1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:01,520 Speaker 1: Hi. 2 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:05,160 Speaker 2: I'm Olivia Rodgaard, a reporter for Bloomberg Green. I'm currently 3 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 2: working on a piece about climate anxiety, and I have 4 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:08,800 Speaker 2: requests for zero listeners. 5 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 1: Climate change can. 6 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 2: Cause stress, both of people directly affected by it and 7 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 2: for those concerned about its effects on others and their future. 8 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 2: If you're okay to share your experience of this, we 9 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:20,919 Speaker 2: would love to hear from you. Tell us what makes 10 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:23,159 Speaker 2: you worry, how your worries affect your life, and what 11 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 2: helps you feel better. Take our short survey. There's a 12 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 2: link in the show notes. 13 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: Thank you, Welcome to Zero. I'm Akshatarati. This week outreach 14 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: and optimism in oil country. Today is the start of 15 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:53,279 Speaker 1: COP twenty eight, and for the next two weeks I'll 16 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: be in Dubai in the United Arab Emirates, along with 17 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: more than seventy thousand other people who will come for 18 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: the year's biggest climate conference. It is one of the 19 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:07,320 Speaker 1: most controversial corps in recent memory. It is being hosted 20 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,400 Speaker 1: by an oil dependent nation, and the president of the summit, 21 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 1: Sultan al Jabber, is also the head of the state's 22 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: oil company. Many are worried that it's being run by 23 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: the wrong people at the wrong time, just as the 24 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: world is experiencing record breaking heat, yet representatives of almost 25 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 1: two hundred countries are now gathered here in the Bay 26 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:32,679 Speaker 1: to create a new consensus that will hopefully push the 27 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 1: world closer toward net zero. If things go to plan, 28 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: we should see a global agreement to triple renewables, double 29 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: energy efficiency, phase out fossil fuels, and work out how 30 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: to implement a fund that would compensate vulnerable countries for 31 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: climate impacts. Have no doubt these are difficult negotiations. Getting 32 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: every single country to agree to one common text is 33 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: a gargantuan task. So for this first episode from Copp, 34 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: I wanted to talk with someone who's been on the inside, 35 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: someone who has helped forge these agreements from the ashes 36 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: of broken diplomacy. My guest today is Christiana Figures, who 37 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: is now the co host of the podcast Outrage and 38 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,679 Speaker 1: Optimism and was formerly the head of the UNF Triple C, 39 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,639 Speaker 1: the body tasked with running COP meetings. She took over 40 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: the role at a low point in global climate negotiations 41 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: in twenty ten, just after the COP fifteen meeting in Copenhagen, 42 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: where there were big expectations for a meaningful legally binding agreement. 43 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:39,679 Speaker 1: It didn't come to pass, and the meeting became known 44 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: as Brokenhagen. Christiana arrived in the aftermath and spent the 45 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 1: next five years bringing world leaders together to form a 46 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: new alliance. Her efforts culminated in the signing of the 47 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: Paris Agreement in twenty fifteen. But now the world is 48 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 1: way of track to meet that goal. So I wanted 49 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: to hear from Christiana about what we can expect from 50 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: COP twenty eight, the role of the fossil fuel industry 51 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: in these negotiations, and whether COP is still fit for purpose. 52 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 1: Welcome to the show, Christiana. 53 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you for the invitation. Now. 54 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: You were appointed as the head of the UN after 55 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: PLC in twenty ten. This was a year after the 56 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: Copenhagen COP had ended in failure. 57 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 3: Six months six months. 58 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: After, yes, very soon after, and everyone was pretty down 59 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 1: on climate diplomacy at the time. What were you thinking 60 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: taking over the job of running the event, the organization 61 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: that makes global climate diplomacy happen. 62 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 3: What was I thinking? I was thinking that we would 63 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 3: never ever ever get to a global climate agreement, at 64 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 3: least not in my lifetime. That was my first thought, 65 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 3: because the global mood on climate was so despondent, and 66 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 3: everyone was so angry with each other. No one even 67 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 3: wanted to talk to each other anymore, let alone any 68 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 3: trust in the in the system and in the process. 69 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 3: So it were, they were definitely very very dark days. 70 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:16,919 Speaker 1: And now climate diplomacy frequently splits on party lines, on 71 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:21,600 Speaker 1: developed and developing country lines, on very fossil oriented economies 72 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:26,160 Speaker 1: versus renewable oriented economies. There are just so many divisions. 73 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 1: What did you need to do at that time, right 74 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: after Copenhagen to bring people back to restart and get 75 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,039 Speaker 1: to the point which you did when the Paris Agreement 76 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: was signed. 77 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 3: Well, definitely did not start bridging those devices that you 78 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 3: have mentioned, and you gave a short list of the many, 79 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 3: many device that are there, but rather start much more 80 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 3: humbly enticing people just to come back to the table, 81 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 3: all of which was built on the back of re 82 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 3: energizing the Secretary area itself, which is five hundred people strong, 83 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 3: because they give their lives to this, this is what 84 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 3: they do twenty seven hours a day, and they were 85 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 3: at least partially blamed for the disaster in Copenhagen. So 86 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 3: my first responsibility was to pick them out of the 87 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 3: doldrums and re energize them, remotivate them, and slowly build 88 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 3: them up to the top performing organization that they prove 89 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 3: themselves to be. In the year twenty fifteen, you. 90 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: Wrote a book called The Future We Choose, which came 91 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: a few years earlier than my book will just come 92 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: out this year, And in that I explained this two 93 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: track world where there is progress happening, clearly we can 94 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 1: see it, and yet the progress is very far from 95 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: where we need to be because climate impacts are getting worse. 96 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:50,720 Speaker 1: But coming back to diplomacy, you know, each cop sort 97 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: of builds onto its previous version. This year there is 98 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: a big push on trying to make sure that this 99 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 1: gap that does exist between where we are and where 100 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:06,159 Speaker 1: we need to be can be shrunk and quickly. But 101 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 1: in September you said that cops have become a circus. 102 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 1: When did you lose faith in the process that pushes 103 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:16,839 Speaker 1: global climate diplomacy forward. 104 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 3: I haven't lost faith in the process. That would be 105 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:25,039 Speaker 3: very odd for someone who's dedicated her entire life to that. 106 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 3: I have no idea where you got that impression. Now, 107 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 3: I have definitely not lost faith. What I mean is 108 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 3: that we have to understand that the cops were designed. 109 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 3: And I speak because I joined before COP one something 110 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 3: called the International Negotiating Committee, which was the body that 111 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:49,720 Speaker 3: designed the cops. So I know for a fact that 112 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 3: cops were designed for one purpose, and that is to 113 00:06:54,839 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 3: hold the multilateral process that reaches legally binding agreements. That 114 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 3: is what it was designed to do. It has succeeded. 115 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 3: It has succeeded because in twenty fifteen we adopted the 116 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 3: Paris Agreement, and in twenty twenty one we adopted the 117 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 3: rule book for the Paris Agreement. So substantially, although I 118 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 3: must say there are still some very important parts that 119 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 3: still need this multilateral negotiation process, but substantially we are 120 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 3: in the process of moving from negotiation to implementation. The 121 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 3: cops were never meant to implement. That's the point. Implementation 122 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 3: doesn't happen as the result of negotiation in negotiation halls. 123 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 3: It happens in the real economy. It happens through policies. 124 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 3: It happens through healthy competition, through investments, through innovation and technology. 125 00:07:55,600 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 3: That's where the push is. Now. The question then is 126 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 3: does the COP get redesigned for this new purpose to 127 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 3: support implementation, Does it stay as a multilateral negotiating process, 128 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 3: or do you bring both of these together in a 129 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 3: new way that honesty cannot be what we have now. 130 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know how many people are being 131 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 3: expected at COP twenty eight, but it's it's above sixty thousand, 132 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 3: and you're not going to get sixty thousand people worth 133 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 3: of negotiated agreements. And you wonder whether their time and 134 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:43,679 Speaker 3: effort wouldn't be better used in a different form that 135 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 3: would actually be there to support implementation and to monitor 136 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 3: the pace of implementation, because after all, that is the 137 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 3: purpose of the global stock take, which happens this year 138 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 3: for the first time, mandated by the Paris Agreement. So 139 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 3: as of now, what we really should see is how 140 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,959 Speaker 3: quickly are we implementing the Paris Agreement. 141 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 1: Now, what has happened with COPS is that they've become 142 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: bigger and bigger. As you say, more and more people 143 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: come to them, and the core part of the negotiations 144 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 1: that continue to happen still remain about the same size. 145 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: It's really all the other things that happen on the 146 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 1: outside that are becoming bigger. There's what people call really 147 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,679 Speaker 1: the trade show. People wanting to come and show what 148 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 1: they are doing on trying to reach the Paras agreement, 149 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: or wanting to talk about technology, or just wanting to 150 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: network in a way that is probably needed. But it's 151 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: also happening at a time when we've just had the 152 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 1: hottest year, we are on track to reach a new 153 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: high in emissions in twenty twenty three, and we are 154 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,959 Speaker 1: going into a COP that is being hosted by an 155 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:58,439 Speaker 1: oil producing, oil dependent country and led by a president 156 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: who's the head of the national oil company. It's not 157 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: the first time this is happening. We've had a COP 158 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: in Qatar before, where it was an oil producing nation, 159 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:10,960 Speaker 1: but it was pre paris. What do you think needs 160 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: to happen to make the COP process more effective? Is 161 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: it trimming the number of people going to the COP? 162 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: Is it splitting this into one that does negotiation and 163 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:25,319 Speaker 1: another that does trade show Where do you think COPS 164 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: need to evolve to make us narrow the gap that 165 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: exists between where we are and where we need to be. 166 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 3: Well, it is not for me to decide that. That 167 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 3: is for parties to decide what they want to do. 168 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 3: I would definitely point you toward the party process that 169 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 3: is looking at this, but having said that, it does 170 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:49,959 Speaker 3: seem like first we can't do completely without the multilateral 171 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 3: negotiations because there are some very important parts that have 172 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 3: not been agreed to and that are key importance for 173 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 3: the survival of developing countries. So certainly everything that has 174 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 3: to do with loss and damage we now have theoretically 175 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:12,080 Speaker 3: a fund, but it's definitely not up and running. So 176 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 3: there are some issues that would definitely not just justify, 177 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 3: but necessitate the multilateral negotiating process to continue. Having said that, 178 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:31,319 Speaker 3: the implementation I think could stand a redesign. If that 179 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 3: is the new purpose of yearly meetings, then form follows function. 180 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,439 Speaker 3: And if that is the new function, then how do 181 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 3: you bring it together? How do you sum it up? 182 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 3: How do you use it to let us know how 183 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 3: we are doing with respect to the objectives and the 184 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 3: targets established in the Powers Agreement. That is the piece 185 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 3: that I think needs some serious consideration so that we 186 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 3: would be able to gather the fruits that are put 187 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 3: on the table at cops. On the side that is 188 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 3: non negotiating, but it's not enough to gather the fruits 189 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 3: and put them in a fruit salad. We want to 190 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 3: know how are we doing, And it should have a 191 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 3: much more accountability, more accounting going with it so that 192 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 3: we can know where we are. And I know that 193 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 3: the Executive Secretary of the Climate Convention, Simon Steel, has 194 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 3: already launched a process to begin to think about how 195 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 3: to renew that. 196 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 1: After the break we talk about the big, oily elephant 197 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: in the room, let's address the elephant in the room 198 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 1: going into COP twenty eight, which is the fossil fuel industry. 199 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: You wrote an op ed in July saying that throughout 200 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: your career as a climate diplomat, you've made efforts to 201 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: bring along fossil fuel companies to move climate goals along. 202 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 1: But this time you've said you've had enough that you 203 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 1: were wrong that fossil fuel companies could ever change. What 204 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 1: made you come to that conclusion? And if that is 205 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: the conclusion that we have come to, how do we 206 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 1: deal with that reality when we go into COP twenty eight. 207 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:24,959 Speaker 1: But that many fossil fuel companies showing. 208 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 3: Up, well, first of all, I don't think that we 209 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 3: should drown in a class of water people showing up 210 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 3: at the COP They're going to be thousands of people 211 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 3: showing up at the COP as we know, and how 212 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 3: many oil executives going to show up, I don't know. 213 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 3: We will probably never know, because they can sign in 214 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 3: as anything else. I understand the symbolic significance of that. 215 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 3: Completely understand you don't want to have the tobacco companies 216 00:13:56,080 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 3: come to a health conference. I understand. I totally understand. 217 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 3: I am not minimizing that. But also, at the same time, 218 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 3: let us not be so simplistic as to assume that 219 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 3: the only influence that oil executives can have is through 220 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 3: their physical presence. Let's get down to something that is 221 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 3: more important. I lost patients with the oil companies because 222 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 3: I have seen what they chose to do with their 223 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:37,479 Speaker 3: unprecedented profits over the past year or two. I honestly 224 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 3: had the hope, the expectation, the ambition that seeing as 225 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 3: much cash as they saw for no reason of their own, 226 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 3: just because Russia cruelly invaded Ukraine, I had thought wished 227 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 3: for that they would take part a substantial part of 228 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 3: that cash and invested in to the energy transition, fully 229 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 3: well knowing that is not their business model. But if 230 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 3: they want business continuity, they have to get with the program. 231 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 3: But they chose not to do so. They chose to 232 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 3: give much bigger dividends to their shareholders. They chose to 233 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 3: buy back shares. They chose in the United States to 234 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 3: put a lot of money into lobbying against climate policy, 235 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 3: both at the national and at state level. They chose 236 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 3: to finance a campaign against ESG, on and on and on. 237 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 3: That is deeply disappointing to me, because, yes, I had 238 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 3: the hope that this industry, with the engineering capacity that 239 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 3: it has that is unequaled in any other industry, with 240 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 3: the pockets that they have that is unequaled in any 241 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 3: other industry, I had thought that they would be able 242 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 3: to turn a new leave. They didn't. They chose not to. 243 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 3: In fact, they chose to step back from where they 244 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 3: had stepped forward previously. So that is why I lost 245 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 3: my patience and I lost my hope for them. What 246 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 3: I find very interesting, Akshot is I don't know if 247 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 3: you followed this announcement of Exon mobile buying companies, did 248 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 3: you see. 249 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: That Exon bought Pioneer and Chevron bought hes. Both of 250 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: them have word fifty sixty billion dollars worth of another 251 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: company that is an oil and gas company. 252 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 3: Very interesting, very very interesting, And I've been wondering why. 253 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 3: First of all, why did those companies that are admittedly 254 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 3: much smaller than the ones that purchased them, why did 255 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 3: they allow themselves to be purchased? If the oil and 256 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 3: gas industry had a really rosy picture of the future, 257 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 3: do you think those small companies would allow themselves to 258 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 3: be purchased or would they have continued to go on 259 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:05,119 Speaker 3: their own. 260 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 1: Well, they also did not get as much of a premium. 261 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,360 Speaker 1: So when a company, a big company buys a small company, 262 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:15,160 Speaker 1: it's typically coming with a premium because it will give 263 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: you a little more than what the stock price is 264 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,399 Speaker 1: currently for that small company. The premium in these cases, 265 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 1: both the cases was actually quite small relative to historical 266 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 1: premiums when big oil and gas mergers have happened. The 267 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: other thing that I've understood is that both the companies 268 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:32,479 Speaker 1: that they've bought most of the time they have an 269 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 1: exposure to shale oil, which is a much more short 270 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: term oil production. So if you are as an oil 271 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: company thinking about a future where maybe twenty years from 272 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 1: now oil may not be required as much, but you 273 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 1: want to make short term profits, you want to try 274 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: and capture the market share right now at a greater 275 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: level because oil prices are high, these are quite good 276 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 1: bets from just money making perspective. And so there is 277 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,959 Speaker 1: an idea in economics which called it revealed preference. So 278 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 1: companies may say to you, you know, we believe there's 279 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 1: a lot of room for oil to still grow, that 280 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,920 Speaker 1: the world is not investing enough in oil that they 281 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 1: must and then you look at what they are actually doing. 282 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: Turns out they themselves are not investing in oil. This 283 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 1: is not just happening in USL companies. It's happening even 284 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: with Saudi Aramco. 285 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 3: So you know what I call what's going on musical chairs, 286 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 3: That's what I call it. So and so this is 287 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 3: not a statement of fact. This is just a quirky 288 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 3: little two in the morning idea. And I'm going to 289 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 3: put it in a question mark because it is a question. 290 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 3: Could it be possible that some US based big companies 291 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 3: are already feeling themselves squeezed between quickly diminishing social tolerance 292 00:18:54,640 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 3: and increasing demand destruction which we have already seen, and 293 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 3: therefore their future is not quite as rosy as they thought, 294 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 3: and they're trying to acquire more volume and more assets 295 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 3: that will allow them to be the last man standing 296 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 3: that will allow them to still have a chair when 297 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 3: the music stops. If what they're playing now is musical chairs, 298 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,159 Speaker 3: or what the economy plays now is musical chairs, what 299 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 3: happens if they're getting ready for a showdown? Who is 300 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 3: going to be the last man standing? And I say 301 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 3: man because most of them, with the exception of Cheval, 302 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 3: are led by. 303 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:38,680 Speaker 1: Men, with the exception of oxy Oxy. Thank you if 304 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:42,159 Speaker 1: you take that point of view. Still coming back to COP, 305 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: how do you think we should look at fossil fuel 306 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: company's influence on the COP process. It may be symbolic, 307 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 1: but it is true that we are going into a 308 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: COP in the United Arab Emirates, which is an oil 309 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: dependent economy. 310 00:19:55,480 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 3: Yeah. What I actually think is quite sad is that 311 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 3: doctor Sulton Algebert I think missed a really important opportunity because, 312 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 3: as you have mentioned, he's not just the president of 313 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 3: the oil company, he's the president of a state owned company, 314 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 3: very different, very different than publicly traded. Let's remember that 315 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 3: seventy five percent of all oil and gases in the 316 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 3: hands of state owned companies, and so this could have 317 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 3: been maybe still is an opportunity for the president to 318 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 3: mobilize state owned companies, because those are his peers. His 319 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:41,640 Speaker 3: peers are not Exxon Mobile, Total Shell BP, those are 320 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 3: not his peers. His peers are the state owned companies. 321 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 3: So I think it's actually quite a missed opportunity that 322 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 3: he has not been able to bring state owned companies 323 00:20:54,520 --> 00:21:00,640 Speaker 3: to a more responsible position with respect to climate, because 324 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:04,400 Speaker 3: I do think that it's very interesting shut that we 325 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 3: keep on focusing on the publicly traded companies that are 326 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 3: only twenty five percent of the. 327 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 1: Production in the Cup negotiations. You have said, there are 328 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:19,919 Speaker 1: certainly things that require a multilateral framework, a multilateral discussion, 329 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:24,119 Speaker 1: a multilateral decision making process. One place where that is 330 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 1: crucial is climate finance. Climate finance can be put in 331 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:31,400 Speaker 1: three buckets. You put money towards reducing emissions, you put 332 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,399 Speaker 1: money towards adapting to warming, and then you put money 333 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: towards compensating for the damages that come from climate. All 334 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 1: three buckets need to be funded at different amounts, and 335 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: we'll have a different type of body funding them. But 336 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,919 Speaker 1: the gap that exists, it's trillions of dollars on an 337 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 1: annual basis. If you add all of them up, what 338 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: do you think is the best way in which we 339 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: can make sure that developed countries start to give the 340 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,719 Speaker 1: kind of money that they must to developing countries to 341 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 1: the funding gap on all three buckets. 342 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:05,640 Speaker 3: What is the good news on this first, the good 343 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 3: news is that last year we invested a trillion dollars 344 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,879 Speaker 3: into fossil fuels and a trillion dollars into renewable. This 345 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 3: year we're still investing a trillion dollars into vassal fuels. 346 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 3: I can, I'll believe it. However, we're investing one point 347 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 3: seven into renewable, so you know, it's it's it's the 348 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 3: right direction. Now, as you point out, one point seven 349 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,640 Speaker 3: is good but not sufficient. We actually need to get 350 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:34,440 Speaker 3: to four trillion a year into renewables. However, how interesting 351 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 3: that we have seven trillion dollars a year that are, 352 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:44,199 Speaker 3: according to my sense, misallocated to fossil fuels subsidies, and 353 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 3: that's seven percent of global GDP. So the money is there, right, 354 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:54,439 Speaker 3: It's just a misallocation that is highly political, understand but 355 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 3: correcting even a part of that misallocation would go a 356 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 3: long way. And then, of course, the reform of the 357 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 3: financial system along the lines of the Bridgetown Initiative to 358 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 3: mobilize both short term liquidity for the class response as 359 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 3: well as long term funding for developing countries would be 360 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:17,360 Speaker 3: hugely helpful. And part of that, as we know, is 361 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 3: to buy down the first risk of many of these 362 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 3: investments in the three buckets, so that private capital can 363 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 3: then follow. So it's not like we don't know what 364 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 3: to do. There are very important suggestions out there. What's 365 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 3: missing still, frankly, is political will. 366 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: What should we look out for at COP twenty eight 367 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: this year that would look like success. 368 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,159 Speaker 3: Do you want the ideal or do you want the realistic? 369 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 3: Both the ideal we need to see commitments to transform 370 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:56,239 Speaker 3: energy systems, transform food systems, and transform finance systems. So 371 00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 3: transformation in energy, food and finance, and energy tripling energy 372 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 3: capacity by twenty thirty equitably phase out. We're currently at 373 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:13,919 Speaker 3: phase down, phase out our fossil fuels, especially reallocating subsidies, 374 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 3: and very importantly, because we always forget it, double the 375 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 3: energy efficiency that we have. So those would be the 376 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,959 Speaker 3: three and energy systems and the food systems, and in 377 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 3: nature transform the food systems. I mean we are food 378 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,879 Speaker 3: system around the world is so inefficient and so unfair. 379 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 3: The fact that we still have people who go hungry 380 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 3: when we have enough food production, which is not doing 381 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 3: a good job of where we produce, how we transport, 382 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 3: how we get it. So building the resilience to that, 383 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 3: and then for the non food area of deforestation, increase 384 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:58,160 Speaker 3: lad restoration and revitalize all or degraded ecosystems that are 385 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 3: both water ecosystems as well as land. And on the finance, 386 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 3: we've already touched on it, so you know, the fame 387 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,479 Speaker 3: is one hundred billion. Here we are again ding ding 388 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,920 Speaker 3: ding right, the whole hundred billion? Where are they? And 389 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 3: adaptation finance, loss and damage fund? What is going to 390 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 3: happen with that? Can we get granular with that? And 391 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 3: then reform public finance so the money gets to the 392 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:28,879 Speaker 3: right people and is easily accessible and is enough of 393 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 3: a powerful attractor for private finance to align its investment 394 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:35,400 Speaker 3: plans and portfolios. 395 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 1: That's a great list. Now a realistic one. 396 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 3: A realistic I think we can definitely get a text 397 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 3: that commits everybody to tripling renewables. I think we can 398 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 3: get a text that commits to doubling energy efficiency. I 399 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 3: think those two are possible. I think it is desirable. 400 00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,399 Speaker 3: But can we get it. I'm not sure phase out 401 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 3: of possible fuels. Maybe with some very creative working of 402 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 3: the text, we might be able to get to more 403 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 3: than we have right now, which is phase down fossil fuels. 404 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 3: And I think actually we'll get an uptick on finance, 405 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,120 Speaker 3: not where we need to, but an uptick on finance, 406 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 3: possibly spearheaded by the United Arab Emerts itself. I think 407 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 3: that we will see quite a few coalitions coming out 408 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:34,120 Speaker 3: going into sexual transformations, in fact, city based decarbonization efforts, 409 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,920 Speaker 3: so everything that takes us from individual efforts to collective efforts, 410 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 3: sexual efforts, so going from what I call pilot projects 411 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 3: to much more industry level projects. And I think that 412 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 3: we will begin to see the recognition of the pivot 413 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,120 Speaker 3: from incremental to exponents. 414 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 1: Climate change gets a lot of attention in twenty twenty 415 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: three because climate impacts are every where you see them 416 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 1: and we are hitting all kinds of records. This year's 417 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 1: cop is expected to have as many as one hundred 418 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 1: thousand people. Maybe you entered the climate space at a 419 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: very different time. You've been involved in climate diplomacy since 420 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: the early nineteen nineties. What drew you to climate diplomacy? 421 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:20,440 Speaker 1: In the first. 422 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:25,120 Speaker 3: Place, the disappearance of a species, a tiny little golden 423 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:29,679 Speaker 3: toad that was endemic to one of our reserves here, 424 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:36,160 Speaker 3: conservation reserves. It disappeared in my lifetime, and I quickly 425 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,440 Speaker 3: surmised that if I had witnessed the disappearance of one 426 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 3: species in this tiny, little postage size country of Costa Rica, 427 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 3: that that must be that many other species were disappearing, 428 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 3: and low and behold, once I started studying, Yes, many, many, 429 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 3: many other species have disappeared and continued to disappear. 430 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 1: Now this is despite Costa Rica being the country that 431 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 1: protected its forests. So it was when you looked at 432 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,919 Speaker 1: the disappearance of this toad, it was not because you 433 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 1: weren't doing the work, the country wasn't doing the work. 434 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: It was climate change, a global problem. 435 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,160 Speaker 3: That is correct. And since then I have learned that 436 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 3: scientists have decided that it was the first species to 437 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 3: disappear because of climate change. I didn't know that way 438 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 3: back in the nineties. Scientists didn't know that either, But 439 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 3: now we know, and I just think, let's just remember 440 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 3: that all of us alive right now are the ancestors 441 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 3: of future generations. We think of ancestors only because we 442 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 3: think of our ancestors going up the line, but do 443 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 3: we remember that we currently standing right here are the 444 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 3: ancestors of all generations to come, and are we acting 445 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 3: with the responsibility that we want as ancestors of the future. 446 00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: I could keep talking to you for a very long time. 447 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Christiana. Since recording this interview with Christiana, 448 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 1: the BBC and the Center for Climate Reporting published an 449 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: article that alleged that Sultan al Jabber used his role 450 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: as COP twenty eight president to push for fossil fuel 451 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: deals when speaking with members of foreign governments. A spokesperson 452 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: for COP twenty eight said the article was inaccurate. Responding 453 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 1: to the report, Christiana said, this is the Volkswagen twenty 454 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: fifteen moment for the COP twenty eight presidency got red handed. 455 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 1: The COP presidency has no other option but to now 456 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 1: unequivocally step up the transparency, responsibility and accountability with which 457 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 1: they lead the process. Thank you for listening to zero. 458 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 1: We'll be at COP twenty eight for the next two weeks. 459 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 1: For that entire time, the payball on bloombergreen is lifted 460 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 1: so you can read all of our coverage from CORP 461 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: and our entire archive for free. We also have the 462 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: Bloomer Green newsletter, which will be publishing twice daily during 463 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: the summit. Sign up for free at Bloomberg dot com. 464 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 1: There's a link in the show notes. If you like 465 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 1: this episode, please take a moment to rate a review 466 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Share this episode with a 467 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: friend or with someone who loves toads. You can get 468 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 1: in touch at zero pod at Bloomberg dot net. Zero's 469 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: producer is Oscar Boid and senior producer is Christine Riskell. 470 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 1: Our theme music is composed by Wonderly Special thanks to 471 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 1: Kira bendram I am Akshatrati. 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