1
00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:10,399
Speaker 1: A little boy disappears seemingly into thin air. What does

2
00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:14,240
Speaker 1: that have to do with a grown man miles and

3
00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:20,479
Speaker 1: miles away who is a so called furry I'm Nancy Grace.

4
00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:23,320
Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us

5
00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:26,520
Speaker 1: here at Fox Nation and Serious X twenty eleven. First

6
00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:29,479
Speaker 1: of all, take a listen to our friends at k SL.

7
00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:32,159
Speaker 1: We do have a breaking development tonight in the search

8
00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,600
Speaker 1: for a thirteen year old Layton boy. Layton Police identifying

9
00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:38,519
Speaker 1: the suspect by name for the very first time tonight

10
00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:42,000
Speaker 1: as twenty six year old Aaron Zeeman. Earlier, they went

11
00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,120
Speaker 1: by the alias city used on social media, and also

12
00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:48,280
Speaker 1: have an updated description of the car, a white nineteen

13
00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:51,520
Speaker 1: ninety eight Toyota Avalon. Meanwhile, the mother of the boy

14
00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:55,600
Speaker 1: pleading tonight for his safe return. Can you imagine your

15
00:00:55,840 --> 00:01:00,720
Speaker 1: little boy just seemingly vanishing and you haven't no idea

16
00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:04,560
Speaker 1: where he is, and then you find out that somehow

17
00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:09,880
Speaker 1: some perv has been communicating with him online. Take a

18
00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,520
Speaker 1: listen again to our friends at KSL. At times, she

19
00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,960
Speaker 1: broke down in tears, just an incredibly trying and difficult

20
00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:19,000
Speaker 1: time for her and her family. She tells us that

21
00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:21,520
Speaker 1: she believes she was doing everything right, trying to keep

22
00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:25,000
Speaker 1: calves on her son, and still somehow this happened in

23
00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:28,320
Speaker 1: the middle of an everyday suburban neighborhood. It felt like

24
00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,880
Speaker 1: every day typical parenting. I monitor to all of his things.

25
00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:36,440
Speaker 1: I monitored his game playing time, his bones. And then

26
00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:40,360
Speaker 1: one day weeks ago, everything changed. I opened his phone

27
00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:43,800
Speaker 1: up and that's kind of where I stumbled upon conversations

28
00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:46,720
Speaker 1: and it just turned into kind of a rabbit hole.

29
00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,920
Speaker 1: Heather mcconnie discovered her thirteen year old son, Evan, had

30
00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:53,400
Speaker 1: been talking to this stranger online through a game called Roadblocks.

31
00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:55,640
Speaker 1: With me and All Star Panel to make sense of

32
00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,120
Speaker 1: what we know right now. But first I want to

33
00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:03,200
Speaker 1: go out to Tanya George, the chief parenting marketing officer

34
00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:08,560
Speaker 1: at Bark Technologies, author of Parenting in a Tech World.

35
00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,240
Speaker 1: To Tanya, thank you for being with us. For those

36
00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:15,239
Speaker 1: that don't know what is Roadblocks, Roadblocks is a very

37
00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:18,040
Speaker 1: popular game. It's actually one of the most popular video

38
00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:20,680
Speaker 1: games in the United States for children five to twelve,

39
00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:25,400
Speaker 1: and it's essentially a bunch of random games that people

40
00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:29,160
Speaker 1: have created. It's a platform hosting literally millions of games

41
00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,480
Speaker 1: that people can choose to play m oh. Taking everything

42
00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:34,600
Speaker 1: you just said and everything you just said, it sounds

43
00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:38,799
Speaker 1: awfully innocent. It sounds like me playing Connect four, Monopoly

44
00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:43,840
Speaker 1: or Go Fish. But it's not. I think to Tania,

45
00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:47,320
Speaker 1: and I certainly demure to your expertise in this field,

46
00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:50,080
Speaker 1: that you left out something really important. You don't just

47
00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,160
Speaker 1: play games with yourself like Solitaire. You play with other

48
00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:56,639
Speaker 1: people online that you don't know. How does that work? Yeah,

49
00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,800
Speaker 1: you know with any platform that has user generated content

50
00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,320
Speaker 1: and an in game chat feature waite a man, whoa

51
00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:10,960
Speaker 1: whoa white? Right? Any game that has quote user generated content. Now,

52
00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:13,040
Speaker 1: I could think about that for a while, but why

53
00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:14,639
Speaker 1: don't you just tell me what you mean by that.

54
00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:19,000
Speaker 1: I mean that people are creating an uploading content, just

55
00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:23,040
Speaker 1: like they can to YouTube or any other social media platform.

56
00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:27,880
Speaker 1: So people are in charge of uploading the games, the characters,

57
00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:31,640
Speaker 1: the storylines. Two roadblocks. That's part of the problem. But

58
00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:34,320
Speaker 1: the larger problem, or where the danger really lies, is

59
00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:38,160
Speaker 1: in the in game chat feature that means your child

60
00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:42,120
Speaker 1: can be talking to anyone, including adults, including furries. I

61
00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:44,400
Speaker 1: was just writing down the word Fortnite. Do you remember

62
00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:46,280
Speaker 1: when that was the Big Christ? Maybe it still is.

63
00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,400
Speaker 1: I don't know. My son praised the Lord made the

64
00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,480
Speaker 1: basketball team at school, and so now that's taking up

65
00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:57,440
Speaker 1: all his time and not Fortnite and Minecraft and just

66
00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:01,000
Speaker 1: so many others. But I remember him telling me that

67
00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:06,440
Speaker 1: one of his little friends had spent three hundred dollars

68
00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,520
Speaker 1: on outfits. I call them outfits. I think they call

69
00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:11,560
Speaker 1: them skins or I don't know what they call them.

70
00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:17,640
Speaker 1: For the player in Fortnite to wear, okay, imaginary clothes

71
00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:23,320
Speaker 1: for an imaginary character on for ten game. Three hundred dollars.

72
00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:27,960
Speaker 1: And I know that this is real to them, but

73
00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:32,400
Speaker 1: that's real money. My point is, and they're playing with

74
00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:36,760
Speaker 1: real people. I would always tell Lucy's never been tempted

75
00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,039
Speaker 1: to play any of these games. But I would always

76
00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:43,680
Speaker 1: tell my son, how do you know that Danny is

77
00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:48,440
Speaker 1: not a sixty year old guy in his underwear in

78
00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,680
Speaker 1: front of a screen eating popcorn in New Jersey? How

79
00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:53,360
Speaker 1: do you know that? Why do you think he's an

80
00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:55,560
Speaker 1: eleven year old kid like you. On top of that,

81
00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:57,840
Speaker 1: you know, not many kids have three hundred dollars and

82
00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:01,920
Speaker 1: disposable income. He didn't either. They use his parents credit card. Well,

83
00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,200
Speaker 1: you know, but that's the way that predators wore children

84
00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,800
Speaker 1: they lean into their desire or roebucks or other in

85
00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,880
Speaker 1: game currency, so they can't get the skin, so they

86
00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,520
Speaker 1: can't get the upgrade. Right, it really is called a skin.

87
00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:18,640
Speaker 1: I can't believe I remember that it's called a skin. Yes, wow, okay, well,

88
00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,800
Speaker 1: actually it looks like painted on skin. I looked at

89
00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,120
Speaker 1: what this kid had spent three hundred dollars on. I'm like,

90
00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,800
Speaker 1: I did his parents know? And the parents didn't know

91
00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:30,640
Speaker 1: yet they hadn't gotten their receipt. Okay, we're talking about Well,

92
00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,400
Speaker 1: actually I've gotten this a way off track with Titania

93
00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,279
Speaker 1: Jordan from Bark, which I have. And this is not

94
00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,000
Speaker 1: a plug by me. Nobody asked me to say it.

95
00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,320
Speaker 1: I'm certainly not getting paid to say it. But I

96
00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:47,760
Speaker 1: really like your Bark technology because every time the technology

97
00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:52,400
Speaker 1: picks up a word that they find troubling, maybe it's

98
00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,200
Speaker 1: a curse word, maybe it's a self harm word like

99
00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:59,640
Speaker 1: bruise or bully or calling names something like that, and

100
00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,320
Speaker 1: Aedily alerts me on my cell phone. Now, so far,

101
00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:05,840
Speaker 1: every time I've gone back, it's either been part of

102
00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:08,919
Speaker 1: some text chain with some of their horrible little friends,

103
00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:14,280
Speaker 1: or it's been part of another video from like YouTube

104
00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:17,320
Speaker 1: that somebody sent them or that came to them. So far,

105
00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,359
Speaker 1: they haven't uttered any of that. Praise the Lord. But

106
00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:24,240
Speaker 1: let me move forward. I'm talking about not Skins on Fortnite,

107
00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:28,040
Speaker 1: but I'm talking about a little boy who's what Nicole

108
00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:31,520
Speaker 1: Partners joining me Crime Online dot Com investigative reporter, Nicole.

109
00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:35,000
Speaker 1: What game is he playing? What is this this little

110
00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:41,279
Speaker 1: boy doing? Evan? Evan is communicating through Oculus, through a

111
00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,200
Speaker 1: virtual reality Oh, dear Lord in Heaven, my head is

112
00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:49,280
Speaker 1: spinning around. That's the white headset you put on. And yes,

113
00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,440
Speaker 1: I tried to sit down on a chair and nearly

114
00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:55,440
Speaker 1: broke my neck when John David got an Oculus because

115
00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,279
Speaker 1: there wasn't a chair there. I was playing virtual reality

116
00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,200
Speaker 1: with John David and thought I was doing great, and

117
00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,320
Speaker 1: I just sat down and what appeared to be a chair,

118
00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:08,039
Speaker 1: well it was nothing, and I sat down and ended

119
00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:11,360
Speaker 1: up on the floor. But God bless him, he didn't laugh.

120
00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:16,000
Speaker 1: Achulus is a virtual reality headset. If it's all the

121
00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,440
Speaker 1: way around your head and it seems like you're really

122
00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:24,560
Speaker 1: in another place. Warning, don't sit down, Nicole. He's playing.

123
00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:29,560
Speaker 1: He's got on an adula's headset. But he's playing this game,

124
00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,880
Speaker 1: right he is. He's playing this game, and going back

125
00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:36,760
Speaker 1: to what we just heard, he's able to chat and

126
00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:40,600
Speaker 1: communicate with others who are logged into this game. He

127
00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:45,200
Speaker 1: was also communicating with this individual through the old fashioned Twitter,

128
00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,400
Speaker 1: which we're all familiar with. He was also talking to

129
00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:52,000
Speaker 1: him on Twitter and had communications going through that source

130
00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:55,280
Speaker 1: as well. I'm just trying to process everything that the

131
00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:58,560
Speaker 1: two of you are telling me, because first people said, oh,

132
00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:03,360
Speaker 1: it happened on achulas. This is not a platform. Oculus

133
00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:07,560
Speaker 1: is a device that you put on your face around

134
00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,880
Speaker 1: your head and you see virtual reality. They're really need

135
00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:14,720
Speaker 1: they're very realistic, but you can get I guess I

136
00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:17,559
Speaker 1: would say games for a lack of a better word,

137
00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:22,480
Speaker 1: that typically many people think you would see on a screen, okay,

138
00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:26,640
Speaker 1: like a laptop or a gaming laptop or even a monitor,

139
00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:31,320
Speaker 1: but it's on the device on your head, the oculus.

140
00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,080
Speaker 1: So he's playing this game and you just told me

141
00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:37,120
Speaker 1: to call parton that he communicated with the guy that

142
00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,000
Speaker 1: is a furry? Is that what you said? That's right?

143
00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:45,679
Speaker 1: So twenty six year old Aaron Zeeman identifies as a furry.

144
00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:51,720
Speaker 1: He has a self professed puppy fetish Stop right there.

145
00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,040
Speaker 1: They did not teach me this in law school. I

146
00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:58,559
Speaker 1: never had a case that I knew of where somebody

147
00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:04,679
Speaker 1: was a furry. Luckily, I do know the phone number. Oh,

148
00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:08,360
Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall, high profile psycho alas joining me out

149
00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:10,560
Speaker 1: of Beverly Hills. I bet you've seen a lot of

150
00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:13,520
Speaker 1: furries out in Beverly Hills, Doctor Bethany. You can find

151
00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,840
Speaker 1: her at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com and she's a

152
00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:22,160
Speaker 1: star of Bling Empire on Netflix. Bethany, hit me tell

153
00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:25,360
Speaker 1: me everything I need to know. Okay, well that's on

154
00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,760
Speaker 1: a need to know basis. Need to know about furries

155
00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:30,760
Speaker 1: because I want to figure out how in the hey,

156
00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:34,800
Speaker 1: this little boy you just turn thirteen, he's just barely

157
00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:40,160
Speaker 1: twelve years old, is talking to a furry fetishist online

158
00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:44,200
Speaker 1: that somehow kidnaps him. Oh, Nancy, I don't even know

159
00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,720
Speaker 1: where to start, and I'm a little afraid in terms

160
00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,040
Speaker 1: of what I can say on air here. But furies

161
00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,800
Speaker 1: are a group of men who are a fetishized community.

162
00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,319
Speaker 1: And when I see fetishized, I mean that their sexual

163
00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:02,640
Speaker 1: interest is in tested in the idea of fur and

164
00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:06,800
Speaker 1: in the case of this pedophile pedophilia, children rather than

165
00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:10,080
Speaker 1: having true relationships with the people around them. So there's

166
00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:15,520
Speaker 1: all kinds of fetishized communities that gather together online. There

167
00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:18,680
Speaker 1: are chubby chasers, you know, men who like other men

168
00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:23,560
Speaker 1: who are obese. There are furies. There are people who

169
00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:26,439
Speaker 1: have puppy fetishes. Okay, just stuff right there a place.

170
00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:30,679
Speaker 1: What's a puppy fetish? I don't even want to say, Nancy,

171
00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:35,720
Speaker 1: I you know what you deal with with sex fetishists

172
00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:40,600
Speaker 1: all day long, and then when I guess fairly normal

173
00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:44,040
Speaker 1: person ask you a question, you clamb up and get shy.

174
00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,280
Speaker 1: What is a puppy fetishist? Well, let me just say

175
00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:53,160
Speaker 1: two things about this. I did treat a patients few

176
00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:57,040
Speaker 1: years ago who had an animal fetish called when you

177
00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:00,360
Speaker 1: call it a puppy fetish, you're kind of you you're

178
00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,000
Speaker 1: to use your phrase putting perfume on the pig. But

179
00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:07,160
Speaker 1: he had a sexual attraction towards the animal. Okay, I

180
00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,320
Speaker 1: wasn't sure if he wanted to have relations with a

181
00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:13,520
Speaker 1: puppy or if you wanted to be a puppy. Is

182
00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:17,520
Speaker 1: it one or the other or both? Well, there are

183
00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:20,559
Speaker 1: two things that come to mind. One is the stality.

184
00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,080
Speaker 1: The other is in certain communities they'd love to do

185
00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,880
Speaker 1: something called a puppy pile. Have you ever heard of that?

186
00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:31,000
Speaker 1: Thankfully no, but I think you're going to enlighten me. Yes,

187
00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,160
Speaker 1: a puppy pile is with a group of men go

188
00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,240
Speaker 1: on a retreat. Why is it always men? No offense,

189
00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:41,800
Speaker 1: Derek Ellington? But why is it always men? Are there

190
00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:45,360
Speaker 1: any women furies? There's gotta be yes, there are no

191
00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:50,000
Speaker 1: women furies? Jackie. You answered a little too quickly? Is

192
00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:56,040
Speaker 1: that Jerry Ellington wants and certify forensic examiner license private

193
00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:01,840
Speaker 1: investigator Ellington Digital Forensics www dot Ellington dot net. That

194
00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:04,960
Speaker 1: was a mouthful. Also with a Wendy Murphy, you know

195
00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:10,680
Speaker 1: her well, Professor of Sexual Violence Law at New England

196
00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:15,160
Speaker 1: Law co Director Women's and Children's Advocacy Project. It goes

197
00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:18,719
Speaker 1: on and on and on, Wendy, thank you for joining us.

198
00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:21,680
Speaker 1: Darry Ellington jump in, well in first, I want to

199
00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,360
Speaker 1: say that that I want to make sure that we

200
00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:28,800
Speaker 1: understand that there are there's a range, there's a spectrum.

201
00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:31,839
Speaker 1: There are people men and women who you know, they

202
00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:35,200
Speaker 1: have conventions. They like to dress up in very elaborate costumes,

203
00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:37,640
Speaker 1: they like to pretend to be different kind of animals,

204
00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:39,760
Speaker 1: and for a large portion of them, it's not a

205
00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:43,839
Speaker 1: sexual thing. The problem, just like anything else, is that

206
00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:49,079
Speaker 1: you do have groups that, you know, gravitate towards the

207
00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:52,360
Speaker 1: deviance of it, and that's where the concern is. And

208
00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:56,280
Speaker 1: as she stated, yes, there are people who who approach

209
00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:58,520
Speaker 1: it from a sexual standpoint, but I think it's also

210
00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,079
Speaker 1: important to know that there is a I hate to

211
00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:05,440
Speaker 1: say mainstream, but there is a somewhat normal element to

212
00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,320
Speaker 1: it of people who just like to wear costumes. Okay,

213
00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:13,520
Speaker 1: Dared Ellington, maybe in your world is normal, but FYI,

214
00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,920
Speaker 1: it's not normal and everybody else's world. Yeah to two

215
00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:18,640
Speaker 1: eye of the beholder. But I want to I do

216
00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,240
Speaker 1: want to address something when we were talking about the

217
00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:25,000
Speaker 1: Oculus and you know, mom talking about taking the steps.

218
00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:27,240
Speaker 1: The one thing we have to remember with any of

219
00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,880
Speaker 1: these electronic devices, any of these gaming devices, even your

220
00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:35,199
Speaker 1: firestick used to watch TV, if it has a web

221
00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:39,720
Speaker 1: browser like Oculus does, like Nintendo DS, is do you

222
00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:42,320
Speaker 1: have the whole of the Internet at your disposal. So

223
00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:47,360
Speaker 1: while parents often view these things as gaming systems, they're

224
00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:50,280
Speaker 1: effectively still cell phones. You know, they have headsets, they

225
00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,520
Speaker 1: have cameras, they have access to the Internet, and parents

226
00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,280
Speaker 1: need to understand that. Another thing I wanted to point

227
00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:04,160
Speaker 1: out Roadblocks while we're focusing on the misuse of Roadblocks,

228
00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,200
Speaker 1: it is a very valuable thing. It is a good

229
00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,640
Speaker 1: community kids can play and interact with other kids. What

230
00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:14,960
Speaker 1: is important is that Roadblocks has tools to make sure

231
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,280
Speaker 1: that your children can only chat. There are settings they

232
00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,200
Speaker 1: can only chat with people on their friends list, and

233
00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:24,960
Speaker 1: it's important that parents know who those friends are. If

234
00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,920
Speaker 1: you wouldn't let a random stranger come and sit on

235
00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,240
Speaker 1: your couch and play video games with your kid, you

236
00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:32,400
Speaker 1: shouldn't let them do it over the internet. And it's

237
00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:34,800
Speaker 1: very important. And I guess the final thing I will

238
00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:40,240
Speaker 1: throw out there is the best that there's monitoring, there's blocking,

239
00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,840
Speaker 1: but there's also talking to your kids. If your kids

240
00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,560
Speaker 1: are excited about a game or a platform, listen to them,

241
00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,720
Speaker 1: let them tell you about it. And as we always say,

242
00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:52,840
Speaker 1: if they won't talk to you about the little stuff,

243
00:14:53,080 --> 00:15:07,520
Speaker 1: they won't come to you with the big stuff. Crime

244
00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:12,600
Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace joining me right now. Wendy Murphy,

245
00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:16,240
Speaker 1: former child sex abuse and sex crimes prosecutor out of Middlesex,

246
00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:20,200
Speaker 1: professor of Sex and Miles, New England Law and Boston,

247
00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,560
Speaker 1: contributing editor with a sex assault report and author of

248
00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:27,920
Speaker 1: and Justice for Some Wendy Murphy, thank you for being

249
00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:30,400
Speaker 1: with us jump In. This is one of those stories

250
00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:33,840
Speaker 1: that really caught my interests because I actually have several

251
00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:37,480
Speaker 1: cases right now, pending cases with real kids, all of

252
00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,360
Speaker 1: my clients having to be girls, but of course boys

253
00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,200
Speaker 1: are equally vulnerable. They're all in that same age range

254
00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:47,680
Speaker 1: twelve to thirteen, all of them very well cared for

255
00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,480
Speaker 1: and monitored by their parents, and all of them fell

256
00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,440
Speaker 1: victim in one way or another. Luckily none have been kidnapped.

257
00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,120
Speaker 1: But I want to say a couple of things. One is,

258
00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:58,920
Speaker 1: even when you are doing everything right as a parent,

259
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,280
Speaker 1: there's still, you know, a community out there or predators

260
00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:04,240
Speaker 1: who will find a way to find your child. We

261
00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:06,160
Speaker 1: just need to know that there's nothing you can do

262
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,360
Speaker 1: that's perfect, but you have to do as much as possible.

263
00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,440
Speaker 1: And one of the things the parents of my clients

264
00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:14,960
Speaker 1: have told me is they didn't think they had to

265
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:19,480
Speaker 1: have this tough conversation about deviant sexual stuff online until

266
00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,080
Speaker 1: their kids were a little bit older, and that may

267
00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:25,280
Speaker 1: have been true some years ago, but what I've been hearing,

268
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,080
Speaker 1: especially from the experts in the community who care about

269
00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:31,440
Speaker 1: sexual exploitation of children, is that you really have to

270
00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,760
Speaker 1: start having that conversation around nine or ten, before they

271
00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,520
Speaker 1: hit puberty, because that's when they become super vulnerable. And

272
00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:41,640
Speaker 1: by vulnerable, I mean they're not only going through a

273
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:46,280
Speaker 1: really tough time, and they're entering puberty, which can be exciting,

274
00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:50,560
Speaker 1: not just you know, challenging physiologically, but exciting to them.

275
00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,920
Speaker 1: When they're reaching sexuality and starting to figure out what

276
00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,840
Speaker 1: it means to have sexual feelings, that's when they're the

277
00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:59,640
Speaker 1: most vulnerable. That's also when they're least likely to talk

278
00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,560
Speaker 1: to their parents because it's about sex. So you have

279
00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:06,959
Speaker 1: to reach them before that happens and get them thinking about, unfortunately,

280
00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,360
Speaker 1: these terrible things so that they can anticipate and see

281
00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,200
Speaker 1: it and recognize it and know that it's bad, not fun,

282
00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:16,000
Speaker 1: not exciting, not my friend, not a guy I should

283
00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:19,560
Speaker 1: go meet with, but really a dangerous, really dangerous person.

284
00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,679
Speaker 1: Nine or ten sounds super young, but it probably is

285
00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:25,680
Speaker 1: the age when parents need to start having these conversations.

286
00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:27,520
Speaker 1: And let me just say one of the quick things.

287
00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:31,280
Speaker 1: When I hear language like furry and minor attracted person

288
00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:33,959
Speaker 1: and even the word pedophile, I want to rip my

289
00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:39,560
Speaker 1: skin off because those are arguably euphemistic versions of the

290
00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:44,240
Speaker 1: word rapits. I agree on Wendy Murphy, you are so right,

291
00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,119
Speaker 1: and Wendy, I'm going to read them and just a

292
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,119
Speaker 1: moment unless I can cajole Nicole Parton to do it.

293
00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:55,280
Speaker 1: Have you seen what this guy is saying to this

294
00:17:55,320 --> 00:18:01,240
Speaker 1: little boy about having furry sex with Yes turned thirteen

295
00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,040
Speaker 1: a couple of months before he was twelve years old.

296
00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:08,679
Speaker 1: That Turvolge is Nancy, Nancy. If I couldn't jump in

297
00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:12,119
Speaker 1: about this gentle moment, and Wendy is saying, to talk

298
00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,720
Speaker 1: to your your nine year old, I would say even

299
00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,920
Speaker 1: six seven, eight year old, Dear Lord and Heaven, Bethany, well,

300
00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:22,760
Speaker 1: hold on. You can always use developmentally appropriate language to

301
00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:24,720
Speaker 1: a six year old. You could even say, you know,

302
00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:28,760
Speaker 1: sometimes there's there's bad people. Not everyone's bad, but they're

303
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,160
Speaker 1: just a very concrete term. And by the time they

304
00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:34,639
Speaker 1: get to seven or eight, you can say, you know,

305
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,720
Speaker 1: some some adults may want to spend time with you

306
00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:41,399
Speaker 1: without telling mommy and daddy. You know, that is not

307
00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:43,399
Speaker 1: a good thing. But by the time they get to

308
00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:47,520
Speaker 1: eleven or twelve, the language begins to change. So find

309
00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:52,320
Speaker 1: out what your child's developmentally capable of understanding before you

310
00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:57,160
Speaker 1: have the Oh, dear Lord in Heaven. Sorry, Bethany, I

311
00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:02,080
Speaker 1: just look at a photo. Don't do that from the

312
00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:06,240
Speaker 1: Post Millennial? Is it the stocking? I was reading an article.

313
00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,680
Speaker 1: I was reading an article and I scrolled down and

314
00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,520
Speaker 1: here is who I think is the purpose in this case,

315
00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:17,280
Speaker 1: but naked. Except he's got on a pair of thigh

316
00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:23,840
Speaker 1: high striped socks and gloves to match, and he's wearing

317
00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:26,920
Speaker 1: kind of a cat hat. The rest of him is

318
00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:31,000
Speaker 1: naked and apparently he's sent this to the little boy. Well,

319
00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:33,479
Speaker 1: I'm not going to push it off on you. This

320
00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:39,040
Speaker 1: is one from Hunter Flufy Fox. A d. Nancy. This

321
00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:44,000
Speaker 1: is Titania at Hunter Horny Fox. What I just want

322
00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:49,280
Speaker 1: to say two things. One is why did Twitter allow

323
00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,680
Speaker 1: this type of content on their platform? We need to

324
00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,879
Speaker 1: tag there? Did I read the text? For Pete's sake?

325
00:19:56,119 --> 00:20:00,720
Speaker 1: Wait a minute, is this Titania? Yeah? I hate to

326
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,679
Speaker 1: reprimand you because you never jump in. Okay, all right,

327
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:07,320
Speaker 1: I'll reprimand myself for reprimanding you. Hold on, this is

328
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:14,240
Speaker 1: Hunter Horny Fox. I would do a backflip down the

329
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:19,919
Speaker 1: stairs if Hunter Horny Fox was communicating with one of

330
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,960
Speaker 1: my twins. This is why parents go shoot mollusters. This

331
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,680
Speaker 1: is why they do because honestly, right now, my fingers

332
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:30,639
Speaker 1: are tingling. Okay, my kids twenty seven, and let's do

333
00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:35,320
Speaker 1: this to eight, just turned thirteen year old, A frill

334
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:39,560
Speaker 1: looking twelve year old little boy. I love you so

335
00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,760
Speaker 1: heck and much, my lamb. I was looking at your

336
00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:47,600
Speaker 1: pictures and many uses. Lord's zing in vain. I want

337
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:52,639
Speaker 1: to slide into your throat so bad. Give daddy's tip

338
00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:57,720
Speaker 1: a little kiss. Then let me fill my baby boys

339
00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:04,560
Speaker 1: soft beautiful lips my love pretty please, babe. Then he

340
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,920
Speaker 1: goes on to say, which I started to say more disturbingly,

341
00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,159
Speaker 1: but I don't know what can be as disturbing is

342
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,800
Speaker 1: that my lamb and I are getting married on the

343
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:18,280
Speaker 1: trail we he I love you, my Lamb. I'm thinking

344
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:23,280
Speaker 1: about sharing some big news. Any mechanic furies in my

345
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,640
Speaker 1: neck of the desert helped me sure the new car

346
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:31,720
Speaker 1: is not broken. He's going to take the boy across

347
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:34,840
Speaker 1: the desert. Guys, take a listen to our cut for

348
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,280
Speaker 1: our friend Andrew Adams. Well, we initially found out what

349
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:41,840
Speaker 1: was going on. We took all means a way out.

350
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:45,399
Speaker 1: We knew that we thought anything we thought. The family

351
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,600
Speaker 1: handed the device over to Layton Police, but on Monday,

352
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:52,199
Speaker 1: just after the family returned from a holiday vacation, Trouble

353
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,800
Speaker 1: serviced again. He was communicating on an Oculus device with

354
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:59,600
Speaker 1: the suspect, and it had a record of their communication.

355
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,280
Speaker 1: Back in Portland, detectives believe Evan mcconnie left home just

356
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,720
Speaker 1: before midnight with the man they've since identified as Aaron

357
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,680
Speaker 1: Zeeman of Arizona. They say the shirtless, backpack wearing strangers

358
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,720
Speaker 1: seen here had used a fake name. The communication that

359
00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,159
Speaker 1: they'd had was of a nature that is quite concerning

360
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,720
Speaker 1: to us. Well, that's certainly one way of putting it,

361
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:23,200
Speaker 1: and I'll use my own phrise putting perfume on a pig.

362
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:29,280
Speaker 1: It's of sexual content, luring a just turned thirteen year

363
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,879
Speaker 1: oh little boy through his game he's playing on a

364
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,840
Speaker 1: device and more from KSL. Listen, I don't understand what

365
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:41,720
Speaker 1: this person had on my son, what grasp he had

366
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:46,880
Speaker 1: on him that convinced to him. Does a block away.

367
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 1: Mom has been completely distraught since any parent who would

368
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 1: be standing in this position has an idea of the

369
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 1: words that I would want to say, but I won't

370
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,360
Speaker 1: do that. She's open HER's son or return home safely.

371
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:08,000
Speaker 1: Nobody's mad at you. We get it, We understand where

372
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:12,159
Speaker 1: you're a family. We're not going anywhere. We'll always be

373
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 1: here for you no matter what. Please come home. Do

374
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:20,680
Speaker 1: you know how these ordeals typically end and the death

375
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:24,399
Speaker 1: the murdyr of the child. The search is on for

376
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 1: the so called furry who says he is quote in

377
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:32,920
Speaker 1: love with the little boy. Listen to Andrew Adams KSL

378
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 1: just repeating one more time that police just within the

379
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,360
Speaker 1: last little bit coming out with suspect information, new suspect

380
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,600
Speaker 1: information looking for twenty six year old Aaron Zeeman of Arizona,

381
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,879
Speaker 1: also goes by the name Tadashi Kojima. He is driving

382
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 1: a nineteen ninety eight white Toyota Avalon with damage to

383
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:52,160
Speaker 1: the front grille, temporary Arizona plate of two two two

384
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 1: two five MP. Anybody with information called Laton Police. Well

385
00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,240
Speaker 1: the way that as I understand it, Nicole Partons wanting

386
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:04,640
Speaker 1: me from crime online dot Com. Cops figured out the

387
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,920
Speaker 1: license tag was that they looked on the Sun's oculus

388
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,440
Speaker 1: and they got the screen name or even the real name,

389
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:15,680
Speaker 1: and then backtracked it through registration records and dm V

390
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 1: Department of Motor Vehicles and got the car make and

391
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 1: model and the license plate. Then the search was on.

392
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 1: Is that how they did it? Nicole Parton, Right, that's correct.

393
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:31,399
Speaker 1: And we have to remember too that the parents had

394
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:36,159
Speaker 1: alerted authorities of this gentleman's screen name after seeing it

395
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 1: on their son's phone. And isn't it should Nicole Parton,

396
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:43,880
Speaker 1: The parents say they thought they did everything quote right.

397
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:48,160
Speaker 1: They took away Evans devices. They did at one point

398
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:52,640
Speaker 1: they made him aware of the dangers online. They were

399
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,199
Speaker 1: doing everything right, correct, right, They took the phone, they

400
00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 1: took the laptop, they had the conversations, but in the end,

401
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 1: that gaming device was left in the room. And going

402
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 1: back to what we've heard, our experts say that gaming

403
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 1: device is open access. You know something Wendy Murphy just said,

404
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 1: following up on what Nicole Partner is saying that any

405
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 1: gaming device, or as Darry Ellington said, even your firestick

406
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 1: that you may use to control your TVs, it has

407
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:28,880
Speaker 1: web access. Wendy Murphy that one thing the oculus, And

408
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 1: you were saying, Wendy, no matter how hard you try,

409
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,880
Speaker 1: you got to realize the predators. It's like the devil. Yep,

410
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:40,160
Speaker 1: never give up. Once they want your child, they'll do

411
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:45,160
Speaker 1: anything to get your child. Yes, And technologically speaking, they

412
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 1: are always a step ahead, not just a step ahead

413
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,160
Speaker 1: of parents, but usually a step ahead, a step ahead

414
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 1: of law enforcement. And technologically speaking, they're even sometimes ahead

415
00:25:55,320 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 1: of the protective mechanisms that platforms have in place to

416
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 1: protect kids. So you know, to me, the big bad

417
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 1: guy in this story, Nancy, is law enforcement. I mean

418
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,360
Speaker 1: the mom they went to the police, they said, look

419
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,719
Speaker 1: what this guy is saying, and you read some of it.

420
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,239
Speaker 1: Look what this man is saying to my child. And

421
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,719
Speaker 1: what did the police say, Sorry, nothing we can do.

422
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 1: Keep doing a good job monitoring. Well, you know the

423
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 1: reality is, and that's exactly what cops have said in

424
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 1: the cases that I'm managing right now on behalf of

425
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 1: similarly aged kids. When you go to the police and

426
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 1: they see this activity and your child han't yet been kidnapped,

427
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:35,919
Speaker 1: they're nine times out of ten going to say, sorry,

428
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,199
Speaker 1: there's nothing we can do. That's not good enough. It

429
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 1: is a resources issue, not a law issue. We don't

430
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 1: need new laws. We need to prioritize this behavior, even

431
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,880
Speaker 1: though it hasn't yet led to a child being kidnapped.

432
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 1: We need to prioritize law enforcement's interest in the grooming

433
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 1: process so that these monsters get the message I better

434
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 1: not do this or I'm going to jail. And speaking

435
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 1: of what she found, Wendy Murphy, you're absolutely right about

436
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 1: what she found. And one photo the suspect posted at

437
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 1: texts about having his quote LAMB perform oral sex on

438
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 1: him and sent a photo of his erect penis. Now

439
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,679
Speaker 1: do I like talking about this? No? I don't like

440
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 1: talking about this. Is this the truth? Yes, it's the truth.

441
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 1: Do I want you to know? Yes? I want you

442
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 1: to know because as shocking and as revolting as it

443
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 1: may be, this is the only way we can fight

444
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:38,399
Speaker 1: back against pedophiles. I want you to hear our cut

445
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 1: B from our friends at crime online dot Com. The

446
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,680
Speaker 1: investigation revealed Evan McConney and his online friend had been

447
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:51,199
Speaker 1: exchanging sexual and inappropriate messages for about three weeks. The

448
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 1: connection was made through the game roeblocks, and the two

449
00:27:54,720 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 1: reportedly communicated through oculus of virtual reality device. Now. Remember's mom,

450
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 1: Heather mccanney, had taken steps to end the contact, but

451
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 1: the two reportedly found new ways to talk. Mcconnee also

452
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 1: joined a Discord chat at his new friend's invitation. It

453
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,919
Speaker 1: was through those chats that the two allegedly arranged to

454
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,440
Speaker 1: have mcconnie picked up from his home. Evan even took

455
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 1: his passport with him after his new friend encouraged him too.

456
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 1: Dear Lord in Heaven, the child took his passport. What

457
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 1: say go oversees what they leave this country? It's like

458
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 1: finding a needle in a haystack. Tatonia and Jordan is

459
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 1: joining me, Chief Parenting officer at Bart Technologies explain what

460
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 1: is Discord. Discord is a very popular community and social

461
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 1: media platform now that so many kids are on, so

462
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 1: many predators are on, and so many parents have no

463
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: idea what it is. It's essentially built around gaming and

464
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 1: conversation dround gaming, but you can chat in it, you

465
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 1: can video chat, you can leave messages. It's not a

466
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 1: safe places for kids. Time stories with Nancy Grace. Wendy

467
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 1: Murphy was bringing up something earlier and I want to

468
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 1: throw this to Derek Ellington and doctor Bethany first to you. Derek.

469
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 1: You can find Derek who is a PI and a

470
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 1: forensics examiner at Ellington Digital Forensics. Derek, um, it is

471
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 1: believe this guy later wrote, I'm the MAP, I'm the map,

472
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 1: I'm the map MAP. We all know that that refers

473
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 1: to it's an acronym for a minor attracted person, which

474
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: means a child rapist. That's what that is. It's child molester.

475
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: So what are you making of what you're hearing? Derek Ellington, Well,

476
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: what I want to stress, Nancy, we're talking today about

477
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 1: you know, I would say an extreme case. We're focusing

478
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 1: on the furry and everything like that. Well, any child rape,

479
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 1: which happens all the time, is happening right now. I

480
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 1: don't care if you're wearing a dog costume at the

481
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 1: time you do it. I mean, it's nothing to me.

482
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: What parents need to understand is the technology is a

483
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: way that the predators can find their children, but it's

484
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 1: also a way where predators can communicate securely with their children.

485
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 1: And what parents need to understand is while we're talking

486
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 1: about this case and this person right now, this could

487
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: easily be and in my line of work, a little league,

488
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 1: youth coach, a youth pastor from a church, a next

489
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 1: door neighbor, you know, a family member. So what we

490
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 1: also have to focus on is sometimes they find our

491
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: children in other ways, and the platforms are how they

492
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: communicate discreetly. So let's not just think that we have

493
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 1: to worry about the furry. We have to worry about

494
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 1: anyone who dinner working with our children, do Bethany Champion? Yeah, well,

495
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: I think it's important for parents to understand there's predictable

496
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 1: stages of grooming, whether your child is predated upon by

497
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 1: the high school coach, the little league coach, or online,

498
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 1: and that is they make your child feel special. They

499
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 1: offer gifts and treats like these online coins or whatever.

500
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 1: Then they begin to tell the child, you know, your

501
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 1: parents don't understand you. I understand you so much better.

502
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 1: You're so smart or so strong. Why don't your parents

503
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 1: see how great you are? The child starts to fall

504
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: for it and begins to drift further and further away

505
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 1: from the parents, which follows a very important developmental line

506
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 1: is by the time the child is ten, eleven, twelve,

507
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 1: they're beginning to separate from their parents and become more autonomous,

508
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 1: so this becomes a deviant form of a normal developmental trend.

509
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: Then by the child time, the child is so far

510
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 1: in the pedophile has drawn them into a paranoid world

511
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 1: where the child believes that nobody else can understand them,

512
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 1: give them a better life off of them, gifts make

513
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 1: them feel important. But that particular pedophile once they act out,

514
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: once they have sex, once they're enticed, then they feel

515
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 1: guilty and it becomes even more difficult for them to

516
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 1: tell the parent Nancy. From both the pedophile and the

517
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: child's vantage point, these relationships are strong. They're strong, they

518
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: get stronger every day. I once treated a patient who

519
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,239
Speaker 1: is predated upon by a priest many years ago, and

520
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 1: that the priests would come over for Sunday lunch and

521
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: would come by in the evening and would bring my

522
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 1: patient into another room and you know, sexually accost him.

523
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 1: And it happened hundreds and thousands of times from the

524
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 1: time my patient was seven or eight till he was

525
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: twenty four years old. The priest was so obsessed with

526
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,959
Speaker 1: him that he finally, finally was able to emancipate himself

527
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: from the priest and get a restraining order. But this

528
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 1: is not just some stranger raping you in the park.

529
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 1: This is a man in this case who became obsessed

530
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: with this child. And now we'll do everything possible to

531
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 1: gain access to the child, even while he even in jail,

532
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 1: and if he ever gets out of jail, doors will

533
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 1: be obsessed, Doctor Bethany, I hear what you and Ellington

534
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 1: are saying. I hear it. I hear it, I hear it.

535
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 1: But I got a question. Yeah, I don't understand a

536
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 1: furry What do they What is the enticement, what is

537
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 1: the appeal opportunding to be an animal? What is that

538
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: somehow freeing to them that they don't have to conform

539
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 1: to the society norms? Why do they want to be

540
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 1: a dog? Well maybe, well just go ahead. You're dealing

541
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: with a lot of people who typically have social issues,

542
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 1: maybe they're on the spectrum, Maybe they have problems communicating

543
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 1: in person. The furry persona gives them a bit of anonymity,

544
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 1: you know, it's almost like their own cloak of protection

545
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 1: to be an anonymous person and allow them then to

546
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: communicate with other people's That's where the attraction I think

547
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,240
Speaker 1: comes from. Can you add anything to that, doctor, Bethley,

548
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 1: I will definitely add, as with any fetish or perversion,

549
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 1: it is on a spectrum, on a scale. As Derek

550
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 1: said earlier, so beautifully. So think about a convection. At

551
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,399
Speaker 1: convention of furies, they're all gathering together. At the most

552
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,360
Speaker 1: perverse end. You're going to have somebody for whom bodily hair,

553
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 1: pubic hair is the most enticing sexual aspect of another person,

554
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 1: so they make that fancy and call it a fury.

555
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 1: Then you're going to have you know, adolescents, teenagers, young

556
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 1: adults dressing up in one'siees that have fur all over

557
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,760
Speaker 1: them and they just think being a furry is silly.

558
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 1: So that's at the other into the spectrum. Oh my goodness,

559
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 1: my daughter said somebody at school was a furry, and

560
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 1: of course I thought that meant a sex. David, I'm like,

561
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 1: why did you say that, so and so's a furry

562
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,280
Speaker 1: and she said, oh, she likes to dress up in whatever,

563
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 1: the zebra pajamas or whatever. And I didn't say anything,

564
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,400
Speaker 1: but I thought that that's not my understanding of what

565
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: a furry is. So could you please cut the chase

566
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 1: and tell me the attraction of being a fury just

567
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 1: in one sentence, Bethanie one sentence. As with any perversion,

568
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 1: the attraction is to an aspect of the person rather

569
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 1: than to whom the other person is. Okay, and I

570
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 1: guess that would be fur Okay, you're over a sentence, guys,

571
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:45,439
Speaker 1: I want you to hear this. To this this communication

572
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:49,720
Speaker 1: sent by hunter Flopy Fox to a just turned thirteen

573
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 1: year old boy. All supplied up now and that's for

574
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 1: their trip. Hella hornied up to see my man. Oops,

575
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,800
Speaker 1: I guess I'm a fox after all. No, I'm in love,

576
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:04,359
Speaker 1: Oh marsh, beside you with pride, my lamb, I love

577
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,800
Speaker 1: you with all my heart and saw so you loving

578
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: sexy frigger. You'll be in my arms soon. Okay. With

579
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 1: the parents thinking they had done everything right and finding

580
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 1: out their son still communicated with this guy on Oculus,

581
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 1: which is a virtual reality headset. Take a list of

582
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:28,279
Speaker 1: our cut thirteen our friend Kristin McPeak. The suspect is

583
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 1: twenty six year old Aaron Zeeman from Arizona. He also

584
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 1: goes by the name Tadashi Kojima. Please say. He drove

585
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 1: from Arizona to Utah and waited a few days for

586
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: the thirteen year old to come back home from vacation

587
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:47,720
Speaker 1: with his family, and then the two left together. It

588
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 1: looks from the communication that they had like they had

589
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 1: prearranged this, and the boy left willingly. I think the

590
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 1: parents did everything they could in this instance. This was

591
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 1: just a persistent suspect and perpetrator that ended up taking

592
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 1: this boy. Do you hear the persistence the cop is

593
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 1: talking about this furry child molester drives from Arizona to

594
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 1: Utah to get the boy, all right, This is after

595
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 1: the parents have taken away the boy's devices. He drives

596
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,800
Speaker 1: that far. Then he finds out the family's got on vacation,

597
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:25,720
Speaker 1: and I see a communication. Where has my little Lamb gone?

598
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: Little Lamb is on a family vacation and away from

599
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 1: his oculus. He waits, He waits in the neighborhood until

600
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 1: the family gets back, and then he spies on the

601
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 1: little boy. What we know is that a close family friend,

602
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 1: Beth Cooper, says she learns more about the Amber alert

603
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 1: system than she ever wanted to know. How did they

604
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 1: know the car because a neighbor's home surveillance video caught

605
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:03,240
Speaker 1: the car and immediately turned it in. As soon as

606
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:08,360
Speaker 1: that image of the kidnappers car was revealed and Amber

607
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 1: alert went out immediately. Wendy Murphy describe what is an

608
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 1: amber alert? While an amber alert think God for the

609
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 1: development of this technology is an incredibly helpful tool that

610
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 1: goes out instantly, issued by law enforce, yes to literally

611
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 1: the whole world as soon as a child goes missing,

612
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 1: exactly and they in some jurisdictions you need a car

613
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 1: to go with it, and some you don't. Thank goodness,

614
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 1: as Wendy just said, it went out immediately when the

615
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,319
Speaker 1: neighbor spotted a car in the neighborhood in front of

616
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 1: the little boy's house. If that hadn't happened, then this

617
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 1: would never happen. Take a listen to Cole miller ks

618
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 1: in b R Cut fourteen. What started as a call

619
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 1: to police about a suspicious person at a Grand Island

620
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,399
Speaker 1: gas station ended with a twenty six year old man

621
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 1: in jail and he remains tonight, accused of kidnapping a

622
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 1: thirteen year old from Utah. That boy is now safe,

623
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 1: his parents breathing a huge sigh of relief. We have

624
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 1: learned that the boy had been chatting with twenty six

625
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 1: year old to Dashi Kojimi, who is from Arizona through

626
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 1: an online video game. The conversations then moved to techs

627
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,919
Speaker 1: and FaceTime call. Then the ambreller was issued. The boy

628
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,919
Speaker 1: who was missing was spotted at a gas station when

629
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 1: the gas station attendant thought that the adult and the

630
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:34,880
Speaker 1: little boy were in the car for way too long.

631
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 1: To Nicole Parton joining us Crime online, what aroused the

632
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 1: gas station attendant's interest. So the attendant think God was

633
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,120
Speaker 1: paying attention and noticed the car pull up to the

634
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 1: gas pump, but no one got out. The pump gas

635
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 1: and the car set there, and the car was there

636
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 1: and there and there, and no one got out. Eventually

637
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,360
Speaker 1: the car made a circle and went out the wrong

638
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 1: way of the gas station, going down a one way,

639
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 1: pulled back in and sat in the parking lot again.

640
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 1: And that's when the attendant noticed there was an adult

641
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 1: man and a young child in the car. And that

642
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 1: caused that attendant to say, something seems a miss here.

643
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 1: This car has been sitting, no one pumped of gas.

644
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 1: There's a child with an adult. They're not acting like

645
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 1: a parent and a child. And so that attendant called

646
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,800
Speaker 1: nine one Ycholas our cut seven. This is a Lieutenant

647
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:28,399
Speaker 1: Travis l'man Laton PD. Just after one o'clock this morning,

648
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:33,360
Speaker 1: we got a notification from Grand Island, Nebraska Police Department

649
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 1: out there that they had located both the suspect and

650
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 1: the victim in this case. Alert gas station attendant had

651
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 1: actually thought something looked suspicious about the car, and these

652
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 1: people that were there at the gas station called the

653
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 1: police department, and they responded, looked into it, separated the

654
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:53,439
Speaker 1: two of them, and identified our victim in this case

655
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 1: as being somebody who we had listed as kidnapped and

656
00:40:56,120 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 1: missing and rescued him. So we're sure grateful, as is

657
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,240
Speaker 1: the family. As you can imagine, you may have noticed

658
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 1: at the beginning of our conversation several of us were

659
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:12,719
Speaker 1: actually smiling and laughing because we knew a little boy lived,

660
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 1: and it is so rare and joyous that a child

661
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 1: escapes an ordeal like this alive. Please protect your children.

662
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 1: It's hard to understand in this world how to do that.

663
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,800
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off goodbye friend,