WEBVTT - Short Stuff: Pruney Skin

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and Chuck's

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<v Speaker 1>here and Jerry's sitting in for Daves, and that makes

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<v Speaker 1>this a short. Do you want to take it from here?

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<v Speaker 2>Sure? I had this idea because of a story I'm

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<v Speaker 2>going to very quickly tell that may make people think

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<v Speaker 2>I'm a terrible parent. But my daughter the other day

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<v Speaker 2>was in the bathtub for seven plus hours.

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<v Speaker 1>What what'd she do? And does she read or play

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<v Speaker 1>video games or.

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<v Speaker 2>She's always like long baths. She just kicks it and

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<v Speaker 2>plays with her little action figures, her cuckoos, and she's

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<v Speaker 2>always just done voices and little made up worlds and

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<v Speaker 2>just sometimes it's music. Sometimes it's her favorite podcast, story Pirates.

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<v Speaker 2>But the other day she got in early in the morning.

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<v Speaker 2>It was a Saturday. She didn't eney anything going on,

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<v Speaker 2>and she just stayed and stayed, And then I think

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<v Speaker 2>was playing it up because I kept going in there

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<v Speaker 2>every hour and saying a new household record, and then

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<v Speaker 2>I would say the time, and she just thought it

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<v Speaker 2>was hysterical. So she came out. I'm going to text

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<v Speaker 2>you actually right now the picture of her hand, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>And I've never seen anything like it, and it made

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<v Speaker 2>me think, like, you know what, I don't even really

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<v Speaker 2>know why people's hands and feet prune up anyway, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's where this was born.

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<v Speaker 1>What a fantastic story, What a great origin story for this.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you have your phone?

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<v Speaker 1>I do? Lay it on me all right?

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<v Speaker 2>I sent it to you. It's incredible. You know, I'll

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<v Speaker 2>post this on my Instagram Chuck the podcaster when this

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<v Speaker 2>comes out, because people should see. God, isn't that amazing?

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<v Speaker 1>Wow? She looks like Benjamin Button after he was first born.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's really something that is amazing.

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<v Speaker 1>I'll bet you were like, how does this happen?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the first thing I looked up was like, have

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<v Speaker 2>I done something really wrong? It's this danger and it

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<v Speaker 2>is not. You can sit in the water like that

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<v Speaker 2>and it's all fine and good and your handsle and

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<v Speaker 2>feet will go back to normal soon enough.

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<v Speaker 1>That's awesome. I've done something wrong. Yes, it's gonna be

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<v Speaker 1>like that forever. So okay, there's a great question. This

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<v Speaker 1>is a tailor made short stuff, Chuck, Like, what makes

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<v Speaker 1>your skin prune up when it's submerged in the water.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's not just any part of your skin, it's

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<v Speaker 1>specifically your hands and your feet, and in particular your

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<v Speaker 1>fingertips and toes that really get pruney at least first.

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<v Speaker 1>And the answer is, we're not one hundred percent sure

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<v Speaker 1>why that happens. There's some good guesses, but science seems

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<v Speaker 1>to have gotten to the bottom of how it happens.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it was for a long time, I think, up

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<v Speaker 2>until like the early twentieth century, science basically thought it

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<v Speaker 2>was osmosis. So you know, the movement of water from

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<v Speaker 2>one place to another, in this case from the outer

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<v Speaker 2>layers the drier outer layers of the skin retreats essentially,

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<v Speaker 2>and so your skin and hands are expands that surface

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<v Speaker 2>area and it just gets wrinkly. But then they were like,

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<v Speaker 2>wait a minute, that's not the case.

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<v Speaker 1>No, because somebody figured out in the nineteen thirties that

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<v Speaker 1>if you have nerve damage on your fingertips, you can

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<v Speaker 1>soak and palm olive till the cows come home and

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<v Speaker 1>you're not going to get pruny fingers. So like, that

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't make any sense, Like if it's just osmosis, like

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<v Speaker 1>it should happen to anybody with skin in water, that's

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<v Speaker 1>just how that works. So they're like, since it's nerve damage,

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<v Speaker 1>that makes us think that there's some sort of maybe

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<v Speaker 1>autonomic nervous system control going on, And it turns out

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<v Speaker 1>that's exactly what it is. And the original scientists who

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<v Speaker 1>thought that it was it wrinkled from your skin puffing up.

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<v Speaker 1>We're kind of looking at it backwards, and it turns

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<v Speaker 1>out your skin is actually shrinking it when it gets

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<v Speaker 1>all pruney from being in the water.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's vaso constriction. So your blood vessels under the

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<v Speaker 2>epidermis are shrinking, and it's just a response to water.

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<v Speaker 2>When you put something in water for your skin that

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<v Speaker 2>is in water too long, the nervous system is going

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<v Speaker 2>to restrict that blood flow automatically. It's a pro like

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<v Speaker 2>you said, the autonomic system which controls perspiration and breathing

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<v Speaker 2>and the things we don't need to think about, and

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<v Speaker 2>this is just another one. You lose that volume in

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<v Speaker 2>each little fingertip and they shrink inward and it looks pruney.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so rather than puffing out paying attention to those ridges,

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<v Speaker 1>you wanted to look at the valleys. That's the key

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<v Speaker 1>the valley.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>The science finally figure that out, and apparently they've known

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<v Speaker 1>it for decades. I didn't know what it was until

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<v Speaker 1>just now. So thanks for that, and I say we

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<v Speaker 1>take a break because it's kind of like the wild

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<v Speaker 1>Wild West, just a total free frawll in explaining why

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<v Speaker 1>that happens. So check. There's a bunch of different theories

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<v Speaker 1>about why our fingers proved, because if you think about

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<v Speaker 1>it, it doesn't really make sense if it's not osmosis and

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<v Speaker 1>it's just like a passive response to being in water.

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<v Speaker 1>But our actual nervous system is doing this. Why is

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<v Speaker 1>there an evolutionary advantage to it? Because think about it,

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<v Speaker 1>it takes energy to do that, and over time that

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<v Speaker 1>would suggest that natural selection selected for that trait in humans.

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<v Speaker 1>And it turns out, yeah, that's right.

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<v Speaker 2>Weirdly, and this is the theory that I think a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of scientists have gotten behind and they say they've

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure if they can say they've really really

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<v Speaker 2>proved it, but they have done some studies that sort

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<v Speaker 2>of indicate that it may be true. But there was

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<v Speaker 2>a guy in twenty eleven named Mark Changeeze, and Mark

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<v Speaker 2>Changheze said, hey, I got a little theory on why

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<v Speaker 2>skin prunes if you want to hear it. Actually he

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<v Speaker 2>was an evolutionary neurobiologist, so he probably didn't talk like that,

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<v Speaker 2>but he was in Boise, Idaho, and he and his

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<v Speaker 2>colleague said, what we think is going on is that

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<v Speaker 2>it is an evolutionary adaptation that is a benefit to us,

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<v Speaker 2>and that is it makes us able to grip things

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<v Speaker 2>better when our hands or the thing or both are wet.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, And everybody else went prove it, and some other

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<v Speaker 1>people did. I think a UK group from New Kestle

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<v Speaker 1>Diversity actually took that theory and put it to the test,

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<v Speaker 1>and they found out that if you pick up wet

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<v Speaker 1>or dry objects, marbles specifically of varying sizes, if your

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<v Speaker 1>fingers are pruney, you are twelve percent faster at picking

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<v Speaker 1>up wet marbles than somebody whose fingers aren't pruney or

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<v Speaker 1>just plump and dry like normal. Yeah, that's significant, that's

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<v Speaker 1>a that's a big difference, twelve percent faster. I tried

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<v Speaker 1>to give an example or figure out an example. I can't,

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<v Speaker 1>but just accept that that's actually a pretty pretty it's

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<v Speaker 1>a reasonable difference that suggests like, no, there's an actual

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<v Speaker 1>like ad this is an adaptation, right, And the way

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<v Speaker 1>that it's kind of described is that like our fingers

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<v Speaker 1>turned into tire tread in wet conditions. Almost.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's a perfect way to describe it. The way

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<v Speaker 2>that one of the biologists at Newcastle explained it is

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<v Speaker 2>completely incorrect, which bothers me. Yeah, because he said, we've

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<v Speaker 2>shown that they give better grip and wet conditions. True,

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<v Speaker 2>it could be working like treads on your car tires. True,

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<v Speaker 2>This is the part that's not right, he says, which

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<v Speaker 2>allows more of the tire to be in contact with

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<v Speaker 2>the road and gives you a better grip. Not true

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<v Speaker 2>at all, because while he may know a lot about

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<v Speaker 2>brain stuff, this guy didn't know nothing about car racing.

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<v Speaker 1>No, he just knows he likes to riding cars.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because you know, race cars have slicks on them

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<v Speaker 2>because you have one hundred percent contact with the road

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<v Speaker 2>and much better grip. Treads actually give you less grip.

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<v Speaker 2>The reason you have treads is to so the water

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<v Speaker 2>spills on a wet road spills between the treads like

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<v Speaker 2>a little valley, and that's the same thing that's happening here.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, channels water through it. So that Yeah, so you

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<v Speaker 1>actually do have less contact but better traction.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So aside from that, I think like standing ovation

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<v Speaker 2>for me on this theory and proving it with a

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<v Speaker 2>game of marbles.

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<v Speaker 1>I cannot agree with you on that.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, what do you think, buddy?

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<v Speaker 1>I have a question, That's what I think. I have

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<v Speaker 1>a question.

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<v Speaker 2>Uh huh?

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<v Speaker 1>Does it have to have a function? Can it just

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<v Speaker 1>be a consequence of the fact that we have evolved

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<v Speaker 1>to send our hot blood toward the core when we're

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<v Speaker 1>submerged in water to keep us alive, to keep the

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<v Speaker 1>important bits alive, which means that the blood flows away

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<v Speaker 1>from our extremities, like our fingertips, and because of that,

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<v Speaker 1>our fingertips just kind of shrink, like they're saying, like

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<v Speaker 1>it's vasco constriction. Does it Does it have to have

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<v Speaker 1>a reason evolutionarily or can it just be a consequence

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<v Speaker 1>of that a byproduct that doesn't make any sense, or

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<v Speaker 1>it just so happens it gives us better grip, or

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<v Speaker 1>we have better grip when our fingers are crooney?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, is that a question you could ask

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<v Speaker 2>about any evolutionary advantage is like did that just happen

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<v Speaker 2>and it was coincidence that it turned out to be

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<v Speaker 2>good for our survival?

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<v Speaker 1>No? Because I mean, let's say flying flight and burn right.

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<v Speaker 1>Even if that did just happen to evolve as an

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<v Speaker 1>accident or a consequence of something else, which I don't

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<v Speaker 1>think it did. It was so quickly and so thoroughly

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<v Speaker 1>selected that they think that flight occurred. It like evolves

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<v Speaker 1>separately in different areas of the world at different times.

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<v Speaker 1>It's just that it's just that advantageous. This is not

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<v Speaker 1>particularly advantageous, and it's possible humans are just reading more

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<v Speaker 1>deeply into something. I know, you know what I was saying.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm essentially just restating my case here.

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<v Speaker 2>I would argue that it is, and they argue that

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<v Speaker 2>it is advantageous because Tuktook in the rain is able

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<v Speaker 2>to gather more twelve percent more in fact wet berries

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<v Speaker 2>then he would have had he not had that wrinkled skin,

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<v Speaker 2>and also potentially better attraction on slippy rock surfaces with

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<v Speaker 2>those pruny toes, and so TikTok isn't falling and hitting

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<v Speaker 2>his little head.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, it's mister smart guy. Why if it's just so

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<v Speaker 1>advantageous to have, why aren't our fingers puney all the time? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I know you're being coy because I have no idea.

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<v Speaker 2>But they did ask those scientists that same question, and

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<v Speaker 2>they said that it's not too clear, but their initial

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<v Speaker 2>thought was here's the quote. Our initial thoughts are that

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<v Speaker 2>this is that this could diminish the sensitivity in our

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<v Speaker 2>fingertips or could increase the risk of damage through catching

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<v Speaker 2>on objects. So skin goes back to smooth fingertips when

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<v Speaker 2>it's not needed, because that, you know, isn't so great

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<v Speaker 2>to have full time.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, that's a reasonable explanation to that one. Yeah, so

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<v Speaker 1>I guess well, I'm not going to say that the

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<v Speaker 1>case is subtled because I just don't agree.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey man, I respect your opinion, and you know what,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't really have one one way or the other.

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<v Speaker 2>I just think it's interesting.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, that's great. Well everybody chucks that, hey man,

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<v Speaker 1>which means short stuff is that.

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