WEBVTT - Divorce, But Happy 0:00:01.920 --> 0:00:06.880 Wind Down with Jane Kramer and I heard radio podcast. Okay, 0:00:06.960 --> 0:00:12.440 so going live today on the actual day. Today was 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:14.840 Jolie's first day taking the school bus, and I have 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:20.080 to tell you guys, it was so freaking hard. Um. 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:25.799 She just had this like independence, which I just I 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:29.240 love that about her. But at the same time, it 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:31.440 was so easy for her to like wave by to me, 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:33.519 and it kind of broke my heart. Not that I 0:00:33.560 --> 0:00:35.280 wanted her to be like crying, obviously, I want her 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:38.040 to be strong and like super independent, but I was 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:41.560 so happy for because she was super happy. Um. But 0:00:41.760 --> 0:00:43.360 and I did not cry in front of her. But 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:46.120 the second that she got in the bus and I 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:49.400 waved by to her, I straight up when the house 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:54.120 and bawled my eyes out so um that it was 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:58.440 really hard. Um, but it was. Yeah, I'm I'm counting 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:00.800 down the minutes until the bus comes back in a 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:04.040 few hours. Mark, did you cry the first time? But 0:01:04.160 --> 0:01:07.480 that happened. It's so funny. We don't have buses out 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:10.119 here in southern California. I mean that's not true. We do, 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:13.520 but it's not standard and it's not common. It's only um, 0:01:13.760 --> 0:01:16.920 certain areas get them. So no our kids have never 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:19.600 gone away on a bus from us before, Like, can 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:22.600 you even imagine how that would feel? Like yes, yes, 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:26.440 but also like you're excited because she's not freaking out 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:29.360 and crying. Yeah, but you're so sad and all you 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:31.119 want to do is freak out and cry. Yeah. I get. 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:33.319 I totally get what you're going through. It was so 0:01:33.400 --> 0:01:36.320 hard and I you know, obviously my ex was there 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:38.920 because you know, some big day, and he asked it's 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:40.320 not his day to day, but he asked if he 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:43.080 could come, and I was like absolutely, like she's gonna, 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:46.080 you know, love both of us there. And then I 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:49.040 think like seeing him too was just another I kind 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:51.120 of said that there's just a lot of transitions going 0:01:51.120 --> 0:01:54.160 on right now, and it was just it was just 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:57.880 very emotional, like the whole whole thing, like so many 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:00.960 things that have has happened just in the last month, 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:03.360 like with her going to school was being finalized. Like 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:09.040 it was just like this um release of emotions and 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:12.000 it was really hard. But my thing is is like, 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:14.880 you know, when she gets off the bus and like 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:17.840 how does she know where her classroom is? And is 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:20.120 she okay? Is she crying right now in school? And 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:22.240 you know, she's probably running around in circles having the 0:02:22.280 --> 0:02:24.680 best time of her life. But I'm like, she's probably 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:28.680 in a corner somewhere like crying. It's so good for 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:31.880 her and for you. It is. It's good for everybody, 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:34.320 but I get it. And then the saddest thing was 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:40.720 Jay's He's like jojo jojo and just like crying for her. 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:44.960 I was just like, ah, but yeah, it's it's um. 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:47.720 The band aid has been peeled, and so now it's 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:51.519 just time to get back on that regular routine. And 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:56.280 I'm super pumped because we have Benjamin Health Fond coming 0:02:56.320 --> 0:02:59.280 on and he has a book out called Our Happy Divorce, 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:01.639 and it's been really cool. I've I've appreciated so many 0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:03.560 of you that have reached out to me on Instagram 0:03:03.560 --> 0:03:06.800 and dm ng me and someone recommended his book and 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:10.320 so I've recently ordered it. Um. But I'm excited to 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:13.079 talk to him and about his journey because happy and 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:16.520 divorce just don't really to me go hand in hand. 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:21.720 So I'm gonna I'm curious to hear how he got 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:40.520 to a happy divorce. So we'll be right back. Ben Hi, Hi, 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:45.080 how are you good? How are you? I'm so good. Um. 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:47.360 I Well, first of all, thank you so much for 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:51.280 coming on wine Down. I appreciate it. And you were 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:54.920 someone you were recommended because my I have like the 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:58.640 sweetest Instagram followers and they always are like sending me 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:01.960 inspirational thing things where things would make me laugh for 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:05.440 helpful people, and you were one of the names that 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:09.280 came up. And I remember reading or like I and 0:04:09.360 --> 0:04:12.080 I ordered your book on Amazon. But I was like, 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:16.040 happy and divorce just don't seem to go together right now. 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:18.200 And so I'm like, I I need him on to 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:22.040 understand like how those two can can be, how there 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:26.440 is a happy divorce. So it really does. I'm like, 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:28.960 you know, I'm like I wouldn't wish a divorce on 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:33.320 like my worst enemy. Um, but can you just give 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:35.920 the listeners a little in me, like a little background 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:38.080 of who you are and where you're at in your 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:44.480 life and how this all came about? Yeah? So um 0:04:44.600 --> 0:04:49.440 who am I? Who? Yeah? Who has been? That's actually 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:54.680 something that is an ever evolving uh answer. But um 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:59.240 my what ex wife and I Nikki, Um, we got 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:03.080 divorced for years ago. Uh And just like every sort 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:07.200 of I guess marriage ending, Uh, it doesn't end on 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:10.800 a winning streak. It doesn't end because everything's great. And 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:13.039 it's a process that and it wasn't for us that 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:14.960 we didn't wake up one day and say let's get divorced. 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:18.200 It was a uh you know, long process and all 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:22.240 the negative stuff that goes on, um uh with divorces 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:24.799 is you're dealing with the business decision but you're also 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:30.760 a business uh decisions but problems. You put the emotional side, 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:33.240 the emotional stuff on top of it, right, and those 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:36.240 two together never ever mix well. And then you have 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:39.400 the kids who are the ones who face the consequences 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:43.560 of that. So anyways, Um, we got divorced and uh 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:48.520 I left the house and angry, resentful. Um. Was there 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:50.880 one side that wanted the divorce more than the other 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:54.440 or I think both of us looking back on it 0:05:54.560 --> 0:06:00.000 now wanted it. I think Nikki is a different uh 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:03.120 person than I am, and she would rather have fixed it, 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:07.320 um and stayed together, but for the wrong reasons for 0:06:07.320 --> 0:06:11.080 our son, UM. And so looking back on it, yes, 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:14.560 the answer to the question is yes, UM. But I 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:17.200 was the one who UM was a little bit more 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:23.880 UM angry, bitter, blame shifting, Um. It was all her 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:28.360 fault uh and an unwillingness to take a look at 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:30.560 my side. UM. And I think one of the things 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:32.680 that I did, which is a mistake that I wouldn't 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:38.240 recommend to anybody, UM, was that I called a lawyer first. UH. 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:41.719 And UM, you know, I sat with him and I 0:06:41.760 --> 0:06:44.640 told him what I wanted, and that was, you know, 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:47.080 basically the cliff note version of it was I wanted 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:51.080 to destroy Nikki uh and show the world how, you know, 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:54.440 how I perceived her. Um. And he gladly took my 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:59.080 retainer and he a week later sent me a game plan, uh, 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:02.159 novel on how we were going to do it. Uh. 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:04.480 And it was exactly what I wanted to hear, or 0:07:05.000 --> 0:07:06.720 thought I wanted to hear. And I was on a plane. 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:08.840 I kept it for a week for some reason, I 0:07:08.839 --> 0:07:11.119 didn't read it. And I was on a plane coming 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:14.560 back from l A on a red eye to Florida, 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:18.000 and I pulled it out and I read it and 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:20.000 I opened it and I got two pages into it. 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:22.040 And uh, I don't know what it was at that time, 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:25.560 at that moment um, but it was the first time 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:28.120 in a long time that I was honest and I 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:30.720 was you know, I I saw things clearly. I got 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:34.760 this you know, gut feeling, UM. And part of it 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:37.080 was my experience with my parents who had a high 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:41.200 conflict divorce wore the roses in the eighties. You know, 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:44.080 there was one way of doing it, and that was 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:47.480 just like the movie UM. And I was and my 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:49.360 siblings were trapped in the middle of it, and we 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:52.840 ended up getting the emotional bill, or get having to 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:55.280 pay the emotional bill for something we had no choice, 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:58.400 and we didn't order the restaurant, we didn't order the wine, 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:01.960 food anything. UM. And I was able to tap into 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:05.480 that experience on that plane that night. UH. And I 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:10.200 also came to that real understanding and awareness that there 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:14.560 is no way in the history of relationships, UM, that 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:17.880 it can be one person's fault. And so I called 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:21.400 the lawyer on Monday. UM said thank you, but no 0:08:21.520 --> 0:08:23.640 thank you, And then I made Then I made the 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:26.400 second call, which should have been my first one, that 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:28.880 if you're listening and you're going through a divorce, I 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:32.640 called the therapist UM. And I also, UH have been 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:34.600 sober for quite a long time, and I called my 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:37.680 sponsor and I started working on the emotional side UM 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:40.960 and tried to clean up, and for the first time 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:44.280 in that process, it wasn't about Nikki. It wasn't about 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:48.520 what she did. Um. This was my side of the street. Um. 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:51.760 And shockingly, it didn't take that long for me to 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:56.000 come to the sobering no pun intended uh conclusion that 0:08:56.040 --> 0:08:58.280 I wouldn't want to be married to me either. You know, 0:08:58.320 --> 0:09:01.360 I wasn't the man, I wasn't the father. I wasn't 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:04.880 showing up in this life the way that I literally 0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:09.960 thought I was. Uh and so um. Anyways, that's the 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:11.920 you know, emotional side that we and then NICKI was 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:14.520 doing that work too. Thank you for for sharing that. 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:19.120 But also when you got to that realization, was there 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:21.720 a part of you that was like, wait, Nikki, let's 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:28.679 try to fix this. Absolutely not. It didn't change um 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:30.640 that Nicky and I. I mean that was clear. You 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:32.920 know that nick and I were just not put you know, 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:35.120 we were put on this earth for one reason, and 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:38.600 that was to make a beautiful child. Um. And so, 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:41.520 but what I did do was I called her. After 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:43.599 I called the lawyer and I said thank you, but 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:44.960 no thank you. I called her and I said, NICKI, 0:09:45.000 --> 0:09:47.160 I just need some time. I'm not in any space 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:50.000 to you know, move forward, not that that we're not 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:53.439 moving forward, but to go into this you know, business 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:57.200 legal whatever you want to call it, um space. And 0:09:57.880 --> 0:10:00.360 you know, to her, to her credit and ace, she 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:02.000 gave me that time she should take as much time 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:06.200 as you need. Um. And so she then went on 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:08.720 and did some work on herself with therapist I did, 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:11.880 and uh, and then I came to her and I 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:14.400 called her and and you know, about a month later, 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:17.680 maybe it wasn't that long, but asked her to coffee 0:10:17.760 --> 0:10:21.320 and sat her down, and uh, for the first and 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:25.680 only time, I think, uh, even to this day, UM, 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:29.359 we had an authentic, uh intimate moment where I apologized 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:32.599 to her and uh you know she did too, and 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:35.120 she she apologized me back. And look, it didn't turn 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:37.199 into her happy divorce right after that, but all of 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:39.280 a sudden, there was like a weight lifted off of 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:42.479 both of her chest and there was some room, um 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:46.240 to move. It wasn't just this focus of you know, 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:49.840 bitterness and resentment, and and then it made the process 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:52.800 that the process wasn't easy from there, it just was 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:57.280 it was a lot simpler, um. And uh, you know 0:10:57.720 --> 0:10:59.600 that that was the turning point and the next question, 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:01.320 I asked her what she does she have any problem 0:11:01.320 --> 0:11:05.880 with joint custody you know, of our son everything, and 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:08.280 she said absolutely not. I said, Nikki, all the other stuff, 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:10.079 you know, we can work on. You know that's the 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:13.280 easy part. Um. But you know, from that moment to 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:17.080 where we are fourteen years later, if if you had 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:20.880 told me or her fourteen years ago that we would 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:24.200 have the life and the relationship we have today and 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:27.160 the co authors of a book and live and travel together, 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:30.640 and have we lived seven houses down from each other. Um, 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:33.400 you know she's remarried. I'm remarried. Everybody we go on 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:35.800 family vacations and we would have said, you're out of 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:38.000 your mind. You know. It just was so we just 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:40.800 wanted to be in the same room together, um, and 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:43.600 be able to, you know, go to Asher's sporting events 0:11:43.760 --> 0:11:47.880 or his plays at school, and not have him have 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:51.120 to as he's walking over to his parents, who are 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:54.600 sitting apart from each other, like play in his mind, 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:56.120 because this is what I had to do. Okay. I 0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:59.360 think I went over to mom last time. UM, do 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:00.680 you I have to go over to dad, you know, 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:02.319 because I don't want to make non feel bad or 0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:03.760 I don't want to make Dad feel And that's the 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:05.439 kind of stuff that goes on in kid's heads when 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:08.079 their parents, you know, are in this you know, high 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:11.000 high conflict situation. So that was the goal. And then, 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:13.120 you know, so a lot of it was faking until 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:15.959 we made it. Like we would sit at Asher's events 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:18.720 and you know, if if she were sitting here, she'd 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:20.480 probably say the same thing. But she was the last 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:23.319 person I wanted to sit next to. She was the 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:26.080 last person that I wanted to smile, you know. And 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:28.400 because there was still that emotional stuff, there was that 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:31.600 still that you know, washing machine inside of me. Of 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:35.040 It's not like it all just disappeared, um, but eventually 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:39.760 it just became more natural. And what do you because 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:41.840 I feel like that's the part where I'm struggling with 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:44.400 the most, is like biting my my lip because there's 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:46.160 so many things I want to say, and I would, God, 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:49.679 I would give anything to have that lunch or whatever 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:52.520 that you you said you had, um to have that 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:55.800 just like an apology and the you know, and for 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:58.320 just like from a really honest and true place, like 0:12:58.480 --> 0:13:00.439 it's just that like broke my heart you said that, 0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:05.880 because that would just be like everything um, and it's 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:08.480 like but I just don't think I'll ever really get that, 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:10.440 which is just the the acceptance that I have to 0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:18.520 now accept um. And so it's um moving like moving 0:13:19.080 --> 0:13:21.040 going down the other road of Okay, that's not going 0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:23.640 to actually happen. So now I have to try to 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:25.960 be around someone and that and it's like we're trying 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:29.280 and doing the very best we can, but it's there's 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:31.079 still so many times when I want to be like 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:34.240 I want to say something, and and it's you know, 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:36.400 holding myself back because I'm like, okay, what we have 0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:39.480 right now, we're as cordial as we can be, and 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:43.079 and you know, we're really just communicating about the kids. 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:45.160 But when I hear that, you know, you guys are 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:47.200 going on family trips, it's like, yeah, that seems like 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:49.839 the farthest thing that would ever happen or even be 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:51.760 like a friend or I could fight in or or 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:55.400 trust again. You know. So it's like yeah, and that's 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:58.199 such a good point because and this is where you know, 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:01.400 when we tell our story, even in the book, is 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:04.120 we want to be very intentional and let people know 0:14:04.160 --> 0:14:07.959 that we get it. Like again, if you told us 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:11.079 fourteen years ago that we've been doing this just like you, 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:14.760 I would answer never, you know, I I would have 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:19.280 said never. And you know, but because of the commitment 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:21.440 to our son, and I think that gets lost a 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:24.160 lot of times and divorces and it's not done intentionally, 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:26.520 or they don't premeditate how they're gonna do it, or 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:30.760 my parents didn't. But these emotions, right, these these negative 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:34.120 hodgepodge melting pot of emotions sort of get the best 0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:36.240 of people and they make decisions that aren't really in 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:39.720 the best interests of the kids. And you know, not 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:42.720 to be inauthentic, but there were plenty of times where 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:44.840 I bit my tongue. I wanted to say some there 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:47.800 are plenty of times with Nikki bit her tongue, right. 0:14:47.880 --> 0:14:51.120 But but you know, now it's been a little easier 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:53.320 where we don't necessarily have to buy our time because 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:55.280 we can be honest with each other. You know, there 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:57.560 there are still things we still fight, you know, we 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:00.320 it's not you know, this land of like, oh that's 0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:03.800 why I'm divorced you and okay, exactly, And it's a 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:06.200 lot easier. It's a lot easier to accept when she's 0:15:06.600 --> 0:15:09.360 my best friend than even you know, but my ex 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:11.920 wife in the beginning. But when people listen to this 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:18.080 um and you're going through it, it's really truly um 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:21.520 an understanding that we've been there and we could never 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:24.200 have imagined this, and it might not happen for everybody, 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:27.960 but just you know, maybe hold space uh in there 0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:32.440 for and some curiosity to the possibility for sure, and 0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:34.440 I and I do, I do get that, and it's 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:37.440 just I think we're I'm kind of struggling as I'm 0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:42.200 still in the grieving process of it. And when you know, 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:44.640 we talk, he's very much like, get over it. This 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:47.080 is our reality, and I'm like, but I'm not there yet, 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:49.920 Like this is still I'm not that light switch that 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:51.560 can just be like, oh, yeah, this is our reality. 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:53.760 I'm over it. Nor would I ever say for someone 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:55.480 else to get over it like that to me is 0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:58.120 just like there's no empathy in that. So that's where 0:15:58.160 --> 0:16:02.160 I feel just like, um not understood. I feel alone. 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:04.080 And but again it's those are all the things that 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:07.280 now I have to process solo and with my therapist 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:11.000 and friends. But it's just it feels very business like 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:13.920 and not to me is just like that's where I'm 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:17.320 emotional about it because I never thought it would be 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:20.160 like a business relationship like that, you know, where it's 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:23.280 and it's like what about the there's how one person 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:25.080 can be so business like and the other one's like 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:27.760 very emotional. So obviously I'm you know, on the emotional 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:29.880 side of it, but or I'm like, but how can 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:32.840 someone be so business like? Right? Right? And that's you 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:36.840 know unfortunately, uh, you know, as people with a different 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:39.400 body part between our lives, is that that is sort 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:42.200 of you know, an m o of you know, at 0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:44.360 least for me. I don't know, I don't want to 0:16:44.360 --> 0:16:47.040 put all men, you know, sort of in this bucket 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:49.360 for but for me and one of my you know, 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:51.960 patterns in life is to just be business like right 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:55.760 and did not feel and you know, to not um 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:57.280 you know. I was always told as a kid that 0:16:57.320 --> 0:17:02.040 I was too sensitive, uh, and I took that as 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:04.200 being bad, right. I took that as a bad thing 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:06.119 or that I wasn't mad enough. So I think that 0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:08.159 one of the things also is for me was to 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:11.120 be able to you know, accept that. And I wish 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:13.000 I could say that I learned that fourteen years ago, 0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:16.040 but I just I just have learned that recently, but 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:18.080 you know, you know, one of the things that that 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:22.640 I did is probably um just like what you're talking 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:28.520 about is be able to to disassociate the emotions uh 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:31.639 or not feel and just replace that with business like 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:33.720 And that doesn't mean that the emotions weren't there, but 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:35.080 it's a way. It was a way for me to 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:38.720 protect emotions underneath and not have to deal with it. 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:41.960 So that's like I would love to get your input, 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:45.200 like as you know the guy, because he was saying 0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:48.399 I was being cold, and when when I when I 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:52.240 UM shut something off, it's very I'm like, hey, what's up? 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:54.600 Because I like it's either that or I'm gonna be 0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:57.960 like bawling crying, being like I you know, why did 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:00.440 this happen? I didn't want this? So it's like finding 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:03.280 that in between for me has been really difficult because 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:04.719 I'm like, I'm not meaning to be coold, but this 0:18:04.800 --> 0:18:06.480 is like what you get now. I don't like I 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:09.840 I'm not there like hey how are you? You know? 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:12.440 Like I am around the kids, but when it's just us, 0:18:12.440 --> 0:18:15.280 I'm like, hey, what's up? Why are you cold? I 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:17.760 don't I don't you don't want to know what I 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:20.600 want to say exactly and that you know, that's about 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:25.080 owning you know, the anger, you know, is emotion for me, 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:28.840 though anger is also a secondary emotion right of you know, 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:32.160 protecting something underneath it. But one thing that I had 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:34.600 to do was and still have to do today, is 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:38.080 own my anger. And it is an emotion and it 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:40.800 is something that needs to be processed, especially for me. 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:44.840 I mean, if not, it comes out in the wrong way, 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:47.359 and you know, it comes out as saying things I 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:49.680 don't want to say and doing all that. But um, 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:54.040 when you look at, um, the relationship with Nick and 0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:57.919 I in the beginning, um, it almost had to be 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:02.480 uh a dynamic of or it would have been a 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:05.719 dynamic of our old patterns and our old dynamic of 0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:09.679 throwing the emotional boomerang back and forth, right throwing the 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:15.879 uh you know mean spirited or cold or whatever the 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:18.320 dynamic was, and and just throwing that ball back and 0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:20.679 forth and black forth. Now what we learned to do, 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:23.719 and sometimes I did it, I think most of the 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:26.840 time she did it, but was just dropped the baseball 0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:29.679 and not throw it back, you know, and learn how to. 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:32.040 This isn't gonna go anywhere. This is we we've learned. 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:35.360 We played this movie. This is why, you know. Yeah, 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:37.480 I had to apologize the other day to them because 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:40.159 I was, you know, just let my emotions get in 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:42.119 the middle of what I thought should be happening. And 0:19:42.119 --> 0:19:45.000 then I was like, I'm sorry for letting what I 0:19:45.040 --> 0:19:48.679 think should be going on or happening. It was regarding 0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:50.960 the kids. I was like, I projected how I'm feeling 0:19:51.040 --> 0:19:54.040 right now onto the situation, and I'm sorry. So I 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:56.480 was proud of myself for owning it. But at the 0:19:56.480 --> 0:19:58.320 same time, it's just like, but I didn't want to 0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:01.480 be in this situation, but I left part of right. Well, 0:20:01.520 --> 0:20:04.920 I mean that, yeah, and that's what. And I also 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:06.840 wanted to say when when that I forgot to say 0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:09.240 at the beginning is that I am not a lawyer, 0:20:09.720 --> 0:20:12.760 I am not a doctor, I'm not a therapist. I 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:15.000 didn't stay at a holiday in express last night. So 0:20:15.359 --> 0:20:18.880 you know, this is just you know, my human experience. Uh. 0:20:19.359 --> 0:20:22.400 And it seemed to work, you know with Nick and I. So, 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:24.920 so this stuff I'm saying doesn't have any sort of 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:28.000 basis in uh, you know, any sort of studies or anything. 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:31.040 But what makes it? You're like, in the book like, 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:33.600 what are some things that will be really helpful for people, 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:38.560 um to have that happy divorce. Yeah. I think the 0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:44.119 main thing, um is um putting our son first. And 0:20:44.160 --> 0:20:47.159 I think that that you know, gets thrown around a 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:50.920 lot um. And and for Nicky and I looking back 0:20:50.920 --> 0:20:54.600 on it, we didn't have this brilliant uh strategy at 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:58.040 the beginning. But as you probably can relate, when you 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:01.640 have a decision to make when you're in that divorce 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:06.879 or divorced or early divorced uh phase. Uh, you know, 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:10.160 and you have the simple math equation of two plus two, right, Uh, 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:13.320