1 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:09,040 Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 2 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb. Today's Saturday. So what do we 3 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: have for you? It's gonna be The Manta Ray Part two. 4 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:17,279 Speaker 1: This is part two of three. It originally published seven eight, 5 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,159 Speaker 1: twenty twenty five. You know what a manta ray is, 6 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: but now you're going to learn even more about them. 7 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: Let's jump right in. 8 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 9 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:38,520 Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 10 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:41,480 Speaker 2: My name is Robert Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, 11 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 2: and we're back with part two in our series on 12 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 2: manta rays and their close mobuld relatives. In the last 13 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 2: episode of this series, we kicked things off by talking 14 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 2: about an experience that you had rob recently where you 15 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 2: and your family got to see reef manta rays in 16 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 2: person while snorkeling in Indonesia, which sounds pretty amazing to 17 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 2: get the details on that right. 18 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:05,960 Speaker 1: Correct, Yes, it was. It was amazing. You know, words 19 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: can't quite describe it. 20 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 2: Observing them, but not swimming quote with them. Weren't you 21 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 2: weren't riding the rays? 22 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 1: Correct, They were doing their own thing. We were trying 23 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: to keep our distance. And observe from a distance, which 24 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: is the correct way of going about things. 25 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 2: So that was what inspired us to talk about manta 26 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:26,199 Speaker 2: rays in a series of episodes here on the show. 27 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 2: In the last episode, we talked about the historical evolution 28 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:34,680 Speaker 2: of human attitudes toward manter rays with these old stories 29 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:38,119 Speaker 2: among some divers and sailors that cast manta rays as 30 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:42,199 Speaker 2: diabolical vampires of the sea. You know, there's one idea 31 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 2: that they will like fold over a diver like a 32 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 2: blanket of death. This, of course is not true, and 33 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 2: since it seems like since roughly the nineteen seventies there 34 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 2: has been more widespread recognition that mantas are gentle and 35 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 2: not threatening to humans, though of course that has not 36 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 2: stopped humans from threat them, and we talked about all 37 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 2: kinds of ways that human activity can hurt these animals. 38 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 2: These impacts range from accidental harms, like when mantas are 39 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 2: killed as bycatch in commercial fishing. It's not what people 40 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:13,919 Speaker 2: are fishing for, but they just get caught in nets 41 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 2: and other lines and other things, all the way to 42 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 2: intentional targeting, where they are killed for their gill plates, 43 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 2: which some people falsely allege to have medicinal powers, and 44 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 2: in the vein of talking about tall tales of Mantas 45 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 2: as vicious monsters, we also discussed a couple of movies 46 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:35,799 Speaker 2: made in the nineteen thirties that have a Killer Manta 47 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 2: Ray or Devil Ray as the monster. 48 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:40,959 Speaker 1: I didn't mention this in that episode, but it's worth 49 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 1: noting that, you, of course have one of Aquaman's arch 50 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: enemies is Black Manta, so you know, it's the perfect 51 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 1: mantle for a villain that was conceived. I believe in 52 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 1: this era you also have Man Ray, which is a 53 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: villain based on Black Manta that pops up on SpongeBob SquarePants, 54 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 1: not to be confused with the the artist Man Ray. 55 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 2: I think Black Manta is actually in the Aquaman movie 56 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 2: with cal Drogo in it, isn't it. 57 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, who plays Black Manta? I don't I 58 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: haven't seen any of those films. 59 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 2: I don't remember any of the cast of that movie, 60 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 2: except in Nicole Kidman in a really funny looking costume. 61 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 2: So I you know, folks out there, No, I'm not 62 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 2: the biggest superhero movie fan. I haven't kept up with 63 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 2: all of the Marvel and DC superhero films, but I 64 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 2: think I watched Aquaman on a plane for some reason. 65 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,119 Speaker 2: I remember thinking it was really funny, like highly amusing. 66 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 2: Oh no, wait, I remember another cast member had Patrick 67 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 2: Wilson like riding on a shark and saying, you will 68 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 2: call me ocean master. 69 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: I need to watch those on an airplane sometime. 70 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 2: Yes, Jason Momoa, I'm sorry I called him cal Droco. 71 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 3: That's not nice. His name is Jason Momoa. 72 00:03:54,480 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: Suffice to say, however, the Western American slash European conceptions 73 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: of the manta ray and related species have evolved since 74 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: basically the nineteen seventies the nineteen seventies onward. Everyone has 75 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: come to realize that manta rays are peaceful giants of 76 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: the ocean and they are not out to eat. 77 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 2: Us, right, And so we also talked about modern conservation 78 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 2: efforts aimed at protecting mantas. You know, we got into 79 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 2: like the cost benefit analysis that has to be done 80 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 2: if you're considering building something like an ecological tourism trade 81 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,600 Speaker 2: around them. You know, there are risks but also potentially rewards. 82 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:35,239 Speaker 2: And we also talked about the basic biology of manta 83 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 2: rays and their near relatives, their near relatives being the 84 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 2: devil rays, mantas and devil rays together make up the 85 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:46,799 Speaker 2: genus Mobula, And we got into subjects including their body design, 86 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 2: common feeding strategies, and leaping or breaching behavior where they 87 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 2: jump out of the water and slap back down. We 88 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 2: talked about some reasons they might do that, and we're 89 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 2: back today to talk about more. 90 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we're gonna pick up in an interest. You're 91 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: going to get into some more myths or potential myths 92 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,159 Speaker 1: about their behavior and what we may or may not 93 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: know about those behaviors. 94 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 2: Now right, well, I think this might be slightly different 95 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:17,039 Speaker 2: because it would be truths about their behavior with mythical interpretations, 96 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 2: if that makes any sense. So in the last episode, 97 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:23,919 Speaker 2: we were talking about these incorrect folk beliefs about the 98 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 2: man array. You know that they would attack boats or 99 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 2: attack divers in the form of this underwater death blanket. 100 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 2: And as a source there, I referenced an old article 101 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 2: called the Story of the Devilfish from the ear Way 102 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 2: back in the year nineteen ten by the American biologist 103 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 2: Theodore gil There was another thread in this article that 104 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 2: I found interesting and I wanted to come back to 105 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 2: it today. So if you'll recall from last time in 106 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 2: this article Gil, He's very dismissive of the belief that 107 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 2: the manta tries to smother divers with its body or 108 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,359 Speaker 2: devour them with its gaping mouth. He points out that 109 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 2: the manta is a filter feeder which eats tiny planktonic organisms. 110 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 2: It does not eat large prey. There's no evidence of 111 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 2: manta's targeting humans for violence, and they don't even have 112 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 2: the right biological equipment to eat us if they were 113 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 2: going to try to do that, which they're not going 114 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 2: to try. But there is another part of the manta's 115 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 2: more frightening reputation in pre modern times, which is the 116 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:25,919 Speaker 2: belief that mantas will attack boats, not divers, but boats, 117 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 2: particularly the claim that a manta will drag a boat 118 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 2: out to sea by the anchor line. So here I'm 119 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 2: going to read a passage from Gill's article quote in 120 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 2: one of the earliest notices of the devilfish by John 121 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 2: Lawson in the History of Carolina seventeen fourteen. This peculiarity 122 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 2: is described the devilfish, he says, has been known to 123 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 2: weigh a ship's anchor and run with the vessel a 124 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 2: league or two and bring her back against tide to 125 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 2: almost the same place, but then the quote ends in 126 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,359 Speaker 2: guild on to say later notices do not give the 127 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 2: animal credit for the same accommodating treatment, And he later 128 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 2: alludes to these other accounts that tell of the devilfish 129 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 2: pulling sailing boats around by the anchor to the wonder 130 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 2: and fear of the sailors, and he also cites a 131 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 2: more recent source to him at the time of his writing. 132 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 2: This was a French naturalist named Leon de Guett describing 133 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 2: the activity of pearl fishers in the Gulf of California 134 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 2: in a text from eighteen ninety eight, and according to Deguet, 135 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 2: when fishers are caught out at sea overnight in the 136 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 2: Gulf of California, away from their usual mooring places, he 137 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 2: says they will always drop two anchors, because they fear 138 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 2: that if they only drop one, the anchor line will 139 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 2: be seized by the devilfish in the dark, and thus 140 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 2: the boat will be carried away into the open sea. 141 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 2: And to get back to this up with his own observation, 142 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 2: telling a story of how he was sent out to 143 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 2: harpoon a specimen of a devil ray for the Natural 144 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 2: History Museum of Paris, and he says, quote after one 145 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 2: had been harpooned, it turned back on the boat, seized 146 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 2: the bow with its head fins, and held it in 147 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 2: its clasp till it was lanced the second time. So 148 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 2: that's Deget's account, But Gil says even this direct observation 149 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 2: does not really lend credence to the idea that mantas 150 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 2: or devil rays deliberately attack, detain or hijack boats, because 151 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 2: based on his own study, Gil writes that this kind 152 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 2: of grasping with the headfins is automatic. He says, it's 153 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 2: an involuntary muscular reaction when something is in front of 154 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 2: the ray's mouth, so in this case it might happen 155 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 2: to be the bow of the harpooner's boat, and so 156 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 2: even when it's being attacked by somebody on the boat, 157 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,199 Speaker 2: when it's being harpooned, Gil argues that the ray was 158 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 2: probably not actually trying to harm the boat, but rather 159 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 2: is just being pulled toward the boat by the tension 160 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 2: of the rope on the harpoon it had just been 161 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 2: lanced with. And even to get himself the person originally 162 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 2: telling the story of it seizing the bow of the boat, 163 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 2: he says the devilfishes are generally timid, non aggressive animals. 164 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 2: Though then, after saying this confusingly to get does seem open, 165 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 2: he sort of opens up more claims of devilfish savagery 166 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 2: and alleges that in the Gulf of California quote, numerous 167 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 2: cases have occurred of death resulting to divers as well 168 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:35,560 Speaker 2: as bathers from encounters with the devilfish or manta as 169 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 2: the men call it. On the other hand, the carcasses 170 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 2: of many that are killed are used for bait for 171 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 2: other fishes. The strange detail to include. 172 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean all of this is the pardon 173 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: the terminology here at fishy because. 174 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 2: Dubious the third hand, Yeah. 175 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, because everything we know and have been 176 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: discussing about rays, when they're threatened, they use a bir 177 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 1: to speed they get away. That's their major way of 178 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 1: defending themselves. So it doesn't really make sense based on 179 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 1: what we know that they would turn around an attack 180 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 1: of a ship or a boat, even if they are 181 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: being acted upon with harpoons. 182 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 2: Right, and as we discussed last time, of course, they 183 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 2: are large animals, and any large animal could potentially hurt 184 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 2: you just by bumping into you. Wrong, but there is 185 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:28,079 Speaker 2: really no evidence I could find of manta's being aggressive 186 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 2: towards humans except for these like old third hand stories. 187 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 3: Yeah. 188 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: And I don't know if Gil gets into this or no, 189 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: butical for one of the things with you get into 190 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: oral histories of things like the devilfish the manta, you 191 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 1: end up having to ask questions, well, is the manta 192 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: in this story, even if there's a kernel of truth 193 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: to it, is it indeed talking about the species that 194 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 1: we are talking about as the manta ray, or is 195 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 1: it referring to something else real or imagined. 196 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, so, even back in nineteen ten, Gill to me 197 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 2: seems skeptical of these claims about it attacking boats. Certainly, 198 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 2: modern researchers are skeptical of these stories of manterray aggression 199 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:12,319 Speaker 2: towards boats. But to the question of dragging boats, specifically 200 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,959 Speaker 2: by the anchor cable, is this just a tall tale 201 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 2: like the mantray death blanket story or is there something 202 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 2: more to that? Is there any modern evidence of things 203 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:26,199 Speaker 2: like this happening? The answer to this is yes. For example, 204 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 2: I found a Reuter's article from February eleventh, nineteen ninety nine, 205 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 2: called motor boat no match for manterray in Tug of War. 206 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 1: Well, I generally, you know, I generally trust Reuters in 207 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: their reporting, though usual usually I'm not reading about the 208 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: marine biology. When I'm reading Reuters, usually it's a nice, 209 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: you know, doom scroll into the abyss. So I missed 210 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: this one when it came out. If I was in 211 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 1: fact reading Routers at the time. 212 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 2: I'll read from the beginning of the article and then 213 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 2: summarize some other parts of it and we can make 214 00:11:58,320 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 2: up our minds about it. Okay, what's going on here? 215 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 2: So Dateline New Smurta Beach, Florida. Two Florida boaters met 216 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 2: a real sea monster when their craft was dragged for 217 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 2: hours by a powerful creature that turned out to be 218 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 2: a giant manta ray, the Coastguard said Wednesday. Coastguard Petty 219 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 2: Officer Scott Barnes said the agency received a radio distress 220 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 2: call from a sixteen foot boat that reported it was 221 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 2: being dragged by its anchor line by something unknown. The 222 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 2: Coastguard sent a rescue boat to investigate and found the 223 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 2: motor boat was being dragged in circles by something beneath 224 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 2: the surface. The crew transferred the anchor line to the 225 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 2: Coastguard vessel, freeing the men in the motor boat who 226 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 2: had tried to use their ninety horsepower engine to go 227 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 2: in reverse and stop themselves from being dragged out to sea. 228 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 2: After the Coastguard's forty one foot boat pulled the anchor 229 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 2: line for several minutes, a giant manta ray measuring an 230 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 2: estimated eighteen feet in width, came to the surface, and 231 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 2: then the article goes on to describe how the Coastguard 232 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 2: struggled to pull the rope away. Eventually, the manta was 233 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 2: able to disentangle itself from the rope and it swam 234 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 2: away on its own, and by the end of the ordeal, 235 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 2: the manta, they estimate, had pulled the boat for almost 236 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 2: two hours, taking it about a mile and a half 237 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 2: away from shore. But you could easily get the wrong 238 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 2: idea about this, thinking that it supports this old notion 239 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 2: that mantas will attack boats, that they are doing this 240 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 2: on purpose, they're trying to drag the sailors out to sea, 241 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 2: out to their deaths or something. From what I've read, 242 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 2: there is absolutely zero evidence to support the idea that 243 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 2: the mantas are acting aggressively when they pull a boat 244 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 2: by the anchor line. The zero evidence that they're acting 245 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 2: aggressively or even acting intentionally. Rather, this is almost certainly 246 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 2: a case of manta's getting stuck. They are getting tangled 247 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 2: in underwater ropes and chains by accident and then pulling 248 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 2: the boat because they are unable to free themselves. And 249 00:13:57,880 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 2: when you look at their heads, you look up a 250 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,679 Speaker 2: picture of a manta ray or a devil ray, you 251 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 2: can see how this might easily happen. They almost have 252 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 2: biological mooring cleats with their cephalic fins. 253 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you can imagine them, you know, catching the line. 254 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 2: For one more example of a modern encounter, I found 255 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 2: a video on YouTube that the title begins with Giant 256 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 2: manta ray tangled in anchorchain, forty miles off shore. This 257 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 2: is a video of some people out in a fishing 258 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 2: boat in the Gulf of Mexico and a manta does 259 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 2: get caught in their anchor line. Like it looks when 260 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 2: you can see it, it looks like the line is not 261 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 2: just caught between the cephalic fins, but kind of wrapped 262 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 2: around them, like the lobes on its head have the 263 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 2: line going across as well as between, and you can 264 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 2: see it struggling. At a couple of points in this video. 265 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 2: It quite strangely, it almost seems to be coming up 266 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 2: to the surface and holding still while the fishermen are 267 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 2: trying to get it untangled. Then weirdly kind of matches. 268 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 2: But then I don't know how to interpret what I'm 269 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 2: seeing there, so maybe it shouldn't be taken this way. 270 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 2: But it kind of reminds me of all these stories 271 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 2: people talk about of manta rays being very like, kind 272 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 2: of slow moving and gentle while they come up to 273 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 2: them and almost kind of letting people, you know, interact 274 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 2: with them. Again, not encouraging people to do that unless 275 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 2: you're trying to free one from a problem you've created. 276 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 2: But anyway, in the end here the people in the 277 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 2: boat are able to succeed by they sever the line 278 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 2: in one place and that allows them to get it 279 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 2: unwrapped from around the manta and they let the manta 280 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 2: swim away. So it seems like the manta gets away 281 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 2: in the end of this, which is heartwarming. In fact, 282 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 2: all these like bro fishermen are like high five in 283 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 2: each other. They're like, yeah, we did it. 284 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 3: It's sweet. 285 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 2: But once again seems like a quite clear case of 286 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 2: like the manta is not doing this on purpose. It's 287 00:15:57,520 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 2: not out here today. Thing say, and I'd like to 288 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 2: drag a boat around it ended up in this situation 289 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 2: against its will. 290 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 3: Yeah. 291 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like you said, the cephalic fins are kind of 292 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: look like natural line catchers. And then they're also just 293 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: quite I mean, they're they're wing shaped, they're they're they're 294 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 1: quite wide. We've talked about their their wingspans, and yeah, 295 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: that's just more real estate to potentially run into a line. 296 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. And so Gil talks about this in his article 297 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 2: and says that these the cephalic fins or cephalic lobes 298 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 2: the kind of horns of the devilfish. 299 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 3: Uh. 300 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 2: They they're like an elephant's trunk. He quotes another author 301 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 2: saying that then they can kind of grasp objects and 302 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 2: pull them in. He says they tend to rapidly kind 303 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 2: of close in around the mouth when something appears in 304 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 2: front of the mouth and uh, and that the the 305 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 2: fish will have a kind of obstinacy in, you know, 306 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 2: refusing to release things that go in like that. Gil 307 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 2: says quote that these arms are muscular and powerful has 308 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 2: been dim on many occasions. The natural movement of the 309 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,880 Speaker 2: head fins or corropteries is inward and when any object 310 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 2: strikes between them, it is instinctively held a proceeding which 311 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 2: explains the undoubted fact that these fishes can run away 312 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 2: with quite large vessels. So Gill's chalking this up to 313 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:23,679 Speaker 2: involuntary motion of the strong cephalic fins closing over things 314 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 2: that hit in the front of the mouth, which occasionally, 315 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:30,160 Speaker 2: in some unlucky circumstances, just happens to be an anchor line. 316 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 2: I think Gil is absolutely correct that these boat dragging 317 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 2: incidents are not aggressive or intentional on the part of 318 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 2: the ray, but is he correct about the mechanism. I 319 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,199 Speaker 2: was looking for modern sources and couldn't really find anything 320 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 2: to confirm or deny his ideas there about the specific 321 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 2: motion of the cephalic fins being involved. But I did 322 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 2: find some commentary from more recent marine biology resources, specifically 323 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 2: something from the organization known as the Manta Trust, which 324 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 2: has a page on the subject of manta mooring line entanglements, 325 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 2: and they highlight some different biological facts which make mooring 326 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 2: line entanglements common for manta rays. Manta rays, like their 327 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 2: cousins sharks, and also like tuna, are obligate ram ventilators, 328 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 2: meaning they do not have the biological equipment needed to 329 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,719 Speaker 2: pump water over their gills when their bodies are at rest. 330 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 2: So in order to make water flow over their gills 331 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:38,679 Speaker 2: so they can extract oxygen from the water and breathe, 332 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 2: they have to move their bodies. So you've probably heard 333 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 2: before that if a shark is forced to hold still, 334 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 2: it will die. It has to swim to breathe. That 335 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 2: is essentially true, and it's true for mantas as well. 336 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 2: Fish that don't have to keep moving to breathe have 337 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:57,360 Speaker 2: what's known as a buckle pump system, where you use 338 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 2: muscles around your mouth and throat to hump fresh water 339 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 2: over the gills. Mantas don't have that. They've got to swim. 340 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: Now, I do want to point out that Joe said 341 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:10,199 Speaker 1: essentially true of sharks, so's we can get into a 342 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 1: deeper discussion maybe in another episode where we talk about 343 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:17,679 Speaker 1: the different behaviors of different types of sharks. You do 344 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,199 Speaker 1: have some shark varieties that live in close to the 345 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: reef that are going to be that can be still 346 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:23,920 Speaker 1: for extended periods of time. 347 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, they might actually have the buckle pumping equipment. But yeah, 348 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 2: like great white sharks, for example, don't they're ram ventilators. 349 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: Exact Yes, absolutely true of great whites, but. 350 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 2: Anyway certainly true of manta rays. They have to swim 351 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 2: in order to breathe. They are also ram ventilators, and 352 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 2: so this means that getting entangled in a line can 353 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 2: be deadly to a manta. If it is stuck and 354 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,640 Speaker 2: it can't swim around, it can't really breathe. And this 355 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 2: might also explain why a manta would keep swimming even 356 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,360 Speaker 2: when it has a boat dragging behind it. It kind 357 00:19:57,359 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 2: of has to swim. Pair of this with a couple 358 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 2: of other biological facts. Mantas can't swim backwards. They are 359 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:08,640 Speaker 2: highly maneuverable fish in a way. They can turn around 360 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 2: and you see them in the water doing these beautiful 361 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 2: summersaults and everything, but it's always with forward motion, which 362 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 2: usually means that the line just gets even more tangled 363 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 2: up on them as they twist and somer salt around 364 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 2: and they would need to really be able to back 365 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 2: up to release the line, but they can't back up. 366 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 1: Great point. 367 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 2: The other thing is that the manta trust says is 368 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 2: they are often not able to see the thin line 369 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:37,919 Speaker 2: of a rope or a chain when it's directly in 370 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:40,919 Speaker 2: front of them. And so you put all this together 371 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 2: and it easily explains how mantas can get tangled in 372 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 2: mooring lines and can end up pulling whatever these lines 373 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:51,440 Speaker 2: are attached to. This is usually not threatening to humans, 374 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 2: but it is very threatening to the ray. Rays often 375 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 2: asphyxiate and die when they get caught in moorings. And 376 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,360 Speaker 2: so the Manta Trust has this document where they make 377 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 2: recommendations for making mooring lines safer for mantas. You can 378 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 2: actually look this document up on their website for the 379 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:10,880 Speaker 2: full recommendations, but they suggest a few measures, like one 380 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 2: just reducing the presence of especially loose line in the water. 381 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 2: Loose or slack lines are more dangerous to raise than 382 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,639 Speaker 2: tight lines. You can probably kind of imagine where they are, Like, 383 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 2: a looser line is easier to get fully just tangled 384 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 2: up in, whereas a taut line, you know, you might 385 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 2: more likely bump into and then something can get yeah. Yeah. 386 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 2: But then also they recommend this interesting system that I 387 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 2: don't know if I would have thought of this, but 388 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 2: this is cool. They recommend attaching cable ties that protrude 389 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,159 Speaker 2: off of mooring lines at a ninety degree angle. So 390 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 2: you imagine, you know, something kind of like zip ties 391 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 2: or something like that, evenly spaced every foot or so 392 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 2: down a mooring line, and they recommend having them go 393 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 2: out around. So there's a little bar sticking off of 394 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 2: the side of the rope going in a spiral around 395 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 2: the rope all the way down. And the idea here 396 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 2: is that it will make the rope more visible to wildlife, 397 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 2: especially they say as you use it, more algae will 398 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 2: attach to the ends of these cable ties, and it 399 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 2: will make them even more visible. And of course, if 400 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:22,640 Speaker 2: the rays can see the mooring lines, they. 401 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:23,239 Speaker 3: Will avoid them. 402 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:24,920 Speaker 2: They're not going to run into them on purpose. 403 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: Okay, So, if I'm understanding the illustration you're attached here, 404 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: it's like a spiral staircase of zip ties going up 405 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: and down this particular line, and then, like you said, 406 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 1: you'll end up with the stuff growing on those ties 407 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: as well. 408 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it makes the rope easy to see in 409 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 2: the water instead of just like a thin kind of 410 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 2: line that is invisible. 411 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 1: Sometimes that makes sense. 412 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 2: However, at the very end here, I do want to 413 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 2: come back with some sympathy for the sailors because obviously 414 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 2: I think we have the correct perspective now, Like we know, 415 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 2: rays are certainly not attacking boats. They're not trying to 416 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 2: kidnap sailors on purpose or drag the boats. You know, 417 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:03,680 Speaker 2: they're not doing this on purpose. But you can very 418 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 2: well you can understand how it would be frightening to 419 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 2: have something under especially if you couldn't see it. I 420 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 2: don't know whether it be scarier actually if you could 421 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 2: see it or if you couldn't. If you could see 422 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 2: it might be like a twenty foot wide manta ray. 423 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's a gigantic sure, And if you don't 424 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: know all the details, like we said last time, you know, 425 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,679 Speaker 1: it's reasonable for a human to be trepidacious about this 426 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 1: enormous creature in the water near them or with them. 427 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you can't see it, just there's something 428 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 2: invisible under the water that's now pulling your boat around 429 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 2: and you don't know where it's taken you. So I 430 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 2: can understand being scared. 431 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:35,199 Speaker 3: I mean like that. 432 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 2: I've got sympathy for that. But yeah, they're not out 433 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,360 Speaker 2: there trying to do this. It's just unfortunate. 434 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 3: It happens sometimes. 435 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: All right, Now, at this point of the episode, I 436 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:55,640 Speaker 1: want to come back and talk in a little more 437 00:23:55,680 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: detail about manta ray reproduction because in the last episode 438 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 1: we talked about how they're particularly vulnerable to various threats, 439 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 1: you know, threats posed by fishing other human harms, in 440 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: large part because of their slow reproductive cycle. So I 441 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,640 Speaker 1: wanted to get a little more into this. One of 442 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,400 Speaker 1: my main sources here again is Guide to the Manta 443 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: and Devil Rays of the World by Stevens Fernando Dando 444 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:26,199 Speaker 1: in Dyscaria. Very good book, lots of illustrations. It's, you know, 445 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,440 Speaker 1: technically like a field guide. I mean, it's not laminated, 446 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 1: you can't take it into the water with you, but 447 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 1: it's a great field guide. And the authors here point 448 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,199 Speaker 1: out that there are a lot of gaps in our 449 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 1: knowledge about manta ray and devil rae reproduction, with most 450 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 1: of what we know coming from observations of reef mantas 451 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 1: and limited scientific data in addition to that. So bear 452 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,200 Speaker 1: that in mind, and I'll tuck back in on that 453 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: fact as well. But manta rays are not like most fish. 454 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,919 Speaker 1: That much we've already established, and it applies to their 455 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:05,719 Speaker 1: reproduction as well. Like all elasmo bronchs that's sharks and 456 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 1: other batomorphs like rays, they practice internal fertilization rather than 457 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: external fertilization, which is practiced by most fish species. So 458 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: they have come so they have to come into direct 459 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: contact with each other in order to mate. Right. 460 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 2: So it's not like releasing unfertilized eggs into the water 461 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:29,200 Speaker 2: which then encounter sperm in the water and become fertilized 462 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:30,639 Speaker 2: externally like many fish do. 463 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:32,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no just like swimming close to each other 464 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: or both visiting the same spot at one point or 465 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: another that they do have to engage and what is 466 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: ultimately rather complex and kind of beautiful and maybe at 467 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 1: times humorous mating ritual. The other amazing thing about manta 468 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: reproduction is that, as with a minority of other fish species, 469 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: they are live bearers, meaning they give live birth via 470 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,679 Speaker 1: an egg that hatches inside the female's uterus. This is 471 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 1: known as a placental viva pair. Now, as many people 472 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: have observed and some of your listeners might be thinking, 473 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 1: this practice would seem to be yet another way that 474 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:11,159 Speaker 1: the manta rays resemble certain whale species. Yeah, you know what, 475 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 1: large oceanic filter feeders that give live birth. 476 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, they could easily be mistaken for a mammal. 477 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, but this is not the same as live mammalian birth. 478 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: And while whales rely on their mothers for the first 479 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 1: phase of their lives, mantas are on their own from 480 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: the moment they're born. They're just small versions of their 481 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,159 Speaker 1: parents that have to just hit the ground running, you know, 482 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: not much smaller, of course, they're still they're still quite big. 483 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: A newborn is typically like one point five to one 484 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 1: point eight meters across, or like five to six feet. Whoa, yeah, 485 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 1: and sometimes it's twins. That's a big baby, all right, 486 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 1: So let's walk through the courtship. I said that it 487 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 1: was beautiful and weird and sometimes funny. Again, Stevens. That 488 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 1: all point out that there's much we don't know. This 489 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,680 Speaker 1: is a general description. A lot of it's based on mantas, 490 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,880 Speaker 1: and they are going to be species specific variations, and 491 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 1: I believe it's possible there may be environmental differences as well, 492 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: depending on where the mantas are. But in general, this 493 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: is how it goes down. So a male will approach 494 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 1: a female and he'll shadow her from above and then 495 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,160 Speaker 1: he may attempt to rub the top of her head 496 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: with his cephalic fence the devil horns, right, and usually 497 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: what's going to take place at this point is she's 498 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: going to shake him. She's going to like, you know, 499 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:30,679 Speaker 1: make a quick turn and say get away from me. 500 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 1: She's just going to reject his advances. 501 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 2: Okay, so devil horn BackRub, and then bolt. 502 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, generally she's gonna bolt. Generally she's going to say 503 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: I'm not in the mood and she's going to go in. 504 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: But if she is interested, what she's going to do 505 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,639 Speaker 1: instead is speed forward. And then he is going to 506 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:51,439 Speaker 1: give chase. And as this chase continues, this is going 507 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 1: to draw in other males who will also give chase. 508 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 1: And we get another situation where we have a line 509 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:02,400 Speaker 1: of manta rays. This time of manta rays speeding through 510 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 1: the water, you know, maybe around wreaths, and these can 511 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,680 Speaker 1: also kind of quickly get to our eyes out at hand, 512 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 1: like a thirty strong zooming train of mantas that occasionally 513 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: leaps out of the water as well. 514 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,640 Speaker 2: This is kind of like the feeding structure you talked 515 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 2: about in the last episode. What was the name of it, 516 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 2: It wasn't cyclone feeding, was it? That was when they 517 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 2: form a ring and they go around and round. But 518 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 2: last time when you talked about how there might be 519 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 2: a big cloud of zooplankton and they're eating them, and 520 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 2: so they line up in this row and they go 521 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 2: through and for some reason they get more food that way. 522 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, chain feeding. So yeah, this is reminiscent of 523 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: chain feeding. 524 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 2: Except not feeding here. This is the first one is 525 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 2: trying to mate. 526 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 3: With the female. 527 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: Well yes, well he's trying to keep up with her, 528 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 1: and in general, she's going to try and shake loose 529 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 1: the less fit pursuers because now she doesn't just have 530 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 1: one manta, she may have up to thirty mantas behind her. 531 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 1: And this is crazy too. She may loop back around 532 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: and start chasing the last male in line. So now 533 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 1: we get another like just ring, another sort of like 534 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 1: mating cyclone here, okay or courtship cyclone I guess okay. 535 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 1: Other females may also be swept up in these processions, 536 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 1: which can result in one line splitting or two lines merging. 537 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: They also the authors here also mentioned that that she 538 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: may end up chasing another female manta as well. So 539 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: this you start with one train of manta's zooming through 540 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 1: the water, and it may go in different directions. It 541 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 1: may split, it may merge, it may loop back around 542 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 1: on itself, you know. And yeah, it's quite spectacular. I'm 543 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: to understand fascinating. Courtship is complicated. Yeah, in the course 544 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: of this, old males are going to fall fall away, 545 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: they can't keep up. New mantas are going to join in. 546 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 1: They're like, well, I'm fresh, I'm ready to go. I 547 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 1: think I might be able to catch her. But the 548 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: author's stress that she's not actually trying to lose anyone. 549 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 1: This isn't one of those cases where where it's like 550 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 1: she doesn't want to mate and it's just whichever male 551 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: can catch her. It's not a mating pursuit like you 552 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 1: see with other species. She's seemingly doing all of this 553 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 1: to merely assess her suitors and determine which one is 554 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 1: displaying the greatest level of fitness. But at the same time, 555 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 1: the end result is going to be only one man 556 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: to ray can still keep up with her. 557 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 2: So you could look at this as a kind of 558 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 2: mass organized mating dance of rich Yeah, yeah. 559 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's very much a situation where it's the 560 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 1: individual with the greatest degree of fitness is going to 561 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 1: be the one that she mates with, and she absolutely 562 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 1: has to be choosy because a lot is writing on 563 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 1: her selection. And this comes again back to the gestation 564 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: period for romantis, which takes a little over a year, 565 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: and given the ups and downs of environmental factors, mainly 566 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: food in the wild, she's generally not going to be 567 00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: able to reproduce every year anyway, Carrying such large spring 568 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 1: to term is costly, and even when food is abundant, 569 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: she's just not going to be able to do it 570 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 1: every year, so there ends up being seasonal gaps and 571 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: this generally breaks down to a pregnancy occurring every two 572 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 1: to three years, but the authors of this book point 573 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 1: out that the rate can be as low as once 574 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 1: every seven years in particular environments. Wow. And another factor 575 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 1: involved here in her choosiness is that she may reproduce, 576 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 1: she may mate rather multiple times during the breeding season, 577 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: but she's going to store sperm from multiple partners. This 578 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 1: is something we see in other organisms as well, and 579 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 1: then she can use the sperm she wants whenever she 580 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 1: finally gets to fertilizer eggs whenever it's not finally the 581 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 1: right time to fertilizer eggs. 582 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, sperm storage like this. I think we've talked 583 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 2: about this happening in some species of sharks also, Yeah, 584 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 2: which of course are closely related to rais. 585 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: So yeah, eventually one male is going to be left. 586 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 1: There can be only one. She's going to slow down 587 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: and allow him to shadow her again, you know, it 588 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 1: be you know, more or less a top of her 589 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 1: shadowing her. But then he is going to bite down 590 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: hard on her left wing tip, hard enough that this 591 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 1: is going to leave scarring. You can you can identify, 592 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 1: you know, females that have bred before in the wild 593 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 1: because they will have this scarring on the on their 594 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 1: left wingtip. I want to say, it's like in the 595 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: high ninety percents that it's the left wing tip. 596 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 2: Interesting. 597 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 1: And once he's he's bit down hard on it, and 598 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 1: I think there's a fair amount of wingtip like going 599 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 1: into his mouth. At this point, he's going to flip 600 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 1: so that now he's belly to belly with her, and 601 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: then he's going to use one of his claspers there 602 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,959 Speaker 1: are two claspers on the male. It's going to use 603 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 1: that to ejaculate sperm into her. Kloeca and then he's 604 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: going to beat his pectoral fins, causing the two of 605 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: them to spiral in the water. This is all going 606 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 1: to last about thirty seconds and then they're going to 607 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 1: go their separate ways. 608 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 2: Wow, that's elaborate. 609 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, there's a whole diagram in the book here 610 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:00,479 Speaker 1: showing how all of this, all this elaborate dance eventually 611 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 1: comes to a closure. 612 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 2: It's funny you mentioned the biting down element because this 613 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 2: squares was something I think I was reading in preparation 614 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 2: for the first episode that we didn't end up talking about. 615 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 3: But the fact that that. 616 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 2: Manta rays don't have teeth that they use for feeding, 617 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,719 Speaker 2: but the teeth are basically, you know, they've got these 618 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 2: little plates, you know, sort of mighty old plates yeeahtle 619 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 2: little tiny amounts of kind of nubby little teeth that 620 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 2: are apparently only used in mating. 621 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 1: At any rate, they definitely bite pretty hard. Again, there 622 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 1: are some photos and you can look up photos of 623 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: mating scars and manta rays. 624 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 2: But so, okay, now the egg is fertilized and you 625 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 2: would have a gestation period. 626 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 1: Right, that's right. Yeah, more than a year of gestation 627 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 1: follows and This is another area where we have to 628 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 1: stress that like we don't have I believed even to 629 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 1: this day, I don't think we have any wild observations 630 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 1: of manda ray birth. At the time of this book's 631 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 1: publication in twenty eighteen, there had been I think just 632 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 1: a single incident of a recorded captive birth at the 633 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 1: Okinawa Aquarium as in I think two thousand and seven. 634 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 1: Since that point, I believe, the same aquarium, and in 635 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 1: some cases the same manta ray, with the same manta ray, 636 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,440 Speaker 1: we've seen subsequent births, with the most recent I believe 637 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 1: being twenty twenty four. You can look up videos. When 638 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:23,320 Speaker 1: I was looking around, there's at least one video that 639 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: was easy to find. Some I think have been taken down, 640 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 1: but you can watch as this obviously pregnant female manta ray, 641 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,080 Speaker 1: and sometimes you see the female manta rays in the wild. 642 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 1: Some of the Snorkel guides that we had in Indonesia 643 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 1: also pointed out that sometimes you'll just see a male 644 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: that happens to be really bloated vaginerally, you can tell 645 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:45,840 Speaker 1: a pregnant female and yeah, you can watch the miracle 646 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:51,800 Speaker 1: of birth as this mother pushes out a rather large 647 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:53,200 Speaker 1: and ready to run Manta. 648 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,439 Speaker 2: I'm watching it right now. It is amazing. Wow. 649 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 3: And oh yeah. 650 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 2: It comes out kind of in a clump and it's 651 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,399 Speaker 2: not moving for a second, and suddenly it just kind 652 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 2: of twitches and then starts jetting around. 653 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 3: Yeah. 654 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 1: I think I've seen this described as kind of like 655 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 1: a burrito. Before their their fins are curled up over 656 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 1: their backs, and you know, there's kind of like a 657 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 1: you know, cloud of material that comes out with them, 658 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:19,759 Speaker 1: and then you know, they start moving and then they 659 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,880 Speaker 1: swim off and they are on their own again. The 660 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 1: there is no mother offspring relationship here. They go their 661 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 1: separate ways. But again, the newborn's actual egg case would 662 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 1: have would have hatched, if to use them perhaps an 663 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: incorrect term here, sometime before inside the female's uterus, and 664 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:43,400 Speaker 1: it would have subsequently fed on the mother's uterine milk, 665 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 1: which in this case is known as histotroph. 666 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,920 Speaker 2: Manta ray uterine milk. I don't think we ever got 667 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 2: into that. We did an episode or a series of 668 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 2: episodes a ways back about non mammalian milk. 669 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's one of those things where is 670 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 1: it really milk? Yeah? No, no, but it kind of 671 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 1: serves the purpose of milk. 672 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, because we talked about like dinosaurs perhaps producing a 673 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:07,400 Speaker 2: milk like substance. 674 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, but again, this is to go back to 675 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 1: what we were talking about in the first episode. This 676 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 1: is all exactly the reason that manta rays have such 677 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,800 Speaker 1: a delicate place in their environments speacause again, long gestation period, 678 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 1: generally a single berth, and it's not happening every year. 679 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,240 Speaker 1: It's you know, there are these big gaps between subsequent births. 680 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:29,879 Speaker 1: So if there's any kind of targeted fishing or any 681 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 1: kind of factor that is that is eating into their population, 682 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: it's it's harder for them to bounce back. 683 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 3: Yeah. 684 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 1: All right, Well we're going to go and close out 685 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 1: this episode. We will be back with I believe one 686 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 1: more episode on manta rays, and it should be an 687 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 1: equally exciting one because we're going to talk about their brains, 688 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 1: we are going to talk about their parasites, and we 689 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 1: will talk about cleaning stations, which if you don't know 690 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 1: much about manta cleaning stations or cleaning stations in general 691 00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,440 Speaker 1: with other species, you might think that this sounds like 692 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 1: the least exciting thing we could talk about, but it's 693 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:06,359 Speaker 1: actually really exciting. Yes, yes, in the meantime, definitely right 694 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:08,799 Speaker 1: into us. We would love to hear from anyone out 695 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 1: there who has experiences encountering manta rays or other rays 696 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:17,280 Speaker 1: in the wild. Do you have any tales of tangled mantas? 697 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: Have you also snorkeled or scuba dived with mantas or 698 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 1: seen them from boats? What are your observations? Share with 699 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: us your observations of the manta. Just a reminder that 700 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,160 Speaker 1: Stuff to Below Your Mind is primarily a science and 701 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,759 Speaker 1: culture podcast with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We 702 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 1: do a short form episode on Wednesdays, and on Fridays 703 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,399 Speaker 1: we set aside most serious concerns to just talk about 704 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 1: a weird film on Weird House Cinema. You can get 705 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,759 Speaker 1: the podcast wherever you get podcasts these days, wherever that 706 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 1: happens to be. We do ask that you rate and review, 707 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,239 Speaker 1: give us some stars. That always helps us out. You 708 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 1: can follow us on social media in various places, and 709 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,359 Speaker 1: we're still trying to build up our Instagram followers. If 710 00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 1: you use Instagram, find us as STBYM podcast Huge Things. 711 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:04,319 Speaker 2: As always to our excellent audio producer, Jj Posway. 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