Speaker 1: This is Lee Habib and this is our American Stories
Speaker 1: and we tell stories about everything here on this show,
Speaker 1: from the arts to sports, and from business to history
Speaker 1: and everything in between, including your story. Senem Ouramerican Stories
Speaker 1: dot Com. There's some of our favorites. And this next
Speaker 1: story is brought to us by a listener Mike Chapman,
Speaker 1: who listens to us on ten forty who out of
Speaker 1: Des Moines, Iowa. Abraham Lincoln is one of the greatest
Speaker 1: leaders in US history, but prior to his being elected
Speaker 1: the sixteenth President of the United States, he used his
Speaker 1: skills as a wrestler to win approval from the masses.
Speaker 1: Mike Chapman has been writing about and researching wrestling for
Speaker 1: many years. He is also the author of The Sport
Speaker 1: of Lincoln. Here is Mike Chapman to share this turning
Speaker 1: point story in Abraham Lincoln's life.
Speaker 2: Aside from my passion for wrestling, I have long been
Speaker 2: intrigued by the history of US presidents. That really began
Speaker 2: to blossom when I was executive editor of the daily
Speaker 2: newspaper in Dixon, Illinois, which is the hometown of Ronald Reagan.
Speaker 2: I was the editor there from nineteen eighty nine to
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety eight. During that ten year period, I discovered
Speaker 2: that Abe Lincoln had actually served in the very same
Speaker 2: location that is Dixon today. Lincoln served there during the
Speaker 2: Blackhawk War of eighteen thirty two, and that fact really
Speaker 2: inspired me to learn more about Lincoln as a young man,
Speaker 2: which in turn led me to the little village of
Speaker 2: New Salem, Illinois. It is located about two hundred miles
Speaker 2: south of Dixon and about twenty miles northwest of Springfield, Illinois.
Speaker 2: And what a wonderful place that is for any history
Speaker 2: buff Abraham Lincoln was born on February sixth, eighteen nine
Speaker 2: and raised in Kentucky, but when he was seven, the
Speaker 2: Lincoln family moved to Indiana. He grew into a strapping
Speaker 2: young man, nearly six foot four inches tall and weighing
Speaker 2: about one hundred and eighty pounds. He first strolled into
Speaker 2: New Salem in eighteen thirty one as a twenty two
Speaker 2: year old looking for a new start in life, and
Speaker 2: soon he became engaged in an event that was destined
Speaker 2: to play a very important role in his career. It
Speaker 2: was called scuffling or grappling, and in modern terms it
Speaker 2: is called wrestling. But first a little background. Wrestling is
Speaker 2: often called mankind's oldest sport, as it is a subject
Speaker 2: in some of the oldest pieces of literature known to exist.
Speaker 2: In the Epic of Gilgamesh, composed in ancient Samaar, which
Speaker 2: today is now known as a Rock nearly four thousand
Speaker 2: years ago, a wrestling contest between Gilgamesh, the king of
Speaker 2: the large city of Uruk, and a forest giant named
Speaker 2: Incadu is an important feature of the saga in the Bible.
Speaker 2: As described in Genesis, the Hebrew patriarch Jacob wrestles with
Speaker 2: the Angel of the Lord. After a struggle that lasted
Speaker 2: all through the night, the angel gave Jacob a new name, Israel,
Speaker 2: which loosely translated means contested with God.
Speaker 3: Some of the greatest figures in.
Speaker 2: Ancient Greece, such as theseus Hercules and Achilles, the most
Speaker 2: celebrated hero in the Trojan War epic known as the Iliad,
Speaker 2: were wrestlers, and there are drawings of wrestlers inside some
Speaker 2: of the pyramids in Egypt. Wrestling came to the New
Speaker 2: World with the first colonists back in the late sixteen
Speaker 2: hundreds that flourished along the Eastern seaboard and moved west
Speaker 2: with the men who carved homes out of the wilderness,
Speaker 2: and it was popular both as a test of manhood
Speaker 2: and as a form of entertainment in small villages like
Speaker 2: New Salem. It also attracted bedding, which made it even
Speaker 2: more popular. Today, New Salem is a beautiful state park
Speaker 2: with over sixth one hundred and fifty thousand visitors a year.
Speaker 2: It is possible to walk through the main gate and
Speaker 2: stroll down the same path that a twenty two year
Speaker 2: old Abe Lincoln traversed in eighteen thirty one. The village
Speaker 2: was founded in eighteen twenty eight, and Lincoln lived there
Speaker 2: for about six years, serving as a surveyor, postmaster, stove operator,
Speaker 2: and rail splitter. It was here that Lincoln got his
Speaker 2: first taste of politics when he was elected to the
Speaker 2: Illinois General Assembly, and it was also here, in eighteen
Speaker 2: thirty one that the Lincoln legend first began to bloom
Speaker 2: thanks to wrestling. Lincoln came to New Salem because he
Speaker 2: had received an offer from a man named Denton Offit
Speaker 2: to work in his little store situated on a bluff
Speaker 2: near the Sangamon River. They had met some time earlier
Speaker 2: when Lincoln had worked for Offitt on his flatboat taking
Speaker 2: goods down the Mississippi River to sell in New Orleans.
Speaker 2: Off It took a liking to Lincoln and told him
Speaker 2: that he could work for him in New Salem if
Speaker 2: he ever decided to venture over that way. So now,
Speaker 2: when Lincoln arrived, off It was in competition with another
Speaker 2: store just forty feet from his. It was run by
Speaker 2: a man by the name of William Clary. In the
Speaker 2: summer of eighteen thirty one, Clary was selling liquor from
Speaker 2: his store and doing very well. He charged twelve cents
Speaker 2: for a drink of brandy, gin or whiskey, and twice
Speaker 2: that for his best wine.
Speaker 3: He developed a.
Speaker 2: Good and steady business of local customers and visitors from
Speaker 2: off the river. When river travelers came up the bluff
Speaker 2: for a break in their journeys, they were looking for
Speaker 2: a place to drink a.
Speaker 3: Bit and swap tails.
Speaker 2: So Offit chose to build his store very close to Clary's,
Speaker 2: and the two men competed for business. Claire's store was
Speaker 2: at the top of the bluff, about forty feet in front.
Speaker 3: Of office store.
Speaker 2: Travelers had to make a choice between them as to
Speaker 2: which was the best place to spend their small amount
Speaker 2: of money. Lincoln had him. He pressed off it with
Speaker 2: his wiry strength. Offatt had seen Abe pick up large
Speaker 2: barrels of whiskey and other bulky items and carry them
Speaker 2: off with these. At six feet four and four inches
Speaker 2: of height and carrying close to one hundred and eighty
Speaker 2: pounds of sinewy muscle, he was very large man for
Speaker 2: that time. Offitt was a man who liked to talk
Speaker 2: a lot. He is very proud of his new helper
Speaker 2: and boasted to William Clary that Abe was the strongest
Speaker 2: man he knew. But Clarrey knew a few strong men
Speaker 2: as well. They were men of a different temperament than
Speaker 2: Abe Lincoln loud and belligerent when the liquor took effect.
Speaker 2: Wrestling was the best way to determine what a man
Speaker 2: was made of. The bouts in the thick grass between
Speaker 2: Claire's Store an office store, or a regular occurrence in
Speaker 2: a true frontier style. The ringleader of the bunch was
Speaker 2: a rugged farmer from nearby Claire's Grove called Jack Armstrong.
Speaker 2: Shorter than Lincoln, Armstrong was much thicker and heavier. At
Speaker 2: age twenty seven, he was five years older than Abe.
Speaker 2: Little is known about Armstrong's wrestling expertise, other than the
Speaker 2: fact that he was considered the roughest of the gang
Speaker 2: of young men who resided at Clari's Grove and hung
Speaker 2: out at the Clary's Tavern.
Speaker 1: And when we continue more of Mike Chapman's story about
Speaker 1: Abe Lincoln here on Our American Stories, Lee Habib here
Speaker 1: and I'd like to encourage you to subscribe to Our
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Speaker 1: continue with our American Stories and Mike Chapman's story a
Speaker 1: listener about Abraham Lincoln's wrestling match that became the turning
Speaker 1: point in his life. Let's continue with Mike Chapman.
Speaker 2: Within a short amount of time from Lincoln's arrival, a
Speaker 2: match was brewing, and talk soon reached the point that
Speaker 2: if either man shied away, he would be branded a coward.
Speaker 2: Tired of Offitt's boasting, Armstrong eagerly accepted the challenge of
Speaker 2: wrestling Lincoln. Offatt offered to bet anyone ten dollars that
Speaker 2: Lincoln would win. Money, drinks, and various items were soon
Speaker 2: being waged all around the village. Finally, the two men,
Speaker 2: Lincoln and Armstrong, met on the grassy area between the
Speaker 2: stores to settle the talk. As many as one hundred
Speaker 2: men gathered to see the contest as it was undone
Speaker 2: doubtedly a major source of discussion in the little village
Speaker 2: and the surrounding area. While Abe had the advantage in
Speaker 2: height and leverage, Jack had the advantage and experience and attitude.
Speaker 2: He was undoubtedly a more seasoned grappler and fighter. According
Speaker 2: to all reports. Now, there were several types of wrestling
Speaker 2: that were engaged in on the frontier. One style was
Speaker 2: to where the two men agreed to grab a hold
Speaker 2: on each other and see who could throw who first.
Speaker 2: What it was was just a good old fashioned scuffle,
Speaker 2: with each man trying to throw the other to his
Speaker 2: back and holding there. It was just two men tugging
Speaker 2: and pulling each other in an effort to subdue the other.
Speaker 2: Yes foot stomping was a frequent tactic, as was hire
Speaker 2: pulling and thumbing of the face. In nineteen thirty nine,
Speaker 2: a popular movie called Abe Blincoln of Illinois was made
Speaker 2: from the poetry prize winning player the same name, written
Speaker 2: by Robert Sherwood. In this film version of the story, Lincoln,
Speaker 2: played superbly by Raymond Massey, tangles with Armstrong, played with
Speaker 2: gusto by Howard de Silva in a wild affair. It
Speaker 2: was a dramatic version thus certainly looked good on film.
Speaker 2: Many stories had the match ending with Lincoln on his
Speaker 2: feet looking down at the defeated Armstrong. The Claire's Grove boys,
Speaker 2: angry at seeing their best man beaten, advanced on Lincoln,
Speaker 2: shouting at him and raising their fists, and all out
Speaker 2: fight appeared imminent. Lincoln supposedly stood with his back against
Speaker 2: one of the two stores fist clintch and declared that
Speaker 2: he would take them all on one at a time
Speaker 2: if necessary. However, Armstrong came to Lincoln's side and told
Speaker 2: his pells that Lincoln had beaten him fairly and that
Speaker 2: he had proven that he was worthy of their respect. Boys.
Speaker 2: He Lincoln is the best fellow that ever broke into
Speaker 2: this settlement, said Armstrong, he shall be one of us.
Speaker 2: The Claire's Grove boys backed off, and Lincoln gained a
Speaker 2: new in the little village. He was known from then
Speaker 2: on as a man not to be trifled with, despite
Speaker 2: his infectious grin and considered good humor. The fact was
Speaker 2: it seemed that Lincoln could defend himself, and he gained
Speaker 2: immense stature due to his wrestling prowess, so the main
Speaker 2: thrust of the bout could be described like this. Lincoln
Speaker 2: didn't really want to wrestle Armstrong because he felt it
Speaker 2: was building up too much as a fight and not
Speaker 2: strictly a good natured contest, but when he saw how
Speaker 2: everyone's talking about the match and making such a big deal,
Speaker 2: he knew it was bound to take place eventually. It
Speaker 2: is estimated today that nearly fifteen thousand books had been
Speaker 2: written about Abraham Lincoln, more than any other figure in
Speaker 2: history with the exception of Jesus Christ, and many of
Speaker 2: these books talk about Lincoln's contest with Jack Armstrong and
Speaker 2: its impact on his career. The most thorough discussion of
Speaker 2: Lincoln's wrestling background comes in the book Honor's Voice That
Speaker 2: Transferred Me of Abraham Lincoln, written by Douglas L. Wilson
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety nine. The book offers an entire chapter
Speaker 2: nearly thirty two pages, devoted to Lincoln's wrestling prowess, appropriately
Speaker 2: entitled quote Wrestling with the Evidence.
Speaker 3: Here's the key part.
Speaker 2: Abraham Lincoln's election to the presidency and his eventual elevation
Speaker 2: to the pantheon of American heroes have transformed his wrestling
Speaker 2: match with Jack Armstrong from a rowdy initiation right in
Speaker 2: an obscure pioneer village into a notable historical event end quote.
Speaker 2: Wilson then quotes John T. Stewart, who knew Lincoln as
Speaker 2: well as anyone and brought him into his law firm
Speaker 2: in Springfield after Lincoln left New Salem.
Speaker 3: Quote.
Speaker 2: This was the turning point in Lincoln's life, Stuart claimed
Speaker 2: after the death of his longtime friend, talking about the
Speaker 2: wrestling match as a fitting in to the New Salem
Speaker 2: wrestling match story. Lincoln became friends with the Armstrong family
Speaker 2: and often visited the Little Cabin in the months after
Speaker 2: the match with Jack. Jack's wife, Hannah, even knitted some
Speaker 2: shirts for Abe, and Abe would babysit, sometimes rocking the
Speaker 2: cradle of their young baby. Lincoln left New Salem after
Speaker 2: six years and moved to Springfield, where he began his
Speaker 2: law career. Years later, he even defended Jack's son, Deaf Armstrong,
Speaker 2: in a famous legal case. Jack Armstrong didn't live long
Speaker 2: enough to see Lincoln win the presidency, dying in eighteen
Speaker 2: fifty four at the age of fifty. He is buried
Speaker 2: in an obscure out of the Way Frontiers cemetery a
Speaker 2: mile or two from New Salem. Unknown except for his
Speaker 2: grappling contest with a man who became the sixteenth President
Speaker 2: of the United States and arguably the most popular American ever,
Speaker 2: there are other brief references to Lincoln using his grappling
Speaker 2: skills after the Armstrong encounter. Some time later, while working
Speaker 2: in another tiny store in New Salem, a man insulted
Speaker 2: several women customers with profane language, and Lincoln asked him
Speaker 2: to stop. The man persisted and said no one could
Speaker 2: make him stop. Lincoln challenged him to step outside, flung
Speaker 2: into the ground, and stuffed weeds in his mouth until
Speaker 2: the man surrendered. In August of eighteen thirty four, while
Speaker 2: running for the state legislature, Lincoln found the opportunity to
Speaker 2: show his wrestling skills once again. During that time, he
Speaker 2: was running for office once again, and this time he
Speaker 2: was elected to the state legislature. Just as Lincoln was
Speaker 2: getting ready to speak, a fight broke out in the
Speaker 2: crowd and his friend was roughed up. Lincoln jumped off
Speaker 2: the platform, grabbed his friends assailant tossed him a few feet,
Speaker 2: then strode back to the platform and began his speech.
Speaker 2: And then there was also a report of Lincoln losing
Speaker 2: a grappling contest.
Speaker 3: It occurred during the Blackhawk.
Speaker 2: War years, sometime in the eighteen thirty one thirty three period,
Speaker 2: and took place in Beardstown, Illinois, a little village about
Speaker 2: fifty miles west of Dixon. The foe was a man
Speaker 2: named Lorenzo Doll Thompson, and many years later, in eighteen sixty,
Speaker 2: while running for the presidency, Lincoln himself talked about the
Speaker 2: struggle in an interview. Lincoln said up to that time
Speaker 2: he had never been thrown, and neither had Thompson.
Speaker 3: They squared off, grabbed.
Speaker 2: Hold of each other before a large group of soldiers,
Speaker 2: and struggled valiantly, but Lincoln said he was thrown twice
Speaker 2: declaring Thompson was strong enough to whip a grizzly bear
Speaker 2: and the best man he.
Speaker 3: Had ever grappled with.
Speaker 2: And then there's this fascinating tidbit from the Douglas Wilson
Speaker 2: book Honor's Voice. He adds that Abes' mother, Nancy Hanks,
Speaker 2: liked to wrestle, and quote, in a fair wrestle, she
Speaker 2: could throw most of the men who ever put her
Speaker 2: powers to the test. So let us conclude with this
Speaker 2: statement from Wilson's book quote. Legends, by their very nature,
Speaker 2: are not so much factual account as symbolic embodiments or
Speaker 2: expressions of what the facts represent. In any case, Abe
Speaker 2: Lincoln's wrestling prowess can best be interpreted as representing Lincoln
Speaker 2: as a strong, determined, and fearless fellow, ready to take
Speaker 2: on the task at hand and never shrinking from the
Speaker 2: ordeal itself. After all, that is what the man known
Speaker 2: as honest Abe would want from us, the peer, truth,
Speaker 2: the facts, and nothing else.
Speaker 3: Abe Lincoln was a wrestler.
Speaker 1: And you've been listening to Mike Chapman tell the story
Speaker 1: of Abe Lincoln, the wrestler who knew who knew? I didn't,
Speaker 1: And I've read a lot about Lincoln, and well, some
Speaker 1: of the books he cited I have on my desk.
Speaker 1: I have a stack of Lincoln books I still have
Speaker 1: to read. And you can never stop reading about Lincoln
Speaker 1: and Washington and some of these great almost Titanic personalities
Speaker 1: because there's just so much to them. By the way,
Speaker 1: Mike spent his life as a newspaper writer and editor
Speaker 1: in Iowa, and also has spent fifty years of his
Speaker 1: life writing and researching wrestling. He's appeared on A and
Speaker 1: E Network, ESPN, and the WWE abe Lincoln and the
Speaker 1: wrestling match that became the turning point in his life.
Speaker 1: Here on our American Stories,