1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You. From House to 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: works dot Com. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:17,319 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, and today we are going to 4 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: talk about fashion. More specifically, we're going to talk about 5 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: that fat ship yeah, which is an actual um kind 6 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: of online community of women who are interested in fashion, 7 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: whether that's buying clothes, looking at clothes, curating images of clothes, um. 8 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 1: But they also happened to be plus size yeah. Fachion 9 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: is a mash up, obviously, of the words fat and fashion. 10 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: And while fat shon might sound like a bit of 11 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: an insult, I know the first time I ran across 12 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: it was in a New York Times headline, I was like, 13 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:58,279 Speaker 1: WHOA is this okay? I don't know, but no, it's 14 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: very much okay. They fatch mesas where that label as 15 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 1: a badge of pride. Because one of the coolest things 16 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: about fashion and the fashion community, or we could say 17 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:16,279 Speaker 1: plus size fashion bloggers, is that it's not about plus 18 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:20,040 Speaker 1: size being some phase that they're moving through on their 19 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: way to being runway thin. It's their bodies and they 20 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: embrace it and they want to dress them beautifully in 21 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: ways that make them feel great. Yeah, exactly. They're not 22 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: trying to just buy cheaply made, you know, junkie clothes 23 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: because they're on some journey to lose however much weight. 24 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:45,040 Speaker 1: They want to, like you said, dress their bodies in 25 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: a way that is both comfortable and fashionable and fun 26 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: for them. And not surprisingly, this fashion conversation is going 27 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: to get political because, as came up when we were 28 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: talking in a recent podcast on when women began wearing pants, 29 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: clothes are usually not merely clothes. Clothes are often loaded garments, 30 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: and in this case, Fetchion intersects a lot with the 31 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 1: fat acceptance movement, with healthy at any size, and with 32 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: women making radical political statements with their bodies by wearing 33 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: what they want to wear. Exactly. Yeah, I won't be 34 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 1: contained to a move move from Lane Bryant, you know, 35 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:30,360 Speaker 1: like I won't wear just something that you think I 36 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: should hide my body in. I want to actually have 37 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,359 Speaker 1: fun with fashion. Yeah, And just to kind of kick 38 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: things off, I wanted to read a quote from a 39 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 1: study on the retail market and fat sinistas by Diane 40 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: scar Boto and Eileen Fisher, and they write that given 41 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: the widespread stigmatization of fat bodies, it isn't surprising that 42 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:57,239 Speaker 1: the consumer segment least attractive to marketers in this aesthetically 43 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:03,920 Speaker 1: oriented industry would be consumers who's body society typically deemed unattractive. 44 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,519 Speaker 1: And so in this way, from the get go, this 45 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:13,079 Speaker 1: plus size fashion blogging i e. Faction is inherently political 46 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: and radical, even though I mean, the whole irony of 47 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 1: this is that of female retail consumers in the US 48 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 1: require plus sizes, and the average female body in the 49 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 1: United States is what would be considered plus, so plus 50 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: is actually average, right, but not in the eyes of 51 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: high fashion designers. Well right, I mean they just act 52 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: as if women over a certain size don't exist, right. So, 53 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: but that is where that fat acceptance movement kind of 54 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: stems from. That, that politicization of both size and clothing, 55 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: and the thing that we're talking about today is more 56 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: focusing on that fashion aspect. And that transition from kind 57 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: of activism to just writing about fashion and kind of 58 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: reveling in aesthetics has sort of left some of the 59 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: original kind of fat activists and fat shinista creators a 60 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: little irritated, you could say, yeah, because in the development 61 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:18,359 Speaker 1: of this faction community that really took off online. We 62 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 1: now have a faction spectrum ranging the radical political to 63 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 1: the more purely esthetically driven. And so on December three, 64 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: two thousand four, we have a launch of fat Shinista, 65 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: which is a live journal community that was started by 66 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: a woman named Amanda Piasecki who was a queer fat 67 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: activist from San Francisco, UM and she started as a 68 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 1: support community and a place to exchange fashion tips on 69 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: finding out how to get a cool looking plus sized 70 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 1: clothes that weren't necessarily from Lane Bryant. Right, and speaking 71 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: of clothes that aren't necessarily from Lane Bryant, this was 72 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:03,919 Speaker 1: the same year that Carl Lagerfeld got publicly in the 73 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 1: press very tackily if that's a word, it's not a 74 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: word upset when H and M wanted to expand his 75 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: special collaboration line to include plus sizes and Carl Lagerfeld, 76 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: that should be pointed out, used to be a bigger gentleman. Yeah, 77 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: and he's snarkily told Vogue UK that what I designed 78 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: was fashion for slender and slim people. I'm glad he 79 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 1: pulled out some synonyms for then, ye, slender and slim 80 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 1: just keep going, just slender and slim people. Right, And 81 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 1: I you know, it's kind of gross to hear that 82 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:41,280 Speaker 1: when you're confronted with this opinion, which is surely not 83 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,600 Speaker 1: held by just one high falutant designer. Yeah, not even 84 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: just high faluting designers, even among you know, lower end 85 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: retail sorts like H and M for instance, you know 86 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 1: the guy that you can walk into and leave with 87 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: a fifty dollar outfit. And so Piasecki launches this community, 88 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: which takes off really quickly because all of a sudden, 89 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: this group of women finds each other and they're sharing 90 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: stories about the lack of choice, about having to kind 91 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: of just accept whatever clothes, the limited range of clothes 92 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 1: that are out there in their sizes that might not 93 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: be of the best quality and certainly not of the 94 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: trendiest trends, and having to deal with comments like that 95 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: from Loggerfeld, and also just the comments of maybe everyday 96 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 1: people on the street. Right. And so that's why this 97 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 1: was definitely this community on live journal was definitely a 98 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 1: place where women could turn to just discuss clothes and 99 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: feeling good and clothes not about dieting or weight loss. 100 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: And I thought that they had a really great introduction. 101 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 1: Amanda had a really great introduction to her to her blog, Yeah, 102 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 1: she wrote, welcome factions is here. We will discuss the 103 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 1: ins and outs of fat fashion seriously and stupidly, but 104 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: above all, standing tall and with panash right. And the 105 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:05,799 Speaker 1: basic idea behind this online community was that they didn't 106 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: want to change themselves to fit this market. They wanted 107 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: the market to change. They want the whole conversation about clothing, bodies, acceptance, confidence, 108 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: they want all of that to shift. But now list 109 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: than ten years after that live journal community launched, and 110 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: from there, you know, so many fatching blogs were launched. 111 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: Piasecki says that fatchion has been co opted by the mainstream. Yeah, 112 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: she is none too pleased about the leaving behind of 113 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: the politics she and several other bloggers actually considered to 114 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: be kind of overly fluffy, not not enough substance. There's 115 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: not enough of a philosophical discussion going on anymore. But 116 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: so we have this movement of bloggers who were once 117 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: part of that live journal community who have gone on 118 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: to dart bigger projects and earn sponsorships. And that's kind 119 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:05,679 Speaker 1: of a sticking point for some of the the old 120 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 1: guard I guess you could say. And so, you know, 121 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: we should talk about some of these new girl bloggers. 122 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: One of them is Nicolette Mason. She has the big 123 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: Girl in the Skinny World column in Marie Claire. Yeah, 124 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: and then there are people like Jay Miranda who has 125 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: a really prominent blog. Um, there's Tiffany Tucker Fat Shopaholic, 126 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: and then there's Samantha ras Mussin, for instance, who started 127 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: her blogs Stiletto Siren in response to when she was 128 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 1: going through a period of dieting and it was making 129 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:37,559 Speaker 1: her feel awful about her body, and so she found 130 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: this fatch in community and then started blogging herself and 131 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:43,079 Speaker 1: found a lot of empowerment through that. And that's the 132 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: narrative that you hear over and over and over again 133 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 1: with these blogs. For instance, Alissa Wilson, who started Stylish Curves, says, 134 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: the goal is not to look smaller. The goal is 135 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: to find clothes that make you look good just how 136 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: you are. And then we have to talk about Gabby 137 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: Greg because I feel like within the main stream of 138 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: these fatution bloggers, you have Nicolette Mason, who is pretty 139 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 1: prominent because of that gig that she has with Marie Claire, 140 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: but Gabby Greg on her blog Gabby Fresh, which used 141 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: to be Young, Fat and Fabulous, went viral not too 142 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,679 Speaker 1: long ago, and speaking of women trying to find clothes 143 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 1: that make them look good, Gabby Greg's blog Gabby Fresh 144 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: is a great example of great fashion. I mean, she 145 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: looks adorable in everything she wears. And she was writing 146 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: about her previous blog, Young Fat and Fabulous, and said, 147 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 1: I am passionate about reclaiming the word fat and loved 148 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 1: the previous name of my blog, but I try to 149 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: be realistic about her society. I can spread my message 150 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 1: even farther if I have a name that focuses on 151 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: my style rather than my size, and spread her message 152 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 1: she did when she posted pictures of herself in a 153 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: bikini and I loved the her captioning on this bikini 154 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 1: which was high waste bikini and it had black, black 155 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: and white chevron type of pattern on it, and she 156 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: noted that the style of the top made her breast 157 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: look even larger than the r DR. She was like, 158 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:15,719 Speaker 1: but I don't even care because I love how this 159 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: bikini makes me feel, and she looks fabulous in it. 160 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: And the post from her blog, I think ended up 161 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: on XO Jane. And then she ended up on the 162 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: Today Show and it went viral so quickly because people 163 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: were so astounded, in largely a good way, by a 164 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: plus sized woman proudly posting a photo of herself in 165 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: a bikini and not just trying to cover up her body. 166 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:44,719 Speaker 1: It wasn't her modeling different kinds of cover ups. It 167 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: was her in a bikini. Yeah, and it was It 168 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,959 Speaker 1: was refreshing to see and she did look incredible that 169 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: the photos were awesome, and that led this year in 170 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: to a collaboration between Gabby and Swimsuits for All. She 171 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 1: created her own line full of neon bathing suits Bright 172 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: bathing Suits because one of the huge complaints you hear 173 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 1: from women in this community are that, um, you don't 174 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 1: have any other bathing suits besides navy, brown and black, 175 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: the kind that like squish your organs together when you 176 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 1: put them on to try to make you look slimmer. 177 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: And so instead of trying to hide behind, you know, 178 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: a baggy black bathing suits, she was saying, no, let's 179 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: celebrate our bodies, let's wear bikinis, and let's wear some 180 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:34,679 Speaker 1: freaking neon bikinis. And in her response to the overwhelming 181 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 1: response that she received, Gabby said that the challenges that 182 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 1: she and the fashion industry both face are that readers, 183 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: uh and you know, magazine buyers everywhere, they want to 184 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: see aspirational images, and they don't consider plus size to 185 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: be aspirational. And she says the fashion industry can have 186 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:55,559 Speaker 1: the same attitude. And to me, that's one of the 187 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: most refreshing aspects of this fashion blogging community is that 188 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: it's not it is that it isn't aspirational exactly, that 189 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: it's not trying to tell women, well, wouldn't you like 190 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: to look like this? No, it's oh, you can look 191 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: like this and and here you go. Um. And after 192 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: Greg's bikini post went viral, it got the attention of 193 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 1: the New York Times, and there were ripple effects in teen, 194 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 1: Vogue and Refinery nine, and this main streaming effect, of course, 195 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:34,199 Speaker 1: brought a lot more media attention to these blogs, which also, 196 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 1: of course caught the eye of retailers. And so you 197 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: have bigger name faction bloggers like Gabby Greg who are 198 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 1: starting to partner up with different clothing companies to develop lines, 199 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: or to consult on things, or simply to show up 200 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: at events and also to try on clothes and put 201 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: those clothes on their blogs, do that kind of promotional 202 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: blogging that happens a lot hot And so we circled 203 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: back around to Amana Piosseki, who is none too pleased 204 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 1: with this. Yes, she had some harsh words for this 205 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: mainstreaming and said, it's become an exercise in showing how 206 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: much fat people can be like the mainstream, so their 207 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: worth is question less, which I think is a ridiculous exercise. 208 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 1: For me, the right pursuit is creating a new culture. 209 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: And I think, you know, Piosseki was really striving with 210 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 1: her live journal community to do something bigger than then 211 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: just talk about clothes. You know, she she had a 212 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 1: bigger goal, and I think she's disappointed to see, possibly 213 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 1: in her opinion, that these women are maybe stopping short 214 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: of that goal. But I mean, I don't I don't think. 215 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: I don't think they are necessarily, I think they're taking 216 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,959 Speaker 1: it in a different direction. Well, and it's kind of 217 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: like in the case with Greg as a businesswoman, which 218 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,479 Speaker 1: is what she's become. She has parlayed her blog into 219 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 1: you know, a full time job for herself, which is 220 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: an outlier experience, but never less, it's impressive that she's 221 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: done it, but in the process of doing that, she 222 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:08,679 Speaker 1: realized that she might have to take some attention off 223 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 1: of her body and focus it more on the clothes. 224 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: Even though the problem that Piasecki would say with that 225 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: is that the two are inextricably linked because still in 226 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: this society, fat bodies are stigmatized in a way that 227 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: thin bodies aren't. Right. It's not like by taking the 228 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: word fat out of the conversation, suddenly magazines, you know, 229 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: high fashion magazines will start running models who look like Gaddy, 230 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: or running clothes that look like the ones that she's modeling. Yeah. 231 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: In that New York Times article I mentioned earlier that 232 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: was written in response to Gabby's viral bikini, Nicolette Mason 233 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: told the paper quote posting photos of yourself on the 234 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: Internet and saying hey, I'm fashionable even if the fashion 235 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: media doesn't recognize me is hyper political. But she said, 236 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: you could almost hear the exaspiration in her voice in 237 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: this quote. She said, why is someone my size in 238 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: a bikini making headline news? And see that right there? 239 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: It comes right back around to you know what part 240 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: of what at least is frustrated with And she's not 241 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: the only one who is frustrated. Natalie Perkins. For instance, 242 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: in November two thousand twelve at exod, Jane posted a 243 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: blog called when activism gives way to advertising? How fat 244 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: girl blogging ate itself right? And she criticizes these blogs 245 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: and columns and things like Nicola Mason does Marie Claire 246 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: and says that these blogs are nothing but lists of 247 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: obvious advice, shiny happy content with the nutritional value of 248 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: bubblegum and cutesy sign off graphics. And she says kind 249 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: of what we've been talking about, that you can't solve 250 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: the stigma that exists against fat women by pushing fatchion 251 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 1: bloggers into the mainstream, because she says, you know, just 252 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: look look around you. It's not like all of a sudden, 253 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: these huge departments stores and fancy stores in the mall 254 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: are carrying really well made, high quality, high volume um 255 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: plus size clothes, like these blogs have not had the 256 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: bigger effect that other people would possibly hope for. And 257 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: she goes on to criticize the issue of sponsored posts 258 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: free closed, which she calls the joining of oppressed and 259 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: oppressor in brand relationships, and she also claims that blogs 260 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 1: have lost their diversity factor, and that when faction became 261 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:34,479 Speaker 1: bigger than it really brought just white, CIS gender attractive, 262 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 1: middle class, able bodied women to the forefront. Although I 263 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 1: will say that in our research for this episode of 264 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 1: really like digging in and looking at all of these, 265 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: um more high profile bloggers who were called out by 266 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: New York Times Team Vogue, et cetera, there actually was 267 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: a good amount at least of racial diversity that I saw. Um. 268 00:16:56,280 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: But you know, clearly there's some frustration going on, and 269 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: I can hear both sides of the argument. So I mean, 270 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:10,120 Speaker 1: speaking of like the availability of these clothes in stores 271 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: for women, I mean they're just aren't that many selections available? 272 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: I mean, Natalie Perkins is right in that all of 273 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:22,360 Speaker 1: these fatch and blogs have not transitioned into greater actual 274 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,439 Speaker 1: opportunities to shop. Um. We might have a store like 275 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: Target which does see the plus market as a quote 276 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,439 Speaker 1: unquote growth opportunity, but many other stores have failed to 277 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: provide viable options. Stores like and Taylor and Ellen Tracy 278 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 1: have removed their lines from the actual brick and mortar stores. 279 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 1: For instance, Yeah, during the recession, plus sizes in stores 280 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: like Ann Taylor took the greatest hit compared to what 281 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:52,239 Speaker 1: are termed straight sizes. And it's unfortunate when things like 282 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:56,360 Speaker 1: that happen because, according to the NPD Group, for instance, 283 00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: the plus size business is often regarded as quote unquote tertiary. 284 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: So it's like, oh, well, if, if, if we have to, 285 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: then we'll do this. I mean, you have the stalwart 286 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:09,919 Speaker 1: Lane Bryant, which I learned has been around since the 287 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,640 Speaker 1: nineteen twenties. Who knew Yeah, who knew? Um? And then 288 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: you have other random plus size outlets here and there. 289 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 1: Although with the rise of online shopping, I know there 290 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: have been a lot more brands that have popped up. 291 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:28,959 Speaker 1: But even still, for the average plus size shopper, you know, 292 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 1: I'm sure hearing about like a new line maybe at 293 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: Ann Taylor is great, but then you know, things get 294 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 1: things get cut so quickly, right, and that leads people 295 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 1: like Leslie Kinsel, who wrote two Whole Cakes. If you 296 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 1: damage your clothes, you can't just run out and get 297 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 1: a new cute dress. She says that fat style is 298 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:49,639 Speaker 1: a scarce resource, and she's right. Both the sale of 299 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:53,160 Speaker 1: and stocking of plus size clothes in stores plummeted during 300 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: the recession, and part of The reasoning for this is 301 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: that plus size clothes are more expensive to make, they 302 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 1: require more fabric, and they're more difficult to fit because 303 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,439 Speaker 1: when you look at when manufacturers make clothes, they're aiming 304 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 1: to fit groups of people, but the groups who truly 305 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,160 Speaker 1: fit well into an eighteen, twenty and twenty two aren't 306 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: very large, while many women will fit well into sizes six, eight, 307 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: and ten, for instance. So that ends up resulting in 308 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 1: fewer options on the plus size end of the spectrum, 309 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: and cash strap shoppers, especially during the recession, weren't about 310 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: to shell out a bunch of dough for clothes that 311 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: didn't even fit right, for which retailers didn't even take 312 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: the time to you know, do the right fit measurements. Yeah, 313 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,120 Speaker 1: and that issue of that, the cash trap shopper two 314 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 1: is something that does particularly affect plus size shoppers who 315 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: might not have the additional funding to pay for either 316 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 1: plus size clothes more plus size clothes because those are 317 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: often marked up because the supply is so low, so 318 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: retailers can jack the prices on that or do do 319 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,159 Speaker 1: things like having specially made clothes or go for higher 320 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:10,439 Speaker 1: end plus size retailers. Yeah, and there are like niche 321 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: stores popping up online, which is great, but again, I 322 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 1: mean it's so hard, Like you know, I know that 323 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: I can run to Macy's on my lunch break, you know, 324 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: plain and simple. But if you are looking for specific 325 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 1: size that is not carried in stores like Macy's, H 326 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,679 Speaker 1: and m etcetera, etcetera, you can't just run out and 327 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: simply get a new dress or simply get a new 328 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 1: pair of pants. Like you it's great that these independent 329 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:38,360 Speaker 1: retailers and designers are cropping up online, It's just unfortunate 330 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 1: that it has to be so segregated. Well, if you 331 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 1: consider for a moment, how you can go from store 332 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: to store to store and try on the same size 333 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,199 Speaker 1: and a pair of jeans in the same cut, and 334 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: they fit wildly differently from the Gap to Banana Republic 335 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: to wherever else you're going. And yet you have, you know, 336 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 1: plenty of stores to at least choose from. If you're 337 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: shopping in straight sizes that you can probably finally find 338 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: like a store that will work on your body. Imagine 339 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: how that issue is probably times a million if you 340 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:20,119 Speaker 1: are looking for something in the narrow range of plus 341 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 1: size stores, and even with that, your options are probably 342 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: broader online, but then you have to wait to get 343 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: them to come to your house and then you'll try 344 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,639 Speaker 1: them on. Yeah, I think one of the circles of 345 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 1: hell is ordering an item of clothing from the internet 346 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: and waiting until it comes, and then it comes and 347 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 1: then it doesn't fit and you have to mail it back. 348 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,439 Speaker 1: That's just an aside personally, but I mean, I know, 349 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,199 Speaker 1: I mean imagine, but not all of my shopping is 350 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: that way. That's if I'm ordering a special item or 351 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: don't feel like going to the store or something like that. Well, 352 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: and that's why this blogging community in particular is such 353 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 1: a resource for a lot of women, because not only 354 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 1: is there impact double styling, but it's you know, a 355 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,719 Speaker 1: click away to see, you know where where these items 356 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 1: actually are instead of having to go through and dig 357 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: through uh you know either but plus size outlets or 358 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: having to find a site online. Well. So yeah, I mean, 359 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: like we're talking about with with the rise of independent 360 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: retailers and designers online, it's not all bad news. For instance, 361 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: the first plus sized show in New York's Fashion Week 362 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 1: history happened back in September of Eaton Miller's Spring and 363 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 1: summer collection for her clothing line, Kiberria walked the runway. Yeah, 364 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 1: and Nicola Mason is one who keeps up a lot 365 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: with especially higher end plus sized fashion, and she's talked 366 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: about how there are a number of bespoken independent designers 367 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: who are developing plus sized lines. But again, that kind 368 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 1: of stuff gets into whether issues of whether or not 369 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 1: you can afford those kinds of fancy clothing. But regardless, 370 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 1: I still feel like the messages that come up repeatedly 371 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: on fashion blogs are are empowering whether you are a 372 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: plus size or a straight size, because it kind of 373 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 1: it seems like the rules of fashion are that there 374 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,239 Speaker 1: are no rules, and that's wonderful, and that's something that 375 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 1: you don't hear very often because you know all those 376 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: rules about uh, you know, avoid horizontal striping and don't 377 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: wear bright colors, etcetera, and fashion is the opposite. They 378 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,959 Speaker 1: say that to embrace whatever kind of style that you 379 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 1: want to rock. Because I think in the larger discussion 380 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: of the fat acceptance movement and just in general of 381 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: everyday life of trying to accept your body, I don't 382 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: think any amount of visibility, whether it's online and magazines, 383 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: on the news wherever. That visibility of plus size women 384 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 1: celebrating their bodies having fun with clothes. I mean, that 385 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 1: can't be a bad thing. I mean, I think we've 386 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 1: got this attitude like we're all afraid of fat, We're 387 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,360 Speaker 1: afraid of your fat. You should be afraid of your 388 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: fat um. I think that's really it's pervasive, and it's ugly, 389 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 1: and I think these bloggers are sort of flouting all 390 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 1: of that and saying no, no, no, I'm I'm a 391 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: good person, like I I don't have anything to hide 392 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: just because I'm not some straight size. Yeah. And I 393 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 1: can again, I can completely understand fears of faction becoming 394 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 1: co opted by retailers who ultimately want to downsize all 395 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: of these women anyway. But I do see things still 396 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: moving in the right direction, even when reading those blogs 397 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: that are focused mostly on the clothes and about the 398 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: lifestyle and looks and all these things that might seem 399 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: frivolous but are actually quite significant when you put it 400 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: in the respective of how we consider women's bodies in 401 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: general and what is acceptable on a woman's body and 402 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: what's not. Yeah, it absolutely is political to look society 403 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: in the face and say I don't care I'm going 404 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 1: to dress the way that I want to dress, and 405 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: I'm gonna feel good about it. Yeah, which is why 406 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,640 Speaker 1: I'm gonna wear pants, white pants after labor Day. If 407 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,679 Speaker 1: I hope dog on well pleased. Sally would not like 408 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: that at all. Sally disapproves of white. She will stop 409 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 1: me when we're walking and be like that woman is 410 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:36,160 Speaker 1: wearing white after labor day. Come on, Sally, traditional Southern 411 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,640 Speaker 1: fashion ideas. Get your mom with the times. I still 412 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 1: will not wear white shoes after labor Day, but that's 413 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 1: just me. Well, we want to hear though from listeners 414 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,719 Speaker 1: on this. If you are a fetching blogger, you remember 415 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:52,679 Speaker 1: the fetching community. Um, if you have awesome plus size 416 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,639 Speaker 1: sites to recommend uh. I know that we didn't cite 417 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,120 Speaker 1: a lot of brands because we didn't want to turn 418 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,880 Speaker 1: this into a giant commercial, but we could definitely collect 419 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:07,160 Speaker 1: recommendations from listeners and post it over on our tumbler 420 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,160 Speaker 1: to do our part for spreading the word about some 421 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 1: great sites to go to as well. So you can 422 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 1: email us mom Stuff at Discovery dot com, or you 423 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,920 Speaker 1: can hit us up on Facebook or tweet us at 424 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: Mom's Stuff podcast. And we've got a couple of letters 425 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: to share with you when we come right back from 426 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 1: a quick break. And now back to our letters. So 427 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: we've got a couple of here about our Halloween costume episode, 428 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 1: and this first one is from Ashley and she writes, 429 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,199 Speaker 1: this year, I'm dressing up his lack of Trina, a 430 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 1: Mexican folk character associated with the Day of the Dead. 431 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 1: I should point out that I've studied Spanish and Latin 432 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 1: American culture for most of my life and find her fascinating. 433 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 1: Most people aren't going to get it and assume I'm 434 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,919 Speaker 1: going as a sugar school, which I found in my 435 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:58,400 Speaker 1: surprise as I looked for makeup ideas online. Some consider 436 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: culturally in sense that if I did get the opinions 437 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 1: from several Mexican friends of mine asking them if someone 438 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 1: dressed up as Lachatrina or a sugar skull, if they 439 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,959 Speaker 1: would find that to be a misappropriation of their culture, 440 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: and they replied that no, they most certainly wouldn't unless 441 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: that person made a completely ridiculous, cartoonized version. I put 442 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: a lot of effort into making my costume culturally appropriate 443 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,680 Speaker 1: and accurate, and we'll wear it with pride. So where 444 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,879 Speaker 1: do you draw the line of what's offensive. Over the years, 445 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:27,880 Speaker 1: I've seen many people dresses for you to call over 446 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,439 Speaker 1: various occasions, but it never struck me as offensive. But 447 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,199 Speaker 1: they drew her famous unibrow on their own faces. Is 448 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: that both culturally insensitive and a jab? But those with 449 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 1: harry your eyebrows personally, I don't think so. Uh So 450 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 1: I would say that Ashley, that, like we brought up 451 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:47,159 Speaker 1: in the podcast, dressing up like Lakatrina, a Mexican folk character, 452 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 1: is not misappropriation at all. In that way, you are 453 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: celebrating this character. You're not putting on a sombrero and saying, 454 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: oh hey here I am um. And in terms of 455 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:04,920 Speaker 1: free to call O too, as someone who might have 456 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: I could have a free to call oh if I 457 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: really wanted to know, I don't think that's offensive as well. Again, 458 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:17,160 Speaker 1: you're dressing up as a person from history. Now, if 459 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 1: you were to do brown face or something with free 460 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: to call O, then no. But I don't think the 461 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:28,679 Speaker 1: drawing in eyebrows, because that's a prominent facial features is wrong. 462 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 1: Absolutely somethings, Ashly Well, I have another costume email here 463 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 1: from Kara. Her subject line is serendipity, racially offensive serendipity, 464 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 1: and she actually had listened to our Halloween Costume podcast 465 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 1: the same day that she later encountered the racially insensitive 466 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 1: costume of another human being in the so Karas says, 467 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 1: I was coming out from lunch when some co workers 468 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: asked me to weigh in on a topic of discussion, 469 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 1: namely that one of our co workers couldn't understand how 470 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 1: a white man wearing black face could be considered offensive. 471 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: At first, I assumed that he must be joking. After all, 472 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: we live in Los Angeles, so it's not as though 473 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: we're lacking on liberal views or diversity. Despite the fact 474 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 1: that all the other guys in the conversation were adamant 475 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 1: about how inappropriate and racially insensitive it would be, our 476 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 1: coworker could not be convinced and ultimately left the conversation. 477 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 1: Not only could he not see how black face is offensive, 478 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: he seems surprised that the rest of the group is 479 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,959 Speaker 1: so vocal and unwavering, and telling himself, I'm not entirely 480 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 1: sure what to make of this event, especially because I 481 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: never would have assumed that a thirtysomething guy working in 482 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: my office would think black face was okay being and all. 483 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:44,959 Speaker 1: I hope that we had evolved a little more past that, 484 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 1: guess not. It's times like this that I'm really grateful 485 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: for your podcast and how you speak so openly and 486 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 1: frankly about modern issues and more importantly, issues that until 487 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: today I had assumed were mostly resolved. So thank you 488 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: for listening, Kara, and I hope we gave you ammunition 489 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: to add to that discussion. But it sounds like there 490 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: was no convincing this guy, so that's unfortunate. That is unfortunate, 491 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: but we are also grateful for your emails and notes. 492 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: Mom stuf discovery dot com is our email address. You 493 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: can also find us on Facebook Like us. While you're 494 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 1: at it. You can follow us on Twitter at mom 495 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 1: Stuff Podcast and check out our Halloween costumes on Instagram 496 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 1: at stuff mom Never Told You, And you can also 497 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 1: find us on YouTube. We got a lot of videos 498 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 1: up there, so you should head on over to YouTube 499 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 1: dot com slash stuff mom Never Told You, and don't 500 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: forget to subscribe for more on this and thousands of 501 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: other topics. Does It How stuff Works dot com