1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. 2 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy two, when my father, who had just 3 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 2: gotten out of the Marine Corps, relocated our family to 4 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 2: Georgia from Louisiana. 5 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: I was a kid. 6 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 2: He took me for a drive in Atlanta, Georgia, and 7 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 2: you know how it is when you're little, The world 8 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 2: that you're surrounded by at that age seems so big. 9 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 2: You can go to your grandparents house, you can think 10 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 2: about it. Back then, things seem so much bigger than 11 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 2: they they actually were, particularly when you get to revisit 12 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 2: those locations as an adult. But you know, back then, 13 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy two, I was in the front seat 14 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 2: of his forward pickup truck and we're driving down the road. 15 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:14,559 Speaker 2: He said, I'm going to take you somewhere and show 16 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 2: you where the meanest men in America live. Now, this 17 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 2: is in Atlanta, Georgia, And I had no idea. I 18 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 2: didn't even know anything about Atlanta. 19 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:25,559 Speaker 1: We just moved there. 20 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 2: So we're riding down the road and suddenly I looked 21 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 2: through the windshield. At his direction, he said, look straight ahead, 22 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:39,960 Speaker 2: and all I could see was this big gray mass 23 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 2: of buildings surrounded by fencing. And as we grew closer 24 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 2: and closer, those buildings filled up the entire windshield. You 25 00:01:55,840 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 2: couldn't see anything but gray mass of gray stone. And 26 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 2: what I was looking at was actually the Federal penitentiary 27 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 2: that is located in Atlanta, Georgia, and. 28 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: It looked scary. 29 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,919 Speaker 2: And as I came to find out later, some of 30 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 2: the most notorious criminals in America had been placed there 31 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 2: and had passed through there at some point time. I 32 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 2: was amazed at the names. And even as an adult 33 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 2: when I began to work in Atlanta as a representative 34 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 2: of the Medical Examiner's Office, every now and then i'd 35 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 2: have to drive by that prison, and even in a 36 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 2: passing glance, that child that I was back in seventy 37 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 2: two would re emerge, and I still viewed that place 38 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 2: as very, very scary. But there's another scary place that 39 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 2: is a federal facility, and it's located in Manhattan, and 40 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 2: we're going to talk today about one of the former 41 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 2: residents there. We're going to talk about the death of 42 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 2: Jeffrey Epstein. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bags, Dave. 43 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: I thought about you. 44 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 2: You and I have these so many commonalities growing up 45 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 2: essentially roughly the same circa. I guess, do you have 46 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:28,639 Speaker 2: those memories of places that were daunting to you as 47 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:31,359 Speaker 2: a child and then maybe you revisit them when you're 48 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 2: older And it doesn't seem that way. 49 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 3: When I was a kid growing up in southern California, 50 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 3: and as we would drive from where we lived in 51 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 3: Orange County to grand my grandpa and grandmother's house in 52 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 3: North Hollywood, we would drive by downtown Los Angeles. You 53 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 3: could see all the buildings, the important buildings, and I 54 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 3: was a little kid, okay, but I remember my mother 55 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 3: pointing to one of the buildings and saying, that is 56 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 3: where Sir Hans Sirhan is right now, and she would 57 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 3: give it. We had five kids in our familure, and 58 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 3: my mother would give the history of who he was 59 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 3: and other criminals that were localized, but that's the one 60 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 3: I remember the most was and she said, when you 61 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 3: get older, you need to look into that. And she 62 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,359 Speaker 3: wasn't a conspiracy person, but she was very top of 63 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 3: topical current active, you know, in politics and things. And 64 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 3: I remember this building and it was it's a building 65 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 3: like if you watch dragonet or Adam twelve or any 66 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 3: of the you know shows from the late sixties and 67 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 3: early seventies Prime in LA they had the same building, 68 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 3: the municipal building, and yeah, I remember that, and I 69 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:34,840 Speaker 3: remember I would always try to look at the top 70 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 3: of it to see if I wonder if he's looking 71 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 3: out the window, you know that kind of thing. 72 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 2: No, kid, And you know what that building is so iconic. 73 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 2: I think it's actually on LAPD's badge. 74 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 4: Probably is. 75 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 2: When you look at an LAPD badge, that building is 76 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 2: on there, and it's really cool. Those badges are something 77 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 2: to see. But yeah, yeah, there are those moments in 78 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 2: Tom that you know that you kind of drift back. 79 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 2: Stepping back just a second. I have to say that 80 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 2: the morning that he was discovered deceased, I had a 81 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 2: producer at then hl N that doesn't exist anymore, reach 82 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:20,840 Speaker 2: out to me and say can you come to studio? 83 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:23,599 Speaker 2: We would, and I'll never forget it. I was on 84 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 2: air with this one of my favorite reporters, a lady 85 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 2: named Elizabeth Prant, and the reason I really like her 86 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 2: as her husband was a picture for the Braves and 87 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 2: she I had asked her about her husband. 88 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: But you know the. 89 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 2: I remember sitting there and having heard everything about Epstein 90 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 2: over the years leading up to this moment in time 91 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 2: where he was now confirmed to be deceased. I was thinking, 92 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 2: it was kind of a surreal moment, you know, because 93 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 2: they're flashing and when you're in one of these studios, 94 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 2: flashing up on the screen, those big images, you know, 95 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:04,720 Speaker 2: and I could you try not to look at the 96 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 2: images because you're looking at the person talking to. 97 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: You, right, couldn't help it. 98 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 2: I kept cutting my eye over and I was thinking, 99 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 2: they've got me here talking about this on a Sunday morning. 100 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 2: I was amazed that I was having that conversation. And 101 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 2: I remember then thinking, you know, how in the world 102 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 2: could arguably, I guess, one of the most recognizable convicted 103 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 2: and also continued to be accused criminals in the world. 104 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 1: Be dead, be. 105 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 2: Dead in a federal facility. That when you think about it, 106 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 2: you know, I think that our mind often defaults to 107 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 2: this idea that, Okay, it's a federal it's a federal facility, 108 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 2: it's a lockdown. It's probably arguably maybe one of the 109 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 2: most secure places in all of Manhattan, at least it 110 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 2: was not the Eastern Seaboard. I don't know, but he 111 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 2: nonetheless he was dead. 112 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 3: They kept all the biggest, hardest criminals up there. But 113 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 3: while they were in the process of heading to trial, 114 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 3: his roommate, you know at the time is Seally was 115 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 3: a cop who a former cop who had killed four people, 116 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 3: you know, was a bodybuilder steroid. Between that who and 117 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 3: was a big crime guy there. I mean, they had 118 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 3: the biggest criminals in the right. There, here's the key though. 119 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 3: You mentioned the day he was found dead. I remember 120 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 3: before that, on July twenty three, when he was attacked 121 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 3: in his cell or committed tried to commit suicide depending, 122 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 3: all right, we covered that on Nancy Grace got a 123 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 3: phone call that hey, we got to get on this story. 124 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 3: And so before the death we were going in death. 125 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 3: We'd already done a number of stories on Epstein and 126 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 3: Gallaine Maxwell trying to figure out how. 127 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: To spell her name and pronounce it. 128 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that was butchered so many times until we 129 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 3: finally got to Gilaine. Anyway, we covered it. For those 130 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 3: of you listening to the programmed Body Bags, if you 131 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 3: don't know did Jeffrey Epstein story, we could start talking 132 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 3: about it. 133 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 4: Now. 134 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 3: I looked over the timeline and we could do five 135 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 3: shows on it. Not get all the information and still 136 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 3: not make it to where we're starting today. Right now, 137 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 3: we're at the point where Jeffrey Epstein is in jail. 138 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 3: He has been arrested and charged with a number of crimes, 139 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 3: and they all involve sex with minors, with underage young ladies, 140 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 3: and the abuse is in rape, and it's pretty extensive 141 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 3: because of his friends. He had friends that stretched all 142 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 3: the way to the Royal Palace in England, to the 143 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 3: White House in Washington, DC and many points in between. 144 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:39,199 Speaker 3: He's a multi millionaire. On July twenty third, he was 145 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 3: already in prison, he was already at MCC and we 146 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 3: got this story that he had tried to commit suicide. 147 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 3: We didn't know if he was dead, We didn't know 148 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 3: what was going on, but it turned out that he 149 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 3: had injuries. One twenty seven In the morning, July twenty third, 150 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 3: corrections officers responded to his cell where they found him 151 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 3: with an orange cloth around his neck. His cell mate 152 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 3: told officers that Epstein tried to hang himself. Medical staff 153 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 3: examined Epstein observed friction marks and superficial reddening around his 154 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 3: neck and on his knee, and they placed him on 155 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 3: suicide watch. Border prison's policy requires that inmates identified as 156 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 3: suicide rigs be placed on suicide watch until they're no 157 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 3: longer ineminent threat, and he's watching them twenty four to 158 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 3: seven camera, not you know, all the time, and it 159 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 3: gets less restrictive. But the reason this is important is 160 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 3: because of what happened here. At first, it was his 161 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 3: sell He's saying he tried to commit suicide. But they 162 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 3: looked at him like, well, the injuries don't match a suicide, 163 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 3: you know, it doesn't fit and the like and by 164 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 3: the way, why didn't you stop him, or why didn't 165 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 3: you tell somebody you know? And then it went well, 166 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 3: I'm not sure, and Epstein said he didn't know what happened. 167 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 3: He didn't remember anything. At first, he said his cell 168 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 3: mate attacked him. That was the other thing. He said, 169 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 3: his cell mate attacked him and tried to kill him. 170 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 3: And then when they came back and like, okay, some 171 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 3: may said you try to commit suicide, you're saying it 172 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 3: was the cell mate. And by then Epstein changes it story. 173 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 3: He says, I don't know what happened. I can't remember anything, 174 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 3: and I'm not talking anymore. 175 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: And that was it. 176 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, that sounds obviously I don't know. My first reaction 177 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 2: to that, Dave, when you say it, is that this 178 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:15,680 Speaker 2: sounds like somebody that's terrified. And let's let's look back 179 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 2: at this guy. We're talking about how much money he had, 180 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 2: just the home that he had in Manhattan, this brownstone 181 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 2: that he'd lived in. I guess you would call it 182 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 2: a brownstone. Some people refer to it as a mansion. 183 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 2: By New York standards, that structure alone is massive, and 184 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 2: I think by anybody's standards, this guy has money. Obviously, 185 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 2: they talk about Little Saint James the island, you know, 186 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 2: who owns an island, And then you think about this 187 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 2: huge ranch out in New Mexico that just goes on vast, 188 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 2: you know, and you hear all of these stories, and 189 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 2: one of the things that always troubled me, and I 190 00:10:57,679 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 2: don't know, maybe I'm just applying too much a lot 191 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 2: without enough data, but I begin to think about all 192 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:12,680 Speaker 2: of these young women that had been brought into his sphere. 193 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 2: And many of these young women were from places like 194 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 2: Eastern Europe, and allegedly many of them were not just underage, 195 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 2: they were significantly underage. And I had thoughts about this, Dave. 196 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 2: You know, so after you're done with these young women, 197 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 2: do you put them back on a flight and take 198 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 2: them to these nowhere places in eastern Europe where they're 199 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 2: recruited from? 200 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 1: Where do you go? 201 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 2: Do you just do you take them into the US 202 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 2: and just like you know, a caged cage doves, you 203 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 2: just kind of let them go and fly where they want. 204 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 2: Are they wandering around somewhere? What happened to all of 205 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 2: those women, those young girls that that was always a 206 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 2: head scratcher for me because the story still has blanks 207 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 2: that have yet to be filled in. But I know this, 208 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 2: I know that he's He's deceased, obviously and under very 209 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 2: suspicious circumstances. And for me, as as a death investigator, 210 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 2: what I have heard and certainly now based upon the 211 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 2: photographs that have been released from autopsy, have observed none 212 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 2: of these injuries marry up with a classic presentation for him. 213 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:57,680 Speaker 2: I've never told you this, Dave. I hated working cases 214 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 2: in jail for abilities, and I've had to over the years. 215 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 1: I've had to go for. 216 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:09,479 Speaker 2: Hangings, natural desks, I've had to visit jail infirmaries for stabbings. 217 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 2: I hate it, I despise it, and I think A 218 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 2: lot of it has to do with you're treated like 219 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 2: an inmate when you show up, you know, because all 220 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 2: of us forends that guys have. You know, we have 221 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 2: scene bags, we have seen kids, and they have to 222 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 2: go through all of that stuff. Not that I'm bringing 223 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 2: in anything you know that I shouldn't have, but they're 224 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 2: going to check you out thoroughly if you're if you're 225 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 2: carrying a weapon, you have to surrender that. And then 226 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 2: you know, you walk in and you know that old 227 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 2: adage about hearing that door shut behind you. It's a 228 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 2: real thing, man, I mean, it really is. And and 229 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 2: the odd thing about being inside of a facility like 230 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:59,079 Speaker 2: this is that any noise that is made in there 231 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 2: because of the structure, because of the stone walls or 232 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 2: poured walls and all of the metal framing, it amplifies 233 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 2: in that environment. So if somebody in a cell, you know, 234 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:16,079 Speaker 2: down the way, coughs, you hear it, it sounds like 235 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 2: they're right next to you. 236 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 3: And so when you go to a jail to examine somebody, 237 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 3: do you actually get them, do you actually go to 238 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 3: where it took place, like in the cell? 239 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, I've specifically done that. Not all people 240 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 2: are removed from cells and taken to an infirmary. And 241 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 2: you know, and that's one of the things that had 242 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 2: occurred allegedly with Epstein. His brother had talked about it extensively. 243 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 2: Where when Epstein was discovered, one of the jailers actually 244 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 2: either the jailer had conflicting statements. He said that he 245 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 2: tore and then he said he cut this noose away 246 00:14:55,640 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 2: from him that is tied off of the top bunk rail. 247 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 4: And let's back up and get to that. 248 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 3: Let's back up for a minute, Joe, because in reality, 249 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 3: when you get there, I have a big question for 250 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 3: you about just because when I wanted to set it 251 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 3: up properly with July twenty third, twenty fourth, because that 252 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 3: attack is where why this shouldn't have happened. This the 253 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 3: reason there is such a focus on July eight. I'm 254 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 3: in August eight, ninth and tenth in Jeffrey Epstein's life 255 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 3: and death is because of July twenty third, twenty fourth. 256 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 3: The man they called, they think he's seriously injured. They 257 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 3: go to his cell. He says, my celly beat me up, 258 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 3: tried to kill me. The cell mate says he tried 259 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 3: to commit suicide. And then as you said, he's so scared. 260 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 3: He says, I want to keep this guy as my 261 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 3: cell mate. And I don't know what happened. I'm not 262 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 3: talking anymore, so you know, some threat. Something happened, and 263 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 3: they analyzed him, they worked with him, they put him 264 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 3: on suicide watch. They did all the things they needed 265 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 3: to do. But on July thirtieth, the Psychology Department sent 266 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 3: an email to seventy mcc New York andes explaining the 267 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 3: need for an appropriate cell mate for Jeffrey Epstein. They 268 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 3: sent that because the cellmate that was leaving was the 269 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 3: former New York cop who had killed four people, later 270 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 3: convicted and sentenced to prison. But they knew that he 271 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 3: was going to be transferred out of the cell on 272 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 3: August eighth, and there needed to be another replacement. He 273 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 3: was not to be left alone because of July twenty third, 274 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 3: twenty fourth. Jeffrey Epstein was not to be left alone. 275 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 3: He was also supposed to be on suicide watch because 276 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 3: of July twenty third, twenty fourth, But as it turned out, 277 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 3: by August eighth, US Marshall Service sent two emails notifying 278 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 3: the MCC staff that Epstein's cellmate was being transferred to 279 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 3: another facility on August ninth. No action was taken to 280 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 3: make sure Epstein had a suitable roommate a cell mate. 281 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 3: Epstein met with his attorneys on August the eighth at 282 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 3: the prison, not unusual for a criminal, but that particular meeting. 283 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 3: On August the eighth, Jeffrey Epstein signed a new last 284 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:09,160 Speaker 3: will and testament. On August ninth, Epstein's cellmate was removed. 285 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 3: This is the lead up from July twenty third, twenty fourth. 286 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 3: There have been multiple emails passed, do not let this 287 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 3: man alone keep a roommate in there. His roommate leaves. 288 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 3: Jeffrey Epstein's left alone. August ninth, after a meeting at 289 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 3: the prison with his lawyers, the mcc New York staff 290 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 3: allowed Epstein to make a phone call in violation of 291 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 3: Board of Prison's policy. It was unrecorded, unmonitored. They don't 292 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:38,439 Speaker 3: know who he talked to. They know what he claimed 293 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 3: to talk to, but they believe it was somebody else 294 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 3: that he had a relationship with. So he's on the 295 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 3: phone talking privately with somebody and that wasn't recorded or 296 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 3: report monitored or anything, so no telling what he said. 297 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 3: Epstein did say he was calling his mother, but they 298 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 3: said it with someone else anyway. August ninth. August ninth, 299 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,440 Speaker 3: inmates are locked in their cells at eight pm, Epstein 300 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,120 Speaker 3: is in a so I'll buy himself for the first time. 301 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 3: When they next found him at six thirty the next morning, 302 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 3: they found him dead. Now before they cut the noos 303 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 3: off and everything else. Okay, tell me what was going 304 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 3: on in that room in Jeffrey Epstein's cell based on 305 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 3: the information we have Now at six thirty in the morning, 306 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:23,359 Speaker 3: when the guy comes in there to check in and 307 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 3: finds out he's dead, we'll deal with all the things 308 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 3: that went wrong to allow that to happen. But bottom line, 309 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 3: there was no cell mate as there was supposed to be, 310 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 3: and he's dead at six thirty in the morning. 311 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 2: When when he's discovered, according to the reports, his buttocks 312 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 2: he's in a semi seated position. And yes, you can 313 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:48,239 Speaker 2: hang yourself while slumped seated. I've had people on their 314 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,199 Speaker 2: knees that have hung themselves. You do not have to 315 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 2: be fully suspended. He was seated, but his buttocks was 316 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,880 Speaker 2: roughly an inch to an inch and a half off 317 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 2: of the floor. So when you have people that hang themselves. 318 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 2: They have a tendency many times to kind of slip 319 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 2: into it and slide slowly down. There's a term that's 320 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 2: been floating around and it's actually referred to as a 321 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:25,160 Speaker 2: soft hanging as opposed to say it just think back 322 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 2: to Western movies with the gallows, where which would be 323 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 2: a hard hanging where you have somebody that drops the 324 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 2: force that air body Jeffrey Epstein weighed approximately one hundred 325 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 2: and eighty pounds, and but you don't have this dropping effect. 326 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 2: You have somebody that is kind of slowly seated going down. 327 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 2: But since their body is not being since his body 328 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:55,360 Speaker 2: is allegedly not being supported by the floor, where does 329 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:59,120 Speaker 2: that leave the weight. Well, the weight is totally being 330 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,679 Speaker 2: supported by this noose that has been formed and that 331 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 2: is around his neck. Here's the problem. When they got 332 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 2: to him, the guard, the corrections officer said that he 333 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 2: either at first he said he tore, then he said 334 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 2: he cut the noose away. 335 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 1: The noose. 336 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 2: Was not recovered and put into evidence. There was another 337 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 2: news that had been tied previously in the cell that 338 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 2: was recovered and there's actually an image of it that 339 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 2: you can see anybody. I recommend strongly that you go 340 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 2: and take a look at it. 341 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 3: There were two nooses, one that was around his neck 342 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 3: and one that was just in the room. 343 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's ripped up that Look, there's ripped up orange. 344 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 4: Uh. 345 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 2: Why sheets in there? That's my big question. And here's 346 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 2: another point as well, why is this damn place so disordered? Dave? 347 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 2: It looks like squalor that he's living in and. 348 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 4: He's the these areas. 349 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 3: These cells are usually pretty austere. They don't have a 350 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,399 Speaker 3: lot of stuff in them because they don't want the 351 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 3: inmates to be able to hide anything. Is squirrelling anything 352 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 3: away that they can then turn into a means of negotiation. Oh, 353 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 3: listen to the extra blankets and things can turn into 354 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 3: money in jail. 355 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 2: Well, do you remember the sixty minutes episode that came 356 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 2: out in the wake of his death, And sixty minutes 357 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,679 Speaker 2: was the first CBS sixty minutes was the first people 358 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 2: to put up images. And I did a screen capture 359 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 2: on some of these things, and those images when you 360 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 2: see them, that top bunk that he was, he suspended 361 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 2: from the side of it, but the top bunk itself, 362 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,400 Speaker 2: let us sink in, didn't have a mattress in it. 363 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 2: It was just a flat frame. There is a mattress 364 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 2: on the floor. There's a mattress on the lower bunk, 365 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 2: but where the mattress would have been on that top bunk, Dave, 366 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 2: there's prescription medications up there. You can see them lined up. 367 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 2: And you know, in my experience, one of the things 368 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:59,120 Speaker 2: that happens in jails is that you are either if 369 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 2: you're having to take medication, you go to the infirmary 370 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 2: and they hand you the medication and they dole it 371 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 2: out in the little white cups, or a pharmacy cart 372 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:15,360 Speaker 2: comes by with a coe along with it and they 373 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 2: will give you your meds through the door. This guy 374 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 2: had meds inside of his cell. How do you explain 375 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 2: that with this idea that he has suicidal ideation or 376 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 2: that he has he is attempted to Why are the 377 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 2: prescription meds in there now? He's also got a seapap machine, 378 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 2: which I think plays into this as well. The cord 379 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 2: is laying there adjacent to it on the floor, and 380 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 2: then there's all these ripped up bits of cloth, orange cloth, 381 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 2: and it looks like you know, for me, I always 382 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 2: imagine jail cells to almost have a military feel to it, 383 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 2: like you get punished if the place is not squared away. 384 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 2: You're not supposed to be laying on your bunk. You're 385 00:22:57,880 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 2: supposed to be you can sit on your bunk with 386 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 2: your feet on the floor. You can sit in a 387 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:03,360 Speaker 2: chair that they might provide to you. You can sit 388 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 2: on the floor. You're not supposed to be late. It's 389 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 2: supposed to have almost this ordered not necessarily spartan, but 390 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 2: it's supposed to be squared away. This place was far 391 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:13,640 Speaker 2: from it. 392 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 3: Well, you mentioned the seapap machine. His brother Mark has 393 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 3: really come out in the last several weeks and has 394 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:25,439 Speaker 3: made a lot of comments. And Mark Epstein actually and 395 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 3: it was Mark Epstein who actually asked doctor Michael Boden 396 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,199 Speaker 3: to observe the autopsy, which I want to get into that, 397 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 3: but it was in one of the interviews Mark Epstein 398 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 3: did where he talked about the seapat machine and he said, 399 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,399 Speaker 3: you know, there's all these strips of cloth and sheets 400 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 3: that are torn into making news. Wouldn't the electrical cave, 401 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,440 Speaker 3: you know, plug on the seapad machine been so much 402 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 3: easier to use. It would have been less time, would 403 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 3: have been a lot tougher to it just would have 404 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 3: been a better thing to do than these the sheets. 405 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of indwelling rigidity, which selling rigidity. Yeah, 406 00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 2: you know you've got the wires. They are encased inside 407 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,440 Speaker 2: of a rubber sheath, so it's it's literally reinforced. I've 408 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 2: had people I actually had I know of a lady 409 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,119 Speaker 2: that was on a psych unit and I had to 410 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 2: go to the psych unit and work her her death 411 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 2: because she was in the acute ward and the nurses 412 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 2: had let her keep her hair dryer and she hung 413 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 2: herself with her hair dryer. I've seen this done before. 414 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 2: It is very much. And again she was seated, she 415 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 2: was seated on the floor and kind of and she 416 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 2: was on the other side of a hospital bed, tied 417 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 2: off on the rail, slid down onto the floor, and 418 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,120 Speaker 2: she died. So don't try to tell me that it's 419 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 2: not possible for this to have occurred. And when you 420 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 2: can facilitate it, and you have this rigid, semi rigid 421 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 2: cord that would certainly support the one hundred and eighty 422 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:50,159 Speaker 2: pound man, but you're you're going to defer to a 423 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 2: piece of cloth to utilize it. And let's face it, 424 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 2: this is not like high end you know material. It 425 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 2: would be easy to tear perhaps, and it's hard to 426 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 2: fashion something out of it that that would that would 427 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,439 Speaker 2: work effectively. I'm not saying it couldn't work. I'm just 428 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 2: saying that it's it wouldn't be your first choice in 429 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:16,360 Speaker 2: a circumstance like this. And again with all of those medications. Certainly, 430 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 2: if you were that desperate to take your own life 431 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 2: and you had access to these, why wouldn't you do it? 432 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 2: Why wouldn't you take the backing off of the off 433 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 2: of the seapap machine, plug the thing, the cord, the 434 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,399 Speaker 2: bare cord into the wall, and hold on to the 435 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 2: ends of an electrocute yourself. I don't know, there's any 436 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,919 Speaker 2: number of ways you could do it. But yet he chose, 437 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:41,119 Speaker 2: according to them, to rip up sheets, sheets or clothing 438 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 2: and utilize this as some kind of homemade ligature it 439 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 2: And it just doesn't marry up in my mind. 440 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 3: It also seems like if you were going to if 441 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 3: you were going to take your own life in a 442 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 3: jail cell, you would be mindful of guards walking by 443 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 3: watching video, and you would you would be on the 444 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 3: alert for somebody to catch you. And I would think, 445 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 3: considering what happened July twenty third, twenty fourth with whatever 446 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 3: happened there, whether he was attacked by his cell mat 447 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 3: or tried to commit suicide. They he knew that at 448 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:14,880 Speaker 3: one thirty in the morning, they would get found out 449 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 3: fairly quickly. 450 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 4: He wouldn't have a bunch. 451 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 3: Of extra scraps of cloth ripped. He would just get 452 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 3: whatever he needed and start and do it. Just get 453 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 3: it over with. Yeah, and you've got this other cord 454 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,640 Speaker 3: that would work better. So why is there why are 455 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 3: there so many strips of unused cloth, like he's doing 456 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 3: a project for school instead of just getting whatever I 457 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 3: have to do to kill myself before the guards come back. 458 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: Yeah. 459 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:44,640 Speaker 2: And you know, in my in my history of working suicides, 460 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,640 Speaker 2: people think that it's kind of this long drawn out 461 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 2: process where people sit down and write this longe notes 462 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 2: or the exception, and most of the time, and the 463 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,399 Speaker 2: reason I'm saying this is that many times, once people 464 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,959 Speaker 2: have decided to do this, they do it. It's kind 465 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:02,440 Speaker 2: of like standing on a cliff and you're going to 466 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 2: jump into a body of water. Everybody's you know, standing 467 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:06,679 Speaker 2: there waiting for you to do it, and finally you 468 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,399 Speaker 2: get up the gumption to do it, and you do it. 469 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 2: Why wouldn't he just move forward with that action and 470 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 2: take that action. At that moment, Tom he sits there 471 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 2: and kind of ruminates over this. 472 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 1: I don't know. 473 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 2: I guess he did. But you know, the one thing 474 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 2: that we don't know is we don't really know what 475 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 2: his activities were now, do we, because cameras weren't working. 476 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 2: The documentation is shoddy at best, particularly as it applies 477 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 2: to an inmate that you are actually saying has suicidal ideation. 478 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 2: You know, you need to be on this guy twenty 479 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:47,719 Speaker 2: four to seven and listen. You cannot lack this. You 480 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 2: cannot have this lack of self awareness in the world. 481 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 2: You know who he is. I'm not saying he should 482 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 2: be treated better than anybody else, but certainly you do 483 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 2: grasp the concept that disguise in the national news that 484 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 2: if he is an accused pedophile, that there might be 485 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:12,640 Speaker 2: people within this environment that don't particularly care for pedophiles. 486 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 2: We know what happens in incarcerated situations with people that 487 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 2: do harm to children, and Lord knows he at that time, 488 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 2: he's probably the most famous in the world at this 489 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 2: level that has been accused of this thing and having 490 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,160 Speaker 2: done this over and over and over again. It would 491 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,680 Speaker 2: seem that it would compel the staff to be even 492 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,919 Speaker 2: more vigilant, if you will. But of course, in the 493 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 2: case of Jeffrey Epstein, that didn't happen. As a medical 494 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 2: legal death investigator, I have visited every emergency room within 495 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 2: all of the jurisdictions I have worked in. You spend 496 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 2: a lot of time in emergency rooms, believe it or not. 497 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 2: You show up if you're working for the corner of 498 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 2: the medical examiner, because that's where the remains are, and 499 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 2: you're notified. You're the first person notified when somebody dies. 500 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 2: Many times I'd go to the emergency room just so 501 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 2: I could take a look, maybe do my own examination 502 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 2: tech photos, and then I would determine that moment time 503 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 2: if we need to bring the body in for an 504 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 2: autopsy or just release the body. But you know, Dave, 505 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 2: that the best way to observe any dead body is 506 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 2: in its pristine state in the cells. In this case, 507 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 2: in the cell. And but you know that didn't happen. 508 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 2: And even though Jeffrey Epstein was taken down and then 509 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 2: removed to the infirmary, they didn't stop there. They went 510 00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 2: on to a hospital. At that point in time to. 511 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 3: To be caught up to where we are with the body, 512 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 3: because we've got to get into the autopsy. But Epstein 513 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 3: wasn't supposed to be alone. 514 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 1: He was. 515 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 4: The guards were supposed to be watching. 516 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 3: They were supposed to be going by every thirty minutes 517 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 3: at least, and they were supposed to be watching on video. 518 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 3: We know know the video cameras were not working. We 519 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 3: know that the guards did not check the cell, not 520 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 3: just every thirty minutes, not just every hour. They probably 521 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 3: were asleep and or on the internet googling things face 522 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 3: but whatever. 523 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 2: You mean the guards that were convicted, Yes. 524 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 3: The guards that were convicted for not doing their job 525 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 3: and then lying about it. 526 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, Yes, those are the guards I'm talking about. 527 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: I just wanted to make sure. 528 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, mag I'm glad you got that in because that 529 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 3: it's an important part of the story that went into this, 530 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 3: because it suicide or murder. Well, that's what we've got 531 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 3: to know. And right now, Joe, I have a lot 532 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 3: of suspicion about how many times they were warned, don't 533 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 3: leave him alone, how many times they were warning to 534 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 3: watch him, like who took him off suicide watch? When 535 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 3: they knew that this guy was a potential threat for suicide, right, 536 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 3: But when they took his body out of the cell, 537 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 3: he could have been dead for up to six hours 538 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 3: at that time, Joe, And yet they still went through 539 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 3: he was dead. They still went through all the motions 540 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 3: of putting a gown on him at the hospital like 541 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 3: he was a live guy there and took him into 542 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 3: the hospital. I'm bringing that up because is that a 543 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 3: common occurrence to take a dead body and obviously dead 544 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 3: body and put a hospital gown on them at the hospital. 545 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 2: It seems like you're going to great and most of 546 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 2: the time. Okay, let me explain it to you this way. 547 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 2: His clothing was cut away from his body, which is 548 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 2: standard that does happen because you well, so well, the 549 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 2: EMTs had cut it away apparently, which is even kind 550 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 2: of more interesting because he went to the infirmary, so 551 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 2: after the EMTs nine when one call was placed, So 552 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 2: after they made it through all the levels of security 553 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 2: with everything they have to make it through therewith with 554 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 2: all of the kits and all that stuff, they finally 555 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 2: show up in the infirmary where heroic measures being taken. 556 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 2: Were they still ongoing at that moment time, because we 557 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 2: do know that one of the guards started CPR on 558 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 2: him and started doing chess compressions. Did that continue on 559 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 2: into the infirmary and then and then the EMTs took 560 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 2: over at that point in time as they are transporting 561 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 2: him to the hospital to the emergency room. But back 562 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 2: to your question about it, is it common for them 563 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 2: to put a hospital gown some people. I've heard some 564 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 2: people call him a Johnny Coke, which is kind of interesting, 565 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 2: you know, ties in the back. We've all been subjected 566 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 2: to this humiliation in our lives. Probably the times I've 567 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 2: seen that happen are generally toimes where you're gonna have 568 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 2: family comebin and see a body, because other than that, 569 00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 2: what's what's the point? Because they can becover with the sheet, 570 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,719 Speaker 2: and in hospitals they use what's referred to as a 571 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 2: morg pack, which is a plastic It's different than a 572 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 2: body bag, but it is a plastic sheet that bodies 573 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 2: are almost rolled up in and then it's got strings 574 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 2: that you tied off on the midsection, you tied off 575 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 2: on the ends. It comes with a diagram how to 576 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 2: do it, and then you can place the body after 577 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 2: that onto a tray in the hospital. Morgan the cooler 578 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 2: to preserve the body until the EMME can come and 579 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 2: get the body. The me might put the body in 580 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 2: a body bag at that point in time. I don't know. 581 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 2: It all depends on what their practice is. But most 582 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 2: of the time, you know, when I've seen bodies that 583 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 2: of individuals, certainly you don't put hospital gowns on people 584 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 2: that are long dead. And you know, what does it 585 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 2: benefit What does it profit them to continue to do 586 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 2: CPR on somebody that if in fact they sense that 587 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 2: there are post mortem changes going on. You know, Epstein's 588 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 2: brother actually states that he was told that he believes 589 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 2: that they believed his brother may have been dead for 590 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 2: at least two and a half hours when he was discovered. 591 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,840 Speaker 2: By that moment in time, you're going to see evidence 592 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 2: of things like postmarmal abidity, the settling a blood, which 593 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,319 Speaker 2: we've talked about extensively. On body bags ryger Mortis, you'll 594 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 2: be able to notice some rigidity in the job, which, 595 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 2: by the way, would make it very difficult to intubate 596 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 2: a person because you have to open the mouth to 597 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 2: get the tube in there, which is one of the 598 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,680 Speaker 2: steps if you've got somebody in full cardiac arrest and 599 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 2: respiratory rest. You'll want to get oxygen flowing. Well, it's counterintuitive, 600 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 2: right If somebody's jaw is clinched because of ryger mortis, 601 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,799 Speaker 2: that's an uphill battle. And for anybody that has any 602 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 2: sense about them relative to changes after death, you're going 603 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 2: to recognize that it's a card It's literally what we 604 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 2: refer to as a cardinal sign of death. So and again, 605 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,919 Speaker 2: this is the interesting thing, Dave. We still have yet 606 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 2: to even see the EMT run sheet. It has not 607 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 2: been released, and I would love to be able to 608 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 2: view that and be able to get what their initial 609 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 2: assessment was on him when they picked him up at 610 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 2: the MCU. 611 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 3: I think at this point there are so many things 612 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 3: suspect that going into the autopsy. Now, I'm not shocked 613 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,840 Speaker 3: that Mark Epstein said I want to have somebody representing 614 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,800 Speaker 3: my family in there. At this point, there were already 615 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:35,279 Speaker 3: so many red flags going up. Mark Epstein is the 616 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 3: reason the doctor Michael Bowden was invited in. I did 617 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 3: not realize he was invited in to watch the autopsy. 618 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:43,319 Speaker 3: I thought it was after the fact. So when you 619 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:45,239 Speaker 3: told me that he was actually in there, I thought, well, 620 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 3: this is interesting. 621 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 2: So yeah, hey, listen, a tip of the cap to 622 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 2: the office's chief medical examiner in this case. And I 623 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:58,799 Speaker 2: have participated in autopsies where families have representative pathologists there 624 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 2: to observe, uh, they generally do not How can I 625 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 2: They're not going to be the pro sector, which means 626 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,720 Speaker 2: they're not going to be the person actually doing the dissectionogy, 627 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:11,759 Speaker 2: but they will stand there and generally they won't say 628 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,799 Speaker 2: a word. They're gonna but it's kind of it's kind 629 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:21,200 Speaker 2: of let's see, how can I describe it? You become 630 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,880 Speaker 2: hyper aware of everything you do because you know that 631 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,799 Speaker 2: you're being watched in that environment, and if you're doing 632 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 2: the right thing, it's it's no problem. But can you imagine, 633 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:35,800 Speaker 2: regardless of how anybody feels about doctor Boden, which whom 634 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 2: I respect greatly. I've known doctor Biden for many years, 635 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 2: you've got Michael Boden standing there. I mean, one of 636 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:48,920 Speaker 2: the most renowned forensic pathologists anywhere. You have to know 637 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,279 Speaker 2: that all it's a full core press at this. 638 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 1: Point in time. 639 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 2: So doctor Boden is physically there, and according to Mark Epstein, 640 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,680 Speaker 2: this is where it really if it couldn't get any 641 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 2: any more bizarre. The actual person that ruled made the 642 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 2: ruling on Epstein's death certificate, and remember it was first 643 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:17,640 Speaker 2: listed as undetermined. 644 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:21,840 Speaker 3: They actually find on the autopsy, Joe, what did they see? 645 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's that's the curious thing. When they did 646 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 2: get the neck dissected. First off, let me tell you this. 647 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 2: I will tell you this. I've seen the images of 648 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:39,239 Speaker 2: Epstein's body, Jeffrey Epstein's body when he is coming there. 649 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,720 Speaker 2: There was a camera going when he was being wheeled 650 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 2: into the emergency room. Okay, this is before he's coming 651 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,160 Speaker 2: to his body's coming out. You can clearly see his 652 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:51,680 Speaker 2: face and he's cyanautic, which means he's about the color 653 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:56,880 Speaker 2: of an eggplant, which is consistent. That is consistent with 654 00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:00,840 Speaker 2: an asphixial death and also being in just to failure. 655 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:05,360 Speaker 2: So he's really purple in color, which you will see. 656 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,239 Speaker 2: You can see it in hangings, you can see it 657 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,880 Speaker 2: in manual strangulations. You can see it when somebody is 658 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 2: in great respiratory distress and that blood flow is being 659 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 2: impeded or it backs up to that level in the 660 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:21,400 Speaker 2: neck and it can't kind of recycle. 661 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,320 Speaker 3: Saying, look, whether they did it themselves or had whether 662 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:27,399 Speaker 3: I choke you to death, that you choke yourself out 663 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:29,160 Speaker 3: using a newse same look. 664 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely you can still get that cyanodic appearance. 665 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,880 Speaker 2: And it's really profound. When you see the image of 666 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,719 Speaker 2: him like that, it's striking. As a matter of fact, 667 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:43,400 Speaker 2: it's it's it catches the eye. And one of the 668 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:48,160 Speaker 2: images that I also saw relative to Epstein is his 669 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:53,520 Speaker 2: bottom his lower eyelids being retracted and you can see 670 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 2: the petikia eye in there. So he's got burst blood 671 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,880 Speaker 2: vessels in, you know, on the sclere of his eye. 672 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 2: Know they're there, which again is indicative of an asphixial death. 673 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:09,680 Speaker 2: It's the question is you get there are fixed as 674 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 2: fhixial deaths and then there's asphixial deaths, and so you 675 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,759 Speaker 2: have to kind of try to understand how how do 676 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 2: you come to this? You know, how you how do 677 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,880 Speaker 2: you arrive at suicide versus something else, perhaps something more sinister. 678 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:29,480 Speaker 2: When when Epstein's neck was actually dissected, uh, one of 679 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:34,520 Speaker 2: the interesting things that was discovered was the fact that 680 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 2: his thyroid cartilage was fractured. Okay, it's actually got a fracture. 681 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 2: The cartilage is actually fractured, which is not unusual in 682 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:50,600 Speaker 2: a ligature strangulation. It's also common to see in certain 683 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 2: cases of manual strangulation because if you think about people 684 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:59,239 Speaker 2: throttling somebody and they're applying tremendous force to the UH, 685 00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,960 Speaker 2: to the thyroid cartilage, it can snap, it can break, 686 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,080 Speaker 2: and it's almost like, see, how can I describe it 687 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:11,719 Speaker 2: thyroid cartilage is it's it's like dried wax almost. It 688 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:13,799 Speaker 2: has that kind of feeling to it, and so it 689 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:17,279 Speaker 2: can actually crack, and I would imagine the older you get, 690 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 2: it can possibly possibly become a bit ossified. But here's 691 00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:28,160 Speaker 2: the other thing, the other landmark in the neck that 692 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:31,160 Speaker 2: comes into play. It's going to be the right greater 693 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:33,719 Speaker 2: horn of the hyoid bone. And boy have we talked 694 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,799 Speaker 2: about hyoid bones over the years. The thing about it 695 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:42,759 Speaker 2: is the hyoid bone is it's it's removed from the 696 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 2: thyroid cartilage. It's up, I mean, it's high. It anchors 697 00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:48,600 Speaker 2: the tongue in place, and the right greater horn. If 698 00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,359 Speaker 2: you think about it, I urge anybody to just google it. 699 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:52,920 Speaker 2: You can look it up and see what it looks like. 700 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,239 Speaker 2: So it's the right aspect. It looks like a horseshoe. 701 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:59,759 Speaker 2: So imagine the right aspect of the horseshoe, the very 702 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,799 Speaker 2: tip end of it. It's fractured right there. I think 703 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 2: doctor Biden said he may have seen another fracture along there, 704 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:09,320 Speaker 2: but at least I know the greater horn is fractured, 705 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:11,640 Speaker 2: and then the thyroid Cardler's is fractured, and it's both 706 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:15,879 Speaker 2: on the right side. So how do you arrive at 707 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:19,480 Speaker 2: that with a piece of cloth that you've tied to 708 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:23,920 Speaker 2: the bed that it doesn't have the facility for you 709 00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:28,000 Speaker 2: to jump off of to generate enough energy with your 710 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:31,440 Speaker 2: one hundred and eighty pounds to deliver that kind of 711 00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:36,640 Speaker 2: force to that specific region where that's going to occur. Now, 712 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 2: is it possible for somebody to sit in that slumped 713 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:43,319 Speaker 2: position with that direct pressure on there, Dave, and over 714 00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:47,520 Speaker 2: a period of time maybe it snaps because of the 715 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:51,799 Speaker 2: ongoing pressure. Did he sit down forcefully? Could he have 716 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:57,360 Speaker 2: generated enough energy to have sat down that forcefully? Perhaps? 717 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,520 Speaker 2: But this is one thing that you cannot escape in 718 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,920 Speaker 2: this case. You can I don't care how far and 719 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:06,960 Speaker 2: how fast you run, you can't get away from the 720 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:12,000 Speaker 2: fact that when you see the exterior of Jeffrey Epstein's neck. 721 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:16,840 Speaker 2: That furrow that is on his neck runs parallel to 722 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:19,800 Speaker 2: his shoulders. That means it goes straight back. That's not 723 00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:23,719 Speaker 2: the way Noos has worked, Dave, nooses come. It has 724 00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:27,040 Speaker 2: an apex in the back it where it's where the 725 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,800 Speaker 2: knot is tied. It generally goes up behind the ears 726 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,480 Speaker 2: and comes to a point right there. And we actually, 727 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:38,319 Speaker 2: we actually have a term in forensics that's referred to 728 00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,759 Speaker 2: as tinting feature t E N T I N G. 729 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:44,920 Speaker 2: Not t I N like tinting on a window. This 730 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,200 Speaker 2: is tinting like pup tint. And literally it's what it means. 731 00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:51,520 Speaker 2: It's it's the shape of a pup tint with the 732 00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:55,560 Speaker 2: top of the tint being the apex of the nows itself. Dude, 733 00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:59,200 Speaker 2: that doesn't exist in this case. You would see, you 734 00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,160 Speaker 2: would see this scene coming to a point. This thing 735 00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:04,719 Speaker 2: goes straight back, Dave, straight back. 736 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:06,720 Speaker 4: We w because that type of an injury. 737 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:09,239 Speaker 2: The only thing I could you know. I sat there 738 00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:12,279 Speaker 2: in my mind and I'm thinking, huh, okay, if you 739 00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,240 Speaker 2: want to go with the hanging, the idea of hanging, 740 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:22,640 Speaker 2: how could you generate a furrow, a ligature furrow that 741 00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:26,080 Speaker 2: runs parallel to the shoulders, it goes straight back. Well, 742 00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:28,520 Speaker 2: he'd have to be laying face down on the floor 743 00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:35,319 Speaker 2: as opposed to sitting up and the noose going up 744 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,600 Speaker 2: behind him till it reaches that peak. You would have 745 00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,320 Speaker 2: it peeking, so that you were laying on the floor 746 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,760 Speaker 2: face down with the thing running parallel to your shoulders. 747 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:46,200 Speaker 4: That's not how they found him. 748 00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:48,000 Speaker 2: No, it's not how did they find him? Well, they 749 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:52,120 Speaker 2: found him, according to Mark Epstein, and according to the reports, 750 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,120 Speaker 2: with his buttocks an inch to an inch and a 751 00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:58,239 Speaker 2: half off of the floor, which means the body was 752 00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:01,839 Speaker 2: being supported by the ligature. Are by the news, So 753 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:05,560 Speaker 2: I don't. The question from a scientific standpoint is how 754 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:10,200 Speaker 2: is this explained? And I think that that's very very 755 00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:10,839 Speaker 2: difficult to. 756 00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:12,920 Speaker 4: Explain to I think it's impossible to explain. 757 00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:18,760 Speaker 3: But when it got down to it, looking at this overall, 758 00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:22,719 Speaker 3: you've got the autopsy done, you've got the medical examiner, 759 00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:25,920 Speaker 3: and you've got doctor Michael bidden who has been there 760 00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:30,080 Speaker 3: watching the whole thing. They actually came to an agreement 761 00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,279 Speaker 3: on what they believed. Is that not am I being 762 00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:33,000 Speaker 3: accurate in that? 763 00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:34,320 Speaker 1: Yeah? 764 00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,480 Speaker 2: And here's the thing, And I think that you and 765 00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:40,120 Speaker 2: I had talked about this off air, and you'd actually 766 00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:41,840 Speaker 2: mentioned it to me, and I'd heard it from another 767 00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:48,200 Speaker 2: source that doctor Sampson, I think, who is the chief 768 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:53,080 Speaker 2: medical examiner for New York. She's the one that initially 769 00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,760 Speaker 2: ruled this as an undetermined and then changed that ruling 770 00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:07,400 Speaker 2: to suicide. Here's the problem. According to Mark Epstein, Samson 771 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:09,879 Speaker 2: was not in the autopsy suite. She's not the one 772 00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:12,799 Speaker 2: that did the post. It's doctor Roman, Kristin. I think 773 00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:17,160 Speaker 2: it's Christi or Kristin Roman that actually did the autopsy, 774 00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:24,000 Speaker 2: with doctor Boden observing physically there. So in such a 775 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:29,680 Speaker 2: complex case like this, why first off, why do you 776 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:34,080 Speaker 2: only have one representative from OCME in there and then 777 00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:37,560 Speaker 2: you have doctor Boden. I would think in a high 778 00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,880 Speaker 2: profile case like this, and I know that they're very busy. 779 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,319 Speaker 2: I know they're very busy in New York, and you 780 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:47,239 Speaker 2: know that's the reality of it, but it would seem 781 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:49,319 Speaker 2: to stand the reason I would want to try to 782 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:52,359 Speaker 2: get as many eyes as I possibly could on this case. 783 00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:54,719 Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, i'd have people from US Marshalls. 784 00:45:55,000 --> 00:46:00,200 Speaker 2: I probably have people from FBI physically there observing this, 785 00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,920 Speaker 2: taking photographs and I'd want to get everybody's name that 786 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:07,320 Speaker 2: was present in the autopsy suite. We're starting at I 787 00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:10,040 Speaker 2: don't know whatever time they're going to start at. At 788 00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:13,200 Speaker 2: eight o'clock the next morning, you have an open invitation, 789 00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:16,359 Speaker 2: we would strongly advise you to be here. I want 790 00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:18,719 Speaker 2: as many people in that room as we possibly can. 791 00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,840 Speaker 2: We're going to document each and everything, because when you 792 00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:25,920 Speaker 2: fail to do that, when you don't have when you 793 00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:32,000 Speaker 2: don't have sufficient scientific backing and explanation, you're going to 794 00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:34,240 Speaker 2: wind up with questions and I don't know that we'll 795 00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:39,759 Speaker 2: ever have the answers. And I think one more thing, 796 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:46,880 Speaker 2: thinking about this ligature that was used, and if you 797 00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:51,240 Speaker 2: have any questions about a ligature relative to the marketing 798 00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,440 Speaker 2: that it can lead. I do this with my students 799 00:46:54,480 --> 00:47:01,279 Speaker 2: at Jacksonville State to try to demonstrate the distribution of 800 00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:07,480 Speaker 2: force on a surface. If you take an apple, for instance, 801 00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:13,120 Speaker 2: and if you have like a piece of nylon, you 802 00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:15,640 Speaker 2: wrap it around the circumference of the apple. As you 803 00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:22,040 Speaker 2: begin to tighten that nylon, it can be even dental floss. 804 00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:26,120 Speaker 2: You'll see that it creates a very narrow furrow in 805 00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,720 Speaker 2: the surface of that piece of fruit, and it goes deep, 806 00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:34,440 Speaker 2: whereas if you use something like, I don't know, a 807 00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:39,879 Speaker 2: necktie to try to create a furrow, that furrow, though 808 00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:41,719 Speaker 2: it's going to be wide, it's going to be very 809 00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:42,360 Speaker 2: very shallow. 810 00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:42,680 Speaker 1: Dave. 811 00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:46,680 Speaker 2: In this particular case, this furrow that runs parallel to 812 00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:53,239 Speaker 2: the shoulders of Epstein is deep. It's not something that 813 00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:56,600 Speaker 2: you would commonly associate with a piece of cloth running 814 00:47:56,600 --> 00:48:00,600 Speaker 2: across the neck, unless that piece of cloth was twisted 815 00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:05,760 Speaker 2: so very tightly that it would produce this more narrow surface. 816 00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:10,240 Speaker 2: But here's the problem. We never got to see that news, Diffe, 817 00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:15,280 Speaker 2: because that noose wasn't collected for evidence. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, 818 00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:18,080 Speaker 2: and this is body backs