1 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: I remember my best friend's older sibling like drove up 2 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:09,639 Speaker 1: in a car. We're like freshman in high school and 3 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: they're like, try it. This is like the new thing. 4 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: Try it and we're like, wow, this is so cool. 5 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: You know you can puff it whenever. Um. And then 6 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: the naked sine so concentrated. You know, everyone has one. 7 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 1: It's very accessible, and they think you just start doing 8 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:26,119 Speaker 1: it and I can't stop. I guess that is what 9 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: I would say. They're talking about Jewel, the e cigarette 10 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: that took the nation by storm just a few years 11 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 1: ago and has become ingrained in youth culture, even spawning 12 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: viral YouTube hits like this, Hey, have you guys seen 13 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: my jewel? I like literally just had in my hand, 14 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:51,919 Speaker 1: Like you gave it back to me? Right? I thought 15 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: you hit my jewel and then you gave it back 16 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: to me. You didn't take it, did you. You wouldn't 17 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 1: do that to me. Welcome to Calling Bullshit, the podcast 18 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: about purpose washing, the gap between what companies say they 19 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 1: stand for and what they actually do, and what they 20 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:25,479 Speaker 1: would need to change to practice what they preach. I'm 21 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: your host, Time Montague, and I've spent over a decade 22 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: helping companies define what they stand for, their purpose and 23 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: help them to use that purpose to drive transformation throughout 24 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: their business. Unfortunately, at a lot of organizations today, there's 25 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 1: still a pretty wide gap between word and deed. That 26 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 1: gap has a name. We call it bullshit. But, and 27 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: this is important on this show, we believe that bullshit 28 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: is a treatable disease. So when the bullshit detector lights 29 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: up up, we're going to explore things that the company 30 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: should do to fix it. In this episode, we're going 31 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: to take a look at Jewel. The company's mission is 32 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: harm reduction. They want people to stop smoking cigarettes and 33 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 1: start using Jewel, which they claim is a potentially life 34 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 1: saving alternative. Here's how co founder Adam Bowen put it 35 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: in a promotional video. fIF the years from now, nobody's 36 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: gonna be smoking cigarettes. They're gonna look back and think, 37 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: oh my god, I can't believe people used to do that, 38 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 1: and now I think it's actually gonna happen much faster, 39 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: in large part because of the progress that we've made. 40 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:50,079 Speaker 1: It sounds revolutionary, but is it actually true. To tell 41 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: Jewel's story, we have to start with a quick history 42 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: of the industry that Adam and James wanted to disrupt 43 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 1: big tobacco to Bacco used goes back thousands of years. 44 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: It grows wild in the Americas and has long been 45 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 1: valued by indigenous peoples as a sacred and medicinal plant. 46 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: In the Taino people of the Caribbean gave Christopher Columbus 47 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: some dried tobacco. Soon, smoking was all the rage with 48 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: Europe's elite, who apparently just loved that sweet buzz. In 49 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: the sixteen hundreds, English colonists set up big tobacco plantations 50 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: in the southeastern United States, which also fueled the demand 51 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: for enslaved labor, and by the late eighteen hundreds, big 52 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: companies like Philip Morris, now Aultria and American Tobacco began 53 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: to dominate the market. Mass production made cigarettes popular, and 54 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: so did ads that portrayed smoking as a pleasurable, glamorous habit. 55 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: Some of them even featured doctors played by actors in 56 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 1: white lab codes. Time out for many men of medicine 57 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: usually means just long enough to enjoy a cigarette, and 58 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: because they know what a pleasure it is to smoke 59 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: a mild, good tasting cigarette, they're particular about the brand 60 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 1: they choose. More doctors smoke camels than any other cigarette. 61 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: A lot of doctors did smoke back in the forties 62 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:26,679 Speaker 1: when this ad was made, but Big Tobacco specifically used 63 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:30,799 Speaker 1: this kind of messaging to counter growing concerns around health. 64 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: By the mid sixties, though the evidence was clear. Tonight's 65 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:39,840 Speaker 1: CBS reports begins with this historic announcement by the Surgeon 66 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: General of the United States on January eleven, nineteen sixty four. 67 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: It is a judgment of the committee that cigarette smoking 68 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 1: contributes substantially to martality from certain specific diseases and to 69 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:59,159 Speaker 1: the overall death rate. Big Tobacco knew this. They'd also 70 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 1: discovered that the key ingredient in their product, the thing 71 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:06,840 Speaker 1: that gave you that sweet buzz, was nicotine, so they 72 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 1: optimized for tobacco plants and cigarettes that delivered more of 73 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 1: the drug into the smoker's lungs. And they knew that 74 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 1: it was addictive. Tobacco executives admitted that at least as 75 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,840 Speaker 1: far back as the early sixties, according to internal company documents, 76 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: but publicly they claimed otherwise, hoping to steer clear of 77 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 1: the f d A. After all, if your product is 78 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: addictive and it causes cancer, why should regulators allow you 79 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: to sell it at all. Finally, in the hammer Fell, 80 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 1: this is an historic hearing. For the first time ever, 81 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:53,600 Speaker 1: the chief executive officers of our nation's tobacco companies are 82 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:58,359 Speaker 1: testifying together before the United States Congress. The truth is 83 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: that cigarettes are the single most dangerous consumer product ever sold. 84 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: The Master Settlement Agreement that came out of these hearings 85 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 1: put strict limits on the sale, advertising, packaging, and distribution 86 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: of tobacco products. Some would say Big Tobacco got off easy, 87 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: but for sure the days of easy money in the 88 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 1: tobacco industry were over. Flash forward to two thousand and 89 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: five when two young smokers, Adam Bowen and James Monsey's 90 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: were grad students in Stanford's prestigious product design program and 91 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 1: they kind of hatched their idea and became friends over 92 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:46,039 Speaker 1: cigarette breaks outside of their classroom at Stanford University. That's 93 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:49,920 Speaker 1: lauraenett Or, an investigative reporter who's covered the Jewel story 94 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: in depth. So when you're at Stanford, you're always looking 95 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: for what are the products in the areas that are 96 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 1: right for innovation, and the cigarette was right for innovation. 97 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: It's not the nicotine that kills people, it's the combustion. 98 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,159 Speaker 1: So they thought to themselves, if there was a way 99 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: that we can just get people the nicotine that they 100 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: want and that they're addicted to, but in a safer way, 101 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 1: we should be able to make a huge public health 102 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: contribution by transitioning people away from the deadly dirty cigarette 103 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: to a safer, cleaner nicotine. They could save millions of 104 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: lives and probably make some money doing it. But it 105 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: turned out that solving this problem was a lot harder 106 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 1: than it looked. James and Adam hammered away at it 107 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: for a decade until when they finally launched their revolutionary product, Jewel. 108 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: Jewel delivered the kick that smokers crave, but it was 109 00:07:54,880 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: also everything a cigarette wasn't. It was sleek, modern, easy 110 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: to conceal, It produced no smoke, so it could be 111 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: used in secret, even indoors, and its pods came in 112 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: a variety of tasty flavors like mango, mint and krimboulet. 113 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: So Adam and James went off to work marketing Jewel 114 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: to smokers who tend to be older and less affluent. 115 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: They made it abundantly clear that young people and non 116 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: smokers should stay away because nicotine in any form is 117 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: highly addictive, and their goal was getting people to stop smoking. Okay, okay, 118 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 1: actually that part is completely made up. They didn't do 119 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 1: any of that. In fact, they did exactly the opposite, 120 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:56,079 Speaker 1: and the results are almost comically catastrophic. So get out 121 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: your BS detectors, folks, and hang on tight, because this 122 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 1: one is quite a ride. Jewel says that its mission 123 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: is harm reduction. Is that true or is it just 124 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: a bunch of bullshit? To learn more about where Jewel 125 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:18,680 Speaker 1: went wrong, I called up Lauren Eder, who you heard earlier. 126 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 1: She's a reporter at Bloomberg News and the author of 127 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 1: the Devil's playbook, Big Tobacco, Jewel and the Addiction of 128 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: a New Generation. I guess I want to start up 129 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 1: by asking what was it that initially captured your attention? 130 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: Why did you write this book? So? I'm always looking 131 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: for interesting stories about companies that are making an impact 132 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: on our lives in one way or another. And as 133 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: the youth vaping epidemic was skyrocketing, where suddenly all these 134 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:55,479 Speaker 1: teenagers started showing up in the emergency room with shortness 135 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 1: of breath, would appear to be burns on their lungs, 136 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 1: and then it looked like it was tied to vaporing 137 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:05,439 Speaker 1: of some kind. I was fascinated that there was a 138 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 1: very high flying Silicon Valley start up in the middle 139 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: of a public health crisis. Can you talk about their 140 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: pitch to early investors, like, how did they tell the 141 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: story of what they were trying to do. It was 142 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: both an innovation pitch and a public health pitch. On 143 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: the innovation side, it was, here's this product that one 144 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: billion people use in the world. Thirty four million Americans 145 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: smoke cigarettes. So the cigarette is literally the same, essentially 146 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: as it was a century earlier. It's essentially paper with 147 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,199 Speaker 1: shredded tobacco leaf rolled up inside of the paper. You 148 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 1: light it on fire, and you inhale the smoke. So 149 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:52,439 Speaker 1: if there isn't a product that's right for innovation, I 150 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: don't know what. The public health pitch was really interesting. 151 00:10:56,120 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: They thought to themselves, why are so many people still smoking, 152 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 1: and why is it still killing them? And how can 153 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: this be happening. There's got to be a better way 154 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: to get people what they really want in a cigarette, 155 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: which is the nicotine. They sold that story and they 156 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: sold it very well. Yeah, and it seems to me 157 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: that the mission that this company had from the very beginning, 158 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: it's fundamentally a good one, essentially harm reduction. Right. How 159 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 1: serious do you think they really were about that mission. 160 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: I think that they were very serious about that mission. 161 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: I think they truly believe that they could have a 162 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: public health impact. But they also realized that there was 163 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 1: a huge market to be tapped. We'll get to what 164 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 1: eventually happened, but I think those balances got a little 165 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 1: bit out of whack. So what was the key technical 166 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:51,679 Speaker 1: challenge that they had to solve in order to actually 167 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 1: achieve this mission to create a safer alternative to smoking. 168 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: One of the first challenges was very rudimentary, how do 169 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: we heat up the tobacco? So the first iteration of 170 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: their product was essentially a little tube that heated up 171 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: tobacco pods. So it was a very poorly designed device. 172 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: It was almost like a lighter. You snap it and 173 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:17,559 Speaker 1: it would kick on the butane heater that would heat 174 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 1: the tobacco. It was shocking people. It was literally on 175 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: the lips now and you look for it in a 176 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: relaxing smoke white, you just get a little joelt. They 177 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: were presenting it to a potential investors, And there's a 178 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:34,319 Speaker 1: couple of scenes in my book where they go to 179 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 1: pretty high level people presenting this thing and it like 180 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 1: zaps them on the lips, and it's super embarrassing. For 181 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 1: Adam and James, who pride themselves on design. They went 182 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: to the d School, This is the pre eminent design 183 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: school in the world. They eventually included a battery, but 184 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: the challenge with just heating tobacco was that it didn't 185 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: satisfy smokers in the way that cigarettes did. So, yeah, 186 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 1: if you're not getting the nicotine, there's no way you're 187 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: going to get somebody to quit smoking. I mean, it's 188 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: all about the nicotine. It's only about the nicotine. It's 189 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:14,679 Speaker 1: all about the nicotine. And let's be clear, high doses 190 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 1: of nicotine are not a health treatment. According to the CDC, 191 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 1: using nicotine and adolescence can harm the parts of the 192 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 1: brain that control attention, learning, mood, and impulse control. However, 193 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: e cigarettes did have the potential to create a far 194 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: safer alternative to cigarettes, and the tobacco companies knew this. 195 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: In fact, because they knew their cigarettes were killing people 196 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: and their backs were against the wall. Tobacco companies spent 197 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 1: decades and billions of dollars on developing safer products, which 198 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: included vaporizing technology. This was a huge moment for Adam 199 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 1: and James. They realized that there was an archive containing 200 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: millions of documents that the tobacco industry had made public 201 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: as a term of their settlement with the Attorney's General 202 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: and with the Department of Justice, and so they got 203 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: a lot of their ideas for innovation from these tobacco documents. 204 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: They realized that they could use chemistry to create a 205 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: nicotine solution that was as satisfying as a cigarette. Okay, 206 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: so these two young kids from Stanford finally build a 207 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: little machine that looked like a thumb drive that heated 208 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: nicotine salts or heated nicotine in a way that it 209 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: could deliver as much or more of a hit than 210 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: a cigarette. I mean, this is a pretty amazing breakthrough, 211 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: isn't it. It was a huge breakthrough. Adam and James 212 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: now have Jewel all teed up and are ready to 213 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: go save lives by convincing smokers who are primarily older 214 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: to switch from smoking cigarettes to using a jewel. But 215 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 1: their very first higher was Kurt Sandrager, a marketing guru 216 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: from Red Bull, a company that pretty clearly targets young people. 217 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: I really think that they found Kurt because he was 218 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: kind of in the area and at the time, it 219 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: wasn't easy to attract people to come work for a 220 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: tobacco startup. I think that they just needed somebody who 221 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: understood marketing, which he did, and I think that they 222 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: did have this kind of initial idea of like, how 223 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: can we frame it as a product that will be 224 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: interesting to people and that might have a little bit 225 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: of cool factors, and of course, being a Silicon Valley company, 226 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: that's a key part of the equation. So Kurt Sandragger 227 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: left the company pretty early and the founders on their 228 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: own went out and hired their first outside marketing partner, 229 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: a company called The Cult Collective run by Chris Neeland, 230 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: and it seemed like they really seemed to understand this 231 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: premise that Jewel was on a mission to be a 232 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: harm reduction company. You know, I'm a former ad guy myself, 233 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: and so you know, I was looking at it with 234 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: my ad guy eyes, and the idea for the first 235 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: campaign that they showed to James and Adam seemed like 236 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: at least the right strategy to me. Basically it went 237 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: directly against cigarettes, comparing cigarettes to old anachronistic technologies boom 238 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 1: boxes and atari joy sticks and a position jewel is 239 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: the modern alternative, and the tagline was the evolution of 240 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: smoking with the double like jewel. But basically it went 241 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: directly at smoking and knocked it as old fashioned. Why 242 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: didn't James and Adam buy that direction? I don't think 243 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: Adam and James looked at what Chris Nelan did and said, 244 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: this is not the direction we want to go. The 245 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: board of the company at the time was really saying 246 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: we should probably bring in our own marketing person. They 247 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: brought in a new team. This new person Richard Mumby, Right, 248 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:06,920 Speaker 1: Richard Mumby joined as the CMO midstream, and he had 249 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,719 Speaker 1: his own ideas about what direction the marketing should go. 250 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:16,360 Speaker 1: So it was evident almost immediately when Richard Mumby came 251 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: in and he had an art director. He brought with 252 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 1: them a guy named Stephen Bailey. They initially just thought 253 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:29,159 Speaker 1: that Chris's vision was missing the boat. It wasn't elevating 254 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: the product enough. Well, it also wasn't very cool, right. 255 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: The message I keep getting is these guys somebody somewhere, 256 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,640 Speaker 1: whether it was James and Adam or the board, somebody 257 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: wanted this company to be cool. I think Richard Mumby 258 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 1: was really driving a lot of that. So Stephen Bailey, 259 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: who is mostly from the world of fashion, did campaigns 260 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:57,400 Speaker 1: for Gap and hype Beast and Benobo's. He comes up 261 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: with a campaign that became known as vapor Rised, which 262 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: is sort of inspired by his buddy Terry Richardson's look 263 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:08,640 Speaker 1: that kind of gritty sexy models, jeweling, and it's sophisticated 264 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 1: and cool and just perfectly out of reach of teenagers, 265 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: who of course will want it. And the Vaporized campaign 266 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: when I look at it today, I look at it 267 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 1: and go these are exactly the same marketing techniques that 268 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:29,120 Speaker 1: had been used by Big Tobacco for years, this sexy 269 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:34,439 Speaker 1: lifestyle imagery. Now absolutely certainly Adam and James were aware 270 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 1: of these marketing kind of strategies and the problems related 271 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: to them. I don't actually believe that Richard Mumby and 272 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: Stephen Bailey sat down, looked at the tobacco archives and said, 273 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:51,920 Speaker 1: how can we recreate this tobacco industry playbook? I really don't. 274 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,880 Speaker 1: I don't know how knowledgeable. Richard and Stephen were really 275 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: of the tobacco stuff. I mean, it was all happening 276 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:01,159 Speaker 1: very fast. They like did the photo shoot and the campaign, 277 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: the mock up in a very short period of time. 278 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 1: So I really believe that the Vaporized campaign was the 279 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 1: best work product that Stephen and Richard could come up with. 280 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 1: It wasn't necessarily a nefarious way to get young people hooked. 281 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: It was a way to make their product cool. I agree, 282 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: And I just think the whole notion of trying to 283 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: make the product cool is where they fell down. It 284 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: was their undoing that was their original sin was the 285 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:35,880 Speaker 1: marketing campaign and not reading this highly addictive drug with 286 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:41,360 Speaker 1: enough care, which they should have done right. So they 287 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 1: do a big launch party at Jack Studio, is a 288 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: super cool place in New York. Four young people models 289 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: and photographers and young fashionistas and punky looking skateboarders, and 290 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: they hire a bunch of young influencers to push the 291 00:19:56,359 --> 00:20:02,679 Speaker 1: event and jewel on social media and spoiler alert, it works. 292 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,120 Speaker 1: Their brand got out there in a very important way 293 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:11,640 Speaker 1: where I think people definitely started seeing it as almost 294 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,640 Speaker 1: this what is this thing? Nothing on their advertising set 295 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: it was addictive, nothing on their advertising said that it 296 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 1: contained nicotine. It was just this cool, flashy device that 297 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: you could have as a fashion accessory. So eventually teens 298 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: started becoming interested. Gas stations start running out of it, 299 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: people start posting on Twitter desperately, when are you going 300 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: to restock Jewel? Right, So they can't make them fast 301 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:45,199 Speaker 1: enough and they're having scaling problems and then Q Scary music. 302 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,160 Speaker 1: Parents start to wake up to this growing issue with 303 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: their kids and they start to freak out. What were 304 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:56,400 Speaker 1: the first signs of that, Like the first sign of oh, Houston, 305 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: we may have a problem pretty early on I mean principle, 306 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 1: as we're finding Jewel and not even knowing what it was, 307 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 1: and parents were finding it and backpacks and in bedrooms 308 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: and stuff like that, and so there's this kind of 309 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: like percolating kind of controversy, and the Tobacco Control Group 310 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: they really started sounding alarm bells. They started calling on 311 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: Congress to regulate this industry because a key part of 312 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 1: this story is that at the time that Jewel launched, 313 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: there was no regulation on the sale of electronic cigarettes. 314 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: Regulation or lack thereof, is a key point in fifty 315 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 1: two State and territory Attorneys General signed the Master Settlement 316 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:43,120 Speaker 1: Agreement with the four largest tobacco companies to settle dozens 317 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: of state lawsuits and to reduce smoking, especially in youth. 318 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 1: From there on out, tobacco companies have legal marketing obligations. 319 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: No more obscuring health risks, no more billboards sponsoring team 320 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 1: sporting events, cartoons of any kind, and on and on. 321 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: The Master Settlement Agreement turned out to be incredibly effective 322 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: in reducing teenage smoking, but when e cigarettes and vaping 323 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 1: came onto the market, they were not covered under that agreement, 324 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 1: so they were allowed to advertise wherever they wanted, including 325 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:24,919 Speaker 1: homework sites for middle schoolers and even on Nickelodeon. Yeah yeah, 326 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 1: so they did advertise on these places. They explain it 327 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,959 Speaker 1: by saying that they used a third party marketer and 328 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:33,439 Speaker 1: they didn't have control over that, but they did. And 329 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: they actually sent dual representatives into schools to teach about 330 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: addiction and how you shouldn't use nicotine. It was this crazy, 331 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:45,360 Speaker 1: weird reverse psychology that the tobacco industry had used for years. 332 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:47,880 Speaker 1: Don't smoke, it's not cool. But then it turns out 333 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 1: that their marketing was actually attractive to youth. You know, Yeah, 334 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: and at the same time those people went into schools 335 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,880 Speaker 1: and said, well, you shouldn't use it, but it's perfectly safe. Right. 336 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: It was really bad look and it was not good. Meanwhile, 337 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: all the tobacco giant formerly known as Philip Morris had 338 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,120 Speaker 1: been trying to buy a steak in Jewel, and as 339 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: the company came increasingly under fire, that offer started to 340 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: look a lot more attractive. Altria makes Marlborough cigarettes the 341 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: number one selling cigarette in America, and inside Jewel they 342 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 1: saw it as a way to from the inside take 343 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 1: their harm reduction plan and use Altrea to really give 344 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:33,199 Speaker 1: them a huge sales advantage and access to customers. So 345 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: the deal was done in December two thou eighteen, and 346 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 1: it was like the worst timing ever. There's new regulations 347 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,399 Speaker 1: on the industry, the cigarette industry. At least the pod 348 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: makers had to take off all of their flavored products. 349 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 1: I mean, Jewel kind of did this voluntarily and anticipation 350 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 1: of the FDA going in this direction. The FDA is 351 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,159 Speaker 1: now decided whether or not Jewel will continue to be sold, 352 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:56,640 Speaker 1: whether or not will be legal for Jewel to continue 353 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: selling its product. When do we hear about that? Towards 354 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,639 Speaker 1: the end of the year. So this is really literally 355 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 1: Julius hanging by threat, and the FDA is holding the threat. 356 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: They either will get the go ahead to continue selling 357 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 1: their product or they won't. This story made me a 358 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 1: little sad, I have to say, because it seemed like 359 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 1: this is a company that was born with a great 360 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 1: quest to take down big tobacco and save the world 361 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,479 Speaker 1: from cigarettes. They had the breakthrough product to do it. 362 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: They just spiked the ball on like the five yard 363 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,920 Speaker 1: line and marketed it to the wrong people, to teenagers. 364 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 1: Is that too kind or to mean? Like? Is that fair? Well? 365 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 1: I feel the same way. I mean, I don't think 366 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: that Adam and James set out to addict five million 367 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 1: teenagers on nicotine, right, unintentional? Right, But you really do. 368 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 1: As businesses, and particularly in Silicon Valley, I believe you 369 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 1: have a responsibility for how your product is marketed and sold. So, Lauren, 370 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: I have a question that I asked all of our guests, 371 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 1: so I will ask it if you are will just 372 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,920 Speaker 1: a bunch of bullshitters? I don't know. Is there like 373 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: a scale or something? Well, yes, yes, that's where I 374 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: was going. We have a thing called the bullshit scale. 375 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: So on a scale of zero to one, zero being 376 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 1: zero bullshit the company means everything that it says and 377 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: being just complete bs. Where would you rate Jewel? Well, 378 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,239 Speaker 1: I think that you can't discount their past and like 379 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: a set at their original sin. So I think that 380 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: gives them a lot of points on the bullshit meter. Honestly, Um, 381 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: so that puts them to fifty. I think that they're trying. 382 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:39,360 Speaker 1: I think that they do have a valid harm reduction mission, 383 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:44,119 Speaker 1: but again, the youth threat just lingers out there. So 384 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 1: I would say that between zero and a hundred, I 385 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,160 Speaker 1: would put them at about a sixty. Yeah, that's fair 386 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,879 Speaker 1: and by the way, that can move. What is the 387 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: one thing that you think Jewel should have done or 388 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:02,440 Speaker 1: still should do to solve their problem? Well, I think 389 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 1: that they should have treated their product more carefully. They 390 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: should have treated it less as a fashion accessory and 391 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: more as a pharmaceutical grade product that is designed to 392 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 1: help people quit smoking. They should have been more boring. 393 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: But listen, we all acknowledge and know and realize that 394 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 1: in no world in Silicon Valley would a boring company 395 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 1: achieve a thirty eight billion dollar valuation. There's some fundamental 396 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,959 Speaker 1: flaws in the way that Silicon Valley is structure, and 397 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 1: I think that that's also a big part of the problem. 398 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: Very interesting. I completely agree with that. All right, thank 399 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,120 Speaker 1: you very much for joining us today, Lauren. That was amazing. 400 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:48,399 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. Fun to talk to you. So 401 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: is Duel really transitioning the world's billion adults smokers away 402 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:59,360 Speaker 1: from combustible cigarettes, eliminating their use and combating underage usage 403 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,200 Speaker 1: of our ducks? Like they say on their website. Based 404 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 1: on what I've heard so far, I'm calling bullshit. But 405 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: after the break we'll hear some concrete ideas to get 406 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 1: Jewel back on track from two more experts on the 407 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: vaping industry. Welcome back on calling bullshit. We don't just 408 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: curse the darkness. We want to light some candles too. 409 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 1: So I've asked two vaping industry experts to propose some 410 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 1: concrete things that Jewel and their current CEO, Casey Cross 411 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 1: the Way could change to actually do their story of 412 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:56,360 Speaker 1: harm reduction. First, I'd like to welcome Jamie Douche, arm 413 00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,360 Speaker 1: author and journalist. Thanks so much for having me so. 414 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,159 Speaker 1: I am a health correspondent at Time Magazine and my 415 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 1: first book is called Big Vape. The incendiary rise of Jewel, 416 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 1: and it tracks Jewel from its very origins up until 417 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 1: more or less the present day, going into many of 418 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: the decisions they've made over time and how they got 419 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:18,640 Speaker 1: into the hot water that they find themselves in. Now. 420 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 1: It's a great book. I enjoyed it a lot. Thank you. 421 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: We're also joined by Greg Connolly, and Greg, thank you 422 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: for being here today. Can you tell us a little 423 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 1: bit about your background. I run a nonprofit called the 424 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 1: American Vaping Association. It's a five oh one c four. 425 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: It advocates for pro vaping policies with the end goal 426 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 1: of maximizing the number of smokers who use these products 427 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 1: to quit smoking and improve their health. Back in law 428 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 1: school at Rutgers University in Camden, New Jersey, I was 429 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 1: a dedicated smoker, and in two thousand ten I saw 430 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: these things called the cigarettes. I quit with them, and 431 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: I found that there were activists out trying to ban 432 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: these products while leaving combustible cigarettes entirely untouched. That didn't 433 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: set right with me, so I spent about three years 434 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 1: as a volunteer consumer advocate with the US's largest consumer 435 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 1: association for users of smoke free nicotine products, and the 436 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 1: a v A has been going for around eight years 437 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,719 Speaker 1: and we've been fortunate enough to to do a lot 438 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: of media, get some attention to this issue, and work 439 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 1: with a lot of great public health people who have 440 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 1: come around on this issue as well. Thank you, Greg. 441 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 1: So let's get into ideas for positive actions that Jewel 442 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: could take Jamie in two minutes or less? What is 443 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,719 Speaker 1: the number one thing that Jewels should do to solve 444 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 1: the mess that they're currently in. Basically, what it boils 445 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 1: down to for me is that Jewels should just do less. 446 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 1: And what I mean by that is throughout the company's history, 447 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: it has made so many unforced errors that have made 448 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: it really difficult to support the company. I think the 449 00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: flashy marketing campaign that they came out with is one 450 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: great an example. I mean, they didn't have to partner 451 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 1: with Instagram influencers and buy a Time Square billboard, but 452 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 1: they chose to because at that time they were kind 453 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 1: of operating as a trendy start up more than they 454 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: were as a company that straddles the line between tobacco 455 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 1: and public health. They didn't have to go into schools 456 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: and pitch schools on an anti vaping curriculum. That they developed. 457 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: But they did that, they didn't have to just recently 458 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 1: buy out an entire issue of a research journal to 459 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: promote their own research. So really, what I'm getting at 460 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: is that the problem for Jewel has always been less 461 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: about its product, which actually is a good product that 462 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: works well and can be effective for adults. So, in 463 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 1: my opinion, if they just stripped away kind of all 464 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 1: of their external activity and paid less attention to marketing 465 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: and trying to be a thought leader an innovative company, 466 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: and just sold their product and did the research that 467 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 1: they need to do and listen to what the FDA 468 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: was asking of them, I think they would be in 469 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 1: a far better position than they are today. Yeah. No, 470 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: that makes a ton of sense. It's put the shovel down, 471 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 1: just stop digging. Thank you, Jamie, Greg your turn in 472 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: two minutes or less. What's your idea to get Jewel 473 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: back on track? There are two different ideas popping around 474 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 1: my head. First is rather simple. There's a process at 475 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: the f d A beyond the pre market tobacco application 476 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 1: known as the m r t P process. Yes, there 477 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: are a lot of acronyms in this field. M RTP 478 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 1: stands for modified risk tobacco product, and there are at 479 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: least two products, General Snooze, which is a T bag 480 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 1: shaped thing of tobacco that goes in your upper lip, 481 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: as well as a Philip Morris product called KOs that 482 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 1: heats tobacco and does not burn it. They have gotten 483 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: approval through that m R t P process at the FDA. 484 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 1: It allows them to make health based claims in marketing, 485 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 1: and I think with so many people in America, the 486 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: vast majority inaccurately believing vaping could be just as deadly 487 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: as smoking, going through that m R t P process, 488 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 1: I think is going to be essential to regaining public 489 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 1: trust and actually correcting misperceptions not only among the general public, 490 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: but among doctors, among regulators, among state legislators. And the 491 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 1: second is there are still tremendous amounts of knockoffs of 492 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 1: Jewel and products that are heavily inspired by Jewel that 493 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 1: may not infringe on their patents, but nonetheless are either 494 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 1: on the market illegally or on the market to the 495 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 1: gray market where it's not technically illegal, but it is 496 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: something that the government could take action on. Jewel being 497 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: more aggressive going to more governments and saying look, we 498 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 1: did the right thing. We went through the process. We 499 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,479 Speaker 1: are regulated by the FDA. These people aren't, and we 500 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 1: need your help. That could in some way bring about 501 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 1: more legitimacy. But really, this is a multi year fight 502 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: for Jewel to regain any Lauren puts it in her 503 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 1: book Permission to Exist. It's a long fight for them ahead. 504 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 1: So in a way, you're advocating for them to become 505 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 1: an active this in the space, advocating for saner regulation 506 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 1: and maybe fewer cowboy companies. Not so much with being 507 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 1: an advocate for better regulation, but more pointing out that 508 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 1: they make products that are tightly regulated by the f 509 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 1: d A, presumably they will have authorization from the f 510 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 1: d A. And meanwhile, yes, there are these cowboy companies 511 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 1: out there, and I think they can be even more 512 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 1: aggressive on that point without risking any reputational damage except 513 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: from people like me who just wants adults to be 514 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 1: able to vape. Yeah, that makes also a ton of sense, 515 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 1: Thank you, Greg. Okay, my turn. Now. I think Jewels 516 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: in a pretty deep ditch, and so I think it's 517 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: going to take some fairly radical action to get them 518 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: out of it. But I think that this could actually work. 519 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: They sold out to big Tobacco by taking a huge 520 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:58,479 Speaker 1: investment from all Tria, and so I think the hatred 521 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 1: and mistrust that it created really destroyed the brand, and 522 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: so I think they need to rethink their whole model. 523 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: I think Jewels should be a medical device. I think 524 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:11,279 Speaker 1: they should go to the pharmaceutical industry instead of the 525 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 1: tobacco industry. Go to Fiser or g s K, who 526 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:19,479 Speaker 1: both have smoking cessation products in the market, and see 527 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,879 Speaker 1: if they can get those companies interested in the underlying technology. 528 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 1: These are both companies with really deep pockets and the 529 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:34,279 Speaker 1: patients to guide a new medical technology through the regulatory process. 530 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,399 Speaker 1: They also both have the necessary army of salespeople who 531 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 1: know how to sell a new medical technology through to doctors, 532 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 1: and so it becomes a prescription medical device that doctors 533 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: can prescribe to their patients who smoke as a way 534 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:52,879 Speaker 1: to reduce harm. And that market is still massive and 535 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,840 Speaker 1: with some grown ups at the wheel, the former Jewel 536 00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:01,280 Speaker 1: could finally live up to its true and very positive promise. 537 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,719 Speaker 1: Any thoughts on that? Is that crazy talk? I don't 538 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: think it's crazy talk. I do think the huge benefit 539 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:10,880 Speaker 1: of what you've just described is that it would solve 540 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 1: a lot of Jewels use issues. I think the drawback, 541 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 1: which I'm sure Greg would point out if I didn't, 542 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 1: so I'm getting ahead of it, is that if you 543 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,280 Speaker 1: make something a prescription product, you're guaranteeing that fewer people 544 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 1: will have access to it or will choose to seek 545 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:26,839 Speaker 1: out access to it. So I think it's a two 546 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,280 Speaker 1: sided coin where yes, you'll prevent a lot of teenagers 547 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,440 Speaker 1: from using it, which is great, but you'll also lose 548 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 1: out on some of the adults who might use it. Yes, 549 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:37,879 Speaker 1: and as Jamie noted, we live in a country where 550 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 1: about of Americans do not have a primary care doctor, 551 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 1: and with cigarette smokers being of lower socio economic status 552 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:52,360 Speaker 1: on average, you're probably more looking at thirty smokers without 553 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: a primary care doctor. The prescription model is problematic for 554 00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,960 Speaker 1: a number of reasons. Visor and g SK both place 555 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 1: great value in their relationships with the tobacco control community, 556 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,759 Speaker 1: with the people who are trying to ban jewel, and 557 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 1: the problem is that campaign for tobacco free kids, the 558 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 1: American Lung Association American Heart Association. If there's any hint 559 00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 1: of FISER or GSK partnering with an Altria owned company, 560 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: a cigarette company, they won't stand for it. There's a 561 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,840 Speaker 1: recognition at the FDA that long term usage of smoke 562 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 1: free nicotine can be a public health benefit, but under 563 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: the farmer route, there really is no way to get 564 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:44,880 Speaker 1: a product approved for long term nicotine replacement. Smoking cessation 565 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 1: is kind of a misnomer. It's really about nicotine cessation. 566 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,800 Speaker 1: At the f D a center for drug evaluation and research. 567 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: So there's a lot of problems with that route. Certainly, 568 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,279 Speaker 1: Jewel may one day decide we need to do this, 569 00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 1: especially if FDA denies them. I just don't think it 570 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 1: be with Visor or GSK for reputational reasons. Well that 571 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,440 Speaker 1: makes sense, you know way more about this, not surprisingly, 572 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,640 Speaker 1: and if they're the wrong partners, then so be it. 573 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 1: But one of just to pursue this for a sect. 574 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:13,360 Speaker 1: One of the things that I think got Jewel in 575 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,360 Speaker 1: trouble was this hurry up offense, like they were in 576 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:21,800 Speaker 1: a hurry to get big fast deliver value for their shareholders. 577 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 1: And I think some patients is needed, and I completely 578 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: agree that it would reduce dramatically the sales in the 579 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,400 Speaker 1: short term to go to a prescription model. And what 580 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 1: I'm arguing is that's a good thing. That will give 581 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 1: them time to have a business of some kind for 582 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 1: a period of time while trust is healed, because trust 583 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,319 Speaker 1: has been broken. And so following that threat, I want 584 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:48,480 Speaker 1: to go back to a couple of your ideas, I mean, Jamie, 585 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 1: the idea of doing less, I think is very interesting. 586 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,120 Speaker 1: I'm reminded of the story of J and J. I 587 00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,920 Speaker 1: don't know if either of you know this story because 588 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 1: it was quite a while, like it was back in 589 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:04,759 Speaker 1: the early nineteen eighties, but there was a psycho who 590 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 1: started poisoning Thailand All in the Chicago area. Three people 591 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:13,680 Speaker 1: died and Jay and Jay's response was to pull all 592 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:17,800 Speaker 1: of the thailand All bottles off every shelf in America. 593 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:21,760 Speaker 1: And they did that because they understood that their entire 594 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 1: reputation as a business was on the line, and that 595 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:29,279 Speaker 1: if they didn't immediately swallow that very bitter pill, no 596 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 1: pun intended, they would be deemed to be part of 597 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:37,359 Speaker 1: the problem in the court of public opinion. And it's 598 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:41,839 Speaker 1: actions like that that build trust for people. Do you 599 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:45,279 Speaker 1: think there's a world in which Jewel would take more 600 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,440 Speaker 1: dramatic action, Jamie in keeping their product out of the 601 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,080 Speaker 1: hands of young people. Yeah, I mean, I actually do 602 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 1: think it was fairly dramatic for them to take all 603 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 1: their flavored products off the market. As I said before, 604 00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,359 Speaker 1: that was a huge part of their revenue stream. So 605 00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:02,920 Speaker 1: I think that was a dramatic action. But my perception 606 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,319 Speaker 1: of this company is just that they sort of can't 607 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:09,160 Speaker 1: help themselves. Like at several junctures when I was reporting 608 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:11,479 Speaker 1: my book, it seemed like they were on the right track, 609 00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,319 Speaker 1: or they'd gotten the right advice from health experts, they 610 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:17,319 Speaker 1: had all of the tools to make good decisions, and 611 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,000 Speaker 1: then they just veered left and did the complete opposite thing. 612 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 1: So in my view, it's maybe at this point less 613 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 1: about making further dramatic actions and were just about doing 614 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,440 Speaker 1: the things that people have told them for years will work. 615 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:32,840 Speaker 1: I mean, they already have market share, they already have 616 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,759 Speaker 1: name recognition. In my eyes, there's not a whole lot 617 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,720 Speaker 1: they have to do except stop getting in your own way. Yeah, 618 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 1: that's very interesting. I agree Greg your idea about Jewel 619 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,800 Speaker 1: essentially pivoting to pin a star to their own chest 620 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,840 Speaker 1: and become the sheriff in the space. I think the 621 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,879 Speaker 1: idea of pivoting to be a more activist brand that 622 00:39:55,080 --> 00:40:00,200 Speaker 1: is pro vaping but anti smoking and anti Cowboy eight 623 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:05,200 Speaker 1: companies would be another way to potentially heal trust. Do 624 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:09,440 Speaker 1: you think that's something that they have the stomach to do. Absolutely. 625 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:13,799 Speaker 1: They have a very large team of attorneys. They have 626 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,440 Speaker 1: a lot of influence from Altria, which has never shied 627 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:21,200 Speaker 1: away from being in the courtroom and going after their 628 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:25,600 Speaker 1: competitors with a great deal of fury. So I think 629 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:31,239 Speaker 1: that is a potential pathway. Yeah, is the Altria ownership 630 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:35,560 Speaker 1: steak a conflict of interest? There? Would they ever say, no, 631 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:37,880 Speaker 1: we want to buy ourselves back. We're going to go 632 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,239 Speaker 1: find a big rich friend, somebody who is not a 633 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,400 Speaker 1: tobacco company, and we're going to buy your steak. So 634 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,600 Speaker 1: I'm sure Altria would be thrilled to be rid of 635 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:51,839 Speaker 1: the albatross that has become Jewel. But ultimately, I think 636 00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:55,360 Speaker 1: Altria wants to stick around. I think they see value 637 00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:59,040 Speaker 1: in the brand. But you never know. Silicon Valley is 638 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,880 Speaker 1: a place, as aultre to learn, where you have crazy 639 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:04,600 Speaker 1: valuations and people can sometimes bring out the check book 640 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:09,600 Speaker 1: in unexpected ways. The Ultria investment brought so much bad 641 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,399 Speaker 1: press and just further scrutiny and Jewel, but at this 642 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,600 Speaker 1: point they have so many lawsuits coming at them that 643 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:19,080 Speaker 1: I think they sort of need Aultrea's support at this point. 644 00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:22,840 Speaker 1: And the FTC is actually trying to unwind ur suing 645 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:26,120 Speaker 1: to unwind that investment. So potentially this will be out 646 00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,200 Speaker 1: of their control and will happen whether they like it 647 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 1: or not. But I think at this point Jewel is 648 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:34,200 Speaker 1: a little vulnerable and kind of needs that. Jamie brings 649 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:38,240 Speaker 1: up a very good point with the lawsuits against Jewel, 650 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:41,920 Speaker 1: because what you will likely end up with is you 651 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:45,520 Speaker 1: now have multidistrict litigation. There's already been a settlement in 652 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:49,000 Speaker 1: North Carolina, and there's likely to be a very large, 653 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:54,200 Speaker 1: substantial settlement with all of the states school districts, local 654 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:58,040 Speaker 1: governments that have sued Jewel, And so I think Jewel 655 00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:01,520 Speaker 1: recognizes that part of their path way forward is to 656 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:07,920 Speaker 1: enter into a multidistrict settlement that restricts them in ways 657 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:10,959 Speaker 1: that they are already restricting themselves. So I think part 658 00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:14,040 Speaker 1: of Jewels strategy is eventually we're gonna have to settle, 659 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:16,280 Speaker 1: We're gonna have to cut a big check, and Altree 660 00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:19,160 Speaker 1: is going to be helpful with that legal strategy, but 661 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:24,759 Speaker 1: they see the settlement as their path to that permission 662 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:29,239 Speaker 1: to exist in the future. It strikes me that there 663 00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,440 Speaker 1: is more that the company could do to keep its 664 00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,799 Speaker 1: products out of the hands of young people that would 665 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:43,279 Speaker 1: have potentially symbolic value. One is biometric locks. And you know, 666 00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,560 Speaker 1: although the gun industry has its own issues and has 667 00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:50,640 Speaker 1: been slow to actually implement ideas like this, there are 668 00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,879 Speaker 1: biometric locks that make it impossible for anyone to fire 669 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:55,839 Speaker 1: a gun if they're not the owner of that gun. 670 00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,920 Speaker 1: That might be possible in the dual device as well. 671 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,520 Speaker 1: Do you think about doing something like that. There's great 672 00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,759 Speaker 1: potential in that idea, and Jewel has already explored it. 673 00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:10,239 Speaker 1: When they entered the marketing Canada. They attempted to do 674 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:12,880 Speaker 1: a system where people would have to log in and 675 00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:15,840 Speaker 1: upload a copy of their driver's licensibly for their product 676 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:17,840 Speaker 1: to be able to work. Then they ran into the 677 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:24,600 Speaker 1: problem that the app stores for both Apple and Google, Android, etcetera. 678 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:29,600 Speaker 1: They have banned all vaping product apps. But you need 679 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:32,600 Speaker 1: to keep in mind with these tech options. The places 680 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:38,760 Speaker 1: with the highest smoking rates in America West Virginia, Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama. 681 00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:42,280 Speaker 1: These are states that do not have in some places, 682 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,520 Speaker 1: consistent internet connection. These are places where some people live 683 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,920 Speaker 1: without the Internet, without a phone with four G enabled 684 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:52,720 Speaker 1: from their home. So you can't forget about the lower 685 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:56,879 Speaker 1: socioeconomic smokers who if you make it too techy, they 686 00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,120 Speaker 1: may just decide, you know what's really easy lighting up 687 00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:04,440 Speaker 1: a Marlborough right? What about treating it like cannabis and 688 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:06,920 Speaker 1: making dispensaries. You know that we're just making it harder 689 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:09,719 Speaker 1: to get at. I do think you'd run into some 690 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,239 Speaker 1: of the same access problems we were talking about with 691 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:15,320 Speaker 1: the prescription products. But you know, at the same time, 692 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:19,600 Speaker 1: this is the huge issue for both jewel and the 693 00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:21,719 Speaker 1: vaping industry as a whole. So I do think to 694 00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:26,319 Speaker 1: your earlier point, dramatic action might be in the long run, 695 00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:28,840 Speaker 1: a better path for them. It's an interesting idea and 696 00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,360 Speaker 1: maybe something they should think a little more seriously about, 697 00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:33,719 Speaker 1: a sort of a short term drop in profits in 698 00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:37,680 Speaker 1: pursuit of fixing this long standing problem. I would prefer 699 00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:39,680 Speaker 1: if you're going to do it, you do it legislatively. 700 00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:43,600 Speaker 1: We're not just vaping products, but cigarettes as well. Get 701 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:47,080 Speaker 1: restricted to age restricted stores, and there is some form 702 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:53,000 Speaker 1: of geographic limitations where if a population is not X 703 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:57,960 Speaker 1: then there are less restrictions. Because we want people. It's 704 00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,200 Speaker 1: not like cannabis, where you go to a store once 705 00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:03,520 Speaker 1: every two weeks to get what you need. People are 706 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,560 Speaker 1: used to going in and buying their pack of cigarettes 707 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:10,920 Speaker 1: in the morning, every day or every other day. Okay, 708 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,400 Speaker 1: is there anything else that you think Jewel ought to 709 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:17,399 Speaker 1: consider doing in order to get themselves out of this ditch? 710 00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:21,120 Speaker 1: One idea I've heard. I don't know if I necessarily 711 00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:23,719 Speaker 1: I haven't processed it fully enough to know if I 712 00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:25,480 Speaker 1: even agree with this, but I'll just throw it out 713 00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:27,600 Speaker 1: there because it's something i've heard that I find interesting 714 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:31,680 Speaker 1: is the idea of actually redesigning what the Jewel device 715 00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:34,440 Speaker 1: looks like, because a lot of the criticism the company 716 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,040 Speaker 1: gets is that the product is so techy and looks 717 00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:39,799 Speaker 1: like a flash drive, and it's easy to conceal um 718 00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,239 Speaker 1: and to use discreetly, like you know, in a classroom 719 00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:44,319 Speaker 1: or even in a home, you wouldn't necessarily know that 720 00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:48,000 Speaker 1: someone's using it. So I have heard it said that potentially, 721 00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:51,160 Speaker 1: if Jewell wanted to really take a dramatic action which 722 00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:54,440 Speaker 1: would set off a whole separate process of needing to 723 00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:57,960 Speaker 1: file new FDA applications, they could think about making the 724 00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:01,279 Speaker 1: device look less appealing. Yeah, I like that. I think 725 00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:05,520 Speaker 1: that is interesting, Greg, anything else, I don't think that 726 00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:09,319 Speaker 1: is a bad idea at all. Ultimately, to go back 727 00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:12,800 Speaker 1: to Jamie's earlier point, I think Jewel just needs time 728 00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:16,520 Speaker 1: not being or not volunteering themselves to be the center 729 00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:20,960 Speaker 1: of attention. Adult smokers know they exist, the vapors that 730 00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,320 Speaker 1: are using the product, no, they exist. And I think 731 00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:30,040 Speaker 1: the farther you get away from the controversies of and 732 00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:32,759 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen when the company was being run by tech 733 00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:37,040 Speaker 1: bros in Silicon Valley who actively resisted hiring people from 734 00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:39,960 Speaker 1: the tobacco industry that knew what this fight was about 735 00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:43,560 Speaker 1: and how dirty it could get, the better for Jewels. 736 00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:46,319 Speaker 1: So I think we need, as Jamie said, less big 737 00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:50,680 Speaker 1: ideas and more just functioning as a company and seeing 738 00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:54,760 Speaker 1: their youth usage rates drop even lower than they are now. 739 00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:57,640 Speaker 1: That's great. So I want to thank you both for 740 00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:00,920 Speaker 1: being here today. This was a great discussion. To wrap 741 00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:03,840 Speaker 1: it up, I want to ask each of you to 742 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:08,400 Speaker 1: give Jewel a B S score. So on a scale 743 00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:12,680 Speaker 1: of zero two, one being the worst total b S 744 00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:17,879 Speaker 1: and zero being the best zero bs, what score would 745 00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:24,239 Speaker 1: you give Jewel? Jamie, you first, So I think my 746 00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:27,480 Speaker 1: answer to this question very much depends on the time. 747 00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:31,360 Speaker 1: I think for many of jewels early years, the score 748 00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:35,480 Speaker 1: would be pretty close to the top of the scale. 749 00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:38,560 Speaker 1: I think now they have made some steps in the 750 00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:43,239 Speaker 1: right direction. They have basically stopped advertising their behaving more 751 00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:45,800 Speaker 1: like how you would expect a company in this space 752 00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,080 Speaker 1: to behave. So this is a long way of saying 753 00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:51,160 Speaker 1: now I would put the score maybe closer to fifty. 754 00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,040 Speaker 1: I think there's definitely room for improvement, that they have 755 00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:59,880 Speaker 1: also made some positive movements. Fair enough, I I accept that. 756 00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:03,520 Speaker 1: And Greg, what do you think about this? What's your score? 757 00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:11,520 Speaker 1: So similar to Jamie in the early twenty nineteen, it's 758 00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:16,200 Speaker 1: more of a fifty. Perhaps Ultimately, when you look at 759 00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:21,560 Speaker 1: the scope bad behavior by American corporations, spilling oil in 760 00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:25,319 Speaker 1: the ocean, killing people with bad drugs, etcetera. Jewel never 761 00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:28,080 Speaker 1: did any of that. Jewel has never killed anyone. Jewel 762 00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:32,239 Speaker 1: has really never done physical injury to anyone. They had 763 00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:36,040 Speaker 1: a bunch of very tech minded people that did not 764 00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:38,680 Speaker 1: think they were in the tobacco industry, that thought everything 765 00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:40,520 Speaker 1: was gonna be okay, that they could out and grow 766 00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:43,880 Speaker 1: their problems, and they've failed, so during that time period, 767 00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:46,560 Speaker 1: maybe about a fifty. Today I would put it more 768 00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:50,480 Speaker 1: as a twenty because they are being more run like 769 00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:54,160 Speaker 1: a tobacco company. Their CEO as a former Altrea executive. 770 00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:57,640 Speaker 1: They know how to stay out of trouble, which is 771 00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:02,040 Speaker 1: one important thing for Jewel to rebuild trust. Okay, fair enough, 772 00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:05,720 Speaker 1: thank you for that. I appreciate you both being here. Sure, 773 00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,239 Speaker 1: thanks so much for having me, absolutely and thanks for 774 00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:19,279 Speaker 1: having me. Okay, it's time to give Jewel my official 775 00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:23,200 Speaker 1: BS score. As you've heard from our guest today, this 776 00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:27,719 Speaker 1: one is complicated. Jewel was definitely a huge bullshitter in 777 00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,280 Speaker 1: the early days because they screwed up their marketing big 778 00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:34,960 Speaker 1: time and wound up appealing to young people. But since 779 00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:38,080 Speaker 1: then they've made some important moves in the right direction. 780 00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:43,680 Speaker 1: I'm going to give today's Jewel a forty nine. To 781 00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:47,920 Speaker 1: weigh in with your own score, visit our website Calling 782 00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:52,400 Speaker 1: Bullshit Podcast dot com. We'll track Jewel's behavior over time 783 00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:55,799 Speaker 1: to see if they can bring that score down. You'll 784 00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:58,600 Speaker 1: also be able to see where Jewel ranks on bullshit 785 00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,880 Speaker 1: compared to the other companies we feature on this show. 786 00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:06,480 Speaker 1: And if you're running a purpose led business, or you're 787 00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:09,839 Speaker 1: thinking of beginning the journey of transformation to become one. 788 00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:14,760 Speaker 1: Here are three things you should take away from this episode. One, 789 00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:18,200 Speaker 1: your purpose, once you've defined it, should be used to 790 00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:21,320 Speaker 1: determine all of the actions that you take as a business, 791 00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:25,920 Speaker 1: including your marketing. Jewel forgot this and paid a steep 792 00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:29,320 Speaker 1: price for making a product that should have targeted adults 793 00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:33,800 Speaker 1: and then marketed it to kids. Two. Once you've gotten 794 00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:37,920 Speaker 1: off track, all is definitely not lost. You just have 795 00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:41,200 Speaker 1: to get your actions back in line with your stated purpose. 796 00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:46,080 Speaker 1: In Jules case, we've heard suggested actions like changing the 797 00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:49,400 Speaker 1: physical design of the product to be less appealing to 798 00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:53,400 Speaker 1: young people, or becoming an activist in the vaping space 799 00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:56,960 Speaker 1: to try to get the whole category realigned toward adults. 800 00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:01,680 Speaker 1: Your actions would undoubtedly be different, but the key is 801 00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:05,320 Speaker 1: finding things to do that are iconic, i e. Dramatic 802 00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:09,920 Speaker 1: actions that rebuild the trust that's been broken. And Three, 803 00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:15,080 Speaker 1: there's a huge difference between managing shareholders and managing stakeholders. 804 00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:19,760 Speaker 1: If your shareholders are happy but your broader stakeholders aren't, 805 00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:22,640 Speaker 1: you're gonna need to make a change in your approach. 806 00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:27,520 Speaker 1: In Jewel's case, parents and the FDA were major stakeholders 807 00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,360 Speaker 1: that Jewel did a really poor job of managing and 808 00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:35,520 Speaker 1: it hurt them badly. And Casey cross the way, CEO Jewel. 809 00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:37,880 Speaker 1: If you ever want to come on this show to 810 00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:42,920 Speaker 1: discuss any aspects of this episode, you have an open invitation. 811 00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:54,400 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us today, Lauren Edtter, Jamie Douche, arm 812 00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:58,040 Speaker 1: and Greg Connolly. You can find their social media handles 813 00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:02,640 Speaker 1: on our website, Colling Bullshit Podcast dot com. While you're there, 814 00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:06,759 Speaker 1: check out Lawrence book The Devil's Playbook, Big Tobacco and 815 00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:10,800 Speaker 1: the Addiction of a New Generation and Jamie's book Big Vague, 816 00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:15,000 Speaker 1: The Incendiary Rise of Jewel. I have an idea for 817 00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:17,720 Speaker 1: a company or organization we should consider for the show. 818 00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:21,080 Speaker 1: You can submit it on the site too. That's Calling 819 00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:25,280 Speaker 1: Bullshit Podcast dot com. And if we hooked you today, 820 00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:28,799 Speaker 1: subscribe to the Calling Bullshit Podcast on the I Heart 821 00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:33,000 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. 822 00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:39,560 Speaker 1: And thanks to our production team, Susie Armitage, Amanda Ginsburg, 823 00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:47,000 Speaker 1: ds Moss, Andy Kim, Hannah Beale, MICHAELA. Reid, Lena Beck, Silison, 824 00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:52,600 Speaker 1: Jess Fenton and Basil Soaper. Calling Bullshit was created by 825 00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:55,960 Speaker 1: co Collective and is hosted by Me Time Onto You. 826 00:52:56,960 --> 00:53:03,880 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, Be and Gree