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Speaker 1: I started to realize that not being an expert isn't

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Speaker 1: a liability, it's a real gift. If we don't know

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Speaker 1: something about ourselves at this point in our life, it's

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Speaker 1: probably because it's uncomfortable to know. If you can die

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Speaker 1: before you die, then you can really live. There's a

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Speaker 1: wisdom at death's door. I thought I was insane. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I didn't know what to do because there was

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Speaker 1: no internet. I don't know, man, I'm like, I feel

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Speaker 1: like everything is hard. Hey, y'all, my name is Kat.

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Speaker 1: I'm a human first and a licensed therapist second. And

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Speaker 1: right now I'm inviting you into conversations that I hope

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Speaker 1: encourage you to become more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others,

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Speaker 1: and the world around you. Welcome to You Need Therapy.

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Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome to a new episode of You

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Speaker 1: Need Therapy Podcast. My name is Kat. I am the host,

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Speaker 1: and our quick reminder up top. As always, even though

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Speaker 1: this podcast is called You Need Therapy, I am a therapist.

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Speaker 1: It does not serve as a replacement or a substitute

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Speaker 1: for any actual mental health services, but it can still

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Speaker 1: help you wherever you are on whatever journey you're in

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Speaker 1: whatever way you need. Now today is a solo episode,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to be talking about one of my

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Speaker 1: favorite things to talk about, which is relationships and how

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Speaker 1: we make meaning from them and how we make meaning

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Speaker 1: of them. And last year I did an episode with

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Speaker 1: my friend Jesse on red flags. It was actually almost

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Speaker 1: exactly a year ago, and it was a really fun episode.

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Speaker 1: I highly recommend and suggest you listen to it for

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Speaker 1: nothing other than entertainment if that's what you are needing

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Speaker 1: in the moment. But what conclusion our conversation led to

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Speaker 1: was that a red flag to one person could mean

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Speaker 1: nothing to another person. It's personal, not universal. And as

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Speaker 1: the past year has gone on, the topic of red

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Speaker 1: flags has continued to show up over and over in

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Speaker 1: our cultures everyday conversations on social media. And I do

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Speaker 1: believe that popular things become popular for a reason a

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Speaker 1: lot of times, most of the times all times. So

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Speaker 1: there is something about this discussion that has been giving

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Speaker 1: us something that we assume that we need. So what

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Speaker 1: might it be that we are needing? That is one

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Speaker 1: thing that I want to tackle today. I want to

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Speaker 1: kind of wrestle through this phenomenon and get to a

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Speaker 1: place of understanding together. And I want to do this

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Speaker 1: because over the last year, I have also noticed a

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Speaker 1: trend with red flag conversations. They are becoming less about

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Speaker 1: noticing signs that often we ignore that might be saying, yo,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if this is a match, and more

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Speaker 1: about pathologizing someone for who they are, whether that's ourselves

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Speaker 1: or the person that we were with or the person

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Speaker 1: that our friend was with. And I believe that red

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Speaker 1: flags don't necessarily mean a person as a bad person

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Speaker 1: in general. I mean they could, there are some red

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Speaker 1: flags that they could, but really, generally speaking, red flags

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Speaker 1: are about what works for you, not the entire world.

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Speaker 1: There are things that would be green flags to one

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Speaker 1: person in red flags to another. For example, I'll be

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Speaker 1: the first to admit this, I'm a little clingy and

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Speaker 1: physical touch is my love language, so I mean, like,

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Speaker 1: sometimes I'm physically cleany, and there are people who would

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Speaker 1: be repulsed by that and by me. And it's actually

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons that Patrick and I fit together

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Speaker 1: so well. I even asked him a while ago one

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Speaker 1: day what he would do if I didn't like physical

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Speaker 1: touch as much as I do, and he said, honestly,

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Speaker 1: we'd have a problem. I don't know if this could

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Speaker 1: work out because he adheres to those things too. We're

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Speaker 1: compatible in that way. I also remember sitting in my

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Speaker 1: bedroom after a breakup years back and my friend coming

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Speaker 1: over to talk to me, and I don't remember anything

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Speaker 1: I said or anything that she said, other than I'm

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Speaker 1: really glad you're not blaming yourself for this. And she

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Speaker 1: said this because for the first time, I really wasn't.

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Speaker 1: I really was not blaming myself. I had this profound

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Speaker 1: experience where something clicked within me. My ex wasn't a

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Speaker 1: bad person, and I wasn't a bad person, but he

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Speaker 1: also really didn't like me very much. And I think

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Speaker 1: I honestly was in the relationship because I was having

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Speaker 1: fun and because I wanted to be in a relationship,

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Speaker 1: not because I saw a future with him. This breakup

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Speaker 1: didn't leave me wanting to put the person who left

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Speaker 1: me on a pedestal. It left me asking what it

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Speaker 1: was that I actually enjoyed in that relationship that kept

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Speaker 1: me in it, and what needs I was ignoring because

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Speaker 1: of that. I don't know that he would say this,

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Speaker 1: but I think he thought I was annoying at times,

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Speaker 1: and he would get embarrassed by me in certain situations,

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Speaker 1: especially in public, but he didn't ever. I don't think

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Speaker 1: he thought I was a bad person. And our breakup

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Speaker 1: was about how we felt when we were with each other,

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Speaker 1: not what the other person lacked. He was annoyed and

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Speaker 1: I felt lonely. And it feels weird to say this,

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Speaker 1: but I think we both kind of wanted to like

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Speaker 1: each other more than we actually did, but we just

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Speaker 1: were not a good match, and we eventually came to

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Speaker 1: terms with that. But how many times have I and

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Speaker 1: have we all laid in bed after a breakup and

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Speaker 1: looked back at all of our text messages and thought

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Speaker 1: about all our conversations and asked ourselves what we could

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Speaker 1: have done differently so that things wouldn't have ended. If

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Speaker 1: we wouldn't have gotten mad at that thing, if we

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Speaker 1: would have been more thoughtful, if we would have asked

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Speaker 1: that question a different way, if I would have texted,

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Speaker 1: if I would have dressed differently. Maybe I should have

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Speaker 1: tried to be more agreeable or funnier, and the list

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Speaker 1: goes on, But the thought behind it is, then maybe

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Speaker 1: things would have worked out. When we get broken up

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Speaker 1: with we often start to pathologize ourselves, we think something

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Speaker 1: must be wrong with me, I'm too much or I'm

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Speaker 1: not enough. Starts to kind of take over our thoughts

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Speaker 1: and we start making up stories that have little to

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Speaker 1: know legs to stand on. And here we develop a

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Speaker 1: list of our own red flags that we start to

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Speaker 1: become very self conscious of. And we do this because

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Speaker 1: it's really really hard for a lot of people to

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Speaker 1: accept the fact that we are just not compatible with someone.

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Speaker 1: And this can be for a lot of reasons. It

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Speaker 1: can often have to do with our attachment styles. Attachment,

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Speaker 1: if you're unfamiliar, is the biological system in your body

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Speaker 1: that keeps you connected to others. Our attachment style is

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Speaker 1: how we tend to do that. So a lot of

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Speaker 1: us have heard of attachment styles. I've done plenty a

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Speaker 1: podcast on them. And our attachment system gets activated when

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Speaker 1: we perceive a threat to our connection. In this case,

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Speaker 1: it's pretty clear a relationship that we wanted to have

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Speaker 1: dissolves now early in our lives. When a threat to

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Speaker 1: our system comes, what we usually do is engage in

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Speaker 1: attachment behaviors. For example, if a child feels like they're

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Speaker 1: not getting their needs meant, they will start doing these

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Speaker 1: protest behaviors. They'll signal fur to stress, they'll whine, they'll cry,

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Speaker 1: they'll scan, they'll cling, and if that goes well, they'll

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Speaker 1: move back into this place of security. If that doesn't

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Speaker 1: go well, we'll start to form an insecure attachment. And

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Speaker 1: this is the avoidant and anxious attachment styles that you've

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Speaker 1: probably heard of often, whether here or just in the world.

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Speaker 1: And that was the smallest nutshell I could give you

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Speaker 1: right there for that, So please dig into more information

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Speaker 1: if you want to learn more about that. But we

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Speaker 1: learn how to handle these threats to our connection based

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Speaker 1: on how we've experience against the security of connection, primarily

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Speaker 1: in our formative years of our lives, and then we

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Speaker 1: take those strategies and beliefs about how relationships work with

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Speaker 1: us into our romantic relationships when we get older. So

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Speaker 1: if you're wondering what does all of this have to

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Speaker 1: do with red flags and compatibility, well, it has to

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Speaker 1: do with just about all of it. So avoidant and

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Speaker 1: anxious attachment tends to mirror each other's needs, and that's

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Speaker 1: why those kinds of people can be drawn to each other.

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Speaker 1: Dating someone with an insecure attachment makes your attachment more

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Speaker 1: solid in its own insecurity. It's like confirming a belief.

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Speaker 1: You deepen the lesson you've already learned, and that is

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Speaker 1: why you're attracted to them. We go to what we know.

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Speaker 1: The avoidant person believes people are too needy. The anxious

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Speaker 1: person believes they will leave me. Avoidant people leave. Anxious

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Speaker 1: people can appear overly needy. What is very important to

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Speaker 1: recognize here is that we are only needy. We're only

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Speaker 1: as needy as our unmet needs. The anxious needs to

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Speaker 1: soothe and connect within more Often they are caught up

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Speaker 1: with people that if they really allow themselves to find

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Speaker 1: connection to their own selves, then they might notice that

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Speaker 1: they don't even really like the person that they're with.

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Speaker 1: And the avoidant needs to allow feelings to show up

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Speaker 1: more so they can access their need for connection. But

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Speaker 1: we have to have feelings to be able to identify

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Speaker 1: our needs, but without any attunement to our own internal

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Speaker 1: working models of relationship and connection. When we are operating

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Speaker 1: from an insecure attachment, we try to squeeze ourselves into

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Speaker 1: versions of someone that would be compatible with that person

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Speaker 1: that we want to be with to avoid rejection, or

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Speaker 1: we overly judge someone's needs in relationships, so we can

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Speaker 1: convince ourselves to leave in avoid rejection. So when someone

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Speaker 1: leaves us, we get stuck on why was I not

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Speaker 1: good enough for them? What could I have done better?

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Speaker 1: Versus what were my need that we're not being met?

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Speaker 1: And did that work for me? Did that relationship really

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Speaker 1: work for me? Or when we leave someone, we say

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Speaker 1: they were to this or they were to that versus

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Speaker 1: what was I feeling when that happened and what might

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Speaker 1: have I needed in that moment. It's about the attainment

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Speaker 1: of connection and avoidance of rejection versus quality of relationship.

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Speaker 1: And without a lot of this information, it's easy just

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Speaker 1: to ask like why, Like why would somebody rather change

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Speaker 1: who they are to be with someone and to get

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Speaker 1: someone to like them then find a partner that actually

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Speaker 1: does like us. It's so easy to ask that question.

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Speaker 1: We ask that of others even when we do it ourselves,

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Speaker 1: and it's because our experiences have taught us that in

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Speaker 1: order to get our relational needs met, we need to

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Speaker 1: figure out if it's me or them that's the problem

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Speaker 1: and adjust accordingly. It's like a survival mechanism, avoidant it's them.

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Speaker 1: If they would just be blank, then I'd be fine anxious.

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Speaker 1: It's me if I would just have done blank, than

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Speaker 1: they wouldn't have left. But a lot of the experiences

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Speaker 1: that have taught us about ourselves and relationships are rooted

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Speaker 1: in stories we created to make sense of our situations

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Speaker 1: that are actually inaccurate stories. While I find it helpful

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Speaker 1: to assess how we show up in relationships and learn

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Speaker 1: from them. It's one thing to say I need to

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Speaker 1: learn how to communicate that my needs better, or I

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Speaker 1: need to work on my compromise skills, versus I need

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Speaker 1: to look this way or act this way, or be

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Speaker 1: more of this way or be less of that. I

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Speaker 1: think the partners we choose can be sometimes about finding

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Speaker 1: a way to confirm our inaccurate stories versus finding a

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Speaker 1: partner that we actually feel safe, heard and understood by.

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Speaker 1: And I mean that on both sides, both fronts of

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Speaker 1: anxious and avoidant attachment. The avoidant may choose an anxious

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Speaker 1: partner because they can easily show up for them and

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Speaker 1: be positively reinforced, But then they leave because eventually that

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Speaker 1: partner wants to show up, wants them to show up

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Speaker 1: for them, and you start and if you start to

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Speaker 1: like that or get used to that there's this fear

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Speaker 1: of abaniment and being left and that's just overwhelming, so

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Speaker 1: you just shut down. And a lot of their stories

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Speaker 1: having hope and relationship has been shown to always leave

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Speaker 1: you let down, so you get out before you get hurt.

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Speaker 1: This is when the red flags turn from us to them.

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Speaker 1: While someone who may be anxious initially pathologizes themselves, avoidant

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Speaker 1: humans initially might do the opposite. Sometimes I think this

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Speaker 1: can be really fair, truly I do. It is very helpful,

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Speaker 1: like I said earlier, to assess our behavior and hold

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Speaker 1: ourselves accountable and identify why we ignored certain behaviors that

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Speaker 1: don't actually work for us or showed up in ways

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Speaker 1: that don't actually feel authentic to us. But sometimes it's

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Speaker 1: really unfair. And just because you don't work out doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean the person is bad, and it doesn't mean that

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Speaker 1: you are not good or good enough. This is really

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Speaker 1: a defense mechanism that steps to keep us from feeling

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Speaker 1: the sadness and grief of the loss of something that

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Speaker 1: we wanted, something that prolongs actual acceptance. And the reality

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Speaker 1: is just because you weren't what someone wanted doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: you aren't wanted, and it doesn't mean you aren't enough.

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Speaker 1: And on the other side, just because you don't want

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Speaker 1: someone you don't want to be with someone, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean that they aren't wanted or enough or good. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean that there are things wrong with them or

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Speaker 1: there are things wrong with you. It often just means

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Speaker 1: you aren't compatible. If you've been here long enough, you

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Speaker 1: also know that I hate I strongly dislike generic dating

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Speaker 1: advice for many reasons, but one is a lot of

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Speaker 1: dating advice basically advocates for you to pretend to be

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Speaker 1: avoidant while creating so much anxiety inside of your system

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Speaker 1: and deepening those beliefs you have about yourself that very

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Speaker 1: often aren't true and acting in ways that are authentic

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Speaker 1: to you. I could go on and on and on,

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Speaker 1: and there are often these tips and rules that you're

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Speaker 1: supposed to use and play by to help you get

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Speaker 1: the person that you want to be with, like get

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Speaker 1: the guy, get the girl, And I need people to

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Speaker 1: hear this. I've said this on here before, but by

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Speaker 1: showing up and pretending to be someone you're not, you're

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Speaker 1: allowing someone else to be with you on their terms,

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Speaker 1: not yours, and you give away all of your power

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Speaker 1: to get your own needs met, and ultimately your needs

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Speaker 1: don't ever get met, and you reinforce very very very

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Speaker 1: untrue beliefs about yourself, about the world, about humans, about relationships,

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Speaker 1: and if somehow you end up in a relationship, if

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Speaker 1: you do get the guy or get the girl, by

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Speaker 1: playing these games and by being someone you're not, it

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Speaker 1: is eventually going to backfire in two main ways. One,

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Speaker 1: when you start to actually get comfortable and show up

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Speaker 1: how you really are, you're going to mess up the

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Speaker 1: system that your partners agreed to, and the partner will say,

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Speaker 1: this is not the person that I got into a

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Speaker 1: relationship with, and I'm going to lead, And so then

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Speaker 1: you lose, right or you pretend to be someone else

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Speaker 1: and you lose because you're never going to end up

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Speaker 1: getting your actual needs met. It's just going to go

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Speaker 1: on forever. That sounds like being locked in a jail

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Speaker 1: cell and it's like there's an open door, but you

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Speaker 1: won't go. You won't open it and walk out of it.

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Speaker 1: You're like stuck in the cell, but you're putting yourself

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Speaker 1: in it. The key is not about being the person

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Speaker 1: that other people want. It's about finding the person who

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Speaker 1: fits with what you need and want. For example, if

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Speaker 1: someone leaves a relationship because they desire a deeper emotional connection,

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Speaker 1: maybe that's what they say. It doesn't mean that you're

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Speaker 1: shallow or that there is something wrong with the depth

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Speaker 1: of yourself. It means that the depths might not align

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Speaker 1: the person who's who left, their depth is not better

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Speaker 1: than yours, and you're not worse. And you can just

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Speaker 1: apply that to so many situations. And if you're sitting

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Speaker 1: here thinking, well, the depth was fine with me. So

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Speaker 1: in my situation, we were compatible. It was working well.

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Speaker 1: You cannot be compatible with someone who wants something different

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Speaker 1: than what you have. That's not compatibility. You want somebody

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Speaker 1: that you align with. So my question is, now, if

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Speaker 1: we started to look at relationships that don't work out

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Speaker 1: as matches that ended up not being compatible, how would

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Speaker 1: that shift how we treat ourselves and how would that

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Speaker 1: shift the way we treat others. I think we would

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Speaker 1: be a lot kinder. I think we would be more

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Speaker 1: loving to ourselves and others. I think we'd be more

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Speaker 1: willing to mess up and try. I think we'd be

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Speaker 1: more eager to grow and less eager to change. I

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Speaker 1: think we would be more compassionate and less defensive, and

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Speaker 1: I think there would be less blame, less confusion, and

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Speaker 1: way more acceptance and understanding. Now, I still think we

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Speaker 1: can talk about red flags. I still think that there's

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Speaker 1: space for them, and sometimes I do know that the

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Speaker 1: conversations are lighthearted, But I want to put this child

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Speaker 1: engine where the red flags that we're talking about. When

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Speaker 1: we're talking about red flags, it's in a way that

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Speaker 1: we're talking about why this person wasn't a fit for

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Speaker 1: us or why we weren't a fit for them, and

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Speaker 1: less about what was wrong with us or what was

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Speaker 1: wrong with them. See that little distinction, Like it's about

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Speaker 1: why this wasn't a good fit versus what was wrong

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Speaker 1: with them. It's why I wasn't a fit for this

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Speaker 1: person versus what was wrong with me? Why this person

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Speaker 1: wasn't a fit with me versus what was wrong with them.

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Speaker 1: It's so crazy, you know. We want other people to

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Speaker 1: treat us with kindness and grace and understanding, and we

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Speaker 1: want people to give us the benefit of the doubt,

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Speaker 1: and we also have a hard time doing that to ourselves.

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Speaker 1: We have a hard time doing that with other people.

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Speaker 1: It's like when we get hurt, we either want to

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Speaker 1: like deepen the hurt or and agree to that mistreatment,

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Speaker 1: or we want to hurt somebody back. I wrote something

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Speaker 1: a week or two on Instagram about this, and I

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Speaker 1: just kind of want to read it because it hapsulates

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Speaker 1: a lot of what I'm saying, and I said, everywhere

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Speaker 1: you turn these days, it feels like someone is talking

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Speaker 1: about attachment styles, including me. Part of me loves us

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Speaker 1: because attachment is my therapeutic jam, while another part of

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Speaker 1: me hates this because the conversations that develop around attachment

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Speaker 1: theory in the everyday world have become so focused on

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Speaker 1: finding out what's wrong with you or the person that

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Speaker 1: you used to date. I can already tell you, without

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Speaker 1: even knowing who you are, that there's nothing in quotes

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Speaker 1: wrong with you, not inherently anyway. It's possible, however, that

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Speaker 1: there is something problematic about what you believe about yourself.

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Speaker 1: Learning about our attachment style is a way to help

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Speaker 1: us make sense of our beliefs about ourselves and the

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Speaker 1: world around us, and how they got to be that way.

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Speaker 1: It's not meant to make anyone feel like they need

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Speaker 1: to change who they are. It's a theory and a

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Speaker 1: tool that has the ability to guide humans to love

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Speaker 1: themselves better, not less. Now I could go on and

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Speaker 1: on about this, but if I have learned any thing

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Speaker 1: about the excessive amount of content on the subject is

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Speaker 1: that less is often more. So I'll leave you with this.

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Speaker 1: You don't have to change who you are to develop

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Speaker 1: a secure attachment. Security comes when you allow yourself to

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Speaker 1: remain in relationships with people who appreciate and love you

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Speaker 1: and who you are and leave the ones that don't. Ps.

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Speaker 1: This does not just apply to romantic relationships, and I

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Speaker 1: wanted to share that because the end of that is

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Speaker 1: so important, and we can get lost in all of

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Speaker 1: the excess of information. Like I said, some of this

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Speaker 1: stuff that I said could be over your head. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: it feels over my head. But the real meat of

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Speaker 1: all of this is that if we want to create

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Speaker 1: secure relationships with ourselves and others, it doesn't come down

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Speaker 1: to figuring out how to be the most perfect person

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Speaker 1: or the right person. Which reminds me of that episode

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Speaker 1: a couple weeks ago. What the difference the line between

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Speaker 1: growing and being your best self and the line of

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Speaker 1: accepting who you are? Right? So, secure relationships aren't about

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Speaker 1: attaining this highest level of rightness, and that's because there

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Speaker 1: are so many different versions of that. There are so

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Speaker 1: many different versions of people, and we so easily start

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Speaker 1: to tell ourselves that when something doesn't work out, it's

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Speaker 1: because I'm not right or they're not right. And while

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Speaker 1: sometimes there can be an exaggeration of that, like sometimes

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Speaker 1: people like I said, the red flag is just universal

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Speaker 1: and it's like that person is not a good human being,

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Speaker 1: But oftentimes it's just the people are different. And that's

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Speaker 1: really hard for us to accept because we create these

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Speaker 1: ideas in our head about what it would mean to

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Speaker 1: be in relationship with that person, but the reality is

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Speaker 1: the relationship isn't fulfilling because you are not compatible. And

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Speaker 1: my initial question in this episode was what might we

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Speaker 1: all be needing in our constant conversations about red flags?

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Speaker 1: And I really think that it comes down to we

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Speaker 1: we just want to feel better. If I can find

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Speaker 1: what I did wrong, I can fix it, and I

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Speaker 1: can avoid my grief. If I can find what they

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Speaker 1: did wrong, I can avoid my grief. Or you can

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Speaker 1: insert whatever feeling it is. It doesn't have to be grief,

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Speaker 1: whatever feeling it is for you. And I get that

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Speaker 1: as much as I know about how helpful feelings are

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Speaker 1: and how important it is to feel them. I also

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Speaker 1: deeply understand our pursuit to avoid them. But your feelings

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Speaker 1: are not going to kill you. They actually aren't even

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Speaker 1: going to hurt you even when they hurt. However, the

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Speaker 1: avoidance of them can and will. It can turn you

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Speaker 1: into someone that you're not, and it can strip away

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Speaker 1: your ability to actually find what it is you're looking for.

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Speaker 1: So if we want to feel better, what if we

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Speaker 1: instead become more honest And the truth is the honest

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Speaker 1: part of this is sometimes it just sucks when things

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Speaker 1: don't work out how you want them to, and that

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Speaker 1: can be the whole story. As always, I hope this

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Speaker 1: episode was helpful to you, and if you have any

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Speaker 1: questions or feedback, you can always send that to me

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Speaker 1: Katherine at You Need Therapy podcast dot com. You can

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Speaker 1: follow us at you Need Therapy Podcast at Kat dot Defada,

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Speaker 1: and you can follow my practice at Three Chords Therapy.

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Speaker 1: And I want to encourage you guys to take a

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Speaker 1: lot of this information with a lot of just grace

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Speaker 1: as you try to implement into your everyday life. And

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Speaker 1: I really think if we can kind of like how

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Speaker 1: we talked about on the episode about body image. If

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Speaker 1: we can start to shift those conversations and how we're

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Speaker 1: talking about our body, that naturally is going to just

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Speaker 1: eventually happen. We're creating these new neuropathways in our brain.

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Speaker 1: It's the same way with this. If we start to

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Speaker 1: shift the way we talk about why things did or

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Speaker 1: didn't work out with someone, why we left someone, why

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Speaker 1: someone left us, it eventually is going to catch up

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Speaker 1: with us and we aren't going to have to say, hey, hey, hey, hey,

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Speaker 1: it's not that they're bad, it's not that I'm bad,

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Speaker 1: it's that we're incompatible. So practice that, bring it into

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Speaker 1: your internal dialogue and see what happens. I hope that

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Speaker 1: you guys have the day that you need to have,

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Speaker 1: have the week you need to have, and I will

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Speaker 1: be back with you on Wednesday for a couch talks.

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Speaker 1: Bye guys,