1
00:00:01,920 --> 00:00:06,880
Speaker 1: Wind Down with Jane Kramer and I heard radio podcast. Okay,

2
00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:12,440
Speaker 1: so going live today on the actual day. Today was

3
00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:14,840
Speaker 1: Jolie's first day taking the school bus, and I have

4
00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:20,080
Speaker 1: to tell you guys, it was so freaking hard. Um.

5
00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:25,799
Speaker 1: She just had this like independence, which I just I

6
00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:29,240
Speaker 1: love that about her. But at the same time, it

7
00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:31,440
Speaker 1: was so easy for her to like wave by to me,

8
00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:33,519
Speaker 1: and it kind of broke my heart. Not that I

9
00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:35,280
Speaker 1: wanted her to be like crying, obviously, I want her

10
00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:38,040
Speaker 1: to be strong and like super independent, but I was

11
00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:41,560
Speaker 1: so happy for because she was super happy. Um. But

12
00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:43,360
Speaker 1: and I did not cry in front of her. But

13
00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:46,120
Speaker 1: the second that she got in the bus and I

14
00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,400
Speaker 1: waved by to her, I straight up when the house

15
00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:54,120
Speaker 1: and bawled my eyes out so um that it was

16
00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:58,440
Speaker 1: really hard. Um, but it was. Yeah, I'm I'm counting

17
00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:00,800
Speaker 1: down the minutes until the bus comes back in a

18
00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:04,040
Speaker 1: few hours. Mark, did you cry the first time? But

19
00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:07,480
Speaker 1: that happened. It's so funny. We don't have buses out

20
00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,119
Speaker 1: here in southern California. I mean that's not true. We do,

21
00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,520
Speaker 1: but it's not standard and it's not common. It's only um,

22
00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:16,920
Speaker 1: certain areas get them. So no our kids have never

23
00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:19,600
Speaker 1: gone away on a bus from us before, Like, can

24
00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:22,600
Speaker 1: you even imagine how that would feel? Like yes, yes,

25
00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:26,440
Speaker 1: but also like you're excited because she's not freaking out

26
00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,360
Speaker 1: and crying. Yeah, but you're so sad and all you

27
00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:31,119
Speaker 1: want to do is freak out and cry. Yeah. I get.

28
00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:33,319
Speaker 1: I totally get what you're going through. It was so

29
00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:36,320
Speaker 1: hard and I you know, obviously my ex was there

30
00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:38,920
Speaker 1: because you know, some big day, and he asked it's

31
00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:40,320
Speaker 1: not his day to day, but he asked if he

32
00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,080
Speaker 1: could come, and I was like absolutely, like she's gonna,

33
00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,080
Speaker 1: you know, love both of us there. And then I

34
00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,040
Speaker 1: think like seeing him too was just another I kind

35
00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:51,120
Speaker 1: of said that there's just a lot of transitions going

36
00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:54,160
Speaker 1: on right now, and it was just it was just

37
00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:57,880
Speaker 1: very emotional, like the whole whole thing, like so many

38
00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,960
Speaker 1: things that have has happened just in the last month,

39
00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:03,360
Speaker 1: like with her going to school was being finalized. Like

40
00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:09,040
Speaker 1: it was just like this um release of emotions and

41
00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,000
Speaker 1: it was really hard. But my thing is is like,

42
00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:14,880
Speaker 1: you know, when she gets off the bus and like

43
00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:17,840
Speaker 1: how does she know where her classroom is? And is

44
00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:20,120
Speaker 1: she okay? Is she crying right now in school? And

45
00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:22,240
Speaker 1: you know, she's probably running around in circles having the

46
00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:24,680
Speaker 1: best time of her life. But I'm like, she's probably

47
00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:28,680
Speaker 1: in a corner somewhere like crying. It's so good for

48
00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,880
Speaker 1: her and for you. It is. It's good for everybody,

49
00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:34,320
Speaker 1: but I get it. And then the saddest thing was

50
00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:40,720
Speaker 1: Jay's He's like jojo jojo and just like crying for her.

51
00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,960
Speaker 1: I was just like, ah, but yeah, it's it's um.

52
00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,720
Speaker 1: The band aid has been peeled, and so now it's

53
00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:51,519
Speaker 1: just time to get back on that regular routine. And

54
00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:56,280
Speaker 1: I'm super pumped because we have Benjamin Health Fond coming

55
00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,280
Speaker 1: on and he has a book out called Our Happy Divorce,

56
00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:01,639
Speaker 1: and it's been really cool. I've I've appreciated so many

57
00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:03,560
Speaker 1: of you that have reached out to me on Instagram

58
00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,800
Speaker 1: and dm ng me and someone recommended his book and

59
00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:10,320
Speaker 1: so I've recently ordered it. Um. But I'm excited to

60
00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:13,079
Speaker 1: talk to him and about his journey because happy and

61
00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:16,520
Speaker 1: divorce just don't really to me go hand in hand.

62
00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:21,720
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna I'm curious to hear how he got

63
00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:40,520
Speaker 1: to a happy divorce. So we'll be right back. Ben Hi, Hi,

64
00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:45,080
Speaker 1: how are you good? How are you? I'm so good. Um.

65
00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:47,360
Speaker 1: I Well, first of all, thank you so much for

66
00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:51,280
Speaker 1: coming on wine Down. I appreciate it. And you were

67
00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,920
Speaker 1: someone you were recommended because my I have like the

68
00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:58,640
Speaker 1: sweetest Instagram followers and they always are like sending me

69
00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:01,960
Speaker 1: inspirational thing things where things would make me laugh for

70
00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:05,440
Speaker 1: helpful people, and you were one of the names that

71
00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:09,280
Speaker 1: came up. And I remember reading or like I and

72
00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,080
Speaker 1: I ordered your book on Amazon. But I was like,

73
00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:16,040
Speaker 1: happy and divorce just don't seem to go together right now.

74
00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:18,200
Speaker 1: And so I'm like, I I need him on to

75
00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:22,040
Speaker 1: understand like how those two can can be, how there

76
00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:26,440
Speaker 1: is a happy divorce. So it really does. I'm like,

77
00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:28,960
Speaker 1: you know, I'm like I wouldn't wish a divorce on

78
00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:33,320
Speaker 1: like my worst enemy. Um, but can you just give

79
00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:35,920
Speaker 1: the listeners a little in me, like a little background

80
00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,080
Speaker 1: of who you are and where you're at in your

81
00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:44,480
Speaker 1: life and how this all came about? Yeah? So um

82
00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:49,440
Speaker 1: who am I? Who? Yeah? Who has been? That's actually

83
00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:54,680
Speaker 1: something that is an ever evolving uh answer. But um

84
00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:59,240
Speaker 1: my what ex wife and I Nikki, Um, we got

85
00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:03,080
Speaker 1: divorced for years ago. Uh And just like every sort

86
00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:07,200
Speaker 1: of I guess marriage ending, Uh, it doesn't end on

87
00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,800
Speaker 1: a winning streak. It doesn't end because everything's great. And

88
00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:13,039
Speaker 1: it's a process that and it wasn't for us that

89
00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:14,960
Speaker 1: we didn't wake up one day and say let's get divorced.

90
00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,200
Speaker 1: It was a uh you know, long process and all

91
00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:22,240
Speaker 1: the negative stuff that goes on, um uh with divorces

92
00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:24,799
Speaker 1: is you're dealing with the business decision but you're also

93
00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:30,760
Speaker 1: a business uh decisions but problems. You put the emotional side,

94
00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:33,240
Speaker 1: the emotional stuff on top of it, right, and those

95
00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,240
Speaker 1: two together never ever mix well. And then you have

96
00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,400
Speaker 1: the kids who are the ones who face the consequences

97
00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:43,560
Speaker 1: of that. So anyways, Um, we got divorced and uh

98
00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:48,520
Speaker 1: I left the house and angry, resentful. Um. Was there

99
00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:50,880
Speaker 1: one side that wanted the divorce more than the other

100
00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,440
Speaker 1: or I think both of us looking back on it

101
00:05:54,560 --> 00:06:00,000
Speaker 1: now wanted it. I think Nikki is a different uh

102
00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,120
Speaker 1: person than I am, and she would rather have fixed it,

103
00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,320
Speaker 1: um and stayed together, but for the wrong reasons for

104
00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:11,080
Speaker 1: our son, UM. And so looking back on it, yes,

105
00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,560
Speaker 1: the answer to the question is yes, UM. But I

106
00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:17,200
Speaker 1: was the one who UM was a little bit more

107
00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:23,880
Speaker 1: UM angry, bitter, blame shifting, Um. It was all her

108
00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:28,360
Speaker 1: fault uh and an unwillingness to take a look at

109
00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:30,560
Speaker 1: my side. UM. And I think one of the things

110
00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:32,680
Speaker 1: that I did, which is a mistake that I wouldn't

111
00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:38,240
Speaker 1: recommend to anybody, UM, was that I called a lawyer first. UH.

112
00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,719
Speaker 1: And UM, you know, I sat with him and I

113
00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:44,640
Speaker 1: told him what I wanted, and that was, you know,

114
00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,080
Speaker 1: basically the cliff note version of it was I wanted

115
00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:51,080
Speaker 1: to destroy Nikki uh and show the world how, you know,

116
00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,440
Speaker 1: how I perceived her. Um. And he gladly took my

117
00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:59,080
Speaker 1: retainer and he a week later sent me a game plan, uh,

118
00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,159
Speaker 1: novel on how we were going to do it. Uh.

119
00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,480
Speaker 1: And it was exactly what I wanted to hear, or

120
00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:06,720
Speaker 1: thought I wanted to hear. And I was on a plane.

121
00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:08,840
Speaker 1: I kept it for a week for some reason, I

122
00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:11,119
Speaker 1: didn't read it. And I was on a plane coming

123
00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,560
Speaker 1: back from l A on a red eye to Florida,

124
00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:18,000
Speaker 1: and I pulled it out and I read it and

125
00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,000
Speaker 1: I opened it and I got two pages into it.

126
00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:22,040
Speaker 1: And uh, I don't know what it was at that time,

127
00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:25,560
Speaker 1: at that moment um, but it was the first time

128
00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,120
Speaker 1: in a long time that I was honest and I

129
00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:30,720
Speaker 1: was you know, I I saw things clearly. I got

130
00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:34,760
Speaker 1: this you know, gut feeling, UM. And part of it

131
00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,080
Speaker 1: was my experience with my parents who had a high

132
00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:41,200
Speaker 1: conflict divorce wore the roses in the eighties. You know,

133
00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,080
Speaker 1: there was one way of doing it, and that was

134
00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,480
Speaker 1: just like the movie UM. And I was and my

135
00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:49,360
Speaker 1: siblings were trapped in the middle of it, and we

136
00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,840
Speaker 1: ended up getting the emotional bill, or get having to

137
00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,280
Speaker 1: pay the emotional bill for something we had no choice,

138
00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,400
Speaker 1: and we didn't order the restaurant, we didn't order the wine,

139
00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:01,960
Speaker 1: food anything. UM. And I was able to tap into

140
00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:05,480
Speaker 1: that experience on that plane that night. UH. And I

141
00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:10,200
Speaker 1: also came to that real understanding and awareness that there

142
00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:14,560
Speaker 1: is no way in the history of relationships, UM, that

143
00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:17,880
Speaker 1: it can be one person's fault. And so I called

144
00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:21,400
Speaker 1: the lawyer on Monday. UM said thank you, but no

145
00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:23,640
Speaker 1: thank you, And then I made Then I made the

146
00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,400
Speaker 1: second call, which should have been my first one, that

147
00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:28,880
Speaker 1: if you're listening and you're going through a divorce, I

148
00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:32,640
Speaker 1: called the therapist UM. And I also, UH have been

149
00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:34,600
Speaker 1: sober for quite a long time, and I called my

150
00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,680
Speaker 1: sponsor and I started working on the emotional side UM

151
00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,960
Speaker 1: and tried to clean up, and for the first time

152
00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:44,280
Speaker 1: in that process, it wasn't about Nikki. It wasn't about

153
00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:48,520
Speaker 1: what she did. Um. This was my side of the street. Um.

154
00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,760
Speaker 1: And shockingly, it didn't take that long for me to

155
00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:56,000
Speaker 1: come to the sobering no pun intended uh conclusion that

156
00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:58,280
Speaker 1: I wouldn't want to be married to me either. You know,

157
00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,360
Speaker 1: I wasn't the man, I wasn't the father. I wasn't

158
00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,880
Speaker 1: showing up in this life the way that I literally

159
00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:09,960
Speaker 1: thought I was. Uh and so um. Anyways, that's the

160
00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:11,920
Speaker 1: you know, emotional side that we and then NICKI was

161
00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:14,520
Speaker 1: doing that work too. Thank you for for sharing that.

162
00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:19,120
Speaker 1: But also when you got to that realization, was there

163
00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:21,720
Speaker 1: a part of you that was like, wait, Nikki, let's

164
00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:28,679
Speaker 1: try to fix this. Absolutely not. It didn't change um

165
00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:30,640
Speaker 1: that Nicky and I. I mean that was clear. You

166
00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:32,920
Speaker 1: know that nick and I were just not put you know,

167
00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:35,120
Speaker 1: we were put on this earth for one reason, and

168
00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:38,600
Speaker 1: that was to make a beautiful child. Um. And so,

169
00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:41,520
Speaker 1: but what I did do was I called her. After

170
00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:43,599
Speaker 1: I called the lawyer and I said thank you, but

171
00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:44,960
Speaker 1: no thank you. I called her and I said, NICKI,

172
00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,160
Speaker 1: I just need some time. I'm not in any space

173
00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,000
Speaker 1: to you know, move forward, not that that we're not

174
00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:53,439
Speaker 1: moving forward, but to go into this you know, business

175
00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,200
Speaker 1: legal whatever you want to call it, um space. And

176
00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:00,360
Speaker 1: you know, to her, to her credit and ace, she

177
00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:02,000
Speaker 1: gave me that time she should take as much time

178
00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:06,200
Speaker 1: as you need. Um. And so she then went on

179
00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:08,720
Speaker 1: and did some work on herself with therapist I did,

180
00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:11,880
Speaker 1: and uh, and then I came to her and I

181
00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:14,400
Speaker 1: called her and and you know, about a month later,

182
00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:17,680
Speaker 1: maybe it wasn't that long, but asked her to coffee

183
00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:21,320
Speaker 1: and sat her down, and uh, for the first and

184
00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:25,680
Speaker 1: only time, I think, uh, even to this day, UM,

185
00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:29,359
Speaker 1: we had an authentic, uh intimate moment where I apologized

186
00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,599
Speaker 1: to her and uh you know she did too, and

187
00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,120
Speaker 1: she she apologized me back. And look, it didn't turn

188
00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:37,199
Speaker 1: into her happy divorce right after that, but all of

189
00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:39,280
Speaker 1: a sudden, there was like a weight lifted off of

190
00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,479
Speaker 1: both of her chest and there was some room, um

191
00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:46,240
Speaker 1: to move. It wasn't just this focus of you know,

192
00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,840
Speaker 1: bitterness and resentment, and and then it made the process

193
00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,800
Speaker 1: that the process wasn't easy from there, it just was

194
00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:57,280
Speaker 1: it was a lot simpler, um. And uh, you know

195
00:10:57,720 --> 00:10:59,600
Speaker 1: that that was the turning point and the next question,

196
00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:01,320
Speaker 1: I asked her what she does she have any problem

197
00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:05,880
Speaker 1: with joint custody you know, of our son everything, and

198
00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,280
Speaker 1: she said absolutely not. I said, Nikki, all the other stuff,

199
00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:10,079
Speaker 1: you know, we can work on. You know that's the

200
00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,280
Speaker 1: easy part. Um. But you know, from that moment to

201
00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:17,080
Speaker 1: where we are fourteen years later, if if you had

202
00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,880
Speaker 1: told me or her fourteen years ago that we would

203
00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,200
Speaker 1: have the life and the relationship we have today and

204
00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:27,160
Speaker 1: the co authors of a book and live and travel together,

205
00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:30,640
Speaker 1: and have we lived seven houses down from each other. Um,

206
00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,400
Speaker 1: you know she's remarried. I'm remarried. Everybody we go on

207
00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:35,800
Speaker 1: family vacations and we would have said, you're out of

208
00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:38,000
Speaker 1: your mind. You know. It just was so we just

209
00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,800
Speaker 1: wanted to be in the same room together, um, and

210
00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:43,600
Speaker 1: be able to, you know, go to Asher's sporting events

211
00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:47,880
Speaker 1: or his plays at school, and not have him have

212
00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:51,120
Speaker 1: to as he's walking over to his parents, who are

213
00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:54,600
Speaker 1: sitting apart from each other, like play in his mind,

214
00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:56,120
Speaker 1: because this is what I had to do. Okay. I

215
00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:59,360
Speaker 1: think I went over to mom last time. UM, do

216
00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:00,680
Speaker 1: you I have to go over to dad, you know,

217
00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:02,319
Speaker 1: because I don't want to make non feel bad or

218
00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:03,760
Speaker 1: I don't want to make Dad feel And that's the

219
00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:05,439
Speaker 1: kind of stuff that goes on in kid's heads when

220
00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,079
Speaker 1: their parents, you know, are in this you know, high

221
00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,000
Speaker 1: high conflict situation. So that was the goal. And then,

222
00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:13,120
Speaker 1: you know, so a lot of it was faking until

223
00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:15,959
Speaker 1: we made it. Like we would sit at Asher's events

224
00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:18,720
Speaker 1: and you know, if if she were sitting here, she'd

225
00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:20,480
Speaker 1: probably say the same thing. But she was the last

226
00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:23,319
Speaker 1: person I wanted to sit next to. She was the

227
00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,080
Speaker 1: last person that I wanted to smile, you know. And

228
00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:28,400
Speaker 1: because there was still that emotional stuff, there was that

229
00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,600
Speaker 1: still that you know, washing machine inside of me. Of

230
00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,040
Speaker 1: It's not like it all just disappeared, um, but eventually

231
00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:39,760
Speaker 1: it just became more natural. And what do you because

232
00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:41,840
Speaker 1: I feel like that's the part where I'm struggling with

233
00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:44,400
Speaker 1: the most, is like biting my my lip because there's

234
00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:46,160
Speaker 1: so many things I want to say, and I would, God,

235
00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,679
Speaker 1: I would give anything to have that lunch or whatever

236
00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:52,520
Speaker 1: that you you said you had, um to have that

237
00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,800
Speaker 1: just like an apology and the you know, and for

238
00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,320
Speaker 1: just like from a really honest and true place, like

239
00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:00,439
Speaker 1: it's just that like broke my heart you said that,

240
00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:05,880
Speaker 1: because that would just be like everything um, and it's

241
00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,480
Speaker 1: like but I just don't think I'll ever really get that,

242
00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:10,440
Speaker 1: which is just the the acceptance that I have to

243
00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:18,520
Speaker 1: now accept um. And so it's um moving like moving

244
00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,040
Speaker 1: going down the other road of Okay, that's not going

245
00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,640
Speaker 1: to actually happen. So now I have to try to

246
00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:25,960
Speaker 1: be around someone and that and it's like we're trying

247
00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:29,280
Speaker 1: and doing the very best we can, but it's there's

248
00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,079
Speaker 1: still so many times when I want to be like

249
00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,240
Speaker 1: I want to say something, and and it's you know,

250
00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:36,400
Speaker 1: holding myself back because I'm like, okay, what we have

251
00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,480
Speaker 1: right now, we're as cordial as we can be, and

252
00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:43,079
Speaker 1: and you know, we're really just communicating about the kids.

253
00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:45,160
Speaker 1: But when I hear that, you know, you guys are

254
00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,200
Speaker 1: going on family trips, it's like, yeah, that seems like

255
00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,839
Speaker 1: the farthest thing that would ever happen or even be

256
00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:51,760
Speaker 1: like a friend or I could fight in or or

257
00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:55,400
Speaker 1: trust again. You know. So it's like yeah, and that's

258
00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,199
Speaker 1: such a good point because and this is where you know,

259
00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:01,400
Speaker 1: when we tell our story, even in the book, is

260
00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,120
Speaker 1: we want to be very intentional and let people know

261
00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,959
Speaker 1: that we get it. Like again, if you told us

262
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,079
Speaker 1: fourteen years ago that we've been doing this just like you,

263
00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,760
Speaker 1: I would answer never, you know, I I would have

264
00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:19,280
Speaker 1: said never. And you know, but because of the commitment

265
00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:21,440
Speaker 1: to our son, and I think that gets lost a

266
00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,160
Speaker 1: lot of times and divorces and it's not done intentionally,

267
00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,520
Speaker 1: or they don't premeditate how they're gonna do it, or

268
00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:30,760
Speaker 1: my parents didn't. But these emotions, right, these these negative

269
00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,120
Speaker 1: hodgepodge melting pot of emotions sort of get the best

270
00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,240
Speaker 1: of people and they make decisions that aren't really in

271
00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:39,720
Speaker 1: the best interests of the kids. And you know, not

272
00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,720
Speaker 1: to be inauthentic, but there were plenty of times where

273
00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:44,840
Speaker 1: I bit my tongue. I wanted to say some there

274
00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,800
Speaker 1: are plenty of times with Nikki bit her tongue, right.

275
00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,120
Speaker 1: But but you know, now it's been a little easier

276
00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:53,320
Speaker 1: where we don't necessarily have to buy our time because

277
00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:55,280
Speaker 1: we can be honest with each other. You know, there

278
00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:57,560
Speaker 1: there are still things we still fight, you know, we

279
00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,320
Speaker 1: it's not you know, this land of like, oh that's

280
00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,800
Speaker 1: why I'm divorced you and okay, exactly, And it's a

281
00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,200
Speaker 1: lot easier. It's a lot easier to accept when she's

282
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,360
Speaker 1: my best friend than even you know, but my ex

283
00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:11,920
Speaker 1: wife in the beginning. But when people listen to this

284
00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:18,080
Speaker 1: um and you're going through it, it's really truly um

285
00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:21,520
Speaker 1: an understanding that we've been there and we could never

286
00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,200
Speaker 1: have imagined this, and it might not happen for everybody,

287
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,960
Speaker 1: but just you know, maybe hold space uh in there

288
00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:32,440
Speaker 1: for and some curiosity to the possibility for sure, and

289
00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:34,440
Speaker 1: I and I do, I do get that, and it's

290
00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:37,440
Speaker 1: just I think we're I'm kind of struggling as I'm

291
00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:42,200
Speaker 1: still in the grieving process of it. And when you know,

292
00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,640
Speaker 1: we talk, he's very much like, get over it. This

293
00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,080
Speaker 1: is our reality, and I'm like, but I'm not there yet,

294
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:49,920
Speaker 1: Like this is still I'm not that light switch that

295
00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:51,560
Speaker 1: can just be like, oh, yeah, this is our reality.

296
00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:53,760
Speaker 1: I'm over it. Nor would I ever say for someone

297
00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:55,480
Speaker 1: else to get over it like that to me is

298
00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,120
Speaker 1: just like there's no empathy in that. So that's where

299
00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:02,160
Speaker 1: I feel just like, um not understood. I feel alone.

300
00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:04,080
Speaker 1: And but again it's those are all the things that

301
00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,280
Speaker 1: now I have to process solo and with my therapist

302
00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:11,000
Speaker 1: and friends. But it's just it feels very business like

303
00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:13,920
Speaker 1: and not to me is just like that's where I'm

304
00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,320
Speaker 1: emotional about it because I never thought it would be

305
00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:20,160
Speaker 1: like a business relationship like that, you know, where it's

306
00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,280
Speaker 1: and it's like what about the there's how one person

307
00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:25,080
Speaker 1: can be so business like and the other one's like

308
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:27,760
Speaker 1: very emotional. So obviously I'm you know, on the emotional

309
00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:29,880
Speaker 1: side of it, but or I'm like, but how can

310
00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:32,840
Speaker 1: someone be so business like? Right? Right? And that's you

311
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,840
Speaker 1: know unfortunately, uh, you know, as people with a different

312
00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,400
Speaker 1: body part between our lives, is that that is sort

313
00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:42,200
Speaker 1: of you know, an m o of you know, at

314
00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:44,360
Speaker 1: least for me. I don't know, I don't want to

315
00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,040
Speaker 1: put all men, you know, sort of in this bucket

316
00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:49,360
Speaker 1: for but for me and one of my you know,

317
00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:51,960
Speaker 1: patterns in life is to just be business like right

318
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:55,760
Speaker 1: and did not feel and you know, to not um

319
00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:57,280
Speaker 1: you know. I was always told as a kid that

320
00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:02,040
Speaker 1: I was too sensitive, uh, and I took that as

321
00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,200
Speaker 1: being bad, right. I took that as a bad thing

322
00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:06,119
Speaker 1: or that I wasn't mad enough. So I think that

323
00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:08,159
Speaker 1: one of the things also is for me was to

324
00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:11,120
Speaker 1: be able to you know, accept that. And I wish

325
00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:13,000
Speaker 1: I could say that I learned that fourteen years ago,

326
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,040
Speaker 1: but I just I just have learned that recently, but

327
00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:18,080
Speaker 1: you know, you know, one of the things that that

328
00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:22,640
Speaker 1: I did is probably um just like what you're talking

329
00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:28,520
Speaker 1: about is be able to to disassociate the emotions uh

330
00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,639
Speaker 1: or not feel and just replace that with business like

331
00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:33,720
Speaker 1: And that doesn't mean that the emotions weren't there, but

332
00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:35,080
Speaker 1: it's a way. It was a way for me to

333
00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:38,720
Speaker 1: protect emotions underneath and not have to deal with it.

334
00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,960
Speaker 1: So that's like I would love to get your input,

335
00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:45,200
Speaker 1: like as you know the guy, because he was saying

336
00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,399
Speaker 1: I was being cold, and when when I when I

337
00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:52,240
Speaker 1: UM shut something off, it's very I'm like, hey, what's up?

338
00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:54,600
Speaker 1: Because I like it's either that or I'm gonna be

339
00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,960
Speaker 1: like bawling crying, being like I you know, why did

340
00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,440
Speaker 1: this happen? I didn't want this? So it's like finding

341
00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,280
Speaker 1: that in between for me has been really difficult because

342
00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:04,719
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm not meaning to be coold, but this

343
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:06,480
Speaker 1: is like what you get now. I don't like I

344
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,840
Speaker 1: I'm not there like hey how are you? You know?

345
00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:12,440
Speaker 1: Like I am around the kids, but when it's just us,

346
00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,280
Speaker 1: I'm like, hey, what's up? Why are you cold? I

347
00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:17,760
Speaker 1: don't I don't you don't want to know what I

348
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:20,600
Speaker 1: want to say exactly and that you know, that's about

349
00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:25,080
Speaker 1: owning you know, the anger, you know, is emotion for me,

350
00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,840
Speaker 1: though anger is also a secondary emotion right of you know,

351
00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,160
Speaker 1: protecting something underneath it. But one thing that I had

352
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,600
Speaker 1: to do was and still have to do today, is

353
00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:38,080
Speaker 1: own my anger. And it is an emotion and it

354
00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:40,800
Speaker 1: is something that needs to be processed, especially for me.

355
00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,840
Speaker 1: I mean, if not, it comes out in the wrong way,

356
00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,359
Speaker 1: and you know, it comes out as saying things I

357
00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:49,680
Speaker 1: don't want to say and doing all that. But um,

358
00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:54,040
Speaker 1: when you look at, um, the relationship with Nick and

359
00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,919
Speaker 1: I in the beginning, um, it almost had to be

360
00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,480
Speaker 1: uh a dynamic of or it would have been a

361
00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:05,719
Speaker 1: dynamic of our old patterns and our old dynamic of

362
00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:09,679
Speaker 1: throwing the emotional boomerang back and forth, right throwing the

363
00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:15,879
Speaker 1: uh you know mean spirited or cold or whatever the

364
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,320
Speaker 1: dynamic was, and and just throwing that ball back and

365
00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:20,679
Speaker 1: forth and black forth. Now what we learned to do,

366
00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:23,719
Speaker 1: and sometimes I did it, I think most of the

367
00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,840
Speaker 1: time she did it, but was just dropped the baseball

368
00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,679
Speaker 1: and not throw it back, you know, and learn how to.

369
00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:32,040
Speaker 1: This isn't gonna go anywhere. This is we we've learned.

370
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,360
Speaker 1: We played this movie. This is why, you know. Yeah,

371
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:37,480
Speaker 1: I had to apologize the other day to them because

372
00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,159
Speaker 1: I was, you know, just let my emotions get in

373
00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:42,119
Speaker 1: the middle of what I thought should be happening. And

374
00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:45,000
Speaker 1: then I was like, I'm sorry for letting what I

375
00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,679
Speaker 1: think should be going on or happening. It was regarding

376
00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:50,960
Speaker 1: the kids. I was like, I projected how I'm feeling

377
00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:54,040
Speaker 1: right now onto the situation, and I'm sorry. So I

378
00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,480
Speaker 1: was proud of myself for owning it. But at the

379
00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:58,320
Speaker 1: same time, it's just like, but I didn't want to

380
00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:01,480
Speaker 1: be in this situation, but I left part of right. Well,

381
00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,920
Speaker 1: I mean that, yeah, and that's what. And I also

382
00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:06,840
Speaker 1: wanted to say when when that I forgot to say

383
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,240
Speaker 1: at the beginning is that I am not a lawyer,

384
00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:12,760
Speaker 1: I am not a doctor, I'm not a therapist. I

385
00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,000
Speaker 1: didn't stay at a holiday in express last night. So

386
00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:18,880
Speaker 1: you know, this is just you know, my human experience. Uh.

387
00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,400
Speaker 1: And it seemed to work, you know with Nick and I. So,

388
00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:24,920
Speaker 1: so this stuff I'm saying doesn't have any sort of

389
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,000
Speaker 1: basis in uh, you know, any sort of studies or anything.

390
00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:31,040
Speaker 1: But what makes it? You're like, in the book like,

391
00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:33,600
Speaker 1: what are some things that will be really helpful for people,

392
00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:38,560
Speaker 1: um to have that happy divorce. Yeah. I think the

393
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:44,119
Speaker 1: main thing, um is um putting our son first. And

394
00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:47,159
Speaker 1: I think that that you know, gets thrown around a

395
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:50,920
Speaker 1: lot um. And and for Nicky and I looking back

396
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,600
Speaker 1: on it, we didn't have this brilliant uh strategy at

397
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:58,040
Speaker 1: the beginning. But as you probably can relate, when you

398
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,640
Speaker 1: have a decision to make when you're in that divorce

399
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:06,879
Speaker 1: or divorced or early divorced uh phase. Uh, you know,

400
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:10,160
Speaker 1: and you have the simple math equation of two plus two, right, Uh,

401
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,320
Speaker 1: you could have three different answers, right, one for me,

402
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,640
Speaker 1: one for Nikki, and then one for our son. And

403
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,280
Speaker 1: what we've tried to do was always go with the

404
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,160
Speaker 1: one that was best for Asher, that equalled for UM,

405
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:27,359
Speaker 1: and that included who we dated, who we brought around him, everything.

406
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:31,600
Speaker 1: And there was you know, one story uh that we

407
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,920
Speaker 1: got divorced. Um. Nikki you know, sort of knew what

408
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,000
Speaker 1: I was gonna do, you know, sort of, so my

409
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,520
Speaker 1: wild oads if you will be the you know, uh

410
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,639
Speaker 1: sort of d bag and and date around and uh,

411
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:45,400
Speaker 1: you know, she asked me. She called me one day

412
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,480
Speaker 1: and she said UM, can you do me a favor

413
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:56,560
Speaker 1: and not bring um, Mercedes diamond whatever, crystal crystal, Gucci

414
00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:03,080
Speaker 1: you know around ash and so crystals, Gucci diamonds out there.

415
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,760
Speaker 1: We're not trying to type. Yeah, yeah, no offense. Um.

416
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,399
Speaker 1: And so she asked me that, and and the ego.

417
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,879
Speaker 1: The first response was, who the hell are you to

418
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,679
Speaker 1: tell me who I can and cannot bring around my son. Uh.

419
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,040
Speaker 1: And there was a lot of those sort of first reactions.

420
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,720
Speaker 1: Now I didn't say it because you know, what I've

421
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,000
Speaker 1: what I learned to do and I still practice and

422
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,080
Speaker 1: I try to do, is just to pause right before

423
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,679
Speaker 1: and not go off of that first uh you know,

424
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,840
Speaker 1: uh gut checker or that first reaction. And then I

425
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 1: thought about it. Uh. And she was right. I mean,

426
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,280
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, that was what equals

427
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 1: for Frasher. For for to have him a revolving door

428
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:48,920
Speaker 1: of women in and out of his life with his dad, Um,

429
00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,000
Speaker 1: what would not be good for him because he's already

430
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,639
Speaker 1: got this trauma of his parents getting divorced. Now he

431
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 1: sees this other side. UM. And so I said, you're right,

432
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,240
Speaker 1: and I won't do it. And so you know, there

433
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 1: it was a year before I brought a woman around

434
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,840
Speaker 1: and introduced him, and I you know, gave Nikki UM,

435
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 1: talked to her and explained to her how was gonna

436
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,400
Speaker 1: happen and when it was gonna happen. And so that's

437
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,320
Speaker 1: that That's just one example of many, but that's I

438
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 1: think the uh you know, when you have that all

439
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,919
Speaker 1: those decisions to make. Is what we did is we

440
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,159
Speaker 1: really put as her first, and we continue to do

441
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,840
Speaker 1: and we also, you know, part of a happy divorce,

442
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:31,400
Speaker 1: uh is a happy child, right, and his happiness and

443
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 1: we gave him space, um, you know, to to express himself.

444
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:39,439
Speaker 1: And that's one thing that didn't happen uh in in

445
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 1: my life and with my parents is it was sort

446
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 1: of the event, right. It was this event mom and

447
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 1: dad are getting divorced. You know. They set us all

448
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,480
Speaker 1: down in the living room, um, and that was it,

449
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,119
Speaker 1: and there was no space or opportunity for us to

450
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 1: express ourselves or to ask questions or to you know,

451
00:23:55,600 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 1: talk about how we're feeling. Um. And so as for me, uh,

452
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 1: I was like this is bad. I then internalized that

453
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 1: and I thought to myself, well you must be bad.

454
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 1: And so one thing that we've done with Asher is

455
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,359
Speaker 1: to give him that space and that opportunity to express

456
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,880
Speaker 1: himself if he wants to stay another night at mom's house,

457
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:22,879
Speaker 1: even fourteen years later. I mean the beginning was a

458
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 1: little harder. But for you know, yeah, fine, spent another

459
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 1: night at your mom's house. Right, It's not about us, um.

460
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 1: And if something's bothering, you talk about it. Um. And

461
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 1: and so that's that that that's a component of it.

462
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 1: But the other thing is people also, the main thing

463
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,639
Speaker 1: is not the main thing. I talked about other people

464
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:45,679
Speaker 1: in our lives, uh and and and what's best for

465
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 1: our son is to bring people into his life who

466
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 1: understand our relationship, what we're trying to accomplish, and not

467
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 1: become sort of a wedge that sometimes happens. Um. You know,

468
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 1: it's easy. It's easier when it's just Nick and I

469
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 1: in a bicycle. You had two more wheels to it,

470
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:05,160
Speaker 1: you know, and it becomes a car and they all

471
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 1: have to work together. Do you find that you guys

472
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 1: have more respect for each other now than when you

473
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:26,159
Speaker 1: were married? No question? Yeah, because it sounds like it

474
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,119
Speaker 1: sounds like it, you know, and I'm like, wow, that

475
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: would be really cool, because I think there was so

476
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 1: much resentment for me and my ex with each other,

477
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: that it would be nice to want to get to

478
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 1: that place where he actually looks at me and doesn't

479
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 1: resent me or hate me and vice versa, you know,

480
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 1: and we can just have just respect because we're putting

481
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 1: the kids first, but also because we are respecting each other,

482
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 1: you know, better than we did when we were married. Yeah,

483
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,120
Speaker 1: and that's the turning point. I mean, at some point

484
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 1: I can't even pinpoint when that happened, but that was

485
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 1: when the faking it turned into making it right and

486
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 1: it became this authentic, real relationship where it wasn't forced.

487
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 1: Uh you know today, Um, Nikki, you know is has

488
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 1: always been except for you know, a little time out there,

489
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 1: but you know she's always had my back. She's always

490
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: seen me for who I am and love me for

491
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 1: who I am. Um, I never you know, there's a

492
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 1: peer there. I didn't see it, but it can't. It's

493
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 1: sort of had come full circle and now you know

494
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,400
Speaker 1: she is when she tells me things and and gives

495
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,880
Speaker 1: me advice or calls me out on my nonsense, which

496
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 1: she will do uh freely and oftenly. Um, there's not

497
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,439
Speaker 1: that who you know, there's not that stuff that I

498
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,479
Speaker 1: would get when she would tell me that before, like

499
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: the you know, uh intellect trying to not take it

500
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: in and to not listen to her. And it's just

501
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 1: a different reaction. So for the newly divorced couples, I mean,

502
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,159
Speaker 1: I kind of like what you said, just take it

503
00:26:58,200 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 1: till you make it in a way where it's like

504
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 1: we just because there's nothing has come good out, nothing

505
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: has come out well with you know, him being mean

506
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 1: or me saying something snarky. So it's like it's just

507
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 1: being nice, accepting this what it is, what it is,

508
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 1: and hopefully by time then your emotions just start to

509
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,160
Speaker 1: catch up to that, right, and then your life happens.

510
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 1: I mean that's the other thing, right is, as the

511
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,360
Speaker 1: time went on, it became clearer and clearer to both

512
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,400
Speaker 1: of us that this was the right decision. But it's

513
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,439
Speaker 1: also she got remarried, uh, and she started seeing that, Okay,

514
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 1: this is what it looks like. And then I would see, uh,

515
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,199
Speaker 1: how she looked at her husband now, and it was

516
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 1: clear she never looked at me like that, you know.

517
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: I mean, so she's so time and space, you know,

518
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 1: creates I think a little clarity at least it did

519
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 1: for us to be able to see why it happened

520
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 1: and why you know, why it happened When you're when

521
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:58,920
Speaker 1: you're in it and you got all those emotions, it's

522
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 1: it's hard to take it a look outside and to

523
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 1: see what things really are. Um. And so the you know,

524
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:11,119
Speaker 1: thinking if you make it uh is also Uh it

525
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 1: sounds a little flippant like saying it like that, but

526
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 1: I get it. Yeah, at the same time, you have

527
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 1: to deal with the emotional stuff. You have to deal

528
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 1: with that, and and the other thing we did, which

529
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,879
Speaker 1: I think is important. I don't know if they give

530
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 1: rewards for people who get divorced quick like there's no

531
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 1: it's not a race, Like, there's no award for getting

532
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 1: it over quickly and getting this man with this woman

533
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: out of your life quickly. But an expensive lawyer bill

534
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: a dark cloud that's gonna follow you around the rest

535
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: of your life, and most importantly, a dark cloud that's

536
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: gonna follow your kids around, um, you know, for the

537
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: rest of their lives. So we took our time, you know,

538
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 1: and like I said, Nikki was very grace graceful with

539
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: her with allowing me that and and uh, it took

540
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 1: us which we figured out the whole sort of business

541
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,239
Speaker 1: side of it. After that coffee shop. We've out at

542
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 1: that coffee shop I don't know five, six, seven more

543
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 1: times and actually just said okay, where can we where

544
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: what can we agree upon? And we ended up doing

545
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 1: the whole a divorce, uh settlement or whatever you wanna

546
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 1: call it. Uh, they're at a coffee shop. And then

547
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 1: we handed it to the lawyers and said, draw it up.

548
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: This is you know, that's where the business side of

549
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: it does. And you know the business. You know, lawyers

550
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 1: aren't mental health providers. They aren't therapists. Uh. They get

551
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 1: paid more uh than therapists. I remember my lawyer that

552
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 1: they do. I love my therapist. Jason shot out, yeah, exactly,

553
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: and probably my lawyer. I called her one day and

554
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 1: she said, how are you feeling? And I said, Nancy,

555
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: with all due respect, and I don't mean this to

556
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 1: be you know, you know what, uh, but you're you're

557
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 1: six hundred dollars an hour my lawyers. If I want

558
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 1: to talk about my feelings, right, I can go to

559
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 1: my therapists and get five sessions, yes and present. And

560
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 1: so you know, the the time that we took um

561
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 1: was was a big uh foundation. I think of why

562
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 1: we are able to sit here on your show and

563
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: talk about our happy divorce. Well, I love that. And

564
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 1: do what about the women, because I know there's a

565
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 1: lot out there that still don't have that closure or

566
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: that apology. What would you say to them to to

567
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 1: move forward and not stay stuck in that wanting it

568
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:30,719
Speaker 1: and holding out for it? And do you think they

569
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: will come around? I hope that people. And again, this

570
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 1: isn't something you know. I wish I could say I

571
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 1: learned this a long time ago, but this is just

572
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 1: a recent thing. Is expectations of somebody else um, and

573
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 1: expecting something um is just as it's just a premeditated

574
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: setup for a resentment. Right, it's just um because it

575
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,479
Speaker 1: might come, it might ever come. But being able to

576
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: take responsibility, uh, for your happiness, for your change, for

577
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 1: your life, I think we'll go a long way because

578
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 1: for me, and I'm sure Nikki would say the same

579
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: thing is sitting around waiting if she had waited for

580
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:13,959
Speaker 1: me to do X and do that, That's why we

581
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: know we got divorced, right, because it was always if

582
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 1: only if only Ben would do this, if only Nikki

583
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 1: would do this? Uh? You know and so yes, you know,

584
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: to to the women listening, it would be great. Uh

585
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 1: if everybody could apologize and do what Nicki and I

586
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 1: did and it which it wasn't just me apologizing, you know,

587
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: I wasn't the spirit the spiritual giant in this uh.

588
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: You know, in this equation. Nikki did the same thing

589
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: for me. But it wasn't an expectation. You know, I

590
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 1: didn't go into that coffee shop with an expectation of

591
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 1: her doing anything back to me or you know, giving

592
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 1: me anything back except for just to get this off

593
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 1: my chest. You know this was for me. Um. So.

594
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: But but I think the expectations, um, or the wanting

595
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 1: something or needing something, um, yes, I understand that people

596
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 1: want that and need that, but there's no way that

597
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 1: anybody can ever control that. But you can't. We're also

598
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: determined or convinced are happy. Divorce doesn't have to be

599
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: the you know land of rainbow waterfalls and unicorns that

600
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 1: we live in. But if you're able to not hand

601
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 1: the kids the emotional divorce or bill for the divorce,

602
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 1: and you know, find some sort of happiness and peacefulness

603
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 1: and fulfillment in your life, um, regardless of the other person. Right, Uh,

604
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 1: it still can be a happy divorce. You know. My

605
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 1: therapist said the funniest thing to me, well, not the

606
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 1: funniest thing, but it clicked. It was I was trying

607
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 1: to explain to her, you know what I was wanting,

608
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: and and she goes, Janna, you're walking into home depot

609
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 1: and asking for bread. You're not going to get bed

610
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: at home depot. And I was just like, Amy, holy crap,

611
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 1: that is like, that makes so much sense to me

612
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 1: out of any everything that you just said to me.

613
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm literally walking into home depot asking

614
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 1: for bread and milk and I'm not gonna get it.

615
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 1: But it maybe you'll go to the next home deep

616
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 1: boil thinking that they'll have it, or maybe you go

617
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 1: to Lows because maybe the you know, they sell something

618
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 1: at home being right. And that's the other thing about

619
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 1: focusing on on somebody else that was so important that

620
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 1: Nikki and I did is we focused on our side

621
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 1: of the street. And and that process was hard because

622
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: it doesn't it wasn't natural for me or Nikki. But

623
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,479
Speaker 1: you know, even looking over there and going look at

624
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 1: look at her. That's a little dirty over there. But

625
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: you know, focusing on on what I can do and

626
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 1: what I can change and take responsibility for it. Um.

627
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 1: And the other thing is the poison I realized that

628
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 1: I was taking and Nicky was, you know, probably doing

629
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 1: the same thing. The poison uh of this resentment is

630
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: anger and all this other stuff and hoping that Nikki died,

631
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 1: Like what kind of life really is that where you're

632
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 1: you're sitting there, you know, taking poison and you know,

633
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:09,760
Speaker 1: not being fulfilled in life, hoping the other person suffers

634
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 1: and so that you know, that's that that that was

635
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 1: at the end of our marriage and up until uh,

636
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:19,760
Speaker 1: you know that that moment you know, in the coffee

637
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 1: shop and I want to you know, be you know, authentic.

638
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 1: It just didn't you know, snap our fingers after that

639
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 1: coffee shop meeting and everything was great. No, for sure,

640
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 1: I get that. But seriously, then, thank you so much

641
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: for coming on, um, everyone that's listening, Get Our Happy Divorce.

642
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 1: That's going to be UM my next book that I read.

643
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 1: And UM, just thank you for coming on bringing your

644
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 1: perspective and UM, yeah, I really really really appreciate it.

645
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: I appreciate you sharing your platform with us and I

646
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 1: and I you know, I know where you are and

647
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: I know where people who are going through it are

648
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 1: and and it's a terrible traumatic experience, but it's not

649
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 1: one that has to haunt or you know, suffer. Uh,

650
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's one of my favorite expressions

651
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 1: of life. And is it. Pain is mandatory, but suffering

652
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:11,839
Speaker 1: is optional, you know. And I think with divorce, that

653
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: is no truer statement. Uh is Uh, there's no truer

654
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 1: statement because it's painful. It is a terrible, hopeless feeling

655
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,320
Speaker 1: and guilt ridden and all the other stuff with the

656
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,399
Speaker 1: kids and and but the suffering part of it can

657
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: be mitigated and uh, you know, and you can have

658
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 1: a happy divorce, and you can have a happy divorce.

659
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,360
Speaker 1: There you go. Thanks then, appreciate you, Thank you, I

660
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 1: appreciate you. Um. Well, I'm optimistic now with uh, with

661
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 1: talking with him, and yeah, I think time kind of

662
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 1: helps everything. I mean, let's be honest, a few months ago,

663
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 1: I couldn't feel myself off before and get out of that,

664
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 1: so I think, um, we're all moving in the right direction.

665
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 1: And I got to keep a positive outlook, especially for

666
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 1: those babies. And I'm going to go now sit outside

667
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: because in three hours Jolie is going to come home

668
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 1: on the bus and I want to make sure I'm

669
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,319
Speaker 1: not late, and the bus stop is right in front

670
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: of my house, so I'm a psycho mom Um. I'll

671
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: see you guys next week