Speaker 1: Welcome back to another episode of Cutting the Distance. Today.
Speaker 1: I'm here with my good buddy Dirk Durham and co host,
Speaker 1: and we're gonna we're gonna jump into a topic that, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, its sparks a lot of debate, you know,
Speaker 1: within the hunting community, outside the hunting community, maybe even
Speaker 1: more so trophy hunting versus meat hunting. And I don't
Speaker 1: even understand what the difference is, but it's also being
Speaker 1: thrown around now, you know, in potential legislation and bills.
Speaker 1: I know it was specifically put in the Colorado bill
Speaker 1: that just thankfully got you know, shot down by the voters,
Speaker 1: you know, trophy hunting, and it's in my opinion, it's
Speaker 1: used to romanticize and pull the heartstrings of the voters
Speaker 1: and then some of what I would call like the
Speaker 1: over the top, crazy, protect animal at all costs types
Speaker 1: of people. So welcome to the show, Derek.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, how's it going?
Speaker 1: Good? Good hunting season for the most parts, all wrapped
Speaker 1: up for us and getting back to some normal topics
Speaker 1: that don't that that are a little bit different than
Speaker 1: our normal you know, tips and tactics, technical stuff. So
Speaker 1: kind of kind of excited to jump into this one.
Speaker 1: I was reading the social post the other day and
Speaker 1: it was from a newspaper, you know, so I'm sitting
Speaker 1: there thinking, oh, I'm I'm I'm not overly dramatic, but
Speaker 1: I like to see both sides, right, you know. From
Speaker 1: when it's a newspaper, you're gonna get the hunters and
Speaker 1: the anna hunters. So I mean, not being able to
Speaker 1: help myself, I click on the comment section just because
Speaker 1: I like a good you know, some mudslinging and like
Speaker 1: to see that. I like to see the pigs wrestle
Speaker 1: in the mud a little bit. And and I kind
Speaker 1: of seen how some of the hunters responded, you know,
Speaker 1: back and forth, and why the other side, you know,
Speaker 1: the trophy hunting, the protect trophy hunting. Trophy hunting is
Speaker 1: bad type people. They they're completely wrong. They do a
Speaker 1: better job at talking at time versus you know, the
Speaker 1: majority of hunters are just like, trophy hunting is good.
Speaker 1: I'll shoot what I want and I'll shoot as much
Speaker 1: as I want. Now my list isn't good messaging either,
Speaker 1: So I'm like, uh, let's throw it on the podcast.
Speaker 1: And I've always had a lot of thoughts and confusion
Speaker 1: and h just what is trophy hunting? You know, I
Speaker 1: think that's where you have to kind of start. If
Speaker 1: we're going to throw a word out there, we should
Speaker 1: all be able to understand, you know, what it means.
Speaker 1: So in your opinion, what would you or how would
Speaker 1: you define what is trophy hunting?
Speaker 2: Or once it's you, I think that's almost like a
Speaker 2: loaded question. It's kind of like one of those it
Speaker 2: means something to everyone differently. It's almost like to me,
Speaker 2: it's almost like ethics, right, So if you ask one
Speaker 2: person to say, okay, what's ethical behavior there, you get
Speaker 2: get a room full of people and you ask each person.
Speaker 2: Each person's going to give you a different, you know,
Speaker 2: take on it. And I think trophy hunting is a
Speaker 2: lot like that. If it's coming from an anti hunting perspective,
Speaker 2: Trophy hunting is basically you're killing an animal for its
Speaker 2: antlers or skull, hide, whatever whatever its attributes are. You're
Speaker 2: killing it for that physical attribute and discarding anything else about,
Speaker 2: you know, with the animal, which from a hunting perspective,
Speaker 2: that's not necessarily accurate because a lot of people will
Speaker 2: say trophy hunting is you know, they're they are looking
Speaker 2: for the largest biggest measuring animal they can find for
Speaker 2: their tag. But they're not they're not wasting meat, you know,
Speaker 2: they're not just shooting an animal and leaving you know,
Speaker 2: taking you know, taking the antlers or the hide or
Speaker 2: the head and just leaving it to waste. That's not
Speaker 2: that's that's actually poaching, you know, because you know that's
Speaker 2: that's illegal. So so as hunters, you know, you know,
Speaker 2: we're going to shoot a big elk, for instance, the
Speaker 2: big like a trophy a trophy hunt or a trophy hunter.
Speaker 2: You're try to shoot the biggest one you can get
Speaker 2: because it's probably a limited opportunity, maybe almost a once
Speaker 2: in a lifetime chance for you to kill a really mature,
Speaker 2: big antlered elk. But you're going to take that meat
Speaker 2: home too, or share it with friends, but the meat
Speaker 2: will be harvested as well. Now you're going to put
Speaker 2: that that set of antlers on your wall, whether you
Speaker 2: put on a shoulder mount or a European mount. And
Speaker 2: you know, the anti hunters feel that's disgusting. They don't
Speaker 2: understand though, that we're at that point you're honoring that animal,
Speaker 2: right you're putting it on the wall. I mean that
Speaker 2: that animal's life will be remembered for as long as
Speaker 2: those antlers are in existence. Right that that animal's life
Speaker 2: is honored. It's the hunt was honored. You know, everything
Speaker 2: about it is honored. Whereas they don't see it that way.
Speaker 2: They don't have that understanding of it. I guess they
Speaker 2: just look at as a like a prize or a trophy,
Speaker 2: like like a trophy that you would win at a
Speaker 2: you know, race or or something.
Speaker 1: So let me in this. I have to apologize. I
Speaker 1: told Dirk before this podcast, but this one, this whole
Speaker 1: topic is like a soup sandwich because I've tried to
Speaker 1: like how am I going to organize this? How are
Speaker 1: we not going to go left and right and keep
Speaker 1: this thing in the middle. So I'm gonna apologize. But
Speaker 1: so by that definition, so my son's got his first buck,
Speaker 1: which is a fork and horn on his wall, is
Speaker 1: he now a trophy hunter or is it just that
Speaker 1: he's proud? You know? So it's like, how do you
Speaker 1: you know, defining it by by antlers on the wall.
Speaker 1: It's like similar to you, I, you know, we have
Speaker 1: a lot of family gatherings at my house. We you know,
Speaker 1: we built my house to do that. Sort of thing.
Speaker 1: And I've got quite a few animals on the wall,
Speaker 1: but those more than the trophy. Yeah, it's an higher call,
Speaker 1: you know, higher caliber type animal. You know that that
Speaker 1: we but there's not a single uncle or dad or
Speaker 1: somebody involved in that hunt that doesn't come in my
Speaker 1: house and we can sit and tell a thirty minute
Speaker 1: story about that and how cold it was or how
Speaker 1: hot it was, or who ran out of water, who
Speaker 1: forgot their lunch, you know which one of my overweight
Speaker 1: uncles ran out of food and had to beg for somebody.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: It's like those sort of things. So it's like trophy
Speaker 1: hunting in that aspect, Like in a roundabout way, it
Speaker 1: met some sort of criteria that I had to get
Speaker 1: it on the wall, but those are the me you know.
Speaker 1: It somehow, in a roundabout way still leads the memories
Speaker 1: and everything. So it's it's very hard to describe, and
Speaker 1: I've always struggled with especially when you let so let's
Speaker 1: go back to trophy hunting versus meat hunting, and not
Speaker 1: to get overly scientific, they both obviously have the word
Speaker 1: hunting in it, but then it's like you go and
Speaker 1: treat trophy hunting like it's some separate thing you know
Speaker 1: out in the woods or out in the mountains or
Speaker 1: out in the tree stand. Like if your trophy hunting,
Speaker 1: you're doing something different than the meat hunter, right, which
Speaker 1: I've always struggled like how do you make that connection?
Speaker 1: Because I'm doing the same regardless of I'm doing the
Speaker 1: same thing, and and so it's not like this separate thing.
Speaker 1: When you hear somebody say, oh, they're going trophy hunting
Speaker 1: or they are trophy hunting, It's like, no, it's the
Speaker 1: same damn thing as the meat hunter. I just upset
Speaker 1: a different a different Like I've moved the bar, right,
Speaker 1: I've moved the bar to a different level. And we're
Speaker 1: gonna get into it, like a lot of times for
Speaker 1: me if you want to lay, you know, we're gonna
Speaker 1: be labeled a trophy hunter versus a non It's like
Speaker 1: what tag do I have? What what is available on
Speaker 1: this hunt? Like what's the odds of killing something better
Speaker 1: or bigger? Or is it a unit that's managed for
Speaker 1: certain things. So I've always struggled with like, it's not
Speaker 1: a separate thing. It's the same dang thing. You know,
Speaker 1: it's you're hunting, it's just whether you've put a certain
Speaker 1: a certain limitation on what you're willing to not your
Speaker 1: tag on. And so I've struggled with that, you know,
Speaker 1: a lot, and then you alluded to it. You know,
Speaker 1: there's this idea that you know, and this is I
Speaker 1: think this is what the anti hunts, the animal lovers
Speaker 1: whatever we're going to refer to them as, Like, this
Speaker 1: is the picture that they want to paint, is the
Speaker 1: idea that trophy hunters go out there, they're there for
Speaker 1: nothing but the horns, and then they basically walk away
Speaker 1: from the meat. Right, Like you know, we've talked about that.
Speaker 1: It's I don't know anybody that considers themselves a hunter
Speaker 1: or somebody that I would consider a hunter, that would
Speaker 1: ever do that, even if you want to consider yourself
Speaker 1: a trophy hunter. That and this is where I get
Speaker 1: a little little on the fence about it is, you know,
Speaker 1: and then you get the word thrill killer out there,
Speaker 1: like are you just hunting for strictly the sport? Like
Speaker 1: you just want to challenge to kill an animal that's
Speaker 1: got you know, these senses and eyesight and all this
Speaker 1: stuff to challenge you, and then you donate the meat. Right,
Speaker 1: So you're out there, You're not gonna eat any of it,
Speaker 1: you don't want to deal with it. But even then
Speaker 1: I would question, like, is there a more charitable act
Speaker 1: than that? Like that person went out there, spent their
Speaker 1: own money, use their own resources, and then most of
Speaker 1: the time they donate to a food bank, people and
Speaker 1: more needs. So it's like, is there a more charitable
Speaker 1: selfless act than feeding someone else with your own money?
Speaker 1: And so I can't really shy at that either.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, which is harder buying a couple of
Speaker 2: turkeys and taking them to the food bank and getting
Speaker 2: that and spending money or whatever it is buying half
Speaker 2: of a beef and taking it to the food bank,
Speaker 2: spending a bunch of money donating the food bank, or
Speaker 2: just making a monetary donation. I mean that's a good feeling, sure,
Speaker 2: but the effort that took for that donation is I
Speaker 2: mean you had to earn the money, Yeah, of course,
Speaker 2: but to go on a trophy hunt, let's say you
Speaker 2: don't want to eat the meat, or don't like wild game,
Speaker 2: or can't transport it whatever, you had to like earn
Speaker 2: the money. You had to acquire the license tag, then
Speaker 2: you had to show up and then do all the work.
Speaker 2: And let's face it, sometimes these trophy hunting units as
Speaker 2: some call them, it's not an easy hunt. You still
Speaker 2: have to show up and hunt hard, and it's physically demanding.
Speaker 2: You have to you have to break the animal down,
Speaker 2: keep the meat clean, keep it sanitary, remove it from
Speaker 2: the field, have it packaged, process and then put it
Speaker 2: to take it to the food bank. I mean, I
Speaker 2: don't know any of that. That's way harder than just
Speaker 2: giving a charitable, charitable donation to the food bank. From
Speaker 2: a non hunting.
Speaker 1: Perspective, yep. And I can't. I can't frown upon somebody
Speaker 1: wanting and I would be lying to say that at
Speaker 1: times I don't hunt for the support of it right.
Speaker 1: To be honest, I'd be four hundred pounds and still
Speaker 1: six foot three if it wasn't fronting. So I'm out
Speaker 1: there to get in shape. I love seeing new places.
Speaker 1: I love you know, all of this, and so it's
Speaker 1: like that there's part of me that that loves the challenge,
Speaker 1: like I could. How am I going to say in it?
Speaker 1: My intention is not to put down meat hunters at all,
Speaker 1: because anybody that knows my background, you know, my my upbringing,
Speaker 1: we never passed a legal ball. We would sometimes, you know,
Speaker 1: growing up, we'd let some smaller bucks go depending on
Speaker 1: what the meat situation was, how much meat we had
Speaker 1: left over from last year, what the cooler was looking like.
Speaker 1: So in no way, but I would say every time
Speaker 1: meat hunting is easier, right, meat hunting is always going
Speaker 1: to be easier. It's always going to be easier than
Speaker 1: trophy hunting, and so so from a conservation and I'm
Speaker 1: not trying to sit on a high horse here by
Speaker 1: no means, but by me being and I wouldn't consider
Speaker 1: myself a trophyuntner. I'm just a guy that's out there
Speaker 1: wanting to find something above average. We'll say that by
Speaker 1: doing that, I'm actually helping out on the conservation side, right,
Speaker 1: Like I'm I'm letting a younger animal, you know, live
Speaker 1: another day. I'm letting that animal grow up to be
Speaker 1: a little bit older. I'm helping keep the numbers up
Speaker 1: for the chance that I may not kill something by
Speaker 1: the end of that hunt. And so you know, so
Speaker 1: when it comes to this conservation side, it's like, all right,
Speaker 1: I feel that trophy hunting or is better for for
Speaker 1: for the animals on the landscape. It's it's going to
Speaker 1: give you more more numbers. It's you know, you you
Speaker 1: give them a chance to get a little bit older
Speaker 1: and a little bit smarter, which I think helps it.
Speaker 1: You know, these anybody that toned for very long. You know,
Speaker 1: your your does and fawns always feel the safest. Your
Speaker 1: small bucks, you know, sometimes feel more safe than that.
Speaker 1: I guess as well. But you know, those animals are
Speaker 1: the low hanging fruit and and uh yeah, there's that
Speaker 1: argument as well that, uh, you know, by not being
Speaker 1: a meat hunter, you're actually helping keep more animals on
Speaker 1: the ground as well.
Speaker 2: When I was a kid, we had a lot of
Speaker 2: deer around where I lived, and I mean there were
Speaker 2: a ton of deer. And after the first couple of
Speaker 2: years of deer hunting, it became apparent that, you know,
Speaker 2: with just a little bit of effort, I'd be able
Speaker 2: to go out and shoot a deer for meat. My family,
Speaker 2: you know, it's always been you know, meat hunters, and
Speaker 2: my dad, like especially, he's like, I don't want to
Speaker 2: stinking bucks or I don't know want those stinking bulls.
Speaker 2: You know, he only shot one antlered animal my entire life.
Speaker 2: You know, when he was a young man. I think
Speaker 2: he shot some, but most of his life he shot
Speaker 2: you know, cow's cow, elk and doe deer. But I
Speaker 2: loved to hunt. I hunted. I wanted to hunt every
Speaker 2: single day. I didn't play sports. I wanted to hunt
Speaker 2: every single day. I'd go out before school, I'd go
Speaker 2: out after school. So if I tagged out on the
Speaker 2: first nice dough, I saw my season was going to
Speaker 2: be over. So selfishly, I wanted to hunt more. So
Speaker 2: I'm like, I want to hold out for a big buck.
Speaker 2: This is when I first started hunting deer. I didn't
Speaker 2: have I didn't hunt helk yet, and I just wanted
Speaker 2: to shoot a really big buck. And I'm mature deer
Speaker 2: because I wanted to keep hunting, right, so I was.
Speaker 2: So I started passing little bucks, started passing doughs and
Speaker 2: stuff until I could kill a big buck. And it
Speaker 2: made my season longer. And just for the love of
Speaker 2: being out there. You know, I loved being outdoors. I
Speaker 2: love I loved seeing lots of animals, I loved I
Speaker 2: loved everything about it. And then you know, with the
Speaker 2: possibility of like maybe getting a big one, and there
Speaker 2: was lots of little ones, that got away and some
Speaker 2: big ones that got away too, because you're like someone
Speaker 2: picking up Oh he's gone yep. So I don't see it.
Speaker 2: I don't see a problem with it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's get We'll start with in my the
Speaker 1: arguments for trophy hunting. And I hate when we talk
Speaker 1: about wildlife and it comes down to funding for conservation. Right,
Speaker 1: So funding all of our states, I believe all are
Speaker 1: managed by a fishing game agency of some sort. You know,
Speaker 1: trophy hunts or trophy hunting is you know, conducted through
Speaker 1: a regulated system where there's permits and fees. Those funds
Speaker 1: are then used to support the wages, you know, the biologists,
Speaker 1: the legislative people, the concert you know, that money goes
Speaker 1: the conservation initiatives, you know, your anti poaching efforts, you know,
Speaker 1: even local communities trophy hunting or what. And throughout this,
Speaker 1: throughout this podcast, I'm gonna use trophy hunting just so
Speaker 1: we can stay on topic. I don't necessarily consider it
Speaker 1: trophy hunting, but for you know, the keep us on.
Speaker 1: So trophy hunting, you know, you go to some of
Speaker 1: these places in rule New Mexico, trophy hunting and the
Speaker 1: good units that funds an entire community that funds most
Speaker 1: of our fishing game agencies. You know, I always me
Speaker 1: and Dirk argue all the time about non residence funding
Speaker 1: Idaho's fishing game. But if there wasn't a potential for
Speaker 1: me to draw a good tag, there are years I
Speaker 1: wouldn't buy one hundred and fifty dollars license. So then
Speaker 1: I could put my whatever it is, twelve fifteen dollars absent, right,
Speaker 1: So that one hundred and seventy dollars, whether it's a
Speaker 1: donation or not, I've drawn one take there. But you
Speaker 1: give them that money, and that is what runs that states.
Speaker 1: You know, whether it's winter feed. I don't even know
Speaker 1: if you guys want her feed. I'm just going through
Speaker 1: things in other states that do that sort of stuff.
Speaker 1: So that funding for conservation is and I believe I
Speaker 1: heard Clay newcom our good buddy Clay, who has a
Speaker 1: great podcast over there at Bear Grease, when he was
Speaker 1: on the Rogan podcast. Rogan brought up the topic of
Speaker 1: trophy hunting, and I Clay did a great job on
Speaker 1: this topic. Trophy hunting, the idea of trophy hunting is
Speaker 1: maybe what saved our big game herds. Anyways, right, because
Speaker 1: and the same thing that saved African game animals, it
Speaker 1: finally put a value on them, which then detoured the
Speaker 1: poachers because the people that put value on them now
Speaker 1: protected those animals, right, And so without that protection of
Speaker 1: being labeled a trophy animal or the animal itself now
Speaker 1: having some intrinsic value more than the meat, actually help
Speaker 1: save the popular you know, help in in in a way,
Speaker 1: save that population. So there's funding in conservation. But then
Speaker 1: that funding or the value that we put on bait.
Speaker 1: You know, if you can imagine a deer walking around
Speaker 1: with a five hundred dollars bill, you know, above their head,
Speaker 1: like on the cartoons or on video games, like that
Speaker 1: deer has value now because of what's the potential that's
Speaker 1: on his head. Whether that's right or wrong or maybe
Speaker 1: that's where you know, meat hunters can say, like, but
Speaker 1: it shouldn't have a value like that because of what's
Speaker 1: on its head. But I would I would love to
Speaker 1: debate them or challenge them. Would that deer exist in
Speaker 1: that place? If we just let meat hunters go and
Speaker 1: you know, go gather all the meat they want, there
Speaker 1: wouldn't be a whole lot left, right, We wouldn't have
Speaker 1: anything to hunt, So there's got to be some sort
Speaker 1: of management, which, in a round about way, I'm getting
Speaker 1: back to the funding. Because the trophy animals and the
Speaker 1: value that these these critters.
Speaker 2: Do have, yeah, absolutely, you know it put it put
Speaker 2: big game animals on a pedestal to where people respected
Speaker 2: them and respect to their value instead of just considering
Speaker 2: them just a food source. Which, yeah, you're you're you're
Speaker 2: one hundred percent right.
Speaker 1: I'm not a biologist by any means, but I've been
Speaker 1: around hunting my whole life. I've talked to you know,
Speaker 1: I've interviewed tons of biologists here. You've been around animals
Speaker 1: your whole life. I feel that once again we're going
Speaker 1: back to trophy hunting. Trophy hunting is good for managing populations.
Speaker 1: That's selective hunting of mature animals, whether they're past their
Speaker 1: breeding prime, whatever we want to get into on that.
Speaker 1: It's a it's a good method. Like we've in areas
Speaker 1: where it's managed very well. And I have to I'm
Speaker 1: not a very experienced whitetail hunter. I'm three years in.
Speaker 1: But I let's go to like the Midwest where I
Speaker 1: would say you're able to manage a a tight knit
Speaker 1: population very very well. Right, They've shown through years and
Speaker 1: years of doing this that it aids in the health
Speaker 1: of your herd. You've got better animals on the landscape,
Speaker 1: you've got and so by shooting these these younger animals
Speaker 1: and then you've got older animals die off well, by
Speaker 1: shooting the older animal that would die off within a
Speaker 1: couple of years, you give the a chance for that
Speaker 1: younger buck to escape into all of these things. And
Speaker 1: I think out west, like we should just be able
Speaker 1: to translate, you you know, transpose and move that out here. Now.
Speaker 1: I know there's other factors. You know, we've got more predators,
Speaker 1: we've gotten more of this or that, But I feel
Speaker 1: like the trophy hunting mindset, killing that older, you know,
Speaker 1: animal that's rutted hard, it's more susceptive to dying off
Speaker 1: on a bad winter. It's going to help manage populations,
Speaker 1: which gives people more opportunity, more tags, longer seasons, all
Speaker 1: of the things that we all love, whether you're a
Speaker 1: meat hunter or or a trophy hunter. Oh.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's It's very apparent. If you look at any
Speaker 2: any Western state, southwestern state, anywhere they have we have elk,
Speaker 2: mule deer, and you look a limited entry units, limited
Speaker 2: entry areas like or even like Arizona for instance, that
Speaker 2: you know they got fantastic elk in the areas they're
Speaker 2: you know, it's very limited and people are trying to
Speaker 2: kill a trophy bowl, you know, a very mature bowl
Speaker 2: utah mule deer in anywhere or in eastern Montana, we're
Speaker 2: very limited access and they have giant elk and huge
Speaker 2: olcrds everywhere. It's if they just let people go shoot
Speaker 2: those indiscriminately, like okay, here's your general tag, go ahead,
Speaker 2: those herds would not be what they are. I mean,
Speaker 2: there's no argument about it, because you can reference other
Speaker 2: areas where they do have a general over the cat
Speaker 2: over the countertype tag and the herds are not as flourishing.
Speaker 2: There's just not as many elk or deer on the landscape.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, we a lot of people in the
Speaker 1: hunting community, like the rag on or or you know,
Speaker 1: instantly say that fishing game offices or agencies don't do
Speaker 1: a good job managing I think across the West they
Speaker 1: did a pretty good job of giving us a pretty
Speaker 1: good balance of opportunity versus like trophy. So I think,
Speaker 1: you know, there's there's over the county units where you're
Speaker 1: gonna go, you know, ride the struggle bus and you're
Speaker 1: gonna have a ten percent chance, and then there's gonna
Speaker 1: be units where you have a forty percent chance of
Speaker 1: success and have a chance at a giant bowl. So
Speaker 1: the one thing in this big and I don't I
Speaker 1: don't envy their position at all because they're trying to balance,
Speaker 1: you know, the extreme meat hunter to the extreme trophy
Speaker 1: hunter and everybody in between. You everybody wants something different,
Speaker 1: everybody hunts with a different weapon. But yeah, it's they there.
Speaker 1: There's drastic differences on the landscape when a unit's managed
Speaker 1: for trophy potential and trophy quality versus opportunity, you know,
Speaker 1: a meat hunter's opportunity. And I would maybe, I don't know,
Speaker 1: I didn't think very much about this argument, but I'd
Speaker 1: almost make the argument that more meat is harvested from
Speaker 1: these trophy units with a lot less tags, and more
Speaker 1: meats harvested from these meat eater units, you know, or
Speaker 1: meat hunter units that are over the counter, wide open
Speaker 1: to everybody. I didn't do any fact checking on that,
Speaker 1: but just my understanding and just you know what we see,
Speaker 1: like all right, percentages are way higher. Yeah, there's less tags,
Speaker 1: but you know, when you add success and it might
Speaker 1: be close to If we're truly talking about meat ending
Speaker 1: up in somebody's freezer, trophy units might do just as
Speaker 1: good a job.
Speaker 2: An animal size, Right, A ten year old bull elk
Speaker 2: is a lot bigger than a two and a half
Speaker 2: year old bull elk. I mean, let's let's just face it.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot more meat there.
Speaker 1: No Dirk's getting into that one like little another little
Speaker 1: slippery slope in here is. And trust me, I come
Speaker 1: from a place where you know, we we you know,
Speaker 1: the youngsters kill spike bucks and as you get older,
Speaker 1: you kill bigger. But so I'm not I'm not saying anything.
Speaker 1: But that's the one argument I struggle with. And I
Speaker 1: don't know how to how to expand on it or
Speaker 1: talk about it without putting somebody down, which is what
Speaker 1: I don't want to do. You know, Switzerland, when it
Speaker 1: comes to stuff, I just want to be in the middle.
Speaker 1: I want everybody to do what they want to do
Speaker 1: as long as it's legal. So I'll put that out there,
Speaker 1: But don't make the meat hunter argument when you drove
Speaker 1: across the state with gas prices where they are to
Speaker 1: shoot a one and a half year old deer and
Speaker 1: tell me that you don't care because you're a meat hunter. Now,
Speaker 1: there's an argument to be made that is wild organic meat.
Speaker 1: And but I've been there, I've I've cut open, I've skinned,
Speaker 1: I've cut up a lot of deer and elk and
Speaker 1: it's drastic. You know, you're getting half the deer if
Speaker 1: that on, or you're getting half the elk on a
Speaker 1: spike bowl versus six and a half or seven and
Speaker 1: a half year old bowl. Maybe less maybe less meat,
Speaker 1: And so.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. Well I used to work with some guys,
Speaker 2: you know, and they were, you know, I'm just a
Speaker 2: meat hunter. I'm like, well, I'm a meat hunter too,
Speaker 2: and just I just like to hopefully get a more
Speaker 2: mature animal. But like this year, I shot a spike kelk.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not I'm not that much of a
Speaker 2: trophy hunter. But i will say, you know that those
Speaker 2: guys are like they would you know, by they would
Speaker 2: shoot the first dough or the first thing, and I'm like,
Speaker 2: why why did you shoot that thing so fast? Well,
Speaker 2: I need the meat I need the meat. I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: you guys make like steaks and burger and roasts out
Speaker 2: of it. No, no pepperoni and jerk. And I'm like, dude,
Speaker 2: that's snacks. You're making freaking snacks. That's don't don't bullshit me.
Speaker 1: Man. Yeah you're not. You're not sustaining your family off
Speaker 1: of that, right.
Speaker 2: But you just spent to kill that deer. You could
Speaker 2: have went to Pepperidge Farms at the mall and spent
Speaker 2: that same money and and came away with a lot
Speaker 2: more a lot more meat. So don't don't blow smoke
Speaker 2: up my tailpipe.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so I'm gonna I'm not done with managing populations.
Speaker 1: I think it's only fair to give both sides. And
Speaker 1: like I say, I hopefully don't touch on this again.
Speaker 1: I feel trophy hunting does hurt genetics in some areas,
Speaker 1: and my example is eastern Montana. Your meal deer hunting.
Speaker 1: Everybody wants a perfect four point, right, Yeah, they will
Speaker 1: shoot a two and a half year old perfect four
Speaker 1: point that scores one hundred and ten inches before they'll
Speaker 1: shoot the seven and a half year old buck that's
Speaker 1: a two by three or a crab claw buck right right.
Speaker 1: And so this idea of trophy hunting without people maybe
Speaker 1: fully understanding. Once again, do whatever you want if it's
Speaker 1: legal and you got your own tag. But I feel
Speaker 1: like sometimes we're chasing the wrong trophy at times, Like
Speaker 1: if somebody pulls out a big, old, gnarly eight and
Speaker 1: a half year old buck that has no forks and
Speaker 1: you know, there's a big slick to you know, whatever
Speaker 1: it may be, I feel like at times that's better
Speaker 1: for the herd than us taking out you know, these
Speaker 1: young four points, you know, same thing we just got
Speaker 1: back from Kansas. I don't want to go, you know,
Speaker 1: go back into that. But there's times where maybe you're
Speaker 1: chasing an inches number and you got bucks running by that,
Speaker 1: are you know, bucks that are way older than that,
Speaker 1: way smarter than that, more meat than that, Like should
Speaker 1: you take those out? And so I do think that
Speaker 1: trophy hunting has hurt us, or hurt some people, or
Speaker 1: some might not. Some people have have skewed some people's
Speaker 1: perception of what the trophy or the challenge really is.
Speaker 1: Like killing that two and a half year old perfect
Speaker 1: four point was not tougher than killing one hundred and
Speaker 1: twenty inch seven and a half year old buck that
Speaker 1: doesn't have any forks.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, absolutely absolutely, So.
Speaker 1: That's that's one thing I wish. I wish we as
Speaker 1: a collective group, if you are, you know, setting a
Speaker 1: standard or setting something you're after, like let's cross really
Speaker 1: young four points, you're really young, ten point white tails,
Speaker 1: whatever it may be, you're really small six points with
Speaker 1: short times, Like, hey, those things are young, Like let's
Speaker 1: go chase a big old giant five point. Let's go
Speaker 1: you know a five point bowler. Let's go chase a
Speaker 1: big slick two point that's legal in your area. That's
Speaker 1: you know, a bowlie buck and running all your good
Speaker 1: you know, your good breeder bucks off and I even
Speaker 1: have to back up, like that's assuming you care about
Speaker 1: the future of the genetics. And maybe I'm completely off
Speaker 1: base and this is like unbiological, you know, this isn't
Speaker 1: like bi biologically founded. Like maybe it doesn't matter because
Speaker 1: it was carried fifty percent as well. But I think
Speaker 1: in our heads were like we want the bucks with
Speaker 1: good forks, and we want the bucks with long times.
Speaker 1: We want the bucks and bulls with good masks to
Speaker 1: carry on and spread their jeans where maybe it doesn't
Speaker 1: work that way. But that's one thing like as I've
Speaker 1: got older and and paid more attention, like, let's just
Speaker 1: kill the older, more mature deer than chasing a few
Speaker 1: more inches on a deer that's half its age or
Speaker 1: buck or bowl.
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, absolutely. Well here a couple of years ago
Speaker 2: when we were in Montana, we were hunting with your family,
Speaker 2: and everybody got an ice buck and we started skinning
Speaker 2: heads out. Who had the oldest deer? I think was
Speaker 2: it was it?
Speaker 1: Sandy Ye scored by far the les Yeah.
Speaker 2: It was like the small one of the smallest racks,
Speaker 2: but it was the oldest deer. That thing's teeth were
Speaker 2: almost gone. And some of the youngest deer, you know,
Speaker 2: we're we're had bigger antlers, you know, so it was
Speaker 2: it was interesting to see that, you know, you you
Speaker 2: you judging you know, an animal a trophy animal by
Speaker 2: antler size only it can be kind of kind of
Speaker 2: deceiving and it you got to kind of look at
Speaker 2: everything we we we face this in Kansas when we
Speaker 2: go whitetail, honey, you know, it's it's like, wow, that's
Speaker 2: a great ten point, you know, a five by five,
Speaker 2: But look he's kind of narrow in the withers. His
Speaker 2: his chest isn't as deep, he doesn't have a giant brisket,
Speaker 2: his neck isn't huge, he's not sway back. You start
Speaker 2: looking at all these other factors, like, let's not shoot
Speaker 2: that one. Let's let him live and wait till, wait,
Speaker 2: till he lives to his potential because he's not quite
Speaker 2: old enough. He's just not old deer, even though he's
Speaker 2: got a beautiful rack yep.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I I love That's why I love that,
Speaker 1: you know, private land white Tail, because you truly can
Speaker 1: manage a herd to the level, you know. And and
Speaker 1: when we go there, it's it's five and a half
Speaker 1: the goal and Randy, Randy managed it pretty strict. But
Speaker 1: at the end of the day he's like, it's just
Speaker 1: a deer, right, the shoot what you want, but he
Speaker 1: wants to kill five and a half year old deer
Speaker 1: so you can see their potential. And and I love
Speaker 1: Kansas because a lot of times out West, and maybe
Speaker 1: it's my own fault for getting in a hurry and
Speaker 1: not looking at them through the spotter, you know long enough.
Speaker 1: But you know, you're, like you said, you're evaluating how
Speaker 1: old is that dear, how big is its head? How big?
Speaker 1: You know, if you take the horns out of the
Speaker 1: picture and you're just looking at a body, but you
Speaker 1: know it's a buck, Like how big is he? You know,
Speaker 1: barrel chested? You know, sway in his back? And maybe
Speaker 1: I should do more of that out west. You know
Speaker 1: a lot of times if you look at their face
Speaker 1: long and if you can just tell how old that
Speaker 1: buck is or his head, and you start to look
Speaker 1: at those things, and that's a back to my you
Speaker 1: know that The original point is I think we should
Speaker 1: manage more on age, class or or a potential. Like
Speaker 1: we've seen the potential of this animal. Now let's you know,
Speaker 1: kill it at that point, you know, whether regardless of
Speaker 1: what it has up there. I know it's tough. I'm
Speaker 1: a hypocrite because I don't necessarily follow through with that.
Speaker 1: I just think, you know, I know it would be
Speaker 1: probably a better way to manage the herd for health
Speaker 1: and all of that.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely so.
Speaker 1: Some of the criticisms of trophy hunting, I want to
Speaker 1: get into those. We've we've kind of already talked about that.
Speaker 1: You know that that wasteful, the belief that it prioritizes,
Speaker 1: you know, the vanity over the utility. I we've already
Speaker 1: kind of wrote this one off. I don't I think
Speaker 1: that that's smoking mirrors. It's drummed up by the anti hunters,
Speaker 1: and it's all a bunch of hogwash. And I don't
Speaker 1: I don't even think we need to spend any more
Speaker 1: time on that, unless you got any other points you
Speaker 1: want to throw in.
Speaker 2: I just think it's mud slinging from their point. You know,
Speaker 2: they don't want us shooting anything. You know, let's just
Speaker 2: be honest. They don't want us to kill any animals.
Speaker 2: They want this perfect utopian world where animals run free
Speaker 2: and nobody ever kills them. They die of old age,
Speaker 2: curled up and next to a bed of flowers, and
Speaker 2: you know, pass peacefully in the night. But you know
Speaker 2: they're gonna try to you know, look at the work
Speaker 2: show examples of the worst scenario. Some rich fat cat
Speaker 2: went and paid a bunch of money and and shot
Speaker 2: this animal for its for its antlers or its rhinoceros
Speaker 2: horn or whatever it is. You know, you know, just
Speaker 2: trying to make it look as bad, make the optics
Speaker 2: as bad as possible. And then they go ahead and
Speaker 2: you know, we'll just go ahead and leave out all
Speaker 2: these other details that that I know that that that
Speaker 2: guy paid a whole bunch of money, just kept that
Speaker 2: whole local community of people alive for the next year,
Speaker 2: and kept a whole bunch of other rhinos alive for
Speaker 2: tomorrow as well. You know, they just don't paint the
Speaker 2: picture that like what all that everything that's considered into hunting,
Speaker 2: trophy hunting what it does. So it's just mud slinging,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: And they these people are very surgical and strategical right
Speaker 1: when when they go after trophy hunting. So Disney is
Speaker 1: the worst offender on romanticizing these animals that we've hunted
Speaker 1: forever from the dawn of time, that we've survived on food.
Speaker 1: I would be willing to bet nobody on the face
Speaker 1: of this planet right now, and their entire lineage has
Speaker 1: got here because of vegetables and fruit, right you wouldn't
Speaker 1: have made it through winners. Everybody's eight bear, cougar, der, elk, sheep, buffalo, beef,
Speaker 1: whatever it has been to be at the point there
Speaker 1: their life. Somewhere in their lineage. I'm gonna I'm gonna
Speaker 1: guess I'm sure somebody could show some examples. But what
Speaker 1: Disney and and other cartoon makers and book writers have
Speaker 1: did is they've romanticized these same critters into their their books.
Speaker 1: You know, their their kid books, and you know their stories.
Speaker 1: You know, you got you've got movies made about you know,
Speaker 1: pet bears or bears that save people, and you got
Speaker 1: movies that are and then all of a sudden, so
Speaker 1: they use that against us and then they go after Hey,
Speaker 1: we're gonna go after bears and cat hunters first, right,
Speaker 1: if you like to hunt cougars, if you like to
Speaker 1: hunt bears, if you're one of those really really bad
Speaker 1: hunters need to use dog to kill those, Like, we're
Speaker 1: really gonna go out for you, because that's number one.
Speaker 1: You hate your own pack.
Speaker 2: Of dogs because it's animal abuse.
Speaker 1: Right, you're gonna use your hounds, and then you're gonna
Speaker 1: chase this poor critter up into a tree and then
Speaker 1: you're gonna kill it because you suck really bad at hunting,
Speaker 1: And so they go after I don't want to call
Speaker 1: it the low hanging fruit, but I feel like society
Speaker 1: is like set this scenario up, like we're gonna put
Speaker 1: these cute little critters we're gonna make cougars and bears
Speaker 1: cute little critters. We're gonna put them in these books
Speaker 1: and put them in movies, and then we're gonna go
Speaker 1: get rid of those first, right, or I mean, we
Speaker 1: can even take it to the extent of Bambi like
Speaker 1: that thing did Hunter is the biggest disservice in the world, right,
Speaker 1: because there's a family a deer, and and in that
Speaker 1: movie the family and the mom and the dad gets
Speaker 1: separated and whatever it is that you know where I'm
Speaker 1: going with it. But then they they take that and
Speaker 1: then use the word trophy hunting and then try to
Speaker 1: take some of that away from us.
Speaker 2: And then they depict hunters as these drunken buffoons, you know,
Speaker 2: you know, just low iqbe drunken buffoons, stumble in through
Speaker 2: the forest shooting everything indiscriminately.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: You know, they just demonize hunters that way. So immediately
Speaker 2: as a child, you know like, oh, hunters they're bad.
Speaker 2: Look at that guy's a jerk.
Speaker 1: You know, yep. And I mean it's funny and you
Speaker 1: can't look at the extremes all the time, but you're
Speaker 1: like the you know, who would they want to have
Speaker 1: around if if they couldn't grow a garden and all
Speaker 1: you know, the world went the hell in a handbasket.
Speaker 1: Tomorrow you're gonna need the we've got. The hunters have
Speaker 1: the skills, whether you're a trophy hunter or meat hunter,
Speaker 1: to like feed you and keep you alive. So it's
Speaker 1: like you can depict this as as drunken buffoons and
Speaker 1: idiots that can't but most hunters I've met are pretty
Speaker 1: damn handy. They can take care of themselves. And but
Speaker 1: it's it's one of those you know the criticism of
Speaker 1: trophy huntings that were out there, you know Spring Bear
Speaker 1: in Washington, like, Oh, these guys suck so bad at
Speaker 1: bear hunting in the fall that they've got to go
Speaker 1: kill these lethargic bears when they get out of the den. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well that's that doesn't help us, like they but but
Speaker 1: it's not founded in science, Like, oh, a new study
Speaker 1: just came out the bears are more active as soon
Speaker 1: as they come out of the den to like quickly
Speaker 1: replenish their calorie deficite. You're like, well that, you know,
Speaker 1: but they throw a trophy on in they throw false
Speaker 1: information and it's a it's a campaign and it seems
Speaker 1: to be more out West. They just leave the white
Speaker 1: tails and stuff alone. But it's like out West, you know,
Speaker 1: these these predators, these alpha predators, whether it's you know,
Speaker 1: wolves or if you're a wolf hun or your trophy hunter,
Speaker 1: because you're not gonna eat the meat right like, or
Speaker 1: I'm trying to balance wildlife since they're out of balance,
Speaker 1: or you're, you know, a bear hunter, and so like perception,
Speaker 1: I feel like as a trophy hunter, and it's not
Speaker 1: even really trophy hunting. They're just they're using that wording
Speaker 1: to target things that they don't want to see us do,
Speaker 1: and they're just they're trying to pick the easiest one
Speaker 1: to get because of those voters or because of those
Speaker 1: lawmakers that will side with them because they're cute and cuddly, yeah,
Speaker 1: which has got lumped into trophy on. Yeah.
Speaker 2: They just take everything out of context, is what they do.
Speaker 2: You know, they love all hunters in with trophy hunting,
Speaker 2: and we'll have a whole bunch of people, the majority
Speaker 2: of people will probably be like, now, man, I'm just
Speaker 2: gonna take the first legal animal I can and go
Speaker 2: home with some meat, you know, And so they take
Speaker 2: offense by that, which they should, but they the media
Speaker 2: and the anti hunting crew, they're they're just trying to
Speaker 2: demonize hunting in general. And I think, you know, like
Speaker 2: what we saw here in Colorado with the whole trying
Speaker 2: to get rid of mountain lion hunting there, it didn't pass,
Speaker 2: and I almost think it might have backfired a little
Speaker 2: bit because so much information got put out into the
Speaker 2: world about what mountain lion hunting and management is all about,
Speaker 2: and might have enlightened a lot of new people that like,
Speaker 2: oh I didn't know about that, you know, maybe they'd
Speaker 2: even vote vote on it, maybe, you know, but they
Speaker 2: like they got a different perspective. So I think if
Speaker 2: anything good came out of that, then I think just
Speaker 2: more information out there in the world from another side
Speaker 2: instead of that one sided media.
Speaker 1: So I got a question for you, you know, kind
Speaker 1: of rolling the meat hunting. If we had to separate
Speaker 1: the two, which I have a hard time doing, I
Speaker 1: think it's a very blurred line. I just think it
Speaker 1: met you know, the only difference is the age or
Speaker 1: the quality of animal you're willing to take. Why is
Speaker 1: meat hunting, seeing it as more in your opinion, more
Speaker 1: universally acceptable, why does it face less, you know, backlash
Speaker 1: from the public.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think that because they, like I say,
Speaker 2: they kind of there try to paint that narrative of
Speaker 2: some rich jerk going out and just killing stuff with
Speaker 2: his check book instead of you know, just you know,
Speaker 2: they don't even talk about the meat being utilized, you know,
Speaker 2: like any of these African animals. They it matt about.
Speaker 2: You know, the villagers eat every bit of that animal,
Speaker 2: like everything, They use every bit of it. They use
Speaker 2: the hide, they use the bones, they use everything. But
Speaker 2: you'll never see that, you know, on their narrative. They'll
Speaker 2: just like, oh, this guy paid three hundred thousand dollars
Speaker 2: to shoot Cecial the lion.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well I'm pretty sure the villagers ate Cecil the lion, yeah,
Speaker 2: and made something out of your skin.
Speaker 1: Or they were able to use or they're able to
Speaker 1: use that money to create a new water system like
Speaker 1: you know or whatever schools you know, vital Yeah, like, oh,
Speaker 1: we'll forget about like the good deeds that are done
Speaker 1: to the you know. And and obviously the biologists at
Speaker 1: some point had said this lion needs to or it
Speaker 1: can be taken out of the the you know, the area. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it was acceptable. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: It helped those local folks live another year, you know,
Speaker 2: in a in a hostile environment where food and money
Speaker 2: doesn't come easy.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, our Western opinion, in Western culture, we we don't
Speaker 2: even understand what those poor folks go through over there
Speaker 2: to to live every day. And I think nobody ever
Speaker 2: thinks about that when they get incensed about oh that
Speaker 2: guy killed it a zebra or that guy killed a
Speaker 2: giraffe or what? How dare them? You know, that's it's
Speaker 2: a different world there, yep.
Speaker 1: And I've always just struggled why does it face less
Speaker 1: public backlash than trophy hunting. I've got a tag, I'm
Speaker 1: making a decision again, and the chances that there's I'm
Speaker 1: reiterating a lot of my points, there's a chance that
Speaker 1: more animals are going to survive by me, you know,
Speaker 1: setting setting a bar than not. So why is there
Speaker 1: less public backlash? Is it because the word we put
Speaker 1: in front of hunting is I'm out there for a
Speaker 1: different reason though No, I'm still out there to fill
Speaker 1: the freezer. I just like it's just baffling to me,
Speaker 1: and it's it's the most quick reduction, Like a lot
Speaker 1: of times things are more complex or nuanced, like all right,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of you know, stuff to navigate here.
Speaker 1: I'm like, no, it's literally me doing the exact same thing.
Speaker 1: I just pulled the trigger on something a little different
Speaker 1: that that you know has a higher probability that something lives.
Speaker 1: Like you should hate meat hunting more than trophy hunting
Speaker 1: if you had to, if you had to pick something,
Speaker 1: like you should you know, anti hunters should hate meat
Speaker 1: hunting way more than they hate trophy hunting.
Speaker 2: Right, because there's more lives, animal lives being lost to
Speaker 2: meat hunting than the trophy hunting.
Speaker 1: Because I don't understand it's more selective, right, yep, yep,
Speaker 1: you know it's like, oh, meat hunters they have a
Speaker 1: better connection to nature. I'm like no, Usually I'm out
Speaker 1: in the woods longer if i'm if I'm after it,
Speaker 1: So my connection to nature is better. I feel like
Speaker 1: I'm more in tune, Like I've got to think more,
Speaker 1: Like I can go to as I'm just not meant
Speaker 1: to sound that way. I'm not saying I'm that good,
Speaker 1: but like I can go to most places and kill
Speaker 1: something that's legal very quickly. Right, I've got to be
Speaker 1: dialed in, like where's the most mature animal in the
Speaker 1: mountain gonna live? Or like where's a nook and cranny,
Speaker 1: Like it's sometimes a harder place to get to, not always,
Speaker 1: but like I'm having to think more versus so in
Speaker 1: my opinion, that's bilding a deeper appreciation for the wildlife
Speaker 1: and what it takes to get to that age and maturity.
Speaker 1: And they've got an ability to think different. So I
Speaker 1: don't understand how a meat hunter, you know, the argument,
Speaker 1: Oh they're they're really connected to nature, or they've got
Speaker 1: a more appreciation for the wildlife they're hunting. Like, No,
Speaker 1: I don't buy it. Like it can be equivalent but
Speaker 1: not more.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it's just pure and simple that
Speaker 2: it's a lot harder to demonize someone who is hunting
Speaker 2: for sustenance, you know. And I think the last I
Speaker 2: don't know, five years or better, I'm like there's a
Speaker 2: lot of I think a lot of more people who
Speaker 2: are more enlightened and like less against hunting. Now now
Speaker 2: that the kind of the everybody's all the meat industry
Speaker 2: and everything, they'll have the whistle blown on them, right,
Speaker 2: everybody's starting to see all the crap they put in
Speaker 2: our food. They're poisoning us with all this stuff. That's
Speaker 2: a completely different rabbit hole. But I think a lot
Speaker 2: of people are awakening to the fact that like the
Speaker 2: stuff you buy it at the store isn't maybe necessarily
Speaker 2: that healthy. So wild meat, wild game is a lot
Speaker 2: healthier for you. And the conditions at livestock are held
Speaker 2: in you know, feed yards, all these different places. It's
Speaker 2: not the it's not a pretty picture. It's not a
Speaker 2: it's not a great picture. Whereas a deer or elk,
Speaker 2: they lived a beautiful free life their whole life, and
Speaker 2: finally one day a hunter took their life, put them
Speaker 2: down humanly. They didn't get eaten to death while they're
Speaker 2: eaten alive by coyotes, wolves, bears, cougars, whatever. They didn't
Speaker 2: get killed in a brutal fashion by nature per se.
Speaker 2: They're taken down by a hunter. But as humans, we
Speaker 2: are part of nature. We've been part of nature since
Speaker 2: the dawn of time. So to take to say that
Speaker 2: it's not natural for a hunter to kill an animal
Speaker 2: is hogwash. It's preposterous. You know, we've been here since
Speaker 2: the animals have been here, yep, And so it is natural.
Speaker 2: It is a natural thing for us to kill, to
Speaker 2: kill an animal. But back to your point, Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: just easier to demonize, you know it. You can make
Speaker 2: trophy hunting look bad and and poo poo on that
Speaker 2: way easier than you can just someone sustin it's hunting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, now it's it's a it's a tricky subject. I
Speaker 1: feel like those that hunt, whether for me or trophy hunting,
Speaker 1: like understand it very clearly. It's not that you know,
Speaker 1: it's not that different. I feel like the the the
Speaker 1: the shade has been cast from outside the arena and
Speaker 1: we're kind of left to deal with it. But I
Speaker 1: I do kind of to go back to my point,
Speaker 1: I feel like as hunters, we need to do a
Speaker 1: better job of explaining why we do exactly what we
Speaker 1: do and and you know, to kind of kind of
Speaker 1: wrap this thing up. It was just kind of a
Speaker 1: conversation on trophy hunting in our own opinions, but we
Speaker 1: just need to do a better job as hunting, you know,
Speaker 1: as hunters as a collective group, explaining why we do
Speaker 1: what we do. And back to my opinion, and it's
Speaker 1: the easy way out, But as long as the biologists
Speaker 1: agree that there should be tags. You've got to tag
Speaker 1: for that unit and the animal that you shoots legal
Speaker 1: and you're not wasting anything. Like who am I to
Speaker 1: say what you should be doing while you're out there.
Speaker 1: If you want to shoot a spike that's a you know,
Speaker 1: a year and a half old or a the button buck,
Speaker 1: because that's what you want to do, or you need
Speaker 1: to meet by all means do it. If you want
Speaker 1: to go out there and never shoot, you know, you
Speaker 1: you could have killed hundreds of animals and you shoot
Speaker 1: one every ten years because you only want the biggest
Speaker 1: thing ever to put on your wall. As long as
Speaker 1: you're taking the meat home, by all means, do it.
Speaker 1: But I I always kind of joke these meat hunters.
Speaker 1: I would love to be there with a meat hunter
Speaker 1: and set a big old, you know, four point a
Speaker 1: giant four point buck alongside of a spike and see
Speaker 1: which one they shoot. And I would even take it
Speaker 1: as far as put a giant four point buck next
Speaker 1: to a spike bowl, maybe a little more meat on
Speaker 1: the spike bowl, and we'll see which one they shoot.
Speaker 1: We're all meat hunters, quote unquote meat hunters until something
Speaker 1: BIG's around I think there's a very few, very few
Speaker 1: guys that they are gals or hunters in general. They
Speaker 1: were like, yeah, I'll take the less the less mature,
Speaker 1: or the less impressive animal. You can talk a big
Speaker 1: game until you're in the situation that everybody turns into
Speaker 1: a trophy hunter.
Speaker 2: Right right, I mean that would probably be true in
Speaker 2: most cases. I will say my dad would tell me
Speaker 2: every time i'd leave the house to go hunting when
Speaker 2: I was a kid, he'd be like, Hey, now, don't
Speaker 2: be shooting none of them big stinky bucks or big
Speaker 2: stinky bulls. Try to get a nice dry dough or
Speaker 2: a nice dry cow if you can. He would tell
Speaker 2: me that every time, And when I'd come home with
Speaker 2: a bowl or a buck, He's just like, Ah, what'd
Speaker 2: you kill this thing for? Oh, this thing's been rotten.
Speaker 2: It's stakes, you know, the hair, the fur stinks or whatever.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's a tricky subject. I just uh,
Speaker 1: like I say, there's trophy honting in my opinions, just
Speaker 1: meat hunting. Uh. For a little more meat and a
Speaker 1: little better warns is all. That's the only difference. Umanized
Speaker 1: demonized by the outside and anything you have to add
Speaker 1: Dirk or anything we need to close off with. I
Speaker 1: know this is you know, Christmas is right around the corner.
Speaker 1: I'll let you do your spill. You're you have a
Speaker 1: better like ADS marked you.
Speaker 2: I need to use my my announcer, radio announcer.
Speaker 1: You can use whatever voice you want. I don't want
Speaker 1: to steal your thunder here at you.
Speaker 2: No, no, not yeah. With Christmas around the corner, you know,
Speaker 2: don't forget your favorite elk hunter or deer hunter. We
Speaker 2: do have stocking stuffers at Phelipsgame Calls dot Com. Don't
Speaker 2: want to be a big pushy salesman here, but don't Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I think of your your favorite hunter and and we've
Speaker 2: got some cool stuff that doesn't break the bank and
Speaker 2: can fill stocking or or you know, maybe they want
Speaker 2: that beautiful beegle tube that you know that's their main present.
Speaker 2: I mean I would kill for one of those. And
Speaker 2: I was, you know, when I was a kid. You know,
Speaker 2: somebody about me bugle tube.
Speaker 1: So so if you were a meat hunter, or what
Speaker 1: elk you get, if you're a trophy hunter, what elk
Speaker 1: called you get? I should have answered.
Speaker 2: That, Well, I'm just gonna be honest if if you
Speaker 2: just want to take home, if you want to be
Speaker 2: a tag notcher, you just need to get a Maverick.
Speaker 1: Maverick. If you want to be a trophy hunter, then
Speaker 1: you get.
Speaker 2: The pink no, you get the no, and you get
Speaker 2: the Maverick. The I mean, the Maverick will do everything.
Speaker 2: I mean you're dogging off. Get a Maverick. Wife left
Speaker 2: your Maverick.
Speaker 1: Boy, it's getting deep at Maverick. If you're listening right
Speaker 1: now and you're in a safe spot, you should start
Speaker 1: rolling up your pants because it's getting deep. Good. All right, Well,
Speaker 1: thanks for jumping on, Derek. It was, like I said,
Speaker 1: it was just something that popped up and wanted to
Speaker 1: switch a little bit from tips and tactics and yeah,
Speaker 1: just go out there and hunt because you love it.
Speaker 1: You know, hunt because you want to fill the freezer
Speaker 1: with organic meat that's not you know, add hormones injected it.
Speaker 1: Whatever it is, just go out and hunt because you
Speaker 1: love it. Whether it's family and friends, whether it's telling stories,
Speaker 1: whether it's drinks around the campfire, whether it's whatever it is,
Speaker 1: go out there and do it as long as it's legal,
Speaker 1: and don't worry about what anybody else, you know, questions
Speaker 1: you're reasoning for doing it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but but have self awareness to know that if
Speaker 2: you're gonna put that stuff out there, if you're gonna
Speaker 2: put share your pictures, your success photos or your hunting
Speaker 2: trip photos, always give context, you know. Don't just say
Speaker 2: guild this buck got her done, you know, tell tell
Speaker 2: about it, why.
Speaker 1: What you know?
Speaker 2: Expand on it. This isn't just a bang bang, shoot
Speaker 2: them up thing, you know. Expand why why do you
Speaker 2: kill that? Why do you enjoyed the hunt? Why you
Speaker 2: enjoyed your friends? Yeah, I mean you have to, you
Speaker 2: have to you know. Yeah, we shouldn't have to answer
Speaker 2: to anyone. Absolutely I agree with that, And I take
Speaker 2: I take offense by trying to like have to appease
Speaker 2: all these you know, anti hunting people. I'm not really
Speaker 2: trying to appease any anti hunting. Those people are already gone.
Speaker 2: There're no convincing them that hunting is good. But people
Speaker 2: who who are watching silently, quietly, who are on the fence,
Speaker 2: who don't hunt, And if you paint a really nice picture,
Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, I like that. You know, camaraderie, family friends,
Speaker 2: you know, found a you know, you know, want to
Speaker 2: spend a full season hunting, trying to find a mature animal,
Speaker 2: not just to kill and discriminately whatever. I mean, if
Speaker 2: you can paint a great picture, it just leaves a
Speaker 2: better taste in people's mouth. It just does.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we're you brought up another point. We're trying
Speaker 1: to wrap this up and we just keep going. We're
Speaker 1: not the judge and jury. But I'd also urge people
Speaker 1: that there's some stuff left that's left to be on
Speaker 1: your phone and not meant for social media. Like like
Speaker 1: Dirk said, he's not trying to pease anybody, but there
Speaker 1: are things that can do harm. They keep it on
Speaker 1: your phone, share it with friends and family, even if
Speaker 1: you want to share it. Like some stuff, there's just
Speaker 1: stuff I'm not proud of that happens, like life or
Speaker 1: death out there. It's real. It affects me, like just
Speaker 1: we don't.
Speaker 2: Have to show it, right, you don't have to share
Speaker 2: that with the world. Yeah, there's just something you know,
Speaker 2: and I feel like, you know, just have a little decency. Hello,
Speaker 2: respect for the animal, have a respect for the people
Speaker 2: who Let's just say, you know, I've spent a lifetime
Speaker 2: hunting and I grew up in a household with a
Speaker 2: different mindset versus people who've never been hunting, and if
Speaker 2: they see something that's like maybe commonplace, like a gratuitous
Speaker 2: headshot of an animal or or something else, that is
Speaker 2: beyond disturbing for them because they're not used to seeing
Speaker 2: an animal die, they're not used to seeing someone take
Speaker 2: a life, and what might be kind of commonplace or
Speaker 2: like desensitized us because we've been there, done that, whatever,
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean we should maybe share it with the world.
Speaker 2: Those those I've and I've seen some and I've been around.
Speaker 2: I've been around, I've shot a lot of animals, and
Speaker 2: I've seen some videos where people like, you know, like
Speaker 2: some gratuitous headshot of an animal. It's disgusting. I don't want.
Speaker 2: I don't want to see that. I don't. I don't.
Speaker 2: I can guarantee nobody else wants to see that. It's
Speaker 2: it ain't cool.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you if you want to show us how
Speaker 1: good of a shot you are, go shoot a paper
Speaker 1: target and share that, like is it hunter? You can
Speaker 1: give somebody a fist pump like great shot, but we
Speaker 1: leave it at that, like that stays in the woods.
Speaker 1: The the mess is there. You nobody needs to see it, nobody.
Speaker 1: And as a hunter that you know, you know, just
Speaker 1: like you dealt with a lot of life and death
Speaker 1: and and and you know you wanted to be quick
Speaker 1: and ethical, like just just leave it off there. I
Speaker 1: know we're going down a different rabbit hole, but God,
Speaker 1: I think sometimes we're our worst, our own worst enemies,
Speaker 1: like clean ethical, you know, limit it to the the
Speaker 1: I don't even I'm to the point maybe I'm getting softer.
Speaker 1: Like I was watching something I was sick the other
Speaker 1: day and I was watching a lot of white til
Speaker 1: hunting on TV. Some people edit out. They'll show you
Speaker 1: the shot, and then they'll like show you the animal
Speaker 1: dead across the field, and then some people show you
Speaker 1: like the deer running all over spinning or like staggering
Speaker 1: for minutes with blood. I'm like, I don't want to
Speaker 1: see that either.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like disturbing just a lot of people.
Speaker 1: I don't like that. I don't like that moment of
Speaker 1: time between the shot hitting it and the animal being
Speaker 1: like fully fully expired. Like I don't like that timeline
Speaker 1: at all. I don't like anything about it.
Speaker 2: I don't I don't like watching it myself. I don't
Speaker 2: like to see. I don't like to sit there and
Speaker 2: watch the animal, you know, slowly let life slip from
Speaker 2: its eyes or you know, from its body, like in
Speaker 2: the blood whatever. I don't I don't take joy and
Speaker 2: seeing that. I don't. I don't, I don't watch that.
Speaker 2: It's it is disturbing. Even as a hunter, I've I've
Speaker 2: killed lots of animals, and I don't take any kind
Speaker 2: of joy in seeing that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So there's a public service announcement for everybody.
Speaker 2: Let's let's go back to the trophy hunting things. They
Speaker 2: will lump that right in with trophy hunt. They will
Speaker 2: take those examples, say look at what this trophy hunter did. Yep,
Speaker 2: and it just gives it gives us a bad name,
Speaker 2: a bad bad look.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, thank you everybody for tuning into cutting in
Speaker 1: the distance.
Speaker 2: Thanks guys at