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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob left Side Podcast.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is Christie pat author of the new

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Speaker 1: bestseller Group All about how group therapy saved her life.

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Speaker 1: You can't put this book down. It's written from the

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Speaker 1: viewpoint of the patient. It's not a tone with all

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Speaker 1: the words and vulnerabilities we all have. Christie, Welcome to

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Speaker 1: the podcast. Thanks for having me, Bob. I'm glad to

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Speaker 1: be here. You know, too many people therapy has a

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Speaker 1: bad image. What did it take for you to cross

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Speaker 1: the threshold and actually enter therapy? Well, it's it's nothing

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Speaker 1: very laudable. I was in a lot of pain, and

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Speaker 1: I was really really afraid I was gonna die alone,

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Speaker 1: and nobody knew how much pain I was in. I

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Speaker 1: had I hit it really well. I was. I was

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Speaker 1: probably just depressed. And but if you're not telling anybody,

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Speaker 1: it starts to feel like there's something so so wrong.

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Speaker 1: And I was having suicidal thoughts and wondering something more

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Speaker 1: than what is life for? It was more like how

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Speaker 1: could I die? And this was so incongruous with my

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Speaker 1: outside life. I had just found out I was the

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Speaker 1: valedictorian of my law school. I was in the I

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Speaker 1: was the number one in my law school after the

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Speaker 1: first year, and I should have been happy, but inside

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Speaker 1: I was just like, this is this is going to

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Speaker 1: end badly and I'm seriously gonna die alone. And then

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Speaker 1: I became willing because I thought therapy would be a

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Speaker 1: slog and expensive and self indulgent and ultimately not work.

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Speaker 1: I didn't think it would work. Okay, let's go back

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Speaker 1: a little chapter in retrospect. Was this always your identity

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Speaker 1: to feel disconnected and alone and somewhat depressed, or was

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Speaker 1: it triggered leader in your life. I think I always

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Speaker 1: had seeds of it. I think I felt a little

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Speaker 1: bit like a misfit in my family. Ly, I was

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Speaker 1: moody and artsy, and my family was pretty buttoned up,

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Speaker 1: very Catholic. They loved football in Texas, and I just

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Speaker 1: didn't quite fall into step with them. And I think

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Speaker 1: it probably could have gone either way. And then when

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Speaker 1: I was in high school, right before high school, I

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Speaker 1: was in a traumatic accident. I was with another family

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Speaker 1: and the father that we were with he drowned on

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Speaker 1: the beach while we were in Hawaii, and I think

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Speaker 1: that was a very traumatic thing, and I think I

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Speaker 1: just buried it in my body, and that just pushed

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Speaker 1: me all the way farther from people. And I could

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Speaker 1: put on a good show, I could smile, I could

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Speaker 1: make good grades, but deep down inside, there was like

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Speaker 1: a bomb ticking. Is what it sort of feels like

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Speaker 1: looking back. Okay, now that you've had years of therapy

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Speaker 1: to look back on it, what about that death negatively

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Speaker 1: impact you? Obviously that's a significant thing. But why was

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Speaker 1: it such a traumatic eve in in your life? I

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Speaker 1: think it's because of denial. I always told myself. From

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Speaker 1: the minute we got in the car leaving the beach,

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Speaker 1: I started telling myself a story. This isn't my tragedy,

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Speaker 1: it's it wasn't my dad. My dad was at home

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Speaker 1: in Texas. This was my friend's dad. Don't be dramatic,

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Speaker 1: don't make this about yourself. And consequently, I was a

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Speaker 1: thirteen year old, I was two weeks actually from my

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Speaker 1: fourteenth birthday walking around with traumatic images and sights and sounds,

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Speaker 1: and I just wouldn't let myself feel one drop of

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Speaker 1: it because it didn't belong to me. And part of

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Speaker 1: that was I was just scared. It's very, very scary

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Speaker 1: to face death and something unexpected on a beach is

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Speaker 1: a horrible situation. So I think having the trauma and

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Speaker 1: burying it served to push me far away from people.

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Speaker 1: And what was explained to me by my therapist, who

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Speaker 1: I called Dr Rosen, was because I had unprocessed trauma,

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Speaker 1: if I got close to people, I was going to

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Speaker 1: feel attached and I was gonna worry about losing them,

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Speaker 1: and to me that there's just no way. And I

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Speaker 1: didn't know that was operating like subconsciously, I thought, I'm

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Speaker 1: a nice girl. Why can't I find nice friends and

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Speaker 1: a nice boyfriend? But the truth was some subconscious mechanism

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Speaker 1: was keeping me far away because I was scared I

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Speaker 1: was gonna lose them. And I hadn't even dealt with

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Speaker 1: how how how could you get over something like that?

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Speaker 1: Because I hadn't. Okay, so uh, this would beg the

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Speaker 1: question were these types of thoughts acceptable in your family

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Speaker 1: or did you just talk about events as opposed to feelings.

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Speaker 1: That's a good question. Generally we would talk about events,

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Speaker 1: and I think my parents they could see that I

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Speaker 1: was hurting. When I came home from Hawaii, I started

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Speaker 1: my freshman year. I was at an all girls, very

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Speaker 1: selective challenging school, and I would come home and I

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Speaker 1: would sleep for hours, and then I would do my

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Speaker 1: homework till like two in the morning. I just was

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Speaker 1: things were off with me, and I don't think my

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Speaker 1: parents had the tools. They wanted to help me, and

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Speaker 1: their way was to sort of a message of buck up,

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Speaker 1: but my mom's way of phrasing it, and my dad,

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Speaker 1: they would stand in my doorway and say, you need

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Speaker 1: to like act like a normal teenager. You need to

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Speaker 1: go to football games, you need to stop sleeping, you

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Speaker 1: need to have normal hours. And we sort of just

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Speaker 1: attacked like the outside without the inside, because I don't

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Speaker 1: think any of us we just didn't have the tools.

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Speaker 1: We had no idea how to begin to unravel what

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Speaker 1: I'd experienced. And even before then, I have my eating

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Speaker 1: disorder had already developed, like two years before I was bliming,

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Speaker 1: and that was a secret, so my parents didn't even

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Speaker 1: know about that. So there was a lot kind of

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Speaker 1: crashing in on me during a pretty formative era of

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Speaker 1: my life. I'm interested, what was your relationship with your

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Speaker 1: friend and her family subsequent to her father passing away. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a good question. So we stayed really close, right

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Speaker 1: at the beginning the beginning of high school. I went

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Speaker 1: over to her house every weekend. My parents brought them food.

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Speaker 1: We really were sort of on a sort of a

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Speaker 1: grief a grief huddle, the my myself with their family,

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Speaker 1: and then slowly we it was like we had that

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Speaker 1: trauma bond that was so intense, and then slowly we

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Speaker 1: had different ways of coping. And my way of coping

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Speaker 1: was to sort of like buck up, get good grades

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Speaker 1: and just dive into perfectionism and achievement. And my friend

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Speaker 1: that I was with, she had a different experience, and

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Speaker 1: she ended up leaving our high school and her herd.

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Speaker 1: Her journey was very different than mine. She ended up

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Speaker 1: sort of cutting ties with all of us because she

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Speaker 1: needed to do her healing in a more isolated way.

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Speaker 1: And we didn't we lost touch until I until this

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Speaker 1: book came out. Actually, that was the next question, So

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Speaker 1: you reconnected. What were her feelings about you telling her

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Speaker 1: story in the book? Oh, my gosh, I was. It

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Speaker 1: was the thing I was the most afraid about. That's

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Speaker 1: how persistent the idea in my head was, I can't

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Speaker 1: steal this story from my friend and her brother and

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Speaker 1: their family. And of course Intellectually, I knew my grappling

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Speaker 1: with death and grief, and this event in Hawaii was

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Speaker 1: a huge part of my therapy. But I still that

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Speaker 1: that pernicious idea that I was borrowing their their story

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Speaker 1: from my own. It persisted, and when the right before

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Speaker 1: the book came out, I reached out to her and

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Speaker 1: to her brother and we were all three on the

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Speaker 1: beach together when her dad drowned, and I sent them

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Speaker 1: a copy and I let them know what their father

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Speaker 1: meant to me, what their family meant to me, and

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Speaker 1: they just they had totally taken me in. We've gone

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Speaker 1: on another trip together, and they were a family who

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Speaker 1: just accepted me, and I wanted them to know that

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Speaker 1: that love and what what the acceptance from another family

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Speaker 1: can mean to an awkward kid can be totally life altering,

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Speaker 1: and that I certainly wish that her father hadn't died

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Speaker 1: and we hadn't gone through that. But I don't regret

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Speaker 1: being being one of the witnesses. I don't regret the love.

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Speaker 1: And part of the cost of that was I was

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Speaker 1: there when a horrible thing happened. Okay, just to clarify,

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Speaker 1: you went on another trip while you were still in

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Speaker 1: high school or since you've reconnected. I'm sorry. We went

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Speaker 1: on a trip before we went to Hawaii the spring

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Speaker 1: bright before we've gone on a ski trip together, and

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Speaker 1: so I felt very I felt just accepted and unfolded

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Speaker 1: into their family in a way that was just remarkable.

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Speaker 1: And really it really did a lot for me because

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Speaker 1: I didn't feel that same kind of love and acceptance

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Speaker 1: in my family for whatever reason, and it was really

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Speaker 1: a wonderful thing to land there. Okay, Now you talked

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Speaker 1: about in high school subsequent to this tragic event me

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Speaker 1: having perfectionist tendencies in retrospect, were those always there or

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Speaker 1: was it black and white? After this event? Then you

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Speaker 1: became a perfectionist. I would have told you that I've

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Speaker 1: always been like this, but recently my mother sent me

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Speaker 1: all my old report cards, like from first and second grade,

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Speaker 1: and I have this idea that I was always like

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Speaker 1: a straight A student, like real diligent. Not true, not

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Speaker 1: true at all. In second, third and up through fifth grade,

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Speaker 1: I had lots of bees, which is funny because when

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Speaker 1: I look at it now, when by the time I

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Speaker 1: got to high school, a B was anathema to me,

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Speaker 1: A bee was a failure. So I think that supports

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Speaker 1: the theory that there was something about that trauma that

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Speaker 1: happened right before high school that just turned all my screws,

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Speaker 1: and getting a bee was just absolutely devastating to me,

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Speaker 1: and I worked really hard not to ever have one

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Speaker 1: high school, college, graduate school, and then in law school. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you know, since you're so honest in the book, you

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Speaker 1: talk about your own physicality, you talk about your own

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Speaker 1: sexual experiences, so certainly there's a lot of opening as

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Speaker 1: a result of years of therapy. But you do say

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Speaker 1: that you did have relationships, you did have sex in

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Speaker 1: high school, and so that seems to be at odds.

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Speaker 1: How do you explain that? You mean, how how it's

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Speaker 1: not the case that I had no experiences until I

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Speaker 1: got into therapy. And well, I guess what I'm saying

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Speaker 1: is to the if you look at it just on

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Speaker 1: a factual basis, you're saying that you are inexperienced sexually,

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Speaker 1: you're not feeling sexually, but statistically, you had had sex,

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Speaker 1: you had relationships. So how do you explain the fact

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Speaker 1: that you did have those? Oh, sure in high school.

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Speaker 1: That's when I senior year of high school was when

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Speaker 1: I first became sexually active. I had a boyfriend, and

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Speaker 1: the whole thing, the whole relationship, from the very first day,

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Speaker 1: it was just laced with betrayal and high school drama,

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Speaker 1: and he was always cheating on me. And so while

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Speaker 1: yes I did have those physical experiences, I felt like

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Speaker 1: I had to have sex with him or he wouldn't

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Speaker 1: be my boyfriend, which is a really tricky way to

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Speaker 1: go into a relationship and not so great and myself

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Speaker 1: esteem and my sense of myself as as being someone

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Speaker 1: who was allowed to pick a partner or pick a boyfriend.

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Speaker 1: It didn't that would have never occurred to me. I

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Speaker 1: had to take whoever liked me, and this kid liked me,

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Speaker 1: and even though he cheated on me, I had to

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Speaker 1: just figure out it seemed like it was my problem,

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Speaker 1: not his. In other words, I remember thinking senior year

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Speaker 1: around prom time, well, if I lose some weight, if

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Speaker 1: I go tanning, if I toss up my big Texas hair,

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Speaker 1: then he'll stay with me and be faithful. It became

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Speaker 1: my problem to solve his cheating, and that was like

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Speaker 1: not very satisfying. We'll say that, Okay. One thing you

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Speaker 1: emphasize in the book is that men were not hitting

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Speaker 1: on you, and you did not feel attractive. You would

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Speaker 1: go out with your friends and men would interact with them,

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Speaker 1: but not you. In retrospect, with all this insight from therapy,

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Speaker 1: what do you think was going on there? What I

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Speaker 1: think is that I would go out with my friends,

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Speaker 1: and I think I put out a vibe that basically

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Speaker 1: said don't touch me, don't talk to me, don't look

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Speaker 1: at me. And it was totally subconscious because I'd be

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Speaker 1: with my friends, I'd be dressed up, i'd wear lipstick.

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Speaker 1: I there was nothing physically wrong with me. There was

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Speaker 1: no reason I don't I wasn't aware of sitting there

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Speaker 1: with a scowl on my face. But I think that

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Speaker 1: all the all the subconscious layers of unresolved grief and

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Speaker 1: spear of attachment, all the things I hadn't learned how

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Speaker 1: to do in high school and through college, I think

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Speaker 1: I ultimately just put out a vibe. It was like

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Speaker 1: almost like an invisible fence, like just don't don't go

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Speaker 1: there when it comes to me and when I look

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Speaker 1: back and I think about nights at these bars in college,

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Speaker 1: or when my roommate from college and I at the end,

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Speaker 1: we traveled through Europe, everywhere we went. These men loved her,

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Speaker 1: and I couldn't. None of them would pay any attention

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Speaker 1: to me. And when I think about it, I don't

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Speaker 1: have a single memory of looking any of them in

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Speaker 1: the eye. I think I was really, really, really shut

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Speaker 1: down and really repressed, to the point where I couldn't

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Speaker 1: even look a strange Swiss guy in the eye just

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Speaker 1: to say hello, Okay, you mentioned your boliemia. Can you

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Speaker 1: tell us a little bit more about that. Yeah, So

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Speaker 1: I started throwing up and engaging in all kinds of

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Speaker 1: beliemic shenanigans. When I start it, I started seventh grade.

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Speaker 1: It was March of seventh grade, so I was like thirteen. Now,

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Speaker 1: you say you went to a girls high school? Was

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Speaker 1: it a girls junior high to middle? In middle school?

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Speaker 1: There were boys there and then they separated. We separated

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Speaker 1: at high school, and so it was the first time

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Speaker 1: I did it. I remember, I remember feeling I probably

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have used the word pressure, But what I was

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Speaker 1: aware of is cheerleading tryouts were coming up. This was

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Speaker 1: seventh grade. It was you know, it's Texas. If you're

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Speaker 1: not going to make the cheerleading squad, that's a real problem.

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Speaker 1: So cheerleading. I was also very into ballet, where, of

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Speaker 1: course the standards of having a body the minute you

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Speaker 1: get breasts, you can't be a star ballerina, and I didn't.

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Speaker 1: I was always I was not obese. I was not

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Speaker 1: an obese child, but I was chubby and fleshier then

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Speaker 1: I wanted to be. I wanted to be a bony ballerina.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to be like Kate Moss, and that would

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Speaker 1: have been enormously unhealthy for me and my body type,

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00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:05,400
Speaker 1: maybe even for k Moss. But so I remember thinking, well,

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Speaker 1: I can't control my appetites. But I had read little

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Speaker 1: teen books about believing gymnasts and seen some ABC after

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Speaker 1: school specials, and I was like, well, I'm gonna try it.

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Speaker 1: That'll that fixes the problem. If I can't control my appetite,

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Speaker 1: I'll just control what happens when I've lost control with

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Speaker 1: my appetite. And it felt like this is a pretty

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Speaker 1: good idea. But on some level I knew it was

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Speaker 1: very messed up because it was total secret. I didn't

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Speaker 1: tell anybody. I knew not to say. Oh, I discovered

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Speaker 1: this great trick for losing weight. But that started in

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Speaker 1: seventh grade. Okay, A couple of things. In retrospect. Do

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Speaker 1: you believe same sex education like you had in high

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Speaker 1: school good thing, bad thing, good for you, not good

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Speaker 1: for you. I think it was good for me. I

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Speaker 1: think that I'm really torn. Here's the here's what I

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Speaker 1: believe were the pros. The pros were it really really

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Speaker 1: really cemented my own idea of myself as a feminist.

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Speaker 1: And when you go to an all girl high school,

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Speaker 1: there's no pretending to be dumb, because you don't want

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Speaker 1: the boy next to you to think you're like a

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Speaker 1: buzz kill or not girlfriend material if you're acing physics.

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Speaker 1: So everybody worked really hard. The downside of that is

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of pressure. But also and an all

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Speaker 1: girls high school, every leadership position is held by a

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Speaker 1: woman or a young girl, right, every every student council member,

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Speaker 1: and all the ideas that are generated about what we're

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Speaker 1: gonna do here, it was all girls. So I think

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Speaker 1: that that really instilled in me something really important about

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Speaker 1: understanding who can be in charge, who can run the show.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's great for a young feminist, that was awesome.

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Speaker 1: But by the time I got to college and I

292
00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:53,880
Speaker 1: went to a giant state school Texas, A and M.

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Speaker 1: There were boys everywhere. I hadn't sat next to a

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Speaker 1: boy in math class since I was thirteen years old,

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Speaker 1: and I didn't know how to be just friends. I

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Speaker 1: didn't know how they just like, go have a meal

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Speaker 1: with a boy. Everything was the date felt like a date,

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Speaker 1: and I just I it took me a long time

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Speaker 1: to find some ease in friendships with boys because we

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Speaker 1: I didn't have access to them all day long, all

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Speaker 1: through high school. Okay, Now, one point you make in

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00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:22,760
Speaker 1: the book was you had a dream to go to

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00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,280
Speaker 1: an Ivy League school, but you ended up going to

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00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:30,800
Speaker 1: a state school for financial reasons. To what degree did

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00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:36,160
Speaker 1: that negatively impact you and possibly still negative impactly? Um,

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00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:40,880
Speaker 1: you know, I thought, I've had some I've had some lingering,

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00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:44,639
Speaker 1: like longing for a different kind of college experience. It

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00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,920
Speaker 1: sounds ridiculous because I'm forty seven years old. And one

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00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:51,840
Speaker 1: thing I did for myself was when I finished with

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00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:55,159
Speaker 1: my undergraduate degree, I thought to myself, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: don't know what you do with an English degree. That

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00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:58,480
Speaker 1: was one of the things I thought. And the next

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Speaker 1: one was, if you're gonna walk around being resentful about

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00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:05,159
Speaker 1: where you went to college, do something about it. So

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Speaker 1: I did have I got a master's at the University

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00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,440
Speaker 1: of Chicago, which is not Ivy League, but it was

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Speaker 1: close enough and had the Gothic walls, it had the

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00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:16,399
Speaker 1: harsh winters, and had the really smart people. So I

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00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:18,960
Speaker 1: went and did that sort of as an amends to myself.

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Speaker 1: And luckily now I've I've done enough in my life

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00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:24,920
Speaker 1: that no one cares where I went to college. But

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00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:28,160
Speaker 1: it is part of my story in that I remember

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00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,840
Speaker 1: that longing and it's it's something that I still think

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Speaker 1: about from time to time. Okay, this is glossed over

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00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:39,840
Speaker 1: in the book. So you went immediately from college to

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00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:44,359
Speaker 1: graduate school where you off and your graduate degree is

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00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,800
Speaker 1: in what my graduate degree from the University of Chicago

328
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,640
Speaker 1: is in humanities. So, first of all, for those people

329
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Speaker 1: don't know, Universe Chicago and we can define what an

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00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:58,399
Speaker 1: Ivy League schools, but certainly elite, unbelievable and I've actually

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00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:03,920
Speaker 1: been there. But since you were going for humanities, you said,

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00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:06,040
Speaker 1: what would I do with an English degree? What was

333
00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:09,000
Speaker 1: your plan? What to do with the humanities degree? That

334
00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:12,040
Speaker 1: is such a good question. That's where my parents were

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00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:15,920
Speaker 1: like humanities, Um what And my thought was I'll do this.

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00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,679
Speaker 1: It was a one year terminal Masters, and I thought, well,

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00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,639
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go. I'm gonna dabble in all the humanities

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00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:23,920
Speaker 1: and figure out which way to go for a PhD.

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00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,840
Speaker 1: And at the end of the program, all of the

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00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:31,040
Speaker 1: members of my my class there was like maybe twenty

341
00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:34,320
Speaker 1: seven of us in the Humanities department for that year.

342
00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,960
Speaker 1: Everybody was either going to become a teacher or a lawyer.

343
00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,120
Speaker 1: And I still wasn't sure, so I took more time off.

344
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:42,639
Speaker 1: I just went. By the time I got to the

345
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,600
Speaker 1: University of Chicago, I knew so many people who were

346
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,120
Speaker 1: all a b D all but dissertation, and they looked

347
00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,639
Speaker 1: really smart and really unhappy, like really unhappy, and I

348
00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,600
Speaker 1: was like, I was worried that the pH d route

349
00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:57,800
Speaker 1: was going to be really lonely and that no one

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00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:00,040
Speaker 1: would ever read it. Who's gonna read my PhD? I

351
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,280
Speaker 1: couldn't picture it. I knew someone who was doing like

352
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:07,080
Speaker 1: images of women and chessboards and medieval literature, and I

353
00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:09,640
Speaker 1: was like, this is what I'm gonna do with my life,

354
00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:12,240
Speaker 1: and it just didn't feel right. So I kind of

355
00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,280
Speaker 1: wandered for a couple of years after that until I

356
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,240
Speaker 1: too settled on law school. Okay, just because you bring

357
00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:19,920
Speaker 1: up debt in the book, did you have a debt

358
00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:24,480
Speaker 1: from the University of Chicago? Yes, I did, and that

359
00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,440
Speaker 1: was a very sobering experience. You know, you differ for

360
00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:29,679
Speaker 1: the song. I was able to defer for the summer

361
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,520
Speaker 1: for some reason because I didn't have a job. And

362
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:34,720
Speaker 1: then once, you know, I get a job, I got

363
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,399
Speaker 1: a I got an apartment and I was living a

364
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,320
Speaker 1: whole Mary Tyler more in the city thing. And then

365
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,399
Speaker 1: that that first bill comes and like, please remit your payment.

366
00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:45,640
Speaker 1: It was like four hundred and twenty three dollars, which

367
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:49,320
Speaker 1: was insane. That was like half of my first paycheck.

368
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,600
Speaker 1: And it was very, very sobering, and I thought it

369
00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:55,040
Speaker 1: was worth it. But it's it's I really feel for

370
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,680
Speaker 1: people who are struggling with student debt. It's it's not

371
00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,120
Speaker 1: a joke. Okay, So many years did you take off

372
00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:05,760
Speaker 1: from between graduate school and law school between? I graduated

373
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:10,000
Speaker 1: from the UFC and nine and then I matriculated in

374
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:13,040
Speaker 1: law school in two thousand. Then what do you do

375
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,440
Speaker 1: for the two years in between? I went to d C.

376
00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:19,160
Speaker 1: I moved with some friends to a group home in Washington,

377
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:21,960
Speaker 1: d C. And I took a job. We called it

378
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,600
Speaker 1: a mix job because it was not a career position.

379
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:29,280
Speaker 1: And I worked for a company that helped law firms

380
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:33,760
Speaker 1: retrieve legal documents from recalcitrant judges. It was it was

381
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:35,320
Speaker 1: just like sitting on the phone all day trying to

382
00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,480
Speaker 1: find documents back. This is before the internet was Could

383
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,040
Speaker 1: you could do it? All? Right? And then I moved

384
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,920
Speaker 1: back to Chicago, UM and I was I worked for

385
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,040
Speaker 1: the University of Chicago as an administrative assistant with a

386
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,760
Speaker 1: master's degree, still thinking I don't know. I wasn't ready

387
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,160
Speaker 1: to let go of the PhD. And I needed one

388
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,560
Speaker 1: more year. I worked for a professor who was a

389
00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,960
Speaker 1: PhD and statistician, and that killed the h D dream

390
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:03,160
Speaker 1: killed it dead. And then I went to law school.

391
00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 1: How did you decide to go to law school? Well,

392
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,360
Speaker 1: I was when I was working at the UFC. There

393
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,040
Speaker 1: was a woman there who I just I loved her.

394
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,119
Speaker 1: She was a little bit younger than I was, so

395
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:17,040
Speaker 1: she was I was probably twenty five and she was

396
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,919
Speaker 1: twenty four, and she was married, and she was smart,

397
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:21,639
Speaker 1: and she was studying for the l set and she

398
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:23,520
Speaker 1: was gonna go to law school. And she just she

399
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 1: had this plan and it looked so appealing to me.

400
00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 1: And around that time, I had a boyfriend and we

401
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,080
Speaker 1: broke up and I was so devastated and I was like,

402
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,879
Speaker 1: I need a plan, I need something to do. And

403
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,840
Speaker 1: I had that kind of feeling around the breakup where

404
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:41,960
Speaker 1: where I was convinced this is where I started realizing

405
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:46,200
Speaker 1: I may die alone because the relationship fell apart and

406
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,240
Speaker 1: I couldn't imagine how I could fix whatever inside of

407
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,440
Speaker 1: me had made that relationship go wrong, or picking a

408
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,200
Speaker 1: person who wasn't right for me. And I was like, well,

409
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,159
Speaker 1: if I'm never going to have a good personal relationship,

410
00:22:58,240 --> 00:22:59,680
Speaker 1: if I'm never going to be able to get the

411
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,399
Speaker 1: for the romance part of my life in order, then

412
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:05,680
Speaker 1: I'll go to law school because it will give me

413
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:08,760
Speaker 1: so much to do. I'll just grind myself into the

414
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,080
Speaker 1: ground and it won't matter that I don't have a

415
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 1: boyfriend and now at least have money and social power

416
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,320
Speaker 1: and people will at least be like, well, she's got

417
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 1: this great job. And it was like a consolation prize decision. Okay,

418
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 1: because it also comes up in the book you talk

419
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,920
Speaker 1: about the status of your law school and the ability

420
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,879
Speaker 1: to get a job subsequent graduation. How did you feel

421
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 1: about the law school you went to. Was that the

422
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,479
Speaker 1: one you chose or did you try to get Did

423
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 1: you apply to a Smoker's board of law schools? What

424
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:41,160
Speaker 1: was your comfort level there? Oh? My god. I dreamed

425
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 1: of going to Northwestern Law School in Chicago or the UFC,

426
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:48,640
Speaker 1: and I also knew I didn't have the els AT

427
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:50,439
Speaker 1: score for it at that time. I don't know if

428
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,640
Speaker 1: it's still like that, but at the time I was applying,

429
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:57,280
Speaker 1: which would have been the els AT score was everything.

430
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,200
Speaker 1: And I'm a hustler and I'm a beast when it

431
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,200
Speaker 1: comes to making good grades. But I can't do those

432
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,040
Speaker 1: tests in a way that would get me into a

433
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 1: school of my dreams. So I sort of had to

434
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 1: decide how I was going to proceed with this. And

435
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 1: one of the things I decided was, Okay, if I

436
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 1: just get in somewhere, the deal is, I just have

437
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:17,440
Speaker 1: to be the best there is. I just have to

438
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,639
Speaker 1: I have to be number one in my class, or

439
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 1: at least I didn't think number one. That's not true.

440
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 1: I thought I have to be in the top ten percent.

441
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 1: If I'm going to be at one of these law schools.

442
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 1: That's not top tier. Okay, you do end up number one.

443
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,399
Speaker 1: I have to ask how that happens. Are you that smart?

444
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 1: Are you that hard of worker? Is the competition not

445
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,440
Speaker 1: as stiff or all of those things? Give me your take.

446
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,400
Speaker 1: My take on it is number one. I had come

447
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 1: out of the graduate program that I've done at the

448
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 1: University of Chicago. It was so hard and so intense,

449
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 1: in part because I'd come from Texas a and then

450
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 1: which is not it would just it, frankly, isn't as

451
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: rigorous as what was going on at the UFC. I

452
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 1: was plopped from Texas into Chicago all of a sudden,

453
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,440
Speaker 1: like one week's reading would be for one class would

454
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 1: be like four or five scholarly articles plus Uncle Tom's Cabin,

455
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 1: which is a nine hundred and seven page book, And

456
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 1: that was one class, and I was taking three, and

457
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,879
Speaker 1: I was I almost drowned, like in the in the

458
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 1: pursuit of just trying to get it all straight. And

459
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 1: I didn't feel like I was very good at what

460
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,639
Speaker 1: was happening in graduate school. So by the time I

461
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,200
Speaker 1: got to law school, I was like so well trained

462
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 1: on reading a ton and just working really hard and that.

463
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 1: The thing about law school as it was taught at Loyola,

464
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 1: it was all black letter a lot. If you memorize it,

465
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:46,879
Speaker 1: you've got it. And so I didn't have to like

466
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:52,400
Speaker 1: make up theories about Lakhanian mirror stage in Uncle Tom's cabin.

467
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 1: I had to memorize what's the rule of perpetuities? How

468
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 1: would you apply it? And I could wrap my hands

469
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,080
Speaker 1: all the way around it, and I think that And

470
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 1: also I just that's all I did. I did not

471
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 1: do one. I said no, no, no to social things,

472
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 1: and it's I didn't have a life. I just studied. Okay.

473
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,400
Speaker 1: The book opens with you with a moment of existential angst,

474
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 1: which is really I've never seen it described as well,

475
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: we're on paper, you're at the peak of your life,

476
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,440
Speaker 1: and emotionally you're crashing. This is before you start therapy.

477
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 1: Can you tell us about what you were feeling? Then? Yeah,

478
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 1: I remember that day so vividly, the day before the

479
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 1: real loud crisis in my head became full blown and

480
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,199
Speaker 1: not just a low grade drum. I had gone up

481
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 1: to school, you could go. It was during the summer,

482
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 1: so I was working at a like a lof term

483
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 1: as an intern, and you can go up to school.

484
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 1: You go to the burst's office, you give them your

485
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 1: I D. And they give you a card and tells

486
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,360
Speaker 1: you your class rank. And I have this little white

487
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 1: card and it says number one out of two seventy

488
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 1: two out of one seventy two. And I felt this

489
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 1: moment of like shock and euphoria, like oh my God,

490
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 1: like oh my God, like all the ramifications of that,

491
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 1: all my hard work paid off, and I can work

492
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 1: anywhere I want in the city and maybe even in

493
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 1: a different city. And I felt euphoria. By the time

494
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,159
Speaker 1: I had taken the elevator down and walked to the sidewalk,

495
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:24,200
Speaker 1: I felt I had suicidal ideation, like, well, you did it, Toots,

496
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 1: But that's all you're gonna get. You can work really,

497
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,679
Speaker 1: really hard, and you can ace all these exams whatever,

498
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: but you can't have a best friend, and you can't

499
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 1: have people over to your house, and you have no

500
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: idea how to have a boyfriend, and you never will.

501
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 1: And that the thought of all of that made the

502
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 1: victory of the valid potential Valectorian. It made it feel

503
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 1: so hollow and so fraudulent in some way, because I

504
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 1: had done it to hide and so I think that

505
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: I I think that. So then the next day what

506
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 1: happened was I is driving around and it was just

507
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 1: like getting louder and louder, like your number one, You're

508
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 1: totally alone. And I knew that those were linked, and

509
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: no one else in the world knew that the way

510
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 1: that I knew it in my bones, and I just thought,

511
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: am I going to kill myself? Should I kill mice?

512
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 1: I was like, wait, should I? Is someone in my position,

513
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,959
Speaker 1: like I'm I'm having the Socratic method with myself, right,

514
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 1: Is someone in my position who's just gonna work hard

515
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,120
Speaker 1: to make money for some corporation, doesn't have any idea

516
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,880
Speaker 1: what her two hearts desires are? Is that a person

517
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 1: who should kill herself? And when I had that question,

518
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, I'm in trouble. I'm

519
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 1: thinking I just I should die it just I could.

520
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 1: I could see the disparity, and I was so I

521
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: was so clueless about how to pull out of the

522
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 1: despair that I was in, and I could imagine it

523
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 1: going lower and lower and lower. And that's a person

524
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 1: that I'm grateful that the pain was so scary that

525
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: it made me willing to check out some therapy. Okay,

526
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 1: I just want to say, because people tend to paint

527
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: with a broad brush, and once you dig deep, the

528
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: reality is a little bit different. You did not. Let's

529
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 1: go back to subsequent to this traumatic event, just before

530
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 1: high school. You essentially never had a close friend. You

531
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: didn't have people come over, you didn't have your group,

532
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 1: you were isolated. That's a good point in high school.

533
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: I had so high school's right after the events of

534
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 1: of Hawaii, the traumatic event, and I did. I had

535
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: close friends, but I couldn't hold on. I could, you know,

536
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 1: go with the crew and we go to the park

537
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 1: and we'd underage drink and I'd go to the dance

538
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 1: with my friends. But I felt like I was very

539
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: far away, if that makes any sense. I felt like

540
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: the whole me wasn't there. And maybe that's because I

541
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: had the sense of I had all these secrets. I

542
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 1: had a secret eating disorder, I had a secret I

543
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 1: had a sense that I could never talk about Hawaii.

544
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 1: I could never say I was scared. I could never

545
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 1: admit to all the wonderful, bubbly Catholic girls that I

546
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 1: was in school with, I couldn't admit to them that,

547
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: like I think I may be not believing in God

548
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: right now. Um, so I had the sense of partners

549
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 1: because of all the things I held back. But I

550
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 1: did I did have friends like I. They loved me,

551
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 1: but there was a part of me that they couldn't reach.

552
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 1: And I got more and more isolated as the years

553
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: went by. And in college I had I had a

554
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 1: very close best friend and we ran around together and

555
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 1: it's and and then she was able to transition into

556
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 1: adulthood and I'm still going to school. And once I

557
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: got once I moved from Texas to Chicago, so by

558
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: then I was twenty two. I just didn't know. I

559
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 1: was so shut down. I could do small talk and

560
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 1: I could chit chat with people and fairly extroverted. That's

561
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 1: always been true. But in terms of being a true

562
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 1: person who could be vulnerable and do the things of

563
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 1: a friendship, I just didn't have it in me anymore.

564
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 1: I didn't know how to do it. So common int

565
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 1: with all these experiences, you're going to overreaters, anonymous or

566
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 1: whatever by the exact a group as you can tell me,

567
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: tell me when you started that and what that was.

568
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 1: Experience was like, yeah, so that actually saved my life.

569
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 1: At the time I was in college. I was a sophomore,

570
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: and all the pressures of I had to get a

571
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 1: four point oh so far I had a four point

572
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 1: oh in college, and now I'm starting my sophomore year

573
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of drinking and I'm I'm not

574
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: great with that. I just felt really uncomfortable. I was

575
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: scared of getting fat and drinking in Bolimia are a

576
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: really bad We're a bad combination for me. Maybe it

577
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 1: works for other people. Um, And so I got really

578
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: scared because I was starting to not be able to

579
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 1: hold onto everything. I was starting to binge during the

580
00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: day and I used to just binge at night. And

581
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 1: I skipped a class. I skipped an English class, which

582
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 1: never in my life, never never had I ever skipped class,

583
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 1: certainly not my beloved literature class. And I realized I

584
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 1: turned in a paper. Then I was writing a paper

585
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 1: after I skipped class, and it was terrible, and I

586
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: was like, I didn't I didn't have the energy to

587
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 1: make it right. And I just kept binging. And I

588
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 1: went to get rid of the food and I fainted

589
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 1: in the shower and I was like, oh my god.

590
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 1: I was nineteen, and I thought I'm going to die

591
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: doing this. I'm a very dramatic person, but I was like,

592
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: I was like, this is dangerous. This is very dangerous.

593
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 1: And a friend of mine in high school had gotten

594
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 1: into a twelve step program for alcoholism, and she suggested

595
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: that I go to the one for eaters. And I

596
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: was like, but I'm not fat. I thought I had

597
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 1: to wait until I was obetes. I didn't even know,

598
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 1: and she said, why don't you just check it out.

599
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 1: People who are believe it can go too. And so

600
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 1: then I started going to meetings, which was great because

601
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 1: they taught me, they gave me some skills. I work steps,

602
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 1: I had a sponsor, I got the coins and that

603
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 1: stuff is all really great. But I also treated it

604
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 1: like a secret. I didn't tell my roommate knew because

605
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 1: she's like, where are you going on a ninth at

606
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: nine thirty on Saturday morning? Every Saturday morning. So I

607
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 1: told my roommate, but I never wanted to talk about it,

608
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 1: and it just became another way I had a secret

609
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 1: from the world. I exchanged the Bolivia for the meetings

610
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 1: as a secret. Okay, but in the when you go

611
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 1: through the steps, don't you have to make amends to

612
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: people and therefore interact and reveal that you're in the group. Yes,

613
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 1: and I did make a mint, so I made him

614
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 1: in my roommate. Um, bless her heart. I stole so

615
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: much food from her. So I had definitely made amends

616
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: to her and to my family. And there were you know,

617
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 1: there was some uh friends on there too, and I

618
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 1: definitely told them. But by then, like when I had

619
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 1: to go back to my high school. I went back

620
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 1: to my high school because I'd stolen money when I

621
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 1: was a junior and I was in charge of the

622
00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 1: parking lot fees and I just took some money and

623
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 1: of course I had I took a check and I

624
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: had interests and I walked in the building. I'm now

625
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 1: I'm probably right before I moved to Chicago, and I

626
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 1: ran into my trigonometry teacher and I was like, I

627
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 1: just blurted. I was like, I'm the I'm a member

628
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,320
Speaker 1: of a twelve step program, and in order to stay sober,

629
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 1: I have to give you this money because I stole it.

630
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: And she was like, uh, let me take you to

631
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 1: the office. And she's like, I don't know what to

632
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 1: do with this money. Um, So I did do that.

633
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,320
Speaker 1: But I think that I, you know, I wasn't open.

634
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,439
Speaker 1: It wasn't Nobody ever asked me a follow up question

635
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 1: like how are you doing? Do you still go to meetings?

636
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 1: I think I just blurted it out and then went

637
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 1: back behind the curtain because I didn't. I was ashamed.

638
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,439
Speaker 1: I was super ashamed of what I'd done, of being

639
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 1: a being nineteen years old and going to twelve Step

640
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 1: meetings like some old dude from a A on TV.

641
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:54,280
Speaker 1: And I kept it still very guarded and very under wraps. Okay,

642
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 1: now it's through oh A that you ultimately connect with

643
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: the therapist. Can you tell sad story? Yeah? So two

644
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 1: pieces of that. Number one is the summer. So after

645
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 1: I find out my class rank, I'm starting to sort

646
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 1: of like Frey at the edges emotionally, and I'd go

647
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 1: to my meetings, my little twelve Step meetings, and I

648
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,360
Speaker 1: would just cry and people say are you okay? And

649
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: I'd be like, yeah, I'm fine, just kind of like

650
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 1: I don't even know what to say. What do I say?

651
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: I'm I'm first in my law school class, and I

652
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 1: kind of want to die it just I didn't know

653
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: how to do that. And people started recommending their therapists

654
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:34,720
Speaker 1: to me, and I was like, I'm not going to therapy.

655
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 1: I don't have any money, first of all. And then

656
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 1: finally this woman was like, please come to dinner with me,

657
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 1: and I didn't want to go. I was like, that

658
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 1: was not something I didn't do. The fellowshipping very well.

659
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 1: I didn't want to do that, and so I went

660
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 1: to dinner with her and she just looked, you know,

661
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 1: like when you run into someone who something's changed. Like

662
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 1: I was like, did you fall in love? Are you pregnant?

663
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 1: What's going on here? She's wearing lip glass and her

664
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 1: eyes are bright, and she just seemed lighter. And she said, oh,

665
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 1: it's my new therapist. And I was like, oh, here

666
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 1: we go again. And she didn't even really She said,

667
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: you know, he could really help you, and I was

668
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,319
Speaker 1: like yeah, yeah, yeah, and she said, well he does

669
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 1: groups and they're really cheap. And I just seized on

670
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:16,839
Speaker 1: the word cheap and I said, what do you mean cheap?

671
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: And she's like, it's like one third the cost of

672
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 1: an individual. And she started telling me about her group.

673
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 1: But really what sold me was what I saw in

674
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 1: her eyes and what I could see about her being

675
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 1: because everyone had everyone loves their therapist and wants you

676
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 1: to go see their therapists. But I saw something in her.

677
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 1: Plus it was cheap, and so that sort of convinced me.

678
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 1: And then when I went to my first meeting, I mean,

679
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,959
Speaker 1: I went ahead and called him because I thought, well, okay. Oh. Also,

680
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 1: she told me right before we left, like you're standing

681
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,800
Speaker 1: at the the exit of a restaurant, She's gonna go

682
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 1: one way and I go to the other. Off the

683
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 1: top of her head, I don't even know what made

684
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 1: her said say this. She said, Oh, he's really happy.

685
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 1: He just got remarried, and he smiles all the time.

686
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:05,839
Speaker 1: And something about that just so captivated my imagination, like remarried,

687
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,720
Speaker 1: he knows what it's like to lose love and a divorce,

688
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 1: and he smiles. And I just became convinced that this

689
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 1: therapist could help me. So I made an appointment and

690
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 1: I go see him, and I sit down for my

691
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 1: first appointment, and I knew him. I had seen him

692
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 1: in meetings meeting meetings when I was in graduate school,

693
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 1: and I immediately thought, oh, my god, he's gonna tell

694
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: me he can't be my therapist because he knows me

695
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 1: from meetings. But he didn't actually recognize me, and by

696
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:34,919
Speaker 1: the time I told him where we've been, he said,

697
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 1: that's not a reason for us not to work together. Okay,

698
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 1: And you saw him three times before you went to

699
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 1: the group which we inspired, you know, in that prep

700
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 1: of three times. Oh my gosh. He was so weird.

701
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:54,759
Speaker 1: He was so weird, he was so confident. I would

702
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 1: tell him two little lines about like a relationship i'd

703
00:37:57,680 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: have like the guy that I dated in high school

704
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: who did on me a lot and smoked a ton

705
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 1: of pot, and he would so then he just said, oh,

706
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 1: you like addicts, you love alcoholics, And I thought, well,

707
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 1: I don't know. That seems sort of aggressive. Um. I

708
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 1: didn't disagree, but I thought that he was being pretty

709
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 1: forward and pretty copy um. And part of me didn't

710
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 1: like that, and part of me loved it, like I

711
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,359
Speaker 1: felt so seen, and the fact that he could pick

712
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 1: up on the patterns in my life helped me know

713
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 1: that I was kind of a type in some way,

714
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 1: that he'd seen women or men like me, and that

715
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 1: he he had my number. I knew that when I

716
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 1: mentioned I was first in my class and that I

717
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 1: have I was BLIEMI recovering Beliem it. He just seemed

718
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,360
Speaker 1: to be He just kind of looked at me like, ah, okay, okay,

719
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 1: so what do you want? He just kept asking me

720
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:51,759
Speaker 1: what do you want? What do you want? And what

721
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 1: I really wanted was the way that I phrased it

722
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 1: back then, was I wanted to be a real person.

723
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 1: I wanted to like exhale around other people and not

724
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 1: constantly be striving to make them happy or get the

725
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 1: good grade or be the best. I wanted to just

726
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 1: be a person. I wanted friends to just stop by

727
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: my house and me not put any makeup on or

728
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 1: do anything. I just wanted ease and casualness and real

729
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:22,320
Speaker 1: deep attachments. And I really wanted a boyfriend. And I

730
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 1: told him all that, and then he kept saying, what else,

731
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 1: what else? And I was almost annoyed because I was like, listen,

732
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,359
Speaker 1: Mr Perfect, And I could see his degrees on the wall,

733
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,360
Speaker 1: and they were fancy. They were Harvard, Harvard, Harvard, Harvard.

734
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 1: I was like, listen, Harvard, if you deliver on those things,

735
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:42,919
Speaker 1: then we can talk about what else. But I didn't

736
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 1: have this bucket list full of I want to be

737
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:49,399
Speaker 1: a poet, I want to travel the world. I didn't

738
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: have any of that. Let's deal with the basics here.

739
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 1: So I was intrigued by his confidence about what he

740
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 1: saw in me. And then at the end of the

741
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 1: first session, he said, I can get you where. We

742
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 1: can get you where you want to go. If you

743
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 1: join a group and you disclosed to the group every

744
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:14,239
Speaker 1: aspect of your relationship, life, every aspect of love, friendship,

745
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:16,320
Speaker 1: all of it. If you can turn it over to

746
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 1: the group and commit to the group, we can get you.

747
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:21,760
Speaker 1: We can get you married, we can get you friends.

748
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 1: You want babies, it's like babies, Like, let's just get

749
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 1: me a hygienic boyfriend. I was not there yet, but

750
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 1: he was really I thought it was really overpromising to

751
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,760
Speaker 1: be frank. Okay, so you show up for the first

752
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 1: day at the group. What's your experience? Oh my god,

753
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Well I was really happy that right

754
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 1: before my last that that third session when he's Dr

755
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 1: Rosen is like, and that's not his real name. Everyone

756
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 1: thinks it is. It's not that last session, Like, with

757
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 1: two seconds to go, I had the wherewithal to say, wait, wait,

758
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 1: what's going to happen to me when I start group?

759
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: And he did that. I'm so glad you asked, and

760
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 1: he said, every single one of your secrets is going

761
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 1: to come out. And I felt like someone had just

762
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,800
Speaker 1: like shot an arrow through my heart like terror. I

763
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:13,320
Speaker 1: didn't even I didn't have in mind like what secret

764
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:16,319
Speaker 1: it was. But I was like, oh, oh my god,

765
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 1: so afraid. And so then I go into my first session.

766
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 1: And this will tell you something about how little, how

767
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:27,879
Speaker 1: few boundaries I had. The first thing that someone says

768
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 1: to me, a man in the group across the circle

769
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:34,879
Speaker 1: from me says, top or bottom, I know he's talking

770
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 1: about sex, and I it didn't even occur to me

771
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 1: to to say, why are you asking that? Or I

772
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 1: don't have to answer that, or who are you or

773
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,360
Speaker 1: why don't you go first? I was just like, uh okay,

774
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 1: uh top, Like I did not know that. I think

775
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 1: that says everything about my state of mind and my

776
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,879
Speaker 1: state of people pleasing, because I was like, you want

777
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 1: to know, I'll tell you anything you want to know.

778
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:02,959
Speaker 1: And all these years later, I still go to group.

779
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 1: I've seen people come in, men and women deal with

780
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 1: that kind of hazing, as I call it, in so

781
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 1: many different ways, and I just didn't. I did. I

782
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,839
Speaker 1: did my thing, which was try to deliver and I've

783
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 1: seen other people say I'm not going there with you.

784
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,880
Speaker 1: I'll tell you later or maybe or we've got to

785
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:23,800
Speaker 1: do some more work before I tell you how I

786
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: want to have sex. So it was like from the

787
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 1: very first second, it was like go time. Okay, there's

788
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff you reveal, so for people who

789
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 1: haven't read the book and maybe sound like I'm really

790
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:37,799
Speaker 1: digging deep, but it's right there in the book. One

791
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 1: there's a focus on your breasts and that they are large,

792
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,800
Speaker 1: and you say a couple of things, one that you

793
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:49,320
Speaker 1: were brought to sleep, be that you wear two bras,

794
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:53,359
Speaker 1: and this comes up in therapy, So what's going on there?

795
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:58,239
Speaker 1: I that that that absolutely did happen. We still talk

796
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:01,839
Speaker 1: about breasts all the time, which to me, I would

797
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 1: never be comfortable doing the work I needed to do

798
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 1: around my breasts and how I feel about them and

799
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:10,320
Speaker 1: what they mean to me and what they mean to culture,

800
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 1: and what they mean to my lovers or my children

801
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 1: or anybody else. I would never be able to do

802
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 1: that work. If I was not in a group with

803
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:20,840
Speaker 1: other women, I would not be able to sit across

804
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:25,720
Speaker 1: from an authority figure like a therapist and just talk freely.

805
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:27,919
Speaker 1: I just don't. I can't imagine it. Maybe I could,

806
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:30,839
Speaker 1: I can't imagine it. But because I go to group

807
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: where there's three or four or five other women in

808
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 1: the circle, and all of us have different relationship to

809
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:39,800
Speaker 1: our breasts, right, it happens to be My story is

810
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: that little Christie Ballerina in me is so sad that

811
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 1: I have breasts and I don't have the super flat chest.

812
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 1: It's like I always think of that as like, that's

813
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 1: my anorexia talking the part of me that like I

814
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 1: just want that bony, flat Margot Fontaine Ballerina chest and

815
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 1: that's not what I have. I have like double ds.

816
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 1: And so there's other women in my group who are

817
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 1: deeply ashamed, deeply ashamed that their breasts are really really small.

818
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 1: There's women in my group who are sad that they

819
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 1: were big, they had children and now they're small. And

820
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:16,840
Speaker 1: how complicated that is and how how that's tied to

821
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,840
Speaker 1: my understanding of myself as a woman, as a sexual being,

822
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:25,280
Speaker 1: as someone who's safe in society or not safe based

823
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 1: on my breast. It's been incredible and one of the

824
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 1: things we excavated in the This was probably my second

825
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 1: year I had had an experience in high school where

826
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 1: I participated in this. I it was like one of

827
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 1: the dances, like a spring fling dance, and we were

828
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:45,240
Speaker 1: out this part. I was drunk. I've been drinking proudly, Zeema,

829
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 1: I'm not proud of that, but that's what happened. And

830
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 1: I was buzzed and the boys were like paying attention

831
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 1: to me, and I had a strap the stress my day.

832
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 1: I don't know where my date was. He was somewhere off.

833
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 1: All the girls were off somewhere, and I somehow wandered

834
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 1: over to all the boy They've got their dip in

835
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:04,320
Speaker 1: their mouth, they've got their beers, they all are dating

836
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 1: my friends. And one of them walked over and he

837
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 1: stuck his hand down my dress. And I remember laughing,

838
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 1: but also like not like just knowing like something was happening,

839
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:18,800
Speaker 1: that the laughter was covering it like shame. It was

840
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 1: shame and violation, and also like I don't know how

841
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:27,360
Speaker 1: to stop this, and somewhere inside I knew I didn't.

842
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:30,720
Speaker 1: I wasn't like the other girls who had self esteem

843
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:34,279
Speaker 1: or didn't have boys hands down their dress. Um, And

844
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 1: then one by one they did. I think it was

845
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:39,319
Speaker 1: like five couple of them more than once, and I'm

846
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 1: just laughing, carefree. I liked the attention. I liked the

847
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 1: None of these boys really paid that much attention to

848
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 1: me was my perception, and that was something that came

849
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 1: out in group early on. And when I shared that

850
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 1: in group, every single woman in the group shared a

851
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 1: story about her breasts. Not all violations, some of them

852
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 1: just feelings. And I can't even tell you how much

853
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 1: less alone I felt, which sounds like not like that

854
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 1: doesn't sound like therapeutically cataclysmic, but it was. It was

855
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:18,919
Speaker 1: to me. I'd never had these conversations. I never knew

856
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,840
Speaker 1: I could say what had happened to me and have

857
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,280
Speaker 1: like watch women's heads nodding like yeah, yeah, that happened

858
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 1: to me something like that. I feel that way too.

859
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 1: That's where I started to change and become a different

860
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 1: person by connecting with other people. Okay, let's get into

861
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 1: the apples. Tell us the story with the apples. Oh

862
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 1: my gosh. So when I started my twelve step program,

863
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:51,360
Speaker 1: and when I was nineteen years old, I had a

864
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:56,239
Speaker 1: sponsor and she told me she's like you. I was like,

865
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:58,279
Speaker 1: the wisdom and twelve step program is to find a

866
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 1: sponsor asked someone who as what you want and ask

867
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:02,840
Speaker 1: them how they got it. So I get the sponsor.

868
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 1: She's this nice woman, she's a housewife, she's real gentle.

869
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 1: She seems very sane around food. So I said, how

870
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 1: do you eat? I want to eat the way you eat.

871
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:15,439
Speaker 1: And she said to me, I eat anything I want

872
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 1: in any quantity, at any time, any pace. But I

873
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 1: don't need any sugar, no corn, no flour. And there

874
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:25,920
Speaker 1: was a couple of other things on there. And I

875
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,279
Speaker 1: was like, Okay, that's it, and she was like yeah.

876
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 1: And so somehow in my brain I turned that into

877
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:35,439
Speaker 1: I can eat. I made a list of maybe ten

878
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:38,360
Speaker 1: foods I would let myself eat, and it was like

879
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:43,760
Speaker 1: turkey and cabbage and cheese and fruit, and I was hungry.

880
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 1: Looking back now, I can think to myself, maybe at

881
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 1: night I binged on apples because my body needed more food.

882
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 1: I would I would drink skim milk at nights, or

883
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:57,920
Speaker 1: I would have yogurt. But it was a very diety deprivation.

884
00:47:58,000 --> 00:47:59,800
Speaker 1: Even people who are on diets e way better than that.

885
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:02,439
Speaker 1: But at night I would be really hungry, and I'd

886
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 1: be so scared that I was gonna binge on something

887
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:10,360
Speaker 1: problematic like ice cream or bread or chips. So I

888
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 1: would buy these apples, and early on, maybe before I

889
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 1: left college, I would have like two apples at night,

890
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:19,239
Speaker 1: and I remember my roommates saying, that's weird. Who eats

891
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:22,400
Speaker 1: two apples? And I was like, leave me alone. I'm

892
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 1: in a program. But by the time I was living

893
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 1: alone in graduate school, and even when I had roommates

894
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:31,360
Speaker 1: in d C and then back to living alone in Chicago,

895
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 1: it's just like escalated. So by the time I got

896
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:38,319
Speaker 1: to dr Rosen at night, I would eat. I would

897
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 1: eat anywhere from five. One time, I ate twelve apples.

898
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:45,879
Speaker 1: And sometimes I call my sponsor back in Texas and say,

899
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 1: I just ate twelve red, delicious apples that cannot be

900
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:54,279
Speaker 1: sobriety or whatever, and she would say, did you pick

901
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,840
Speaker 1: up your drug, which she wouldn't consider, like flour or

902
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 1: sugar was the drug and apples weren't. So She's like

903
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 1: it's fine, and I was like okay, but nobody in

904
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:07,960
Speaker 1: my nobody else. She was like this disembodied voice back

905
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 1: in Texas. No one in Chicago knew I knew I

906
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 1: did that it was super expensive. And I remember one night.

907
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:16,800
Speaker 1: It was snowing, and I still, what do I know

908
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:19,320
Speaker 1: about snow. I'm from Texas and I get in my

909
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:23,239
Speaker 1: car and it's eleven thirty and I'm driving to the

910
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,840
Speaker 1: all night grocery store on Broadway to get more apples,

911
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 1: almost at midnight, and I was like, this is as crazy.

912
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:32,880
Speaker 1: This is like those movies where someone's going out to

913
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 1: get cracked. It said, I'm going to get apples, and

914
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 1: that's That was one of the secrets that that last

915
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 1: um individual appointment when Dr Rosen was like, your secrets

916
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:44,839
Speaker 1: were gonna come out. I remember walking down the hall

917
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 1: of thinking, if they find out what I eat, I

918
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 1: am so screwed. And they did. Ultimately, the that is

919
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 1: revealed and you get a prescription to make us take

920
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:57,719
Speaker 1: uh make a call? How did it come out? And

921
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:01,279
Speaker 1: then tell us about the prescription in the ultimate phone holes. Yeah,

922
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:04,319
Speaker 1: this was that. When this session went down, I thought

923
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 1: that Dr Rosen was a mad genius because we were

924
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 1: not talking about food. We I swear we were talking

925
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 1: about Rory's ferret. We were not talking about food, and

926
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 1: out of the blue, He's like, Christie, why don't you

927
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 1: tell the group what you ate yesterday? And I was

928
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 1: like my whole body was like inflamed. I'm just like

929
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 1: I felt like sweat was pouring down. I was like,

930
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 1: I can't, I can't. I jumped. I had taken my

931
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:33,000
Speaker 1: shoes off, and I jumped out of my chair and

932
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 1: I was like hopping around the circle like kind of

933
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 1: making a fist and pound punch in the air like

934
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 1: I can't, I can't, I can't, And everyone is like

935
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:43,960
Speaker 1: what is wrong with you? And I just said I

936
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:46,840
Speaker 1: just can't. I'll tell you anything, I just can't do it.

937
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 1: And then I sat down and everyone's like you have to,

938
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 1: Like the way that you're acting is proof you need

939
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 1: some help, and so, you know, I tell them the

940
00:50:57,160 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 1: first part. I couldn't look anybody. I like like grew

941
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:03,440
Speaker 1: my fists into my eyes and I'm like okay, And

942
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,200
Speaker 1: I said it real fast, like an auctioneer, like cabbage

943
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:08,759
Speaker 1: and cheese, milk. And I got to the part where

944
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 1: I told them my dinner and I paused for a

945
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 1: long time and someone's like, what is what is the problem?

946
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:17,239
Speaker 1: And I was like, well, there's more. And I'm sure

947
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:20,320
Speaker 1: they were expecting like biscuits or I went out and

948
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:22,759
Speaker 1: got more a chocolate cake and I was like, I

949
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:27,280
Speaker 1: ate some apples, five apples, actually it was seven apples,

950
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 1: and and I just waited for like the ceiling to

951
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:33,400
Speaker 1: fall in. And when I took my hands away from

952
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:36,280
Speaker 1: my eyes, oh, Dr rose And said, can you open

953
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,879
Speaker 1: your eyes? And I was like nope. It's like okay, well,

954
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:42,839
Speaker 1: why don't you try or pray for the willingness? Right?

955
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:45,800
Speaker 1: So I looked at everybody and nobody was like scorning me.

956
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 1: Everybody looked curious and compassionate. And somebody said, do you

957
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 1: think you're hungry? And I bat it that a way

958
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 1: I wasn't ready to eat differently. And then Dr Rosen's

959
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 1: prescription was He's had me look at another group member, Rory,

960
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:06,879
Speaker 1: who had her own food struggles. He's like, look at Roy.

961
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:09,680
Speaker 1: Can you call her every night and tell her what

962
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:12,000
Speaker 1: you ate? And I was like, why don't I call

963
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:13,920
Speaker 1: her tonight and I'll tell her what I'm gonna eat tomorrow.

964
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:15,839
Speaker 1: He's like, no, no, no, no no, We're not trying

965
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 1: to keep you from doing anything. But at the end

966
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 1: of the day, tell her what you did so that

967
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:22,160
Speaker 1: you can let go of the shame. I said, but

968
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:24,919
Speaker 1: what if it's like ten apples every night. He's like, great,

969
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:27,920
Speaker 1: that's what you're calling her for. It doesn't matter. And

970
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 1: I looked at Rory, like, why does this woman who's

971
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:35,480
Speaker 1: a busy professional want to hear this apple monologue every night?

972
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 1: And she just said, great, sweetie, I'll tell you my

973
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 1: food too. And I was like, she was like, she

974
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:45,200
Speaker 1: just doubled down on me. And I was so afraid

975
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 1: in the first three nights I called her At nights.

976
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 1: I just bawled afterwards because I was so scared of

977
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:55,800
Speaker 1: letting go of the secret. I'm scared of change, and

978
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:58,399
Speaker 1: I knew this was big. This was big. To tell

979
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 1: someone every day about my food. That was the river

980
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 1: I had never crossed before, and it was scary. It

981
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:06,759
Speaker 1: was scary for weeks, but it was those first three

982
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:10,879
Speaker 1: nights I was just beside myself. But it did get easier. Well,

983
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:14,239
Speaker 1: the question, obviously is twofold one. Did you continue to

984
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 1: eat that volume of apples? To do eat apples at

985
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 1: all anymore? Um? You know the volume. The volume came down,

986
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 1: but it took about and not consciously like I would

987
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:28,279
Speaker 1: go into group and say, well, I've been calling Rory

988
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:30,880
Speaker 1: about my food and my apples and I'm still eating

989
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 1: you know, I'm still at four or five six, and

990
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 1: even like it doesn't matter. It's your job isn't to

991
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 1: fix your apples. Your job is to tell Rory what

992
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:41,120
Speaker 1: you eat. So I'm my fine um and the volume.

993
00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:44,040
Speaker 1: I want to say it was maybe nine months before

994
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 1: it sort of came down to after dinner I'd have

995
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:49,279
Speaker 1: two pieces of fruits, which is as my roommate in

996
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:52,440
Speaker 1: college said, it's still weird, but within the realm and

997
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:55,840
Speaker 1: to this day, my kids love apples and I just

998
00:53:56,080 --> 00:54:00,120
Speaker 1: can't do them. I can not apple pie maybe, but

999
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:02,759
Speaker 1: not a straight up apple I have. I've eaten my

1000
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:13,640
Speaker 1: lifetime share and probably somebody else's lifetime share too. The doctor,

1001
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:18,960
Speaker 1: a typical of many therapy experiences, gives prescriptions. Could you

1002
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:21,399
Speaker 1: talk about some of the prescriptions? One is obviously called

1003
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:24,759
Speaker 1: Rory about the apple. When you're interacting with a guy

1004
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:28,000
Speaker 1: who has a boyfriend a girlfriend, could you tell what

1005
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:30,719
Speaker 1: he tells you to do there? Oh my god. When

1006
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 1: I look back at this, I'm like, you know, I

1007
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:35,280
Speaker 1: kind of I didn't have to do everything he said.

1008
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 1: But here's what Dr Rosen said. I I love this boy.

1009
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:40,720
Speaker 1: I love him so much. She's in my law school

1010
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:44,279
Speaker 1: we have like this great connection. But PSC has a

1011
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:47,840
Speaker 1: girlfriend and he's very unsuitable in so many ways, but

1012
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:50,200
Speaker 1: I just loved him, and so I knew I was

1013
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:51,839
Speaker 1: going to be going out with him in a group

1014
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 1: of people that night. So I'm in group and I'm like, ah,

1015
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:58,759
Speaker 1: the dreamy boy, and and Dr Rosen puts on his

1016
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 1: thinking face and he's thinking, and I think he's gonna

1017
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:05,480
Speaker 1: tell me something very interesting about myself or some insight,

1018
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:08,440
Speaker 1: or maybe he's gonna say I think you shouldn't go.

1019
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:10,799
Speaker 1: And then I was gonna be like, fuck you, I'm

1020
00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:14,719
Speaker 1: totally going, and he didn't. He said, tonight, I want

1021
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:17,200
Speaker 1: you to be honest with the smoker. We called him

1022
00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:19,719
Speaker 1: the Smoker. I said, okay, what should I tell him?

1023
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:24,080
Speaker 1: And he said, tell him the truth that you are

1024
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 1: a cock teeth And everyone in my group like the

1025
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 1: sucks in the air in the room, and I think

1026
00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:33,880
Speaker 1: Rory and Carlos were both like, she can't say that,

1027
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:37,440
Speaker 1: Dr Rosen, what are you doing? And I, because of

1028
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 1: my trying to please Noess, I'm like, I'm pissed because

1029
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:45,320
Speaker 1: he's given me something that I don't think I can do.

1030
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:48,560
Speaker 1: And and in the end, so we go off that night.

1031
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:50,799
Speaker 1: I go out that night with the Smoker and We're

1032
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:53,399
Speaker 1: in this cab with this other guy, and I'm thinking,

1033
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:55,440
Speaker 1: am I going to do it? And part of me

1034
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:58,799
Speaker 1: I wanted to go back to group and to show

1035
00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:02,600
Speaker 1: Dr Rosen, whatever you throw at me, I will do it.

1036
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 1: I am here to play and I had the pride

1037
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:10,200
Speaker 1: of that. And and plus this guy did not like me.

1038
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:12,200
Speaker 1: I mean he was not This was never gonna go anywhere,

1039
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 1: and I was sick of that. So I lean over

1040
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:16,920
Speaker 1: and I tell him, I said, you know, I'm a

1041
00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 1: total cock tease and like and then I like look

1042
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:23,560
Speaker 1: out the window. I'm like, oh my god, what have

1043
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:25,440
Speaker 1: I done? What have I done? Like? Why am I

1044
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:28,719
Speaker 1: doing with this crazy therapist of mine? Has said? The

1045
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:31,000
Speaker 1: other guy in the cab was sort of like what

1046
00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:34,320
Speaker 1: And the the guy that I loved, the Smoker, he

1047
00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 1: didn't really react. Um. And when I got in bed

1048
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:40,719
Speaker 1: that night, I was like, I cannot believe I did that.

1049
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:42,759
Speaker 1: But part of me too, that was part of me.

1050
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:45,240
Speaker 1: The other part of me was like I did have pride,

1051
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:48,279
Speaker 1: like that was probably an insane thing to do, and

1052
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:49,880
Speaker 1: that guy is gonna have a story about me for

1053
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 1: the rest of his life if he remembers it um,

1054
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:54,359
Speaker 1: And I was like, what if he tells someone at

1055
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:55,880
Speaker 1: law school that I said that? And then I was

1056
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:59,680
Speaker 1: just like, I don't care. I'm on my side. Dr

1057
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:01,960
Speaker 1: Roe isn't is on my side. I don't know what

1058
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:04,000
Speaker 1: it's gonna take to get well. I thought he was

1059
00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:06,800
Speaker 1: going to prescribe me some pills, maybe some trasdone, and

1060
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:08,640
Speaker 1: I would be out of there. And that's not how

1061
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:12,200
Speaker 1: it worked out. And I decided that this was like,

1062
00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 1: this is gonna sound very cheesy, but there's something like

1063
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:20,400
Speaker 1: this is fun, this is this is interesting. I'm at

1064
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:24,480
Speaker 1: least interesting now right like I've done something crazy, but

1065
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 1: at least I'm interesting. At least I'm alive. Okay. Reading

1066
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:32,720
Speaker 1: the book, it doesn't seem like in real life you

1067
00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 1: are a cock tease? Was he just saying that to ultimately,

1068
00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:39,880
Speaker 1: you know, challenge you or in retrospect, are you a

1069
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:43,160
Speaker 1: cock tease? Or were you? No? That is one thing

1070
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:46,080
Speaker 1: that I wish. I wish I could time travel and

1071
00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:48,080
Speaker 1: go back and ask him if he knows what a

1072
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:51,360
Speaker 1: cock teas is because I was not. I was a

1073
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:54,840
Speaker 1: single woman. I was by then people knew that I

1074
00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 1: did very were well in law school because by then

1075
00:57:57,440 --> 00:58:00,240
Speaker 1: everyone knew I don't know how, but it was people

1076
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:03,600
Speaker 1: knew I was the top spot, right. So so I

1077
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:07,680
Speaker 1: had a reputation as a smart girl and a driven girl.

1078
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:12,240
Speaker 1: And that's fine. But but when I think about like,

1079
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:15,240
Speaker 1: I don't I and then my heart of hearts, I

1080
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:17,600
Speaker 1: think that Dr Ross doesn't know what a cock tease is,

1081
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:21,000
Speaker 1: and I think he just gave me something provocative to say.

1082
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:24,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I do think maybe that's unfair. I mean,

1083
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:27,360
Speaker 1: that's too harsh. What I did have a pattern of

1084
00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:30,320
Speaker 1: doing was chasing unavailable men, and he was just the

1085
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 1: next and the Smoker was the next in line. He

1086
00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 1: had a girlfriend he was really loved and she was

1087
00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:38,800
Speaker 1: so beautiful, and so I think that he was trying

1088
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:42,800
Speaker 1: to break that pattern. But I do think often of

1089
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:46,960
Speaker 1: that word cock tease. I wasn't. I don't. My understanding

1090
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:49,080
Speaker 1: of the word is I was just a nice girl

1091
00:58:49,120 --> 00:58:50,840
Speaker 1: who I gave him my notes. At this guy at

1092
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:53,840
Speaker 1: the Smoker, I gave him my notes. Sometimes we'd have lunch.

1093
00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:56,520
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm a chatty person, so we would like

1094
00:58:56,640 --> 00:58:58,320
Speaker 1: make fun of our teachers. There was a girl in

1095
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:00,600
Speaker 1: our law school class who would bring her money. We

1096
00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:02,920
Speaker 1: would talk about the bunny girl, and none of this

1097
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:07,720
Speaker 1: seems like salacious. So I don't know why that word,

1098
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:10,960
Speaker 1: And I wish I could go back and excavate that

1099
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 1: and figure out why that word if it just seemed

1100
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:15,920
Speaker 1: provocative and or if he was just like saying if

1101
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:20,000
Speaker 1: I would do it? Okay, The word in the group

1102
00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:23,200
Speaker 1: is is if you're really doing well, you'll graduate to

1103
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:26,360
Speaker 1: have a second group and your goal, your goal is

1104
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:30,240
Speaker 1: to qualify for a second group. One tell us about

1105
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:34,000
Speaker 1: your desire to do that too. Aren't you thinking on

1106
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:38,320
Speaker 1: some level this is gonna be more money and you know,

1107
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:40,440
Speaker 1: we'll just sort of leave it at that. Yeah, so

1108
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:45,040
Speaker 1: what's going on there? Yeah, they're definitely And certainly my

1109
00:59:45,280 --> 00:59:49,200
Speaker 1: experiencing group is different from my groupmates. But I was

1110
00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:53,400
Speaker 1: watching and there were people in my group, but when

1111
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:57,840
Speaker 1: I started, three of the group members were in other groups,

1112
00:59:58,000 --> 00:59:59,880
Speaker 1: and I was sort of like, huh, you get to

1113
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:03,680
Speaker 1: home twice it felt like they'd been anointed and they

1114
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:06,240
Speaker 1: were chosen. Like that's a real big trigger for me,

1115
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:09,080
Speaker 1: the idea that you have someone has been chosen for

1116
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:12,320
Speaker 1: something that I haven't been chosen for. That will get

1117
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:15,520
Speaker 1: me every time. And so while while I'm in my

1118
01:00:15,720 --> 01:00:19,200
Speaker 1: first year, wrapping up my first year, one of the

1119
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:22,320
Speaker 1: guys in the group, Carlos Dr Rosen, has this intense

1120
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:25,360
Speaker 1: conversation with him and invites him, invites him to join

1121
01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:27,840
Speaker 1: a second group, and I'm like, huh. It felt like

1122
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:30,320
Speaker 1: he was going to be laughing me, and he was

1123
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:34,040
Speaker 1: more beloved, and I just lost my mind, Like why

1124
01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:37,840
Speaker 1: don't you offer me this like deluxe treatment? It felt

1125
01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:42,200
Speaker 1: I wasn't really thinking about what the logistics of that

1126
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:46,200
Speaker 1: would be or what it really meant. Um. I just wanted.

1127
01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:49,640
Speaker 1: I wanted all the opportunities that everybody else got. It

1128
01:00:49,720 --> 01:00:53,280
Speaker 1: was like super greedy like that. And by the time

1129
01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:55,840
Speaker 1: he offered it to me, there was a point at

1130
01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:58,400
Speaker 1: which he thought I was ready. Oh yeah. It was

1131
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:01,040
Speaker 1: right after I had a sex dream of about Dr Rosen,

1132
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:03,960
Speaker 1: or actually it wasn't about Dr Rosen. I had a

1133
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:08,000
Speaker 1: very satisfying sex dream, one of my first ever about

1134
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:11,240
Speaker 1: Luther Vandross who Because of that dream, I will love

1135
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:13,919
Speaker 1: forever And I go to group and I talk about

1136
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:15,720
Speaker 1: it because I see it as a symbol of my

1137
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:20,480
Speaker 1: burgeoning sexuality. My repression is going to fall away. Look

1138
01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:23,080
Speaker 1: what Luther and I did, and I was so proud

1139
01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:25,200
Speaker 1: of myself. And at the end of the dream, Dr

1140
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:28,640
Speaker 1: Rosen says, oh, that dreams about me, and I was like,

1141
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:31,640
Speaker 1: I was so offended. I was like, don't ruin my dream.

1142
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:35,439
Speaker 1: And so then we we go around and round about

1143
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:37,480
Speaker 1: this dream and whether it's about him. I didn't know

1144
01:01:37,600 --> 01:01:41,080
Speaker 1: that Freudian people or therapists always think their dreams are

1145
01:01:41,080 --> 01:01:43,800
Speaker 1: always about them, um, And I didn't really. I was

1146
01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:46,160
Speaker 1: just mad. And then at the end when I finally

1147
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:48,720
Speaker 1: accepted out, like, fine, Dr Rosen, I wish you would

1148
01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:51,520
Speaker 1: go down on me. I just gave into it. Then

1149
01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:54,240
Speaker 1: he proclaims I was ready for a second group. So

1150
01:01:54,320 --> 01:01:57,240
Speaker 1: then I was like, oh, you tricked me. You tricked me.

1151
01:01:57,960 --> 01:01:59,720
Speaker 1: But by the time he offered that, I had had

1152
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:02,880
Speaker 1: an internship with a law firm where I got paid

1153
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:05,880
Speaker 1: like big law firm books. So I had that cash

1154
01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:11,720
Speaker 1: just waiting around to just double up on my therapy. Okay,

1155
01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:15,120
Speaker 1: what is different about the second group from the first?

1156
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:18,960
Speaker 1: Oh my god, the second group was so scary. It

1157
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:23,160
Speaker 1: was so scary. It was all women. And when I started,

1158
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:26,360
Speaker 1: one of the things Dr Rosen said to me was

1159
01:02:27,800 --> 01:02:30,040
Speaker 1: I went to my first group and it was like scary.

1160
01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:31,480
Speaker 1: There was a woman in there who was like a

1161
01:02:31,560 --> 01:02:35,480
Speaker 1: buddy of mine from from the twelve step program, and

1162
01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:38,520
Speaker 1: she already like I knew her in in our relationship,

1163
01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:40,600
Speaker 1: and then I get there and she's like already friends

1164
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:42,240
Speaker 1: with everyone in the group, and I felt like I

1165
01:02:42,280 --> 01:02:45,120
Speaker 1: had intruded. I had a sense she didn't really want

1166
01:02:45,160 --> 01:02:48,640
Speaker 1: me there. And the women were just larger than life.

1167
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:53,840
Speaker 1: They were incredible and complex and loud, and they got

1168
01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:56,680
Speaker 1: into a fight and they talked about sex I'd never

1169
01:02:56,800 --> 01:03:00,080
Speaker 1: heard of, and I was I felt like I was

1170
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:02,640
Speaker 1: a little bitty kid, like a four year old who

1171
01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:05,640
Speaker 1: was sitting at the table with the adults. And I

1172
01:03:05,720 --> 01:03:07,800
Speaker 1: didn't know what I had done, and I wasn't expecting

1173
01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:09,040
Speaker 1: it at all. I thought it was gonna be this

1174
01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:13,920
Speaker 1: cozy women like a womb, and it was not like

1175
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:16,320
Speaker 1: that at all. And I wanted to leave from the

1176
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:19,960
Speaker 1: second I got in there. And one of the things

1177
01:03:20,440 --> 01:03:24,080
Speaker 1: that I thought was, why is this so different? And

1178
01:03:24,280 --> 01:03:26,280
Speaker 1: Dr Rosen said to me when I went back to

1179
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:28,720
Speaker 1: my when I went to the next week, I went

1180
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:30,840
Speaker 1: to my former group, and I was like, that sucked.

1181
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:33,880
Speaker 1: I didn't like that for one second. And Dr Rosen

1182
01:03:33,960 --> 01:03:36,400
Speaker 1: said to me, I think you have more problems with

1183
01:03:36,560 --> 01:03:41,560
Speaker 1: women than you do with men. And I protested that vehemently.

1184
01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:43,560
Speaker 1: I was like, are you kidding? Look at the way

1185
01:03:43,640 --> 01:03:45,760
Speaker 1: these men treat me, look at what I've done, blah

1186
01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:48,360
Speaker 1: blah blah. And he just like sat there, like I

1187
01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:51,120
Speaker 1: think what I think. You can you think what you think.

1188
01:03:51,200 --> 01:03:54,520
Speaker 1: But that's that's my take on you. And it's taken

1189
01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:57,880
Speaker 1: me about fifteen years to realize. I think that he

1190
01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:01,720
Speaker 1: was right. I think that he was right. Okay. One

1191
01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:04,120
Speaker 1: thing you mentioned, and it's really very interesting in the

1192
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:07,360
Speaker 1: book is being a people pleaser. You tell us about

1193
01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:09,520
Speaker 1: being a people pleaser, where that came from and how

1194
01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:13,520
Speaker 1: you made progress there. Yeah, I I wonder where that

1195
01:04:13,640 --> 01:04:16,120
Speaker 1: came from. I think it's it's some of its culture.

1196
01:04:17,080 --> 01:04:20,800
Speaker 1: Some of it is kept Texas Catholic. Being a girl

1197
01:04:22,080 --> 01:04:25,000
Speaker 1: and being a pleaser. There's so many affirmations you get

1198
01:04:25,080 --> 01:04:27,720
Speaker 1: from the world by being a pleaser. People like people

1199
01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:30,760
Speaker 1: who are trying to please them. My teachers loved me,

1200
01:04:31,520 --> 01:04:35,080
Speaker 1: my friends who were the recipients of me trying to

1201
01:04:35,120 --> 01:04:37,479
Speaker 1: please them. You know, I was always the designated driver

1202
01:04:38,120 --> 01:04:41,480
Speaker 1: I you know, I would volunteer for things, thinking well,

1203
01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:43,440
Speaker 1: if I'm the designated driver, then I get to go

1204
01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:45,760
Speaker 1: to the party and they can't leave me behind. I

1205
01:04:45,880 --> 01:04:49,280
Speaker 1: was always motivated by this fear of abandonment, and so

1206
01:04:49,360 --> 01:04:52,480
Speaker 1: it's like over functioning and a lot of relationships. And

1207
01:04:53,600 --> 01:04:55,800
Speaker 1: one thing I loved about when I got to group,

1208
01:04:55,840 --> 01:04:57,800
Speaker 1: it was so obvious from that first day when I'm

1209
01:04:57,840 --> 01:05:00,880
Speaker 1: just trying to be the valedictorian group therapy and answering

1210
01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:03,840
Speaker 1: questions about my sex life with total strangers who were men,

1211
01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:07,600
Speaker 1: and I think I was I thought that when you

1212
01:05:07,680 --> 01:05:12,600
Speaker 1: went to therapy you had to do pure excavation. What

1213
01:05:12,760 --> 01:05:15,000
Speaker 1: does your dad do, what does your mom do? How

1214
01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:17,560
Speaker 1: did this impact you? And we do a little bit

1215
01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:21,280
Speaker 1: of that, but what what happens most often and probably

1216
01:05:21,600 --> 01:05:25,360
Speaker 1: seventy five percent of the time, we look at the

1217
01:05:25,480 --> 01:05:28,040
Speaker 1: relationships that we're having in the group in the moment

1218
01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:31,520
Speaker 1: with Dr Rosen and our peer groupmates, and it all

1219
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:34,520
Speaker 1: comes out right there, so it doesn't really matter as

1220
01:05:34,640 --> 01:05:37,920
Speaker 1: much like, well, it was your mother's Swedish background part

1221
01:05:37,960 --> 01:05:40,760
Speaker 1: of the reason why you can't spend a penny, maybe,

1222
01:05:41,240 --> 01:05:44,520
Speaker 1: but what what about now? And so we would get

1223
01:05:44,560 --> 01:05:46,920
Speaker 1: into group and I remember one time I had a

1224
01:05:47,040 --> 01:05:50,400
Speaker 1: huge fight with Carlos. He had asked me to help him.

1225
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:54,080
Speaker 1: He was doing something at home, like something decorating, and

1226
01:05:54,160 --> 01:05:56,960
Speaker 1: I had a law school exam the next day and

1227
01:05:57,040 --> 01:05:59,320
Speaker 1: I didn't want to go help him, but I went anyway.

1228
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:02,640
Speaker 1: And I was so resentful and I was so mad

1229
01:06:02,920 --> 01:06:05,320
Speaker 1: and didn't he know how to test? And why didn't he?

1230
01:06:05,600 --> 01:06:07,120
Speaker 1: So we go into group and I'm getting ready to

1231
01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:10,480
Speaker 1: open my mouth to say I was so resentful that

1232
01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:13,120
Speaker 1: I did that just to please him, just because he's

1233
01:06:13,160 --> 01:06:14,680
Speaker 1: my friend, and I thought he wouldn't love me if

1234
01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:18,600
Speaker 1: I said no, and he Carlos opened his mouth and said,

1235
01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:22,240
Speaker 1: you know, Christie came over to help decorate, and she

1236
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:26,320
Speaker 1: really fucked up the wreaths and I was like, excuse me,

1237
01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:29,120
Speaker 1: and we were I was so mad. I was like,

1238
01:06:29,200 --> 01:06:31,400
Speaker 1: what are you talking about? And he was they were

1239
01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:34,360
Speaker 1: having a party and they we were stringing these like

1240
01:06:34,600 --> 01:06:36,320
Speaker 1: ribbons on a wreath and I guess I didn't do

1241
01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:37,600
Speaker 1: it right. He was like, I thought you were in

1242
01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:39,600
Speaker 1: a sorority. I thought you could do stuff like that.

1243
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:41,600
Speaker 1: And I was like, wait a minute, no, I'm mad

1244
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:44,680
Speaker 1: at you because I didn't want to be there. I

1245
01:06:44,800 --> 01:06:47,360
Speaker 1: had a test. I had a crim log exam, and

1246
01:06:47,800 --> 01:06:49,640
Speaker 1: so we got to tease it out right there like

1247
01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:52,000
Speaker 1: all like I didn't really want to be there. I

1248
01:06:52,040 --> 01:06:54,160
Speaker 1: didn't set the boundary. I didn't do what I wanted.

1249
01:06:54,240 --> 01:06:55,680
Speaker 1: So when I went there and I did a sort

1250
01:06:55,680 --> 01:06:59,760
Speaker 1: of subpar job, and and I could have avoided all

1251
01:06:59,800 --> 01:07:01,880
Speaker 1: of if I had just said, this weekend doesn't work,

1252
01:07:02,600 --> 01:07:04,440
Speaker 1: I'm happy to help you and my exams are over,

1253
01:07:04,480 --> 01:07:06,160
Speaker 1: because I would have been. But I was always so

1254
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:08,760
Speaker 1: afraid if I ever said no, I would never get

1255
01:07:08,800 --> 01:07:11,440
Speaker 1: another invitation, and not only that, then he would like

1256
01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:14,360
Speaker 1: stop being my friend, which is so immature, But that

1257
01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:17,840
Speaker 1: was me, at age, with a year of therapy under

1258
01:07:17,920 --> 01:07:20,400
Speaker 1: my belt, going to do these wreaths when I had

1259
01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:23,760
Speaker 1: a legit reason to say I can't do it today.

1260
01:07:24,160 --> 01:07:25,800
Speaker 1: Can we find some other time for me to help

1261
01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:31,200
Speaker 1: you decorate your house? It's crazy? Okay, you're very analytic. Uh,

1262
01:07:31,440 --> 01:07:34,000
Speaker 1: bubbly's got a bad connotation. But let's just say you're

1263
01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:37,880
Speaker 1: upbeat and you were very articulate. What would be the

1264
01:07:37,960 --> 01:07:42,080
Speaker 1: difference between the conversation you and me are having pre

1265
01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:47,120
Speaker 1: therapy and now we just wouldn't have this conversation. What

1266
01:07:47,360 --> 01:07:51,800
Speaker 1: I think I was so good at before therapy, was

1267
01:07:51,960 --> 01:07:55,000
Speaker 1: not seeing opportunities, so I would never have to step

1268
01:07:55,120 --> 01:07:57,920
Speaker 1: up like I would have. I would have never written

1269
01:07:57,960 --> 01:08:00,560
Speaker 1: a book. I would have just never I could I could.

1270
01:08:00,640 --> 01:08:04,920
Speaker 1: I had blinders on and I didn't see opportunities professional

1271
01:08:05,480 --> 01:08:09,000
Speaker 1: personal We just would we just it would have been

1272
01:08:09,040 --> 01:08:11,520
Speaker 1: impossible for us to have this conversation. I just would

1273
01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:15,360
Speaker 1: have blocked the opportunity. But long before we'd ever sit

1274
01:08:15,400 --> 01:08:18,560
Speaker 1: down together. But you mentioned that you were chatty with

1275
01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:22,040
Speaker 1: the smoker where you did you have the same personality

1276
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:25,599
Speaker 1: now just different content or have you become more valuable

1277
01:08:25,680 --> 01:08:29,839
Speaker 1: as a result of therapy. I've definitely become more valuable, definitely,

1278
01:08:30,160 --> 01:08:32,160
Speaker 1: But some of it, I mean, I've always been sassy,

1279
01:08:32,520 --> 01:08:35,920
Speaker 1: and when I think back to my lunches with the smoker,

1280
01:08:36,960 --> 01:08:39,680
Speaker 1: I think about, like how I tried to connect with him,

1281
01:08:40,520 --> 01:08:44,599
Speaker 1: and most of what I recall was bringing to bear

1282
01:08:44,720 --> 01:08:47,840
Speaker 1: my sass and my analytics to really like make fun

1283
01:08:47,920 --> 01:08:50,519
Speaker 1: of other people, including myself. So there's a ton of

1284
01:08:50,600 --> 01:08:54,040
Speaker 1: self denigration. And I would I would tell him like

1285
01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:57,560
Speaker 1: I would maybe by then by I was dating a

1286
01:08:57,680 --> 01:08:59,840
Speaker 1: little bit, like going on blind dates, and they were

1287
01:09:00,000 --> 01:09:03,799
Speaker 1: always they were fine in the in the real world, honestly,

1288
01:09:03,880 --> 01:09:06,400
Speaker 1: they were just fine. They weren't love connections. But I

1289
01:09:06,439 --> 01:09:08,519
Speaker 1: would like play it up and I would tell him

1290
01:09:09,000 --> 01:09:13,320
Speaker 1: about these guys and it was so maybe that is why,

1291
01:09:13,520 --> 01:09:15,800
Speaker 1: maybe that's why Dr Rosen called me a cock tease,

1292
01:09:15,800 --> 01:09:18,160
Speaker 1: because I would, you know, we would play out these

1293
01:09:18,280 --> 01:09:20,840
Speaker 1: conversations that I was always the butt of the joke.

1294
01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:24,400
Speaker 1: I was always the poor smart girl who's dating dating

1295
01:09:24,439 --> 01:09:28,000
Speaker 1: the boy who's doesn't have a wallet or camp pay

1296
01:09:28,080 --> 01:09:32,320
Speaker 1: his rent. And it was just sort of like, not fully,

1297
01:09:32,479 --> 01:09:36,600
Speaker 1: I wasn't owning any of my competence or my for

1298
01:09:36,920 --> 01:09:39,160
Speaker 1: my full self. You know. It was like I was

1299
01:09:39,240 --> 01:09:41,639
Speaker 1: sort of playing at jackass because I thought it was entertaining,

1300
01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:43,599
Speaker 1: and I'm sure it was. I mean, there's there's plenty

1301
01:09:43,640 --> 01:09:47,719
Speaker 1: of that to do, but there's it was my only mode. Okay,

1302
01:09:48,080 --> 01:09:50,960
Speaker 1: As a result of therapy, you end up having relationships

1303
01:09:51,560 --> 01:09:55,360
Speaker 1: to use. You use the vernacular, so I'll repeat it.

1304
01:09:55,400 --> 01:09:59,360
Speaker 1: You have a relationship, extended relationship, and then you ended

1305
01:09:59,400 --> 01:10:03,000
Speaker 1: by saying you're no longer gonna suck dirty dick. Tell

1306
01:10:03,080 --> 01:10:07,160
Speaker 1: us about that relationship and your revelations there. Yeah, I

1307
01:10:07,400 --> 01:10:10,160
Speaker 1: think about that a lot, and I think about like

1308
01:10:10,240 --> 01:10:13,519
Speaker 1: my I think about when I think about what I

1309
01:10:13,600 --> 01:10:17,160
Speaker 1: put up with in relationships, what I thought I had

1310
01:10:17,240 --> 01:10:21,120
Speaker 1: to do to be a person deserving of relationships, I

1311
01:10:21,240 --> 01:10:26,360
Speaker 1: think about that exact thing, and I think about, you know,

1312
01:10:26,400 --> 01:10:30,160
Speaker 1: I had a boyfriend and I loved him. I did

1313
01:10:30,240 --> 01:10:32,160
Speaker 1: love him, and he did love me, and we were

1314
01:10:32,240 --> 01:10:35,240
Speaker 1: really ill suited for each other, in part because he

1315
01:10:35,320 --> 01:10:38,440
Speaker 1: didn't want to be in a relationship and I desperately

1316
01:10:39,040 --> 01:10:41,639
Speaker 1: wanted a boyfriend. I wanted the works, I wanted brunch,

1317
01:10:42,040 --> 01:10:46,000
Speaker 1: I wanted regular sex, I wanted presents on birthdays, and

1318
01:10:46,200 --> 01:10:49,120
Speaker 1: he just wanted to play video asky video games. And

1319
01:10:49,880 --> 01:10:53,200
Speaker 1: I kept thinking, as is my way, If I just

1320
01:10:53,479 --> 01:10:56,599
Speaker 1: do it right, if I could help him snap out

1321
01:10:56,640 --> 01:10:58,559
Speaker 1: of his bunk, or if I I could get him

1322
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:01,120
Speaker 1: to go to more of his a A meeting, will

1323
01:11:01,280 --> 01:11:03,560
Speaker 1: He'll be this boy of my dreams. And it just

1324
01:11:04,080 --> 01:11:07,839
Speaker 1: it wasn't the case. And when he got really really depressed,

1325
01:11:07,960 --> 01:11:11,200
Speaker 1: like I am not proud of this, but I watched

1326
01:11:11,280 --> 01:11:14,160
Speaker 1: him like wake up in the morning, drink a cup

1327
01:11:14,280 --> 01:11:19,080
Speaker 1: of black coffee, didn't even have a toothbrush, don't know

1328
01:11:19,120 --> 01:11:22,160
Speaker 1: where the toothbrush went. The cat, his cat would like

1329
01:11:22,560 --> 01:11:25,880
Speaker 1: defecate in the living room. It just languished there and

1330
01:11:26,080 --> 01:11:28,840
Speaker 1: I'm there, right, I'm watching all of this. I'm I'm

1331
01:11:29,439 --> 01:11:32,200
Speaker 1: making judgments and thinking what am I doing here? Like?

1332
01:11:33,040 --> 01:11:35,280
Speaker 1: Why is this what I think I deserve? What am

1333
01:11:35,280 --> 01:11:38,639
Speaker 1: I doing? And there was one night where I thought, oh,

1334
01:11:39,240 --> 01:11:41,920
Speaker 1: I know how I can fix this. I'm gonna I'm

1335
01:11:41,920 --> 01:11:45,960
Speaker 1: gonna give him pleasure. And he hadn't showered in days,

1336
01:11:46,800 --> 01:11:49,759
Speaker 1: and you know, a body isn't A body that hasn't

1337
01:11:49,800 --> 01:11:52,439
Speaker 1: been showered has a lot of issues and you probably

1338
01:11:52,479 --> 01:11:54,439
Speaker 1: don't want to be that close to it. But I

1339
01:11:54,680 --> 01:11:57,600
Speaker 1: just was like gung ho, and that was really, like

1340
01:11:57,880 --> 01:11:59,880
Speaker 1: you know they say in the pro the twelve stepper,

1341
01:12:00,160 --> 01:12:03,000
Speaker 1: like that was a bottom. That was definitely a bottom.

1342
01:12:03,040 --> 01:12:05,560
Speaker 1: By the time I went to group and reported the

1343
01:12:05,680 --> 01:12:07,599
Speaker 1: first group, I was too scared to tell him because

1344
01:12:08,320 --> 01:12:11,840
Speaker 1: if you say that out loud, I I gave my

1345
01:12:11,960 --> 01:12:14,680
Speaker 1: boyfriend a blowjob when I didn't want to, when his

1346
01:12:14,800 --> 01:12:18,120
Speaker 1: body was unwashed, and he didn't seem all that into it,

1347
01:12:18,439 --> 01:12:21,800
Speaker 1: and my pure motive was to snap him out of depression.

1348
01:12:22,800 --> 01:12:24,840
Speaker 1: You can't say that in therapy and not have someone

1349
01:12:25,520 --> 01:12:27,599
Speaker 1: you know give you a side i and maybe suggest

1350
01:12:27,720 --> 01:12:30,760
Speaker 1: you take different action. And so in the afternoon group

1351
01:12:30,800 --> 01:12:33,440
Speaker 1: with the ladies, I told them about it, and they

1352
01:12:33,600 --> 01:12:36,479
Speaker 1: did react as you would imagine, like, oh my god,

1353
01:12:36,680 --> 01:12:39,519
Speaker 1: you have to stop. And it was that that helped

1354
01:12:39,560 --> 01:12:42,519
Speaker 1: me let go of the relationship to like that very

1355
01:12:42,600 --> 01:12:45,439
Speaker 1: basic thing that's like on like sex in the city, right,

1356
01:12:45,479 --> 01:12:47,160
Speaker 1: the lesson over and over again, it's better to be

1357
01:12:47,240 --> 01:12:50,200
Speaker 1: alone than in a bad relationship. But I had to

1358
01:12:50,280 --> 01:12:52,920
Speaker 1: test that theory so many times and in so many ways.

1359
01:12:53,560 --> 01:13:01,120
Speaker 1: You reference yourself is frigid? Uh were you? I think? So?

1360
01:13:01,600 --> 01:13:06,400
Speaker 1: I think that I was scared. I think I don't

1361
01:13:06,400 --> 01:13:08,559
Speaker 1: know what that Maybe that's not totally the right word.

1362
01:13:08,600 --> 01:13:11,880
Speaker 1: But when I think about who I chose, I chose

1363
01:13:11,960 --> 01:13:15,080
Speaker 1: a man who did not want to have sex. That

1364
01:13:15,280 --> 01:13:18,360
Speaker 1: tells me that if I take the focus off him

1365
01:13:18,520 --> 01:13:21,439
Speaker 1: and put it on myself, I chose a man who

1366
01:13:21,560 --> 01:13:24,479
Speaker 1: didn't want to have sex. That tells me I don't

1367
01:13:24,520 --> 01:13:27,840
Speaker 1: want to have sex. And I watched my once I

1368
01:13:27,920 --> 01:13:30,400
Speaker 1: got closer to people, and I'm having relationships with people

1369
01:13:30,400 --> 01:13:33,280
Speaker 1: in group, and I got a roommate, which was amazing,

1370
01:13:33,520 --> 01:13:36,599
Speaker 1: and this wonderful woman from law school, and I'm able

1371
01:13:36,640 --> 01:13:39,600
Speaker 1: to like participate more in the social world of my

1372
01:13:39,840 --> 01:13:45,360
Speaker 1: law school classmates, and they're talking about they're wonderful getaways

1373
01:13:45,439 --> 01:13:48,160
Speaker 1: with their boyfriends, and I can tell they're talking about

1374
01:13:48,960 --> 01:13:51,840
Speaker 1: having hot sex, and I'm just like, oh, really, I

1375
01:13:52,000 --> 01:13:55,000
Speaker 1: watched my boyfriend play computer games and I slept like

1376
01:13:55,120 --> 01:13:57,960
Speaker 1: in head to toe flannel. I really do think that

1377
01:13:58,280 --> 01:14:04,200
Speaker 1: there was a frigid be born of repression and I

1378
01:14:04,360 --> 01:14:07,000
Speaker 1: just didn't have I hadn't come, I hadn't grown up,

1379
01:14:07,200 --> 01:14:09,960
Speaker 1: and I hadn't learned how to do a relationship in

1380
01:14:10,040 --> 01:14:12,719
Speaker 1: the way that I needed in order to be sexually

1381
01:14:12,760 --> 01:14:15,320
Speaker 1: expressive and have a sex life that made some kind

1382
01:14:15,360 --> 01:14:21,080
Speaker 1: of sense. Tell us about opera boy? Do you mean

1383
01:14:21,120 --> 01:14:24,360
Speaker 1: the one I married? No? No, wasn't there a guy

1384
01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:27,000
Speaker 1: his family was connected so that he could have really

1385
01:14:27,080 --> 01:14:33,600
Speaker 1: good tickets? Yes? Yes, yes, Oh my gosh. Um that

1386
01:14:34,000 --> 01:14:38,960
Speaker 1: so that relationship. You know, by then, each relationship I

1387
01:14:39,120 --> 01:14:42,639
Speaker 1: had a harder time. I mean, each relationship got better.

1388
01:14:42,720 --> 01:14:44,760
Speaker 1: I will say that each one got better, which is

1389
01:14:44,840 --> 01:14:49,280
Speaker 1: exactly what should happen. And I was always very invested

1390
01:14:49,320 --> 01:14:53,080
Speaker 1: in well, I'm recovered and I'm in therapy, so I

1391
01:14:53,280 --> 01:14:56,800
Speaker 1: deserve a good relationship. So I started dating this young

1392
01:14:57,040 --> 01:15:02,559
Speaker 1: man and he was sweet and kind and very well

1393
01:15:02,640 --> 01:15:06,080
Speaker 1: connected and very wealthy, and that was a step up

1394
01:15:06,080 --> 01:15:08,400
Speaker 1: because I had paid rent for my last boyfriend. And

1395
01:15:10,439 --> 01:15:13,800
Speaker 1: what was strange about our relationship There were several things,

1396
01:15:13,880 --> 01:15:17,519
Speaker 1: but one was there was no easy communication. For all

1397
01:15:17,600 --> 01:15:20,240
Speaker 1: that I've learned by then, I've been in therapy, I

1398
01:15:20,280 --> 01:15:22,800
Speaker 1: mean almost four years, and I've learned how to go

1399
01:15:23,080 --> 01:15:26,479
Speaker 1: and do things and emote and have relationships. And here

1400
01:15:26,520 --> 01:15:29,800
Speaker 1: comes this guy, and I felt like he was so respectable.

1401
01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:34,479
Speaker 1: He was another one who had impressive credentials, and I

1402
01:15:34,640 --> 01:15:36,560
Speaker 1: felt like I had just go along with what he

1403
01:15:36,720 --> 01:15:39,400
Speaker 1: was doing, and like we had a we had a

1404
01:15:39,479 --> 01:15:42,599
Speaker 1: situation where this is the best example. When we would

1405
01:15:42,640 --> 01:15:45,280
Speaker 1: be intimate, he would always have to flip me over

1406
01:15:45,520 --> 01:15:48,560
Speaker 1: so he couldn't look at my face. I don't know

1407
01:15:48,640 --> 01:15:51,760
Speaker 1: what was going on. And what's really cringey about that

1408
01:15:51,880 --> 01:15:54,640
Speaker 1: whole thing is I never asked. I never had a

1409
01:15:54,720 --> 01:15:58,160
Speaker 1: sense of my own voice. And I remember I would

1410
01:15:58,160 --> 01:16:00,400
Speaker 1: be in his bedroom with my face and his pillow

1411
01:16:00,439 --> 01:16:03,639
Speaker 1: because he flipped me over, and I'm like, I don't

1412
01:16:03,680 --> 01:16:06,800
Speaker 1: want to be doing this I and well, maybe I do,

1413
01:16:07,160 --> 01:16:09,000
Speaker 1: but I at least want to know what's happening and

1414
01:16:09,040 --> 01:16:11,960
Speaker 1: why aren't we talking about it, and I couldn't believe that.

1415
01:16:12,080 --> 01:16:14,360
Speaker 1: I couldn't use my voice just to say like, hey,

1416
01:16:15,160 --> 01:16:17,880
Speaker 1: what's this about for you? Or this is kind of

1417
01:16:17,960 --> 01:16:21,800
Speaker 1: hot maybe, but what's what is this about? Do we

1418
01:16:21,880 --> 01:16:24,320
Speaker 1: always have to have sex this way? I didn't say

1419
01:16:24,320 --> 01:16:26,720
Speaker 1: any of that, and it made me feel like, the

1420
01:16:26,840 --> 01:16:29,640
Speaker 1: hell is all this therapy for it? This is what

1421
01:16:29,800 --> 01:16:32,960
Speaker 1: my sex life is? And I hung on here we

1422
01:16:33,000 --> 01:16:35,160
Speaker 1: go again because I didn't want to be alone because

1423
01:16:35,240 --> 01:16:38,240
Speaker 1: now now I'm thirty four and that's even older than

1424
01:16:38,240 --> 01:16:40,400
Speaker 1: when I was thirty and doing dumb things with men,

1425
01:16:40,840 --> 01:16:43,920
Speaker 1: and it just felt like every time I felt like,

1426
01:16:44,080 --> 01:16:46,519
Speaker 1: this is my last chance, and if I can't make

1427
01:16:46,560 --> 01:16:49,600
Speaker 1: it work, there's no other men. It's not like I

1428
01:16:49,680 --> 01:16:52,160
Speaker 1: lived in a teeny tiny Mayberry. I lived in Chicago.

1429
01:16:52,240 --> 01:16:55,599
Speaker 1: There were men everywhere. But I just had this terrible

1430
01:16:55,800 --> 01:16:58,479
Speaker 1: kernel belief that this was my last chance and if

1431
01:16:58,520 --> 01:17:00,479
Speaker 1: I didn't make it work, it was because I hadn't

1432
01:17:00,520 --> 01:17:05,080
Speaker 1: worked hard enough. Okay, talking about the end of that relationship,

1433
01:17:06,040 --> 01:17:10,200
Speaker 1: Oh my god, this was so dark, and it seems

1434
01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:11,880
Speaker 1: like when I was writing it, I was like, this

1435
01:17:12,000 --> 01:17:14,759
Speaker 1: seems like it's not real. But we're at this fancy

1436
01:17:15,040 --> 01:17:18,559
Speaker 1: club in Chicago, and or we're walking into the health

1437
01:17:18,600 --> 01:17:21,639
Speaker 1: club and his friend stops us in the parking lot.

1438
01:17:21,880 --> 01:17:24,880
Speaker 1: He like, it seems like you know people who you know.

1439
01:17:25,200 --> 01:17:26,880
Speaker 1: He was a doctor, So all these doctors all know

1440
01:17:27,000 --> 01:17:29,280
Speaker 1: each other and they're all at the same places, and

1441
01:17:29,320 --> 01:17:31,880
Speaker 1: so they're these guys are chatting and they're talking about

1442
01:17:32,040 --> 01:17:36,000
Speaker 1: stocks and whatever, hospital politics, and all of a sudden,

1443
01:17:37,320 --> 01:17:40,479
Speaker 1: the friend asked my boyfriend like, oh, tell me about

1444
01:17:40,479 --> 01:17:43,880
Speaker 1: your upcoming trip. And I'm like, what trip? And it

1445
01:17:43,960 --> 01:17:46,000
Speaker 1: turns out he had this whole trip planned that this

1446
01:17:46,120 --> 01:17:49,880
Speaker 1: friend knew about with another woman. And I'm like, this

1447
01:17:50,120 --> 01:17:52,479
Speaker 1: can't be. Is that his sister? Like you know you do?

1448
01:17:52,640 --> 01:17:54,799
Speaker 1: All those things were like how thick is my denial?

1449
01:17:54,960 --> 01:17:57,120
Speaker 1: It's so thick. I was like, well, maybe he's going

1450
01:17:57,160 --> 01:18:00,160
Speaker 1: with his sister. Well maybe that's part of a bus

1451
01:18:00,240 --> 01:18:04,000
Speaker 1: this thing to Cancun, and that's not where that's that's

1452
01:18:04,080 --> 01:18:05,920
Speaker 1: not the case. And when I find it's like it

1453
01:18:06,000 --> 01:18:08,720
Speaker 1: was snowing and it was like January, and I was

1454
01:18:08,800 --> 01:18:12,439
Speaker 1: just like, I give it, I give up. This is done.

1455
01:18:12,640 --> 01:18:14,640
Speaker 1: We're done. And I just like walked back to my

1456
01:18:14,760 --> 01:18:17,880
Speaker 1: car tell us who he was going with. That was

1457
01:18:17,960 --> 01:18:22,120
Speaker 1: a key element yeah, yeah, yeah. He was going with

1458
01:18:22,320 --> 01:18:27,320
Speaker 1: this like super hot, like hot in a way like

1459
01:18:27,479 --> 01:18:29,519
Speaker 1: I'm fine whatever, Maybe I'm hot, maybe I'm not. But

1460
01:18:29,600 --> 01:18:32,639
Speaker 1: this one who was like New York, she was super chic.

1461
01:18:33,600 --> 01:18:35,680
Speaker 1: They all knew her. She was one of those you

1462
01:18:35,720 --> 01:18:38,719
Speaker 1: know that there's always a woman who's in the boys circle,

1463
01:18:38,840 --> 01:18:42,280
Speaker 1: who's like everybody loves her, like she's cool as hell.

1464
01:18:42,760 --> 01:18:45,360
Speaker 1: And she's also she had this great hair, and she

1465
01:18:45,439 --> 01:18:48,560
Speaker 1: had this funky eyeglass company, and I'm just like, I

1466
01:18:48,720 --> 01:18:51,560
Speaker 1: cannot compete with that. And they were going to go

1467
01:18:51,680 --> 01:18:54,840
Speaker 1: off to Cancun and we give him if I just

1468
01:18:54,920 --> 01:18:57,479
Speaker 1: turned around, I get in my car, and he he

1469
01:18:57,640 --> 01:19:02,040
Speaker 1: was sort of like, what's wrong, Like hmmm. I mean,

1470
01:19:02,080 --> 01:19:04,080
Speaker 1: there were so many clues leading up to this that

1471
01:19:04,960 --> 01:19:06,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I can't even hardly blame this guy because

1472
01:19:07,000 --> 01:19:08,800
Speaker 1: look at me, Look how I look what I took.

1473
01:19:09,200 --> 01:19:11,679
Speaker 1: Look how I trained this guy to think I would

1474
01:19:11,840 --> 01:19:14,799
Speaker 1: be cool. I'd be totally cool with this, and needless

1475
01:19:14,840 --> 01:19:17,439
Speaker 1: to say, I'm proud to report I was not, and

1476
01:19:17,560 --> 01:19:19,960
Speaker 1: we did. We did break up that weekend. I think

1477
01:19:20,000 --> 01:19:22,080
Speaker 1: that was the first that's one of my only I

1478
01:19:22,240 --> 01:19:26,280
Speaker 1: initiated the breakup, Thank god, you know, I have to

1479
01:19:26,360 --> 01:19:28,640
Speaker 1: ask you may or may not know what ended up

1480
01:19:28,720 --> 01:19:31,679
Speaker 1: happening with that guy and that woman. Did they would

1481
01:19:31,720 --> 01:19:34,360
Speaker 1: get together? Did he ever get married? You know? I

1482
01:19:34,560 --> 01:19:37,200
Speaker 1: heard a couple of years ago I was that I

1483
01:19:37,320 --> 01:19:40,320
Speaker 1: was listening to a band in Hyde Park and someone said, oh,

1484
01:19:40,520 --> 01:19:42,080
Speaker 1: you used to date so and so and I was

1485
01:19:42,160 --> 01:19:44,400
Speaker 1: like yeah, and they were like, oh, yeah, he just

1486
01:19:44,520 --> 01:19:46,639
Speaker 1: recently got married and he moved to a different part

1487
01:19:46,680 --> 01:19:49,120
Speaker 1: of town. And I was like huh. And I was like,

1488
01:19:49,520 --> 01:19:51,640
Speaker 1: you know, you don't want to act too interested when

1489
01:19:51,720 --> 01:19:54,080
Speaker 1: you hear about your ex, like oh, who did he marry?

1490
01:19:54,640 --> 01:19:57,080
Speaker 1: And Um, this person didn't know. They just heard the

1491
01:19:57,160 --> 01:19:59,920
Speaker 1: fact of his marriage. And I'll confess I googled it

1492
01:20:00,080 --> 01:20:01,920
Speaker 1: to try to find out. But I don't know, but

1493
01:20:02,080 --> 01:20:04,960
Speaker 1: I certainly wish him well. And um when I when

1494
01:20:05,040 --> 01:20:08,920
Speaker 1: the book was being published, my husband said, oh no,

1495
01:20:09,640 --> 01:20:12,519
Speaker 1: what if his wife reads this and figures out it's him?

1496
01:20:13,000 --> 01:20:15,080
Speaker 1: I was like, how would she do that? She was like, well,

1497
01:20:15,120 --> 01:20:18,400
Speaker 1: what if he flips her? I'm like that was his

1498
01:20:18,560 --> 01:20:22,400
Speaker 1: problem that and it's her problem, is not my problem. Okay.

1499
01:20:22,800 --> 01:20:26,639
Speaker 1: How many years after you start therapy do you start

1500
01:20:26,760 --> 01:20:31,679
Speaker 1: to date your husband? Okay? So I started therapy August

1501
01:20:32,880 --> 01:20:36,040
Speaker 1: of two thousand one, and I started dating my husband

1502
01:20:36,320 --> 01:20:40,280
Speaker 1: in March of two thousand seven. Okay, that's a long time.

1503
01:20:40,320 --> 01:20:42,280
Speaker 1: How did you ultimately connect with him and why did

1504
01:20:42,360 --> 01:20:45,519
Speaker 1: that work as opposed to the previous relationships. Oh my gosh.

1505
01:20:45,720 --> 01:20:48,160
Speaker 1: So we worked at the same law firm, and when

1506
01:20:48,200 --> 01:20:50,920
Speaker 1: I first met him, we were paired up as like

1507
01:20:51,080 --> 01:20:55,240
Speaker 1: associates who were supposed to shepherd the summer interns. So

1508
01:20:55,360 --> 01:20:57,920
Speaker 1: what that means is we had this unlimited budget to

1509
01:20:58,000 --> 01:21:02,400
Speaker 1: go do stuff with these young Harvard and UFC and

1510
01:21:02,880 --> 01:21:04,519
Speaker 1: you know, these young kids. So we'd like have to

1511
01:21:04,640 --> 01:21:07,880
Speaker 1: organize dinners and we went to this shop and or

1512
01:21:07,960 --> 01:21:12,000
Speaker 1: this diner in Chicago that only sold cereal, and so

1513
01:21:12,280 --> 01:21:15,040
Speaker 1: what we spent a lot of time together and that summer.

1514
01:21:15,640 --> 01:21:17,880
Speaker 1: I thought he was interesting. He was single, and there

1515
01:21:17,880 --> 01:21:21,280
Speaker 1: weren't that many single people in our firm. Everybody's like

1516
01:21:21,320 --> 01:21:23,240
Speaker 1: hooked up or married or whatever. So I'm always like,

1517
01:21:23,280 --> 01:21:25,840
Speaker 1: I was always trying to make myself like the single guys.

1518
01:21:26,120 --> 01:21:28,760
Speaker 1: But I thought he was real boring. He seemed to

1519
01:21:28,800 --> 01:21:30,960
Speaker 1: talk about golf a lot, and he didn't have a TV,

1520
01:21:31,360 --> 01:21:32,760
Speaker 1: and he didn't have a car, and I was like

1521
01:21:33,160 --> 01:21:36,360
Speaker 1: what is this? What? What? Like I I didn't get

1522
01:21:36,479 --> 01:21:38,640
Speaker 1: what he was doing. And then we went to that

1523
01:21:38,800 --> 01:21:40,360
Speaker 1: we went to one of those places. We took all

1524
01:21:40,400 --> 01:21:43,680
Speaker 1: the summer associates to that place. You know, it's like

1525
01:21:43,720 --> 01:21:47,680
Speaker 1: a Brazilian steakhouse where there's just like meat. We're there

1526
01:21:48,040 --> 01:21:50,360
Speaker 1: and he told this crazy like I thought of him

1527
01:21:50,400 --> 01:21:54,400
Speaker 1: as like super buttoned up conservative. He was from l

1528
01:21:54,479 --> 01:21:56,720
Speaker 1: a Um and so I just I couldn't quite get

1529
01:21:56,760 --> 01:21:58,439
Speaker 1: a beat on him. And he told this crazy story

1530
01:21:58,479 --> 01:22:01,639
Speaker 1: about his dad's colon oskar Be and the shaving thing.

1531
01:22:01,800 --> 01:22:03,720
Speaker 1: And I was like, huh, Like he was like a

1532
01:22:03,760 --> 01:22:06,680
Speaker 1: little edgier than I thought he would have like a

1533
01:22:06,800 --> 01:22:08,680
Speaker 1: story and it was like really funny, and it's such

1534
01:22:08,720 --> 01:22:11,120
Speaker 1: a dry since if he like, I'm more of a slapstick,

1535
01:22:11,600 --> 01:22:14,120
Speaker 1: say something outrageous and he just like deadpand it and

1536
01:22:14,160 --> 01:22:18,680
Speaker 1: I was like huh. And so that nothing really ever

1537
01:22:18,760 --> 01:22:20,599
Speaker 1: came with that, although he did ask me to dinner

1538
01:22:20,760 --> 01:22:24,200
Speaker 1: shortly thereafter that I was dating. I was dating the Flipper,

1539
01:22:24,720 --> 01:22:28,120
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, I said yes to my husband.

1540
01:22:28,240 --> 01:22:30,000
Speaker 1: He wasn't my husband yet, right, So I say yes

1541
01:22:30,080 --> 01:22:32,679
Speaker 1: to John, thinking oh, this is gonna make the Flipper

1542
01:22:32,760 --> 01:22:34,840
Speaker 1: feel like, oh, I'm hot, he's gonna want to be

1543
01:22:34,960 --> 01:22:36,160
Speaker 1: with me. Maybe I will want to look at me

1544
01:22:36,200 --> 01:22:38,280
Speaker 1: when we have sex because I'm going on a date

1545
01:22:38,320 --> 01:22:41,080
Speaker 1: with another guy that didn't happen. And then I broke

1546
01:22:41,160 --> 01:22:44,240
Speaker 1: the date with John because the Flipper didn't care, and

1547
01:22:44,400 --> 01:22:46,880
Speaker 1: so John and I mean, the Flipper and I broke up.

1548
01:22:47,240 --> 01:22:49,800
Speaker 1: Oh no, before that, John invited me to the opera

1549
01:22:49,880 --> 01:22:51,680
Speaker 1: with a group of people, and I was like, all right,

1550
01:22:51,680 --> 01:22:54,200
Speaker 1: I'll go to the opera. It's January and Chicago. And

1551
01:22:54,240 --> 01:22:56,559
Speaker 1: I went to tell the Flipper, thinking he's not gonna care,

1552
01:22:56,920 --> 01:23:00,400
Speaker 1: and he didn't really care, but he did bite me

1553
01:23:01,000 --> 01:23:04,000
Speaker 1: to see the exact same opera from his parents, like

1554
01:23:04,280 --> 01:23:07,519
Speaker 1: third row seats, two days before John and I were

1555
01:23:07,560 --> 01:23:09,559
Speaker 1: going to go. So I was like, that's interesting, Maybe

1556
01:23:09,600 --> 01:23:12,599
Speaker 1: he does care, Like that's what that's recounted for love

1557
01:23:12,680 --> 01:23:16,040
Speaker 1: in that relationship. And so I went to the opera

1558
01:23:16,080 --> 01:23:19,800
Speaker 1: twice that week, same opera, two different seats, and and

1559
01:23:19,920 --> 01:23:22,840
Speaker 1: then when the Flipper and I broke up, I was

1560
01:23:22,920 --> 01:23:25,960
Speaker 1: just like, what about that guy John, Like maybe he's

1561
01:23:26,000 --> 01:23:29,200
Speaker 1: not so boring, and also maybe boring is okay? Like

1562
01:23:29,360 --> 01:23:33,040
Speaker 1: I had enough drama. I didn't need super flashy or

1563
01:23:33,120 --> 01:23:35,680
Speaker 1: fancy like what. It was just a nice guy and

1564
01:23:36,439 --> 01:23:38,880
Speaker 1: I we hung out one night with other people from

1565
01:23:38,920 --> 01:23:42,360
Speaker 1: the law firm, and he just had this like quiet

1566
01:23:42,520 --> 01:23:48,200
Speaker 1: confidence and every question I asked him he answered thoughtfully

1567
01:23:48,400 --> 01:23:51,360
Speaker 1: like and I was throwing real random stuff at him,

1568
01:23:51,400 --> 01:23:54,200
Speaker 1: like what's your religion? He was like Jewish. I mean,

1569
01:23:54,240 --> 01:23:56,080
Speaker 1: I was raised Jewish and this is in the middle

1570
01:23:56,080 --> 01:23:58,760
Speaker 1: of the House of Blues, And so I just was

1571
01:23:58,840 --> 01:24:02,240
Speaker 1: impressed by his candor and his sort of there's just

1572
01:24:02,320 --> 01:24:05,639
Speaker 1: no fluff about him. And then I think I think

1573
01:24:05,680 --> 01:24:09,559
Speaker 1: at that point, I was just so tired of all

1574
01:24:09,680 --> 01:24:12,280
Speaker 1: my shenanigans and all the dumb things I'd done that

1575
01:24:12,400 --> 01:24:14,640
Speaker 1: I was just ready just to shoot it straight. And

1576
01:24:14,760 --> 01:24:17,760
Speaker 1: I think I drew him to me and and it

1577
01:24:17,920 --> 01:24:20,280
Speaker 1: just sort of worked. I've done I've done enough work

1578
01:24:20,320 --> 01:24:23,519
Speaker 1: to know I'm not hiding. I'm not pretending. I'm certainly

1579
01:24:23,560 --> 01:24:25,360
Speaker 1: not going to tell you I'm not in therapy. We're

1580
01:24:25,360 --> 01:24:27,600
Speaker 1: just gonna we're just this is who I am, and

1581
01:24:27,760 --> 01:24:29,519
Speaker 1: like it or lump it because I'm not doing this.

1582
01:24:29,880 --> 01:24:32,040
Speaker 1: I'm not doing this not have a voice thing like

1583
01:24:32,240 --> 01:24:41,600
Speaker 1: ever again, Okay, h is he boring? Um? Is he No,

1584
01:24:42,080 --> 01:24:45,160
Speaker 1: I don't think. So it's funny when I say Dr

1585
01:24:45,320 --> 01:24:50,320
Speaker 1: Rosen's theory is if you're bored, it's a synonym for lonely.

1586
01:24:50,880 --> 01:24:52,920
Speaker 1: So now when I think, I put that through my filter,

1587
01:24:53,120 --> 01:24:57,560
Speaker 1: like I'm not bored with John, like he's I like

1588
01:24:57,800 --> 01:25:00,080
Speaker 1: his mind, I like how he thinks. He thinks so

1589
01:25:00,360 --> 01:25:02,880
Speaker 1: differently from the way that I do. So if we

1590
01:25:03,000 --> 01:25:06,240
Speaker 1: spend time together, um, which we do because we're married

1591
01:25:06,280 --> 01:25:10,640
Speaker 1: and we're raising children, I find him. I find him

1592
01:25:10,760 --> 01:25:13,360
Speaker 1: dynamic because he's not doing anything the way that I

1593
01:25:13,400 --> 01:25:15,880
Speaker 1: would or mostly the way I want him to. But

1594
01:25:16,000 --> 01:25:19,080
Speaker 1: I do not find him boring. Okay. One of the

1595
01:25:19,120 --> 01:25:21,639
Speaker 1: big points in the book is feeling good about about

1596
01:25:21,680 --> 01:25:25,160
Speaker 1: yourself to ultimately try to get a job. It's scadding,

1597
01:25:25,760 --> 01:25:30,240
Speaker 1: and you do. Now. I'm certainly where the firm because

1598
01:25:30,439 --> 01:25:34,280
Speaker 1: a good friend with Jason Flam's father's Joe Flam. Okay,

1599
01:25:34,840 --> 01:25:39,120
Speaker 1: but at this point you no longer work. It's scadden, correct,

1600
01:25:40,479 --> 01:25:43,599
Speaker 1: So I'm interested being an attorney myself. I haven't practiced

1601
01:25:43,640 --> 01:25:49,040
Speaker 1: for decades, but you know, you ultimately achieve the goal

1602
01:25:49,240 --> 01:25:52,360
Speaker 1: you set right after graduate school. Where are you at

1603
01:25:52,479 --> 01:25:56,560
Speaker 1: with practicing law today? Today? I'm a government lawyer. I

1604
01:25:56,640 --> 01:26:00,200
Speaker 1: work full time and it's after you know. It's a

1605
01:26:00,240 --> 01:26:03,040
Speaker 1: similar thing where once I left the University of Chicago

1606
01:26:03,320 --> 01:26:05,720
Speaker 1: studying humanities, by the time I got to Loyola, it

1607
01:26:05,800 --> 01:26:08,920
Speaker 1: felt like kind of not a walk in the park.

1608
01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:12,040
Speaker 1: That's overstating it, but it was like, very straightforward, what

1609
01:26:12,160 --> 01:26:14,599
Speaker 1: we're supposed here to do. I have that similar feeling

1610
01:26:14,600 --> 01:26:18,120
Speaker 1: about starting my career at scant where it was just

1611
01:26:18,280 --> 01:26:20,720
Speaker 1: so much coming at me and just thrown into the

1612
01:26:20,800 --> 01:26:23,640
Speaker 1: fire and hours and hours and hours of work, some

1613
01:26:23,800 --> 01:26:26,720
Speaker 1: of it boring, some of a document review, but just

1614
01:26:27,160 --> 01:26:29,800
Speaker 1: really just thrown in the deep end. And now as

1615
01:26:29,840 --> 01:26:32,760
Speaker 1: a government lawyer, it's like, oh, I understand what we're

1616
01:26:32,760 --> 01:26:35,400
Speaker 1: doing here. I'm supposed to do my job. I plug in,

1617
01:26:35,880 --> 01:26:38,920
Speaker 1: I do it, I go home. It's legit nine to five,

1618
01:26:39,400 --> 01:26:43,920
Speaker 1: which is awesome. Now it's it's not it's not sexy.

1619
01:26:44,120 --> 01:26:46,000
Speaker 1: It's not on the cover of the Wall Street Journal.

1620
01:26:46,160 --> 01:26:47,840
Speaker 1: But it works for me and it allows me to

1621
01:26:48,000 --> 01:26:51,400
Speaker 1: mother and to write and to you know, have dinner

1622
01:26:51,479 --> 01:26:53,880
Speaker 1: with my family every night. And how did it end

1623
01:26:53,920 --> 01:27:00,320
Speaker 1: its Scatton I had. I left there right in the session.

1624
01:27:00,400 --> 01:27:03,560
Speaker 1: I had my first child, and it was So I

1625
01:27:03,640 --> 01:27:06,479
Speaker 1: had my first child in two thousand nine, and things

1626
01:27:06,520 --> 01:27:08,920
Speaker 1: were so grim, and I came back from my maternity

1627
01:27:09,000 --> 01:27:11,320
Speaker 1: leave and I was working four days a week, which

1628
01:27:11,479 --> 01:27:13,920
Speaker 1: was offered by the firm, and a couple other women

1629
01:27:14,000 --> 01:27:16,599
Speaker 1: did it. But I could see the riding on the wall,

1630
01:27:16,920 --> 01:27:19,439
Speaker 1: which was there wasn't a lot of work to go around,

1631
01:27:19,520 --> 01:27:22,200
Speaker 1: like all the credit markets were tight, and so none

1632
01:27:22,240 --> 01:27:25,519
Speaker 1: of our clients wanted anything. They didn't want us to

1633
01:27:25,560 --> 01:27:27,360
Speaker 1: do anything, and I was doing a ton of pro

1634
01:27:27,479 --> 01:27:31,439
Speaker 1: bono work, and I could just tell I was at

1635
01:27:31,479 --> 01:27:33,880
Speaker 1: a disadvantage because I had been gone from eternity leave

1636
01:27:33,920 --> 01:27:35,760
Speaker 1: and then I came back and I was part time,

1637
01:27:36,120 --> 01:27:39,200
Speaker 1: and once things got cranking again, I wasn't gonna be

1638
01:27:39,200 --> 01:27:42,519
Speaker 1: anybody's go to. I wasn't. I just I had I

1639
01:27:42,560 --> 01:27:45,519
Speaker 1: always say I had fallen through the cracks um and

1640
01:27:45,600 --> 01:27:48,759
Speaker 1: if I had come back full bore in a different economy,

1641
01:27:48,800 --> 01:27:50,720
Speaker 1: it might have gone differently. But I could see the

1642
01:27:50,800 --> 01:27:53,240
Speaker 1: writing on the wall. So then I just that's when

1643
01:27:53,280 --> 01:27:57,000
Speaker 1: I said I should get out before before everything dry

1644
01:27:57,280 --> 01:27:59,240
Speaker 1: drives up. So I went to a smaller firm for

1645
01:27:59,280 --> 01:28:03,479
Speaker 1: a little while, and then eventually transition to governments you

1646
01:28:03,680 --> 01:28:11,759
Speaker 1: like practicing law. Well, no, I feel like I'm supposed

1647
01:28:11,800 --> 01:28:15,560
Speaker 1: to say yes. But the truth is there's I like.

1648
01:28:15,960 --> 01:28:18,559
Speaker 1: I like. I like the part of law that it's

1649
01:28:18,600 --> 01:28:22,480
Speaker 1: telling a story. I believe in storytelling. I love storytelling.

1650
01:28:22,520 --> 01:28:25,200
Speaker 1: It's my favorite thing. And whenever you're writing a brief,

1651
01:28:25,240 --> 01:28:27,400
Speaker 1: you're telling a story to the court, right your version

1652
01:28:27,479 --> 01:28:30,960
Speaker 1: of events. I like that. There's so much more to

1653
01:28:31,040 --> 01:28:33,840
Speaker 1: the practice of law. There's so much fighting, there's so

1654
01:28:33,960 --> 01:28:37,640
Speaker 1: much haggling, there's so much bureaucracy. That part I don't like,

1655
01:28:37,800 --> 01:28:42,160
Speaker 1: and that's more than six of my job. So and

1656
01:28:42,280 --> 01:28:44,759
Speaker 1: I don't like the other thing that I have found

1657
01:28:44,840 --> 01:28:47,680
Speaker 1: I have so little tolerance for. And this makes me

1658
01:28:47,760 --> 01:28:50,200
Speaker 1: think I must not like being a lawyer. Is I

1659
01:28:50,280 --> 01:28:55,680
Speaker 1: don't like dealing with all like courts where if your

1660
01:28:55,880 --> 01:28:59,760
Speaker 1: font size isn't right, your brief is rejected, or if

1661
01:28:59,800 --> 01:29:03,360
Speaker 1: you don't if you were two hours late. I mean, fine,

1662
01:29:03,360 --> 01:29:06,040
Speaker 1: I'm all for deadlines, but like, there's so much pickyune

1663
01:29:06,160 --> 01:29:10,240
Speaker 1: and judges have so much power over litigants and attorneys,

1664
01:29:10,680 --> 01:29:14,040
Speaker 1: the fiefdoms and the egos that are involved. If you

1665
01:29:14,080 --> 01:29:17,799
Speaker 1: don't like ego, you're in trouble. If you're a lawyer. Okay,

1666
01:29:17,920 --> 01:29:20,640
Speaker 1: let's use the example of a more Towels. He was

1667
01:29:20,720 --> 01:29:24,320
Speaker 1: a banker. His college professor, Yale said you should be right,

1668
01:29:24,320 --> 01:29:26,400
Speaker 1: said no, no, I gotta go for the money. Then

1669
01:29:26,439 --> 01:29:32,040
Speaker 1: he ultimately writes two books which are mega successful. So, hey,

1670
01:29:33,000 --> 01:29:37,360
Speaker 1: has the book reached or exceeded your expectations and will

1671
01:29:37,479 --> 01:29:43,760
Speaker 1: disaffect a future career plan? The book has done so

1672
01:29:43,960 --> 01:29:47,599
Speaker 1: much more than I would have expected. I had no idea.

1673
01:29:47,960 --> 01:29:50,519
Speaker 1: I had no idea what it meant to be the

1674
01:29:50,720 --> 01:29:54,439
Speaker 1: first to tell a version of a therapy story. Like

1675
01:29:54,640 --> 01:29:57,080
Speaker 1: the part of what I think the appeal of my

1676
01:29:57,200 --> 01:30:00,679
Speaker 1: book is nobody knows anything about group therapy. They just don't,

1677
01:30:00,760 --> 01:30:04,760
Speaker 1: So it's the first. And that I didn't know the

1678
01:30:04,880 --> 01:30:07,640
Speaker 1: power of that. I thought it was. I don't know

1679
01:30:07,720 --> 01:30:09,880
Speaker 1: what I thought, but I I didn't realize the power

1680
01:30:09,960 --> 01:30:13,160
Speaker 1: of that. And to have Reese Witherspoon endorsed my book

1681
01:30:13,200 --> 01:30:15,960
Speaker 1: and put her sticker on it catapulted this book so

1682
01:30:16,160 --> 01:30:20,080
Speaker 1: far beyond my my wildest dreams that I I hardly

1683
01:30:20,200 --> 01:30:23,320
Speaker 1: can believe it's even happening. And when I think about

1684
01:30:23,680 --> 01:30:25,400
Speaker 1: I keep saying to my husband, I was like, am

1685
01:30:25,439 --> 01:30:27,720
Speaker 1: I supposed to quit my job? Am I supposed to

1686
01:30:27,800 --> 01:30:31,880
Speaker 1: be writing full time? And you know, he's he's like

1687
01:30:31,960 --> 01:30:33,720
Speaker 1: the guy who's like, well, let's look at the spreadsheets.

1688
01:30:33,800 --> 01:30:36,360
Speaker 1: Let's think about this, you know. And I'm sort of like,

1689
01:30:36,600 --> 01:30:39,519
Speaker 1: my gut, my gut is telling me maybe we're moving

1690
01:30:39,600 --> 01:30:42,439
Speaker 1: in that direction. But I don't think it's not a

1691
01:30:42,520 --> 01:30:46,120
Speaker 1: foregone conclusion because you know, I carry the benefits. My

1692
01:30:46,240 --> 01:30:49,400
Speaker 1: kids need braces. You know. I don't take for granted

1693
01:30:49,439 --> 01:30:52,760
Speaker 1: that I have a decent, steady job that I like

1694
01:30:52,880 --> 01:30:54,960
Speaker 1: to point out to myself when I'm like, oh, I'm

1695
01:30:55,040 --> 01:30:57,880
Speaker 1: squandering my potential, Like what if you know, I'm working

1696
01:30:57,880 --> 01:30:59,280
Speaker 1: on a brief for work and I'm like, oh, I

1697
01:30:59,280 --> 01:31:01,880
Speaker 1: should be writing a novel or doing my next thing.

1698
01:31:02,880 --> 01:31:05,840
Speaker 1: But the truth is I wrote group while I had

1699
01:31:05,960 --> 01:31:09,000
Speaker 1: this full time job. So maybe it's part of the

1700
01:31:09,080 --> 01:31:12,200
Speaker 1: secret sauce, and maybe it will preclude me. There may

1701
01:31:12,280 --> 01:31:14,840
Speaker 1: be something for me as a writer about the compression

1702
01:31:14,920 --> 01:31:16,800
Speaker 1: of time. The fact that I don't have as much

1703
01:31:17,520 --> 01:31:20,519
Speaker 1: may make me a better writer. I don't know. It's

1704
01:31:20,600 --> 01:31:22,640
Speaker 1: up in the air. Okay, you say you're the one

1705
01:31:22,720 --> 01:31:25,000
Speaker 1: carrying the benefits. What's your husband doing? So he's still

1706
01:31:25,040 --> 01:31:27,799
Speaker 1: at scadding, But what is he doing. He left scadding.

1707
01:31:27,960 --> 01:31:31,840
Speaker 1: He works for a company. We just the federal benefits

1708
01:31:31,960 --> 01:31:33,960
Speaker 1: felt like they were too good to pass up, and

1709
01:31:34,120 --> 01:31:36,720
Speaker 1: so I've I've carried us all. But he does have

1710
01:31:36,800 --> 01:31:40,760
Speaker 1: a job. He's he's a gainfully employed person. But is

1711
01:31:40,800 --> 01:31:43,920
Speaker 1: he a lawyer still? Uh No, he works more on

1712
01:31:44,040 --> 01:31:46,160
Speaker 1: the business side. He had gotten a j D m

1713
01:31:46,240 --> 01:31:48,680
Speaker 1: B A and he likes the NBA side of that

1714
01:31:48,880 --> 01:31:52,240
Speaker 1: much more than the j D because he's a smart man. Okay,

1715
01:31:52,280 --> 01:31:55,400
Speaker 1: on the first night of Hanukkah is when we're recording this,

1716
01:31:55,680 --> 01:31:58,920
Speaker 1: you're raising your kids Jewish. We do both. We have

1717
01:31:59,120 --> 01:32:02,439
Speaker 1: both traditions and um so we get to do all

1718
01:32:03,200 --> 01:32:05,960
Speaker 1: John's families obviously Jewish, and we've got all the Hanaka

1719
01:32:06,000 --> 01:32:09,360
Speaker 1: stuff ready to go. And I personally love that. I

1720
01:32:09,400 --> 01:32:12,519
Speaker 1: don't have any bags around Judaism, and I love you know,

1721
01:32:12,880 --> 01:32:15,920
Speaker 1: all the symbolism isn't fraught for me because nobody shoved

1722
01:32:15,960 --> 01:32:19,000
Speaker 1: it down my throat. So I'm way more pro Jewish.

1723
01:32:19,240 --> 01:32:22,360
Speaker 1: But the kids also like Christmas and my family has Christmas,

1724
01:32:22,439 --> 01:32:27,439
Speaker 1: so we just do it all. Okay, So you went

1725
01:32:27,560 --> 01:32:31,000
Speaker 1: to therapy, you still go to therapy. At this point,

1726
01:32:31,120 --> 01:32:34,800
Speaker 1: it's got to be like eighteen years, seventeen years, and

1727
01:32:34,920 --> 01:32:37,240
Speaker 1: at one point you were going three times a week.

1728
01:32:37,800 --> 01:32:40,240
Speaker 1: What do I know is a heavy therapy goer to

1729
01:32:40,360 --> 01:32:45,680
Speaker 1: begin with, there's a lot of negative judgment on the exterior, Hey,

1730
01:32:45,840 --> 01:32:49,000
Speaker 1: why are you going? Be you can talk to your friends,

1731
01:32:49,439 --> 01:32:54,800
Speaker 1: see you have to stop? Have you experienced that NonStop?

1732
01:32:55,080 --> 01:32:59,080
Speaker 1: Especially now, people say to me, wait, you went because

1733
01:32:59,080 --> 01:33:02,200
Speaker 1: you wanted relationship ships and you got them, so why

1734
01:33:02,320 --> 01:33:04,800
Speaker 1: on earth are you still going? And people love to

1735
01:33:04,920 --> 01:33:08,400
Speaker 1: focus on the money I'm putting in Dr Rosen's pocket,

1736
01:33:08,920 --> 01:33:13,240
Speaker 1: which I guess I get, but that also like obliterates me.

1737
01:33:13,560 --> 01:33:16,760
Speaker 1: It oblorates what I've gotten, what I've decided works for me.

1738
01:33:17,520 --> 01:33:19,640
Speaker 1: And when I think about it, to me, I'm like,

1739
01:33:19,840 --> 01:33:23,000
Speaker 1: that's the best argument for staying. Because I had a

1740
01:33:23,080 --> 01:33:28,559
Speaker 1: certain set of desires and un unmet longings when I started, right,

1741
01:33:29,640 --> 01:33:32,000
Speaker 1: I'm still a person with longings. There's lots of things

1742
01:33:32,040 --> 01:33:34,960
Speaker 1: I want, so I don't need group now to get

1743
01:33:35,040 --> 01:33:39,000
Speaker 1: those things. And when I think about people have also

1744
01:33:39,120 --> 01:33:43,719
Speaker 1: asked me all through this talking about the book, well

1745
01:33:43,960 --> 01:33:46,879
Speaker 1: are your groupmates your friends? Are they do you consider

1746
01:33:46,920 --> 01:33:50,400
Speaker 1: them friends? And that's a really interesting question, And where

1747
01:33:50,439 --> 01:33:53,160
Speaker 1: I come down on that is, they're They're like a

1748
01:33:53,280 --> 01:33:56,120
Speaker 1: third category that doesn't I don't have language for it.

1749
01:33:56,240 --> 01:33:58,759
Speaker 1: They're more than friends. I'm friendly with them, I travel

1750
01:33:58,840 --> 01:34:01,719
Speaker 1: with them sometimes, I take walks with them, whatever, have coffee,

1751
01:34:02,080 --> 01:34:05,000
Speaker 1: do things outside of group. But they're more than friends

1752
01:34:05,080 --> 01:34:08,240
Speaker 1: because they've seen me at my worst and they have

1753
01:34:08,680 --> 01:34:13,120
Speaker 1: we have this tie, and so it's deeper than a friendship.

1754
01:34:13,320 --> 01:34:15,799
Speaker 1: And I love my friends and I can tell them anything,

1755
01:34:16,200 --> 01:34:18,800
Speaker 1: but it's not the same. They haven't seen me interact

1756
01:34:19,520 --> 01:34:23,120
Speaker 1: in a sort of a close fish fowl like experiment.

1757
01:34:23,200 --> 01:34:26,000
Speaker 1: They haven't seen me do this process and deal with

1758
01:34:26,200 --> 01:34:29,719
Speaker 1: Dr Rosen in real time. And that intimacy that's built

1759
01:34:29,760 --> 01:34:33,400
Speaker 1: up over time, that's something way deeper than friendship. And

1760
01:34:34,000 --> 01:34:36,679
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, because I've been continuously going,

1761
01:34:36,760 --> 01:34:39,840
Speaker 1: I don't know how you keep that going. I believe

1762
01:34:39,880 --> 01:34:42,920
Speaker 1: I'm capable of deep intimacy inside and outside of group,

1763
01:34:43,360 --> 01:34:45,720
Speaker 1: but I don't. I don't know how you keep that

1764
01:34:45,880 --> 01:34:48,600
Speaker 1: going without the support of a group to sort of

1765
01:34:48,680 --> 01:34:52,800
Speaker 1: go process all that. I've never done it. Okay, And

1766
01:34:52,880 --> 01:34:54,759
Speaker 1: at this point is who is one of your goals?

1767
01:34:55,200 --> 01:34:59,400
Speaker 1: Do you have close friends? Can people come to your house? Yes,

1768
01:34:59,640 --> 01:35:02,360
Speaker 1: I'm so happy to say that that is the case.

1769
01:35:03,040 --> 01:35:07,160
Speaker 1: There are if my doorbell rings, I it has happened

1770
01:35:07,200 --> 01:35:09,920
Speaker 1: where someone stopped by. A couple of my groupmates actually

1771
01:35:10,200 --> 01:35:13,720
Speaker 1: very randomly lived nearby. They'll stop by and they'll bring me.

1772
01:35:13,920 --> 01:35:16,360
Speaker 1: The other day, someone brought me a copy of a

1773
01:35:16,880 --> 01:35:19,960
Speaker 1: like at Chicago Tribune article because my book was in there.

1774
01:35:20,040 --> 01:35:21,800
Speaker 1: So like, I thought you'd want this, I'm like, open

1775
01:35:21,840 --> 01:35:23,800
Speaker 1: the door. I mean, the pandemic is a problem because

1776
01:35:23,840 --> 01:35:27,400
Speaker 1: I can't invite people in. But there's the openness in

1777
01:35:27,560 --> 01:35:31,960
Speaker 1: me that I know that they're my people and I

1778
01:35:32,080 --> 01:35:34,040
Speaker 1: can be I can come right up close to them

1779
01:35:34,080 --> 01:35:36,160
Speaker 1: with my full self, and they've done the same for me,

1780
01:35:36,920 --> 01:35:39,679
Speaker 1: and that is that is worth every penny I've paid.

1781
01:35:39,680 --> 01:35:42,479
Speaker 1: I don't care how rich Dr Rosen gets. I have

1782
01:35:42,640 --> 01:35:45,040
Speaker 1: my friends, I have my life, I have my people.

1783
01:35:45,439 --> 01:35:48,280
Speaker 1: That's what I wanted. Okay, So how many times a

1784
01:35:48,320 --> 01:35:52,000
Speaker 1: week do you go now pre pandemic which has changed everything? Right?

1785
01:35:52,160 --> 01:35:55,040
Speaker 1: We so we I zoom in for twice a week.

1786
01:35:55,560 --> 01:35:57,400
Speaker 1: I'm in one group that meets twice a week and

1787
01:35:57,439 --> 01:36:02,080
Speaker 1: we zoom in now. Okay, and are these the same

1788
01:36:02,360 --> 01:36:05,080
Speaker 1: players that they started out or what degree are you

1789
01:36:05,200 --> 01:36:08,840
Speaker 1: the life, and everybody else is new. Interestingly, in my group,

1790
01:36:08,920 --> 01:36:11,120
Speaker 1: I am not the lifer. I'm about the mid I'm

1791
01:36:11,160 --> 01:36:16,320
Speaker 1: the midlifer. There are four members, four members who were

1792
01:36:16,360 --> 01:36:19,400
Speaker 1: there before I got there, and one of them is

1793
01:36:19,400 --> 01:36:22,120
Speaker 1: a charter member. Started in the eighties and this group

1794
01:36:22,760 --> 01:36:25,280
Speaker 1: or maybe it's ninety one. Maybe it's ninety one. Um

1795
01:36:25,560 --> 01:36:28,320
Speaker 1: and so it's a very stable group. That being said,

1796
01:36:28,720 --> 01:36:31,960
Speaker 1: people do move around. We had one member quit. We

1797
01:36:32,080 --> 01:36:34,680
Speaker 1: had a group member die, which was really terrible and

1798
01:36:34,800 --> 01:36:38,400
Speaker 1: really moving and an unbelievable experience. UM So people do

1799
01:36:38,600 --> 01:36:40,880
Speaker 1: come in and out. But for the most part, the

1800
01:36:41,000 --> 01:36:43,880
Speaker 1: core of like the there's four or five of us

1801
01:36:43,920 --> 01:36:46,880
Speaker 1: who are sort of like where the where the pillars there?

1802
01:36:46,960 --> 01:36:49,400
Speaker 1: And then okay, this begs the question was this is

1803
01:36:49,479 --> 01:36:53,120
Speaker 1: this the initial group or was this the woman's group? Uh?

1804
01:36:53,320 --> 01:36:55,120
Speaker 1: Is it half and half? Or how did it in

1805
01:36:55,320 --> 01:36:58,600
Speaker 1: with one of the groups? Right? So I this is

1806
01:36:58,880 --> 01:37:01,200
Speaker 1: the third group is in the book in part three.

1807
01:37:01,520 --> 01:37:04,400
Speaker 1: It's the third group that I joined that meets twice

1808
01:37:04,439 --> 01:37:07,200
Speaker 1: a week. There's one woman who was also in my

1809
01:37:07,360 --> 01:37:09,920
Speaker 1: very first group, and I'm no longer I let go

1810
01:37:10,040 --> 01:37:12,800
Speaker 1: of the women's group when I joined the twice weekly group,

1811
01:37:13,200 --> 01:37:15,760
Speaker 1: and then once I had my baby. When I had

1812
01:37:15,800 --> 01:37:18,040
Speaker 1: my first baby and went back to scadding to work,

1813
01:37:18,439 --> 01:37:22,720
Speaker 1: I dropped the the Um, the original group, because I

1814
01:37:22,800 --> 01:37:25,120
Speaker 1: just couldn't imagine having a baby and going to group

1815
01:37:25,160 --> 01:37:27,519
Speaker 1: through times a week and working. Even I had to

1816
01:37:27,640 --> 01:37:30,719
Speaker 1: cry uncle on that. So I've been going since since

1817
01:37:30,840 --> 01:37:33,840
Speaker 1: two thousand ten, I've been going just to my twice

1818
01:37:33,920 --> 01:37:37,000
Speaker 1: weekly group. And is your husband before you met him,

1819
01:37:37,200 --> 01:37:40,040
Speaker 1: he'd been in therapy and subsequent theater as he had

1820
01:37:40,080 --> 01:37:43,880
Speaker 1: any therapy, you know what he did some before we met,

1821
01:37:44,320 --> 01:37:47,879
Speaker 1: and you know he it sounds like from his reports

1822
01:37:47,920 --> 01:37:51,280
Speaker 1: he had a very positive experience, and he's he's always

1823
01:37:51,320 --> 01:37:55,040
Speaker 1: supported me, but it's my thing, and he doesn't. I

1824
01:37:55,080 --> 01:37:56,880
Speaker 1: am happy that he would never be the kind of

1825
01:37:56,920 --> 01:37:58,680
Speaker 1: person who's like, well, I guess I gotta go to

1826
01:37:59,680 --> 01:38:01,960
Speaker 1: At that being said, I think if I ever approached him,

1827
01:38:02,000 --> 01:38:03,960
Speaker 1: it was like, I think we should go together, like

1828
01:38:04,040 --> 01:38:06,680
Speaker 1: if something came up intractable in our marriage, or that

1829
01:38:07,160 --> 01:38:09,760
Speaker 1: it seemed clear we needed some support. I have no

1830
01:38:09,920 --> 01:38:13,120
Speaker 1: doubt he would be along for the game for that,

1831
01:38:13,520 --> 01:38:16,760
Speaker 1: maybe even suggested himself, but he's not felt the need

1832
01:38:16,960 --> 01:38:20,680
Speaker 1: since since we've been married. Okay, but I've had relationships

1833
01:38:20,720 --> 01:38:23,520
Speaker 1: and I've had a lot of therapy. Well you're interacting

1834
01:38:23,560 --> 01:38:28,040
Speaker 1: with somebody who say, man, they need therapy. Yes, well

1835
01:38:28,160 --> 01:38:31,160
Speaker 1: that too, Like there are you know, that's true, there are.

1836
01:38:31,520 --> 01:38:33,880
Speaker 1: And certainly I'm a person who has a tool, and

1837
01:38:34,000 --> 01:38:36,679
Speaker 1: I think everybody's problem. You know, I have a hammer.

1838
01:38:36,720 --> 01:38:38,720
Speaker 1: I think everybody's got a nail or whatever that's saying.

1839
01:38:38,840 --> 01:38:42,080
Speaker 1: Is so a lot of times when I'll see, you know,

1840
01:38:42,240 --> 01:38:44,719
Speaker 1: John struggling with something at work or with the kids

1841
01:38:45,080 --> 01:38:49,559
Speaker 1: or I mean he's a very self reliance, very composed person.

1842
01:38:49,640 --> 01:38:51,760
Speaker 1: But every now and then I'll think that would be

1843
01:38:51,800 --> 01:38:54,240
Speaker 1: awesome if you could just if you had a group

1844
01:38:54,360 --> 01:38:56,719
Speaker 1: or you could go and work on that, it would

1845
01:38:57,040 --> 01:38:59,200
Speaker 1: I mean, I have a I believe in group, right.

1846
01:38:59,320 --> 01:39:02,879
Speaker 1: I believe that catapults me and I've seen it catapult

1847
01:39:02,960 --> 01:39:05,240
Speaker 1: me from one place to another. And I think, God,

1848
01:39:05,400 --> 01:39:07,840
Speaker 1: what if John could do that and he could work

1849
01:39:07,880 --> 01:39:11,280
Speaker 1: out this issue? And every now and then I say

1850
01:39:11,320 --> 01:39:14,479
Speaker 1: that to him. But that's so so unpleasant for your

1851
01:39:14,520 --> 01:39:17,840
Speaker 1: spouse to push therapy on you, Like I don't really

1852
01:39:17,920 --> 01:39:20,519
Speaker 1: think it's holding him back, and he's certainly I'm either

1853
01:39:20,680 --> 01:39:23,760
Speaker 1: living I'm either a living testament to therapy or I'm

1854
01:39:23,840 --> 01:39:26,840
Speaker 1: not There's nothing I can say that would be more

1855
01:39:26,960 --> 01:39:31,360
Speaker 1: compelling than what's happened in my life. So Dr Rosen uh,

1856
01:39:31,479 --> 01:39:34,519
Speaker 1: he is an m D. He is a psychiatrist, which

1857
01:39:34,560 --> 01:39:37,960
Speaker 1: begs a question. Has he ever prescribed medication for you

1858
01:39:38,360 --> 01:39:40,920
Speaker 1: or other people in the group. Yeah, I've seen him

1859
01:39:40,960 --> 01:39:44,320
Speaker 1: prescribe medication. I first got medication after I had my

1860
01:39:44,439 --> 01:39:48,120
Speaker 1: babies and I was suffering with postpartum depression, and he

1861
01:39:48,240 --> 01:39:51,240
Speaker 1: did prescribe drugs for me, and I used them to

1862
01:39:51,400 --> 01:39:55,519
Speaker 1: get through that initial period of just I don't know,

1863
01:39:55,800 --> 01:39:58,519
Speaker 1: getting through that early baby stage. Yeah, he definitely, and

1864
01:39:58,560 --> 01:40:00,320
Speaker 1: I've seen him do it for other people as well.

1865
01:40:00,880 --> 01:40:03,600
Speaker 1: How does this change? How's your therapy experience change your

1866
01:40:03,640 --> 01:40:08,240
Speaker 1: relationship with your family? Yeah? You know, I think that

1867
01:40:08,439 --> 01:40:11,000
Speaker 1: when my experience of being in therapy is that I

1868
01:40:11,120 --> 01:40:14,960
Speaker 1: became unthawed and I became realer and more of who

1869
01:40:15,080 --> 01:40:18,640
Speaker 1: I was, and that affected every single one of my relationships.

1870
01:40:18,680 --> 01:40:21,320
Speaker 1: And I think I learned how does that boundaries and

1871
01:40:21,400 --> 01:40:24,240
Speaker 1: speak up for myself? And so I learned how like

1872
01:40:24,360 --> 01:40:26,960
Speaker 1: with my siblings, we used to, you know, whenever siblings

1873
01:40:27,000 --> 01:40:28,760
Speaker 1: would talk, and we'd figure out what were you getting

1874
01:40:28,800 --> 01:40:30,439
Speaker 1: mom and Dad for Christmas? And I used to just

1875
01:40:30,520 --> 01:40:33,680
Speaker 1: go along with what everybody else said, but I think

1876
01:40:33,720 --> 01:40:35,960
Speaker 1: I learned how and none of this was like super dramatic,

1877
01:40:36,000 --> 01:40:38,280
Speaker 1: but I was like, I have an idea, why don't

1878
01:40:38,320 --> 01:40:40,200
Speaker 1: we do this? Why don't we send them to Marfa?

1879
01:40:40,520 --> 01:40:42,800
Speaker 1: Or why don't we send them to Vegas? Or just

1880
01:40:43,840 --> 01:40:47,320
Speaker 1: just having a voice in all my relationships, And it

1881
01:40:47,479 --> 01:40:50,000
Speaker 1: was mostly positive. I didn't have an experience where like

1882
01:40:50,479 --> 01:40:53,120
Speaker 1: I got into therapy and I lost my family of origin.

1883
01:40:53,360 --> 01:40:56,120
Speaker 1: Like I think I just became more myself and gave

1884
01:40:56,200 --> 01:40:59,280
Speaker 1: more of myself to them. And do they judge you

1885
01:40:59,439 --> 01:41:01,559
Speaker 1: for being in therapies? A lot of people say your therapy,

1886
01:41:01,640 --> 01:41:06,040
Speaker 1: you're less than sure. I think they're well, here's the

1887
01:41:06,120 --> 01:41:13,000
Speaker 1: thing my family is, So what's the word private or reserved?

1888
01:41:13,160 --> 01:41:16,200
Speaker 1: I have no idea if they're judging me, We're not open.

1889
01:41:16,760 --> 01:41:18,800
Speaker 1: We're not open at all. I am because I'm just

1890
01:41:18,920 --> 01:41:22,120
Speaker 1: like all over the place. But that's an important value

1891
01:41:22,120 --> 01:41:24,559
Speaker 1: to me. I have no idea what my parents think,

1892
01:41:24,720 --> 01:41:27,080
Speaker 1: or my brother or my sister. They've never told me.

1893
01:41:27,479 --> 01:41:29,599
Speaker 1: We don't have the kind of relationship where that kind

1894
01:41:29,640 --> 01:41:32,519
Speaker 1: of sharing is even on the table, so I can.

1895
01:41:32,840 --> 01:41:35,880
Speaker 1: You know, sometimes I think they must think I'm crazy, um,

1896
01:41:36,760 --> 01:41:39,280
Speaker 1: and sometimes I'm like maybe they admire me, Like I

1897
01:41:39,560 --> 01:41:42,599
Speaker 1: I really, I honestly have no idea. So how much

1898
01:41:42,640 --> 01:41:46,439
Speaker 1: do you pay for one session? Today? One session is

1899
01:41:46,920 --> 01:41:50,160
Speaker 1: nine bucks? Okay? Now you make the point in the

1900
01:41:50,240 --> 01:41:52,959
Speaker 1: book when you start, you're in law school, you're borrowing

1901
01:41:53,080 --> 01:41:55,880
Speaker 1: the money for law school, and then you borrow the

1902
01:41:55,960 --> 01:41:58,360
Speaker 1: money to go to therapy. That must have have been

1903
01:41:58,400 --> 01:42:02,320
Speaker 1: a big step. How to to take that stuff? Yeah,

1904
01:42:02,439 --> 01:42:05,160
Speaker 1: I think I just once I I went, I knew

1905
01:42:05,160 --> 01:42:07,560
Speaker 1: I could afford the first meeting. The first meeting was

1906
01:42:08,240 --> 01:42:10,240
Speaker 1: at the time it was seventy bucks. I'm like, all right,

1907
01:42:10,320 --> 01:42:13,840
Speaker 1: I'll go. Maybe he can tell me. I don't know,

1908
01:42:14,000 --> 01:42:16,200
Speaker 1: I'll just go. And it wasn't like I committed for

1909
01:42:16,240 --> 01:42:19,439
Speaker 1: a long term. But then once I understood group would

1910
01:42:19,479 --> 01:42:22,719
Speaker 1: be seventy bucks a session, maybe it was even sixty five.

1911
01:42:23,120 --> 01:42:25,160
Speaker 1: I think it might have been sixty five. And once

1912
01:42:25,200 --> 01:42:27,280
Speaker 1: I understood the cost and it was gonna be monthly,

1913
01:42:27,760 --> 01:42:30,479
Speaker 1: and I was like, I was curious, and he promised

1914
01:42:30,520 --> 01:42:32,960
Speaker 1: me that he could change my life, and I just

1915
01:42:33,080 --> 01:42:35,439
Speaker 1: felt like, well, what do I do? Oh? And I

1916
01:42:35,479 --> 01:42:37,200
Speaker 1: asked him. I said to Dr ros I was like,

1917
01:42:37,200 --> 01:42:39,160
Speaker 1: how am I gonna pay for this? And he said, well,

1918
01:42:39,200 --> 01:42:41,160
Speaker 1: you're a law students and I was like yeah. He said,

1919
01:42:41,240 --> 01:42:45,160
Speaker 1: I know other patients of mine who have talked to

1920
01:42:45,240 --> 01:42:49,320
Speaker 1: their their institutions and there's like sometimes there's health care loans.

1921
01:42:49,840 --> 01:42:51,760
Speaker 1: I don't even know. I mean, I get why he

1922
01:42:51,840 --> 01:42:54,200
Speaker 1: knew that, but like, I'm glad I asked because I

1923
01:42:54,280 --> 01:42:56,479
Speaker 1: went to talk to the dean of my school and

1924
01:42:56,560 --> 01:42:58,880
Speaker 1: then there was a way to get a private loan

1925
01:42:59,280 --> 01:43:02,840
Speaker 1: to cover healthcare expenses. And that's exactly what I did,

1926
01:43:03,000 --> 01:43:07,439
Speaker 1: and best money I ever spent, ever borrowed and then spent. Okay,

1927
01:43:07,520 --> 01:43:11,280
Speaker 1: you made the point earlier that everyone loves their therapist,

1928
01:43:11,880 --> 01:43:15,759
Speaker 1: and I certainly know from experiences there's a better therapist

1929
01:43:15,840 --> 01:43:19,519
Speaker 1: and worst therapist, and there's a fit. So my question,

1930
01:43:19,600 --> 01:43:23,200
Speaker 1: are you now like those people? My therapist is the best?

1931
01:43:23,320 --> 01:43:25,760
Speaker 1: Group is the best? And to what degree are you

1932
01:43:26,360 --> 01:43:29,559
Speaker 1: saying that? And to what degree are your proselytizer, Hey,

1933
01:43:30,000 --> 01:43:31,800
Speaker 1: come into my group where you should be in a group.

1934
01:43:32,280 --> 01:43:35,599
Speaker 1: Oh my god, no, no, no, no. I did early

1935
01:43:35,720 --> 01:43:40,560
Speaker 1: on recommend Dr Rosen, like just so convinced that this

1936
01:43:41,400 --> 01:43:45,280
Speaker 1: these people and their issues with deprivation and intimacy. They're

1937
01:43:45,400 --> 01:43:48,120
Speaker 1: perfect for group, and I would give them Dr Rosen's

1938
01:43:48,160 --> 01:43:50,920
Speaker 1: number and they would they would have one conversation and

1939
01:43:50,960 --> 01:43:53,640
Speaker 1: they would just be just it's not for me. They

1940
01:43:53,680 --> 01:43:56,360
Speaker 1: didn't like him. One of them saw him one time

1941
01:43:56,520 --> 01:43:59,439
Speaker 1: was like m hmmm, and I was so it like

1942
01:43:59,560 --> 01:44:02,280
Speaker 1: offended me, or offend is not the right word. I

1943
01:44:02,400 --> 01:44:05,040
Speaker 1: felt so like, oh, like, you don't love it like

1944
01:44:05,200 --> 01:44:08,200
Speaker 1: I do. And I just decided. Then this was years ago,

1945
01:44:08,360 --> 01:44:09,960
Speaker 1: this might have been two thousand two. I was like,

1946
01:44:10,640 --> 01:44:13,360
Speaker 1: this is not for everyone. I don't know what anybody needs.

1947
01:44:13,600 --> 01:44:17,200
Speaker 1: It is a real scary proposition to say, hey, come

1948
01:44:17,280 --> 01:44:21,479
Speaker 1: do your therapy in a circle with six strangers. That's

1949
01:44:21,720 --> 01:44:24,200
Speaker 1: that is not for everybody. That is not everybody's cup

1950
01:44:24,200 --> 01:44:26,760
Speaker 1: of tea. I have I certainly have made it clear

1951
01:44:26,880 --> 01:44:29,720
Speaker 1: that like, I enjoy what happens in my therapy, but

1952
01:44:29,840 --> 01:44:32,840
Speaker 1: I haven't recommended him in years and years and I'm

1953
01:44:32,920 --> 01:44:36,519
Speaker 1: not starting now. Then, when you did recommend him, were

1954
01:44:36,560 --> 01:44:39,400
Speaker 1: you comfortable hypothetically that someone might be in your group

1955
01:44:39,520 --> 01:44:41,880
Speaker 1: or was the rule that you can see Dr Rosa

1956
01:44:41,960 --> 01:44:45,040
Speaker 1: but not in my group. Oh my god, yes, you're right.

1957
01:44:45,360 --> 01:44:49,000
Speaker 1: I there were people who I was like, Oh, no,

1958
01:44:49,280 --> 01:44:51,680
Speaker 1: if this skinny ass bitch comes into my group, We're

1959
01:44:51,680 --> 01:44:54,280
Speaker 1: gonna have such a problem because I'll be so jealous

1960
01:44:54,360 --> 01:44:56,800
Speaker 1: of her that what I do think that some of

1961
01:44:56,840 --> 01:45:00,439
Speaker 1: that calculus early on was thinking, Oh, if some really

1962
01:45:00,600 --> 01:45:03,639
Speaker 1: pretty girl comes into group and he's younger than I am,

1963
01:45:03,880 --> 01:45:07,479
Speaker 1: and just that would just get very complicated. So that's

1964
01:45:07,560 --> 01:45:10,760
Speaker 1: probably another reason I hadn't really totally consciously thought of that.

1965
01:45:10,880 --> 01:45:12,920
Speaker 1: But I don't want some of these jokers showing up

1966
01:45:12,960 --> 01:45:15,839
Speaker 1: in my group, and I don't get to say, Okay,

1967
01:45:16,080 --> 01:45:18,639
Speaker 1: there's another thing you bring up in the book. Your

1968
01:45:18,800 --> 01:45:23,440
Speaker 1: anger where you're throwing and breaking dishes. Was that situational

1969
01:45:23,720 --> 01:45:27,120
Speaker 1: or did you have underlying anger issues that Dr Rosen

1970
01:45:27,200 --> 01:45:31,080
Speaker 1: in the group helped you with. I think both. I

1971
01:45:31,160 --> 01:45:34,080
Speaker 1: think it was situational and I think I had pent up.

1972
01:45:34,600 --> 01:45:37,200
Speaker 1: When I look back now and think about what Bulimia

1973
01:45:37,320 --> 01:45:42,800
Speaker 1: really was, I think it was rage and like, that's

1974
01:45:42,800 --> 01:45:45,519
Speaker 1: such a violent thing to do, to make yourself throw up,

1975
01:45:45,560 --> 01:45:47,560
Speaker 1: And I think, oh, in my mind, I feel like

1976
01:45:47,640 --> 01:45:50,760
Speaker 1: that's rage. And so I think all my life I

1977
01:45:50,960 --> 01:45:54,479
Speaker 1: had swallowed anger. I had the idea that good girls

1978
01:45:54,520 --> 01:45:58,040
Speaker 1: aren't angry. And don't make mom and dad mad, and

1979
01:45:58,200 --> 01:46:01,080
Speaker 1: try to be a good girl. And I had all these,

1980
01:46:01,439 --> 01:46:04,080
Speaker 1: all these reasons not to feel anger. And I think

1981
01:46:04,080 --> 01:46:06,760
Speaker 1: a lot of women have it, and since being in group,

1982
01:46:06,880 --> 01:46:08,920
Speaker 1: I've learned a lot of men have it too. It's

1983
01:46:09,160 --> 01:46:11,600
Speaker 1: very hard to know what to do with anger. I

1984
01:46:11,760 --> 01:46:14,439
Speaker 1: had no idea, and so by the time I got

1985
01:46:14,520 --> 01:46:17,280
Speaker 1: to group, and I had all this support and feelings

1986
01:46:17,320 --> 01:46:21,120
Speaker 1: were encouraged and celebrated and lauded by the time I

1987
01:46:21,200 --> 01:46:23,760
Speaker 1: got there and some of it eked out. Then I

1988
01:46:23,840 --> 01:46:26,880
Speaker 1: just couldn't stop the flood, which is a really great thing,

1989
01:46:27,000 --> 01:46:31,280
Speaker 1: but really terrifying. It was very explosive. Okay, so now

1990
01:46:31,400 --> 01:46:35,200
Speaker 1: your book is both published and successful. The nature of

1991
01:46:35,320 --> 01:46:39,200
Speaker 1: having a project with a company is they set up interviews.

1992
01:46:39,640 --> 01:46:43,479
Speaker 1: As something becomes successful, there's further interactions. Some is just

1993
01:46:43,640 --> 01:46:46,000
Speaker 1: hit and run. You get a one three minute segment

1994
01:46:46,080 --> 01:46:50,040
Speaker 1: on TV. Forget that. Generally speaking, the people you've been

1995
01:46:50,160 --> 01:46:54,200
Speaker 1: interacting with promoting the book, do they get you or it?

1996
01:46:54,880 --> 01:46:57,200
Speaker 1: Do they want to go deep? Did they not understand it?

1997
01:46:58,920 --> 01:47:02,599
Speaker 1: You know what, that's a great question what I learned

1998
01:47:02,680 --> 01:47:04,600
Speaker 1: early on. I remember talking about this in group. I

1999
01:47:04,720 --> 01:47:07,360
Speaker 1: was like, oh, my God, everyone has their own agenda.

2000
01:47:08,439 --> 01:47:10,680
Speaker 1: Everyone in the group is laughing like yeah, Like some

2001
01:47:10,840 --> 01:47:13,160
Speaker 1: people when I talked to them about the book, maybe

2002
01:47:13,200 --> 01:47:15,560
Speaker 1: we'll talk for thirty minutes, and they seem to just

2003
01:47:15,680 --> 01:47:18,360
Speaker 1: think it's a book about eating disorders. And I'm fine

2004
01:47:18,439 --> 01:47:20,960
Speaker 1: to go there. There's plenty and there's plenty of material,

2005
01:47:21,760 --> 01:47:25,200
Speaker 1: but I don't think of it as an eating disorder book. Um.

2006
01:47:25,280 --> 01:47:26,800
Speaker 1: And then I always talk to someone else and they

2007
01:47:26,840 --> 01:47:30,040
Speaker 1: would they wanted to talk all about privacy and privacy

2008
01:47:30,120 --> 01:47:34,400
Speaker 1: and privacy because they were interested in all the complicated

2009
01:47:34,439 --> 01:47:39,920
Speaker 1: privacy parts. And so I do think that people people

2010
01:47:39,960 --> 01:47:43,120
Speaker 1: are obviously projecting into any book they read, but certainly

2011
01:47:43,240 --> 01:47:46,320
Speaker 1: something about therapy. People who have had therapy, people have

2012
01:47:46,560 --> 01:47:50,200
Speaker 1: such strong feelings about therapy and their therapists. I think

2013
01:47:50,240 --> 01:47:52,320
Speaker 1: it might make this book a little bit right for

2014
01:47:52,479 --> 01:47:56,080
Speaker 1: lots of extra projection and a lot. A lot of

2015
01:47:56,160 --> 01:48:00,240
Speaker 1: times I get questions where the person seems to already

2016
01:48:00,280 --> 01:48:03,040
Speaker 1: know the answer, and I can tell they're just not quite,

2017
01:48:03,800 --> 01:48:06,400
Speaker 1: like when they're asking me about, oh, you wrote all

2018
01:48:06,439 --> 01:48:09,080
Speaker 1: about your groupmates, and I was like, well, actually I

2019
01:48:09,320 --> 01:48:13,120
Speaker 1: didn't write all about my groupmates. I wrote about I

2020
01:48:13,400 --> 01:48:16,800
Speaker 1: didn't use composite characters. But I used my groupmates. But

2021
01:48:16,840 --> 01:48:18,600
Speaker 1: I didn't tell why they were in therapy or what

2022
01:48:18,720 --> 01:48:20,640
Speaker 1: they were doing. I said what they did for me

2023
01:48:20,840 --> 01:48:24,320
Speaker 1: in my story, and that maybe that's obscured in the

2024
01:48:24,520 --> 01:48:27,920
Speaker 1: in the narrative, but to those people, I'm just like, no, No,

2025
01:48:28,320 --> 01:48:30,719
Speaker 1: that's not anybody's real name, and that's not their story.

2026
01:48:30,840 --> 01:48:33,880
Speaker 1: It's my story and what they gave me. And have

2027
01:48:34,000 --> 01:48:37,760
Speaker 1: you heard from readers. Yeah, I've heard from readers, and

2028
01:48:37,840 --> 01:48:41,880
Speaker 1: I'm really so moved. I'm a huge reader myself, and

2029
01:48:42,040 --> 01:48:45,559
Speaker 1: I've only reached out, like I've sent three tweets thanking

2030
01:48:46,160 --> 01:48:50,040
Speaker 1: authors for their for their work. I've never written long

2031
01:48:50,280 --> 01:48:53,800
Speaker 1: letters or d m s or whatever to authors, and

2032
01:48:54,560 --> 01:48:57,320
Speaker 1: people have really told me really beautiful things about their

2033
01:48:57,360 --> 01:49:00,400
Speaker 1: own life and what my story mento them. And it

2034
01:49:00,520 --> 01:49:04,200
Speaker 1: has bowled me over. And I feel really lucky and

2035
01:49:04,320 --> 01:49:08,040
Speaker 1: really humble that that that it could omit this to somebody.

2036
01:49:08,880 --> 01:49:13,120
Speaker 1: And has your success change your personal interactions? Once again,

2037
01:49:13,160 --> 01:49:16,040
Speaker 1: it's covid era with the outside, and has it changed

2038
01:49:16,080 --> 01:49:20,880
Speaker 1: your interactions with the group, because it obviously is. Having

2039
01:49:20,920 --> 01:49:25,919
Speaker 1: a success would, and a public success would affect people's

2040
01:49:25,960 --> 01:49:29,000
Speaker 1: perception of your status in addition, your own personal assessment

2041
01:49:29,040 --> 01:49:33,240
Speaker 1: of your status. Yeah, I think that the outside of group,

2042
01:49:33,320 --> 01:49:36,360
Speaker 1: I have no idea because I never see anybody, although

2043
01:49:36,640 --> 01:49:39,240
Speaker 1: I have. You know, sometimes my friends will text me

2044
01:49:40,240 --> 01:49:41,840
Speaker 1: and they'll say, oh, I don't want to bother you.

2045
01:49:42,000 --> 01:49:44,680
Speaker 1: I know you're busy being famous, like or they're like,

2046
01:49:44,720 --> 01:49:47,080
Speaker 1: I saw a picture of Reef Witherspoon holding your book,

2047
01:49:47,720 --> 01:49:50,160
Speaker 1: Sorry to bother you, And I'm like, no, I still

2048
01:49:50,200 --> 01:49:53,040
Speaker 1: want to hear about the construction of your mudroom or

2049
01:49:53,479 --> 01:49:56,680
Speaker 1: what kind of cookies you're making to get through covid um.

2050
01:49:56,960 --> 01:50:00,639
Speaker 1: But that's been like little tiny ripples um. But in group,

2051
01:50:01,240 --> 01:50:05,920
Speaker 1: it's been very interesting because I all the issues that

2052
01:50:06,000 --> 01:50:08,679
Speaker 1: I'm bringing these days really are related to the book,

2053
01:50:08,800 --> 01:50:11,920
Speaker 1: like oh my gosh, some trolls that x y Z

2054
01:50:12,080 --> 01:50:15,880
Speaker 1: to me, or I'm going on Canadian television tomorrow. And

2055
01:50:16,400 --> 01:50:18,360
Speaker 1: I keep thinking that the group is going to have

2056
01:50:18,479 --> 01:50:21,280
Speaker 1: a backlash, like oh my god, shut up about your book,

2057
01:50:21,720 --> 01:50:24,559
Speaker 1: but they just continue to be like study and loving

2058
01:50:24,920 --> 01:50:28,760
Speaker 1: and um. The book is now a part of our

2059
01:50:28,880 --> 01:50:32,479
Speaker 1: group because it has affected all of us, and I'm

2060
01:50:32,560 --> 01:50:35,840
Speaker 1: the mouthpiece for this process that we're still engaged in.

2061
01:50:36,400 --> 01:50:38,439
Speaker 1: And it's been really and they've all read the book,

2062
01:50:38,479 --> 01:50:40,400
Speaker 1: and they've known about it since I started writing it

2063
01:50:40,560 --> 01:50:42,960
Speaker 1: five years ago. So in some ways it feels like

2064
01:50:43,000 --> 01:50:45,800
Speaker 1: a group project, and it's it's as much a part

2065
01:50:45,840 --> 01:50:48,920
Speaker 1: of our group and the the fabric of the group

2066
01:50:49,200 --> 01:50:51,759
Speaker 1: as members who have left that we still talk about

2067
01:50:52,120 --> 01:50:56,160
Speaker 1: or things that have happened. It's like an artifact from

2068
01:50:56,240 --> 01:50:59,800
Speaker 1: and of the group. And what did Dr Rosen say

2069
01:51:00,000 --> 01:51:04,639
Speaker 1: out the book? If anything, he said, he's always been

2070
01:51:04,800 --> 01:51:08,880
Speaker 1: very encouraging. One of the first things I said was, well,

2071
01:51:08,960 --> 01:51:11,400
Speaker 1: I should do some research on like the history of

2072
01:51:11,479 --> 01:51:15,080
Speaker 1: group therapy and I don't know theoretic underpinnings of what

2073
01:51:15,200 --> 01:51:17,040
Speaker 1: we do here. And he was like, don't do that,

2074
01:51:17,600 --> 01:51:19,920
Speaker 1: and I was like why. It's like, just tell your story.

2075
01:51:20,680 --> 01:51:22,799
Speaker 1: Tell your story and don't try to be a scientist

2076
01:51:22,880 --> 01:51:24,800
Speaker 1: about it, which I think was very good advice. That's

2077
01:51:24,840 --> 01:51:26,760
Speaker 1: one of the great things about the book. Yeah, yeah,

2078
01:51:26,920 --> 01:51:29,000
Speaker 1: Like I what would it would just be so different

2079
01:51:29,040 --> 01:51:32,800
Speaker 1: and that's not my lane anyway, and when so he

2080
01:51:32,960 --> 01:51:35,040
Speaker 1: read it all along, and I asked him to read

2081
01:51:35,080 --> 01:51:36,760
Speaker 1: it when we sold it, and I said, can you

2082
01:51:36,880 --> 01:51:40,320
Speaker 1: please read this as the therapist of all the characters

2083
01:51:40,400 --> 01:51:42,960
Speaker 1: in the book to be sure that I haven't crossed

2084
01:51:42,960 --> 01:51:46,639
Speaker 1: a line or just protect your patients and what I've

2085
01:51:46,680 --> 01:51:49,040
Speaker 1: done in this book. And so he did that reading

2086
01:51:49,120 --> 01:51:50,960
Speaker 1: for me, and he gave me a couple of pieces

2087
01:51:51,000 --> 01:51:54,960
Speaker 1: of feedback. Interestingly, none of them about my groupmates, um,

2088
01:51:55,280 --> 01:51:57,400
Speaker 1: two of them. Like one of them just about my parents,

2089
01:51:57,520 --> 01:51:59,320
Speaker 1: like are you sure you want to say you live

2090
01:51:59,360 --> 01:52:03,240
Speaker 1: in Dallas? I'm like, okay, why why? Who do who cares?

2091
01:52:03,800 --> 01:52:07,360
Speaker 1: I'm not from Houston? And so then, um, when the

2092
01:52:07,400 --> 01:52:09,880
Speaker 1: book was coming out some one day, so this would

2093
01:52:09,880 --> 01:52:11,879
Speaker 1: have been like in August. The book came out in October.

2094
01:52:12,200 --> 01:52:15,360
Speaker 1: One of the groupmates said, hey, Christie, asked Dr Rose

2095
01:52:15,400 --> 01:52:18,200
Speaker 1: and how he feels about your book? And I was like, oh,

2096
01:52:18,439 --> 01:52:20,439
Speaker 1: so I was like, how do you feel about my book?

2097
01:52:21,040 --> 01:52:23,680
Speaker 1: And he he did his like therapeutic sighing and like

2098
01:52:24,760 --> 01:52:29,040
Speaker 1: I feel I feel happy, I feel grateful, and I

2099
01:52:29,160 --> 01:52:33,240
Speaker 1: feel proud. And that was like, that was like a

2100
01:52:33,320 --> 01:52:35,519
Speaker 1: really great moment. I was really glad that my groupmate

2101
01:52:35,600 --> 01:52:38,840
Speaker 1: prompted me. And somebody said, asked him how he feels,

2102
01:52:38,880 --> 01:52:40,880
Speaker 1: like what if this becomes a movie? Asked him how

2103
01:52:40,920 --> 01:52:43,240
Speaker 1: he feels about that? So like, okay, how do you

2104
01:52:43,280 --> 01:52:45,760
Speaker 1: feel about the prospect of this ever being a movie.

2105
01:52:45,800 --> 01:52:48,240
Speaker 1: I mean, this isn't all theoretical, right, And he said

2106
01:52:48,360 --> 01:52:52,280
Speaker 1: I feel happy and I feel scared. So I was like,

2107
01:52:53,000 --> 01:52:57,960
Speaker 1: me too. And since it's a line with Wes Witherspoon, uh,

2108
01:52:59,160 --> 01:53:02,759
Speaker 1: traditionally she makes movies. Will there be a potential movies

2109
01:53:02,840 --> 01:53:06,120
Speaker 1: or a movie in development? There's not a movie in development.

2110
01:53:06,240 --> 01:53:09,479
Speaker 1: But I certainly feel like, you know, this has already

2111
01:53:09,600 --> 01:53:12,240
Speaker 1: shot me into the solar system beyond my dreams. As

2112
01:53:12,280 --> 01:53:14,120
Speaker 1: I said, so, I'm like every now and then, I'm

2113
01:53:14,160 --> 01:53:17,240
Speaker 1: like I let myself dream, like, ah, wow, well who

2114
01:53:17,320 --> 01:53:19,320
Speaker 1: could play me? I was on some webinar and someone

2115
01:53:19,400 --> 01:53:21,880
Speaker 1: was like, everybody hood in the chat who you think

2116
01:53:21,920 --> 01:53:25,040
Speaker 1: could play Christie? And people were saying like Sandra Bullock

2117
01:53:25,160 --> 01:53:27,920
Speaker 1: and Julia Roberts, And I was like, that's so fun

2118
01:53:28,000 --> 01:53:30,720
Speaker 1: to think about, Like I think, I think seven year

2119
01:53:30,760 --> 01:53:34,120
Speaker 1: old Who's lost is not the best role for Julia Roberts,

2120
01:53:34,200 --> 01:53:37,720
Speaker 1: but it's fun to dream about. Okay, Christie, this has

2121
01:53:37,760 --> 01:53:40,200
Speaker 1: been wonderful. I could talk to you for days more.

2122
01:53:40,720 --> 01:53:43,439
Speaker 1: These are the real issues as opposed to you know,

2123
01:53:43,640 --> 01:53:48,640
Speaker 1: possessions or status, etcetera. So thanks so much for coming up.

2124
01:53:49,080 --> 01:53:52,679
Speaker 1: Thanks for everything I appreciate being here. Okay, till next time.

2125
01:53:52,800 --> 01:53:54,040
Speaker 1: This is Bob left six