1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Jim Goal is an auctioneer based in Miami. He says 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: that one day in two thousand and nine, his phone rang. 3 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: The office called me and they said, John McAfee, don't 4 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: call him mccafee. He has called and has properties and 5 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: wants to speak with you. Well, I know who he 6 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: is because everyone was talking about anti virus. So I 7 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: was honored and humbled. Only months earlier, the stock market 8 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: had crashed and the American economy sank into a deep recession. 9 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: Unemployment hit ten percent. People who'd taken out loans on 10 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: homes they couldn't afford lost them. It was a manic 11 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 1: Monday in the financial markets. The now tumbled more than 12 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:46,559 Speaker 1: five hundred points. We're in the midst of a serious 13 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 1: financial crisis. Lehman Brothers, a one hundred and fifty eight 14 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: year old firm, filed for bankruptcy, brought down by bad 15 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: mortgage investments. Lehman, which has twenty five thousand employees, will 16 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: be liquidated. Against this backdrop of banks or closing properties 17 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: and people being forced from their homes. John McAfee wanted 18 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 1: to offload two if he's vacation houses. They were in obscure, 19 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: hard to reach places. One of them in Hawaii had 20 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 1: been a leper colony in the eighteen hundreds. So that's 21 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: not a place where the cruise ships go. They have 22 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: like one flight in and Outamolakai. It's not like going 23 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 1: to Honolulu. And his properties in Rodeo were just north 24 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: of the Mexican border, and there would be mules going 25 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 1: through that area. He had guns in every corner of 26 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: his house. The border patrol was everywhere. You had to 27 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: travel far out of your way to reach those kinds 28 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: of places, and Jim says this was deliberate on McAfee's part. 29 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 1: So he was kind of reclusive, and he liked to 30 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: live well. He traveled the world, and he just wanted 31 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: to get out of the rat race of life. He 32 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: just wanted to get away from it all. McAfee was 33 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: so keen to get rid of his properties and quickly 34 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: that he handed over all responsibilities to Jim, no questions asked. 35 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: He says, I don't really want to be at any 36 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: of the auctions. So I said, well, I'll need powers 37 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 1: of attorney. He gave me either seven or eight powers 38 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: of attorney. And so when I went to Hawaii, I 39 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: sold his home there in Molokai and they would look 40 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: at me like, you have the right to sign this. 41 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 1: I said, here's the power of attorney. This is an 42 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: original copy. Once the houses were gone, McAfee wanted Jim 43 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: to offload other assets. He would say, can you sell these? 44 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: And he dumped like three or four hundred thousand dollars 45 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 1: worth of watches in my lap, Harry Winston eighteen carrot 46 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: white gold, full of diamonds, Patek Philippe, Rolex. He had 47 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: the best of the best. Why was McAfee trying to 48 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: get rid of everything at once? Jim says that McAfee 49 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: didn't even try to hide his reason. He told me, 50 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: you know, people were suing him right and left, so 51 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 1: now he had an unlawful death suit, so he was 52 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 1: he was just fed up. He said, you know, I've 53 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: got a blazon belize. You know I'm selling everything. And 54 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: I remember he said to me, there's no process servers 55 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: where I'm gone. Well delt into this wrongful death lawsuit. 56 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:25,079 Speaker 1: Later in this episode, it involved an extravagant and dangerous 57 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: hobby flying ultralight aircraft at low altitudes, and Jim says 58 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 1: that to get away from that lawsuit, McAfee wanted to 59 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: not only offload all his properties, he also wanted to 60 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: appear to have squandered all of his money, like he 61 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: was just another person who had lost everything in the recession. 62 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: And so Jim found himself providing another service from McAfee. 63 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: I got a call from the New York Times. She 64 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: was a business writer. Her name was Jerry Fabricant, and 65 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: she said, Jim, I'm looking to do a story on 66 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 1: people that had a lot of money and then they 67 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 1: cannot blew up. Jim has an idea, So I called 68 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: up John. I said, John, I know you've had a 69 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: ton of money, and you still love a ton of money, 70 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: but you know you've had, you know, some pitfalls along 71 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: the way, and would you be willing to talk to 72 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: someone with the New York Times? And he says yes, 73 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, he was jumping for joy. In August 74 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: two thousand and nine, The New York Times publishes a 75 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: story headlined Rise of the super Rich hits a sobering wall. 76 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 1: Geraldine Fabricat reports that he's one hundred million dollar fortune 77 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: had dwindled to four million. She writes an additional article, 78 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 1: once the property is sold, there is no mention of 79 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: the wrongful dead lawsuit in either of the stories. Instead, 80 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 1: McAfee is said to be selling because he wanted to 81 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: spend more time in Beliefs because of its favorable taxes. 82 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,160 Speaker 1: Jim says that McAfee didn't tell the reporter the whole truth. 83 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: He was certainly not in distress, and you know, it 84 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 1: was like, you know, a wink, and like I'm gonna 85 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:13,039 Speaker 1: be just fine, meaning money wise, okay, with all these lawsuits, 86 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: the wrongful death and everything else. He liked the appearance 87 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: of losing a lot of money to kind of keep 88 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 1: people away from these lawsuits. You know that we're probably 89 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 1: asking for financial statements, asking for this, asking for that. 90 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:33,919 Speaker 1: I think it was a little bit of a facade 91 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: that John liked. He knew how to play every opportunity. 92 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: McAfee actually wrote a letter to The Times, which was published. 93 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: Thank you, Geraldine for the publicity for my new Mexico auction. 94 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: You've done a good job. I spoke to the reporter 95 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: Geraldine Fabrican on the phone when I told her about 96 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 1: Jim Gold's suggestion that McAfee miss led her so she 97 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 1: could report that he had lost nearly all his money 98 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: to ward off lawsuits. She said she didn't know he 99 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,280 Speaker 1: was being sued at the time. You're listening to Foundering. 100 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Jamie Tarabay. In the previous episode, we 101 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: discussed John McAfee's invention of an anti virus software that 102 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: dominated the computer market and made a name for him 103 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 1: in the process, and two years later John sold most 104 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: of his shares and walked away with reportedly a hundred 105 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 1: million dollars in hand. He would spend the next two 106 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,480 Speaker 1: decades largely out of the public eye, and his vast 107 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: riches make him even more unaccountable for his behavior than 108 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: he was in his early life. McAfee builds massive estates 109 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 1: in remote, far flung places throughout the country. He's physically isolated, 110 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 1: he's insulated by his money, and he begins to embrace 111 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: increasingly indulgent, reckless rule breaking that eventually costs lives. We'll 112 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: tell you more about McAfee's descent into lawlessness after this 113 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 1: quick break. John McAfee had exhibited impulsive behavior throughout his 114 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: adult life, but he was emboldened by his increasing wealth 115 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 1: and position to push boundaries even further. When we were 116 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: interviewing computer programmers who knew McAfee in the nineteen eighties. 117 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: They talked about his early interest in computer viruses, but 118 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: several of them also wanted to highlight that there was 119 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: another thing he was just as obsessed with at the 120 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: same time. You know, probably the biggest thing was when 121 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: he wanted me to start putting together sex parties. But 122 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: one day out of the blue he called up. I 123 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: still remember this day. My wife said, Hey, you know 124 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 1: this guy John McAfee's on the phone that Roger Grimes. 125 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: Roger was one of the analysts helping John McAfee crack 126 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: computer viruses. The two of them had a professional relationship. 127 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 1: McAfee would send Roger a virus. Roger would disassemble the virus, 128 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: analyze it, write a report, and send that back to John. 129 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: Roger said he looked up to McAfee. He was only 130 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: twenty two years old and starting out in the industry, 131 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: and he was so excited to get the call. He 132 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: was hoping for a permanent job in McAfee's company, but 133 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: he never expected to be asked to help with this, 134 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: And so John was calling to tell me that he 135 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: had this great idea and that he wanted he wanted 136 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: to get people tested for AIDS and you'd get like 137 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: a driver's license looking thing that would talk about whether 138 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 1: or not you had AIDS or not. And if you 139 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: didn't have AIDS you could go to these club parties 140 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: he put together that were really swinger sex parties, and 141 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: he said, Hey, I'm starting one in California. I would 142 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: like you to start one in New York City. Roger 143 00:08:57,280 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: says this was in nineteen eighty eight or eighty nine. 144 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: There was an epidemic of AIDS at the time. Up 145 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: to ninety percent of people who contracted the disease died. 146 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: Scientists were trying to understand how it was transmitted or 147 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: how it affected people, and fear of AIDS was rampant. 148 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: I remember as soon as he said the idea to 149 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 1: me that I was kind of put off. I'm like, 150 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: is it even legal? And you know, if you get 151 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: a test that you don't have AIDS, you know, does 152 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: that mean you don't have AIDS when you're at the 153 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: party later on? And how? And I don't think the 154 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: tests were very accurate at the time, and I just 155 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: you know, it was just seemed kind of slimy, weird. 156 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: So as he was super excited, he was like, Okay, 157 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 1: I need you to follow up on this. I just 158 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: completely blew it off. Roger says McAfee was single minded 159 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 1: about this and chased him relentlessly. I mean for months, 160 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,959 Speaker 1: he is just calling me on stop about how far 161 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 1: along I'm getting in, you know, trying to open these 162 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 1: swinger sex club things, and I'm doing nothing. So I'm 163 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 1: ghosting him. And eventually, you know, remember, you know, one 164 00:09:57,960 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: time he had called, my wife had picked up the 165 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: phone and she it is John McAfee, and I'm like, 166 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 1: I don't want to talk to him. Just don't you know, 167 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 1: I don't want to talk to him. Like so it 168 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: definitely turned and from that, you know, he stopped sending 169 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: me work, stopped talking me. In the years since, McAfee 170 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 1: bragged on social media about his sexual conquests, about having 171 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: multiple partners, and about seeing sex workers. But Roger says 172 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,680 Speaker 1: that this business idea was off putting an offensive to 173 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: many of the people who knew about it. I think 174 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 1: John McAfee and his sexual proclivities are fairly well known, 175 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 1: and I think that he just saw this. He was 176 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 1: being an entrepreneur and he saw a need and he 177 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: was putting together a new business, and you know, but 178 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 1: every single person, at least that I know, when we 179 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: talked about it. It was just kind of like wiged Ow. 180 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: If starting a swinger sex club is one sign of 181 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: how McAfee defied social norms, another was his relationship with women. 182 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 1: To tell that story, we have to go back in 183 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: time to the mid seventies. When John McAfee was working 184 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: as a programmer. His employer reassigned him from California to Cincinnati, Ohio, 185 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 1: where he met a teenage girl named Barbara dep Key, 186 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:16,319 Speaker 1: and both of us took the bus downtown, and so 187 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: I met him on the bus and he just came 188 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: up to me and asked me out. I guess I 189 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: don't remember exactly, but I was young, you know, I 190 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 1: was like seventeen or eighteen. Barbara dated John from nineteen 191 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,440 Speaker 1: seventy four to seventy seven. She said he was around 192 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 1: thirty years old when they got together, fresh over his 193 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: breakup from his first wife. Friend. Yeah, he was eleven 194 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: years older, and so I did go to his house 195 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: with him. You know, we went out, and we actually 196 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: got on very well right away, and I ended up 197 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: moving in with him. She remembers what drew her to him. 198 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: He had beautiful green eyes, and he had this voice 199 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:06,199 Speaker 1: that was just mesmerizing, and he was very handsome. Women 200 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: just felt I don't know what it was, some magnetism 201 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: that he had. It was just very strange. They soon 202 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: began traveling together. They went to Mexico, Belize, and then 203 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: McAfee got a job with Siemens in Germany and she 204 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: went with him. She said she posed as his wife, 205 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: although they weren't married at the time. They had a calm, 206 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: domestic life with one constant, nagging interruption. It was so normal, 207 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: you know. My life with him was just so normal. 208 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: And we had lunch, and you know, I would make 209 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: dinner for him. He went to work and then he 210 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: would come home. But the whole time he has gone 211 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: at work, I would worry, like, okay, he was he 212 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,079 Speaker 1: fucking down, you know? Or it is he affecting a 213 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 1: secretary or whatever. This was something that Barbara slipped into 214 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 1: conversation so casually. I was shocked. She said that John 215 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 1: was constantly cheating on her. He was always in teresting 216 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: other women. So I never trusted him ever. And so 217 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 1: like if we'd go to a restaurant, he could be 218 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,719 Speaker 1: in the back hall with the waitress fucking her in 219 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,319 Speaker 1: the bathroom. He's awful. He was awful about that kind 220 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 1: of stuff. But I wasn't willing to give up the 221 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 1: other thing for that at that point. And I you know, 222 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: we would talk about it, but he would, I believe, Yeah, 223 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 1: that was our worst that was the worst thing. He 224 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: really would cheat on me all the time. I couldn't 225 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: even have a friend. Actually, if I had a friend, 226 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: he would be in bed with her the next day. 227 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: It's amazing how when we were together that women would 228 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: just like fallen his spell and sleep with him or 229 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: go away with him or you know. It was just amazing. 230 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: This experience changed Barbara. It made her neurotic, suspicious. Well, 231 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 1: he tried to hide it, but I would spy on him, 232 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: Like he'd leave the house with his underwear on right 233 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 1: and come back with him on backwards or inside out, 234 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 1: or the bed was messed up if I was gone 235 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:06,559 Speaker 1: or i'd come home, I'd find things that I knew, 236 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 1: you know, underwear and whatever. Eventually, she said she was 237 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: fed up with the cheating and she broke up with McAfee. 238 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 1: When I finally left him, I was like so upset 239 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: about the whole thing, and torn up. You would not 240 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: believe how much I'd loved him. I actually I really 241 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: really loved John a lot, and I still do because 242 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: he wasn't anything to me, like he wasn't anybody else. 243 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: Decades later, in conversation, Boba still gets emotional when she 244 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: talks about John. She said their relationship was singular, and 245 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: she also stressed how young she was and how inexperienced 246 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: she was when she first met him. I was young 247 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: and sweet and innocent, and he treat me. He just 248 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: treat me like a little princess. I can't. He was 249 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 1: my protector, He was my best friend. He was my lover. 250 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: John's first wife, Fran, was also eighteen when she met him. 251 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: She also mentioned their age difference and her own relative inexperience. 252 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: And he just slowly like a spider throwing a web 253 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: around its prey. My family never liked him, and it's 254 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: because they could see. They could sense something that I 255 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: could not see at my age, and I was I 256 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: was the definition of naiblity. It struck me that, like Barbara, 257 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: Fran believes that her relationship with McAfee was unique, that 258 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 1: though he went on to be with many other women, 259 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 1: there was something about their particular love that was irreplaceable. 260 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 1: There are things about John Bett you know, special to me. 261 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: For example, it's like I always knew he loved me. 262 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: He used to tell me, you're the thing that grounds me. 263 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: There's nobody else in my life that grounds me. Even now, 264 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: decades later, in some ways, he's still a good person 265 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: in their eyes. Yet in conversation with us, both Fran 266 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: and Barbara said that they felt controlled and manipulated by John. 267 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: I think this goes back to how young and impressionable 268 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: they were when they were his partners. We're highlighting mac 269 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: of his treatment of women because it speaks to from 270 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 1: very early on in his life, his sense of entitlement, 271 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: of doing whatever he wanted, with whoever he wanted, with 272 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: little to no regard for the consequences or the feelings 273 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 1: of others. He displayed the sort of behavior that would 274 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: be considered toxic, and yet he was revered even by 275 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 1: the very women he was cheating on. As we've heard 276 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 1: constantly in our reporting, when people think you're a genius, 277 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 1: you can get away with anything. We'll be right back. 278 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety four, John McAfee made a call to 279 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 1: a tax consultant my name is David les Bronze. I 280 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: am a Canadian who deals with immigration, tax, family law 281 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: solutions for wealthy individuals and families globally, including Americans who 282 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: are looking to give themselves some options with regards to 283 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:37,200 Speaker 1: international movement and potentially leaving permanently the US tax system. 284 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 1: David Lesperance said John mccofee contacted him after seeing an 285 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 1: article in Forbes magazine about super rich Americans abandoning their 286 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: citizenship to avoid paying US taxes. So he said, I 287 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:55,919 Speaker 1: want to pay as little tax as possible. Said, okay, 288 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: but I want to have a certain type of lifestyle. 289 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 1: So you know, clients, I occasionally will get a client 290 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:07,120 Speaker 1: to say, well, you know, move me somewhere where there's 291 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: no tax and no divorce courts or no no litigation warriors. 292 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: I said, no problem, will moving to a rock in 293 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: the middle of the ocean. But you know, pack a 294 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 1: gun because within six months, either you're going to want 295 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: to kill yourself or your family is going to want 296 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 1: to kill you, like oh no, no, no, I want 297 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,919 Speaker 1: you know this lifestyle, etc. Etc. So it's coming up 298 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 1: with a plan that is actually livable. It was striking 299 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: to me that as soon as nineteen ninety four, McAfee 300 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 1: was already laying the groundwork to leave the US for good, 301 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: even at a time when things were going well for him. 302 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 1: In fact, free of his first company, he set about 303 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: launching more businesses. He created an instant messaging platform that 304 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: looked a lot like AOL Instant Messenger. Actually, he lifted 305 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,400 Speaker 1: so many features that AOL sued his company for copying 306 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,639 Speaker 1: one chronic component, the Buddy List. This week on the 307 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 1: Computer Chronicles video to lephony on the Internet, we'll show 308 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 1: you the hardest thing in online chat. Pow Wow. Yes, 309 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: it was called pow Wow, made by McAfee's company, Tribal Voice. 310 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 1: Here it is featured on the PBS show Computer Chronicles 311 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety nine. Million free download, free download. This 312 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,199 Speaker 1: is sort of the text version of powell that's correct. 313 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: On the left hand side, here you see what we'll 314 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,160 Speaker 1: call a traditional chat, AOL type chat room where people 315 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: are talking to the keyboard. Pow Wow was panned by critics. 316 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:37,159 Speaker 1: The interface was clunky and unattractive, Yet McAfee reportedly managed 317 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 1: to sell the company for seventeen million dollars. Those days, 318 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 1: he was investing money in small tech firms and more property. 319 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,919 Speaker 1: He bought a house in Santa Cruz. He purchased several 320 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 1: acres on Molokai Island in Hawaii, homebase for most of 321 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:56,160 Speaker 1: those early years. After he left McAfee and associates was Colorado. 322 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 1: McAfee bought two hundred and eighty acres. He turned the 323 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: estate into a yoga retreat, reportedly pouring over twenty million 324 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 1: dollars into it. It was a beautiful, beautiful property. It 325 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: was in the shadow of Pike's Peak. It was at 326 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:13,919 Speaker 1: nine thousand feet high altitude. You drove up to the 327 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 1: property and he had his main home. It was a 328 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 1: little lake, and right in the edge of it was 329 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: a wood burning sauna that was quite large, which I 330 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: had been in. And then there was a like a barn, 331 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 1: a couple of guest houses, and a beautiful yoga studio. 332 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: Robbie Raman is an executive coach who lives in Minneapolis. 333 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: In the early two thousands, he found ads from McAfee's 334 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: Colorado Yoga center and visited several times. He says people 335 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: could come and go. That was very open the times 336 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:48,679 Speaker 1: I was there, I mean people were just there, some 337 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: other sort of yogis or students who were studying or caretakers, 338 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 1: yoga teachers just being there cooking meals and seemed to 339 00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: be you can just sort of go wherever you wanted. 340 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 1: As far as Rabie could tell, the entire operation was 341 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: funded personally by John McAfee. I never paid for any 342 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,160 Speaker 1: of my trips out there. For the initial yoga workshop, 343 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 1: I paid, but I just paid my studio. I never 344 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 1: paid John anything, and then I made two other trips 345 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: out to his property. I never paid. I made a 346 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 1: donation to the teachers who supported me. They never asked 347 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 1: for a dime, and I just paid as an offering. 348 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: I just assumed he had had a career and made 349 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: some money, and it was looking to deepen his understanding 350 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: and share what he knew. McAfee taught yoga and meditation. 351 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: When Rabbie went to the yoga retreat for the first 352 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,159 Speaker 1: time in two thousand and three, he was personally instructed 353 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,440 Speaker 1: by McAfee. He would join us for breakfast and swing by, 354 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: and I got to do with the breathing classes that 355 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:51,160 Speaker 1: he would lead, and I actually learned med meditation technique 356 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: from him. Nothing struck me as weird or odd or 357 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,639 Speaker 1: so fit into other practices I had but he just 358 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:02,199 Speaker 1: had a very specific approach for me, given where I 359 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 1: was in that moment. I never got the sense he 360 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 1: was any kind of enlightened being or anything like that. 361 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: I was never I have never looked at human beings 362 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: in that way. John went on to put out several 363 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: books about yoga that list him as the author. Robbie 364 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 1: said he had a few copies, which again he never 365 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: paid for. He ended up giving them away to friends. 366 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: Two people who were close to McAfee told us he 367 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: didn't write these books. Here's Barbara again. He was a 368 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: bullshitter and he made up things, and people just fell 369 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:38,159 Speaker 1: for because he was like, you know, mesmerizing, and the 370 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: way he talked and looked at you. I think people 371 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,640 Speaker 1: just wished him. And so then it turned out there 372 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,440 Speaker 1: he had these books that he wrote. He didn't even 373 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: write them. They were all like, you know, yoga books 374 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 1: and spiritual things. And I had one of them signed 375 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 1: by him. I even called him on that one time. 376 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 1: I said, that is such bullshit, John, that is not 377 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,360 Speaker 1: your words. The books are still for sale on Amazon 378 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 1: and some of the reviews of Pretty Brutal. One reviewer wrote, wow, 379 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: he just copied and pasted this whole book from other 380 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: yoga books. McAfee would later dismiss the books as garbage 381 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,119 Speaker 1: and said he was embarrassed by them. Over the course 382 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:24,199 Speaker 1: of these years in relative isolation, McAfee's eccentricities began to deepen. 383 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 1: With the yoga retreat, he set himself up as a 384 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 1: spiritual leader, as a guru, even though his qualifications were 385 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 1: sketchy at best, and he succeeded in recruiting people. He 386 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 1: drew so many to join him in the mountaintop retreat 387 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 1: where they lived under his generosity. It didn't matter who 388 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,440 Speaker 1: they were or why they were there. There were always 389 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:50,120 Speaker 1: other people there and hanging around, and he allowed people 390 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: to stay there and just very generous in that respect. 391 00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 1: I would characterize it as strays. There were strays all 392 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: the time. That's Joy Athanasiu, an attorney who represents McAfee's daughter. 393 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:12,120 Speaker 1: Joy is also McAfee's daughter's childhood friend. She first met 394 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,959 Speaker 1: John McAfee when she was still a teenager, and she 395 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 1: remembers visiting the Colorado property. I think that John had 396 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 1: some you know, he had some narcissistic qualities quite frankly, 397 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,919 Speaker 1: and I always had like an entourage around him. And 398 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: people really elevated to him to this cult like status. 399 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,680 Speaker 1: The Colorado used was significant because they were the beginning 400 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 1: of a pattern. This was the first time John McAfee 401 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: would create his own world where he made the rules. 402 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 1: He began to see what his money could buy, his 403 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 1: own mountaintop kingdom. He had a desire to go to 404 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,400 Speaker 1: out of the way places where his charisma and personality 405 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,680 Speaker 1: could dominate. As far as we can tell, Woodland Park, Colorado, 406 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 1: is the only place with its formula didn't end in tragedy. 407 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. In two thousand and six, McAfee 408 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,400 Speaker 1: got bored doing yoga and he picks up a new 409 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: hobby he called aerotrekking. Here's Javier Prato, a videographer who 410 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 1: worked with McAfee. No. Aerotreking is like it's a mix 411 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:29,400 Speaker 1: of a motorcycle and a hang layer. There's speed there 412 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:33,160 Speaker 1: so you can because there's an engine in the back, adrenaline, 413 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: you know it. He's like a sport. Aerotreking on the 414 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: face of it looks almost absurdly dangerous. It's the art 415 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: of flying an ultralight aircraft really low to the ground. 416 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: The planes they use for aerotreking have an engine run 417 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,880 Speaker 1: on fuel and often have fabric wings, and there's no cockpit. 418 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:56,439 Speaker 1: You're entirely exposed. The aircraft are small, light and nimble, 419 00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: so you can skim along canyon walls, the mountain side 420 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: and the tops of trees. McAfee wanted Javier to make 421 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 1: a series of ads, and he flew Javier out to 422 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:10,119 Speaker 1: New Mexico to see error trekking up close. On his 423 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 1: way there, aboard McAfee's private plane, Javier had a conversation 424 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,199 Speaker 1: with the pilot. The pilot confirmed to me when I 425 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: was flying there, like this year, you know he's in 426 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,400 Speaker 1: terror treking, you know, last year maybe getting you know boats, 427 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: you know, so who knows what's going to be next. 428 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: So he used to get bored too easily. There are 429 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: a number of videos online featuring the sky Gypsies. This 430 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 1: was the club that McAfee formed with his friends to 431 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: fly these aircraft. These are amateur videos, not shot by Javier. 432 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 1: In one, a young woman is landing the ultra light 433 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:49,159 Speaker 1: and steering toward a hangar. She's wearing a helmet, she 434 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,879 Speaker 1: has a seatbelt strapped around her waist. There's no safety 435 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:57,159 Speaker 1: harness and there's no parachute. At her back is a 436 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 1: gallon of very flammable fuel. You can see the liquid 437 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:06,919 Speaker 1: slashing around, but she's pulling in in one piece and 438 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:20,680 Speaker 1: she's ecstatic. All right, Goldie, I love life, I love 439 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: me alive. Welcome to Wow. Scream like a fucking wait 440 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 1: a day. Oh, I didn't want to come down. This 441 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,360 Speaker 1: was filmed on macafee's property in Rodeo, New Mexico. The 442 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 1: site that the auctioneer, Jim Gold said was kind of scary. 443 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: Guns everywhere, Border patrol agents nearby. Anyway, This was a 444 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty seven acre spread. McAfee spent about 445 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,360 Speaker 1: eleven million dollars building a complex for him, Andy's friends 446 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 1: to fly ultralight aircraft. Amcafee created a business called Southwest 447 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 1: Air Trekking Academy, and sky Gypsy's released ads enticing people 448 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,639 Speaker 1: to come out and go for a ride. He built 449 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 1: a general store and a movie theater and a cafe, 450 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,199 Speaker 1: and bought vintage cars for guests to check out. For 451 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 1: a time, it seemed like a fantastical desert oasis for 452 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,679 Speaker 1: McAfee and his fellow adrenaline junkies. But then one morning 453 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 1: in November two thousand and six, two people went for 454 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: a ride in one of the aircraft. They crashed into 455 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: a canyon and died. One of those killed was McAfee's nephew, 456 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,440 Speaker 1: Joel Beato, who was working as an instructor at the academy. 457 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 1: Then I hear I get the call that one of 458 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: the instructors they got killed in an accident. After that 459 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 1: we basically lost that he was. He was very depressed 460 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 1: and shocked about what happened. Joel Beato was twenty two 461 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 1: years old. The other person flying with Joel was Robert Gilton, 462 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: a retired pipe fitter from New Hampshire. Here's Gilson's family lawyer, 463 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: Frank Fleming. He read about error Trekking in a magazine, 464 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 1: responded to the article by getting in touch with McAfee's 465 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: school and signed up and went out and took a 466 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 1: took a ride. I think he took one or two 467 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:29,479 Speaker 1: rides before the fatal crash, but on the third or 468 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 1: fourth hop with mister Boteaux, they flew into the mountain. 469 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: Frank is an aviation lawyer for decades. He has represented 470 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 1: families in plane crashes, helicopter crashes and military crashes. It's 471 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 1: clearly a consequence of an undertrained and ill equipped pilot 472 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: who had no business flying with passengers or students. The pilot, 473 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 1: Joel but Toe, obviously flew into a box canyon where 474 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 1: he was surrounded on several sides by terrain, and then 475 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: he tried to turn and didn't allow enough room for 476 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 1: the aircraft to complete the turn and flew into the 477 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: side of a mountain. And that's an unforgiving situation. I mean, 478 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: most pilots don't want to go into box canyons under 479 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: any circumstances. But that's the feeling that they're trying to generate. 480 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 1: We got a copy of the police report from the 481 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: Coaches County Sheriff's Department in Arizona. It says that a 482 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 1: small plane crashed in the place called Starvation Canyon. Fire 483 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: enveloped the aircraft, leaving only the metal framework and engine behind. 484 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 1: One body was burned beyond recognition. A second was thrown 485 00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 1: over one hundred feet away. Joel Beto's parents provide aided 486 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: his dental records to help identify the remains, and the 487 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: sheriff's report contained one other alarming detail that the pilot 488 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 1: had been in a previous accident just four months prior 489 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 1: to the fatal crash. In that incident, the engine died 490 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 1: on his ultralight aircraft midflight, and he tried to do 491 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 1: an emergency landing in the best place he could find. 492 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: The plane hit several rocks and flipped over. The ultralight 493 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: was totaled, and Joel sustained injuries to his left arm. 494 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 1: He told police that the plane belonged to his uncle, 495 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 1: John McAfee. Frank Fleming said that once the crash was reconstructed, 496 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 1: they filed a claim against McAfee, Southwest Aerotrekking Academy, and 497 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 1: Joel Beato's father, John Beato. The lawsuit was filed in 498 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight. Just one year later, McAfee was 499 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: selling off his properties to leave for Belize, where he 500 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: declared that he would be out of the court's reach. 501 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 1: He took off, leaving behind the grieving families, including his 502 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: ex wife's relatives. For years, McAfee had been living by 503 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 1: his own rules, defying in convention, but now he was 504 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 1: disregarding court orders. He ignored requests to produce financial documents. 505 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 1: He left to build yet another new life, this time 506 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 1: on the shores of the Caribbean. While thumbing his nose 507 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 1: at the American justice system. We will talk about Belize 508 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: a lot in a different episode. We know that in 509 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 1: three short years after moving there, McAfee would be forced 510 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 1: to come back home, and during this time Frank Fleming 511 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: kept pushing on the wrongful death lawsuit, and he was 512 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 1: also trying to compel McAfee to testify. He eventually succeeded. 513 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 1: When McAfee returned to the US, he was deposed. Here's Fleming. 514 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 1: I did not think he was a good witness. I 515 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: did not think he was credible. He very arrogant and 516 00:32:54,840 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: contemptuous of the process. Fleming says he also didn't look 517 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 1: too good. I remember him as a chain smoker. He 518 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 1: was not a very healthy person. He coughed regularly, I 519 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 1: mean incessantly. He was very high strung. I might have 520 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 1: used the term uptight in my personal experience. I would 521 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 1: have suspected that he was on some kind of medication. 522 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 1: Fleming said. McAfee tried to blame the accident on the 523 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 1: passenger who died, Robert Gilson. He claimed Gilson shifted his 524 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,719 Speaker 1: weight in the aircraft, making it impossible for the pilot 525 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 1: to maintain control. Also, Gilson had had heart problems months 526 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 1: before he turned up in New Mexico, and McAfee said 527 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 1: tried to suggest that he'd had a heart attack and 528 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 1: that caused the crash, But Fleming says there's no evidence 529 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 1: of McAfee's claims. McAfee wasn't just antagonistic towards the people 530 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 1: suing him. He made things difficult for his own lawyers too. 531 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: He fired at least one of them. I contacted one 532 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 1: of McAfee's lawyers, Ralph Ellenwood, and asked him several times 533 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 1: for an interview. He agreed at first, and then emailed 534 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 1: me later to say that he changed his mind that 535 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 1: talking to me quote would be an ethical minefield. Several 536 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,719 Speaker 1: people who were named as defendant in the trial, including 537 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 1: John Beeto, the pilot's father, did not respond to our 538 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:31,400 Speaker 1: requests for interviews. Fleming said McAfee was to post several 539 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:35,879 Speaker 1: times because he kept refusing to produce financial documents. When 540 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 1: the judge forced McAfee to turn over the documents, they 541 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 1: showed that McAfee paid for the aircraft, for the flight complex, 542 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 1: for pretty much everything there. McAfee's financial documents also showed 543 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 1: where some of his money was kept. Here's Fleming, I 544 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 1: should also point out that he had some sort of 545 00:34:53,680 --> 00:35:00,120 Speaker 1: a trust set up organized in the Cook Islands. It 546 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 1: tells you a lot about the purpose of the trust. 547 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 1: The Cook Islands in the Pacific are outside of US jurisdiction. 548 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,600 Speaker 1: They serve as a notorious tax haven for the wealthy. 549 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 1: They can also be used by Americans who want to 550 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 1: protect their assets from lawsuits. We scoured SEC filings and 551 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,479 Speaker 1: court documents to see what we could find out about 552 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 1: McAfee's trust. It was originally set up in John and 553 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 1: his ex wife, Judy's name in nineteen ninety three. That year, 554 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,800 Speaker 1: he transferred at least half of his shares in McAfee's 555 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 1: associates to the trust. Judy took control of it after 556 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 1: they divorced in two thousand and six, and by that 557 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,879 Speaker 1: point its assets were worth about seven million dollars, Which 558 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 1: brings me to the kicker in the error Trekking lawsuit. 559 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 1: McAfee could have avoided a lot of this trouble because 560 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 1: the family of the crash victim, Robert Gilson, began proceedings 561 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 1: by offering to settle without trial. If McAfee agreed to 562 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,799 Speaker 1: pay half a million dollars, that would make it all 563 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 1: go away. McAfee turned it down. Instead, he spent years 564 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 1: ignoring court orders, dodging people trying to serve him papers 565 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,880 Speaker 1: at tech conferences, and ultimately being forced into a lengthy, 566 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:15,759 Speaker 1: invasive lawsuit. McAfee could have prevented that by accepting the offer. Now, 567 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 1: let me say, at the end of the day, if 568 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:22,520 Speaker 1: you will, he succeeded because he hasn't paid the judgment. 569 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,360 Speaker 1: When the judgment came down, the court ruled that McAfee, 570 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:30,399 Speaker 1: Southwest Aerotrekking Academy, and the Beto estate had to pay 571 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 1: over two million dollars in damages, penalties and interest. Well, 572 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 1: it's higher than that now because it continues to earn interests. 573 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,720 Speaker 1: But he has not paid the judgment. That's correct, After 574 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 1: all that McAfee died without paying. Now there may be 575 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,239 Speaker 1: something Fleming can do after McAfee's estate lawyers go through 576 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 1: what remains of his assets, But he acknowledges that even 577 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 1: that day will be a long time coming. It is 578 00:36:55,200 --> 00:37:00,280 Speaker 1: a testament to McAfee's determination to avoid accountability. John Coffee 579 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,280 Speaker 1: spent the first fifteen years after he left his company 580 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:07,440 Speaker 1: largely out of the public eye, under the cloak of obscurity. 581 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,359 Speaker 1: He descended further and further into lawlessness. He went from 582 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:15,960 Speaker 1: breaking social conventions to outright defying the legal system. He 583 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 1: takes off for Belize, a tropical paradise where it looked 584 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:23,440 Speaker 1: like McAfee could yet again start over on his own terms. 585 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,919 Speaker 1: But soon things there would get even darker, and John 586 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 1: mccafee would have more than one death blamed on him. 587 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 1: That's next time on Foundering, The John mccafee Story. Foundering 588 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 1: is hosted by me Jamie Tarabay. Sean Wen is our 589 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 1: executive producer, Matthew Bramner, Andrew's Malin, Eileena Pang and Joe 590 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:59,799 Speaker 1: Williams contributed reporting to this episode special thanks to Press 591 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 1: on the Prakash. Molly Nugent is our associate producer. Sharif 592 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 1: Yusef is our audio engineer, Mark Million and Vandermay, Andy 593 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,839 Speaker 1: Martin and Molly Shutz are our story editors. Be sure 594 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,440 Speaker 1: to subscribe and if you like our show, leave a review. 595 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 1: Most importantly, tell your friends see you next time.