 00:33:52,916 --> 00:33:56,156 Speaker 1: narratives are doing the same thing. They are doing an 523 00:33:56,196 --> 00:34:00,196 Speaker 1: injustice to our understanding of the police. You know, Derek 524 00:34:00,236 --> 00:34:04,036 Speaker 1: Schavan murders George Floyd, and thousands of people take to 525 00:34:04,076 --> 00:34:07,796 Speaker 1: the streets and say, let's defund the police. Right. The 526 00:34:07,836 --> 00:34:14,276 Speaker 1: George Floyd case activated the Southern narrative law enforcement as 527 00:34:14,356 --> 00:34:17,876 Speaker 1: impossibly corrupt and malicious. Our only choice is to shut 528 00:34:17,916 --> 00:34:21,236 Speaker 1: it down. But there's seven hundred thousand police officers in 529 00:34:21,276 --> 00:34:24,636 Speaker 1: this country. How do you possibly label the entire group 530 00:34:24,716 --> 00:34:27,996 Speaker 1: based on the behavior of a small number. You know, 531 00:34:28,036 --> 00:34:32,276 Speaker 1: after the Ruddy King beating thirty years ago that led 532 00:34:32,276 --> 00:34:36,316 Speaker 1: to the Los Angeles Riots, the Los Angeles Police Department 533 00:34:36,396 --> 00:34:39,556 Speaker 1: was thrown into chaos, and they were accused of racial 534 00:34:39,596 --> 00:34:42,716 Speaker 1: bias and insensitivity and turning a blind eyed to misconduct. 535 00:34:43,196 --> 00:34:45,236 Speaker 1: And they had once, of course been the embodiment of 536 00:34:45,276 --> 00:34:49,036 Speaker 1: the Eastern Dragnet was a celebration of the perfection and 537 00:34:49,076 --> 00:34:51,916 Speaker 1: professionalism of the LAPD, and now they were the Southern. 538 00:34:52,036 --> 00:34:54,916 Speaker 1: They were cast as corrupt and malicious, and there was 539 00:34:54,956 --> 00:34:58,596 Speaker 1: a massive investigation that was launched. And what the investigation 540 00:34:58,756 --> 00:35:03,716 Speaker 1: found was that of the eighty five hundred police officers 541 00:35:03,756 --> 00:35:07,476 Speaker 1: in the LAPD, one hundred and eighty three had been 542 00:35:07,956 --> 00:35:12,116 Speaker 1: the a subject of four or more excessive force complaints 543 00:35:12,116 --> 00:35:15,076 Speaker 1: over in the period between nineteen eighty six and nineteen 544 00:35:15,156 --> 00:35:18,916 Speaker 1: ninety Right, so one hundred and eighty three out of 545 00:35:18,996 --> 00:35:21,916 Speaker 1: eighty five hundred forty four of those one hundred and 546 00:35:21,916 --> 00:35:25,316 Speaker 1: eighty three had six or more complaints and sixteen had 547 00:35:25,396 --> 00:35:29,396 Speaker 1: eight or more complaints. The investigation found that the LAPD, 548 00:35:29,436 --> 00:35:32,636 Speaker 1: in other words, had a very small core of really 549 00:35:32,676 --> 00:35:35,556 Speaker 1: bad apples and did a really bad job of identifying 550 00:35:35,556 --> 00:35:38,396 Speaker 1: their bad apples and getting rid of them. That is 551 00:35:38,516 --> 00:35:42,796 Speaker 1: not an Eastern where everyone is perfect. There was one 552 00:35:42,796 --> 00:35:46,996 Speaker 1: officer who had more than sixteen excessive force complaints in 553 00:35:47,036 --> 00:35:49,756 Speaker 1: the previous four years and still had his job. Right, 554 00:35:49,796 --> 00:35:54,036 Speaker 1: that's not dragnet. That's something very different. That's problem. But 555 00:35:54,076 --> 00:35:56,076 Speaker 1: at the same time, that is not the description of 556 00:35:56,076 --> 00:35:59,356 Speaker 1: a Southern It's not a description of an entire department. 557 00:35:59,796 --> 00:36:05,396 Speaker 1: That is malicious and malignant. Right, you cannot call a 558 00:36:05,396 --> 00:36:10,116 Speaker 1: department of eighty five hundred people corrupt and malignant because 559 00:36:10,156 --> 00:36:13,316 Speaker 1: it has forty four really bad apples. So our police 560 00:36:13,396 --> 00:36:17,436 Speaker 1: narratives have made us sloppy. They've made it really hard 561 00:36:17,476 --> 00:36:20,356 Speaker 1: for us to understand the nature of the problem we're facing. 562 00:36:20,876 --> 00:36:24,276 Speaker 1: They blur over the subtleties. You know, you have one 563 00:36:24,356 --> 00:36:27,756 Speaker 1: side saying it's all rotten, and the other watching Dragnet 564 00:36:27,836 --> 00:36:31,116 Speaker 1: and reading Ed McBain and saying, these are noble, courageous 565 00:36:31,116 --> 00:36:34,316 Speaker 1: men doing an impossible job against overwhelming odds. They deserve 566 00:36:34,316 --> 00:36:38,316 Speaker 1: our unqualified to support. Right that neither of those narratives 567 00:36:38,316 --> 00:36:42,236 Speaker 1: are true. How can the people be the police and 568 00:36:42,276 --> 00:36:45,116 Speaker 1: the police be the people when the people don't understand 569 00:36:45,156 --> 00:36:50,556 Speaker 1: who the police are. Problem number one. We don't make 570 00:36:50,596 --> 00:36:53,476 Speaker 1: this mistake with teachers. We don't make it with truck drivers. 571 00:36:53,876 --> 00:36:55,996 Speaker 1: We don't make with nurses. When we hear that the 572 00:36:56,036 --> 00:36:58,836 Speaker 1: teacher is a bad teacher whose students don't learn anything, 573 00:36:59,156 --> 00:37:03,876 Speaker 1: we don't say, oh, man, teaching is broken. Let's defund teaching. Right, 574 00:37:03,996 --> 00:37:06,716 Speaker 1: that's a We just say that's a bad teacher who 575 00:37:06,756 --> 00:37:08,916 Speaker 1: should be replaced, and let's do a better job of 576 00:37:09,196 --> 00:37:11,916 Speaker 1: training and selected them next time. And the reason we're 577 00:37:11,956 --> 00:37:14,716 Speaker 1: free to do that is that none has come along 578 00:37:15,076 --> 00:37:19,916 Speaker 1: and constructed a magical teacher genre that allows us to 579 00:37:19,916 --> 00:37:26,836 Speaker 1: assign every teacher to one of four reductive narrative categories. Second, 580 00:37:27,396 --> 00:37:29,916 Speaker 1: and a more important point, is that I think we 581 00:37:29,996 --> 00:37:33,276 Speaker 1: need to consider what these narratives do to those within 582 00:37:33,836 --> 00:37:38,636 Speaker 1: the profession, because how the police think of themselves is 583 00:37:38,676 --> 00:37:41,356 Speaker 1: also shaped by these theories. You know, it's often been 584 00:37:41,396 --> 00:37:44,196 Speaker 1: said that the Godfather. I'm sure you've heard this, the 585 00:37:44,236 --> 00:37:47,996 Speaker 1: Godfather started out being about the mob, but before long 586 00:37:48,116 --> 00:37:51,996 Speaker 1: the mob was about being like the Godfather. Right, they 587 00:37:52,036 --> 00:37:57,236 Speaker 1: all started pretending they were Marlon Brando or Cultural narratives 588 00:37:57,276 --> 00:38:01,076 Speaker 1: about groups don't just reflect those groups, they also start 589 00:38:01,116 --> 00:38:04,276 Speaker 1: to define those groups. So the police also watched law 590 00:38:04,276 --> 00:38:07,316 Speaker 1: in Order, Right, They also read crime novels. And what 591 00:38:07,356 --> 00:38:10,076 Speaker 1: do they learn from them? They learned that law enforcement 592 00:38:10,276 --> 00:38:14,396 Speaker 1: is about them. It's the story of their own identity 593 00:38:14,476 --> 00:38:17,956 Speaker 1: and skill. Are they any good? Are they honest? Are 594 00:38:17,956 --> 00:38:21,356 Speaker 1: they as dogged and skilled and fundamental and as the 595 00:38:21,356 --> 00:38:25,036 Speaker 1: police of Ed McBain's eighty seventh Precinct, or as hapless 596 00:38:25,076 --> 00:38:29,916 Speaker 1: as Colonel Clink and sergeant Schultz. The great crime novelist 597 00:38:29,956 --> 00:38:33,556 Speaker 1: Joseph Wambach, who was an LAPD officer for many years, 598 00:38:34,636 --> 00:38:37,636 Speaker 1: one said that the modern police novel was not about 599 00:38:37,716 --> 00:38:40,996 Speaker 1: the man working the case, but the case working the man, 600 00:38:41,916 --> 00:38:44,636 Speaker 1: meaning that the innovation of police fiction in the modern 601 00:38:44,676 --> 00:38:48,716 Speaker 1: era was to turn the spotlight on what the job 602 00:38:48,796 --> 00:38:52,396 Speaker 1: of maintaining law and order did to the psychology and 603 00:38:52,476 --> 00:38:55,316 Speaker 1: peace of mind and character of the man tasked with 604 00:38:55,796 --> 00:39:00,476 Speaker 1: maintaining law order. And I think that's exactly what the 605 00:39:00,516 --> 00:39:04,476 Speaker 1: four narratives are doing. They are simply giving different answers 606 00:39:04,476 --> 00:39:08,236 Speaker 1: to that question of who the police officer is. In 607 00:39:08,276 --> 00:39:11,476 Speaker 1: the Western it's it's just the ordinary man must summon 608 00:39:11,676 --> 00:39:14,356 Speaker 1: his own courage to step into the breach. In the Northern, 609 00:39:14,516 --> 00:39:16,516 Speaker 1: the officer is not up to the task. In a 610 00:39:16,636 --> 00:39:19,996 Speaker 1: Southern the officer is corrupted by his responsibilities. And in 611 00:39:20,036 --> 00:39:25,916 Speaker 1: the Eastern, our hero rises magnificently to the challenge. Police fiction, 612 00:39:26,196 --> 00:39:30,476 Speaker 1: in all of those forms is an exercise in narcissism. 613 00:39:30,716 --> 00:39:33,596 Speaker 1: These are not novels and shows about solving crimes. There 614 00:39:33,636 --> 00:39:37,516 Speaker 1: shows about crime solvers. And where is the public in 615 00:39:37,596 --> 00:39:41,276 Speaker 1: that right? Where If Robert Peel were alive today, he 616 00:39:41,276 --> 00:39:43,316 Speaker 1: would look around him, and he would say, we have 617 00:39:43,436 --> 00:39:47,476 Speaker 1: given police officers a picture of their profession that leaves 618 00:39:47,476 --> 00:39:51,316 Speaker 1: out the most important element in their success, the people 619 00:39:51,396 --> 00:39:56,396 Speaker 1: whose respect and support make police work possible. Remember that 620 00:39:56,996 --> 00:39:59,956 Speaker 1: Peel principle. The ability of the police to perform their 621 00:40:00,036 --> 00:40:06,996 Speaker 1: duties is dependent on public approval of police existence. I 622 00:40:07,156 --> 00:40:10,756 Speaker 1: defy you to find they're in the world of crime 623 00:40:10,796 --> 00:40:15,596 Speaker 1: fiction a representation of that idea. It doesn't exist. That's 624 00:40:15,636 --> 00:40:19,516 Speaker 1: not the reason people write fiction police fiction, and it's 625 00:40:19,516 --> 00:40:23,276 Speaker 1: not the reason why readers like me love please fiction. 626 00:40:25,156 --> 00:40:28,156 Speaker 1: So what is the solution? Well, it breaks my heart 627 00:40:28,196 --> 00:40:31,156 Speaker 1: to say this, but it is time for us to 628 00:40:31,196 --> 00:40:36,316 Speaker 1: turn our backs on a spine novel right, No more enough. 629 00:40:36,676 --> 00:40:40,436 Speaker 1: It's been one hundred years or more and it has 630 00:40:40,796 --> 00:40:45,196 Speaker 1: left us worse off than we started. I'm sure all 631 00:40:45,196 --> 00:40:49,276 Speaker 1: of you. I've been watching the Governor Florida on his 632 00:40:49,356 --> 00:40:53,956 Speaker 1: current cultural cleansing campaign, and all I have to say is, 633 00:40:54,876 --> 00:40:58,316 Speaker 1: where is Ron DeSantis when we need him? He's so 634 00:40:58,436 --> 00:41:02,716 Speaker 1: busy banning Jody Picot novels that he's missed the real culprit, 635 00:41:02,956 --> 00:41:09,076 Speaker 1: which is the child John Grisham, Ed McBain and our 636 00:41:09,276 --> 00:41:13,716 Speaker 1: Conan Doyle let us go to the Hudson News at 637 00:41:13,716 --> 00:41:17,756 Speaker 1: the Jacksonville Airport, take all of those paperbacks off the wall, 638 00:41:18,716 --> 00:41:21,356 Speaker 1: put them in a big pile in front of the 639 00:41:21,396 --> 00:41:26,716 Speaker 1: State House in Tallahassee, and light a match. Thank you. 640 00:41:40,676 --> 00:41:45,316 Speaker 1: I have time for a few questions. I think anyone 641 00:41:45,356 --> 00:41:46,596 Speaker 1: wants to come forward. 642 00:41:49,756 --> 00:41:53,316 Speaker 3: Hi, I just wanted to ask if, in this new 643 00:41:53,356 --> 00:41:58,516 Speaker 3: conclusion that it's time to move past the mystery novel, 644 00:41:58,556 --> 00:42:01,276 Speaker 3: the spy novel. Do you think there's a room for 645 00:42:01,356 --> 00:42:04,996 Speaker 3: something more nuanced, one that has evolved maybe with our 646 00:42:05,116 --> 00:42:08,596 Speaker 3: understanding and our ability to capture information. You know, certainly 647 00:42:08,676 --> 00:42:12,516 Speaker 3: when these the genre was born, we did not have 648 00:42:12,636 --> 00:42:15,196 Speaker 3: cell phones, we didn't have social media, and we certainly 649 00:42:15,636 --> 00:42:18,756 Speaker 3: didn't have instant news. And these have all drastically changed 650 00:42:18,756 --> 00:42:21,716 Speaker 3: the culture around policing and at least in the US. 651 00:42:22,276 --> 00:42:24,996 Speaker 3: Do you think there's a way for the genre to 652 00:42:25,076 --> 00:42:29,796 Speaker 3: move on and be more incorporative of these elements and 653 00:42:29,956 --> 00:42:32,716 Speaker 3: more reflective of the way policing actually is. 654 00:42:33,556 --> 00:42:37,756 Speaker 1: I do think that. I mean, basically, what has happened 655 00:42:37,796 --> 00:42:40,876 Speaker 1: I think is if we have exhausted the possibilities of 656 00:42:40,916 --> 00:42:45,916 Speaker 1: the form and it's time for reinvention. And I think 657 00:42:45,916 --> 00:42:48,396 Speaker 1: as well, that people who write this kind of fiction 658 00:42:48,516 --> 00:42:53,516 Speaker 1: need to understand what their social obligations are. That what 659 00:42:53,596 --> 00:42:55,356 Speaker 1: has happened, I think is that there's a generation. I 660 00:42:55,396 --> 00:42:57,236 Speaker 1: think this is more true in Hollywood than it is 661 00:42:57,716 --> 00:43:01,396 Speaker 1: in the world of fiction, that people have really dodged 662 00:43:01,396 --> 00:43:04,276 Speaker 1: the question of what the impact of their writing is. 663 00:43:04,796 --> 00:43:07,036 Speaker 1: And you make a movie, you make a really bad 664 00:43:07,716 --> 00:43:10,556 Speaker 1: cop movie, and you just shrug and say it's entertainment, 665 00:43:10,956 --> 00:43:13,596 Speaker 1: and you forget that actually know, what you are providing 666 00:43:13,716 --> 00:43:17,476 Speaker 1: is the cultural raw material for the way we make 667 00:43:17,516 --> 00:43:19,756 Speaker 1: sense of the world. And if you just mail it 668 00:43:19,796 --> 00:43:23,476 Speaker 1: in and just stick to some formula that is no 669 00:43:23,556 --> 00:43:25,676 Speaker 1: longer relevant to the world we live in, you're doing 670 00:43:26,036 --> 00:43:29,516 Speaker 1: society a disservice. So yes, I do think it is 671 00:43:29,596 --> 00:43:31,476 Speaker 1: possible to reinvent it, but I think it's going to 672 00:43:31,516 --> 00:43:35,396 Speaker 1: require a change of heart within the creative community. 673 00:43:35,876 --> 00:43:36,276 Speaker 3: Thank you. 674 00:43:39,116 --> 00:43:41,356 Speaker 2: Okay, so hi, my name is Isabella. First of all, thank 675 00:43:41,356 --> 00:43:43,556 Speaker 2: you so much for talking. I wanted to ask a 676 00:43:43,556 --> 00:43:46,076 Speaker 2: little bit about kind of going along that same crime 677 00:43:46,076 --> 00:43:49,716 Speaker 2: show narrative, about how much police officers are really able 678 00:43:49,716 --> 00:43:52,156 Speaker 2: to do and how that kind of changes our public 679 00:43:52,236 --> 00:43:54,756 Speaker 2: view and our public narrative. I'm a huge fan of 680 00:43:54,756 --> 00:43:57,156 Speaker 2: Brooklyn nine nine knives out all that stuff, and we 681 00:43:57,196 --> 00:44:00,716 Speaker 2: see police officers and detectives going in asking questions, breaking 682 00:44:00,756 --> 00:44:03,596 Speaker 2: into things, all without warrants and everything like that. Do 683 00:44:03,676 --> 00:44:05,916 Speaker 2: you think that changes the way we view police officers 684 00:44:05,956 --> 00:44:07,836 Speaker 2: and how incompetent we may see them to be. 685 00:44:08,436 --> 00:44:12,916 Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's a really interesting point, the unreality of 686 00:44:14,116 --> 00:44:18,116 Speaker 1: a lot of police fiction. Does it contributes to our 687 00:44:18,116 --> 00:44:23,036 Speaker 1: disillusionment because we have this impression from the way that 688 00:44:23,236 --> 00:44:28,036 Speaker 1: police work is represented in fiction that the police officer 689 00:44:28,476 --> 00:44:30,716 Speaker 1: has an awful lot more agency than he or she 690 00:44:30,796 --> 00:44:34,956 Speaker 1: actually does in real life. Right, there are, for good reasons, 691 00:44:34,996 --> 00:44:38,356 Speaker 1: significant constraints on what they are able to do, and 692 00:44:38,556 --> 00:44:40,876 Speaker 1: of course it doesn't make for a good story. So 693 00:44:41,316 --> 00:44:43,556 Speaker 1: when we compare the there's a whole line of psychology 694 00:44:43,596 --> 00:44:48,036 Speaker 1: on what's called the CSI effect in juries that juries 695 00:44:48,076 --> 00:44:54,236 Speaker 1: are now more likely to acquit defendants because the level 696 00:44:54,276 --> 00:44:57,076 Speaker 1: of evidence presented in the trial does not match up 697 00:44:57,076 --> 00:44:59,396 Speaker 1: with the level of evidence they're used to seeing in 698 00:44:59,436 --> 00:45:03,516 Speaker 1: criminal trials from CSI. And that's a good example of 699 00:45:03,596 --> 00:45:07,716 Speaker 1: how like that's there's no surer path to distrust and 700 00:45:07,756 --> 00:45:11,676 Speaker 1: disillusionment if the standard of police work is described over 701 00:45:11,716 --> 00:45:14,436 Speaker 1: here in fiction and in real life it's over here, 702 00:45:14,916 --> 00:45:20,396 Speaker 1: So I think that that is a very accurate observation. 703 00:45:21,156 --> 00:45:21,516 Speaker 2: Thank you. 704 00:45:22,636 --> 00:45:24,396 Speaker 1: I think I've run out of time, so thank you 705 00:45:24,476 --> 00:45:39,596 Speaker 1: all very much. This episode of Revisionist History was produced 706 00:45:39,596 --> 00:45:43,036 Speaker 1: by Kiara Powell with Ben Nadapph Haffrey, and Jacob Smith. 707 00:45:43,636 --> 00:45:47,036 Speaker 1: Our showrunner is Peter Clowney. Original scoring by Luis Garra, 708 00:45:47,476 --> 00:45:52,636 Speaker 1: mastering by Lawn Williams, and engineering by Nina Lawrence. Thank 709 00:45:52,676 --> 00:45:55,796 Speaker 1: you to everyone at the New Orleans Book Festival, including 710 00:45:55,956 --> 00:46:00,076 Speaker 1: Lindsay Phillips and Amy Bradshaw. If you haven't signed up 711 00:46:00,116 --> 00:46:03,436 Speaker 1: yet for Pushkin Plus, now is the time. We're about 712 00:46:03,436 --> 00:46:06,596 Speaker 1: to drop us sweeping mini series on guns in America 713 00:46:06,956 --> 00:46:09,956 Speaker 1: where we go down all kinds of strangebit holes about 714 00:46:09,956 --> 00:46:13,716 Speaker 1: our national obsession. It's going to drop August thirty first 715 00:46:14,276 --> 00:46:17,676 Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus listeners. We'll get the whole series that day, 716 00:46:17,756 --> 00:46:21,356 Speaker 1: add free. Everyone else gets the first episode and then 717 00:46:21,396 --> 00:46:24,156 Speaker 1: the balance of the series over the next five weeks. 718 00:46:24,636 --> 00:46:28,196 Speaker 1: Both good choices, but I highly recommend the first option. 719 00:46:28,996 --> 00:46:32,316 Speaker 1: Go to pushkin dot fm, slash plus to join up. 720 00:46:32,956 --> 00:46:34,436 Speaker 1: I'm Mountain Bubble