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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and unbost Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this

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Speaker 1: is There Are No Girls on the Internet. When the

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Speaker 1: Trump administration claimed that tilernol during pregnancy could cause autism,

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Speaker 1: the science really didn't matter. Doctors pushback, but the damage

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Speaker 1: was already done and wellness influencers had already pounced. They

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Speaker 1: didn't just spread fear, they profited off of it, and

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Speaker 1: suddenly one of the only safe pain relievers to take

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Speaker 1: during pregnancy became just the latest weapon in a war

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Speaker 1: over reproductive health. Now, this is not just about tilnol.

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Speaker 1: It's about how wellness influencers turn a misinformation into an

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Speaker 1: online business model, and how their influence helped shape a

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Speaker 1: dangerous narrative coming right out of the White House. It's

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Speaker 1: something Mallory de Mille has seen a lot of. Mallory

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Speaker 1: makes content about the health and wellness industry. She's a

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Speaker 1: correspondent on one of my favorite podcasts, Conspirituality.

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Speaker 2: I'm Malorie de mill and I guess the title I

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Speaker 2: would use is content creator create content on Instagram and

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Speaker 2: TikTok that talks about influencer culture, specifically in the wellness space.

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Speaker 1: Nobody skewers the wellness influencer grift quite like you. You're

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Speaker 1: such a good social media.

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Speaker 2: Follow Thank you so much for saying that.

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Speaker 1: So how did this come to be something that you

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Speaker 1: pay attention to? Why are kind of wellness influencers on

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Speaker 1: social media? Why is that your beat? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I think the short answer probably is that I used

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Speaker 2: to follow willness influencers. And granted this was, you know,

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Speaker 2: almost a decade ago. I was in my mid to

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Speaker 2: later twenties, and I was following a number of wellness influencers.

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Speaker 2: After I completed business school, I went to college for

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Speaker 2: fitness and health promotion. Thought it one day, I would,

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Speaker 2: you know, combine those passions and open my own gym

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Speaker 2: and come to fruition. But have always been pretty interested

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Speaker 2: in health and wellness myself had a background in teaching fitness,

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Speaker 2: and I was definitely following a number of wellness influencers

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Speaker 2: for a few years there and realized at one point

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Speaker 2: that following them had nudged me in a direction of

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Speaker 2: having like a pretty terrible relationship with food and fitness

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Speaker 2: and my body that was like not really there before.

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Speaker 2: And so luckily, you know, unlearned and unpacked that many

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Speaker 2: of books and documentaries and resources and following other folks online,

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Speaker 2: and I was mostly just really upset that as someone

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Speaker 2: with the background in marketing, I got swindled by really

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Speaker 2: clever marketing. And I guess I'm in a place right

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Speaker 2: now where I always come back to creating content that

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Speaker 2: I wish there was more of when I was following

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Speaker 2: those influencers.

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Speaker 1: I do think that there is a misconception that people

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Speaker 1: who call out wellness scripters and these these influencers don't

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Speaker 1: care about fitness or don't care about health. You your

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Speaker 1: way through this was caring quite a bit about health

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Speaker 1: and fitness, and.

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Speaker 2: I still do. I think, you know, I think that

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Speaker 2: these wiless influencers that I cover in a lot of

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Speaker 2: ways and like not in other ways, we actually have

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Speaker 2: more in common than I think they realize. I love

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Speaker 2: working out, I love going to the gym. I cook

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Speaker 2: most of my own meals. I diffuse essential oils. I

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Speaker 2: just don't think they cure cancer. And I have often

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Speaker 2: described myself as like an evidence based wellness curly as

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Speaker 2: opposed to a wellness curly, lower case wellness as opposed

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Speaker 2: to upper case wellness.

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Speaker 1: Oh we are in the same sort of then diagram

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Speaker 1: because I love a lot of woo woo stuff that,

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Speaker 1: but I have a sense, you know, if I had cancer,

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Speaker 1: I would not turn to homeopathic cures or remedies, right

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Speaker 1: I would. I would, I would do what my doctor

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Speaker 1: said to do. And I think what you just said

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Speaker 1: is so interesting of you can, like essential oil, just

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Speaker 1: don't just don't think that they're going to cure cancer,

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Speaker 1: and then don't make money telling people that they maybe cann.

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Speaker 2: And I always like to make very clear too, like

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Speaker 2: I am someone in a fairly like privileged position in

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Speaker 2: a lot of ways, one of being that I have

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Speaker 2: never experienced or had to navigate a diagnosis or chronic illness,

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Speaker 2: and I don't know how like that path may have changed,

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Speaker 2: you know where I find myself right now. I do

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Speaker 2: see in my own work, like a lot of the

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Speaker 2: folks who are really keen to take advice and buy

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Speaker 2: products from these wallness influencers are in a space like that.

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Speaker 2: And so I do think that, you know, there is

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Speaker 2: a space where I think we're all like a little

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Speaker 2: bit susceptible to something like that. If we're like in

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Speaker 2: a vulnerable enough or like desperate enough place. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: my approach to wellness right now is very skeptical, incredibly skeptical.

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Speaker 2: And it makes me a bit sad seeing all this

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Speaker 2: like anti even anti wellness stuff, because I'm like, well,

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Speaker 2: this is great, and I love aspects of wellness, and

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Speaker 2: there's all these influencers that I think are ruining it

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Speaker 2: for everyone.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's such a good point. And you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: bram the same Instagram. I'm sure that you're Instagram algorithm

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Speaker 1: might look like mine. So often I think that the people,

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Speaker 1: oftentimes women, who are representing wellness, it's a particular kind

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Speaker 1: of woman, right, conventionally attractive, very fit, thin. I do you,

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Speaker 1: is there something where what they're actually selling is not

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Speaker 1: just the idea of being healthy and well, it's an

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Speaker 1: entire lifestyle and identity that comes along with it that

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Speaker 1: if you just buy this supplement or just do this

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Speaker 1: thing that they're doing, your life can look like my life,

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Speaker 1: which is which comes off as very idealized.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think like the lifestyle marketing aspect is beyond

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Speaker 2: wellness influencers. I know it's fairly popular in multi level

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Speaker 2: marketing advertising as well, from influencers about like look at

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Speaker 2: this lavish lifestyle that I have, and then the reality

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Speaker 2: is that they're kind of unfortunately living paycheck to paycheck

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Speaker 2: in that business model. I also really love the motto

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Speaker 2: or the phrase of your body is not your business card.

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Speaker 2: And so this idea of you know, not you using

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Speaker 2: your body to market particular supplements or like anything, really

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Speaker 2: because there's a huge component of like genetics, and you

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Speaker 2: don't actually know what someone's lifestyle is like they could

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Speaker 2: be actually very sick and you don't know that. And

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Speaker 2: so I think it goes back to that whole piece

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Speaker 2: of like social media being a highlight reel, and unfortunately

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Speaker 2: a lot of social media right now is just direct

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Speaker 2: advertising and anything that might impact someone's bottom line, they're

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Speaker 2: probably not going to share that.

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Speaker 1: Why should you care what wellness influencers are hawking on

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Speaker 1: social media? This vast network of health and wellness personalities

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Speaker 1: is increasingly stewing people toward extremist ways of thinking, and

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Speaker 1: they're making a fortune doing it. All about putting people's

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Speaker 1: real health at risk. Why do you think what's happening

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Speaker 1: in this sort of wellness content creator influencer space. Why

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Speaker 1: is it important to be paying attention to yeah.

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Speaker 2: The I would say, like, we are carrying around these

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Speaker 2: influencers in our pocket all day, and there's so much

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Speaker 2: Can I swear on this podcast? Can I say there's

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Speaker 2: so much shit online? Absolutely? Okay, there's so much. You

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Speaker 2: can keep that in. There's so much shit online these

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Speaker 2: days that I think this is so important to pay

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Speaker 2: attention to. From just like a media literacy perspective of

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Speaker 2: you know gone, I think are the days of when

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Speaker 2: I first downloaded Instagram in twenty thirteen, where we were

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Speaker 2: sharing square photos with really terrible filters, just like about

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Speaker 2: our life. I think a lot of these social platforms

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Speaker 2: are propped up by like a financial funnel now, and

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Speaker 2: so just knowing that you're carrying that around in your

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Speaker 2: hand and in your pocket or in your purse all day.

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Speaker 2: And I also think it's important to pay attention to.

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Speaker 2: Like I mentioned before, I think anyone is susceptible to

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Speaker 2: these things, and I think with specifically with wellness influencers

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Speaker 2: quite different than someone who is for example, I don't know,

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Speaker 2: like an your interior designer influencer, your influence to buy

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Speaker 2: a particular I don't know, like blanket or vachure, like

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Speaker 2: while art or something like that doesn't really impact you

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Speaker 2: beyond like a financial aspect, really, But when it comes

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Speaker 2: to wireless influencers, there's the financial component, of course, but

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Speaker 2: there's also like they are playing with your health and

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Speaker 2: your body and your perception of your health, and I

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Speaker 2: think that makes the wellness space the crossover with wondness

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Speaker 2: and influence her culture like quite remarkably different.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I'm glad that you said this, because

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Speaker 1: I do think there's this attitude that none of this

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Speaker 1: stuff really matters. That these health decisions and health choices

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Speaker 1: that folks are making that they're being kind of prompted

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Speaker 1: to make through these influencers. They don't even know that

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Speaker 1: it's the same kind of decision as buy this couch

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Speaker 1: or don't buy this couch. These decisions can be life

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Speaker 1: or death. Just look at Ananda Lewis. Ananda Luis on

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Speaker 1: MTV was one of my idols growing up. She got

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Speaker 1: to talk to young people about news and real issues

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Speaker 1: on MTV and I basically just wanted her job. She's

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Speaker 1: probably one of the reasons why I host this very podcast.

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Speaker 1: Years later, Ananda's mother was diagnosed with breast cancer. Her

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Speaker 1: mom went through mammogram after mammogram, and those screenings do

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Speaker 1: involve some radiation, and yet her mother still developed breast cancer.

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Speaker 1: So Ananda came to believe that the mammograms themselves caused

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Speaker 1: her mom's cancer. So in Ananda's own doctors recommended regular mammograms,

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Speaker 1: she refused, and by the time Ananda's own breast cancer

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Speaker 1: was discovered, it was far more advanced and if she

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Speaker 1: had just had the mammograms. And the irony is that

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Speaker 1: once she was diagnosed, she ended up undergoing pet scans

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Speaker 1: and other procedures that exposed her to even more radiation

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Speaker 1: than the mammograms would have. Ananda followed a lot of

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Speaker 1: wellness claims, like that your body can heal itself through

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Speaker 1: things like cold plunges and diet alone. When her doctors

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Speaker 1: recommended a aseectomy to treat her breast cancer, Ananda once

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Speaker 1: again went against their advice, choosing instead to pursue alternative

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Speaker 1: healing and ridding her body of toxins. She told People Magazine,

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Speaker 1: my plan was to get excessive toxins out of my body.

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Speaker 1: I felt like my body is intelligent. I know that

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Speaker 1: to be true. Our bodies are brilliantly made. Ananda died

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Speaker 1: of breast cancer earlier this year, and she left behind

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Speaker 1: a very young child Before she died. She made a

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Speaker 1: video reflecting on those choices, saying that she regretted not

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Speaker 1: listening to medical science and warned others not to follow

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Speaker 1: her path. In her own words, she said, I decided

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Speaker 1: to keep my tumor and try to work it out

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Speaker 1: of my body a different way. Looking back on that,

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Speaker 1: I go, you know what, maybe I should have. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you're familiar with the mtvvj Ananda Lewis,

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Speaker 1: who passed away recently of breast cancer. I was very

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Speaker 1: moved by her story, and one of the things that

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Speaker 1: she said was that she regretted not listening to medical

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Speaker 1: science and following the guidance of the actual trained health professionals. Instead,

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Speaker 1: she really thought, oh, I can cure things on I

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Speaker 1: own through diets, through homeopathic remedies. And I think that

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Speaker 1: there's this attitude that I'm just this is just a

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Speaker 1: personality branding thing. I do my own thing, and part

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Speaker 1: of that is not listening to doctors when in reality

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Speaker 1: it is life or death. Because she passed away from

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Speaker 1: cancer which would have been treatable had she listened to

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Speaker 1: her doctor, and she really was open about regretting that fact,

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Speaker 1: regretting the fact that she listened to people who maybe

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Speaker 1: didn't actually have her real life and her real health

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Speaker 1: at the forefront of their minds.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I often get asked like so what, like

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Speaker 2: so what somebody wants to buy supplements, like why do

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Speaker 2: you care so much? And my response is usually I

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Speaker 2: think that the best case scenario is that someone just

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Speaker 2: wastes their money. The worst case scenario is that something

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Speaker 2: actually impacts their health in a really negative way, or

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Speaker 2: they're influenced by following particular people online to forego evidence,

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Speaker 2: evidence based treatment when it's really needed. And unfortunately, like

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Speaker 2: you just mentioned this one particular story, there are more

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Speaker 2: and more stories like this coming now out now and

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Speaker 2: like making it to the headlines. And it's so unfortunate,

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Speaker 2: and I don't want to see any more of these stories,

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Speaker 2: but I think we will, And all we can do

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Speaker 2: is like just amplify them and show them that this

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Speaker 2: is actually the real harm of what's happening here.

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Speaker 1: How did we get to a place where folks are

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Speaker 1: more comfortable taking medical advice from some influencer on Instagram

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Speaker 1: rather than an actual medical professional.

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Speaker 2: I think there's probably a few different things from my

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Speaker 2: own observations and like my own brain here, but I

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Speaker 2: think first and foremost, there is like a fairly I

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Speaker 2: think warranted distrust or like complicated relationship with conventional medicine

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Speaker 2: or like western medical doctors. In a lot of the

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Speaker 2: work that I do in observing the wellness space, there

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Speaker 2: are predominantly women sharing stories about how they were dismissed

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Speaker 2: by their doctors. They're said were not taken seriously, and

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Speaker 2: it was that that prompted them to seek out alternatives.

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Speaker 2: And so I do think there are gaps in medicine

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Speaker 2: for sure, Like I don't think anyone who is critical

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Speaker 2: of the wellness space would deny that. I just think

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Speaker 2: that these wellness influencers, they will tell you that they're

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Speaker 2: filling those gaps, but my view is that they're actually

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Speaker 2: exploiting them. And so I think that's one piece of it.

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Speaker 2: And I think another piece of it is if you

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Speaker 2: are navigating something and you go to your doctor and

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Speaker 2: they're talking to you based on evidence and statistics and probability,

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Speaker 2: and there's no one cure or like one piece that

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Speaker 2: will fix everything that makes you feel a particular way.

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Speaker 2: But then you go online and there's an influencer that

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Speaker 2: is speaking in absolutes, where like medical profession very regulated

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Speaker 2: can't speak like that, wellness base unregulated can speak like that.

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Speaker 2: And so if an influencer is telling you that they

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Speaker 2: like for sureseys you know, have this cure that will

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Speaker 2: help you, you're probably more inclined to go with them.

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Speaker 2: I also think too, and I hear this a lot

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Speaker 2: from you know, again, predominantly women. They're like, well, you

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Speaker 2: only get fifteen minutes with your doctor, which I don't

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Speaker 2: know about you, but that's true for me, Like I

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Speaker 2: only get fifteen minutes with my doctor, but they frame

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Speaker 2: this as a negative. That's also if you have access

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Speaker 2: to a doctor in the first place. But these you know,

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Speaker 2: alternative practitioners or influencers will give you much more time

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Speaker 2: and they will claim it's because they care about you

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Speaker 2: more and they will, you know, help you. They will

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Speaker 2: offer to you what will help you, like for sure.

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Speaker 1: And I think that goes back to what you were

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Speaker 1: talking about earlier. Off especially if you're vulnerable, or you're

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Speaker 1: going through something, or you're navigating a health challenge or

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Speaker 1: trying to navigate a health challenge on behalf of a

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Speaker 1: loved one, you are in such a susceptible position. I

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Speaker 1: very recently was caring for my dad before his death,

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Speaker 1: and it was this issue where he had several chronic

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Speaker 1: health issues and he was host like long term hospitalized

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Speaker 1: for many months, and the doctor twice a day, the

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Speaker 1: doctors would do their rounds and come into the ICU

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Speaker 1: room and like talk to me about what was going on,

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Speaker 1: and they what I First of all, what I wanted

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Speaker 1: if those doctors had spent two hours with me, that

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Speaker 1: would not have been enough time. What I wanted was

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Speaker 1: doctors to come in, hold my hand and say, we

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Speaker 1: have figured it out. It turns out it was this

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Speaker 1: one easy thing and he's one hundred percent going to

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Speaker 1: be okay. But I never goot that. What I got

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Speaker 1: was fifteen minutes of very good you know, no shade

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Speaker 1: to the doctors, they were great, but fifteen minutes of

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Speaker 1: being like, oh, well, you know, we asked this problem

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Speaker 1: and that problem and this problem and jargon and words

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Speaker 1: and me having to be like, stop, back up, what

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Speaker 1: does this mean? And it was an incredibly frustrating experience,

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Speaker 1: and in that moment of vulnerability, had an influencer online

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Speaker 1: said I hear you, I see you. The answer is

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Speaker 1: this miracle cure in your dad is going to be fine.

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Speaker 1: I would have absolutely been susceptible to that. It is

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Speaker 1: that that experience has really showed me how these influencers

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Speaker 1: are so good at targeting the very real vulnerabilities that

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Speaker 1: really do exist in.

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Speaker 2: US vulnerabilities and also specifically like right now with tail

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Speaker 2: and all being in the news, but I also had

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Speaker 2: a project earlier this year in January with the fires

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Speaker 2: in La. Wiless influencers are incredibly skilled at leveraging tragedy

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Speaker 2: or crises, whether that's like a personal tragedy, so like

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Speaker 2: you just said, when you're personally like very vulnerable, you

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Speaker 2: or a loved one are navigating something or perhaps a

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Speaker 2: community tragedy, so the city that you live in is

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Speaker 2: on fire. And in that experience or like that, at

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Speaker 2: that time, I was watching observing willless influencers just ready

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Speaker 2: to pitch you their supplements and detoxes for like, if

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Speaker 2: you live in La and you are, you know, breathing

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Speaker 2: in this air, you need to detox and yours a

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Speaker 2: discount God for twenty five percent off. And so I

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Speaker 2: think they are very good at leveraging those feelings around things.

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Speaker 2: And I also think for listeners and maybe you have

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Speaker 2: seen the show as well, The Apple Cider Vinegar on Netflix.

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Speaker 2: It came out this winter. I think that experience that

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Speaker 2: you just described of, you know, this hypothetical alternative practitioner

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Speaker 2: or influencer coming in versus an experience with the Doctor.

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Speaker 2: I think that show did an incredible job depicting those

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Speaker 2: differences for anyone who's familiar with the show. It's based

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Speaker 2: on the true story of Bell Gibson. But I think

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Speaker 2: they did a really good job. Even like you know,

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Speaker 2: the scenes with the Doctor, there is like this blue

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Speaker 2: kind of like filter over top of it. I thought

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Speaker 2: they did a really good job.

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Speaker 1: Are you very institutional, very cold?

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Speaker 2: Yes? Yep, that very like quick timely turned around. That's

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Speaker 2: just the reality I think that a lot of people have.

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Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break at our back. Let's talk

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Speaker 1: about what RFK Junior called his big autism announcement last week,

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Speaker 1: when the Trump administration announced that taking thailanol during pregnancy

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Speaker 1: causes autism. As soon as the administration went public with

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Speaker 1: this claim, wellness scripters were already on it, hockeying supposed

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Speaker 1: thailan al alternatives and supplements online. So you mentioned thailanol,

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Speaker 1: and the Trump administration, as we know, is saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: we've unveiled the cause of autism, and it's Thailand all

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Speaker 1: taking Thailand al while pregnant. Something that you really were

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Speaker 1: on is how these grifters were so on it. People

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Speaker 1: already had their a supplement. It's like, oh, here's if

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Speaker 1: you're not taking thailol anymore, because you're not, you don't

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Speaker 1: want your kid to be autistic, Good on you, mama, bear,

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Speaker 1: take my supplement. How were they on it so fast?

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Speaker 2: It's practiced like it's it's I think it's like rinse

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Speaker 2: and repeat every single time. There is something that feels

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Speaker 2: similar to this, where there is a headline that stokes

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Speaker 2: fear and they have something to sell you. So you're right, Like,

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Speaker 2: within a day I saw influencers selling various supplements, some

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Speaker 2: that are involved in multi level marketing companies, whether that's

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Speaker 2: like alternatives to tile and all that they just so

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Speaker 2: happen to have a discount code for which makes me

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Speaker 2: leave me there. It's so convenient. There's always a financial incentive,

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Speaker 2: it seems, or you know, using a bit of mental

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Speaker 2: gymnastics to somehow promote their supplements that maybe aren't alternatives necessarily,

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Speaker 2: but you still need them in this case. Like it's

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Speaker 2: so quick, and I wasn't even surprised at this point.

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Speaker 2: I was just honestly just waiting for it.

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Speaker 1: For so long. These influencers have been saying, you can't

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Speaker 1: trust the FDA, you can't trust the government. But then

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Speaker 1: they turn around and say, oh, the government just just

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Speaker 1: pointed out this link to tailant all and autism. I

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Speaker 1: take I take that to the bank by my supplement.

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Speaker 1: If you're gonna avoid tilt all. What's going on there?

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Speaker 1: Like that? Does that seem like a switch up at all?

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Speaker 2: I've seen it before. I mean, I think with the

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Speaker 2: tail and all thing too. I've seen a lot of

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Speaker 2: these influencers be like, well, the study was from Harvard,

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, I have a hard time believing that

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Speaker 2: you would take on, you know, belief with every other

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Speaker 2: study that has come out of Harvard, and so why

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Speaker 2: is it this particular one that you're so passionately defending.

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Speaker 2: I also find it really interesting, you know a few

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Speaker 2: years ago, in observing these Wallness influencers, they had this

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Speaker 2: motto of I don't co parent with the government, and

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Speaker 2: they even had like a bunch of merch made and yeah,

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Speaker 2: and the Mama Bears I don't co parent with the government.

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Speaker 2: And now I just sick. Kind of seems like they're

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Speaker 2: really keen to co parent with the government, and I'm like,

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Speaker 2: where's that merch gone? Like what are we doing here?

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Speaker 2: So yeah, I think that like their switch up is

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Speaker 2: pretty predictable. A number of years ago, I was tracking

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Speaker 2: influencers who were selling a frequency medicine device through again

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Speaker 2: a multi level marketing company, and one of their pieces

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Speaker 2: of marketing in promoting that opportunity and that device was

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Speaker 2: that it was FDA cleared, which is obviously different than

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Speaker 2: FDA approved, But they were using that as a proof

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Speaker 2: point of why you should buy it. But then on

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Speaker 2: their own socials, like within the same day, sometimes they

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Speaker 2: would turn around and make a video talking about how

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Speaker 2: you can't trust the FDA, vaccines, masks, all this kind

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Speaker 2: of stuff, and it's like, but just a second, you

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Speaker 2: just used the FDA to promote this thing you're trying

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Speaker 2: to sell. So I think it will always be confusing

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Speaker 2: and self serving.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the FDA is good when it benefits me in

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Speaker 1: my marketing. It's bad when it doesn't.

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Speaker 2: That's literally always what it is.

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Speaker 1: And about that Harvard study, I wanted to bring in

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Speaker 1: our producer, Mike, because Mike is a scientist.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I'm not a medical doctor, but as

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Speaker 3: a scientist, I did want to weigh in about the

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Speaker 3: quality of that piece of alleged evidence from Harvard that

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Speaker 3: the administration and MAHA people keep pointing to to support

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Speaker 3: these dubious claims about talentanol and autism. For one thing,

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Speaker 3: it was not a new study out of Harvard. It

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Speaker 3: was a review paper, which will be fine. There's nothing

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Speaker 3: wrong with the review papers, except this one has been

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Speaker 3: criticized for leaving out important studies. The senior author, doctor

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Speaker 3: Andrea Baccarelli, who is dean of faculty at Harvard THH.

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Speaker 3: Chan School of Public Health, has previously been paid to

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Speaker 3: testify in support of an association of talent al with autism,

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Speaker 3: and so the review has been criticized both for its

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Speaker 3: methodology and for having that conflict of interest. But even

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Speaker 3: if we set those concerns aside, the paper itself does

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Speaker 3: not claim that Thailand all causes autism. I think this

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Speaker 3: is an important point for this piece of evidence that

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Speaker 3: is supposed to be supporting that because it doesn't say that.

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Speaker 3: It goes out of its way to not say that.

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Speaker 3: It reports finding an association, which is very different from

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Speaker 3: a causal connections. You know, our listeners are pretty savvy folk,

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Speaker 3: and so I'm guessing they've heard the phrase correlation doesn't

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Speaker 3: equal causation, and I think that caution very much applies here.

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Speaker 3: There are many, many reasons that an association might exist

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Speaker 3: if it does other than a causal connection. And this

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Speaker 3: isn't just my opinion. I've seen a lot of takes

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Speaker 3: over the past week from important, respected public health officials

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Speaker 3: saying similar things. Tom Frieden, the former director of the CDC,

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Speaker 3: published a long post on LinkedIn reiterating that tailand all

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Speaker 3: is safe. The balance of evidence suggests pretty clearly that

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Speaker 3: it is. Doctor zay and Lu, professor at the Yale

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Speaker 3: School of Public Health, gave an interview in which he

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Speaker 3: reiterated that there is no proven causal relationship between tail

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Speaker 3: and all and autism, and so the balance of evidence

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Speaker 3: is pretty clear here. And it's really unfortunate that because

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Speaker 3: the author of that one review paper is from Harvard,

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Speaker 3: it's giving the MAHA crowd license to run with the

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Speaker 3: Harvard name and make their unsupported claims seem weightier than

432
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,159
Speaker 3: they are, even though they're claiming things that the study

433
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 3: itself does not say. And it's also unfortunate that that

434
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 3: same researcher has taken payment for his testimony, because that

435
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,400
Speaker 3: raises questions, I think about the independence of the research

436
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 3: and potential conflict of interest. Did he really need the

437
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,439
Speaker 3: money that badly? You know, I don't know. But the

438
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 3: whole thing fits awfully, neatly into this same pseudoscience grifter

439
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,919
Speaker 3: model that we've been talking about. Sometimes it feels like

440
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,120
Speaker 3: the grift goes all the way up. And again, I'm

441
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 3: not a medical doctor and this isn't my area of expertise,

442
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 3: but as a researcher and a consumer of science, I

443
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:08,399
Speaker 3: wanted to offer that perspective and just make sure that

444
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,679
Speaker 3: all of our listeners know that the vast majority of

445
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 3: people who are medical doctors and who do specialize in

446
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:19,160
Speaker 3: this topic agree that tail and all is safe.

447
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:21,879
Speaker 1: And it goes back to what Mallory was just saying

448
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: about how association with an institution like Harvard or a

449
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 1: study or something like that, it's good when it benefits me,

450
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,639
Speaker 1: but other times, oh, you can't trust those institutions, they

451
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 1: don't know what they're talking about. You going to trust

452
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:34,439
Speaker 1: the government totally.

453
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 2: And I also think too like a part of this

454
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,880
Speaker 2: now playing into like the social media and the technology part,

455
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 2: Like we're living in an age where your belief systems

456
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 2: are broadcast online for everyone to see, and oftentimes these

457
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:51,879
Speaker 2: influencers have thousands, tens, hundreds of thousands, up to a

458
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 2: million followers, And I just all I think about sometimes

459
00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 2: is like, how hard would it be for you to

460
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,920
Speaker 2: admit that you were wrong or that you changed your

461
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 2: mind when you have all of these folks following you

462
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 2: and paying you in a lot of ways? Probably, And

463
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 2: it reminds me of something that I read in a

464
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 2: book called How to Talk to a Science Denier by

465
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 2: Lee McIntyre, which I recommend, love, I love it and

466
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 2: I always recommend it. But he talks about this idea

467
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,199
Speaker 2: of asking someone about any particular belief that they have,

468
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 2: what information would make you change your mind? Because if

469
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 2: the answer is nothing, first of all, you're about to

470
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 2: have a very unproductive conversation. But like, second of all,

471
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 2: what does that say to you about your belief system

472
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 2: that if nothing could change your mind? That sounds pretty

473
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:45,160
Speaker 2: closed minded and just not I mean, like I see

474
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 2: things through like evidence and science and really support that,

475
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 2: and other people don't. And I understand that. But I

476
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,159
Speaker 2: just think in terms of like having a conversation with someone,

477
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 2: especially me and my comment section, like just getting a

478
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,159
Speaker 2: gauged for like good faith conversations. I always like to

479
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 2: start with something like that because if the answer is nothing,

480
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 2: then I don't really know what we're doing here.

481
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 1: You know, when you post your content on social media

482
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 1: about the wellness space, what kind of conments are you getting?

483
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 2: You know, It's funny. I've been creating content for a

484
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,360
Speaker 2: few years now. My following has grown. I actually got

485
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,640
Speaker 2: a lot more pushback and hate when I had an

486
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 2: incredibly small following, like less than five thousand followers than

487
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 2: I do now. Sometimes I'll have videos end up on

488
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 2: the wrong side of the algorithm, and that will elicit

489
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 2: what I think are a lot of like bought comments,

490
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 2: because they're all the same. They hate my dangs, they

491
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 2: hate my nose ring, I have tattoos, I have pronouns,

492
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 2: I look vaccinated. It's predictable. It's all the same stuff,

493
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 2: and it's nothing that I don't already know about.

494
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 1: Myself, but I know I have beags.

495
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I got them trimmed. I know that I know

496
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,120
Speaker 2: I have my nose ring. I paid for that, and

497
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 2: so it is one of those things where I think

498
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 2: the algorithm is driving alive.

499
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 1: Now.

500
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,919
Speaker 2: I also know, because I have my followers send me

501
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,399
Speaker 2: videos that I cannot see, that I have been preemptively

502
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 2: blocked by a lot of influencers who I've never heard

503
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 2: of before. And so I think there was probably some

504
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 2: sort of Mallory memo that went around continues to go

505
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 2: around at some point.

506
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, how does that make you feel?

507
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:19,439
Speaker 1: Pretty?

508
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 2: Like not terrible?

509
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 1: To be honest, I was gonna say, you're like the

510
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: like Omar from the Wire, but for the wellness space

511
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 1: of like watch out for Mallory. If she gets you,

512
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 1: she's gonna blow your cunt up and point out all

513
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 1: the ways that it's a grift.

514
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,959
Speaker 2: I also, like have rarely had folks who I have

515
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 2: included in my videos have a what I would describe

516
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 2: as a productive conversation, like I'm not going to make

517
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 2: a video unless it's like pretty. I feel pretty good

518
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 2: about it, and there's not a lot of wiggle room

519
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 2: for you know, them to be like, actually, like, I

520
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 2: will collect content and feel really good about something before

521
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 2: I publish it to the Internet, and so oftentimes if

522
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 2: those folks come across my content, I think they just

523
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 2: block me. I don't think that they engage in conversation

524
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 2: or try to. Very often, I have gotten a lot of,

525
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 2: you know, very empty legal threats where they're like, that's defamation,

526
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 2: and I'm like, I don't think so.

527
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 1: When the Trump administration announced that kilol during pregnancy was

528
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: supposedly linked to autism, pregnant women pushed back hard because

529
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: here's the thing right now, thy lil is pretty much

530
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 1: the only safe option for pain relief during pregnancy. It's

531
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 1: what doctors recommend. So of course women started speaking up.

532
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 1: They were saying, look, I'm going to keep following the

533
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 1: advice of my doctor, and I'm going to take tilamal

534
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 1: for pain if I need it. But here's where the

535
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 1: social media outrage machine kicks in. That very reasonable, measured

536
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 1: pushback suddenly gets spun into something kind of wild online.

537
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 1: It morphed into this completely fabricated story that pregnant liberal

538
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: women hate Trump and RFK Junior so much they're filming

539
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 1: themselves overdosing on Thilo mal in mass just to spite

540
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 1: him and winding up in the hospital. Now that's not

541
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: really what's happening, obviously, But this is how misinformation spreads.

542
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 1: Take a kernel of truth, twist it, blow it up,

543
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 1: and suddenly becomes a viral culture war talking point. Do

544
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:20,719
Speaker 1: you see outrage marketing or outrage culture and weaponizing and

545
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 1: sploiting outrage online as part of this, because sometimes I'll

546
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: see well, miss influencers saying things and doing things. I

547
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 1: think you are saying this because you want to get

548
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 1: people riled up, because you know that it's going to

549
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: have a positive impact on your engagement. Is this something

550
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: that you see it all while looking at this kind

551
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 1: of content.

552
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely all the time. I mean, I have another

553
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 2: thing that I can talk about. But because Thailand All

554
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 2: is so topical right now, you may have seen there's

555
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 2: a number of conservative content creators who are outraged by

556
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 2: this Thailand All a TikTok trend where apparently pregnant liberal

557
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 2: women are guzzling Thailand All on TikTok as some sort

558
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 2: of gotcha to Trump and RFK Junior The Cut reported

559
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 2: and this is my own observation as well, that that's

560
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 2: not actually happening. There's a handful of you know, women

561
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 2: who are trolling on TikTok. It's the same I don't know,

562
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,719
Speaker 2: like four to five tiktoks that these conservative content creators

563
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 2: are clipping, I think, and they're taking a single tile

564
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 2: in all on camera. And I just think that if

565
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,479
Speaker 2: this TikTok trend was actually happening where you know, pregnant

566
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 2: liberal women were taking Thailand all by the fistfuls, that

567
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 2: they would be including those videos instead. And I just

568
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 2: haven't seen them. And so you want to talk about

569
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 2: like driving engagement and outrage, I think that's a perfect example.

570
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 2: I have seen tenfold more videos in response to this

571
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 2: alleged trend than I have actual videos that would be

572
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 2: a part of this trend.

573
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, not only would you like see more of those

574
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 3: women guzzling handfuls of fellow, but they would be showing

575
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 3: up in emergency rooms with like liver failure.

576
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, there is a particular woman. She is the

577
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 2: founder and executive director of American Frontline Nurses. She is

578
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 2: alleging that she received a phone call about, oh, these

579
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 2: redoces are happening and people are in hospitals. I have

580
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 2: not seen any reporting on this, and I think that

581
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 2: if it was inspired by a TikTok trend, Unfortunately, like

582
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 2: harms from TikTok trends, fatalities from TikTok trends has been

583
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 2: reported on before. Unfortunately, that's something that has happened, and

584
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 2: so you know, if this does get reported on, I

585
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 2: will eat my words. But for now, I haven't seen anything,

586
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 2: and I do think in my personal opinion at this point,

587
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 2: I do think it is to drive engagement and that

588
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 2: outrage aside from Thailand, although like I think another really

589
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 2: good example beyond outrage, I think algorithms really favor content

590
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 2: that is extreme, and so even in videos that I stitch,

591
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 2: there are certain videos that I come across where I'm like,

592
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 2: it doesn't even matter what I say or what I do,

593
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 2: this video is going to take off because what this

594
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 2: influencer has portrayed or said is so extreme. And I

595
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 2: think I've covered parasite cleanses before, and I think that's

596
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 2: a really good example of these folks who have these

597
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 2: cleanses to sell you. They can't just say take my

598
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 2: cleans and you'll feel better. They have to say you're

599
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 2: filled with worms. Everyone is it's the root of all disease,

600
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 2: and doctors are lying and the government is suppressing it,

601
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 2: and so you need to buy my tincture in detox

602
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 2: three to four times a year. And also, here's one

603
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 2: hundred photos of people's poop with like alleged parasites in them. Meanwhile,

604
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 2: medical professionals are coming out and saying, actually, like, those

605
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 2: aren't parasites. It's undigested food matter, maybe undetermined matter, or

606
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 2: also maybe the lining of your own intestines. But they're like, Nope,

607
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 2: it's worms. And the government's lying to us. And that's

608
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 2: the extreme claim that they use to push their supplements

609
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 2: because you can't really sell stuff being like I made

610
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 2: this thing in my back shed and I think it'll

611
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 2: make you feel better.

612
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 1: I also think there's just no comparison, Like the people

613
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 1: who are saying it's worms are definitely selling the more

614
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 1: compelling story. What what Like For sure, yeah, I could

615
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: sort of understand why, oh my poop looks like that

616
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 1: because I have undigested food matter in it maybe and

617
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,280
Speaker 1: not because I'm actually full of secret worms. But government

618
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: is lying to me about I can understand why a

619
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: certain kind of person is always going to go with

620
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:17,800
Speaker 1: the more compelling story.

621
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially when they have something to sell and they're like,

622
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 2: I had no idea I had this many worms in me,

623
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 2: and like you probably do too, and here's my discount code.

624
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 2: Like there was one woman who was I think, financially

625
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 2: tied to a particular product that on its own website

626
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 2: does not describe itself as a parasite clons, but on

627
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 2: social media she would describe it that way, and she

628
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 2: claimed that in I think it was sixty days that

629
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,840
Speaker 2: she shit out like eight hundred worms, And I'm like,

630
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 2: first of all, who is counting? Second of all, how

631
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:52,280
Speaker 2: did you care? That works absurd? Like who is believed?

632
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 2: But people are believing it. And so I think there's that,

633
00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 2: like the conspiracy element is compelling, and the you you

634
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 2: don't know this about your body, but I'm telling you

635
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 2: because I have privileged knowledge, Like that's really compelling to

636
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 2: There's also.

637
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 3: I think a little bit of like the truth is

638
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:10,839
Speaker 3: in the middle here, Like oh my god, she's saying

639
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 3: I had eight hundred worms. That's probably extreme, but like

640
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,439
Speaker 3: maybe I have two hundred that's still bad.

641
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 2: Mm totally yeah, And like also there's a weave of

642
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 2: truth in a lot of these wellness things, so they

643
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 2: parasites and worms exist for sure. I don't think anyone

644
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 2: is denying that they don't. But it's this idea that

645
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 2: everyone has them. It doesn't matter where you've traveled too,

646
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 2: and you're being lied to by the medical system, but

647
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 2: you can trust me a random woman on TikTok who

648
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 2: has a cleanse to sell you.

649
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:46,359
Speaker 1: And I do think that part of this is, I guess,

650
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 1: a reaction to feeling out of control, you know, I

651
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 1: if I I almost wonder if this is why RFK

652
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 1: when he first got into office, when it, you know,

653
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 1: is a big thing, was I'm going to eventually I'm

654
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,240
Speaker 1: gonna do a countdown to what I unveil the cause

655
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 1: of autism. I feel like it's exploiting parents who have

656
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 1: concerns about their kid, right, and I wonder if those

657
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 1: parents feel out of control and so by telling them like, oh,

658
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:17,359
Speaker 1: here's the thing, here is the thing that you need

659
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 1: to avoid, that will the old one hundred percent make

660
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 1: it so that you don't have to worry that your

661
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 1: kid might have autism? People are going to jump on that.

662
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:27,280
Speaker 1: I feel like it's Oftentimes the causes of health issues

663
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 1: are systemic or institutional or we don't know a ton

664
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 1: about them, or they have no easy fix and that

665
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 1: people can just fill that fill that space with a

666
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 1: bunk because of it.

667
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 2: Totally. Yeah, I think well in terms of like the

668
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 2: autism announcement. I know, so I'm a correspondent for the

669
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:48,319
Speaker 2: Conspiratuality podcast and after the election, the American election because

670
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 2: I'm Canadian and so I see all this like very

671
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 2: like just watch observing from the side. But after the

672
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,240
Speaker 2: American election in November, we did an episode called Maha Mamas.

673
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 2: I was just looking to that, yes, and so it

674
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 2: was very much so You're right, like I think very strategic,

675
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 2: Like there are these mothers who are concerned, They are

676
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 2: you know, looking to RFK Junior. They like what he

677
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 2: stands for. They may have not voted for Trump otherwise,

678
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 2: but as soon as they you know, partnered together or

679
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 2: RFK Junior was endorsed, that pushed these women to you know,

680
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 2: maybe vote in that way. And I think it's a

681
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:28,760
Speaker 2: lot easier to digest saying I'm voting for making America

682
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 2: healthy again than I'm voting for like the convicted felon.

683
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:35,839
Speaker 2: So I think that that was these like very real

684
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 2: I think concerns that mothers have and questions and you know,

685
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 2: these things that they feel very deeply and are very valid.

686
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 2: I think that that was leveraged in a very strategic way.

687
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 2: And in terms of the out of control feeling, I

688
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 2: mean I only started really observing this space during the pandemic.

689
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 2: But you know, as someone with a fitness background, I

690
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 2: used to be a fitness instructor, these things were never

691
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 2: talked about in these spaces. It was just it was science,

692
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 2: like fitness and health is a science, and so that's

693
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 2: how we spoke about these things. And it wasn't until

694
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 2: the pandemic where I saw a number of my fitness

695
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 2: peers sharing conspiratorial content and I was like, what is

696
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 2: happening here and just seeing a lot of folks really

697
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 2: fall into conspiratorial thinking, I think as a result of

698
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 2: feeling out of control. And it's nice to have or

699
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,360
Speaker 2: at length, to feel like you have knowledge and you

700
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 2: know what's happening for sure, and you know what is

701
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 2: causing what, even if that's not substantiated, it makes you

702
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 2: feel better and like in more control.

703
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I noticed the same thing. I mean, do you

704
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,839
Speaker 1: think it was the feeling of lack of control? And

705
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 1: fear and not knowing what was going on that we

706
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 1: all experienced during the pandemic. Do you think that was

707
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 1: what was driving this change?

708
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 2: I think a lot of it. Like in my own observation,

709
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 2: I'm like, they're so and again only started tracking for

710
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 2: my own content during the pandemic, and so I can't

711
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 2: really compare it to pre pandemic, But like it does

712
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,840
Speaker 2: seem even just as someone who digests news and is

713
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 2: like on the internet every day, like it does seem

714
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,920
Speaker 2: so much more amplified than it ever was. And I

715
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 2: think that there are folks even you know, that I

716
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 2: work with and they're like, oh, I don't need a

717
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 2: parasite cleanse, And I'm like, you're not someone who strikes

718
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 2: me as someone who would think that you do. And

719
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 2: I think that we're just in a place now where

720
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 2: we don't really know what to believe. There's so much online.

721
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 1: And the way that these algorithms get you when so

722
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 1: like I also like fitness, I enjoy yoga, I enjoy weightlifting,

723
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,840
Speaker 1: and trying to use the internet to get information about

724
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 1: these two which should be like fairly commonplace interests. It's

725
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 1: like the algorithm says, oh, you're into weightlifting. Huh, you're

726
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 1: trying to eat more protein. Huh, well, certainly seed oil

727
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 1: it's got to get those out of the mix. Huh. Right,

728
00:39:57,600 --> 00:39:59,760
Speaker 1: certainly you don't want to be vaccinating your family.

729
00:39:59,840 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 2: Right.

730
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 1: The way that when you just have this one interest

731
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 1: that whatever algorithm has decided, oh well, then you probably

732
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 1: feel x about seed oils X about vaccines. The way

733
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 1: it's sort of done as a digital package deal, I

734
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 1: think is really insidious totally.

735
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 2: There's this phrase called crank magnetism, and it's this idea

736
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 2: that science deniers or conspiracy theorists often don't believe one

737
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:28,439
Speaker 2: wrong thing, they believe many wrong things. And so if

738
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 2: you are already in the anti vaccine camp, you are

739
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 2: more likely to believe that sunscreen is actually causing cancer

740
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 2: and not the sun. And you are now also more

741
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 2: likely to like homeschool your children, and you are more

742
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 2: likely and like just it becomes like you said, a

743
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 2: package deal, where it's like you kind of believe this

744
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 2: one thing, and it's usually not just that one thing.

745
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 2: And especially when you're following influencers, like if you follow

746
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 2: a particular like homesteading influencer, because you have an interest

747
00:40:58,080 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 2: in that, you are now all of a sudden fed

748
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 2: you know, anti vax or you should be using tallow

749
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:04,760
Speaker 2: instead of sunscreen stuff.

750
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:20,839
Speaker 1: More. After a quick break, let's get right back into it.

751
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,320
Speaker 1: Women are the primary health decision makers for their families,

752
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: and people like RFK Junior know it. That's why targeting women,

753
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 1: especially moms, with health misinformation is so powerful. Enter the

754
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 1: Mama bears, the moms who say that they are the

755
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 1: only things standing between their kids and industries full of corruption.

756
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 1: It seems to me that sort of the connecting thread

757
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 1: on some of this is, as you alluded to earlier,

758
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 1: not just women, but moms, Maha moms, they call themselves

759
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 1: mama bears. How has moms and motherhood? How has that

760
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 1: kind of been the Maha secret weapon?

761
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:03,280
Speaker 2: Like when I did the Conspiratuality episode, it was really

762
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:06,320
Speaker 2: just an observation of like how folks who were already

763
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 2: in the Maha sphere were calling on mothers to be

764
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:16,439
Speaker 2: engaged and be interested and vote a particular way, and

765
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 2: so you know, they would never say it was strategic,

766
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:22,800
Speaker 2: but it certainly was. Like in the episode, I referenced

767
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 2: RFK Junior's website and how he sold merch that referenced

768
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 2: like mahamas, mahammas. But there was no like dad equivalent,

769
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 2: like Dad's got t shirts about I don't know, I

770
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 2: forget now, but like probably not eating sale oil steak

771
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,840
Speaker 2: in Tallo, yeah, make tallow Grady. I forget, but it

772
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,480
Speaker 2: was probably something really ridiculous like that. And I'm like, oh,

773
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,359
Speaker 2: it seems really intentional from a merch perspective anyway, which

774
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,399
Speaker 2: maybe some might see as you know, not significant enough,

775
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,719
Speaker 2: but I certainly do because merch now you can see

776
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:55,840
Speaker 2: it as like identity. You wear it around, this is

777
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 2: who you are, and if you're wearing merch that says

778
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 2: maha mamas, that is who you're identifying as. And I

779
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 2: think so it was absolutely strategic I think on their

780
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 2: part to pull on mothers, and Kelly means even how

781
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,280
Speaker 2: to tweet their references. In the episode where he calls

782
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 2: on mothers and a woman responds to him and says, well,

783
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:16,840
Speaker 2: I'm not a mother, Like what did you mean by this?

784
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 2: And he's like, oh, nothing like It's like no, I

785
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 2: think it was actually something. It's just it would be

786
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 2: harder to digest if you actually called it what it was.

787
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think you're so spot on that for

788
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:32,360
Speaker 1: a lot of these people. I can't remember the I

789
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 1: that might have been the influencer. There's an influencer that

790
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 1: you that you hear from in that episode where she

791
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 1: talks about how, oh, generally I'm in the middle of

792
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 1: the road politically, and you might even say that I

793
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 1: lean more toward Democrats, but I am happy that Trump

794
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 1: is in the White House because I am I want

795
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 1: to make America healthy again. I am one hundred percent

796
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 1: on board for that. I do think that a lot

797
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 1: of these moms might have a harder time getting behind

798
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 1: somebody like Donald Trump, but then would say like, oh, well,

799
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,320
Speaker 1: I didn't vote for all the trumpy stuff. I voted

800
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 1: for the health stuff with the RFK. Is that what's

801
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 1: going on?

802
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,240
Speaker 2: I mean, that's my observation for sure, and I certainly

803
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 2: think again, in my observation, there seems as time passes

804
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 2: to be a really big difference between upper case make

805
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 2: America healthy again and lowercase make America healthy like it's

806
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 2: a movement, not necessarily this like more of like a

807
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 2: conceptual idea of like there are My understanding is, you know,

808
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,280
Speaker 2: there are folks who are always trying to make America healthy.

809
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 2: But it's this very particular politically motivated movement.

810
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 1: And I will say thank god I listened to the

811
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 1: Conspiratuality podcast, because obviously there's nothing about this administration that

812
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 1: I'm that I am for. But I caught myself saying

813
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,719
Speaker 1: the thing that some of those influencers say, which is, well,

814
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:51,279
Speaker 1: I don't agreeing with the administration, but you know, there

815
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,840
Speaker 1: are some things that RFK is trying to do that

816
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 1: I'm aligned with. And I said that about the ideas

817
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 1: of removing or banning food dies. Then I listened to

818
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 1: the Conspiratuality podcast about it. Come to find out, this

819
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 1: motherfucker it wasn't even a band. It was a how

820
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 1: did they put it, It was a voluntary understanding that

821
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:15,400
Speaker 1: these companies were going to remove some dies with no

822
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 1: kind of enforcement mechanisms. And I'm saying, I literally from

823
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 1: my mouth, was like, well, this administration can't do anything right,

824
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 1: but at least they're trying to ban these food dies.

825
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:26,840
Speaker 1: It was never even a ban. I cannot believe how

826
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 1: effective it was at getting into even the consciousness of

827
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 1: somebody like me who can't stand any of this administration,

828
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 1: that oh, well, there are some good things they're doing

829
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 1: that when you actually look at what they've done.

830
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:41,439
Speaker 2: It's actually a lot of smoke and mirrors, totally. Yeah,

831
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 2: and like I'm far from an expert on any of that,

832
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 2: but the creators that I follow who are experts, are

833
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 2: calling it just a mirror distraction from issues that really matter,

834
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:54,840
Speaker 2: and a distraction so that you look away from various

835
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:58,240
Speaker 2: cuts in funding that are happening in the same administration.

836
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:00,920
Speaker 1: And the ways that our health is being sort of

837
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 1: given over to Charlatan's and private companies that might have

838
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 1: friendly and cozy relationships with the administration. They made a

839
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 1: really good point. I swear I'll stop like plus plussing

840
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 1: the Conspiratuality podcast.

841
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 2: Conspirituality.

842
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:15,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is one of my favorite podcasts, Like I

843
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:17,520
Speaker 1: remember what you'd be listening to it, And I almost

844
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 1: never recommend other podcasts on this show because if if

845
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 1: you gave you open the door to that, I would

846
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:24,920
Speaker 1: the whole podcast episode would be my rex. But if

847
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:27,759
Speaker 1: there was one show that I would suggest folks listen

848
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:30,400
Speaker 1: to you to understand this, it would be Conspirratuality and

849
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 1: the ways that like people who own private testing company

850
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 1: so you know it's so it's not me going to

851
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:40,760
Speaker 1: my doctor or going to an actual clinic and getting

852
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,120
Speaker 1: testing done, having that testing being covered by insurance and

853
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 1: all of that. It's no spend five hundred dollars out

854
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 1: of pocket for this private company that runs tests that

855
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:52,239
Speaker 1: will tell you the same thing week. It won't that

856
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 1: my buddy owns all of that. I mean, I just

857
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 1: never realized how much all of this is just the

858
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:01,360
Speaker 1: same old crony politics being repackaged as something that is

859
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:02,320
Speaker 1: good for us.

860
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 2: And I think that speaks to the very real gaps

861
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:09,399
Speaker 2: in like the American medical system. And oftentimes I think

862
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 2: with those companies that you're talking about that conspiratuality often

863
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:14,360
Speaker 2: talks about, is it's not just these tests that you

864
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 2: pay out of pocket for, it's also the supplements that

865
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 2: they recommend after that their own company owns.

866
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:23,759
Speaker 1: Often Yeah, I mean, I guess my big question of

867
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:28,360
Speaker 1: this is we are people who are health conscious. We

868
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,760
Speaker 1: care about our health, we care about fitness and wellness.

869
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:34,279
Speaker 1: I use guasha, I drink mushroom coffee, all kinds of

870
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:36,880
Speaker 1: weird little things that I'm sure I'm wasting my money on.

871
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 1: I do and it makes me feel warm fuzzies, and

872
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:43,360
Speaker 1: that's that. Are there ways to be interested in these things?

873
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 1: And into these things without it leading into a more dangerous,

874
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 1: sometimes extremistic pipeline, Like, is there a way to be

875
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 1: interested in these sort of alternative health practices but be

876
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 1: sane and safe about it, especially online?

877
00:47:57,960 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think there's probably a lot of

878
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:03,400
Speaker 2: folks out there who have tips on this, but like

879
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 2: my own opinion is just to like constantly be checking

880
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 2: in with yourself. There are people online who are acting

881
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:15,760
Speaker 2: in various nefarious ways to get you to believe something.

882
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:19,280
Speaker 2: Like I said before, you know, with certain other niches

883
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 2: of influencers, they do not need you to change your

884
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:26,240
Speaker 2: entire belief system in order to influence you to buy something.

885
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:29,799
Speaker 2: But the wellness space is encroaching more and more on

886
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:32,919
Speaker 2: that where they're not just selling you brands, they're selling

887
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 2: you belief systems and so checking in with yourself. I

888
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 2: think it's totally okay to participate in things that you know,

889
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:44,400
Speaker 2: like the mushroom coffee not totally my thing, but if

890
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 2: you like it, then why wouldn't you just do it?

891
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:49,839
Speaker 2: That's fine, I think, but where did you hear it?

892
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:52,960
Speaker 2: Who did you hear it from? What are your motivations

893
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:58,360
Speaker 2: around continuing a particular practice? Is there a pipeline that

894
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 2: exists around this particular path that could have you going

895
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 2: further down into something.

896
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 1: I know.

897
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 2: Derek Burris, who is one of the co hosts of

898
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 2: the Conspiratuality podcasts. He recently worked with The New York

899
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 2: Times on a video that talks about a funnel but

900
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:14,800
Speaker 2: it is happening that they've identified where it takes someone

901
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:19,239
Speaker 2: from being helf conscious, following these particular influencers all the

902
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 2: way down to rejecting medicine and holding this conspiracy theory

903
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:28,279
Speaker 2: that the healthcare system is like knowingly harming people to

904
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 2: keep them sick and make money. And I think that this,

905
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 2: you know, video really depicts that well around like you

906
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:38,880
Speaker 2: can have these like scrunchy I think that's a phrase

907
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 2: that's online where it's like kind of crunchy, these you know,

908
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:47,440
Speaker 2: lifestyles and these practices and just checking in with yourself

909
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 2: around like how you might be falling down a particular

910
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 2: pipeline or funnel.

911
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or

912
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:00,880
Speaker 1: just want to say hi, we just said hello at

913
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:03,600
Speaker 1: tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's

914
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 1: episode at tengodi dot com. There are no girls on

915
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:08,400
Speaker 1: the Internet was created by me bridget Tod. It's a

916
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:11,799
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed creative. Jonathan Strickland is our

917
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 1: executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer.

918
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 1: Michael Almato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, bridget Todd.

919
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:21,400
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920
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:25,040
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921
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Speaker 1: out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

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Speaker 1: your podcasts