1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: Body dyers, but Joseph's gotten more malignant heart. That's not 2 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:19,119 Speaker 1: necessarily two words that you would commonly hear used in 3 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 1: concert with one another. I came across this term the 4 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: first time I ever looked at the murder statute in 5 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: the state of Georgia when I first arrived, because I'd 6 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: never heard of a charge before coming from Louisiana of 7 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: something called malice murder. And that's actually the way they 8 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 1: define it now. Me being a scientist, I don't necessarily 9 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: prefer the term murder. It's a lawyer's word. I like 10 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: the word homicide. But just so that we understand, with 11 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 1: a malignant heart being one of the components of malice murder, 12 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: it actually kind of plays out like this, when a 13 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: person causes the death of another human being with an 14 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: abandoned and malignant heart. I don't know that kind of 15 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: defines the ultimate into pravity, doesn't it to no longer care, 16 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: or that maybe you never cared and you diminish the 17 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: person to the point where you could rutalize them. Well, 18 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: today we're going to discuss not one, but two two 19 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: cases that are actually intertwined. A brother and sister that 20 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: lost their lives over thirty years ago and their cases 21 00:01:54,560 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: have been solved. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is 22 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: body backs. Horrible stuff here, Dave. These two cases. Yeah, yeah, 23 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: I know, yeah, there ain't no thinking to it. This 24 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 1: is and you know, the thing about it is is 25 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: that you know, when you're you're dealing with a case 26 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: like this or cases rather, it's uh those that are 27 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: left behind the the family member, the family members of 28 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 1: the Sumpters. It it's one of these things that they 29 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: just they die over and over and over again. Uh, 30 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: you know, in the minds of the family because there's 31 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: no answers, there's nothing that has led to the solving 32 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: of a case of course until recently and an adjudication actually, 33 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:59,079 Speaker 1: so yeah, I was anxious to get into this case 34 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: or cases with you and kind of pull it apart 35 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 1: and talk about it a little bit today here on 36 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:05,359 Speaker 1: Body Batterge. 37 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 2: It's one of the one of the many things that 38 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 2: I have learned since beginning the show with you and 39 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 2: learning about AUTHORAM and what they have done, the work 40 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 2: that Authoram does, and you explained it to me, you know, 41 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 2: and I didn't have a frame of reference. You know, 42 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 2: I'm not a scientist. Guy. I'm a broadcaster and I 43 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 2: specialize in certain things. But you know, really and truly, 44 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,239 Speaker 2: when you get into the science of this, it's beyond 45 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 2: what most people have the ability to comprehend. And one 46 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 2: thing I do understand is a lack of funding and 47 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 2: how difficult it is. The work that AUTHORAM is doing 48 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 2: is life altering for those left behind. Solving crimes by 49 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 2: science is amazing. And the work that they do is 50 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 2: so intense that they actually have a timer on each 51 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,040 Speaker 2: of the scientists and how long they can work in 52 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 2: a row on a particular thing, because it does get 53 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 2: so intense. But the bottom line, yeah, and you know again, 54 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 2: I go back to you telling me what was going on, 55 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 2: and I had no idea that they had to actually crowdfund. 56 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 2: I thought there was this bucket and based on what 57 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 2: we have learned recently about government waste, I don't know 58 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 2: why there hasn't been a bucket of money waiting for 59 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 2: them whenever they need something, just to grab a scoop 60 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 2: of cash, boom, get it done. But authoram is actually 61 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 2: crowdfunding people like you and me writing small donations are 62 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 2: actually helping to provide answers to questions that families have 63 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 2: been asking for decades, and in this particular case, it's 64 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:44,719 Speaker 2: a crime that occurred July fifteenth, nineteen ninety. Now where 65 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 2: were you? Think about it? Friends, where were you July fifteenth, 66 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:53,720 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety and realize that is the time since then 67 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 2: we're looking at thirty five years. Yep, brother and sister 68 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 2: were murdered and they didn't have an answer. Who did it? 69 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 2: How can we prove it? And it wasn't something they 70 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 2: didn't look into. It was investigated. You have an attack 71 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 2: that happens at an apartment complex on Tree Hills Parkway. 72 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:18,160 Speaker 2: This is into cab County, Georgia. Now police arrived. Pamela 73 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 2: Sumter is forty three. She's able to tell officers that 74 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 2: she has been raped and stabbed, and that her brother, 75 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 2: forty six year old John Sumter, has also been stabbed 76 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 2: and possibly is dead in the apartment next door. Think 77 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 2: about that for a minute. She's able to tell police, 78 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 2: I know I was raped, I've been stabbed, She knows 79 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 2: she's breathing some of her last probably and tells them 80 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 2: my brother might be dead next door. She's able to 81 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 2: give police just enough information that they can begin an investigation, 82 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 2: and without that we wouldn't have the results that we 83 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 2: end up having thirty five years later, Joe, still an 84 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 2: awfully long time. So starting at July fifteen, nineteen ninety, 85 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 2: the stabbing deaths, I do want to point out one 86 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:11,359 Speaker 2: thing that Pamela did not die immediately. It was some 87 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 2: time in between. You know, she languished for a few 88 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 2: days before she actually passed away, but she was able 89 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 2: to give police enough information to begin the investigation. So 90 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 2: starting there, how did we get how did we get 91 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 2: lost along the way with having that much information, Joe, 92 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 2: we started July fifteen, nineteen ninety, We've got the stabbing 93 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 2: death of John Sumter. We have Pamela Sumter has been 94 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 2: raped and stabbed, and she has actually told police enough 95 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 2: information that they can begin an investigation. Because she doesn't 96 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 2: die right then. Her brother was dead, but she did 97 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 2: not die for another two weeks. But she was fatally 98 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 2: Is it called fatally or mortally wounded? Right when somebody 99 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 2: had the injuries that lead to death. 100 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that the mortal wound, you know, implies 101 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: that it's going to be unsurvivable. 102 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 2: Uh. 103 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: And here's here's the thing, is you don't know, you know, 104 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: when clinicians are going in to assess an individual, particularly 105 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: if they've been stabbed multiple times. Uh, as crass as 106 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: it sounds. You're you're essentially puncturing the body multiple times. 107 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: And uh, not only are you affecting you know that 108 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: kind of uh top layer of the body where you're 109 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: passing through all kinds of vessels. Uh, you might even 110 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: be breaking bones with a knife. We know that a 111 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: knife was involved. But then you get into the various 112 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 1: organ systems and this is not something that's ordered like surgery. Okay, 113 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: You've you've got this kind of randomized stabbing most of 114 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: the times, and cuts that happen all over the body. 115 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: So yeah, you never know where you know, with every 116 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: stab that comes along, suddenly the the chances of survival 117 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: are you know, percentage wise are diminished every time. Did 118 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: the surgeon get everything when they're doing emergency surgery to 119 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: try to get these things closed off? Micro vessels and 120 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: all those sorts of things. But yeah, so she lingered 121 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 1: for two weeks, Dave, and she did give a description 122 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: of the individual. And when you think about genetics, a 123 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 1: big tail here is she's saying that she was raped. Okay, 124 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: that's very important. You know they would have done this 125 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: is not like, this is kind of this is kind 126 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:45,839 Speaker 1: of fascinating. They would not have done a rape kit 127 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 1: on her at the morgue because if she lingered for 128 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: two weeks, okay, she lingered for two weeks, then just 129 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 1: being in the hospital for two weeks is going to 130 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: all of your evidence is going to be gone by 131 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: that time. Okay, So they would have done in the 132 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: state that she was in, Dave, just imagine this, this 133 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: trauma that she had endured, they would have done a 134 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:15,079 Speaker 1: rape kit on her, maybe you know, in the emergency 135 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,439 Speaker 1: room while they're trying to save her life, because they 136 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: understand the importance of this genetic material. Even in nineteen 137 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: ninety now, we didn't have We did not have the 138 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: same technology obviously, and I know we harp on this 139 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: all the time. We did not have the same level 140 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: of technology. This even predates you know, John Bennet, and 141 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 1: you know a lot of hay is being made over 142 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: her and her case. You know, what can they kind 143 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 1: of you know, conjure up relative to those the events 144 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 1: surrounding that case. That was in the mid nineties, so 145 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:58,439 Speaker 1: this is actually five years earlier, and you think about it. 146 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:03,959 Speaker 1: The sad simple that they would have needed back then 147 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: in order to try to begin a DNA assessment relative 148 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: to the perpetrator was really significant, particularly when you think 149 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 1: about blood evidence and all that sort of thing. 150 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 2: Okay, so if she doesn't tell them that she was raped, 151 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 2: they're going to focus on her injuries and trying to 152 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:22,679 Speaker 2: save her life. But they're not going to do rape kit. 153 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 2: I mean, they're they're going to. 154 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 1: Do they're going to do a rape kit either way. 155 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: I just it's just one of those little little things 156 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:32,559 Speaker 1: that you think about as a death investigator that and 157 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: this goes this goes to the mentality of the investigators 158 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: at that time and also the nursing staff that they 159 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 1: saw the need they saw the need to go to. 160 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: Because you've got a woman that is actually verbalizing. I 161 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 1: mean she's saying I was raped, okay. 162 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 2: And my brother is probably dead next to her. 163 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, she's able to to give them a tremendous amount 164 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: of dat uh, you know, And that's just not something 165 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: many times that you come across, and it's kind of 166 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 1: a these cases, the cases like this are outlayers relative 167 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 1: to where you have a homicide case where you've got 168 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,559 Speaker 1: a rape victim who will in fact become a murder 169 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 1: victim because she succumbs in two weeks. Where you know, 170 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:32,319 Speaker 1: you've got this kind of statement that is made, and 171 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 1: here's something that that you know, our our listeners, you know, 172 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 1: might not be aware of. There's this idea of what's 173 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: referred to as a dying declaration. I've always been fascinated 174 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: by this and the way the court looks at this 175 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: information that is conveyed by somebody, and I always imagine 176 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: it like in I have this kind of dramatic thing 177 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:02,080 Speaker 1: in my mind where dying declaration. You've got somebody that's 178 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,080 Speaker 1: rolling Code three. They're in the back of an ambulance, 179 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: lights and sirens, and you've got some orderly e MT 180 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: or maybe even a cop that's sitting on the bench 181 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: in the back of the ambulance. The person's covered in blood, 182 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 1: they're all traumatized, and they're saying it was so and 183 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: so and then they gassed their last breath, and all 184 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 1: the while this information is being written down or recorded 185 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: and that yeah, that's that's kind of a dying declaration. 186 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: But you've got a woman that that lingered for two weeks, Dave. 187 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: Now we don't really know her clinical status if she 188 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,439 Speaker 1: drifted into a coma and then she was just kind 189 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: of in that stasis you know, which you go into, 190 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: you know, as a result of blood loss. But here's 191 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 1: the interesting thing about dying declaration is that if the 192 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 1: subject gives a declarative statement about you know, a perpetrator 193 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 1: and they don't I, that statement essentially becomes invalid. It's 194 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 1: not as valid and powerful as a dying declaration. So 195 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: what this poor woman Pamela offered up at that moment 196 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: in time ultimately was a huge piece to solving this 197 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: case where you know her what she had gone through, 198 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: and also obviously we can't forget about her her brother, 199 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: who she says, he's probably dead in the adjacent in 200 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: the adjacent apartment. So you know, that statement would have 201 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: been it would have been less impactful. And the way 202 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: the court looks at it, apparently is that if the defense, 203 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: you know, there's nobody to be cross examined at that 204 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: point in time for the defense, and so that's a 205 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: it's very very powerful if you can anchor if you 206 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: can anchor that statement in the early beginnings of the investigation. 207 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 2: All right, well, let me ask you this, Joe, because again, 208 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 2: not being a medical guy, not being a scientist. To me, 209 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 2: it seems like she's able to describe or give them 210 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 2: the basics of what is transpired. I think my brother's dad, 211 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 2: I've been raped, and she's able to talk to them 212 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 2: enough to communicate all of what has taken place. Now 213 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 2: they're able to get her to the hospital, and then, 214 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 2: as you mentioned, we don't know if she drifted off 215 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 2: into a coma or what happened, But for her to 216 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 2: have lived for an additional two weeks to have been alive, 217 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 2: I guess in my mind's I'm thinking, wait a minute, 218 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 2: you're alive. When you got at the hospital, They're able 219 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 2: to treat your wounds and to stop whatever internal bleeding 220 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 2: is going on. Why would somebody die like that? It 221 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 2: seems to me, And I know I'm wrong, I just don't. 222 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 2: I can't quite fathom how somebody could survive the injuries 223 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 2: enough to tell you what has happened, get to the hospital, 224 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 2: and remain alive for two weeks. 225 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think the key word here is catastrophic injuries, 226 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: Like there are just some injuries that people sustain, particularly 227 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: if you're going into organ systems. If you think about uh, 228 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: and I you know, again, the authorities have not you know, 229 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: offered up you know, the specifics here relative to to 230 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: the trauma that she sustained the extent of it. However, 231 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: if you're talking about multiple let's just say, for instance, 232 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 1: she had multiple sharp force injuries to the liver. Okay, well, 233 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: one sharp force's entry to the liver is significant, But 234 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: let's just say you got multiple. Oh and by the way, 235 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: yeah we clipped along and oh, by the way, you 236 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: got the spleen, you know, and oh, by the way, 237 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: you got into the bowel. So you've got all this 238 00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: matrix of all of these things that the search have 239 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: to account for in order to sustain life. And we're 240 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: not even talking about we're not even talking about, say, 241 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: for instance, of a long life that can be lived here. 242 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: We're just right now. You know, they can stem the bleeding, 243 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: they can do transfusions, all that sort of thing, but 244 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: how many surgeries can one individual endure, you know, to 245 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: go into those various systems and stem the bleeding permanently 246 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: to get that person on the road to health. And 247 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: you know, with something like a multiple stabbing that has occurred, 248 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: it's just it's catastrophic. That's why, you know, like you know, 249 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: we talk about there's more people in the US from 250 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 1: a trauma standpoint that die in car accidents. Okay, I 251 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: mean you have a lot of motor vehicle fatalities. Well, 252 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: one of the reasons is is that those injury so 253 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,360 Speaker 1: many times can be so extensive, and you know, it's 254 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 1: the it's the tiniest of little things within that within 255 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:11,679 Speaker 1: that matrix, you know, that can lead to death. You 256 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 1: might maybe you will, you'll be able to you know 257 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: fix uh, you know, a ruptured bowel, a vowel has 258 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 1: been torn, but you know it's it's the bone fragment 259 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 1: that got into the liver or got into the lung 260 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: and how do you know it's that's why surgery and 261 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:36,439 Speaker 1: surgeons in particular trauma surgeons are amazing, you know, because 262 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: of what they have to do, all the calculus they 263 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 1: have to do, you know, in their brain to try 264 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 1: to determine how to evaluate. And that's one of the 265 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: things that you know, you talk about triaging patients that 266 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:51,439 Speaker 1: come in and in Pamela's case, they are dealing with 267 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: so much. I think it's a miracle. She probably survived 268 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 1: two weeks and and not just that that she was verbal, 269 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,479 Speaker 1: you know, at the at the front end of this thing, uh, 270 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: you know, and she's been raped on top of it 271 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: and has borne witness to a guy that's been with 272 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:30,399 Speaker 1: her her entire life, her brother. After a period of time, 273 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:40,159 Speaker 1: I'm thinking that the the authorities are believing that, you 274 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:42,959 Speaker 1: know that it's particularly on the front end when you 275 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: get a physical description, and I'm thinking about back then 276 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: you get a physical description of an individual, you're thinking that, well, 277 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 1: we're going to get this thing locked up, We're going 278 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 1: to be able to get this person identified, and we're 279 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:03,479 Speaker 1: going to be able to bring some sense of justice 280 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: to this horrific situation where we've now got two homicide victims. 281 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,439 Speaker 1: Thank god, we've got this bit of data from the 282 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: one surviving victim, who, of course, Pamela eventually dies, and 283 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:23,880 Speaker 1: she's able to give the script of an individual. And 284 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:28,400 Speaker 1: the upside I think for them, and it seems rather benign, 285 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:34,160 Speaker 1: is that you've got a subject that is in fact, 286 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: you know that you're dealing with a male population because 287 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 1: you have a rape at this point in time, So 288 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 1: any mystery there may have been about, you know, was 289 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 1: this a female that came in and attacked this brother 290 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 1: and sister. You know, that's out the window. So you've 291 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: got it narrowed down here. You're looking for a male 292 00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: based upon a physical description. Back then, the best you 293 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:08,919 Speaker 1: could hope for with a and we were just in 294 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 1: the early early stages of having some type of rudimentary 295 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 1: database as it applied to sex offenders and genetic material, 296 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,439 Speaker 1: and it wasn't anything, and they would still have to 297 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: wait a few years before you could actually plug that 298 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 1: data in. So in State of Georgia at you know, 299 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 1: just the local level, they're not getting any hits at 300 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: all as to who who may have been responsible for 301 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 1: let's let's face it, this savagery that was exacted upon 302 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 1: this brother and sister. There's no way that they could 303 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 1: have been able to to really marry this up. I think, uh, 304 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 1: it's it's you know. And all you're left with now 305 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 1: is the words of a woman who's now deceased and 306 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: the evidence that's left behind at the scene, you know, 307 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 1: in the person of her brother. 308 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 2: So, Joe, we've got John Sumter and Pamela Sumter. John 309 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 2: is forty six years old and he is stabbed to 310 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 2: death in his apartment. Pamela Sumter is in a neighbor 311 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 2: apartment next door, according to what she says to police, 312 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,880 Speaker 2: and she's been raped to stab Now she tells police 313 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 2: that John is probably dead in our apartment. And that's 314 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 2: where I keep thinking that police walk into all types 315 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,959 Speaker 2: of different scenarios, Joe, but walking into this one where 316 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 2: they are told by the one of the victims what's 317 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 2: going on. And I have to guess that when police 318 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 2: are hearing a woman who has obviously been stabbed in it, 319 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 2: you know, and is in bad shape, and she's saying 320 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 2: she's been raped, they're trying to figure out what all 321 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 2: was going on? Why is her brother dad? If she 322 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 2: was raped and stabbed, Why is her brother dead? Why 323 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 2: is he over there in a different apartment. Why do 324 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 2: we have two different crime scenes, one with a man 325 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 2: who has been stabbed to death and now a woman 326 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 2: who has been raped in staff. I'm thinking these sound 327 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 2: like two totally different scenarios, two totally different crimes. They 328 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 2: don't say it, They just don't seem like these should 329 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:33,159 Speaker 2: happen together like this, So you begin looking into it. 330 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 2: How do you start What kind of information are police 331 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 2: looking from you? Well? 332 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that probably uh, trying to understand the different. Well, 333 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,359 Speaker 1: let's just look at the blood, okay, because you know, 334 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,440 Speaker 1: we've talked about so many times on body backs relative 335 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,400 Speaker 1: to you know, kind of the commingling of blood and 336 00:22:55,480 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 1: the overlay that takes place when you have multiple vicarvictims 337 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 1: of stab ones or or shootings, you know, where you've 338 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: got copious amounts of blood everywhere. How do you make 339 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: sense of this if they're domiciled together, the brother and sister, 340 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: and they're living in this apartment. The first thing, and 341 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: this is more investigative than it is forensics, however, I 342 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 1: have to say, how bold is it for a perpetrator 343 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:30,680 Speaker 1: to come in and with If you've got this, I 344 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: think this scenario cooked up in your mind as a 345 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: sexual predator where you're fantasizing perhaps about her. You didn't 346 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: case the joint very well because now you're going to 347 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 1: walk into a situation with a grown man in the 348 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 1: same house, and you're going to have to fight through 349 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 1: him to get to her, and then you're still going 350 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: to have to do her in order to carry out 351 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 1: this horror that you're trying to perpetrate. That doesn't sound 352 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 1: like this, I don't know. To me, It doesn't at 353 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: least sound like you've got an individual that has thought 354 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:19,719 Speaker 1: this thing through very much. And when you show up 355 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: to a scene like this, the bloody dynamic in there 356 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 1: where you've got probably with a blood letting like this, 357 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 1: you might have bloody footprints that are all over the place, 358 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: shoeprints in particular. You know, I can only imagine you've 359 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: got two adults that have been stabbed multiple times. You're 360 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: going to have blood that could be tracked through, and 361 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 1: then you're trying to determine I think, well, whose footprints 362 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: are these? Well, you know that if you've got shoeprints 363 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: and both these people are in their home, I don't 364 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 1: know about you. I don't sit around the house in 365 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,439 Speaker 1: my shoes, you know, It's just not something want to do. 366 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: I want to get comfortable. I might be in my 367 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 1: sock feet, you know, or might be barefooted. And you've 368 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: got a perpetrator that walks in and they're wearing some 369 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 1: type of shoe with a very specific pattern on it. 370 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,679 Speaker 1: How how did he track in and track out? And 371 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: did they have evidence of him X filling you know, 372 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: from the apartment, you know, and walking out the door, 373 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 1: going through a window. How did he get access to 374 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:34,160 Speaker 1: both of these individuals to be able to and it's 375 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: not like he shot him, he stabbed both of them. 376 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: Did he show up with a knife that was his 377 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 1: that he chooses to use. And when you have a 378 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,880 Speaker 1: sexual predator, most of them like to use the same 379 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: tools over and over again. You know, this is a 380 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 1: really bold thing to do. You know, you begin to 381 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: think about this and it's like, whoever perpetrated this, this 382 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,880 Speaker 1: is probably not their first rodeo, you know. 383 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,400 Speaker 2: They're interesting that in case, Joe so that when Pamela 384 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 2: Sumpter told police she had been raped and stabbed, she 385 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,160 Speaker 2: actually was able to tell them enough information. She said 386 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 2: that her brother had brought a man to their apartment. 387 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 2: He was down. This is again just outside of Atlanta 388 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:17,120 Speaker 2: into Cap County, Georgia, and she tells police that her 389 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,920 Speaker 2: brother has brought a guy in from Detroit into their apartment. 390 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 2: So she's been able to give them just enough information 391 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 2: to know that whoever did this attack, the first suspect 392 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 2: is the man that came from Detroit that her brother 393 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,640 Speaker 2: brought to their apartment. Now she's not in their apartment 394 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,160 Speaker 2: that she shares with her brother, she's a neighbor apartment. 395 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 2: When she calls police, and police arrived to the standard 396 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 2: somebody stabbed. I don't know what police think when they 397 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:49,159 Speaker 2: go into that. If I got a call said somebody 398 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 2: was stabbed, that would be a little different than a 399 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 2: double homicide in a rape, than a simple stabbing in 400 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:55,399 Speaker 2: an apartment. 401 00:26:55,080 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, yeah, it would be. And well, first off, 402 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: you never know what these uh, these folks are going 403 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 1: to walk into that are you know, taking care of 404 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: us out there law enforcement offers, But you've got obviously violence, 405 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: uh that you're you know that you're having to deal 406 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:15,920 Speaker 1: with when you walk in and you think, well, there's 407 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,399 Speaker 1: been a stabbing, Well, you know, I don't know what 408 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: was going on in a card game and uh, a 409 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:25,640 Speaker 1: dice game, a lover's quarrel. Uh and somebody pulls out 410 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: a blade and stabs somebody, Well that's a. 411 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 2: Stask you very quickly about the blade. You've told me 412 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 2: before about how strangling and knifing are different than a 413 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 2: gunshot because they're so personally you have to be right 414 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 2: their hands on. Is that something that police when they 415 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 2: go into with this scenario that they're thinking, boy, this 416 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 2: is close, this is this is personal? Or is a 417 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 2: knife a weapon of opportunity. I had a knife laying here, 418 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 2: That's what I grabbed. 419 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And it can be it can be a 420 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,640 Speaker 1: weapon of opportunity that you have, uh, you know, lying 421 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,119 Speaker 1: about maybe on a counter or on a knife blow. 422 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 1: You know how many times have we It seems like 423 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: I was doing a show the other day the case 424 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 1: that was being covered, and I don't know if it 425 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 1: was Nancy or who was. 426 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 2: With so many appearances gang, I got to tell you 427 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 2: that Joe Scott Morgan is the most sought after forensic 428 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,159 Speaker 2: guy in America. And I know that there are times 429 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,360 Speaker 2: when I know what our schedule is, you and me, 430 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 2: and I see you on a network at ten thirty 431 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,879 Speaker 2: at night, you know, doing something and it's like in 432 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 2: six hours, I know where he's going to be. You know, 433 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 2: you got to sleep sometimes, Joe, You got to. 434 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 1: You got to sometimes that I've been paying the price 435 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: for lately. How you know, you think about the knife blocks. 436 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: You know, we were just talking about a case I 437 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: was and they all run together, unfortunately, and those are 438 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 1: those are weapons of opportunity. You know, you look over 439 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: with most serialized defense, if you have an individual that 440 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:05,959 Speaker 1: is participating, you know, in this violent sexual fantasy that 441 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 1: they have they're going to carry a knife with them 442 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: if a knife is part of that fantasy, you know, 443 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: part of the attack fantasy that they're you know, and 444 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: that's why the beauty of that for us and forensics 445 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 1: is to try to understand the nature and dimensions of 446 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: the knife. Because what we will do we track knife 447 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: wounds in the morgue just like we do gunshot wounds 448 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: to a great degree. You know, let's say, for instance, 449 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 1: we have a knife wound to the chest. Okay, well, 450 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 1: we're going to do the external examination and we're going 451 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 1: to get the the the depth of the wound. People 452 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: think about that, but there's also the external dimensions of 453 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: the defect that's that's left behind. First off, you have 454 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 1: to be able to categorize it. And the biggest thing 455 00:29:58,080 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 1: with knife wounds is you want to know if it's 456 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 1: a sin or double edged knife. There's not that many 457 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: double edged knives that are out there that you come across. 458 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: You know, you're thinking, when you think double edge, you 459 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: think dagger. Okay, not too many people carry daggers. Now 460 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: you have retractable knives sometimes that will have double edges 461 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 1: to them, and they're brutal injuries to have to deal 462 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 1: with because you're not just cutting on one side, You're 463 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: cutting on two sides and slicing through. Whereas if you 464 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: have single edged knife, the backstrap of that knife is 465 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: a bit more blunted. You know, it might push vessels away, 466 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 1: is not necessarily going to clip vessels, you see what 467 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: I'm saying. And so it's you know, and literally double 468 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 1: edged knife is doubly destructive, okay. And so you think 469 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: about what is the tool that the individual is bringing 470 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: with them, And I think that a lot of the 471 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: psychological types out there that profile these things, you know, 472 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 1: they think about what does the individual feel most comfortable with. 473 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 1: Is it a fixed blade or is it a or 474 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 1: is it a you know, a deployable blade, you know, 475 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 1: like a pocket knife, a buck knife, if you will. 476 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: And so, you know, you try to understand the nature 477 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: of it. You look at it. And one of the 478 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 1: things if you think that it might be a pattern 479 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 1: that's developing relative to an individual that is perpetrating multiple 480 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: of these and they've stabbed other people and yet those 481 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: individuals have survived. Well, is it the same type of blade, okay? 482 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 1: Or does this individual use combination of both an edged 483 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 1: weapon and their bare hands. Do they like to pick 484 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 1: up other things that are at the scene and beat 485 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 1: people with them. You know, you do have that happen 486 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: as well, So there's a lot that you have to 487 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 1: kind of work through relative to what you're seeing at 488 00:31:56,160 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 1: the scene. You know, I've worked cases where I've got 489 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 1: these really violent, violent perpetrators that have not only stabbed 490 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 1: and choked, but they, for instance, they liked to stomp 491 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 1: as well. I remember working a case of an eight 492 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 1: year old girl that this guy had choked this little 493 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: eight year old girl as he sexually assaulted her and 494 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: then stomped her into the ground. He was wearing a 495 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 1: very specific pair of shoes with a distinctive pattern, and 496 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 1: we could still see the pattern on her face. Well, 497 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 1: he had done this to other people over the years, 498 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: and shoes change over a period of time, but the 499 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 1: you know, the methodology is still very much the same. 500 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 1: I'd like to say that police are very frustrated by 501 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: cold cases, and they are, you know, you hear that. 502 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: You can listen to interviews with police officers that you 503 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 1: know long since retired, and it's you know, they describe 504 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: how cases haunt them. And I always find that that fascinating. 505 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 1: I don't think that most people can identify with that 506 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 1: haunting because you know, when you you know, you shut 507 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: your desk stroyer for the last time, and you you know, 508 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 1: you throw the badge up on the desk and you 509 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: hang it up and you're walking out the door. You 510 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 1: still you still have those images in your mind. You know, 511 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: you still have those Uh, you can still see the 512 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 1: family sitting there before you, weeping, and you you're no 513 00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 1: closer to an answer than you were, you know, the 514 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 1: day that the case happened, or at least you would 515 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 1: think that that's the case. And you never know. I 516 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 1: think even as an individual that was intimately involved in 517 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 1: the case, you never know what's really going on, particularly 518 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 1: after you walk away from it. You never really know 519 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 1: what's going on. In this case, Dave, You've got a 520 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 1: you've actually got a DA investigator involved in what's now 521 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 1: thirty five year old cold case that's conducting an audit 522 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 1: of And I hate to reduce it down to this, 523 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: but this is just the way it works. Out of 524 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,720 Speaker 1: all the cold cases that they had in the cap County, Georgia, 525 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:47,840 Speaker 1: he's doing an audit and it's like a probability audit. 526 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: What is what are our best chances of getting a 527 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 1: case off of the books. And in this particular instance, 528 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 1: this de investigator decided to go and not just get one, 529 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,440 Speaker 1: but two off the books and voided he meet with success. 530 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 2: Dave. Yeah, I've looked into this because I've often wondered 531 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:14,920 Speaker 2: Joe money comes into play. Yes, and in the last 532 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:19,320 Speaker 2: since nineteen ninety twill now the technology has changed, you know, 533 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,360 Speaker 2: especially my goodness from ninety to ninety five. You know, 534 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,439 Speaker 2: I think about that, and I think of how much 535 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 2: we learned because of the OJ Simpson trial being on 536 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,279 Speaker 2: broadcast on television. That has to mean something. I think 537 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,320 Speaker 2: it does anyway, because people actually, you know, just regular 538 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 2: people in all walks of life that were interested in 539 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 2: that case because of the former NFL player, Hall of Famer, 540 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,840 Speaker 2: celebrity actor and all that accused of this heinous crime 541 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,279 Speaker 2: against his XBO dealt with domestic abuse and so many 542 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:54,160 Speaker 2: other things. And because of that, we we as a 543 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 2: nation and beyond, looked at it and watched it, and 544 00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,879 Speaker 2: we heard about DNA, We heard about we heard testimony 545 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 2: about blood that we never would have heard except for 546 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:06,840 Speaker 2: that trial being on the air. And I think that 547 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:10,240 Speaker 2: caused a lot of things that we're still thankfully dealing 548 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 2: with now, where I think there's money available on the 549 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 2: federal level that investigators can go back and do an 550 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,319 Speaker 2: audit on. We've got all these unsolved crimes, but in 551 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,479 Speaker 2: this case here from nineteen ninety, we've got blood, we've 552 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,879 Speaker 2: got possible person, we've got a suspect. We couldn't tie 553 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:28,960 Speaker 2: them to them. What can we do now? And so 554 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:32,919 Speaker 2: when they've exhausted all they can do, meaning I'm talking 555 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 2: about investigators at that local level and even at the 556 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:40,760 Speaker 2: state level, sometimes time and money come into play. And 557 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 2: once they gather the info, what do we do with it? 558 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 2: We haven't solved it, We just have the information. And 559 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 2: that's where Authoram comes in, this incredible company that thankfully 560 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,439 Speaker 2: you've introduced us to them and you've explained so much more. 561 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,400 Speaker 2: But all those years later, what do you do, Joe. 562 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,880 Speaker 2: You've got this, You've got this cold case that is 563 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 2: now thirty plus years old. It's a double homicide, that 564 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 2: enter rape that nobody has been punished for. They have 565 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,800 Speaker 2: been that, nobody's been held accountable. Yet you've got people 566 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 2: that are in the grave and their family doesn't know 567 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:16,920 Speaker 2: what happened and how they ended up there. 568 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 1: You hope that, you know, you do hope that there 569 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 1: is I don't know, you're you're looking for You're looking 570 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,400 Speaker 1: for a life ring at this point in time to 571 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:34,400 Speaker 1: try to hopefully, you know, salvage something and you understand 572 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,400 Speaker 1: that the technology is there, and will you have the 573 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,799 Speaker 1: resources to be able to put this forward? And look, 574 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:45,279 Speaker 1: everybody struggles with money and that that extends out to 575 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:50,399 Speaker 1: you know, you've got this this one cop and it's 576 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 1: probably a team, but you know, they've talked extensively about 577 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,760 Speaker 1: the DA investigator in this particular in these particular cases, 578 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 1: and he's not can't reach into his wallet and say, hey, 579 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:03,920 Speaker 1: you know, I'm going to go out here and solve 580 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:06,520 Speaker 1: I'm going to go out here and independently solve this 581 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 1: case and finance the whole thing. And so something that's 582 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:14,960 Speaker 1: you know, kind of worthy. I think as far as 583 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:21,279 Speaker 1: governmental funding goes. You've got this this grant that's available 584 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:27,960 Speaker 1: from the dj now, UH, and it's actually called prosecuting 585 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:33,880 Speaker 1: cold Cases using DNA, and you can there's a pool 586 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:38,399 Speaker 1: of funds that are out there in this particular case, UH, 587 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 1: to do this, Now, you have to understand you know 588 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 1: to Cap County is it's not just a bedroom community 589 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,160 Speaker 1: of Atlanta. I mean it it is a matter of fact, 590 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 1: part of Atlanta, rest within the City of Atlanta, rest 591 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,920 Speaker 1: within the Cap County. So it's it is part of Atlanta. 592 00:38:55,960 --> 00:39:00,359 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, it's it's uh uh it is part 593 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:06,480 Speaker 1: of Atlanta. And you're talking about a place that has money. Okay, 594 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:08,560 Speaker 1: they do have money, but what are they going to 595 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,440 Speaker 1: throw the money at locally, and what are they going 596 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,000 Speaker 1: to you know, where do you get the manpower? Well, 597 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 1: for in this particular case, the the Cab County DiscT 598 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:24,239 Speaker 1: Attorney's Office actually has their own cold case team, and 599 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 1: you've got grant writers that are on you know a 600 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:29,280 Speaker 1: lot of the staffs that are out there and they're 601 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 1: they're looking for funding. They always say this, looking for 602 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:35,719 Speaker 1: funding opportunities. They do this at universities as well. And 603 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 1: this is certainly something I think that is most worthy 604 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 1: of all uh you know, you want to It goes 605 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,680 Speaker 1: back to a quote from a guy named Vernon Gabrath 606 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,480 Speaker 1: that wrote a book called Practical Homicide Investigation. I think 607 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 1: it's in the forward of that book. It's like a reminder, 608 00:39:55,320 --> 00:40:00,480 Speaker 1: you know, he's a retired lieutenant with the NYPD, and 609 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,400 Speaker 1: he's famous for this book. He's traveled all over has 610 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:05,640 Speaker 1: written this thing, and the statement in the front of 611 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:10,279 Speaker 1: it is he says, we do God's work. And it's 612 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,080 Speaker 1: always that kind of anchoring moment, you know, where you 613 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:18,320 Speaker 1: realize that what you're doing is something that many people 614 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:20,760 Speaker 1: have forgotten about or they don't want to hear about. 615 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 1: Many times they don't want to hear about the brutality 616 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 1: of what we do and what we've seen over the years. 617 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:30,680 Speaker 1: And the fact that now you have an organization, you know, 618 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:36,920 Speaker 1: like authorm with DNA solves where you can go to 619 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:41,960 Speaker 1: them if you have enough money, and it doesn't really 620 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,239 Speaker 1: take a lot to initiate this thing, you know. I 621 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,040 Speaker 1: think they their starting point is, like in the whole 622 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,920 Speaker 1: grand scheme of things, is like seven thousand bucks. 623 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,240 Speaker 2: A lot less than I thought. I thought you're talking 624 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:55,960 Speaker 2: hundreds of thousands of dollars to get started, and when 625 00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,400 Speaker 2: I found it was seventy five hundred bucks to get started, 626 00:40:58,400 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 2: It's like, you've got to be kidding me. 627 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. And so for uh, a bigger governmental 628 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:09,600 Speaker 1: entity entity like you know, like the cap County for instance, 629 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:12,879 Speaker 1: and they have access to grant writers and they're they're 630 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,920 Speaker 1: looking for this money. You know they can find it. Now, 631 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:18,719 Speaker 1: if you're in smaller jurisdiction, you've you know, you've got 632 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 1: unsolved cases there. That's where crowdfunding really does come in, 633 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:26,000 Speaker 1: and you know people need that help. But in the 634 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:31,600 Speaker 1: case of Sumpters, though, this investigator, you know, set the 635 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:34,439 Speaker 1: hook in this case and wouldn't let it get off 636 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:36,600 Speaker 1: the line. And that's the beauty of it. 637 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:39,640 Speaker 2: But I'm sorry, jo I apologize, No, go ahead, Okay. 638 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:42,520 Speaker 2: Something caught my attention that when they did start the 639 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,960 Speaker 2: audit and started going back and finding cases, that they 640 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,200 Speaker 2: did take what they found the DNA and they ran 641 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 2: it up the flagpole in Georgia because that's the first step, 642 00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:54,960 Speaker 2: and they got zero. They got no hits in Georgia. 643 00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,319 Speaker 2: This is where the investigation from the detectives come in. 644 00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 2: Because we got the DNA profile and we have no hit. 645 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 2: What's next, good old fashioned police work. Well, who was 646 00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,400 Speaker 2: the main suspect here? Who was the guy from Detroit 647 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:14,360 Speaker 2: that Pamela Sumpter said had recently come into our life? 648 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:19,200 Speaker 2: And they start tracking and boom, they have Detroit, Michigan 649 00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:21,440 Speaker 2: on the radar. So they reach out, where did they 650 00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:21,960 Speaker 2: get a hit? 651 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:26,839 Speaker 1: Detroit, Detroit, Michigan. Yeah, and that was a Yeah, that's 652 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:27,640 Speaker 1: the detective work. 653 00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,160 Speaker 2: They had the DNA with no hit, they could have 654 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:32,879 Speaker 2: walked away right then because we can't do this, Yeah, 655 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:33,360 Speaker 2: we can't do it. 656 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:35,799 Speaker 1: It's just too overwhelming. But this guy again, that's why 657 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,000 Speaker 1: I'm saying, you know, big kudos to this detective that 658 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:41,480 Speaker 1: stayed on this thing, you know, and that's where this 659 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:45,520 Speaker 1: you know, you're looking for that piece of the puzzle. Uh, 660 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:49,560 Speaker 1: to try to get something out of nothing, I think, 661 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,920 Speaker 1: and I'm not trying to diminish by saying it's nothing, 662 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:56,080 Speaker 1: you know, because we do have the rape kit that 663 00:42:56,120 --> 00:43:00,399 Speaker 1: they performed on Pamela all those years ago. But you've 664 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:05,280 Speaker 1: got this case that turns out that is an unprosecuted 665 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:10,759 Speaker 1: rape case dave out of Detroit from nineteen ninety two. 666 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:14,600 Speaker 1: And remind me again, when did Pamela and her brother's 667 00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,120 Speaker 1: homicide take place? What year was it? 668 00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:21,000 Speaker 2: It was July fifteen, nineteen ninety that's when the case here. 669 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:27,080 Speaker 2: So you've actually got this man in Decab County, Georgia 670 00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:32,120 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety they know he's from Detroit. And now 671 00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,040 Speaker 2: we've got a Detroit case from nineteen ninety two. Now 672 00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:38,239 Speaker 2: remember this is not in the time, this is thirty 673 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:42,720 Speaker 2: years after the fact. And so in nineteen ninety two, 674 00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:46,360 Speaker 2: there's a man whose DNA profile pops up to match 675 00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:52,480 Speaker 2: the nineteen ninety and this man actually was accused of 676 00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:56,320 Speaker 2: raping an ex girlfriend. So now we have this same 677 00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:01,160 Speaker 2: person who was in Detroit. They find out he had 678 00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,799 Speaker 2: been in Georgia in nineteen ninety That's the catcher, you know, 679 00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:07,120 Speaker 2: as I mentioned a few minutes ago, that when they 680 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,040 Speaker 2: ran the DNA up the state of Georgia, nothing came 681 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:14,640 Speaker 2: back because apparently this individual had not committed a crime 682 00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:19,040 Speaker 2: in Georgia at that point. And so instead of leaving 683 00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:21,080 Speaker 2: it there, they took it to the next level. We 684 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:23,520 Speaker 2: got the DNA, let's find out what else. And that's 685 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:25,720 Speaker 2: where they started putting two and two together and finding 686 00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:32,000 Speaker 2: that that unprosecuted case in Michigan just was everything that 687 00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:33,480 Speaker 2: opened up everything. 688 00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:37,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I did, and they were able to actually pull 689 00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:42,400 Speaker 1: a name, you know, with this particular case, you know 690 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:47,880 Speaker 1: that originated out of Detroit, where it's an unprosecuted rape. 691 00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:52,200 Speaker 1: They go back. Here's a fascinating thing. They go back 692 00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:57,240 Speaker 1: to this woman, God bless her man that had been raped. 693 00:44:57,760 --> 00:44:58,840 Speaker 2: Can you imagine this? 694 00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:04,040 Speaker 1: I can't. It's just it's it's beyond the pale. Uh 695 00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,120 Speaker 1: you think, uh, you know, she had been raped all 696 00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:11,160 Speaker 1: those years ago, and she's known, you know, she's probably 697 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:15,640 Speaker 1: known who this is. And she says that it was actually, 698 00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:21,560 Speaker 1: uh actually her boyfriend, a fellow by the name of 699 00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:27,920 Speaker 1: Kenneth Perry. Well, you know that's enough for the police 700 00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:32,560 Speaker 1: to go out and be able to get a warrant, 701 00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:36,000 Speaker 1: you know, to take this guy in. And as it 702 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:40,520 Speaker 1: turned out, it was you know, the Cap County Fugitive 703 00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:48,120 Speaker 1: Squad that went and he's now living in Loganville, Georgia, 704 00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:51,799 Speaker 1: which is Loganville is an adjacent county, is in an 705 00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:58,080 Speaker 1: adjacent county to Decab County. And they serve that warrant 706 00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,520 Speaker 1: on the house and you know, he he didn't resist, 707 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:03,640 Speaker 1: you know, when they go in to hook him up. 708 00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:09,160 Speaker 1: He's fifty six years old now, by the way, And 709 00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:12,560 Speaker 1: what they needed was to get a DNA sample from him, 710 00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:15,000 Speaker 1: and they were able to obtain that from him and 711 00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:21,680 Speaker 1: when they did, Dave it matched. It matched Pamela Sumpter's 712 00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:24,520 Speaker 1: rape kit. And in addition, to that. It was a 713 00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:29,319 Speaker 1: spot on match for you know, obviously, for for what 714 00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:33,799 Speaker 1: had happened all those years ago up in Detroit. And 715 00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,000 Speaker 1: a lot of this, you know, comes comes about as 716 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:42,680 Speaker 1: a result of the work that Athram had done, you know, 717 00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:46,000 Speaker 1: because look, this guy's Dave, this guy's sixty, he's fifty 718 00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:48,839 Speaker 1: six years old. It's not like he is an old man. 719 00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:52,640 Speaker 1: This guy's still out on the street. And I you know, 720 00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:57,040 Speaker 1: the terrifying thing about this is that you wonder how 721 00:46:57,040 --> 00:46:59,520 Speaker 1: many other cases there are that are out there that 722 00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:03,600 Speaker 1: haveage DNA linkage back to him. Are there any other 723 00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:06,719 Speaker 1: open cases? Because the way I look at it, if 724 00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:11,760 Speaker 1: you'll walk into a place and you'll you'll perpetrate two homicides, 725 00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:19,759 Speaker 1: there's not a whole lot more that there's. Let me see, 726 00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,680 Speaker 1: how can I put this? The breaks are really off 727 00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:25,360 Speaker 1: morally at this point in time. You'll pretty much do 728 00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:31,600 Speaker 1: any anything, You'll pretty much do anything to anybody. And 729 00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:37,200 Speaker 1: he's only fifty six. He's still roaming the countryside, living life, 730 00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:43,360 Speaker 1: living life out in Loganville, Georgia, while this poor woman 731 00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:49,080 Speaker 1: up in Detroit is still probably dealing with nightmares after 732 00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:54,239 Speaker 1: all these many years, and both of the Sumpter siblings 733 00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:58,799 Speaker 1: are dead, cold in the grave, and their families are 734 00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:03,160 Speaker 1: probably you know, their family, and we have statements from them. 735 00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:06,920 Speaker 1: The family is, you know, has been waiting all these 736 00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:10,160 Speaker 1: years for something to happen, and David finally happened. 737 00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:13,320 Speaker 2: And you know, we've pointed this out on numerous occasions 738 00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:19,440 Speaker 2: that this took a combination of the work that Authoram 739 00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:23,440 Speaker 2: does and detectives who didn't give up. And I like 740 00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:27,719 Speaker 2: pointing that out because so much I wrongly thought, hey, 741 00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:30,040 Speaker 2: you get a DNA sample from somebody, you get a 742 00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:32,200 Speaker 2: good that, you're done. We can find this, you know, 743 00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,200 Speaker 2: boom boom boom, everybody's DNA is somewhere, that kind of thing. 744 00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:38,560 Speaker 2: I really did think that until we started doing these cases, 745 00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:45,319 Speaker 2: and oftentimes we realized how many times a detective, an investigator, underpaid, overworked, 746 00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:48,719 Speaker 2: could walk away, legitimately walk away from a case and 747 00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:51,880 Speaker 2: say enough, you know, we did our best, we couldn't 748 00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:54,000 Speaker 2: find anything, move on to the next one. It's a 749 00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,600 Speaker 2: math issue, you know. But they didn't. They don't. These guys, 750 00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:00,600 Speaker 2: these men and women, they don't give up. They are 751 00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:04,040 Speaker 2: looking for justice. There's a different streak in them, in 752 00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:07,719 Speaker 2: their personality, in their character that takes them up. That's 753 00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:10,200 Speaker 2: where the respect comes in for that blue line. I 754 00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:12,879 Speaker 2: look at those individuals and I think about the time 755 00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:17,040 Speaker 2: that they invest away from their families, away from not 756 00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:20,760 Speaker 2: going out golfing, not taking that vacation, because they want 757 00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:24,319 Speaker 2: to solve this crime. And that's what it takes on 758 00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:27,480 Speaker 2: the part of the detectives and then AUTHORM they come 759 00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:32,719 Speaker 2: in with that same intensity to actually solve a crime 760 00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:34,880 Speaker 2: that's over thirty years old. And I have to wonder 761 00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:37,720 Speaker 2: how many other crimes will be solved as they start 762 00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:41,279 Speaker 2: exploring this possible this guy has a possible suspect and 763 00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:42,480 Speaker 2: other related crimes. 764 00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:49,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, and I'll be very interested to see 765 00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:53,919 Speaker 1: if he's part of, you know, involved in any other 766 00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:56,440 Speaker 1: cases that might be out there. But I know that 767 00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:02,800 Speaker 1: through this, you know, the wonder of forensic genetic genealogy. 768 00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:09,480 Speaker 1: You know, when this untested rape kit, you know that 769 00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:12,840 Speaker 1: had you know, that had been sitting on the shelves 770 00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:16,319 Speaker 1: for all this period of time, it was handed over 771 00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:19,040 Speaker 1: to AUTHORM and they were able to get a match 772 00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:26,239 Speaker 1: through forensic genetic genealogy. It's it's one more of these 773 00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:30,600 Speaker 1: people that are off of streets. I just and I 774 00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:36,719 Speaker 1: think that for people that are still alive, that are involved, 775 00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:43,680 Speaker 1: family members that remember that remember these victims, it's a 776 00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:48,359 Speaker 1: bit of peace that has come their way. However, I 777 00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:51,440 Speaker 1: wonder how many others are having sleepless nights right now 778 00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:54,680 Speaker 1: because they don't have answers. Maybe this guy is the 779 00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:58,560 Speaker 1: answer relative to being a perpetrator. I don't know. We'll see, 780 00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:06,280 Speaker 1: but hoping that you will, UH consider just for a moment, 781 00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:14,919 Speaker 1: the possibility of helping out Authorm and understanding. By the way, 782 00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:22,759 Speaker 1: UH an update, Authorm Labs has just uh created their 783 00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:26,399 Speaker 1: own app, uh that you can you know, you can 784 00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:29,719 Speaker 1: download for you know, whatever platform that you might be on, 785 00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:34,600 Speaker 1: whether it's uh it's Apple or or Android. I've downloaded 786 00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:37,080 Speaker 1: it to my phone. I get an alert every time 787 00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:40,160 Speaker 1: a new case has solved. Phone went off a couple 788 00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:44,120 Speaker 1: of times this past week. UH and it's it's you know, 789 00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:47,239 Speaker 1: it's like a miracle, you know, happening every single time 790 00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:50,640 Speaker 1: that the thing goes off. But I urge you to 791 00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:55,200 Speaker 1: download their app, authorm uh that is, and also UH 792 00:51:55,440 --> 00:52:00,000 Speaker 1: check out their website. It's uh DNA solves dot com. 793 00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:04,239 Speaker 1: That's d and A solves dot com. You can go 794 00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:08,919 Speaker 1: there and you can contribute as much as you possibly can, 795 00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:12,560 Speaker 1: and if it's just a few bucks, push it that way. 796 00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:16,319 Speaker 1: You never know. You the dollars that you give to them, 797 00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:20,920 Speaker 1: and that you give to this program, no matter how 798 00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:24,680 Speaker 1: insignificant you might think that is, it might be just 799 00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:29,359 Speaker 1: enough to push things over that limit that they have 800 00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:32,360 Speaker 1: where they have to have those moneies in order to 801 00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:37,120 Speaker 1: initiate the opening or the follow through on one of 802 00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:40,239 Speaker 1: these cases. You never know. You might be part of it. 803 00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:44,160 Speaker 1: You might be part of the solution. Just as kind 804 00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:47,759 Speaker 1: of a final here. I think that it's with as 805 00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:51,040 Speaker 1: much joy as you can muster over something so dark. 806 00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:59,759 Speaker 1: Just last week, Kenneth Perry was found guilty and convicted 807 00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:08,400 Speaker 1: on two counts of malice murder, two counts of felony murder, rape, 808 00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:14,520 Speaker 1: four counts of agassault, two counts of AG battery, two 809 00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:17,120 Speaker 1: counts of possession of a knife during the commission of 810 00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:24,560 Speaker 1: a felony, and theft by taking. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan 811 00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:27,280 Speaker 1: and this is body Backs