Speaker 1: The coronavirus isn't just inside us, it's also out in
Speaker 1: the environment. But today I'm Parts Pavilion. We'll explain why
Speaker 1: I believe it or not. That's actually good news. Hello,
Speaker 1: and welcome back once again to Parts Pervilion, the environmental
Speaker 1: podcast from Bloomberg Law. I'm your host, David Schultz. There
Speaker 1: have been a lot of big stories that have come
Speaker 1: out of the pandemic crisis, but one of the biggest
Speaker 1: has to be the issue of testing. We here in
Speaker 1: the US are nearly three months into this thing, and
Speaker 1: it seems like we still haven't totally figured out how
Speaker 1: to effectively test everyone who needs to be tested. Even
Speaker 1: figuring out who needs to be tested is still an issue.
Speaker 1: But maybe that's because we're thinking about this too narrowly.
Speaker 1: What if instead of testing people, we tested other things.
Speaker 1: I think you see where I'm going with this. The
Speaker 1: coronavirus exists out in the environment, in water, soil, even air.
Speaker 1: What if we could develop methods to do environmental testing
Speaker 1: that could give scientists a huge level of insight into
Speaker 1: where the virus is now and where it may be.
Speaker 1: And according to reporting from Sylvia Carrig, then scientists are
Speaker 1: asking the EPA to get on this issue and develop
Speaker 1: a standard method to do environmental testing of coronavirus, and
Speaker 1: Sylvia joins us today. Sylvia, Hello, Hi David. So obviously,
Speaker 1: when we're talking about the coronavirus, there's a ton that
Speaker 1: we don't know, so that's going to be a big
Speaker 1: caveat for this whole episode. But is it possible to
Speaker 1: test for the presidence of coronavirus in the environment? Can
Speaker 1: you actually take an air sample and find out how
Speaker 1: much coronavirus is in the air? Say so, eventually we
Speaker 1: will be able to Generally, when I think about the environment,
Speaker 1: I think about like forests and streams and lakes. But
Speaker 1: EPA also regulates parts of the built environment, like indoor
Speaker 1: air and sewage, where it's more likely for this virus
Speaker 1: to be found. So there's already been some research done
Speaker 1: on things like aerosols, like what happens when you sneeze
Speaker 1: and the drop let's go out into the air. But
Speaker 1: EPA's science advisors are pushing the agency to test things
Speaker 1: like indoor air and whether it can spread through an
Speaker 1: air conditioning system or a heating system, So that'll be
Speaker 1: good to know, Like, for example, when we reopen schools workplaces.
Speaker 1: Are we able to test for that? Yeah, that's such
Speaker 1: an overlooked area of work that EPA does. I feel
Speaker 1: like the office that covers indoor air is such a
Speaker 1: you know, gets you know, such short shrift. But they
Speaker 1: do a lot of really cool stuff, like with they
Speaker 1: do radon and you know, I think they also handle
Speaker 1: Legionaire's disease and things where there's environmental polludance in buildings
Speaker 1: in the built environment, and so that's it sounds like
Speaker 1: that's where they're really focused right now. That's true, And
Speaker 1: like you mentioned Legionaire's disease, there is some precedent for
Speaker 1: EPA testing for viruses, like, for example, they worked on
Speaker 1: some of the anthrax issues that we had years ago,
Speaker 1: so there's sort of a baseline there for them to
Speaker 1: work from. But they haven't had to work with this
Speaker 1: kind of virus yet. So we're talking about testing for
Speaker 1: the coronavirus in buildings in offices, which you know, I'm
Speaker 1: all for since I live in a building and work
Speaker 1: in an office, or I used to at least. But
Speaker 1: let's talk about sewage. That's something that I think people
Speaker 1: have been talking about, like is it possible to do
Speaker 1: sampling at water treatment plants and find out like where
Speaker 1: the coronavirus is depending on what people are flushing down
Speaker 1: their toilets. Is that a real thing? Is that something
Speaker 1: that is even possible or and what is the EPA
Speaker 1: is involvement in that. EPA is working on it. They
Speaker 1: haven't figured it out yet. They're working on a test
Speaker 1: that can find the virus inn untreated sewage, so whatever
Speaker 1: is just coming from your toilet out into the sewer system.
Speaker 1: The EPA is hoping that kind of test could be
Speaker 1: used to determine the spread of the virus through a
Speaker 1: specific postulation over time. So if they're able to effectively
Speaker 1: track that, that could essentially act as an early warning
Speaker 1: system to just determine if the number of cases is
Speaker 1: trending up, for example. Yeah, that would be amazing, but
Speaker 1: like I just have to it's so hard because there's
Speaker 1: so much stuff that goes into toilets. Yes, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. It's true, it's also storm water. It's
Speaker 1: also you know, run off from you know, farms or streets,
Speaker 1: and so it's like there's just so much stuff in
Speaker 1: there that it would seem like it would be hard
Speaker 1: to isolate the coronavirus and test. It sounds like they're
Speaker 1: working on it. They are working on it, that's true. Well,
Speaker 1: that's good, But it sounds like the EPA is working
Speaker 1: on a lot of stuff. And so we're going to
Speaker 1: take a quick break, and when we come back, we're
Speaker 1: going to be talking about the EPA's priorities here and
Speaker 1: whether they are shifting to focus on the coronavirus or
Speaker 1: whether they have a lot of other stuff they need
Speaker 1: to be keeping an eye on. So stay with us,
Speaker 1: we'll be right back. All right, we're back, and we're
Speaker 1: here with Sylvia Kragnan, and we're talking about how the
Speaker 1: EPA can make it easier to detect the coronavirus in
Speaker 1: the environment. So what exactly is the EPA doing. You
Speaker 1: mentioned they're working on it. They're working on ways to
Speaker 1: detect coronavirus in buildings and in offices and maybe even
Speaker 1: in sewage. What exactly were they doing? So they're working
Speaker 1: on a variety of things, including those tests that we mentioned.
Speaker 1: They're also looking at potential long term disinfectants, so if
Speaker 1: you touch a surface, there will still be some disinfectant
Speaker 1: there that is effective. So we're not talking about just
Speaker 1: like bleach like stuff that lasts a lot longer than that. Right, So,
Speaker 1: especially in systems like the New York City Subway or
Speaker 1: the DC Metro, if they want to have trains that
Speaker 1: can run all day and still be safe for people
Speaker 1: to use, they're going to need something that works a
Speaker 1: little bit longer than a couple hours. They're going to
Speaker 1: need something that poplab books like at least all day.
Speaker 1: So that's one of the places where the EPA is
Speaker 1: stepping in. But the EPA Science Advisors think the best
Speaker 1: way for EPA to contribute is to create these environmental
Speaker 1: sampling protocols or best practices that anyone around the country
Speaker 1: can use. Maybe it's a CDC that wants to use them,
Speaker 1: maybe it's the Department of Defense, maybe it's a university lab.
Speaker 1: So by creating the standard way of testing, they're sort
Speaker 1: of evening out of the playing field for everybody. Right,
Speaker 1: And we should actually say that the Science Advisors here
Speaker 1: are a group of independent scientists that the EPA has
Speaker 1: assembled to sort of guide its work in certain areas.
Speaker 1: So it sounds like they're saying, like, yeah, disinfectants, you know,
Speaker 1: that's important, but really, what you need to be working
Speaker 1: on is coming up with this this sampling protocol, right,
Speaker 1: I'm a little surprised that the CDC or the NH
Speaker 1: aren't working on this. Why is this an EPA issue? Well,
Speaker 1: the CDC is working with the EPA to some extent,
Speaker 1: but certainly there's a lot of players here. Like there's
Speaker 1: companies that run labs like Eurofins, and they're already able
Speaker 1: to sample services like countertops and keyboards for coronavirus. The
Speaker 1: EPA has its own or the Army has its own
Speaker 1: infectious disease research. So the EPA is going to have
Speaker 1: to work with a lot of different agencies to make
Speaker 1: sure that they're not duplicating and that they're able to share,
Speaker 1: you know, what they learn and learn from other agencies too.
Speaker 1: So in other words, it sounds like the Science Advisors
Speaker 1: want them to like take point on this, like just
Speaker 1: you know, not to have like a federal agency alphabet
Speaker 1: soup that where everyone's duplicating each other's work. When it
Speaker 1: comes to environmental testing. The EPA should be the lead
Speaker 1: agency on that. That's right, the advisors saying that that's
Speaker 1: really the EPA's strong suit and that's where they can
Speaker 1: contribute the most to the pandemic. Well, finally, I also
Speaker 1: wanted to talk to you about the other things that
Speaker 1: the EPA is doing, because in addition to you know,
Speaker 1: maybe potentially coming up with environmental tests, they're just struggling
Speaker 1: to do their sort of regular everyday work. Like we've
Speaker 1: talked about in the past, that they've cut back on enforcement.
Speaker 1: You know, maybe they've resumed some of that now that
Speaker 1: social distancing orders have been lifted, but permit writing is
Speaker 1: difficult now just given staffing issues. How much of the
Speaker 1: EPA's work now during the pandemic is, you know, contributing
Speaker 1: to solving this crisis versus how much of it is
Speaker 1: just you know, keeping the lights on and doing the
Speaker 1: sort of environmental protection that you think of when you
Speaker 1: think of the EPA. Sure, so, ep IS coronavirus work
Speaker 1: has mostly been limited to the Research and Development Office.
Speaker 1: Some of the other offices are somewhat working with them
Speaker 1: on this, but it sounds like it's mostly going to
Speaker 1: be limited to the research because, I mean, like you said,
Speaker 1: the agency still has a lot of rules to enforce,
Speaker 1: They have regulations to finalize. There's so many other things
Speaker 1: that they're also working on that the coronavirus is going
Speaker 1: to be a relatively small part of its time and resources.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, that's it for today's episode of Parts
Speaker 1: per Billion. If you want more environmental news, check out
Speaker 1: our website news dot Bloomberg environment dot com. That website,
Speaker 1: once again is news dot Bloomberg environment dot com. Today's
Speaker 1: episode of Parsperbillion was produced by myself along with Josh
Speaker 1: Block and Maurissa Horn. Parts per Billion was created by
Speaker 1: Jessica Coombs and Rachel Daegel. The music for today's episode
Speaker 1: is a Message by Jizarre and Pelican by Ulffmeyer. They
Speaker 1: were used under Creative Commons license. Thanks for listening. Hi,
Speaker 1: I'm Laura Carlson, and I'm dropping into your feed to
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