WEBVTT - A Wrestling Match Made Abraham Lincoln a Frontier Legend?

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<v Speaker 1>This is Lee Habib and this is our American Stories

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<v Speaker 1>and we tell stories about everything here on this show,

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<v Speaker 1>from the arts to sports, and from business to history

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<v Speaker 1>and everything in between, including your story. Senem Ouramerican Stories

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<v Speaker 1>dot Com. There's some of our favorites. And this next

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<v Speaker 1>story is brought to us by a listener Mike Chapman,

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<v Speaker 1>who listens to us on ten forty who out of

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<v Speaker 1>Des Moines, Iowa. Abraham Lincoln is one of the greatest

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<v Speaker 1>leaders in US history, but prior to his being elected

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<v Speaker 1>the sixteenth President of the United States, he used his

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<v Speaker 1>skills as a wrestler to win approval from the masses.

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<v Speaker 1>Mike Chapman has been writing about and researching wrestling for

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<v Speaker 1>many years. He is also the author of The Sport

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<v Speaker 1>of Lincoln. Here is Mike Chapman to share this turning

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<v Speaker 1>point story in Abraham Lincoln's life.

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<v Speaker 2>Aside from my passion for wrestling, I have long been

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<v Speaker 2>intrigued by the history of US presidents. That really began

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<v Speaker 2>to blossom when I was executive editor of the daily

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<v Speaker 2>newspaper in Dixon, Illinois, which is the hometown of Ronald Reagan.

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<v Speaker 2>I was the editor there from nineteen eighty nine to

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety eight. During that ten year period, I discovered

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<v Speaker 2>that Abe Lincoln had actually served in the very same

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<v Speaker 2>location that is Dixon today. Lincoln served there during the

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<v Speaker 2>Blackhawk War of eighteen thirty two, and that fact really

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<v Speaker 2>inspired me to learn more about Lincoln as a young man,

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<v Speaker 2>which in turn led me to the little village of

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<v Speaker 2>New Salem, Illinois. It is located about two hundred miles

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<v Speaker 2>south of Dixon and about twenty miles northwest of Springfield, Illinois.

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<v Speaker 2>And what a wonderful place that is for any history

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<v Speaker 2>buff Abraham Lincoln was born on February sixth, eighteen nine

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<v Speaker 2>and raised in Kentucky, but when he was seven, the

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<v Speaker 2>Lincoln family moved to Indiana. He grew into a strapping

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<v Speaker 2>young man, nearly six foot four inches tall and weighing

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<v Speaker 2>about one hundred and eighty pounds. He first strolled into

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<v Speaker 2>New Salem in eighteen thirty one as a twenty two

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<v Speaker 2>year old looking for a new start in life, and

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<v Speaker 2>soon he became engaged in an event that was destined

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<v Speaker 2>to play a very important role in his career. It

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<v Speaker 2>was called scuffling or grappling, and in modern terms it

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<v Speaker 2>is called wrestling. But first a little background. Wrestling is

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<v Speaker 2>often called mankind's oldest sport, as it is a subject

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<v Speaker 2>in some of the oldest pieces of literature known to exist.

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<v Speaker 2>In the Epic of Gilgamesh, composed in ancient Samaar, which

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<v Speaker 2>today is now known as a Rock nearly four thousand

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<v Speaker 2>years ago, a wrestling contest between Gilgamesh, the king of

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<v Speaker 2>the large city of Uruk, and a forest giant named

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<v Speaker 2>Incadu is an important feature of the saga in the Bible.

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<v Speaker 2>As described in Genesis, the Hebrew patriarch Jacob wrestles with

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<v Speaker 2>the Angel of the Lord. After a struggle that lasted

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<v Speaker 2>all through the night, the angel gave Jacob a new name, Israel,

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<v Speaker 2>which loosely translated means contested with God.

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<v Speaker 3>Some of the greatest figures in.

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<v Speaker 2>Ancient Greece, such as theseus Hercules and Achilles, the most

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<v Speaker 2>celebrated hero in the Trojan War epic known as the Iliad,

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<v Speaker 2>were wrestlers, and there are drawings of wrestlers inside some

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<v Speaker 2>of the pyramids in Egypt. Wrestling came to the New

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<v Speaker 2>World with the first colonists back in the late sixteen

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<v Speaker 2>hundreds that flourished along the Eastern seaboard and moved west

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<v Speaker 2>with the men who carved homes out of the wilderness,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was popular both as a test of manhood

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<v Speaker 2>and as a form of entertainment in small villages like

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<v Speaker 2>New Salem. It also attracted bedding, which made it even

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<v Speaker 2>more popular. Today, New Salem is a beautiful state park

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<v Speaker 2>with over sixth one hundred and fifty thousand visitors a year.

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<v Speaker 2>It is possible to walk through the main gate and

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<v Speaker 2>stroll down the same path that a twenty two year

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<v Speaker 2>old Abe Lincoln traversed in eighteen thirty one. The village

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<v Speaker 2>was founded in eighteen twenty eight, and Lincoln lived there

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<v Speaker 2>for about six years, serving as a surveyor, postmaster, stove operator,

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<v Speaker 2>and rail splitter. It was here that Lincoln got his

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<v Speaker 2>first taste of politics when he was elected to the

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<v Speaker 2>Illinois General Assembly, and it was also here, in eighteen

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<v Speaker 2>thirty one that the Lincoln legend first began to bloom

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<v Speaker 2>thanks to wrestling. Lincoln came to New Salem because he

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<v Speaker 2>had received an offer from a man named Denton Offit

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<v Speaker 2>to work in his little store situated on a bluff

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<v Speaker 2>near the Sangamon River. They had met some time earlier

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<v Speaker 2>when Lincoln had worked for Offitt on his flatboat taking

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<v Speaker 2>goods down the Mississippi River to sell in New Orleans.

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<v Speaker 2>Off It took a liking to Lincoln and told him

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<v Speaker 2>that he could work for him in New Salem if

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<v Speaker 2>he ever decided to venture over that way. So now,

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<v Speaker 2>when Lincoln arrived, off It was in competition with another

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<v Speaker 2>store just forty feet from his. It was run by

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<v Speaker 2>a man by the name of William Clary. In the

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<v Speaker 2>summer of eighteen thirty one, Clary was selling liquor from

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<v Speaker 2>his store and doing very well. He charged twelve cents

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<v Speaker 2>for a drink of brandy, gin or whiskey, and twice

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<v Speaker 2>that for his best wine.

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<v Speaker 3>He developed a.

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<v Speaker 2>Good and steady business of local customers and visitors from

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<v Speaker 2>off the river. When river travelers came up the bluff

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<v Speaker 2>for a break in their journeys, they were looking for

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<v Speaker 2>a place to drink a.

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<v Speaker 3>Bit and swap tails.

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<v Speaker 2>So Offit chose to build his store very close to Clary's,

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<v Speaker 2>and the two men competed for business. Claire's store was

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<v Speaker 2>at the top of the bluff, about forty feet in front.

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<v Speaker 3>Of office store.

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<v Speaker 2>Travelers had to make a choice between them as to

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<v Speaker 2>which was the best place to spend their small amount

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<v Speaker 2>of money. Lincoln had him. He pressed off it with

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<v Speaker 2>his wiry strength. Offatt had seen Abe pick up large

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<v Speaker 2>barrels of whiskey and other bulky items and carry them

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<v Speaker 2>off with these. At six feet four and four inches

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<v Speaker 2>of height and carrying close to one hundred and eighty

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<v Speaker 2>pounds of sinewy muscle, he was very large man for

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<v Speaker 2>that time. Offitt was a man who liked to talk

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<v Speaker 2>a lot. He is very proud of his new helper

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<v Speaker 2>and boasted to William Clary that Abe was the strongest

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<v Speaker 2>man he knew. But Clarrey knew a few strong men

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<v Speaker 2>as well. They were men of a different temperament than

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<v Speaker 2>Abe Lincoln loud and belligerent when the liquor took effect.

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<v Speaker 2>Wrestling was the best way to determine what a man

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<v Speaker 2>was made of. The bouts in the thick grass between

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<v Speaker 2>Claire's Store an office store, or a regular occurrence in

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<v Speaker 2>a true frontier style. The ringleader of the bunch was

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<v Speaker 2>a rugged farmer from nearby Claire's Grove called Jack Armstrong.

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<v Speaker 2>Shorter than Lincoln, Armstrong was much thicker and heavier. At

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<v Speaker 2>age twenty seven, he was five years older than Abe.

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<v Speaker 2>Little is known about Armstrong's wrestling expertise, other than the

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<v Speaker 2>fact that he was considered the roughest of the gang

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<v Speaker 2>of young men who resided at Clari's Grove and hung

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<v Speaker 2>out at the Clary's Tavern.

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<v Speaker 1>And when we continue more of Mike Chapman's story about

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<v Speaker 1>Abe Lincoln here on Our American Stories, Lee Habib here

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<v Speaker 1>and I'd like to encourage you to subscribe to Our

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<v Speaker 1>American Stories on Apple Podcasts, the iHeartRadio app, Spotify, or

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<v Speaker 1>want to hear again can be found there daily again.

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<v Speaker 1>helps us keep these great American stories coming. And we

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<v Speaker 1>continue with our American Stories and Mike Chapman's story a

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<v Speaker 1>listener about Abraham Lincoln's wrestling match that became the turning

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<v Speaker 1>point in his life. Let's continue with Mike Chapman.

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<v Speaker 2>Within a short amount of time from Lincoln's arrival, a

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<v Speaker 2>match was brewing, and talk soon reached the point that

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<v Speaker 2>if either man shied away, he would be branded a coward.

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<v Speaker 2>Tired of Offitt's boasting, Armstrong eagerly accepted the challenge of

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<v Speaker 2>wrestling Lincoln. Offatt offered to bet anyone ten dollars that

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<v Speaker 2>Lincoln would win. Money, drinks, and various items were soon

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<v Speaker 2>being waged all around the village. Finally, the two men,

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<v Speaker 2>Lincoln and Armstrong, met on the grassy area between the

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<v Speaker 2>stores to settle the talk. As many as one hundred

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<v Speaker 2>men gathered to see the contest as it was undone

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<v Speaker 2>doubtedly a major source of discussion in the little village

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<v Speaker 2>and the surrounding area. While Abe had the advantage in

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<v Speaker 2>height and leverage, Jack had the advantage and experience and attitude.

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<v Speaker 2>He was undoubtedly a more seasoned grappler and fighter. According

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<v Speaker 2>to all reports. Now, there were several types of wrestling

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<v Speaker 2>that were engaged in on the frontier. One style was

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<v Speaker 2>to where the two men agreed to grab a hold

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<v Speaker 2>on each other and see who could throw who first.

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<v Speaker 2>What it was was just a good old fashioned scuffle,

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<v Speaker 2>with each man trying to throw the other to his

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<v Speaker 2>back and holding there. It was just two men tugging

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<v Speaker 2>and pulling each other in an effort to subdue the other.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes foot stomping was a frequent tactic, as was hire

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<v Speaker 2>pulling and thumbing of the face. In nineteen thirty nine,

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<v Speaker 2>a popular movie called Abe Blincoln of Illinois was made

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<v Speaker 2>from the poetry prize winning player the same name, written

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<v Speaker 2>by Robert Sherwood. In this film version of the story, Lincoln,

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<v Speaker 2>played superbly by Raymond Massey, tangles with Armstrong, played with

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<v Speaker 2>gusto by Howard de Silva in a wild affair. It

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<v Speaker 2>was a dramatic version thus certainly looked good on film.

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<v Speaker 2>Many stories had the match ending with Lincoln on his

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<v Speaker 2>feet looking down at the defeated Armstrong. The Claire's Grove boys,

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<v Speaker 2>angry at seeing their best man beaten, advanced on Lincoln,

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<v Speaker 2>shouting at him and raising their fists, and all out

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<v Speaker 2>fight appeared imminent. Lincoln supposedly stood with his back against

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<v Speaker 2>one of the two stores fist clintch and declared that

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<v Speaker 2>he would take them all on one at a time

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<v Speaker 2>if necessary. However, Armstrong came to Lincoln's side and told

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<v Speaker 2>his pells that Lincoln had beaten him fairly and that

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<v Speaker 2>he had proven that he was worthy of their respect. Boys.

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<v Speaker 2>He Lincoln is the best fellow that ever broke into

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<v Speaker 2>this settlement, said Armstrong, he shall be one of us.

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<v Speaker 2>The Claire's Grove boys backed off, and Lincoln gained a

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<v Speaker 2>new in the little village. He was known from then

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<v Speaker 2>on as a man not to be trifled with, despite

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<v Speaker 2>his infectious grin and considered good humor. The fact was

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<v Speaker 2>it seemed that Lincoln could defend himself, and he gained

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<v Speaker 2>immense stature due to his wrestling prowess, so the main

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<v Speaker 2>thrust of the bout could be described like this. Lincoln

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<v Speaker 2>didn't really want to wrestle Armstrong because he felt it

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<v Speaker 2>was building up too much as a fight and not

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<v Speaker 2>strictly a good natured contest, but when he saw how

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<v Speaker 2>everyone's talking about the match and making such a big deal,

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<v Speaker 2>he knew it was bound to take place eventually. It

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<v Speaker 2>is estimated today that nearly fifteen thousand books had been

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<v Speaker 2>written about Abraham Lincoln, more than any other figure in

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<v Speaker 2>history with the exception of Jesus Christ, and many of

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<v Speaker 2>these books talk about Lincoln's contest with Jack Armstrong and

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<v Speaker 2>its impact on his career. The most thorough discussion of

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<v Speaker 2>Lincoln's wrestling background comes in the book Honor's Voice That

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<v Speaker 2>Transferred Me of Abraham Lincoln, written by Douglas L. Wilson

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<v Speaker 2>in nineteen ninety nine. The book offers an entire chapter

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<v Speaker 2>nearly thirty two pages, devoted to Lincoln's wrestling prowess, appropriately

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<v Speaker 2>entitled quote Wrestling with the Evidence.

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<v Speaker 3>Here's the key part.

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<v Speaker 2>Abraham Lincoln's election to the presidency and his eventual elevation

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<v Speaker 2>to the pantheon of American heroes have transformed his wrestling

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<v Speaker 2>match with Jack Armstrong from a rowdy initiation right in

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<v Speaker 2>an obscure pioneer village into a notable historical event end quote.

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<v Speaker 2>Wilson then quotes John T. Stewart, who knew Lincoln as

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<v Speaker 2>well as anyone and brought him into his law firm

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<v Speaker 2>in Springfield after Lincoln left New Salem.

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<v Speaker 3>Quote.

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<v Speaker 2>This was the turning point in Lincoln's life, Stuart claimed

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<v Speaker 2>after the death of his longtime friend, talking about the

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<v Speaker 2>wrestling match as a fitting in to the New Salem

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<v Speaker 2>wrestling match story. Lincoln became friends with the Armstrong family

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<v Speaker 2>and often visited the Little Cabin in the months after

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<v Speaker 2>the match with Jack. Jack's wife, Hannah, even knitted some

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<v Speaker 2>shirts for Abe, and Abe would babysit, sometimes rocking the

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<v Speaker 2>cradle of their young baby. Lincoln left New Salem after

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<v Speaker 2>six years and moved to Springfield, where he began his

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<v Speaker 2>law career. Years later, he even defended Jack's son, Deaf Armstrong,

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<v Speaker 2>in a famous legal case. Jack Armstrong didn't live long

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<v Speaker 2>enough to see Lincoln win the presidency, dying in eighteen

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<v Speaker 2>fifty four at the age of fifty. He is buried

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<v Speaker 2>in an obscure out of the Way Frontiers cemetery a

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<v Speaker 2>mile or two from New Salem. Unknown except for his

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<v Speaker 2>grappling contest with a man who became the sixteenth President

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<v Speaker 2>of the United States and arguably the most popular American ever,

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<v Speaker 2>there are other brief references to Lincoln using his grappling

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<v Speaker 2>skills after the Armstrong encounter. Some time later, while working

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<v Speaker 2>in another tiny store in New Salem, a man insulted

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<v Speaker 2>several women customers with profane language, and Lincoln asked him

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<v Speaker 2>to stop. The man persisted and said no one could

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<v Speaker 2>make him stop. Lincoln challenged him to step outside, flung

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<v Speaker 2>into the ground, and stuffed weeds in his mouth until

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<v Speaker 2>the man surrendered. In August of eighteen thirty four, while

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<v Speaker 2>running for the state legislature, Lincoln found the opportunity to

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<v Speaker 2>show his wrestling skills once again. During that time, he

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<v Speaker 2>was running for office once again, and this time he

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<v Speaker 2>was elected to the state legislature. Just as Lincoln was

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<v Speaker 2>getting ready to speak, a fight broke out in the

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<v Speaker 2>crowd and his friend was roughed up. Lincoln jumped off

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<v Speaker 2>the platform, grabbed his friends assailant tossed him a few feet,

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<v Speaker 2>then strode back to the platform and began his speech.

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<v Speaker 2>And then there was also a report of Lincoln losing

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<v Speaker 2>a grappling contest.

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<v Speaker 3>It occurred during the Blackhawk.

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<v Speaker 2>War years, sometime in the eighteen thirty one thirty three period,

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<v Speaker 2>and took place in Beardstown, Illinois, a little village about

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<v Speaker 2>fifty miles west of Dixon. The foe was a man

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<v Speaker 2>named Lorenzo Doll Thompson, and many years later, in eighteen sixty,

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<v Speaker 2>while running for the presidency, Lincoln himself talked about the

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<v Speaker 2>struggle in an interview. Lincoln said up to that time

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<v Speaker 2>he had never been thrown, and neither had Thompson.

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<v Speaker 3>They squared off, grabbed.

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<v Speaker 2>Hold of each other before a large group of soldiers,

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<v Speaker 2>and struggled valiantly, but Lincoln said he was thrown twice

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<v Speaker 2>declaring Thompson was strong enough to whip a grizzly bear

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<v Speaker 2>and the best man he.

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<v Speaker 3>Had ever grappled with.

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<v Speaker 2>And then there's this fascinating tidbit from the Douglas Wilson

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<v Speaker 2>book Honor's Voice. He adds that Abes' mother, Nancy Hanks,

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<v Speaker 2>liked to wrestle, and quote, in a fair wrestle, she

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<v Speaker 2>could throw most of the men who ever put her

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<v Speaker 2>powers to the test. So let us conclude with this

0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:13.120
<v Speaker 2>statement from Wilson's book quote. Legends, by their very nature,

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<v Speaker 2>are not so much factual account as symbolic embodiments or

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<v Speaker 2>expressions of what the facts represent. In any case, Abe

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<v Speaker 2>Lincoln's wrestling prowess can best be interpreted as representing Lincoln

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<v Speaker 2>as a strong, determined, and fearless fellow, ready to take

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<v Speaker 2>on the task at hand and never shrinking from the

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<v Speaker 2>ordeal itself. After all, that is what the man known

0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:43.360
<v Speaker 2>as honest Abe would want from us, the peer, truth,

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<v Speaker 2>the facts, and nothing else.

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<v Speaker 3>Abe Lincoln was a wrestler.

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<v Speaker 1>And you've been listening to Mike Chapman tell the story

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<v Speaker 1>of Abe Lincoln, the wrestler who knew who knew? I didn't,

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<v Speaker 1>And I've read a lot about Lincoln, and well, some

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<v Speaker 1>of the books he cited I have on my desk.

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<v Speaker 1>I have a stack of Lincoln books I still have

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<v Speaker 1>to read. And you can never stop reading about Lincoln

0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:13.480
<v Speaker 1>and Washington and some of these great almost Titanic personalities

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<v Speaker 1>because there's just so much to them. By the way,

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<v Speaker 1>Mike spent his life as a newspaper writer and editor

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<v Speaker 1>in Iowa, and also has spent fifty years of his

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<v Speaker 1>life writing and researching wrestling. He's appeared on A and

0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:32.280
<v Speaker 1>E Network, ESPN, and the WWE abe Lincoln and the

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<v Speaker 1>wrestling match that became the turning point in his life.

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<v Speaker 1>Here on our American Stories,