WEBVTT - Does Your Dog Really Love You? Science Has the Answer! 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:04.720 Now really. 0:00:06.760 --> 0:00:11.360 Really now really hello, and welcome to Really Know Really 0:00:11.400 --> 0:00:14.080 with Jason Alexander and Peter Tilden. Remind you that if 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:16.520 you subscribe to our show, it will prove that you 0:00:16.680 --> 0:00:20.239 really know, really love us. And speaking of love, have 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:23.520 you ever wondered if your dog truly loves you? 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:25.160 A recent cover story. 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:28.360 Of Newsweek magazine posed that very question and revealed that 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:33.360 there is now scientific research that provides an answer. Really, no, really, 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:36.880 but how can science really prove what your dog feels 0:00:36.920 --> 0:00:37.440 about you? 0:00:37.479 --> 0:00:37.680 Well? 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:42.559 Fascinated by the scientific inquiry, we turned to doctor Gregory Burns, 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:46.720 the Distinguished Professor of Neuroeconomics at Emory University and the 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:50.720 scientist who conducted the actual love research, even going so 0:00:50.840 --> 0:00:54.200 far as to train dogs to be reliable subjects using 0:00:54.400 --> 0:00:57.480 MRIs to discover what's really going on in their little 0:00:57.520 --> 0:00:58.360 doggie brains. 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:01.000 He's got the answer to does your dog truly love you? 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:01.160 So? 0:01:01.200 --> 0:01:04.320 Pet parents, brace yourselves because you're about to learn the truth. 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:05.880 Now here's Jesson and Peter. 0:01:08.240 --> 0:01:11.520 We know each other a long time. Tell me definitively 0:01:12.360 --> 0:01:13.160 do I love you? 0:01:13.280 --> 0:01:13.440 Yes? 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:14.280 I think you love me? 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:15.520 But how would you prove it? 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:18.880 How do you know that I prove it if a kidney. 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:21.480 If I need a kidney, M. 0:01:23.080 --> 0:01:23.880 I really like you. 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:28.360 If I need a kidney and you stepped the kidneys 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:32.320 and you stepped the night before, I'm not then, but 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:33.360 I think you. I think you. 0:01:33.680 --> 0:01:36.720 We've been through enough stuff together. And but is that 0:01:36.760 --> 0:01:41.360 what it is or is it honestly? So yeah, there's like, Okay, 0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:43.440 you asked me for something, I do it for. You 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:44.520 need a favor, I do it. 0:01:44.560 --> 0:01:49.280 You have you have trouble, I commiserate, We sympathize with 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:51.360 each other, we have we laugh together. 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:51.640 We have. 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:57.640 Got how But what I'm asking scientifically, if a scientist 0:01:57.720 --> 0:02:01.880 had to answer the question, does Jason loved Peter, I 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:04.400 don't know how they will? Well you get that yet 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:06.600 here we are talking about the dog. 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:08.840 Okay, but I think the easier thing here and we'll 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:10.280 see it. And I love this guy. I ended up 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:13.200 watching what he's doing now and also know we know 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:15.080 how he did these studies. So we're going to share 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:17.480 it with everybody about that because everybody listening as a dog. 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:19.200 But why don't you tell I know you have a 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:20.760 story about a dog you were well. 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:22.640 You know you're talking about a dog in effect, So 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:26.280 I did a movie years ago that Richard Gear started 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:30.720 and produced called Hachi, and it is based on a 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:33.959 true story that happened in Japan with a dog named Hachiko, 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:40.840 where Hotchiko's owner would walk with Hachiko or Hachi to 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:43.359 the train station every day so that he would go 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:46.120 off to work and the dog would make its way home. 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:51.160 And then the dog must have learned what time the 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:53.360 train back from work would come and he would walk 0:02:53.440 --> 0:02:57.720 back to the station to greet his owner every day. Well, 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:01.640 after years of doing this, apparently the owner went to 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:04.320 the train in the morning, Hotchiko walked with him went 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:06.960 back home, but the guy died while he was at work, 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:10.440 so Hachiko went back to the train station. The owner 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:13.280 never gets off the train, and the story is that 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:17.040 Hachiko never left the trains, that he waited literally for 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:20.000 the rest of his life for his owner to come 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:23.600 off the train. And in Japan this story is told 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:28.280 and with reverence, and there's a statue Pochigo because he's 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:31.880 become a symbol of true love and loyalty. 0:03:32.760 --> 0:03:35.720 So we did the American version of that story. I 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:36.920 got to work with Lilah. 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:39.560 By the way, one of the hot yeah, one of 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:42.640 one of the dogs that played HATCHI my first day 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:45.320 in the trailer, the makeup gals looked at the call 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:47.960 sheet and went, oh, you're working with Lila. 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:50.000 And I said, is Lilah good? 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:52.440 And they, with a straight face, they said, she's the 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:53.880 Meryl Streep of Ducks. 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:58.720 And you know what, she was very good. She gave, 0:03:58.880 --> 0:03:59.640 she gave something. 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:03.640 But I always was wondering, you know, not the not 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:05.880 the I don't want to be that guy. 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:07.680 But I go, yeah, he's living. 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:10.960 The dog is living at the train station because everyone 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:13.720 that knew the dog and the guy on day one 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:15.840 is going, oh, he doesn't know. So it's pets and 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:19.080 cuddles and a treat and a thing and every and 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:22.159 now the dog's there tomorrow. So by in three days, 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:25.440 the whole train station is feeding this dog, watering this dog, 0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:26.400 petting this dog. 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:29.719 Giving it toys to play. I mean, why would it 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:30.839 go home? Why? 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:33.919 By the way, it's funny. I have some insight into dogs. 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:36.120 I understand that Hanky was waiting for the movie to break. 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:41.960 Even dogs are fascinating to me. And and this your 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:45.120 question of how can you tell if the dog is 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:48.480 truly in love with you? Right, let's get let's get 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:48.960 doctor Burns. 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:51.479 Let me introduce this fine gentleman to you all. 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:57.279 Doctor Gregory Burns is the Distinguished Professor, not just you know, distinger, 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:03.160 the associate the underling Distinguished Professor of Neuroeconomics at Emory University. 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:05.360 He directs the Center for Neuropolicy. 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:09.200 He has received numerous grants from the National Institutes of Health, 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:12.960 the National Science Foundation, Department of Defense, and he's published 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:16.919 over seventy peer reviewed original research articles, many relating to 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:18.839 his work with dogs. He is a New York Times 0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:23.599 bestselling author of How Dogs Love Us a neuroscientist and 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:26.880 his adopted dog decode the canine brain. And he's very 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:28.560 into dogs. He's got another book, What It's Like to 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:31.200 Be a Dog. He's also he's doing. 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:35.040 A lot of it. If you're watching this on YouTube. 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:38.240 Has the coolest den of anybody we've interviewed. Oh and 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:41.000 there's a dog, your newer dog? Is that the newer dog? 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:41.400 Oh? 0:05:43.000 --> 0:05:44.840 No, that's Cali. She's the original. 0:05:45.320 --> 0:05:45.680 Wow. 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:48.279 Well she was the first MRI dog. 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:49.480 So let's talk. 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:54.440 Let's talk. Can we by the way, yeah heard the dog. 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:56.840 The dog got up to say hello. You didn't actually 0:05:56.960 --> 0:05:59.720 we always do this. We seg right in without saying hello, 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:07.680 welcome to the show. It's lovely to meet you. That's 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:11.919 another's two. Oh, there's two, gorgeous score. Oh that's ahead. 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:14.080 I actually thought I was seeing the head and arms 0:06:14.080 --> 0:06:17.200 of a primate on the floor for a second. 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:17.560 Ears. 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:21.840 So, doctor Burns, can you run us through the background 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:26.080 of that of what stimulated this entire study, the article 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:27.240 of the MRIs et cetera. 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:32.200 Oh, sure, so as I. I mean, the fact of 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:34.599 it is is that for most of my career I 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:38.000 used to study humans and put people in MRI scanners 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:41.200 to see how people think and how they make decisions. 0:06:41.240 --> 0:06:45.400 And that's what field of neuroeconomics is about. And yes 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:49.000 I still carry that title just because I have nothing 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:54.560 better to describe myself with. And and what happened was 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:57.920 this was back in twenty eleven, and if you think 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:00.400 way back, what was happening in two thousand and eleven. 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:03.919 What happened was that there was this mission to go 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:06.479 after bin Laden, remember, and. 0:07:08.640 --> 0:07:11.040 You know that's kind of its only thing. 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:14.480 But me being a dog person, what captured my interest 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:16.800 was the fact that there was a dog on that mission, 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:19.920 and there was a lot of press about it, and 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:22.960 I saw these pictures of dogs in the military, and 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:26.120 I didn't know anything about military dogs, but I saw 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:29.920 these pictures of dogs being trained to jump out of helicopters, 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:32.920 and I thought, you know, me being an MRI guy, 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:36.560 and if you've had an MRI, and I'm guessing, because 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:38.520 we're all of a certain age, everyone here has had 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:39.000 an MRI. 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:41.920 You know what they sound like. 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:46.080 They're pretty unpleasant, they're pretty loud, And so I thought, wow, 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:48.400 you know, if a dog can jump out of a helicopter, 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:50.840 then why don't we train dogs to go an MRI 0:07:51.000 --> 0:07:52.880 scanner so we can see what they're thinking. 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:56.400 And that really was the beginning of it. And as 0:07:56.440 --> 0:07:57.640 I sometimes. 0:07:57.320 --> 0:07:59.400 Tell people, it was also a good excuse to take 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:00.520 my dog to work every day. 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:05.560 Yeah wow, so you did. What did your studies yield 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:09.120 that blew your mind? As far as the dogs truly 0:08:09.160 --> 0:08:11.480 loving us and having feelings and emotions. 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:14.840 Yeah, well, I mean you have to realize when we 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:18.960 started the project, really, you know, the dog brain was 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:22.400 just kind of a an unwritten map. I mean, nobody 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:25.400 had really looked at how it's organized. You know, we 0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:27.880 know a lot about the human brain. We know a 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:32.160 lot about other primates because they're similar to us, and 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:34.960 we know about you know, smaller animals like mice and rats. 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:39.920 But honestly, it was just kind of initially just going 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:45.040 out exploring, and so we started with the easiest, simplest, 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:48.560 dumb experiments we could think of. I mean, one, we 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:50.920 had to prove that we could train dogs to hold 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:54.000 still long enough to even get good images that we 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:56.840 could analyze. And so once we did that, then we 0:08:57.040 --> 0:09:01.280 just kind of proceeded systematically, first with their reward system. 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:07.000 And when we talk about reward systems in brains, it 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:09.840 turns out that you know, for mammals, we're all pretty 0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:13.040 similar because you can look at a brain and say, okay, 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:15.840 that's that part of the brain. This is the reward center. 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:19.000 We know where it's located. We know that that's where 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:23.880 dopamine exerts most of its actions. And so then what 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:26.920 we could set out to do then is seeing the dog, Okay, 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:30.600 well what activates it the most? So we know in 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:33.280 people kind of how it works, We know what motivates 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:37.880 people kind of the basic primary rewards, things like food 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:46.000 and water born money, and yeah, you know, all these 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:46.920 things have been done in. 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:48.280 The scanners to people. 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:52.040 I just wondered, you know, how do you present that 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:53.600 to your colleagues the first time? You know what I 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:55.640 think we should try, because you know what we've done, 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:56.320 food and water. 0:09:57.800 --> 0:09:59.120 The next thing comes to my mind. 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:04.480 I slid it in, didn't he got right behind by 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:05.280 the way? Not wrong? 0:10:05.400 --> 0:10:06.920 Yeah, no, no, no never. 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:08.200 I did not charge no judgment. 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:12.320 You didn't hear me ring a buzzer. I just noted it. 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:13.199 That wouldn't you die? 0:10:13.240 --> 0:10:14.920 Right now? We said the number one thing dogs love? 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:16.600 Yeah? 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:19.640 So so all right, so you know what brings our bell? Jay? You? 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:22.560 So what is it? What is in dogs? You were 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:25.120 able to kind of isolate? That was interesting to you. 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:28.319 Well, so we started with kind of the obvious things. 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:31.240 So initially we start with food, and in fact, that's 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:33.080 how we trained the dogs in the first place to 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:36.720 go in the scanner, reward them with food. Although I'll 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:39.120 tell you early on we noted that a lot of 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:41.840 the dogs that we started training didn't really seem to 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:44.880 care as much about the food as the actual just 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:47.480 interaction with with their person and just kind of the 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:51.120 praise and just the whole activity itself. And that's that's 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:52.920 how we did all the training, we just turned it 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:56.720 into a big game for the dogs. So after we 0:10:56.800 --> 0:10:58.840 showed that we could kind of hold up a treat 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:01.000 and then we could see the reward center of the 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:03.760 dogs light up, then we started doing kind of more 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:06.560 subtle things. Then we just did things like okay, well 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:09.400 just praise the dog, you know, say good girl, good boy, 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:13.160 And what does that do. Well, it turns out it 0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:16.960 does the same thing. So here we have these dogs 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:21.199 who most people kind of assume just did what they 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:23.080 did because at the end of the day, yeah, we 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:25.040 feed them, we house them, and you know, we take 0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:28.000 care of them. And you know, a lot of scientists 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:31.280 for many years kind of thought that the biggest trick 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:34.520 that dogs did in becoming dogs was getting us to 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:38.160 take care of them. That was their evolutionary breakthrough, right, 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:42.160 But it turns out it's a it's a bit more 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:46.160 interesting and more complex than that, because you know, we 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:49.240 found that for most of the dogs, this kind of 0:11:49.280 --> 0:11:52.600 when you offer food and praise, they're they're pretty much 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:55.920 equally activating to the dog's reward center. And then in 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:59.480 some dogs, in fact, the praise was even more activating. 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:02.760 And so how do you explain that and that The 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:06.840 simplest answer is, you know, they just have social rewards, 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:10.480 just very much like people do. You know everyone likes praise, 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:13.000 you know, everyone likes to be told they're doing a good. 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:15.080 Job, and you know dogs are the same. 0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:18.040 Does that and I guess this is the essential question 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:21.440 that we're asking in this episode. Does that equate to 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:27.000 a true love for the person giving it to them? 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:29.680 Like if I'm working for a director that I admire 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:31.640 and he goes, oh, that was a great take. That 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:33.840 was such a great scene, what a great job. I'm 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:36.679 sure I'm getting the dopamine hit, but it doesn't mean 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:38.160 I love this person. 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:38.400 You know. 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:42.199 So how do we or do we know at this 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:45.320 point that you can actually take that reaction and equate 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:47.000 it to what we think of as love. 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:51.199 Yeah, I get I get this a lot, and it 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:54.000 reminds me I once did. I once did did a 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:58.920 morning show when all these results came out and the 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:02.360 host was very very well meaning, uh, And I kind 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:05.480 of knew what she was expecting me to say, because 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:09.960 she said to me at one point, well, gee, doctor Burns, 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:14.360 so does my dog really love me? And I kind 0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:17.960 of stupidly just answered what I was thinking at the moment, 0:13:18.240 --> 0:13:20.560 and I said, gee, I don't know you and I 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:22.440 don't know your dog, how should I know? 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:26.800 Sure? 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:29.400 Love? 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:33.880 See now I love you. I can actually say that, Well. 0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:34.240 Now you know me? 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:34.520 Right? 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:40.920 Uh So, Jason, It's it's this, this is a hard question, 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:44.400 and you were alluding to it in the introduction. 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:46.760 It's like, how do you know anybody loves you? 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:47.040 Right? 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:49.520 Uh? 0:13:49.720 --> 0:13:54.960 Is it because of what they say? Mm hmm uh maybe? 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:59.960 But you know, I mean people, people are good at you. 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:05.880 Know, acting, you know. Ah, now I would say that 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:09.120 dogs are not actors. I don't think so. I mean 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:11.800 your experience is not bonding right. 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:13.560 Yeah. 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:18.120 Uh So, in many ways, I think it's easier for 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:21.520 us as humans to read their actions and interpret them 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:25.480 at face value. So and I don't think you need 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:28.640 an MRI for this. You know, most most dog owners 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:31.000 and dog lovers you know, will tell me. 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:33.880 It's like, well, gee, you just proved what what I've. 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:37.600 Known all along, and the best way I can I 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:40.280 can kind of conceptualize this in terms of love. And 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:43.840 because I've been asked like, what's your definition of love? 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:48.440 So we have to acknowledge that that word does not 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:52.960 really capture all the nuances of it. We apply it 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:56.000 in so many different ways and in so many different 0:14:56.040 --> 0:14:59.920 types of love. You know, whether it's romantic love, parental, 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:05.240 brotherly love, friendship. The word applies to all the circumstances. 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:09.120 And so my view is that if we take kind 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:12.560 of a dog version of it, however we define it, 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:12.920 then I. 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:14.440 Think it's easy to recognize. 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:18.520 And it is easy to recognize if you say love 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:22.920 is non transactional, meaning it's not dependent on something else. 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:25.160 It's not dependent on the fact that I feed the 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:28.760 dogs or do anything else. It's just that they want 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:31.880 to be with me or whoever. And if they come 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:35.200 up and they just want to be around you, hey, 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:36.480 I'll take that as love. 0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:41.240 So that for me, that begs two questions. And I'll 0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:41.560 use my. 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:46.400 Departed dog, Sandy as an example. So when I would 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:48.840 see Sandy at the end of the day, if I 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:51.200 come home from work, she would do what I would 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:53.760 expect to dog it is crazy about me to do. 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:57.800 She'd get very excited. She couldn't get on me enough. 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:00.880 You know, she's rubbing her whole body, tail is going, 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:04.080 the licks are happening. She's I mean, this is the 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:07.880 most effusive dog. Because Daddy came home. Now, if the 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:10.800 doorbell rang and Peter was at the door, she would 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:14.360 pretty much exhibit the same behavior with him. And so 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:20.400 is is it that I guess what I'm asking is, 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:23.160 does she love me less because she seems to love 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:25.800 him too? Or is it just that as a pack 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:30.160 animal and interacting with humans that she knows, well, this 0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:33.120 is someone who will take care of me. This is 0:16:33.120 --> 0:16:35.440 not anybody that's gonna harm me. I'm gonna go check 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:39.720 this out. Is she just excited? What? What when you 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:45.120 see a dog reacting similarly to a new person, should 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:46.200 we read anything into that? 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:50.720 Well, this is a Jason problem, not a Sandy problem. 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:54.680 You know what? Now suddenly. 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:01.080 Just he just he's just off the game. 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:03.800 Now, I'm going to know all these guys at the 0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:06.280 end of the thirty five years I've known you, and 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:08.840 now I can start saying, I think it's a yeah, 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:11.360 I never sought to do that. 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:13.560 But what do you what do you mean by that? Seriously? 0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:18.760 I think dogs are promiscuous, to be honest, I got you, 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:22.879 I got you. I mean that's how they are. I 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:26.119 mean not obviously not all dogs are that way, and 0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:30.040 I can think of many examples who aren't. But I mean, 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:34.520 they're happy to be around people. And if it doesn't 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:37.560 lessen you know, her love for you, that you know 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:42.000 she likes someone else. So what as I said, they're promiscuous. 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:45.720 I mean, we can get into their reproductive habits and 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:49.520 that will make even more sense. But and I think 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:52.719 I think actually all of these things are tied together. 0:17:52.800 --> 0:17:55.560 Their biology is is a certain way and it's different 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:59.679 than ours, so the relationships that they form are going 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:02.840 to be different. But I do think that in many 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:06.119 cases they're unconditional. They're not They're doing it because they 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:07.680 enjoy it, not because we feed them. 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:09.720 So I think that's what's important, right. 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:11.520 But that's what leads me to the other question. 0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:12.919 And then I know you have a lot of questions, 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:14.600 But this is another one that I think was very 0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:20.480 specific to me that I'd never seen before. So my mom, 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:22.520 when she was alive, you know, came to visit a 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:25.119 couple of times. We usually go to her, but. 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:26.720 She came a couple times to our house. 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:32.240 And my mother was never the dog would never see 0:18:32.240 --> 0:18:35.240 my mother be anything but effusive to me. My mother 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:39.680 was effusive to the dog, but my dog from the 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:42.240 minute my mother stepped in the house, would not be 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:46.040 in the same room as my mother, just wouldn't do 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:47.919 it no matter what. If we called her in for 0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:50.120 a treat and she saw my mom in the room, 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:53.640 she wouldn't stay in the room. And I thought, what 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:58.600 is it that she knows that this woman that either 0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:01.439 I have affection for her, or this woman has a 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:04.240 higher status than me, or I couldn't figure out what 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:07.639 she's picking up on. My mom wasn't sick, because I 0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:10.480 know dogs can smell illness sometimes and that might have 0:19:10.600 --> 0:19:11.320 pushed her away. 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:13.880 But that was one of the conundrums. 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:17.040 Do you have any I'm asking you to be almost 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:18.480 a dogs like collegies at this point, but do you 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:21.040 have any inside or have you ever witnessed anything like 0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:21.639 that before? 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:24.720 I have. 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:31.280 The last of that to describe this situation since you 0:19:31.400 --> 0:19:36.800 asked so. When when we started the project, you know, 0:19:36.840 --> 0:19:39.760 we were always we were looking for dog volunteers or 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:42.879 people to volunteer with their dogs, and and of course 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:46.040 many people volunteered, and we would develop kind of an 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:49.640 audition tryout process to see which dogs might be suitable 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:53.560 for MRI training. And one of the students, I mean 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:55.520 the students in my lap kind of were always first 0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:58.240 of mine, and oftentimes their dogs turned out to be 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:02.679 unsuitable because they were too anxious, they didn't like the 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:06.920 noise for all sorts of reasons. Although we had one 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:11.440 dog who basically we tried to get through the process 0:20:12.280 --> 0:20:16.600 and uh, his owner she came to me one day 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:19.920 and she says, I don't, I don't think he can 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:24.080 do it. And I said, I asked her why, and 0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:25.639 she she didn't really want to give me the answer, 0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:26.880 but then she finally said. 0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:28.640 Well, he's a. 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:38.000 H M. 0:20:39.119 --> 0:20:42.600 His owner she came to me one day, he says, 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:46.200 I don't, I don't think he can do it. And 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:49.680