1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Little did we know the 2 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: investigation into a missing teen would uncover literally a graveyard, 3 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: a burial ground. I mean, Nancy Grace, this is crime Stories. 4 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation 5 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: and Serious X one eleven. First of all, take a 6 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 1: listen to our friends at wi Ink. Margaret John's describes 7 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: her younger sister, Teresa as your typical teenager. I said, well, 8 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: you're going to get a job, You're going to tell 9 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:47,239 Speaker 1: the line, and she promised that she was because she 10 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 1: wanted to be with her sister. And after a couple 11 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: of job interviews, Teresa never came home. That was it. 12 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: I never heard from her again. Wow. Okay, maybe that 13 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: was a different time in a different place. But to 14 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: send a teen girl out on her own for an interview, 15 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm afraid to let Lucy even walk around 16 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: the blot by herself, for Pete's sake. Much let's go 17 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:17,320 Speaker 1: on interviews alone. I mean maybe if you drove her there, 18 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: so let's just pretend Chick Filo or Burger King and 19 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:23,039 Speaker 1: watched her walk in and then waited for her to 20 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: come out. Yes, I could see that, but to just 21 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 1: send her out the door for a job interview, for 22 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: a series of job interviews. I'm stunned about that. I'm 23 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: not stunned that this teen girl, Teresa filling Jim never 24 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: came home. What happened to Teresa? Just a full of life, 25 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: a lovely young girl. When you look at her pictures 26 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: of her smile, it looks like she's just about to 27 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: break into laughter. You see it coming out of her eyes. 28 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: How does a teen girl just disappear and you never 29 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: hear from them again again? I may see grace. This 30 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: is crime story. Thank you for being with us, joining 31 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: me an all star panel. But first I want to 32 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: go to special guests joining us from Oxygen dot Com. 33 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 1: It's Jack Miller and she's a truth prime author of 34 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: Hell and the Heartland, Murder Meth and the Case of 35 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: Two Missing Girls. That doesn't sound good, of course, I'll 36 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 1: have to read it from front to back. Hell and 37 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 1: the Heartland, Murder, Meth and the Case of Two Missing Girls. Okay, 38 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 1: you got me at Murder Meth and Two Missing Girls. 39 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:42,119 Speaker 1: Jacks Miller, thank you for being with us. I want 40 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: to talk about the disappearance of this girl, Teresa Fillingen, 41 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: teen girl just seven to barely seventeen years old when 42 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: she walks out the door of her sister's home to 43 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: go on a job interview. What do we know about 44 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 1: her disappearance? You know, that's the thing they're really he 45 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 1: wasn't too many details out there, you know, I know 46 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 1: her her parents had looked for her. Her father was 47 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: an Alaskan States trooper. I read and spent many years 48 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: looking for her. But she just suddenly vanished. You know, nobody, 49 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: nobody knew what happened. Where she a runaway? Did someone 50 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,399 Speaker 1: take her? You know, no one had these answers back then. 51 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,679 Speaker 1: You know, I'm just thinking this through. Knowing that her 52 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 1: father was in law enforcement. I bet he did a 53 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: thorough search. But the reality to Paul Zike joining me 54 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: foreign police commander in Albuquerque and author stop him from 55 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: killing them on Amazon Kendall Paul, the search methods that 56 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: were in place at the time Teresa Fillingsen went missing 57 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: or a far cry from what is in place now. Explain, Well, 58 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: you know, back then, it just involved getting as many 59 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: people as you could get together and combing, you know, woods, 60 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: walking together, you know, making sure you mark places that 61 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: you're sing, you know, maybe a helicopter flying over, but 62 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: certainly not the technology that can be employed today utilizing 63 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: cell phone data and GPS coordinates and all these other things. 64 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: So they were definitely hindered forty years ago as well 65 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:21,720 Speaker 1: as Stacey was going to this job interview. Let's just pretend. 66 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: Let's just pretend it's McDonald's. Did they have video surveillance? 67 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: They do now. I mean every square inches at the 68 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 1: bathroom and McDonald's is covered in video surveillance. Thank Heaven, 69 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:37,479 Speaker 1: is there that is their surveillance video at red lights, 70 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: red light cams in Florida, there are tons of tolls. 71 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: You can't go anywhere without paying a toll. Now, when 72 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:51,720 Speaker 1: you think that through, it would be fairly easy to 73 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 1: get video from those toll bridges, right or tolls stops 74 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: not then what about it, Paul, Yeah, Well you're absolutely right, Nancy. 75 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: The technology that we employ today, I mean, we even 76 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,359 Speaker 1: have real time prime centers or hubs for this type 77 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: of information. It allows them to piece together the movement, 78 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:15,600 Speaker 1: where somebody went next, and who they were with. That's 79 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,239 Speaker 1: the big thing. I mean, in all the homicide cases 80 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: I've worked, if you find if there's a dead female 81 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: or missing female, you need to find who she was 82 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: with last and it's specifically what male and some of 83 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:31,280 Speaker 1: that technology could have provided that back then. I mean, 84 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: and now you immediately have an Amber alert go out 85 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 1: if there is a car involved. It goes on too. 86 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 1: I mean at crime Online, we send out immediately when 87 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: we hear about a missing person or a missing child. 88 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 1: I mean within minutes of the Amber alert going out. 89 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: It's out there on the media. Let's talk about the 90 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: area to Jackson Miller joining us from Oxygen dot com. 91 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:55,839 Speaker 1: What can you tell me about spring Hill, Florida. So 92 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 1: it's in central Florida, more to the west. It's not 93 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: far from her now newbie to Hernando County. And you 94 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:04,720 Speaker 1: know it's known for its natural springs. It's a nice 95 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 1: area by all accounts. It's it's a nice sunny area 96 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: in Florida. You know, It's what I'm really interested in. 97 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 1: Right there, Del Carson joining me not only high profile 98 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: lawyer joining us out off Florida near where this incident occurred, 99 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: but also former fed with the FBI as an Asian 100 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,840 Speaker 1: author of arrest Proof Yourself and you can find him 101 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: at del Carson Law dot com. Another thing about spring Hills, Florida, 102 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: very low population in comparison, a little over one hundred 103 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: thousand people living there. Now, that's bigger than where I 104 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 1: grew up in rural bib County. It's not even part 105 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:50,600 Speaker 1: of a city. That greatly changes the search for this 106 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,920 Speaker 1: missing team girl, del Carson Agree or disagree? No, No, 107 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: I absolutely agree, Nancy. When you have a low population density, 108 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: there are a couple of reasons for that. One of 109 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: them is, obviously people don't want to be on top 110 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 1: of one another in subdivisions. So the result is that 111 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: things are spread out and you can have compounds and 112 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: areas where you put up no tresspassing signs and you 113 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: don't allow other people to come. With that low of 114 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: a population, you would think it would reduce the suspect pool. 115 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: What about it? Paul's like, absolutely agree with you. You 116 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: know you're going to have The more you can spread 117 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: things out, the more search area that you have to cover, 118 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: the less likely it is that you're going to find 119 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: the individual, especially close to when the event occurred. Okay, 120 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: another thing about spring Hill, Florida is it's got a 121 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: very low crime rate and it's interesting. Scott Johnson joining 122 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: me forensic psychologist joinings out of Minnesota thirty two years 123 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: in Connecting Crime with Psychology. He's the author of Physical 124 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: Abusers and Sex Offenders. You can find him at Forensic 125 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: Consultation dot org. Scott people move to places like spring Hill, 126 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: Florida to get away from crime, and then Teresa goes missing. 127 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 1: There's really no place safe from crime. Well no, and 128 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: especially with the psychopath who's smart enough to stay under 129 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: the radar. People just don't see the evil. They're you know, 130 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 1: so glib and superficial, charming and all of that that 131 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 1: when they move around, people just would never suspect them, 132 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: nor w they likely have identified that person asted you know, 133 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: being in the area. Now, I've actually been to this 134 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: area before, because who hasn't been to weeki Wachi. That's 135 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: where you see real mermaids. And when my daughter was 136 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: completely into Throes of Aeriel. In case you don't know 137 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 1: she's a mermaid, I'm not going to be a total spoiler, 138 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 1: but let's just say it has a happy ending. A 139 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 1: mermaid that always wanted to be able to walk and run. 140 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: She was all about mermaids. And there's a week you 141 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: Watchee where you go in and you see a live 142 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 1: mermaid show. Can I tell you how many times we 143 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,959 Speaker 1: saw that show. That is how I know about this 144 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: area because of the close proximity, and it's that the 145 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 1: area is stunning, but it is very I don't want 146 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: to say rural, because rural conjures up farms and cows. 147 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: This is more like a wild jungle, very dense, densely 148 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 1: wooded palmetto trees and live oaks as you drive along 149 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: the road. I mean, if somebody we're out and those 150 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: live oaks and those trees, it would be very difficult 151 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 1: to find them, and to you, doctor Michelle dupre joining 152 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 1: US former forensic pathologists, medical examiner and detective, also the 153 00:09:55,920 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: author of homicide Investigation Field Guy, Doctor Dupree, if she 154 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: were out in that dense forestation, there may very well 155 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: be nothing left of her to identify and a matter 156 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 1: of months. Nancy, that very well maybe true. As you know, 157 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: body decomposition is going to depend on the environment, and 158 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: the longer the person is out there, the harder it's 159 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: going to be. The heat, the climate. As you just 160 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: heard Jack S. Miller state, people go there for the 161 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: sunny weather. When I hear sunny weather, I think of 162 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: rapid decomposition. Okay, that's just me crime stories with Nancy Grace. 163 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 1: But right now, we've got a missing girl, Teresa Fillingen. 164 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 1: She goes on an interview. She moves in with her 165 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: sister in Florida. The sister says, hey, you got to 166 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: get a job. She's fine with that. She heads out 167 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: on a job interview, and she's never seen again. Now 168 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: take a list to our friends at WTSPA ten Tampa. 169 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: Her sister reported her missing to Tampa. Please back on 170 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 1: May sixteenth. It was right before her seventeenth birthday. Well, 171 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: I'm confident that on that day she was already abducted 172 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,479 Speaker 1: and then murdered. This is a photo of Teresa Caroline Fillingham, 173 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 1: taken one year before she disappeared from Tampa. But the 174 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: only reason I'm doing this is because I don't want 175 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:34,479 Speaker 1: people to lose hope. You know. I find that really interesting. 176 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:38,439 Speaker 1: Everybody on the panel, jump in when you're ready. Because 177 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: statistics show that when someone is kidnapped, especially a child, 178 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,319 Speaker 1: which is anybody under eighteen. In this case, she was 179 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 1: actually still sixteen. I just realized this because this was 180 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 1: right before her seventeenth birthday. Statistics show when someone is 181 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: abducted and they are ultimately killed. They are killed within 182 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: the first seventy two hours after the abduction, So although 183 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:07,959 Speaker 1: the family didn't want to hear it at the time, 184 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: by the time the search got underway, there was a 185 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:17,559 Speaker 1: strong likelihood that this sixteen year old girl was already dead. 186 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: What about it, Paul'syke. That's absolutely true, and it's a 187 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: sad just horrific facts. And in all the responses through 188 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: the last thirty years to child abduction that I've been 189 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: involved in, I'll tell you you'd never see a law 190 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 1: enforcement response like you do during those types of calls. 191 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: And that's because they know, you know, up in the 192 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 1: high nineties, if we don't find this kid within the 193 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: first hour or seventy two, you know hours, that you're 194 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: not going to find them again, and they're probably not 195 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 1: going to be alive. And it's horrendous. There's another problem, Mancy. 196 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: Down in that area, you've got tourists in and out, 197 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 1: so it's a transit area and this child could have 198 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: been picked up by someone thinking out of state. Jill Carson, 199 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: That's exactly the point I was trying to make, but 200 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,079 Speaker 1: you made it much better. When I was talking about 201 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 1: taking the twins, John David Lucy to see the mermaids 202 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 1: at Wikiwatchee. We were also there to swim with the 203 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: manatee at Crystal River, and there was a huge tourist attraction. 204 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 1: It was cold, who was in the early spring, which 205 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 1: is the time to see manatee, And I remember we 206 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: saw Wikiwatchee and swam with the manatee for several days 207 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 1: straight right in that area. Wikiwatchee is only ten minutes 208 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: away from where this occurred in spring Hill, Florida, and 209 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: then the manatee are about thirty forty minutes from there. 210 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: So the people come from all over the country to 211 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,199 Speaker 1: go to those two locations and they have our fees 212 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 1: and grounds, and those RVs can transit all the way 213 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: across the country. You know, it's very interesting and coincidental 214 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,719 Speaker 1: that you just said that, Dell Carson, because as we 215 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: were talking about the first three hours, the first seventy 216 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: seventy two hours after a child is missing, it really 217 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: hit home with me. In two cases that I investigated 218 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: and covered in the past. One was the case of 219 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: Samantha Runnion. As I recalled, Samantha was about three is 220 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: years old. She was playing in the front yard of 221 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: her grandma's house. She was a guy came up, grabbed 222 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: her out of the front yard and took off in 223 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: a car. By the time the grandma could get out there, 224 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: she went straight out. She was standing at the kitchen window. 225 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: She was out there in thirty seconds. The guy was gone, 226 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: and as it turned out, he murdered Samantha within three 227 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: or four hours after he had raped in sodomized the 228 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: little girl. Then what comes to mind is the case 229 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: of Danielle van Dam. She was abducted in California. There 230 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 1: was just a wild, frantic search and they finally found 231 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: remains identified by her Mickey Mouse airing that she loved 232 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: so much. But he took her and it was a neighbor, 233 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: David Westerfield, that had been watching the house. It actually 234 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: went in the house while they went in there asleep 235 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: and got the girl. But he kept her hostage in 236 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: an RV for days before he murdered her. My point 237 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 1: is that if the child is not rescued and the 238 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: first seventy ish hours, the child, if they're going to 239 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 1: be killed, has been killed. So the fact that people 240 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: are traveling to these areas in RVs, it's a tourist 241 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: area that greatly changes it the whole search another case, 242 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: it's right on point. Let me go now to Scott 243 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 1: Johnson for psychologist, professor of Laurda, Gulf Coast University, an 244 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: author of physical abusers and sex offenders. Scott, the case 245 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 1: of Shastic Grownee also sticks in my mind on this point. 246 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: The person that murdered her little brother and her whole 247 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: family was not from that area, believe it or not. 248 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: It was Cordelaine, Idaho. And when you fly over Cordelaine, 249 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: you look down you see nothing but beautiful emerald green, 250 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: completely rural. But they were near an interstate and this 251 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: freak apparently drove by, spotted at a distance, somehow her 252 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 1: at an above ground pool and lay in wait and 253 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: then massacred her family. Took herring a little brother, ultimately 254 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: killed him too, And she lived my point. Even when 255 00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: you are in a rural area with low crime, you're 256 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,360 Speaker 1: not necessarily safe, okay, because the sexual predator, the sexual 257 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: cycle path is always on the prow. So wherever they are, 258 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: they're always thinking, you know, where's the next game, because 259 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 1: for them it's a game. And so wherever they are, 260 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 1: they're always at risk or perpetrating another crime. You know what, 261 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: the way you just said that put a chill down 262 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: my spine, and you are absolutely correct. This sends shockwaves 263 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:30,160 Speaker 1: through not only the community they are in Florida, but 264 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: the family of Teresa as well. Take listen to our 265 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,920 Speaker 1: friends at WFTS. Shouldn't have a chance to start her 266 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 1: life at all, or do anything or accomplish anything. Teresa 267 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: Fillingham was seventeen and living in Tampa in nineteen eighty 268 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: when she disappeared. Her disappearance and my son's birth four 269 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,400 Speaker 1: years later, and the subsequent disappearance of a kid two 270 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: blocks from my house that stepped off their bus and 271 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:58,959 Speaker 1: was never heard from again, prompted me to leave the 272 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: state and not raise son in Florida. Okay, I've got 273 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 1: to say to you, Scott Johnson, psychologist joining us, that 274 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 1: sounds a bit like an overreaction. But I completely understand 275 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:17,640 Speaker 1: why the family of missing Teresa would just pick up 276 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: and leave. It's just what is that Some people that 277 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: aren't familiar with it would call it an overreaction, but 278 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 1: I disagree, right because they're reacting to a tremendous obviously 279 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 1: try and they picked up and moved on, And sometimes 280 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: that's the bestly got for their SAMI team. You know, 281 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 1: I spoke to in depth to the mother a little 282 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 1: boy who was shot dead as case still hasn't insults 283 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 1: Chucky Mack out of one of Roma's Georgia and for 284 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: years and years she stayed in the family home thinking 285 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,879 Speaker 1: that somehow she might get a tip, and that if 286 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:57,679 Speaker 1: she moved then that tip would no longer be possible. 287 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:01,400 Speaker 1: The other day, we covered a case where the family 288 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:04,120 Speaker 1: didn't want to leave because they thought the missing child 289 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 1: would come home one day. And when they finally did leave, 290 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:12,479 Speaker 1: they moved their landline to a neighbor's home just in 291 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: case the missing child, now grown up, would call home. 292 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:21,719 Speaker 1: And that just broke my heart, Paul, right, And you know, 293 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: there's always that hope that somewhere you are loved one 294 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: will will show up, And certainly there are those cases, 295 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 1: but you kind of stay stuck in time waiting, and 296 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: that's the downside. It's another victimization for the family who 297 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 1: put their life on hold with hopes that one day 298 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 1: they're missing loved them will show up, and we know 299 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,879 Speaker 1: that ninety nine percent of the time that's just not 300 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: the outcome. Scott Johnson, you wanted in go ahead. Yes, 301 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 1: you know. At times the sexual psychopath wants to find 302 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,959 Speaker 1: that isolated victims to buy themselves time, ie that they 303 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: won't be detected. On the other hand, for so many 304 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:01,880 Speaker 1: that's part of the game where they may actually abduct 305 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: someone in broad daylight or knowing that people will be looking, 306 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: because that's part of the mystique for them is to 307 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 1: can I get away with this kind of attitude. Little 308 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 1: did anyone realize at the time that multiple women seemingly 309 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:26,399 Speaker 1: went missing throughout the area brewing was this take a 310 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: listen to our friends a crime online. William Mansfield Junior, 311 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 1: known as Billy, is the son of a convicted sex offender, 312 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 1: William Mansfield Senior. From the mid nineteen seventies. Billy Mansfield 313 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: Junior spent time in jail for sexually assaulting a minor. 314 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 1: His sentence was cut short when he agreed to testify 315 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: against a cell mate. Before long, Mansfield Junior was back 316 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 1: in prison for assaulting two teenagers. In addition to sexual assault, 317 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 1: mansfild Junior was convicted of battery and kidnapping. After serving 318 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 1: that sentence, Mansfield Junior moved to California to work on 319 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: a mushroom farm. With his brother, Gary Mansfield. So what 320 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: does a mushroom farm and a convicted sex offender in 321 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:12,440 Speaker 1: California have to do with a missing sixteen year old girl, 322 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:18,439 Speaker 1: Teresa in Florida? And what does a woman named Renee 323 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 1: Salinge have to do with this? Take a listen to 324 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:26,400 Speaker 1: our friend Dave matt. Soon after arriving in California, Mansfield 325 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,400 Speaker 1: Junior's first murder took place, one of five he would 326 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,119 Speaker 1: be convicted of in nineteen eighty two. At that time, 327 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,400 Speaker 1: the body of Renee Sailing was recovered from a ditch Sailing, 328 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: a twenty nine year old mother, was sexually assaulted and 329 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: then strangled. In the ensuing media coverage of Sailing's murder, 330 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:45,439 Speaker 1: authorities received a tip more bodies might be found on 331 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: a Florida property that the Mansfield brothers owned. Acting on 332 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,199 Speaker 1: that information, police recovered four sets of remains on the 333 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:56,159 Speaker 1: property owned by the Mansfields in Florida. That is the 334 00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 1: connection to Florida. Joining me from Oxten not calm is 335 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 1: Jackson Miller Jacks Again, thanks for being with us. So 336 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: tell me about this registered sex offender on a mushroom 337 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:13,360 Speaker 1: farm in California. What do we know about him, so 338 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: he was kind of living where he worked. It was 339 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: it was almost like a compound kind of thing. He 340 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 1: was living with his brother Gary in Santa Cruz and 341 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: shortly after that's when he met Renee at a bar 342 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: in December nineteen eighty. So that's what we know about 343 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: that much of it. And it wasn't until Renee's body 344 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,679 Speaker 1: was found and then they started looking for Billy and 345 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,640 Speaker 1: his brother. That's when the tips are called from Florida. Says, yeah, 346 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: you might want to look at Billy's property back here 347 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 1: in Florida. You know, that's a call that nobody wants 348 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: to hear to you, Dale Carson, to find out that 349 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 1: a sex predator with a horrible criminal history has been 350 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: let out. Then you find a body, a dead body 351 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,400 Speaker 1: of a woman lasting with him, and then you get 352 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 1: the call, yeah, you know what, he's got a remote 353 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:06,199 Speaker 1: property in Florida. Better check it out. That's enough to 354 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 1: turn your stomach over in a flipplop. Well, you're exactly right, because, 355 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 1: particularly if the property ends up being in a fairly 356 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 1: rural area where not many other people have access, and 357 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,360 Speaker 1: then you begin the process whether or not there might 358 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:26,440 Speaker 1: be evidence of other homicides in that particular area, as 359 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 1: we now learn, was specifically the case. So in addition 360 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: to renee selling in California as he heard, acting on 361 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 1: that tip, cops head to Florida, Florida authorities in on 362 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:47,400 Speaker 1: it as well to uncover a virtual burial ground take 363 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: a list of our friends crime online. Of the fourth 364 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 1: sets of remains found on the Mansfield property in Florida, 365 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: two were identified fairly quickly. The first to be identified 366 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: was a woman named Sandra Jean Graham, who was twenty 367 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: one years old when she appeared in nineteen eighty. The 368 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: second to be identified was fifteen year old Elaine Ziggler 369 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,400 Speaker 1: from Ohio. She disappeared while camping with her family in Florida. 370 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 1: Two additional bodies could not be identified. Court documents revealed 371 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 1: that Mansfield Senior, Mansfield Junior, and Gary Mansfield all sexually 372 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 1: assaulted the victims. Mansfield Junior then killed and dismembered them. 373 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,160 Speaker 1: Have to decide where to start with all of that information, 374 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: But do you, Scott Johnson? You've got three devils straight 375 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 1: from hell. The devil and two minions. Three guys related 376 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: are sex attacking and murdering women systematically and then burying them. 377 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: I mean, what happens in the mind of a perp 378 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,120 Speaker 1: when they get with other perps. I've always noticed this 379 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,879 Speaker 1: when you're I've noticed that defendens will do things with 380 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: other like minded doers that they may not do on 381 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: their own. But somehow the three of them working together 382 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 1: thought it was okay to kidnap women, torture them, rape them, 383 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:14,679 Speaker 1: sodomize them, murder them, and bury them on their own 384 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,440 Speaker 1: private burial ground. Right. So, once we have the social 385 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: support and in this case the familial support, now people 386 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 1: are more embraveing, more embolded, and they likely become more 387 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 1: statistic because now they have to kind of all do 388 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 1: each other, but they've got each other for support. You 389 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 1: know that is a nightmare for somebody like you, doctor 390 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 1: Michelle do pretty well, maybe not, this is your line 391 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: of business. So in this remote Florida rural outpost, four 392 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 1: bodies so far have been found. How do they know 393 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 1: by just looking at them, because they're totally skeletonized, that 394 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: they're all women? And how from just the body alone 395 00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: could you make an identification without DNA? Those are very 396 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: good questions. The way that we can tell with the 397 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 1: sex of the bones that we find are by looking 398 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 1: at certain bones the jawline, for one. We can look 399 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 1: at the palvic bone, which is really a giveaway because 400 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,400 Speaker 1: you know, women are built so that they can have children. 401 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: A male's palvice is much different. We can also look 402 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 1: at other characteristics of the body or of the bones, 403 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: and one of the things that we that we often 404 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: do is we try to look at the general height 405 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: or weight of the bones to match them up with 406 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 1: those that might be missing. Do men's bones actually weigh 407 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 1: more than women's bones? They do, very slightly, of course, 408 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 1: because men are typically larger. But the long bones are 409 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,400 Speaker 1: typically larger in males and they are in females again 410 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: as well, as the skull is made very differently, and 411 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: you can de try to not find looking at you 412 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 1: said a male skull is different from a female skull. 413 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: Did you just say that? I did? So let me guess. 414 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: Is the brain cavity for a female much bigger than 415 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 1: a male? It certainly should be nancy, but it's not 416 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: typically just curious. Um, now back to see the guys 417 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: on the palet, I think they even got that. But um, 418 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:24,679 Speaker 1: doctor Michelde, pray, while I have a kise my husband 419 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,119 Speaker 1: having a Hanster in his head running on a wheel, 420 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,919 Speaker 1: and that's what makes the brain work. Okay, but he 421 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: takes it in as a good sport. Flowing back towards 422 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: said earlier about the familial problem with this behavior, I'll 423 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 1: often see that as a nest of people because it 424 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: when you observe that conduct and other family members you 425 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: can to engage in it. And that's what makes these 426 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 1: folks so dangerous because they have a propensity for this 427 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:01,120 Speaker 1: behavior and they have a skill set that is occasioned 428 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: by repeated acts of this nature. Okay, call me crazy, 429 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,439 Speaker 1: but to you, Scott Johnson, I agree with what he 430 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: just said. Deal Carson, and in our home, I mean, 431 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 1: after I prosecuted with every miscreant in Fulton County, inner 432 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: City Atlanta, dapers John's killers, I swore like a sailor. 433 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 1: But when we had children, I'm said, David Lynch, do 434 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,400 Speaker 1: not curse in front of them ever, And I went clean. 435 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 1: It's hard because what you do, I mean, your children 436 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 1: are going to do the same thing that they see 437 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: you do. It's just that simple. And I know a 438 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: curseword is a pretty minor thing, but it extends to 439 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 1: what Deal Carson is saying. If you grow up with 440 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: that and your family's doing it, it's just part of 441 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 1: your familial indoctrination. Right, especially we're objecting women that sex 442 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: I'll just door talking openly about the use of pornography 443 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 1: or just again, how you know we degrade women that 444 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: were around and again in a minute you had that 445 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: social or familial support. You've got a monstrous situation because 446 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: many of our sex vetters don't have to direct support 447 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 1: for what they do. In this case, you've got family 448 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: supporting what they did and joining in. So dontor Michel Dupran, 449 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 1: I never got a clear answer, as Branch. Does a 450 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 1: male skeleton actually weigh more than a female skeleton, not 451 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: just because it's bigger, but is it more dense? Does 452 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 1: it wayh more? Well, again as it depends on the 453 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 1: age of the person and all of that, but typically 454 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: it does was slightly more. Yet interesting, I never knew 455 00:29:46,000 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 1: that time stories with Nancy Grace. So now we've got 456 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 1: four dead bodies, they're skeletonized. Now doctor dupre explained how 457 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: you can tell it's a woman, But how on just 458 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 1: a skeleton can you tell the idea? Doctor Dupree, Well, 459 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 1: oftentimes you cannot tell the Ida, Nancy, just on the 460 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 1: bones themselves, they would have to be analyzed. They would 461 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 1: need to be some DNA. How about the teeth, Yes, 462 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 1: perhaps dental records. But then remember you have to have 463 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: an idea of who that person is because you can 464 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 1: be asked to compare dental records. Yes, like fingerprints, you 465 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 1: can find a latent print at the crime scene. You 466 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 1: got to have somebody to compare it too. Yes, And 467 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 1: there's no database on the sky for dental records. That is. 468 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: I was just gonna say that would be quite an 469 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 1: advancement in criminal law if in the missing files we 470 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 1: had dental records. But you know that would require when 471 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 1: someone goes missing that their dental records be put in 472 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: a certain data bank. That has not happened yet. Now, 473 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 1: even though all the remains have not yet been identified, 474 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: suddenly a breakthrough take Listen to our friends at WTSP 475 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 1: Detectives tell us that back in nineteen eighty four sets 476 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: of human remains were found on the Mansfield family's property 477 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 1: located in spring Hill. Now, two sets of those human 478 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: remains were identified fairly quickly, but the other two that 479 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: was a different story. They were sent to several different 480 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 1: labs and investigators tried hard to figure out who exactly 481 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 1: those human remains belonged to. Now fast forward to forty 482 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 1: one years later, Teresa Phillingham's remains have now finally been 483 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: identified and from our friends at waing Wi. N K. 484 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: John's and her family heard nothing for forty two years 485 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 1: until last July when she got a call from the 486 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: Hernando County Sheriff's office, dropped the bomb on the and 487 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: said that we think we might have your sister's remains. 488 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 1: Those remains were found in nineteen eighty one, along with 489 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: those of four others, in the backyard of convicted serial 490 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 1: killer Billy Mansfield Junior's family home. It wasn't until last 491 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 1: year that Teresa's were identified. Margaret John's tells eight on 492 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: Your Side. Human remains found at this Springhill home belonging 493 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 1: to the family of convicted serial killer Billy Mansfield had 494 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 1: been identified as her missing seventeen year old sister. Neighbors 495 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: called at a house of horrors. Listened to our cut 496 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: seven from w FLA. Neighbors call it a house of horrors. 497 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: Court documents described the torture that took place here. In 498 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 1: October twenty twenty, the killer's brother, Gary Mansfield, tipped off 499 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 1: deputies to search the property after they arrested him on 500 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 1: drug charges. John says, last July, the Hernando County Sheriff's 501 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 1: cold case detective reached out to her, we're looking for 502 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 1: somebody who may have lost a sister in nineteen eighty 503 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 1: in Tampa, Florida or Hernando County area. No One, Yeah, 504 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:03,480 Speaker 1: you are hearing Teresa's sister recalling when she heard we're 505 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 1: looking for somebody who may have lost a sister in 506 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty in Tampa, Florida or Hernando County and she thought, Yeah, 507 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: that's going to be my sister. Joining me right now 508 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 1: is a very special guest, a DNA expert specialist, Cecy Moore, 509 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: chief genetic genealogist at Parabon Nano Labs. So happy to 510 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 1: have you, Cecy, as always explained, thank you. What happened. 511 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: So Hernando County submitted the unidentified human remains from that 512 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 1: site to Paravan and at our partner lab, we were 513 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 1: able to analyze that very degraded DNA who used told 514 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 1: genome sequencing, and then our incredible bioinformatic scientists repaired that 515 00:33:55,480 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 1: degraded DNA extracted out that bacterial contaminate that you can 516 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 1: see when bones have been in the environment for a 517 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 1: long time. They prepared a file that could then be 518 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,720 Speaker 1: uploaded to the jet match website and compare it against 519 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 1: the one point five million people approximately that are participating 520 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 1: in that site. Then we get a match list people 521 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 1: who share significant amounts of DNA with that unknown girl. 522 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 1: That's where my job starts. So when I looked at 523 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 1: that match list, I was thrilled because at the top 524 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 1: of that list, we had a handful of second cousins. 525 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,640 Speaker 1: So if you get second cousins, that's terrific. It means 526 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 1: that they will share great grandparents that unknown Jane Doe. 527 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,839 Speaker 1: And not only those, I had another handful of relatively 528 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 1: close matches, meaning third cousins approximately, so we don't have 529 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,840 Speaker 1: to go too far back in the family tree to 530 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: find that common ancestor and then come forward. And so 531 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 1: this was a very promising case for investor. You needed 532 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: genetic gemology. Guys, if you've never heard of Ccmore, she 533 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:10,920 Speaker 1: is incredible. She is with Parabond Laboratories Nano Labs at 534 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: parabond dot com and she is at ccmore dot com. 535 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 1: Cecmore dot com. Ccum, I couldn't understand every single thing 536 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 1: you said. I would have to write that downward for word. 537 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,280 Speaker 1: But what I think you said in regular people talk 538 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 1: is that you didn't have Teresa, the sixteen year old 539 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,920 Speaker 1: girls DNA on file, but when you took when they 540 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 1: took the DNA from the skeletonized body, you put it 541 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:48,839 Speaker 1: in to jedmatch with over a million people that are 542 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 1: on the database. Now you do that because it's not protected. 543 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 1: For instance, ancestry dot com. An investigator can't log into 544 00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 1: that because it's private. But you can't get into jedmatch. 545 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,840 Speaker 1: And you did, and you didn't find a match to 546 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 1: Teresa herself, but you find startling similarities. Introduce it it 547 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: is a second cousin related to Teresa because they're in 548 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:18,279 Speaker 1: jet match. Then you have a family to go by, 549 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 1: and then I guess the procedure after that will be 550 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 1: to go to them and say do you have someone missing? 551 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 1: Is that how it works? Say say, actually no. When 552 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 1: you have this much data to work with, you albums 553 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 1: never have to reach out to those matches. I just 554 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: have to build their family trees, find the patterns, the 555 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:41,279 Speaker 1: commonalities and hopefully common ancestors between the matches between the 556 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 1: people that share DNA with her, because the only reason 557 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 1: people would share significant amounts of DNA with her is 558 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 1: if they had common ancestors. So these second cousins shared 559 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 1: about three percent of their DNA. That translates to about 560 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 1: a second cousin relationship. But it's not just those matches, 561 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,880 Speaker 1: additional matches on the list. And so I was able 562 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:07,040 Speaker 1: to reverse engineer her family tree from building the family 563 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 1: trees of the people who share DNA with her. So 564 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,359 Speaker 1: it's building back in time and then flipping that true 565 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 1: upside down doing reverse genealogy coming forward in time, and 566 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 1: I found matches that connected to three of her grandparent lines. 567 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 1: So that's optimal when you have that much data that 568 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: you can piece it back together. You know, we all 569 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 1: have unique family trees other than our full sibling, and 570 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,319 Speaker 1: so there's going to only be one family that has 571 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 1: that unique set of ancestors. And so that led me 572 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,760 Speaker 1: right to her parents their marriage, and then I found 573 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,839 Speaker 1: her birth certificate in California, forked me out here in California, 574 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,200 Speaker 1: we have a public birth index, so I was actually 575 00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:54,520 Speaker 1: able to find her name. Sucymore. Has anybody told you 576 00:37:54,560 --> 00:38:01,839 Speaker 1: today you're incredible. You're amazing. I'm curiously very early right 577 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,239 Speaker 1: so I haven't heard it, but thank you so much, 578 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:06,759 Speaker 1: so much coming from you. I bet the people that 579 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:11,400 Speaker 1: know you well have probably begun to take your genius 580 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 1: for granted. But it's people like you that crack cases 581 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:21,920 Speaker 1: like this. So in addition to what CC is telling 582 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,439 Speaker 1: us from Paramond nano Labs, we also now know who 583 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:29,600 Speaker 1: is the rat. It was another brother of this bunch 584 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 1: who caught a drug charge and for some type of 585 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 1: lenient treatment, ratted out the burial ground that yielded at 586 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 1: least four bodies. Take a listen to our friend, Dave mac. 587 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:48,239 Speaker 1: Billy Mansfield Junior, and Gary Mansfield were arrested in Nevada. 588 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,719 Speaker 1: Gary Mansfield agreed to cooperate with the authorities and testify 589 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,440 Speaker 1: against Billy Mansfield. Mansfield Junior was convicted and sentenced to 590 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,480 Speaker 1: twenty five years to life behind bars. He also pleaded 591 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 1: guilty to murdering the four will girls recovered on the 592 00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 1: Mansfield property in Florida, as well as an attempted sexual 593 00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,960 Speaker 1: battery on a fifth victim. Mansfield Junior remains in prison 594 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:11,400 Speaker 1: at the California Healthcare Facility in Stockton. He's serving his 595 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,920 Speaker 1: sentence in California because that's where his first murder, that 596 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 1: a twenty nine year old mother, Renee Sailing, took place. 597 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:21,320 Speaker 1: And we're talking about Gary Mansfield and Billy Mansfield Junior. 598 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:26,360 Speaker 1: But believe it or not, there's a Mansfield the third 599 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:31,080 Speaker 1: take list now friends at w f LA. Billy Mansfield 600 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:33,360 Speaker 1: the Third is now living in Michigan with his family, 601 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 1: far from Florida and the home he spent much of 602 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 1: his childhood, a place he says now is a graveyard. Personally, 603 00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,279 Speaker 1: I think there's a lot. I just can't see how 604 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: somebody that could do that. He's going to stop at one, 605 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,680 Speaker 1: and if there was four and five, if you didn't 606 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:50,600 Speaker 1: stop at one, you ain't stopping at four and five. 607 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 1: He does hope, however, that investigators continue to search the 608 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:57,960 Speaker 1: property for bodies, a place he once called home, as 609 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,239 Speaker 1: do I It's hard for me to believe that they 610 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:07,799 Speaker 1: stopped at body number four. We wait as justice unfolds, 611 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:12,360 Speaker 1: but for now, the family of teen girl Teresa Fillingen 612 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 1: gets the end of the story. Nancy Grace crimes story, 613 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:19,680 Speaker 1: shunning off, Goodbye for