Speaker 1: Wind Down with Jane Kramer and I heard radio podcast. Okay,
Speaker 1: so going live today on the actual day. Today was
Speaker 1: Jolie's first day taking the school bus, and I have
Speaker 1: to tell you guys, it was so freaking hard. Um.
Speaker 1: She just had this like independence, which I just I
Speaker 1: love that about her. But at the same time, it
Speaker 1: was so easy for her to like wave by to me,
Speaker 1: and it kind of broke my heart. Not that I
Speaker 1: wanted her to be like crying, obviously, I want her
Speaker 1: to be strong and like super independent, but I was
Speaker 1: so happy for because she was super happy. Um. But
Speaker 1: and I did not cry in front of her. But
Speaker 1: the second that she got in the bus and I
Speaker 1: waved by to her, I straight up when the house
Speaker 1: and bawled my eyes out so um that it was
Speaker 1: really hard. Um, but it was. Yeah, I'm I'm counting
Speaker 1: down the minutes until the bus comes back in a
Speaker 1: few hours. Mark, did you cry the first time? But
Speaker 1: that happened. It's so funny. We don't have buses out
Speaker 1: here in southern California. I mean that's not true. We do,
Speaker 1: but it's not standard and it's not common. It's only um,
Speaker 1: certain areas get them. So no our kids have never
Speaker 1: gone away on a bus from us before, Like, can
Speaker 1: you even imagine how that would feel? Like yes, yes,
Speaker 1: but also like you're excited because she's not freaking out
Speaker 1: and crying. Yeah, but you're so sad and all you
Speaker 1: want to do is freak out and cry. Yeah. I get.
Speaker 1: I totally get what you're going through. It was so
Speaker 1: hard and I you know, obviously my ex was there
Speaker 1: because you know, some big day, and he asked it's
Speaker 1: not his day to day, but he asked if he
Speaker 1: could come, and I was like absolutely, like she's gonna,
Speaker 1: you know, love both of us there. And then I
Speaker 1: think like seeing him too was just another I kind
Speaker 1: of said that there's just a lot of transitions going
Speaker 1: on right now, and it was just it was just
Speaker 1: very emotional, like the whole whole thing, like so many
Speaker 1: things that have has happened just in the last month,
Speaker 1: like with her going to school was being finalized. Like
Speaker 1: it was just like this um release of emotions and
Speaker 1: it was really hard. But my thing is is like,
Speaker 1: you know, when she gets off the bus and like
Speaker 1: how does she know where her classroom is? And is
Speaker 1: she okay? Is she crying right now in school? And
Speaker 1: you know, she's probably running around in circles having the
Speaker 1: best time of her life. But I'm like, she's probably
Speaker 1: in a corner somewhere like crying. It's so good for
Speaker 1: her and for you. It is. It's good for everybody,
Speaker 1: but I get it. And then the saddest thing was
Speaker 1: Jay's He's like jojo jojo and just like crying for her.
Speaker 1: I was just like, ah, but yeah, it's it's um.
Speaker 1: The band aid has been peeled, and so now it's
Speaker 1: just time to get back on that regular routine. And
Speaker 1: I'm super pumped because we have Benjamin Health Fond coming
Speaker 1: on and he has a book out called Our Happy Divorce,
Speaker 1: and it's been really cool. I've I've appreciated so many
Speaker 1: of you that have reached out to me on Instagram
Speaker 1: and dm ng me and someone recommended his book and
Speaker 1: so I've recently ordered it. Um. But I'm excited to
Speaker 1: talk to him and about his journey because happy and
Speaker 1: divorce just don't really to me go hand in hand.
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna I'm curious to hear how he got
Speaker 1: to a happy divorce. So we'll be right back. Ben Hi, Hi,
Speaker 1: how are you good? How are you? I'm so good. Um.
Speaker 1: I Well, first of all, thank you so much for
Speaker 1: coming on wine Down. I appreciate it. And you were
Speaker 1: someone you were recommended because my I have like the
Speaker 1: sweetest Instagram followers and they always are like sending me
Speaker 1: inspirational thing things where things would make me laugh for
Speaker 1: helpful people, and you were one of the names that
Speaker 1: came up. And I remember reading or like I and
Speaker 1: I ordered your book on Amazon. But I was like,
Speaker 1: happy and divorce just don't seem to go together right now.
Speaker 1: And so I'm like, I I need him on to
Speaker 1: understand like how those two can can be, how there
Speaker 1: is a happy divorce. So it really does. I'm like,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm like I wouldn't wish a divorce on
Speaker 1: like my worst enemy. Um, but can you just give
Speaker 1: the listeners a little in me, like a little background
Speaker 1: of who you are and where you're at in your
Speaker 1: life and how this all came about? Yeah? So um
Speaker 1: who am I? Who? Yeah? Who has been? That's actually
Speaker 1: something that is an ever evolving uh answer. But um
Speaker 1: my what ex wife and I Nikki, Um, we got
Speaker 1: divorced for years ago. Uh And just like every sort
Speaker 1: of I guess marriage ending, Uh, it doesn't end on
Speaker 1: a winning streak. It doesn't end because everything's great. And
Speaker 1: it's a process that and it wasn't for us that
Speaker 1: we didn't wake up one day and say let's get divorced.
Speaker 1: It was a uh you know, long process and all
Speaker 1: the negative stuff that goes on, um uh with divorces
Speaker 1: is you're dealing with the business decision but you're also
Speaker 1: a business uh decisions but problems. You put the emotional side,
Speaker 1: the emotional stuff on top of it, right, and those
Speaker 1: two together never ever mix well. And then you have
Speaker 1: the kids who are the ones who face the consequences
Speaker 1: of that. So anyways, Um, we got divorced and uh
Speaker 1: I left the house and angry, resentful. Um. Was there
Speaker 1: one side that wanted the divorce more than the other
Speaker 1: or I think both of us looking back on it
Speaker 1: now wanted it. I think Nikki is a different uh
Speaker 1: person than I am, and she would rather have fixed it,
Speaker 1: um and stayed together, but for the wrong reasons for
Speaker 1: our son, UM. And so looking back on it, yes,
Speaker 1: the answer to the question is yes, UM. But I
Speaker 1: was the one who UM was a little bit more
Speaker 1: UM angry, bitter, blame shifting, Um. It was all her
Speaker 1: fault uh and an unwillingness to take a look at
Speaker 1: my side. UM. And I think one of the things
Speaker 1: that I did, which is a mistake that I wouldn't
Speaker 1: recommend to anybody, UM, was that I called a lawyer first. UH.
Speaker 1: And UM, you know, I sat with him and I
Speaker 1: told him what I wanted, and that was, you know,
Speaker 1: basically the cliff note version of it was I wanted
Speaker 1: to destroy Nikki uh and show the world how, you know,
Speaker 1: how I perceived her. Um. And he gladly took my
Speaker 1: retainer and he a week later sent me a game plan, uh,
Speaker 1: novel on how we were going to do it. Uh.
Speaker 1: And it was exactly what I wanted to hear, or
Speaker 1: thought I wanted to hear. And I was on a plane.
Speaker 1: I kept it for a week for some reason, I
Speaker 1: didn't read it. And I was on a plane coming
Speaker 1: back from l A on a red eye to Florida,
Speaker 1: and I pulled it out and I read it and
Speaker 1: I opened it and I got two pages into it.
Speaker 1: And uh, I don't know what it was at that time,
Speaker 1: at that moment um, but it was the first time
Speaker 1: in a long time that I was honest and I
Speaker 1: was you know, I I saw things clearly. I got
Speaker 1: this you know, gut feeling, UM. And part of it
Speaker 1: was my experience with my parents who had a high
Speaker 1: conflict divorce wore the roses in the eighties. You know,
Speaker 1: there was one way of doing it, and that was
Speaker 1: just like the movie UM. And I was and my
Speaker 1: siblings were trapped in the middle of it, and we
Speaker 1: ended up getting the emotional bill, or get having to
Speaker 1: pay the emotional bill for something we had no choice,
Speaker 1: and we didn't order the restaurant, we didn't order the wine,
Speaker 1: food anything. UM. And I was able to tap into
Speaker 1: that experience on that plane that night. UH. And I
Speaker 1: also came to that real understanding and awareness that there
Speaker 1: is no way in the history of relationships, UM, that
Speaker 1: it can be one person's fault. And so I called
Speaker 1: the lawyer on Monday. UM said thank you, but no
Speaker 1: thank you, And then I made Then I made the
Speaker 1: second call, which should have been my first one, that
Speaker 1: if you're listening and you're going through a divorce, I
Speaker 1: called the therapist UM. And I also, UH have been
Speaker 1: sober for quite a long time, and I called my
Speaker 1: sponsor and I started working on the emotional side UM
Speaker 1: and tried to clean up, and for the first time
Speaker 1: in that process, it wasn't about Nikki. It wasn't about
Speaker 1: what she did. Um. This was my side of the street. Um.
Speaker 1: And shockingly, it didn't take that long for me to
Speaker 1: come to the sobering no pun intended uh conclusion that
Speaker 1: I wouldn't want to be married to me either. You know,
Speaker 1: I wasn't the man, I wasn't the father. I wasn't
Speaker 1: showing up in this life the way that I literally
Speaker 1: thought I was. Uh and so um. Anyways, that's the
Speaker 1: you know, emotional side that we and then NICKI was
Speaker 1: doing that work too. Thank you for for sharing that.
Speaker 1: But also when you got to that realization, was there
Speaker 1: a part of you that was like, wait, Nikki, let's
Speaker 1: try to fix this. Absolutely not. It didn't change um
Speaker 1: that Nicky and I. I mean that was clear. You
Speaker 1: know that nick and I were just not put you know,
Speaker 1: we were put on this earth for one reason, and
Speaker 1: that was to make a beautiful child. Um. And so,
Speaker 1: but what I did do was I called her. After
Speaker 1: I called the lawyer and I said thank you, but
Speaker 1: no thank you. I called her and I said, NICKI,
Speaker 1: I just need some time. I'm not in any space
Speaker 1: to you know, move forward, not that that we're not
Speaker 1: moving forward, but to go into this you know, business
Speaker 1: legal whatever you want to call it, um space. And
Speaker 1: you know, to her, to her credit and ace, she
Speaker 1: gave me that time she should take as much time
Speaker 1: as you need. Um. And so she then went on
Speaker 1: and did some work on herself with therapist I did,
Speaker 1: and uh, and then I came to her and I
Speaker 1: called her and and you know, about a month later,
Speaker 1: maybe it wasn't that long, but asked her to coffee
Speaker 1: and sat her down, and uh, for the first and
Speaker 1: only time, I think, uh, even to this day, UM,
Speaker 1: we had an authentic, uh intimate moment where I apologized
Speaker 1: to her and uh you know she did too, and
Speaker 1: she she apologized me back. And look, it didn't turn
Speaker 1: into her happy divorce right after that, but all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, there was like a weight lifted off of
Speaker 1: both of her chest and there was some room, um
Speaker 1: to move. It wasn't just this focus of you know,
Speaker 1: bitterness and resentment, and and then it made the process
Speaker 1: that the process wasn't easy from there, it just was
Speaker 1: it was a lot simpler, um. And uh, you know
Speaker 1: that that was the turning point and the next question,
Speaker 1: I asked her what she does she have any problem
Speaker 1: with joint custody you know, of our son everything, and
Speaker 1: she said absolutely not. I said, Nikki, all the other stuff,
Speaker 1: you know, we can work on. You know that's the
Speaker 1: easy part. Um. But you know, from that moment to
Speaker 1: where we are fourteen years later, if if you had
Speaker 1: told me or her fourteen years ago that we would
Speaker 1: have the life and the relationship we have today and
Speaker 1: the co authors of a book and live and travel together,
Speaker 1: and have we lived seven houses down from each other. Um,
Speaker 1: you know she's remarried. I'm remarried. Everybody we go on
Speaker 1: family vacations and we would have said, you're out of
Speaker 1: your mind. You know. It just was so we just
Speaker 1: wanted to be in the same room together, um, and
Speaker 1: be able to, you know, go to Asher's sporting events
Speaker 1: or his plays at school, and not have him have
Speaker 1: to as he's walking over to his parents, who are
Speaker 1: sitting apart from each other, like play in his mind,
Speaker 1: because this is what I had to do. Okay. I
Speaker 1: think I went over to mom last time. UM, do
Speaker 1: you I have to go over to dad, you know,
Speaker 1: because I don't want to make non feel bad or
Speaker 1: I don't want to make Dad feel And that's the
Speaker 1: kind of stuff that goes on in kid's heads when
Speaker 1: their parents, you know, are in this you know, high
Speaker 1: high conflict situation. So that was the goal. And then,
Speaker 1: you know, so a lot of it was faking until
Speaker 1: we made it. Like we would sit at Asher's events
Speaker 1: and you know, if if she were sitting here, she'd
Speaker 1: probably say the same thing. But she was the last
Speaker 1: person I wanted to sit next to. She was the
Speaker 1: last person that I wanted to smile, you know. And
Speaker 1: because there was still that emotional stuff, there was that
Speaker 1: still that you know, washing machine inside of me. Of
Speaker 1: It's not like it all just disappeared, um, but eventually
Speaker 1: it just became more natural. And what do you because
Speaker 1: I feel like that's the part where I'm struggling with
Speaker 1: the most, is like biting my my lip because there's
Speaker 1: so many things I want to say, and I would, God,
Speaker 1: I would give anything to have that lunch or whatever
Speaker 1: that you you said you had, um to have that
Speaker 1: just like an apology and the you know, and for
Speaker 1: just like from a really honest and true place, like
Speaker 1: it's just that like broke my heart you said that,
Speaker 1: because that would just be like everything um, and it's
Speaker 1: like but I just don't think I'll ever really get that,
Speaker 1: which is just the the acceptance that I have to
Speaker 1: now accept um. And so it's um moving like moving
Speaker 1: going down the other road of Okay, that's not going
Speaker 1: to actually happen. So now I have to try to
Speaker 1: be around someone and that and it's like we're trying
Speaker 1: and doing the very best we can, but it's there's
Speaker 1: still so many times when I want to be like
Speaker 1: I want to say something, and and it's you know,
Speaker 1: holding myself back because I'm like, okay, what we have
Speaker 1: right now, we're as cordial as we can be, and
Speaker 1: and you know, we're really just communicating about the kids.
Speaker 1: But when I hear that, you know, you guys are
Speaker 1: going on family trips, it's like, yeah, that seems like
Speaker 1: the farthest thing that would ever happen or even be
Speaker 1: like a friend or I could fight in or or
Speaker 1: trust again. You know. So it's like yeah, and that's
Speaker 1: such a good point because and this is where you know,
Speaker 1: when we tell our story, even in the book, is
Speaker 1: we want to be very intentional and let people know
Speaker 1: that we get it. Like again, if you told us
Speaker 1: fourteen years ago that we've been doing this just like you,
Speaker 1: I would answer never, you know, I I would have
Speaker 1: said never. And you know, but because of the commitment
Speaker 1: to our son, and I think that gets lost a
Speaker 1: lot of times and divorces and it's not done intentionally,
Speaker 1: or they don't premeditate how they're gonna do it, or
Speaker 1: my parents didn't. But these emotions, right, these these negative
Speaker 1: hodgepodge melting pot of emotions sort of get the best
Speaker 1: of people and they make decisions that aren't really in
Speaker 1: the best interests of the kids. And you know, not
Speaker 1: to be inauthentic, but there were plenty of times where
Speaker 1: I bit my tongue. I wanted to say some there
Speaker 1: are plenty of times with Nikki bit her tongue, right.
Speaker 1: But but you know, now it's been a little easier
Speaker 1: where we don't necessarily have to buy our time because
Speaker 1: we can be honest with each other. You know, there
Speaker 1: there are still things we still fight, you know, we
Speaker 1: it's not you know, this land of like, oh that's
Speaker 1: why I'm divorced you and okay, exactly, And it's a
Speaker 1: lot easier. It's a lot easier to accept when she's
Speaker 1: my best friend than even you know, but my ex
Speaker 1: wife in the beginning. But when people listen to this
Speaker 1: um and you're going through it, it's really truly um
Speaker 1: an understanding that we've been there and we could never
Speaker 1: have imagined this, and it might not happen for everybody,
Speaker 1: but just you know, maybe hold space uh in there
Speaker 1: for and some curiosity to the possibility for sure, and
Speaker 1: I and I do, I do get that, and it's
Speaker 1: just I think we're I'm kind of struggling as I'm
Speaker 1: still in the grieving process of it. And when you know,
Speaker 1: we talk, he's very much like, get over it. This
Speaker 1: is our reality, and I'm like, but I'm not there yet,
Speaker 1: Like this is still I'm not that light switch that
Speaker 1: can just be like, oh, yeah, this is our reality.
Speaker 1: I'm over it. Nor would I ever say for someone
Speaker 1: else to get over it like that to me is
Speaker 1: just like there's no empathy in that. So that's where
Speaker 1: I feel just like, um not understood. I feel alone.
Speaker 1: And but again it's those are all the things that
Speaker 1: now I have to process solo and with my therapist
Speaker 1: and friends. But it's just it feels very business like
Speaker 1: and not to me is just like that's where I'm
Speaker 1: emotional about it because I never thought it would be
Speaker 1: like a business relationship like that, you know, where it's
Speaker 1: and it's like what about the there's how one person
Speaker 1: can be so business like and the other one's like
Speaker 1: very emotional. So obviously I'm you know, on the emotional
Speaker 1: side of it, but or I'm like, but how can
Speaker 1: someone be so business like? Right? Right? And that's you
Speaker 1: know unfortunately, uh, you know, as people with a different
Speaker 1: body part between our lives, is that that is sort
Speaker 1: of you know, an m o of you know, at
Speaker 1: least for me. I don't know, I don't want to
Speaker 1: put all men, you know, sort of in this bucket
Speaker 1: for but for me and one of my you know,
Speaker 1: patterns in life is to just be business like right
Speaker 1: and did not feel and you know, to not um
Speaker 1: you know. I was always told as a kid that
Speaker 1: I was too sensitive, uh, and I took that as
Speaker 1: being bad, right. I took that as a bad thing
Speaker 1: or that I wasn't mad enough. So I think that
Speaker 1: one of the things also is for me was to
Speaker 1: be able to you know, accept that. And I wish
Speaker 1: I could say that I learned that fourteen years ago,
Speaker 1: but I just I just have learned that recently, but
Speaker 1: you know, you know, one of the things that that
Speaker 1: I did is probably um just like what you're talking
Speaker 1: about is be able to to disassociate the emotions uh
Speaker 1: or not feel and just replace that with business like
Speaker 1: And that doesn't mean that the emotions weren't there, but
Speaker 1: it's a way. It was a way for me to
Speaker 1: protect emotions underneath and not have to deal with it.
Speaker 1: So that's like I would love to get your input,
Speaker 1: like as you know the guy, because he was saying
Speaker 1: I was being cold, and when when I when I
Speaker 1: UM shut something off, it's very I'm like, hey, what's up?
Speaker 1: Because I like it's either that or I'm gonna be
Speaker 1: like bawling crying, being like I you know, why did
Speaker 1: this happen? I didn't want this? So it's like finding
Speaker 1: that in between for me has been really difficult because
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm not meaning to be coold, but this
Speaker 1: is like what you get now. I don't like I
Speaker 1: I'm not there like hey how are you? You know?
Speaker 1: Like I am around the kids, but when it's just us,
Speaker 1: I'm like, hey, what's up? Why are you cold? I
Speaker 1: don't I don't you don't want to know what I
Speaker 1: want to say exactly and that you know, that's about
Speaker 1: owning you know, the anger, you know, is emotion for me,
Speaker 1: though anger is also a secondary emotion right of you know,
Speaker 1: protecting something underneath it. But one thing that I had
Speaker 1: to do was and still have to do today, is
Speaker 1: own my anger. And it is an emotion and it
Speaker 1: is something that needs to be processed, especially for me.
Speaker 1: I mean, if not, it comes out in the wrong way,
Speaker 1: and you know, it comes out as saying things I
Speaker 1: don't want to say and doing all that. But um,
Speaker 1: when you look at, um, the relationship with Nick and
Speaker 1: I in the beginning, um, it almost had to be
Speaker 1: uh a dynamic of or it would have been a
Speaker 1: dynamic of our old patterns and our old dynamic of
Speaker 1: throwing the emotional boomerang back and forth, right throwing the
Speaker 1: uh you know mean spirited or cold or whatever the
Speaker 1: dynamic was, and and just throwing that ball back and
Speaker 1: forth and black forth. Now what we learned to do,
Speaker 1: and sometimes I did it, I think most of the
Speaker 1: time she did it, but was just dropped the baseball
Speaker 1: and not throw it back, you know, and learn how to.
Speaker 1: This isn't gonna go anywhere. This is we we've learned.
Speaker 1: We played this movie. This is why, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I had to apologize the other day to them because
Speaker 1: I was, you know, just let my emotions get in
Speaker 1: the middle of what I thought should be happening. And
Speaker 1: then I was like, I'm sorry for letting what I
Speaker 1: think should be going on or happening. It was regarding
Speaker 1: the kids. I was like, I projected how I'm feeling
Speaker 1: right now onto the situation, and I'm sorry. So I
Speaker 1: was proud of myself for owning it. But at the
Speaker 1: same time, it's just like, but I didn't want to
Speaker 1: be in this situation, but I left part of right. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean that, yeah, and that's what. And I also
Speaker 1: wanted to say when when that I forgot to say
Speaker 1: at the beginning is that I am not a lawyer,
Speaker 1: I am not a doctor, I'm not a therapist. I
Speaker 1: didn't stay at a holiday in express last night. So
Speaker 1: you know, this is just you know, my human experience. Uh.
Speaker 1: And it seemed to work, you know with Nick and I. So,
Speaker 1: so this stuff I'm saying doesn't have any sort of
Speaker 1: basis in uh, you know, any sort of studies or anything.
Speaker 1: But what makes it? You're like, in the book like,
Speaker 1: what are some things that will be really helpful for people,
Speaker 1: um to have that happy divorce. Yeah. I think the
Speaker 1: main thing, um is um putting our son first. And
Speaker 1: I think that that you know, gets thrown around a
Speaker 1: lot um. And and for Nicky and I looking back
Speaker 1: on it, we didn't have this brilliant uh strategy at
Speaker 1: the beginning. But as you probably can relate, when you
Speaker 1: have a decision to make when you're in that divorce
Speaker 1: or divorced or early divorced uh phase. Uh, you know,
Speaker 1: and you have the simple math equation of two plus two, right, Uh,
Speaker 1: you could have three different answers, right, one for me,
Speaker 1: one for Nikki, and then one for our son. And
Speaker 1: what we've tried to do was always go with the
Speaker 1: one that was best for Asher, that equalled for UM,
Speaker 1: and that included who we dated, who we brought around him, everything.
Speaker 1: And there was you know, one story uh that we
Speaker 1: got divorced. Um. Nikki you know, sort of knew what
Speaker 1: I was gonna do, you know, sort of, so my
Speaker 1: wild oads if you will be the you know, uh
Speaker 1: sort of d bag and and date around and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, she asked me. She called me one day
Speaker 1: and she said UM, can you do me a favor
Speaker 1: and not bring um, Mercedes diamond whatever, crystal crystal, Gucci
Speaker 1: you know around ash and so crystals, Gucci diamonds out there.
Speaker 1: We're not trying to type. Yeah, yeah, no offense. Um.
Speaker 1: And so she asked me that, and and the ego.
Speaker 1: The first response was, who the hell are you to
Speaker 1: tell me who I can and cannot bring around my son. Uh.
Speaker 1: And there was a lot of those sort of first reactions.
Speaker 1: Now I didn't say it because you know, what I've
Speaker 1: what I learned to do and I still practice and
Speaker 1: I try to do, is just to pause right before
Speaker 1: and not go off of that first uh you know,
Speaker 1: uh gut checker or that first reaction. And then I
Speaker 1: thought about it. Uh. And she was right. I mean,
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, that was what equals
Speaker 1: for Frasher. For for to have him a revolving door
Speaker 1: of women in and out of his life with his dad, Um,
Speaker 1: what would not be good for him because he's already
Speaker 1: got this trauma of his parents getting divorced. Now he
Speaker 1: sees this other side. UM. And so I said, you're right,
Speaker 1: and I won't do it. And so you know, there
Speaker 1: it was a year before I brought a woman around
Speaker 1: and introduced him, and I you know, gave Nikki UM,
Speaker 1: talked to her and explained to her how was gonna
Speaker 1: happen and when it was gonna happen. And so that's
Speaker 1: that That's just one example of many, but that's I
Speaker 1: think the uh you know, when you have that all
Speaker 1: those decisions to make. Is what we did is we
Speaker 1: really put as her first, and we continue to do
Speaker 1: and we also, you know, part of a happy divorce,
Speaker 1: uh is a happy child, right, and his happiness and
Speaker 1: we gave him space, um, you know, to to express himself.
Speaker 1: And that's one thing that didn't happen uh in in
Speaker 1: my life and with my parents is it was sort
Speaker 1: of the event, right. It was this event mom and
Speaker 1: dad are getting divorced. You know. They set us all
Speaker 1: down in the living room, um, and that was it,
Speaker 1: and there was no space or opportunity for us to
Speaker 1: express ourselves or to ask questions or to you know,
Speaker 1: talk about how we're feeling. Um. And so as for me, uh,
Speaker 1: I was like this is bad. I then internalized that
Speaker 1: and I thought to myself, well you must be bad.
Speaker 1: And so one thing that we've done with Asher is
Speaker 1: to give him that space and that opportunity to express
Speaker 1: himself if he wants to stay another night at mom's house,
Speaker 1: even fourteen years later. I mean the beginning was a
Speaker 1: little harder. But for you know, yeah, fine, spent another
Speaker 1: night at your mom's house. Right, It's not about us, um.
Speaker 1: And if something's bothering, you talk about it. Um. And
Speaker 1: and so that's that that that's a component of it.
Speaker 1: But the other thing is people also, the main thing
Speaker 1: is not the main thing. I talked about other people
Speaker 1: in our lives, uh and and and what's best for
Speaker 1: our son is to bring people into his life who
Speaker 1: understand our relationship, what we're trying to accomplish, and not
Speaker 1: become sort of a wedge that sometimes happens. Um. You know,
Speaker 1: it's easy. It's easier when it's just Nick and I
Speaker 1: in a bicycle. You had two more wheels to it,
Speaker 1: you know, and it becomes a car and they all
Speaker 1: have to work together. Do you find that you guys
Speaker 1: have more respect for each other now than when you
Speaker 1: were married? No question? Yeah, because it sounds like it
Speaker 1: sounds like it, you know, and I'm like, wow, that
Speaker 1: would be really cool, because I think there was so
Speaker 1: much resentment for me and my ex with each other,
Speaker 1: that it would be nice to want to get to
Speaker 1: that place where he actually looks at me and doesn't
Speaker 1: resent me or hate me and vice versa, you know,
Speaker 1: and we can just have just respect because we're putting
Speaker 1: the kids first, but also because we are respecting each other,
Speaker 1: you know, better than we did when we were married. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's the turning point. I mean, at some point
Speaker 1: I can't even pinpoint when that happened, but that was
Speaker 1: when the faking it turned into making it right and
Speaker 1: it became this authentic, real relationship where it wasn't forced.
Speaker 1: Uh you know today, Um, Nikki, you know is has
Speaker 1: always been except for you know, a little time out there,
Speaker 1: but you know she's always had my back. She's always
Speaker 1: seen me for who I am and love me for
Speaker 1: who I am. Um, I never you know, there's a
Speaker 1: peer there. I didn't see it, but it can't. It's
Speaker 1: sort of had come full circle and now you know
Speaker 1: she is when she tells me things and and gives
Speaker 1: me advice or calls me out on my nonsense, which
Speaker 1: she will do uh freely and oftenly. Um, there's not
Speaker 1: that who you know, there's not that stuff that I
Speaker 1: would get when she would tell me that before, like
Speaker 1: the you know, uh intellect trying to not take it
Speaker 1: in and to not listen to her. And it's just
Speaker 1: a different reaction. So for the newly divorced couples, I mean,
Speaker 1: I kind of like what you said, just take it
Speaker 1: till you make it in a way where it's like
Speaker 1: we just because there's nothing has come good out, nothing
Speaker 1: has come out well with you know, him being mean
Speaker 1: or me saying something snarky. So it's like it's just
Speaker 1: being nice, accepting this what it is, what it is,
Speaker 1: and hopefully by time then your emotions just start to
Speaker 1: catch up to that, right, and then your life happens.
Speaker 1: I mean that's the other thing, right is, as the
Speaker 1: time went on, it became clearer and clearer to both
Speaker 1: of us that this was the right decision. But it's
Speaker 1: also she got remarried, uh, and she started seeing that, Okay,
Speaker 1: this is what it looks like. And then I would see, uh,
Speaker 1: how she looked at her husband now, and it was
Speaker 1: clear she never looked at me like that, you know.
Speaker 1: I mean, so she's so time and space, you know,
Speaker 1: creates I think a little clarity at least it did
Speaker 1: for us to be able to see why it happened
Speaker 1: and why you know, why it happened When you're when
Speaker 1: you're in it and you got all those emotions, it's
Speaker 1: it's hard to take it a look outside and to
Speaker 1: see what things really are. Um. And so the you know,
Speaker 1: thinking if you make it uh is also Uh it
Speaker 1: sounds a little flippant like saying it like that, but
Speaker 1: I get it. Yeah, at the same time, you have
Speaker 1: to deal with the emotional stuff. You have to deal
Speaker 1: with that, and and the other thing we did, which
Speaker 1: I think is important. I don't know if they give
Speaker 1: rewards for people who get divorced quick like there's no
Speaker 1: it's not a race, Like, there's no award for getting
Speaker 1: it over quickly and getting this man with this woman
Speaker 1: out of your life quickly. But an expensive lawyer bill
Speaker 1: a dark cloud that's gonna follow you around the rest
Speaker 1: of your life, and most importantly, a dark cloud that's
Speaker 1: gonna follow your kids around, um, you know, for the
Speaker 1: rest of their lives. So we took our time, you know,
Speaker 1: and like I said, Nikki was very grace graceful with
Speaker 1: her with allowing me that and and uh, it took
Speaker 1: us which we figured out the whole sort of business
Speaker 1: side of it. After that coffee shop. We've out at
Speaker 1: that coffee shop I don't know five, six, seven more
Speaker 1: times and actually just said okay, where can we where
Speaker 1: what can we agree upon? And we ended up doing
Speaker 1: the whole a divorce, uh settlement or whatever you wanna
Speaker 1: call it. Uh, they're at a coffee shop. And then
Speaker 1: we handed it to the lawyers and said, draw it up.
Speaker 1: This is you know, that's where the business side of
Speaker 1: it does. And you know the business. You know, lawyers
Speaker 1: aren't mental health providers. They aren't therapists. Uh. They get
Speaker 1: paid more uh than therapists. I remember my lawyer that
Speaker 1: they do. I love my therapist. Jason shot out, yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: and probably my lawyer. I called her one day and
Speaker 1: she said, how are you feeling? And I said, Nancy,
Speaker 1: with all due respect, and I don't mean this to
Speaker 1: be you know, you know what, uh, but you're you're
Speaker 1: six hundred dollars an hour my lawyers. If I want
Speaker 1: to talk about my feelings, right, I can go to
Speaker 1: my therapists and get five sessions, yes and present. And
Speaker 1: so you know, the the time that we took um
Speaker 1: was was a big uh foundation. I think of why
Speaker 1: we are able to sit here on your show and
Speaker 1: talk about our happy divorce. Well, I love that. And
Speaker 1: do what about the women, because I know there's a
Speaker 1: lot out there that still don't have that closure or
Speaker 1: that apology. What would you say to them to to
Speaker 1: move forward and not stay stuck in that wanting it
Speaker 1: and holding out for it? And do you think they
Speaker 1: will come around? I hope that people. And again, this
Speaker 1: isn't something you know. I wish I could say I
Speaker 1: learned this a long time ago, but this is just
Speaker 1: a recent thing. Is expectations of somebody else um, and
Speaker 1: expecting something um is just as it's just a premeditated
Speaker 1: setup for a resentment. Right, it's just um because it
Speaker 1: might come, it might ever come. But being able to
Speaker 1: take responsibility, uh, for your happiness, for your change, for
Speaker 1: your life, I think we'll go a long way because
Speaker 1: for me, and I'm sure Nikki would say the same
Speaker 1: thing is sitting around waiting if she had waited for
Speaker 1: me to do X and do that, That's why we
Speaker 1: know we got divorced, right, because it was always if
Speaker 1: only if only Ben would do this, if only Nikki
Speaker 1: would do this? Uh? You know and so yes, you know,
Speaker 1: to to the women listening, it would be great. Uh
Speaker 1: if everybody could apologize and do what Nicki and I
Speaker 1: did and it which it wasn't just me apologizing, you know,
Speaker 1: I wasn't the spirit the spiritual giant in this uh.
Speaker 1: You know, in this equation. Nikki did the same thing
Speaker 1: for me. But it wasn't an expectation. You know, I
Speaker 1: didn't go into that coffee shop with an expectation of
Speaker 1: her doing anything back to me or you know, giving
Speaker 1: me anything back except for just to get this off
Speaker 1: my chest. You know this was for me. Um. So.
Speaker 1: But but I think the expectations, um, or the wanting
Speaker 1: something or needing something, um, yes, I understand that people
Speaker 1: want that and need that, but there's no way that
Speaker 1: anybody can ever control that. But you can't. We're also
Speaker 1: determined or convinced are happy. Divorce doesn't have to be
Speaker 1: the you know land of rainbow waterfalls and unicorns that
Speaker 1: we live in. But if you're able to not hand
Speaker 1: the kids the emotional divorce or bill for the divorce,
Speaker 1: and you know, find some sort of happiness and peacefulness
Speaker 1: and fulfillment in your life, um, regardless of the other person. Right, Uh,
Speaker 1: it still can be a happy divorce. You know. My
Speaker 1: therapist said the funniest thing to me, well, not the
Speaker 1: funniest thing, but it clicked. It was I was trying
Speaker 1: to explain to her, you know what I was wanting,
Speaker 1: and and she goes, Janna, you're walking into home depot
Speaker 1: and asking for bread. You're not going to get bed
Speaker 1: at home depot. And I was just like, Amy, holy crap,
Speaker 1: that is like, that makes so much sense to me
Speaker 1: out of any everything that you just said to me.
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm literally walking into home depot asking
Speaker 1: for bread and milk and I'm not gonna get it.
Speaker 1: But it maybe you'll go to the next home deep
Speaker 1: boil thinking that they'll have it, or maybe you go
Speaker 1: to Lows because maybe the you know, they sell something
Speaker 1: at home being right. And that's the other thing about
Speaker 1: focusing on on somebody else that was so important that
Speaker 1: Nikki and I did is we focused on our side
Speaker 1: of the street. And and that process was hard because
Speaker 1: it doesn't it wasn't natural for me or Nikki. But
Speaker 1: you know, even looking over there and going look at
Speaker 1: look at her. That's a little dirty over there. But
Speaker 1: you know, focusing on on what I can do and
Speaker 1: what I can change and take responsibility for it. Um.
Speaker 1: And the other thing is the poison I realized that
Speaker 1: I was taking and Nicky was, you know, probably doing
Speaker 1: the same thing. The poison uh of this resentment is
Speaker 1: anger and all this other stuff and hoping that Nikki died,
Speaker 1: Like what kind of life really is that where you're
Speaker 1: you're sitting there, you know, taking poison and you know,
Speaker 1: not being fulfilled in life, hoping the other person suffers
Speaker 1: and so that you know, that's that that that was
Speaker 1: at the end of our marriage and up until uh,
Speaker 1: you know that that moment you know, in the coffee
Speaker 1: shop and I want to you know, be you know, authentic.
Speaker 1: It just didn't you know, snap our fingers after that
Speaker 1: coffee shop meeting and everything was great. No, for sure,
Speaker 1: I get that. But seriously, then, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for coming on, um, everyone that's listening, Get Our Happy Divorce.
Speaker 1: That's going to be UM my next book that I read.
Speaker 1: And UM, just thank you for coming on bringing your
Speaker 1: perspective and UM, yeah, I really really really appreciate it.
Speaker 1: I appreciate you sharing your platform with us and I
Speaker 1: and I you know, I know where you are and
Speaker 1: I know where people who are going through it are
Speaker 1: and and it's a terrible traumatic experience, but it's not
Speaker 1: one that has to haunt or you know, suffer. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's one of my favorite expressions
Speaker 1: of life. And is it. Pain is mandatory, but suffering
Speaker 1: is optional, you know. And I think with divorce, that
Speaker 1: is no truer statement. Uh is Uh, there's no truer
Speaker 1: statement because it's painful. It is a terrible, hopeless feeling
Speaker 1: and guilt ridden and all the other stuff with the
Speaker 1: kids and and but the suffering part of it can
Speaker 1: be mitigated and uh, you know, and you can have
Speaker 1: a happy divorce, and you can have a happy divorce.
Speaker 1: There you go. Thanks then, appreciate you, Thank you, I
Speaker 1: appreciate you. Um. Well, I'm optimistic now with uh, with
Speaker 1: talking with him, and yeah, I think time kind of
Speaker 1: helps everything. I mean, let's be honest, a few months ago,
Speaker 1: I couldn't feel myself off before and get out of that,
Speaker 1: so I think, um, we're all moving in the right direction.
Speaker 1: And I got to keep a positive outlook, especially for
Speaker 1: those babies. And I'm going to go now sit outside
Speaker 1: because in three hours Jolie is going to come home
Speaker 1: on the bus and I want to make sure I'm
Speaker 1: not late, and the bus stop is right in front
Speaker 1: of my house, so I'm a psycho mom Um. I'll
Speaker 1: see you guys next week