1 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:08,119 Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 2 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb. 3 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:12,399 Speaker 2: And I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. We're heading into 4 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 2: the vault for an older episode of the show. This one, 5 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 2: originally published June fourteenth, twenty twenty two, is part three 6 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 2: of our exploration of the Cauldron. Let's ladele some out here. 7 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 8 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:38,319 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 9 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: is Robert. 10 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 2: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And Hey, we were out 11 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 2: for a little bit, but now we're back, and you 12 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:46,559 Speaker 2: know what, we're back with more cauldrons. Our brains are 13 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 2: like pots, and those pots are full of pots, and 14 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:52,919 Speaker 2: the pots have pots in them, and it never stops. 15 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: I know, my wife is still teasing me about this. 16 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: It's like, you guys are still doing episodes about cauldrons 17 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: and soup, and I'm like, yeah, there's like we're probably 18 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:05,319 Speaker 1: going to do three or four of these total, and 19 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:07,960 Speaker 1: we're still not going to cover everything. And a lot 20 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: of it comes down to the fact, and certainly go 21 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: back and listen to those first two episodes if you 22 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: haven't It comes down to the fact that we're talking 23 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: about ancient technology, and since it we inevitably use technology 24 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:24,559 Speaker 1: as a way of understanding ourselves, understanding the cosmos, et cetera. 25 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: It ends up becoming a part of our not only 26 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: are a discourse, but of course our religions and so forth. 27 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: And we see that with the cauldron for sure. 28 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:37,479 Speaker 2: Yes, though I have to say one of the big 29 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 2: examples we're going to talk about in this episode. I 30 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 2: don't know if the whole episode will end up focusing 31 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 2: on it, but it's a really interesting historical artifact that 32 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 2: is called a cauldron. Like it is called the Gunduestrup cauldron. 33 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 2: But I was reading a paper on it, and the 34 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 2: very first sentence of the paper, this author insists that 35 00:01:56,160 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 2: it is not a cauldron, it is a ceremonial container. 36 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean this is something that is kind of 37 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 1: under the surface of many of these discussions, right Like 38 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 1: obviously not all of these people would have called this 39 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: a cauldron, and then you get into discussions of Okay, 40 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: is it a cauldron or a pot, Is it a 41 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 1: cauldron or a bowl? Is it a cauldron or some 42 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: other kind you know, what exactly. 43 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 2: Is the sh will Daddy. Oh, Okay, this is a cauldron. 44 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 2: Come on, it's a big metal pot. I think we 45 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:28,119 Speaker 2: can call it a cauldron. 46 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. So yeah. As we've discussed in previous episodes, we 47 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:35,399 Speaker 1: wanted to get into European traditions with a cauldron, and 48 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:40,920 Speaker 1: cauldrons in Europe are sometimes uncovered in bogs places, as 49 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: we've discussed in the show before, that had sacred connotations 50 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 1: to the ancient people who visited them. They were a 51 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,799 Speaker 1: place between land and water, and so they were also 52 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 1: seen as a place between life and death. So various 53 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: funeral rites seem to have been conducted its various bogs 54 00:02:56,080 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: and peat bogs, and given the low oxygen city soil 55 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: of bog environments, we often gain a great deal more 56 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: insight into what occurred there, especially when it comes to 57 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 1: organic materials that would have otherwise decayed. So bodies were 58 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: left in these bogs and teared in these bogs, and 59 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 1: we also see examples of cauldrons and cauldron like artifacts. 60 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: One notable bog retrieved cauldron is the Gundestrap cauldron, an 61 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:30,239 Speaker 1: incomplete but very stunning silver artifact discovered in a bog 62 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: in Himmelund, Denmark in eighteen ninety one. Now, while dating 63 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 1: has been a matter of some discussion here exact dating anyway, 64 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: it's suspected to date back to between one fifty BCE 65 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 1: and the dawn of the Common Era. It was evidently 66 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: given to the bog and an act of sacrifice, perhaps 67 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: to a god or god's, but its origins don't seem 68 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: to be quite Danish. It bears images that are generally 69 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: associated with more Southern cultures, lying d or griffins. There 70 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: seems to be a hornet or antlered god on there, 71 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: alongside other potential gods and goddesses. It contains scenes of 72 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: warriors falling in battle, and there is actually an image 73 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:19,359 Speaker 1: of a magic cauldron that is on this cauldron with 74 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 1: a gigantic figure, perhaps a god or a goddess, about 75 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: to dunk a smaller man into its depths. 76 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 2: That's right, we got cauldrons on our cauldrons and I 77 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 2: want to come back to more interpretation of this panel 78 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 2: later on. 79 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, as we're talking about the Gundestrup cauldron, look 80 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: up images of it. That's spelled g U n d 81 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 1: E S t r u P. There are a lot 82 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: of images online that show the various panels here the 83 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 1: various the various images that we're going to be discussing here, 84 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 1: including this one of what is clearly a giant of 85 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: some sort taking a man and dunking him headfirst into 86 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 1: a bucket or cauldron or vessel of some sort adjacent 87 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,599 Speaker 1: to this battle scene. So the exact origins of the 88 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,280 Speaker 1: cauldron here are still a matter of debate, with some 89 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: pointing to the Thracians or what is in these would 90 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,359 Speaker 1: have been people from what is now Bulgaria and Romania. 91 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 1: Yet there are also Celtic helmets and trumpets depicted on 92 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: the cauldron, suggesting it might have been made in a 93 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 1: place in the aforementioned region where Thracians and Celts coexisted, 94 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: though it's uncertain how this then wound up in Denmark. 95 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: Could have been a tribute, it could have been spoils 96 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 1: of war. Either way, it may be accurate to think 97 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: of the Gundestrap Cauldron as not a product of a 98 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: single culture, a single place, or even a single time, 99 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: but something that was created by mingling cultures on the move, 100 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:50,919 Speaker 1: in part due to Roman expansion and conquest during this 101 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: time period, and ultimately constructed by different artisans over many years. 102 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 2: Oh, I didn't think about the Roman connection. But yeah, 103 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 2: so if this would have been in the first century BCE, 104 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,119 Speaker 2: and the middle of that century was when Julius Caesar 105 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:07,479 Speaker 2: himself was waging a war of conquest in Gaul against 106 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 2: Celtic tribes in that region, so yeah, that's an interesting possibility. 107 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 2: So yeah, Rob, you dug this thing up, not physically, 108 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 2: but yes, you had brought it into our outline. But 109 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 2: I got really obsessed with it, and I found I 110 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 2: find this artifact so interesting, specifically because of the different 111 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,799 Speaker 2: mysteries about it its provenance, like you were just talking about, 112 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 2: but also about what it's depicting, because there are tons 113 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:39,040 Speaker 2: of question you know, it clearly is showing scenes that 114 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 2: are part of a rich mythology that we apparently know 115 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:47,159 Speaker 2: little to nothing about, and so there are a lot 116 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 2: of attempts to try to understand what the different panels 117 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 2: are depicting and if and if so, how they connect 118 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 2: to mythologies that we might know something about. But coming 119 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 2: back to that provenance question, Yeah, I think it's so 120 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 2: interesting that there are at least three different distinct regional inputs. Now, 121 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 2: as you already mentioned, based on physical characteristics of the cauldron, 122 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 2: like the silversmithing techniques that were used to create it, 123 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 2: it seems to be a product of Southeastern Europe. Yes, 124 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 2: but most scholars pointing to the metalworking techniques of the 125 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 2: Thracians who live in as you said, what is today 126 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 2: Bulgaria or Romania. And I was trying to figure out 127 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 2: what are some examples of this distinctive style that's so 128 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 2: strongly linked to Thracian culture. Well, I was reading about 129 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 2: this on the website for the National Museum of Denmark, 130 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 2: which has a lot of great materials about the Gundestrup cauldron, 131 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 2: and they compare the Gundestrup cauldron to the metalworking on 132 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 2: a gilded silver pitcher from Bulgaria from roughly three hundred BCE, 133 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 2: and looking at it, I would agree, Yeah, the techniques 134 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 2: and the artistic style look extremely similar, like the way 135 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 2: the animal figures are in embossed. Remember that this is 136 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 2: not just like an illustration or a carving, but this 137 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 2: is like hammered and punched metal. So it has raised 138 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 2: animal figures with like textures that you could feel with 139 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 2: your fingers running over them. And those textures are very 140 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 2: similar between the two works. So like the animal figures 141 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 2: are embossed and punched with patterns of texture that seem 142 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 2: to indicate hair or fur, and it's extremely distinctive. You 143 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 2: see some of the same patterns on the apparent herringbone 144 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 2: patterns on the clothing of the people on the Gunda 145 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 2: strip cauldron. So based on the techniques, it's pretty clear 146 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 2: that it was created by an artisan who had been 147 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 2: trained in the traditions of Southeastern Europe. But as you 148 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 2: also said, the imagery depicts objects and motifs associated with 149 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 2: the culture of the Celts who were in more kind 150 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 2: of western central Europe at the time, and a few 151 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 2: examples of this would be a Celtic musical instrument known 152 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 2: as the carnix, which we can discuss in more detail later, 153 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 2: certain types of Celtic ceremonial jewelry such as an object 154 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 2: called a torque, which I can also get to in 155 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:14,679 Speaker 2: a minute, and things like that. So those are your 156 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 2: two inputs. It's like Celtic subject matter done in the 157 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 2: metal working style of the Thracians or of Southeastern Europe, 158 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 2: and then it's found in the territory of neither one. 159 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 2: It's found up in Jutland in modern day Denmark in 160 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 2: a bog. So yeah, you really have to wonder how 161 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 2: all this comes together. Did a Celtic person commission a 162 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 2: Southeastern European silversmith to make a pot containing images from 163 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 2: their culture and mythology? Or maybe did it somehow arise 164 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,439 Speaker 2: from a border region where these cultures came into contact, 165 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,199 Speaker 2: and then somehow this item ends up in the bogs 166 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 2: of Jutland. 167 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: It would be like finding what a Bulgarian band that 168 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: only does covers of Celtic music in modern Denmark and 169 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 1: wondering how they came to be there. 170 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 2: Ah, yes, the thrash metal polka bands of Canada. Now 171 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 2: I wanted to mention just a little bit more about 172 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 2: the state that this cauldron, the so called cauldron was 173 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 2: in when it was discovered. So altogether this object weighs 174 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 2: about nine kilograms or about twenty pounds, and it appears 175 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:25,079 Speaker 2: to have been deposited in the bog deliberately, especially because 176 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 2: it was disassembled when it was put into the bog. 177 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 2: So this cauldron has many detachable features, so the rim 178 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 2: can be taken off, and the silver image panels which 179 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 2: line the sides of the pot, those can be taken off, 180 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 2: and when it was found they were all removed and 181 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 2: placed inside the vessel, So I don't know, you see that, 182 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 2: and that makes it sound like this wasn't just sort 183 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 2: of like it wasn't like it fell off a wagon 184 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 2: or something. That sounds like somebody put it in there. 185 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 2: There is no text anywhere on it, so it's not 186 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,439 Speaker 2: like a political cartoon where everything's labeled so you know 187 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 2: what it means. It's you just have to infer from 188 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 2: the imagery. So that makes it difficult to identify things. 189 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 2: But the imagery, as you already said, Rob, is fascinating. 190 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,439 Speaker 2: There are animals you would not expect to see. There 191 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 2: are lions, There are images of gods that we know 192 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 2: little or nothing about. In fact, there are even images 193 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 2: of elephants. 194 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: Ah, and yeah that should be surprising, especially like where 195 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: are these images of elephants coming from? 196 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So at this point, I just want to 197 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 2: pick out a few of the individual plates and focus 198 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 2: on what's going on on them, one at a time. 199 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 2: So the first one I wanted to look at, I've 200 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 2: got a picture for you to look at, Rob, but 201 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 2: of course we will describe it for you out there, 202 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 2: the listener. So it shows a god or a mythic 203 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:49,959 Speaker 2: figure that's mostly human in form, except it has antlers 204 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 2: like a stag growing from its head. And this figure 205 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 2: is sitting cross legged right next to an actual stag. 206 00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 2: And then on the other side of it, there are 207 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 2: a bunch of other animals. There are four legged, predatory 208 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 2: looking animals that might be dogs or maybe lions, I 209 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 2: can't tell for sure. And then I love this a 210 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 2: tiny dude riding on the back of a fish. Yes, 211 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 2: is it now compared to the god with the antlers, 212 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 2: the dude is much smaller, But I don't know if 213 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 2: it's a question of perspective. Maybe he's farther away, or 214 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 2: maybe maybe this is just separate imagery, or maybe the 215 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 2: god is supposed to be really big, or maybe the 216 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 2: dude's supposed to be really small. I can't tell what 217 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 2: the deal with the size difference is. But if it 218 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 2: is a regular sized man on the fish's back that 219 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 2: is a very big fish, it's got to be like 220 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 2: dolphin or shark sized. 221 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. And there's also kind of a different flavor to 222 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 1: these two images. So the hornet or antlered God or 223 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: whatever this being is supposed to be is in it 224 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: has a kind of a serene pose. His legs. His 225 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: or her legs are crossed, holding as what a serpent 226 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: in one hand and I'm not sure what the implement 227 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: is in the other hand. 228 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 2: Oh well, that is a Celtic object. Actually, I think 229 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 2: this is an object that is bigger than just Celtic culture, 230 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 2: but it was big in Celtic culture called a torque, 231 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 2: which is a type of metal ring worn around the 232 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:19,559 Speaker 2: neck that seems to have had significance for multiple Iron 233 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:24,439 Speaker 2: Age European cultures, symbolizing power. It's power or status or rank, 234 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,439 Speaker 2: sort of like a crown. So if somebody's wearing a torque, 235 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 2: that would seem to indicate that they are a leader 236 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 2: or a high status person. So this figure with the 237 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 2: antlers has the torque in his right hand, and then 238 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 2: in the other hand he's grasping, like you said, the 239 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 2: neck of a giant snake. But I just wanted to 240 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 2: point out that the snake has features on its head, 241 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 2: which one scholar I was looking at identified as rams horns. 242 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 2: So it's a snake with ram horns. 243 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: Oh wow. So there's clearly a lot going on here, 244 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:59,599 Speaker 1: as one often finds with depictions of powerful individuals or 245 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:03,439 Speaker 1: da or demi gods and it's one of these images 246 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 1: that I think it speaks across the ages. When you 247 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: look at this, you get a sense of power and 248 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:13,959 Speaker 1: divinity from it. Meanwhile, the individual writing the fish or dolphin, 249 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 1: it looks more comical to me, and it makes me 250 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: wonder if there is in fact it is supposed to 251 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: be comical on some level, like even if it is 252 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: a god of some sort, maybe it is a tricks 253 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: to God. Maybe it's something that is not supposed to 254 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: be interpreted with the same air of reverence as we 255 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 1: have with this central individual. 256 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree, fish boy looks very funny, and I 257 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 2: think it's partly in the way his knees are bent 258 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 2: and he's sort of reaching forward while riding the fish, 259 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 2: almost as if you can imagine him kind of rocking 260 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 2: and kicking back and forth and saying like, go faster, 261 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 2: come on. 262 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: Now. Obviously, another possible explanation for differences could also be 263 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 1: different authors over time. But as we alluded to earlier. 264 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 2: But an interesting thing I wanted to point out again. 265 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 2: So there's a lot we don't know about what these 266 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 2: images are supposed to depict. But this antler headed god 267 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 2: who is holding a torque in one hand, is also 268 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 2: wearing a torque around his neck, so he appears to 269 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 2: be a leader or high status figure himself. But maybe 270 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 2: by holding a torque in one hand, I don't know, 271 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 2: just speculating, but maybe it means he can also make 272 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 2: a king. He can also give the crown to another. 273 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 2: But to go on to discuss another panel, Rob, I 274 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 2: wanted to come back to one you sort of mentioned earlier, 275 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 2: the panel that has the cauldron dunking on it, because 276 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,479 Speaker 2: this panel's really interesting and there was some good interpretive 277 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 2: material on the National Museum of Denmark website about it. 278 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 2: So this is one of the interior wall panels. This 279 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 2: would be lining the inner wall of the cauldron, and 280 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 2: there's a lot going on on it, so let's try 281 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 2: to break it down piece by piece. So one thing 282 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 2: is that there is a row of soldiers on the 283 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 2: bottom and they are on foot, they're holding spears and shields, 284 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 2: and they are moving toward the left side of the panel. 285 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 2: And then above them is a straight horizontal tree branch 286 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 2: with little leaves forking off of it. And then above 287 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 2: the tree branch are soldiers on horseback moving in the 288 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 2: opposite direction of the procession. Below they are moving to 289 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 2: the right side of the panel, and then on the 290 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 2: lower right side of the panel, there are three warriors 291 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 2: playing instruments that are known as carnisses. When I first 292 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 2: looked at these things, I had no idea what they were, 293 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 2: but I looked them up, and these are a well 294 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 2: known type of artifact. Rob I've got a close up 295 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 2: for you to look at here. But the carnix was 296 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 2: a wind instrument used by the Celts of the Iron Age. 297 00:16:55,000 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 2: It is essentially a giant s shaped trumpet, but most 298 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,400 Speaker 2: of the length of this trumpet is a vertical pipe 299 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 2: reaching far up above your head. So picture a kind 300 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 2: of long periscope tube, except it's not going to your eye, 301 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 2: it's connecting to your mouth, and you blow through it, 302 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 2: and then the sound comes out of this tube that 303 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 2: ends maybe a whole other person's height above your head. 304 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 2: And so the bell part of this instrument, the part 305 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 2: where the sound comes out, would often be shaped to 306 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 2: look like an open jawed head of an animal such 307 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 2: as a dragon or a serpent, or maybe sometimes a bore. 308 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 2: The carnax was identified in ancient literary sources as associated 309 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 2: with warfare, so you might play it on the battlefield 310 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 2: for a coordination of tactics or for intimidation of the enemy. 311 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: Ah, long distance communication. 312 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 2: There you go. But what's going on with the warriors 313 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,200 Speaker 2: on the bottom row of the panel, Well, they seem 314 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 2: to be moving toward the left side, where one by 315 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 2: one they will face a god of some kind depicted 316 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 2: as a giant who is you know, at least twice 317 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 2: as big as probably three times as big as the warriors, 318 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,360 Speaker 2: and the god or the giant will grasp a warrior 319 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 2: with both hands, turn him upside down, and then dunk 320 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:17,159 Speaker 2: him headfirst into a cauldron. Now, I think there's plenty 321 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 2: of room to question the interpretation of these panels. Again, 322 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 2: they don't come with words on them, so they don't explain, 323 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:29,119 Speaker 2: and they don't super clearly connect to mythology that we 324 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 2: know about. Connections that would be established have to be 325 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 2: kind of inferred. They might be kind of tenuous. But 326 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 2: the curators of the National Museum of Denmark argue that 327 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,439 Speaker 2: the warriors on foot in the bottom of this panel, 328 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 2: they are being represented as probably in the underworld, meaning 329 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,199 Speaker 2: that they were just killed in battle, and so they 330 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 2: are being depicted as I don't know, the dead forms 331 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 2: of their former selves and you can tell they're in 332 00:18:56,040 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 2: the underworld because they are underneath this horizontal tree bring branch. Apparently, 333 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 2: the tree branch probably denotes the Earth itself and the 334 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 2: division between worlds. So if the tree branch is the earth, 335 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 2: what's below it is the underworld, and what's above it 336 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 2: is some kind of heavenly afterlife. And from here the 337 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 2: interpretation goes on to say that as these figures are 338 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 2: dunked into the cauldron by the God, their fate is decided, 339 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 2: and this fate might include being resurrected or reincarnated in 340 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:31,239 Speaker 2: some exalted state, such as in this heavenly realm up 341 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 2: above on the top of the panel, and perhaps as 342 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 2: a person of higher status or rank. Remember that the 343 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 2: soldiers shown above the branch were on horseback, so maybe 344 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 2: this means a fallen warrior could be resurrected as an 345 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 2: officer or as a member of the equestrian classes higher 346 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 2: socioeconomic class. And I thought it was really interesting how 347 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:55,159 Speaker 2: this recalls the imagery of cauldrons used in visions of 348 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 2: hell in multiple very different Asian cultures that we talked 349 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,919 Speaker 2: about in the previous part of this where the cauldrons 350 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 2: were not only an instrument of torture in the realms 351 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 2: of hell, but they were secondarily a symbol of transformation 352 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 2: into something more honorable and refined, if you could be 353 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 2: reincarnated as a sort of better being after the stint 354 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 2: in hell. And it makes me think again, Like, seeing 355 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:23,439 Speaker 2: this motif arise in multiple different cultures, separated greatly in 356 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,880 Speaker 2: time and geography and language and all these different barriers, 357 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 2: makes one wonder if there's not a common, universal human 358 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 2: experience underlying that theme, which would seem to me to 359 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 2: be very likely the transformation of raw food into cooked food, 360 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 2: or of dirty clothing into clean clothing, as would be 361 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 2: just you know, natural things where we see transformed by 362 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:46,400 Speaker 2: the work of the cauldron. 363 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, like the basic nature of cauldron technology and the 364 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 1: idea that it enables transformation, It does seem to be 365 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 1: something you just see in culture after culture after culture, 366 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:01,200 Speaker 1: just across vast distances on the planet. And the laundry 367 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 1: note God is important too. I've seen that pop up 368 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:07,919 Speaker 1: in a few different sources, pointing to specific cauldrons of note, 369 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:13,880 Speaker 1: and often discussions regarding that cauldron come back to cooking 370 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 1: and the preparation of food, the transformation of organic matter 371 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 1: into some sort of delicious or hearty dish. But also 372 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:26,120 Speaker 1: sometimes laundry is discussed as a possibility as well, And 373 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 1: I mean that is a transformation. I think we tend 374 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,360 Speaker 1: to totally take for granted that you can have foul 375 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:36,640 Speaker 1: and soiled clothing, and yet here is this fabulous specialized 376 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 1: cauldron in your house or at the local laundry mat, 377 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: or in the basement of your building that you put 378 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 1: these items into, and you come back later and behold, 379 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 1: they have been refreshed. They are new again. 380 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. Man, who doesn't love clean laundry, especially clean sheets. 381 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 2: It's a wonderful thing. Oh yeah, Okay, I got another 382 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,479 Speaker 2: panel I want to focus on. This one's very special 383 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:58,679 Speaker 2: and it may be the most important of all of 384 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 2: them due to its place within the cauldron, and that 385 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 2: is the panel that is in the bottom of the 386 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:05,919 Speaker 2: cauldron bowl. 387 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 1: Now. 388 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 2: I might not have even noticed this one just by 389 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 2: looking at pictures of the plates on the Internet, because 390 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,439 Speaker 2: a lot of the photography that's out there focuses on 391 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,680 Speaker 2: the side plates for good reason. But I actually saw 392 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 2: this one brought up in a curator's video feature from 393 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 2: the British Museum that was focused on the Gundestrup cauldron. 394 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,479 Speaker 2: I think maybe when they had it on loan or something. 395 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 2: But it was by an archaeologist named Julia Farley, and 396 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 2: this was really interesting. So this panel is at the 397 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 2: bottom of the pot, so if you're looking down into 398 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 2: the pot, it's what you'd see at the very bottom, 399 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 2: assuming the pot's empty. And because of that feature, I 400 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 2: started to think about how if the pot had something 401 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 2: in it, like soup or whatever. I don't know if 402 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 2: this was ever used to serve soup, probably not, actually 403 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 2: more of a ceremonial vessel, but I don't know. I 404 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 2: guess I couldn't rule that out. If it had anything 405 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 2: in it, this panel would be hidden and then it 406 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 2: would be revealed as the contents were taken out of 407 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 2: the bowl. So what do you see in this panel, Well, 408 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 2: it depicts a gigantic bull reclining. When I first saw it, 409 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 2: it looked to me like it was kind of, I 410 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,679 Speaker 2: don't know, lazily resting. But I've seen it written about 411 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,400 Speaker 2: as if this bull is laying on the ground because 412 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 2: it has been wounded, but I couldn't tell that just 413 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:24,679 Speaker 2: by looking at it. So for whatever reason, it's a 414 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 2: bull laying on its side, but then with its head 415 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 2: propped up, and the head of the bull is actually 416 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,919 Speaker 2: a very prominently vertically raised three D feature. Technically, the 417 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 2: whole thing, like the other panels, is three D. It's 418 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 2: all hammered and stamped and embossed into three D textures, 419 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 2: but the head of the bull is sort of more 420 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 2: three D than the rest, like it really rises into 421 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,439 Speaker 2: prominence off the base. And then behind the back of 422 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 2: the bull, we see a goddess or a female warrior 423 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 2: posed with sword raised and her legs are bent. They're 424 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 2: kind of tucked up under her as if she were jumping, 425 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 2: like as if she were in midair at the peak 426 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,120 Speaker 2: of a great leap, and she's going to come down 427 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 2: with the sword and strike and slay this giant bull. 428 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 2: So it's an action shot. There are also three dogs 429 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 2: in the image. It seems two of them seem to 430 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 2: be alive and helping this warrior or goddess slay the bull, 431 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 2: and the other dog appears to be dead. But something 432 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 2: I noticed also about this bull. So it's got this 433 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,199 Speaker 2: raised head coming up off of the body, turning at 434 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 2: an angle, and then the bull has what looked like 435 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:38,640 Speaker 2: two holes behind its eyes exactly where the horns would 436 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,439 Speaker 2: emerge from. And I wondered, does this mean that the 437 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 2: bull at some point had some kind of horns I 438 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,439 Speaker 2: don't know, maybe made of a different material coming out 439 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,359 Speaker 2: of these holes that may be known. And if so, 440 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 2: I just didn't find anything about it, so I don't know. 441 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 2: But if so, I wonder what those horns were. And 442 00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 2: again I don't know if this is significant, but if 443 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:04,199 Speaker 2: you had anything opaque in the pot, as the pot 444 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 2: was emptied, you would first see the bull's raised head 445 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,400 Speaker 2: coming up out of that opaque material. But then as 446 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 2: more and more was taken out of the pot, as 447 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 2: the bottom was revealed, it would reveal the goddess or 448 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,640 Speaker 2: the female warrior, this person with the sword and her 449 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 2: three hounds surrounding the bull, ready to strike. And I 450 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,439 Speaker 2: thought that was a kind of interesting. It's almost like 451 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,640 Speaker 2: by taking the contents out of this bowl, it would 452 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 2: be pulling back the curtain on the dramatic aspect of 453 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:30,400 Speaker 2: the scene. 454 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, that's a lot to unpack because on one hand, 455 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,640 Speaker 1: there's just sort of the I guess, the basic pleasure 456 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: to be had, and this potential scene of the level 457 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 1: of soup lowering and revealing horns and then head and 458 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: then beast, not unlike some of the novelty mugs you'll 459 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:50,440 Speaker 1: find today, where there's some sort of a like I 460 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 1: don't know, like a cartoon octopus on the bottom of 461 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 1: the mug. You drink half of your hot cocoa and oop, 462 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 1: there's an octopus peering up at you. And I mean 463 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 1: that alone is fun. That alone transcends time and space. 464 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 1: But yeah, on top of it, to have this dramatic 465 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: action scene playing out and then the question arise as well, 466 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:14,120 Speaker 1: then is this a story that I mean? What did 467 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: it take place beneath a liquid? Did it take place 468 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,640 Speaker 1: within a cauldron? You know? What is the exact connection? 469 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: How does having it at the bottom of the cauldron? 470 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 1: What does that illustrate? What does that do? What is 471 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 1: the function of that? 472 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 2: Yeah? I love this, though I want to be clear, 473 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 2: I am not arguing that this was used to serve soup. 474 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 2: I don't know of any evidence of that, So I 475 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 2: guess we don't know what went into this bowl. If anything, 476 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 2: we don't know exactly how it was used. But another 477 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:47,360 Speaker 2: question is what does the killing of this bowl symbolize? 478 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 2: So clearly this goddess is ready to bring the sword 479 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 2: down on its neck, but we don't know what that 480 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 2: act meant. And this is another one of the mysteries 481 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 2: of the cauldron. The National of Denmark page it has 482 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:07,199 Speaker 2: an interpretation that the bull may symbolize chaos, and the 483 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 2: woman who is fighting and killing the bull is doing 484 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 2: so in order to protect the cosmic order, though I'm 485 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 2: not sure exactly what supports that speculation, but I don't know. Yeah, Personally, 486 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 2: I'm just intoxicated by the mysteries of like, what are 487 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:25,120 Speaker 2: the stories that are being told in these little metal 488 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 2: comic strip panels with no words on them, Like we 489 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 2: don't know what the surrounding context is, and and I 490 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 2: really wish we could. 491 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because I mean the context would have been 492 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:40,879 Speaker 1: clear to someone at least a privileged few within the 493 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 1: given culture, if not everyone within the given culture. So yeah, 494 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 1: it's it's fascinating, fascinating mystery. 495 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 2: Now. I was looking up to see if there were 496 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 2: any good papers that were using clues in the images 497 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 2: to try to understand better what stories were being told 498 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 2: or what the significance of these gods and mythic figures were. 499 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,440 Speaker 2: One paper I found that caught my attention was by 500 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 2: a scholar named David Alexander Nance called Plate F on 501 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 2: the Gundestrup Cauldron Symbols of Spring and Fertility, published in 502 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 2: a journal called Anthropozoologica in twenty nineteen. Anthropozoologica is a 503 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,120 Speaker 2: journal put out by the French Museum of Natural History 504 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 2: that seems to be focusing on the role of non 505 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 2: human animals in the history of humankind. And I looked 506 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 2: up Nance. He is a scholar at the University of Aberdeen. 507 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 2: Now specifically, this paper adds it tries to do a 508 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 2: zoological identification of a bird species on one of the 509 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 2: plates in order to help elucidate what the mythic significance 510 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 2: may have been. So Nance notes that on this plate 511 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 2: called Plate F, which broadly I mean so, first of all, 512 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 2: it shows this huge face of like a giant figure 513 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 2: with long hair, and then other depictions of what may 514 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 2: be the same figure in like smaller scenes around the 515 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 2: big head. And then the big figure with the long 516 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,959 Speaker 2: hair is holding a bird in its hand. And then 517 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 2: there are also birds and I think cats and dogs 518 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 2: flanking it in different places. But Nance is specifically looking 519 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 2: at the birds and says, hey, wait a second, the 520 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 2: birds on this plate have a very distinctive morphological feature, 521 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 2: which is zygodactyly. Zygodactyly is a foot morphology where there 522 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 2: are two claws facing forward and two facing backward. And 523 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 2: given that characteristic, there are really only a few types 524 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 2: of birds that could be it's obviously not most of them. 525 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 2: So the only real candidate for this is the common 526 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 2: cuckoo or Cuculus canoris. And this is interesting because the 527 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 2: cuckoo connects to a whole other known nexus of mythological significance, 528 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 2: so Nance writes quote. This species is also identified on 529 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 2: a number of other widespread European artifacts where it was 530 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 2: previously thought to be a bird of prey. The plate 531 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 2: depicts a goddess in triplicate flanked by two cuckoos releasing 532 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 2: the first cuckoo of spring. The bird is an obligate 533 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 2: brood parasite, laying its eggs in other birds' nests, leading 534 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 2: to misconceptions of its life cycle, and the misconceptions about 535 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 2: cuckoos in antiquity were that there were no female cuckoos, 536 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 2: that there were only males, and the male birds mated 537 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 2: with the host females of all the other bird species. 538 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 2: Now that's not true, but Apparently, Nance argues that that 539 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 2: was believed in the ancient world, and for this reason, 540 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 2: the cuckoo's symbolized male fertility across many different cultures in 541 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 2: its summer range. So during the summer months all across Eurasia, 542 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 2: this bird would fly in and then it would be 543 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 2: associated with fertility, and sometimes with European fertility goddesses like 544 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 2: the bird might sort of be its implied consort. 545 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: Oh that's fascinating. I mean that reminds me of various 546 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: misinterpretations regarding spontaneous generation, or the idea that the scare 547 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: of beetle, you know, the dung beetle emerges from the dung. 548 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 1: That it is that it is a thing that is 549 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: borne out of the dirt and of the waste, as 550 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: opposed to enough of life form that's making use of 551 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 1: this material. 552 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's interesting. So, but to be biologically precise, 553 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 2: what is happening with the cuckoos is that they are 554 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 2: depositing their own So cuckoos are mating with cuckoos, and 555 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 2: then they're laying cuckoo eggs. They're just laying in the 556 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 2: nests of other birds, and so that's known as brood parasitism. 557 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 2: But because of the confusion of like not seeing them 558 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 2: with their own nests, they were just like, yeah, they're 559 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 2: only male cuckoos, and they're just they essentially said that 560 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,720 Speaker 2: they were cooked colding the male birds of other species. 561 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, brute parasitism is a fascinating topic, and of course 562 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 1: we see this in the insect world as well. Yeah, 563 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: it's not certainly but not confined to just these birds. 564 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: Fascinating topic we could easily come back to because they're 565 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 1: also even with the cuckoo there, as I recall, there 566 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: are a lot of ins and outs regarding the enforcement 567 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 1: of this policy. Yes, both with actions that are sometimes 568 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 1: compared to almost mafia tactics, and also just like how 569 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: does the egg appear and how is there like a 570 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,479 Speaker 1: physical deception or mimicry going on? 571 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's widely believed to be like just 572 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 2: an ongoing evolutionary arms race between the host species ability 573 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 2: to recognize cuckoo eggs and be like wait a minute, no, 574 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 2: and then the cuckoo's ability to adapt to that and 575 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 2: further blend in oh but sorry. The other thing about 576 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 2: the cuckoo that would make it probably associated with fertility 577 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 2: would be its seasonal migratory patterns, because this is one 578 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 2: of the migratory birds that would show up in northern 579 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 2: stretches of Europe and Asia in the summer months, and 580 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 2: so it might show up in spring you would say like, oh, 581 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 2: there's the there's the first cuckoo of the of the 582 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 2: warm season. And so it would thus be associated also 583 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 2: with the regeneration of plants and things like that, having 584 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 2: fertility associations for that reason. Anyway, I guess we'll call 585 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 2: it there for the Gundestrup Cauldron. But I find this 586 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 2: such an intriguing artifact. I don't know. I like every 587 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 2: time there's a new paper providing some interpretation of what's 588 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 2: going on in these panels. I want to know. 589 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And by all means, when you get a chance, 590 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: you're not driving a vehicle or something, look up images 591 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 1: of the Gundestrup cauldron. And certainly, if you have access 592 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 1: to the Gundestrup Cauldron, if you can go see it 593 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: at a museum now or in the future, please do so. 594 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 2: If you can steal it, you know, tuck it into 595 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 2: the breeches and get it out of there, and not. 596 00:33:54,760 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: Steal the Gundestripe cauldron now cauldrons are are also found 597 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 1: in rivers, which is interesting. Rivers also have of course 598 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 1: have divine importance in many cultures, and one example is 599 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 1: the Battersea cauldron that was found in the River Thames 600 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 1: at Battersea in South London. It's a large riveted bronze 601 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 1: vessel with signs of maintenance over many years. Originally crafted 602 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 1: an estimated three thousand years ago, so this would have 603 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:30,759 Speaker 1: been a highly advanced example of metalwork from this time period. Now. 604 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,800 Speaker 1: This cauldron is mentioned in a blog entry on the 605 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:38,240 Speaker 1: British Museum website by Jennifer Wexler and Neil Wilkin titled 606 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,280 Speaker 1: Cauldrons and flesh Hooks between the Living and the Dead 607 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 1: in Ancient Britain and Ireland and Yeah. They also point 608 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,440 Speaker 1: out an example of a three thousand year old flesh 609 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 1: hook found in a bog in Northern Ireland, and when complete, 610 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,960 Speaker 1: when one piece, it would have been a long metal 611 00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 1: and wood rod decorated with bronze birds. The hook would 612 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,279 Speaker 1: have been used in ritual feasting for the purpose of 613 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 1: pulling cooked meat from a cauldron, and such tools were 614 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:11,360 Speaker 1: also used when working with hides and tanning pits and 615 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 1: so forth. But this particular artifact also had birds on it, 616 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 1: which is pretty interesting. I'm going to read just a 617 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:22,959 Speaker 1: quote from that British Museum blog post quote. The two 618 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 1: sets of birds may have represented opposing forces in the 619 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: world of ancient people. Swans are white birds of the water, 620 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 1: but also associated with the sun and light, and the 621 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 1: family group suggests fertility because they're depicted in a family 622 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 1: group here. The ravens, on the other hand, are blackbirds 623 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:47,239 Speaker 1: of the air and divine communication, connected with wild uplands. 624 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 1: Their dark color and gruesome dietary habits were connected with 625 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:56,120 Speaker 1: war and death. These differences may have represented the competing 626 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,440 Speaker 1: forces of good and evil in the world. 627 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:00,719 Speaker 2: But both of them will help get your meat out 628 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 2: of the pot. 629 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, but again, remember the pot is no mere pot. 630 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,719 Speaker 1: There's no you know, there are no technologies. This is 631 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,439 Speaker 1: central to human existence that don't take on all these 632 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 1: other meanings and metaphors and so forth. So the cauldron 633 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,840 Speaker 1: is it's where you're cooking your meat, it's where you 634 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 1: may be doing your laundry. But that cauldron is also 635 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: the universe. That cauldron is also life itself. It is 636 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 1: the whole experience of humanity. 637 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 2: Wow, that's some profound fondue. 638 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, we didn't even get into fondue. There you go, 639 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 1: another miniature cauldron. 640 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,239 Speaker 2: Well wait, yeah we did. Come on flesh you this 641 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 2: is basically fondue. 642 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: You're talking, Oh, that's right, get any I guess with fondue. 643 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: I have so little experience with it. I just instantly 644 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: think of only cheese and bread, and yeah, I forget 645 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 1: sometimes that there's a richer tradition of of fondue. I 646 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 1: mean there are also other, you know, wonderful traditions of 647 00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 1: you know, communal feasting from heated bowls, you know, Chinese 648 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 1: hot pot traditions and all so and and certainly that's 649 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:08,479 Speaker 1: a that's a fun experience if you get a chance 650 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:09,560 Speaker 1: to partake of that. 651 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 2: I don't think I've ever actually done that. But that's 652 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:16,319 Speaker 2: usually with a not with like like an oil like 653 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 2: you might use to cook in fondu, but that's like 654 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,840 Speaker 2: a highly flavored broth, broth. 655 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: And you can find you know, plenty of modern restaurants. 656 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 1: In fact, I went to one, I want to say 657 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:30,279 Speaker 1: this was in Florida, where not only were was there 658 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 1: a hot pot at your table, but there was also 659 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 1: a conveyor belt going through like a little sushi conveyor belt, 660 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 1: except instead of sushi, it contained various plated ingredients that 661 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:41,839 Speaker 1: you could add to the hot pot. 662 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 2: Oh that sounds awesome. 663 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:45,840 Speaker 1: Yeah it was. It was quite a parade of meats 664 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:49,200 Speaker 1: and vegetables. But that's another thing worth worth keeping in 665 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 1: mind too with these with these cauldrons, you know, it's like, 666 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,200 Speaker 1: this is the pot, is this this thing at the center, 667 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 1: It is this thing on the fire. It is the 668 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,560 Speaker 1: thing that is then communally you, so you can you 669 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,800 Speaker 1: can easily imagine how it just becomes this hyper magnet 670 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 1: for meaning, especially in the ancient world. You know. 671 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:11,360 Speaker 2: I keep thinking back to this plate on the Gundestrup cauldron, 672 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,279 Speaker 2: the one where the giant god is dunking the warriors 673 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 2: in from the underworld into the cauldron. And one thing 674 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,920 Speaker 2: I can't tell from the image is the warrior scared 675 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 2: to be dunked or is the warrior excited like he's 676 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 2: going in head first. You can see he's got one 677 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,319 Speaker 2: arm sort of raised up, but that it could be 678 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:31,880 Speaker 2: like a oh no, oh no, please don't dunk, or 679 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 2: it could be like a wee arms up thing. It's 680 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 2: hard to tell. 681 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,360 Speaker 1: Well, I think if you're being manhandled by a god 682 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,400 Speaker 1: like this, and you're about to be dunked into a 683 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:43,840 Speaker 1: cauldron or a vat of some sort like you should 684 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,800 Speaker 1: be afraid. I think a certain amount of fear is ideal. 685 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,360 Speaker 2: But then again, if the interpretation is right, this warrior 686 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:54,040 Speaker 2: is about to maybe be transformed into a higher state 687 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 2: of existence. 688 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:59,120 Speaker 1: Yeah maybe so maybe so. Now one thing that sort 689 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,439 Speaker 1: of capping off our serious discussion here, And to be clear, 690 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:04,880 Speaker 1: we will be back in another episode on cauldrons. We 691 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:09,759 Speaker 1: have a number of wonderful cauldron mythologies to discuss. We'll 692 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,799 Speaker 1: also get into at least a little bit of Dante's Inferno. 693 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:17,040 Speaker 1: But this also brings me back to a recent film 694 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 1: we looked at on Weird House Cinema, Jason Takes Manhattan. 695 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:24,479 Speaker 1: There is a scene where Jason, who again can be 696 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 1: at least loosely compared to various divine and semi divine 697 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:34,600 Speaker 1: beings in history, he dunks somebody in this vat of 698 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:38,400 Speaker 1: like nasty New York water possible. I guess it's not 699 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,480 Speaker 1: actually toxic sludge, but it looks gross. Kill somebody by 700 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,239 Speaker 1: drowning them, holding them by the feet and dunking them. 701 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 2: I think it's supposed to be toxic waste, and I 702 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,040 Speaker 2: think that is part of the mythology of Jason Takes 703 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,440 Speaker 2: Manhattan is that New York is full of open steel 704 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:54,240 Speaker 2: drums of toxic waste. 705 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:56,520 Speaker 1: But don't lease lie on the street later that is 706 00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,680 Speaker 1: clearly labeled toxic waste. That confuse this is the matter. 707 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:02,800 Speaker 2: I think it's one of the flavors of the soda 708 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 2: fountain machines. 709 00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:05,680 Speaker 1: And you know, you you. 710 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 2: Make you a mix, so you get some new grape 711 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,719 Speaker 2: and then you get some some diet Fanta, and then 712 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 2: you get some some toxic waste manga. 713 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,920 Speaker 1: Fair enough now to be clear that individual in this 714 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,439 Speaker 1: movie does not re emerge from the cauldron changed. He's 715 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:25,840 Speaker 1: just killed in the the the vat or the bucket 716 00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:27,120 Speaker 1: or whatever it was, the barrel. 717 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:32,000 Speaker 2: But well, now hold on a second. I would say 718 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,680 Speaker 2: that the fact that they are in a Friday the 719 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:39,000 Speaker 2: Thirteenth movie, and that we will later see another Friday 720 00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:41,960 Speaker 2: the thirteenth movie with an almost exactly the same stock 721 00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:46,200 Speaker 2: character may in fact mean that these characters are reincarnated 722 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:50,000 Speaker 2: throughout each film and sort of attain new forms. You know, 723 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:53,480 Speaker 2: you've always got your your jock hunk, You've always got 724 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 2: your nerd. You've always got your u you know, strict 725 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,959 Speaker 2: older gentleman. You know, they show up again and again. 726 00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:03,719 Speaker 2: So this may in fact be a well I guess 727 00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:04,960 Speaker 2: it wouldn't be a transformation. 728 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 1: Well I guess you could argue that. I don't know. 729 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:09,440 Speaker 1: So first of all, I do have to ask, is 730 00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 1: this a widely discussed theory or is it? 731 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,759 Speaker 2: Okay, I'm just riffing here, No, I see. Okay, maybe 732 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:19,120 Speaker 2: a bad character gets dunked and then in the next 733 00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:21,240 Speaker 2: movie they're reincarnated as a final girl. 734 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,319 Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, so they're moving up. There is a transformation. Yeah, 735 00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:27,799 Speaker 1: and so you get it's that hierarchy of kill order 736 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:32,040 Speaker 1: where you're going to either fall down or you ascend upwards. 737 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:32,880 Speaker 2: Possibly. 738 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:37,720 Speaker 1: Okay, all right, interesting. Interesting. You know, it's also interesting 739 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 1: if you take this just context of immersion and rebirth, 740 00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:44,560 Speaker 1: which we'll get into some more in our next episode. 741 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: Like you see this in all sorts of films, Like 742 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,200 Speaker 1: I was just thinking of the Star Wars films, like 743 00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:52,319 Speaker 1: what happens when a character is is terribly injured They 744 00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:55,560 Speaker 1: go into the Bacta tank And what is the Bacta 745 00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:59,480 Speaker 1: tank but a kind of magical space cauldron that heals 746 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:01,759 Speaker 1: your wound and allows you to re emerge. 747 00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:05,359 Speaker 2: I thought that scene was weird. Luke's all cut up 748 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:07,200 Speaker 2: and he's in that like weird white diaper. 749 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that I remember as a kid thinking that 750 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:16,399 Speaker 1: was funny. It really and it is still funny. But yeah, 751 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,319 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously there's a lot of a lot of 752 00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:22,200 Speaker 1: this comes from also baptismal imagery, and we'll discuss that 753 00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:24,200 Speaker 1: a little bit in the future. I'm also in this 754 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:28,320 Speaker 1: also reminded of a scene, particularly in the film adaptation, 755 00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:31,320 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighty six adaptation of Umbertawecos and Name of 756 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:33,719 Speaker 1: the Rose, in which I believe the second murder has 757 00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:36,520 Speaker 1: been committed and the body is found immersed in a 758 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,560 Speaker 1: that of pigs blood, that the blood that is going 759 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,719 Speaker 1: to be processed into sausage. And of course that's a 760 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:46,239 Speaker 1: that's a wonderfully terrifying image I remember, especially from the 761 00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:48,640 Speaker 1: movie trailer that I watched as a child, because here's 762 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:52,359 Speaker 1: this cauldron of blood and two legs sticking out of it, 763 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:56,000 Speaker 1: and even that there's so much, so much going on there, 764 00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,880 Speaker 1: because here's the cauldron as a vessel of life and death, 765 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,840 Speaker 1: of food and transformation. But also just here an instrument 766 00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:07,879 Speaker 1: of murder for some deranged individual who's causing chaos at 767 00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:08,400 Speaker 1: the abbey. 768 00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,920 Speaker 2: Okay, I think we must cease cauldroning for today, but 769 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,600 Speaker 2: there will be one more cauldron. 770 00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:16,000 Speaker 1: Yes, and like I say, it should be a fun one. 771 00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:19,479 Speaker 1: We'll get into some more mythologies, we'll discuss a little 772 00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,319 Speaker 1: bit of Dante and who knows what else. All right 773 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:25,279 Speaker 1: in the meantime, Again, if you didn't listen to those 774 00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,359 Speaker 1: first two episodes on the Cauldron, go back and listen 775 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,520 Speaker 1: to those. A lot of good, good content there. Join 776 00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:33,440 Speaker 1: us for the next episode. Core episodes of Stuff to 777 00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:35,640 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind published on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and the 778 00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:39,160 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast feed on Mondays. We 779 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,719 Speaker 1: usually do listener mail. On Wednesdays, we usually do a 780 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:45,040 Speaker 1: Monster Factor Artifact episode that's a short form episode, and 781 00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:47,600 Speaker 1: then on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns and 782 00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:49,360 Speaker 1: we just talk about a strange film. 783 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:52,680 Speaker 2: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth 784 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,160 Speaker 2: Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get in touch 785 00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:57,560 Speaker 2: with us with feedback on this episode or any other, 786 00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:00,800 Speaker 2: to suggest topic for the future, or us to say hello, 787 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,600 Speaker 2: you can email us at contact at Stuff to Blow 788 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:12,440 Speaker 2: Your Mind dot com. 789 00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:15,400 Speaker 3: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 790 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,279 Speaker 3: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 791 00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:34,280 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.