WEBVTT - Jacob Collier, Part 1 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:23.396 Pushkin. Today's the first of two episodes featuring a musical 0:00:23.476 --> 0:00:29.196 genius multi instrumentalist, Jacob Collier. In twenty eleven, when Jacob 0:00:29.236 --> 0:00:32.316 was only seventeen, he began posting videos to YouTube of 0:00:32.396 --> 0:00:35.796 himself singing and playing music. They were a massive hit. 0:00:36.676 --> 0:00:39.636 His breakout video, a rendition of Stevie Wonders Don't You 0:00:39.636 --> 0:00:43.036 Worry About a Thing, received millions of views and praise 0:00:43.116 --> 0:00:47.716 from musical legends like Herbie Hancock, David Crosby and even 0:00:47.796 --> 0:00:51.916 Quincy Jones. Since then, he's gone on to release five albums, 0:00:52.036 --> 0:00:55.356 including his twenty sixteen debut In My Room, and in 0:00:55.396 --> 0:00:58.996 twenty twenty two's Piano Ballads, an eleven track album of 0:00:59.076 --> 0:01:02.636 improvised piano pieces he played at various shows during a 0:01:02.756 --> 0:01:08.756 recent tour. Throughout his career, Jacob's collaborated with artists like Sissa, Coldplay, 0:01:09.196 --> 0:01:13.996 Hi Dollar Sign, Tory Kelly, Daniel Caesar and her He's 0:01:13.996 --> 0:01:17.036 also won five Grammy Awards and is the first UK 0:01:17.156 --> 0:01:19.516 artist to win a Grammy for each of his first 0:01:19.636 --> 0:01:23.676 four albums. On today's episode, Bruce Hellam speaks with Jacob 0:01:23.716 --> 0:01:27.076 Collier about the making of his latest live album, his 0:01:27.236 --> 0:01:32.636 creative process, and his musical admiration for Stevie Wonder. Jacob 0:01:32.676 --> 0:01:37.756 also plays piano throughout the two episodes, illustrating advanced musical concepts. 0:01:38.596 --> 0:01:41.636 These conversations with Jacob are the world's most interesting music 0:01:41.676 --> 0:01:49.716 theory class ever, a masterclass. This is broken record liner 0:01:49.796 --> 0:01:53.316 notes for the digital age. I'm justin Mitchell. Before we 0:01:53.316 --> 0:01:56.716 get into the conversation, here's Jacob Collier's live rendition of 0:01:56.836 --> 0:03:05.396 Can't Help Falling in Love? Wis males only fools rushing? 0:03:12.196 --> 0:03:39.316 But I can hell falling in love? Over shoot? I stay? 0:03:41.356 --> 0:03:58.076 Would it be onon VI? Con hell falling in Love? 0:04:02.116 --> 0:04:19.476 Year like the river flows surely to the sea Doe 0:04:19.716 --> 0:04:44.756 and so he goes somethings are my take, my take, 0:04:44.876 --> 0:05:04.276 my horse life to because I can falling in love? 0:05:49.676 --> 0:05:53.116 Jacob Collier, thank you so much having me. It's great 0:05:53.116 --> 0:05:55.516 to have you here, you know, as part of your 0:05:55.956 --> 0:05:59.836 quest to remake all of Western music. Oh gosh, is 0:05:59.836 --> 0:06:02.156 that my quest? It seems to be your quest. You're 0:06:02.236 --> 0:06:05.836 very busy. That was the old Elvis tune. Yes, indeed, 0:06:05.996 --> 0:06:08.996 and that's from your new album Piano Ballads, Sure which 0:06:09.116 --> 0:06:10.996 first tell me just a little bit about the album, 0:06:11.076 --> 0:06:12.876 and then I have many, many questions about what you 0:06:12.956 --> 0:06:14.956 just played, but first tell me just the idea behind 0:06:14.996 --> 0:06:17.436 the album. Sure thing, Okay. So I've just been on 0:06:17.476 --> 0:06:20.396 tour this year, which has been very cathartic, especially after COVID, 0:06:21.036 --> 0:06:23.516 and I've done seventy shows so far. One of the 0:06:23.596 --> 0:06:26.396 challenges that I set myself in order to kind of 0:06:26.436 --> 0:06:29.516 keep myself on my toes was in every show I 0:06:29.636 --> 0:06:32.556 was to play a different piano ballad, and that the 0:06:32.676 --> 0:06:36.596 rule was this piano ballad was totally improvised. As long 0:06:36.636 --> 0:06:38.876 as I know the song, I let whatever comes out 0:06:38.956 --> 0:06:41.556 come out, and that is what it is. And so 0:06:41.836 --> 0:06:44.156 many of the ballots on tour i'd actually never rehearsed 0:06:44.196 --> 0:06:47.116 or played ever before. And I sat on stage in 0:06:47.156 --> 0:06:48.956 the show and I thought, right, I'm going to do 0:06:48.956 --> 0:06:52.636 a rendition of X or y or Z and just 0:06:52.716 --> 0:06:54.876 kind of see what happens. And it was very interesting 0:06:55.036 --> 0:06:57.796 to follow my energy throughout the tour and see which 0:06:57.876 --> 0:07:01.596 ballads kind of ended up connecting with me and connecting 0:07:01.596 --> 0:07:04.276 with the crowd. And I really loved the experience so 0:07:04.356 --> 0:07:06.196 much that I thought it would be nice to share 0:07:06.436 --> 0:07:09.316 a kind of vignette of my most favorite ballot. So 0:07:09.396 --> 0:07:11.636 I released this album about a month ago now, and 0:07:11.756 --> 0:07:15.196 it's eleven of the seventy and it's my absolute favorite 0:07:15.476 --> 0:07:17.516 ballads thus far. I'm going to keep on doing this 0:07:17.556 --> 0:07:20.276 throughout the rest of the year of touring. But that song, 0:07:20.476 --> 0:07:22.516 which I always think of, it's been called wise men 0:07:22.556 --> 0:07:24.436 say it. Actually it's called Can't Help Falling in Love. 0:07:25.236 --> 0:07:28.716 It's a yeah, one of the greatest songs that I've 0:07:28.716 --> 0:07:32.396 ever encountered. I performed that on tour actually using my 0:07:32.476 --> 0:07:35.236 vocal harmonizer, which is an instrument that I had custom built. 0:07:35.956 --> 0:07:38.196 I collaborated with my very different Ben Bloomberg, and we 0:07:38.196 --> 0:07:40.316 built this instrument together, and there's a performance of the 0:07:40.356 --> 0:07:43.116 song through that instrument. It's like almost like a vocoda. 0:07:43.396 --> 0:07:44.596 But I thought today I would play it on the 0:07:44.596 --> 0:07:46.516 piano because I've never done that before. So that was 0:07:46.876 --> 0:07:49.676 a spontaneous rendition. Do you remember the first time you 0:07:49.756 --> 0:07:51.956 heard that song. I can't remember the first time I 0:07:51.996 --> 0:07:53.556 heard that song. It was probably a few years ago. 0:07:53.596 --> 0:07:55.996 It's such a classic tune and so many people have 0:07:56.516 --> 0:07:59.956 reinvented it with such vigor and personality. So I've always 0:07:59.996 --> 0:08:02.156 been drawn to the song, but I've never really thought 0:08:02.156 --> 0:08:04.596 to do it until now, but that song was special 0:08:04.596 --> 0:08:07.036 on tour for another reason, which is that across the 0:08:07.396 --> 0:08:10.676 US portion of the tour, in every show of the tour, 0:08:11.076 --> 0:08:13.356 I had the audience sing one word from that song, 0:08:13.956 --> 0:08:17.836 and so in Portland they sang wise, and then in 0:08:17.956 --> 0:08:20.436 Vancouver they saying man, and then in Seattle they sang 0:08:20.476 --> 0:08:22.556 say like this, and it went on like this, and 0:08:22.636 --> 0:08:25.316 it just so happened, by complete coincidence that by the 0:08:25.356 --> 0:08:27.596 final show of the tour, which was in Columbus, we've 0:08:27.636 --> 0:08:29.676 done every word of the song exactly to the number, 0:08:29.716 --> 0:08:33.076 which is completely unplanned. But what I then did when 0:08:33.076 --> 0:08:34.916 I got home was string all the cities together and 0:08:34.956 --> 0:08:37.076 you have this great, big, long rendition of the song 0:08:37.556 --> 0:08:40.196 which is about one hundred thousand people singing together, which 0:08:40.236 --> 0:08:45.396 is such a philosophically dreamy and sound idea in my mind. 0:08:45.796 --> 0:08:48.036 And so I actually just I released the video of 0:08:48.076 --> 0:08:50.636 that about a week ago now, because I actually had 0:08:50.676 --> 0:08:53.516 every member of the audience record themselves singing the word 0:08:53.516 --> 0:08:55.796 with their phone, and there was a QR code hanging 0:08:55.836 --> 0:08:58.196 above the merch table at every show, and so at 0:08:58.236 --> 0:08:59.876 the end of the show, the audience members would scan 0:08:59.956 --> 0:09:02.436 the videos into the QR code and send them to 0:09:02.476 --> 0:09:04.996 me at home, and when I got home I compiled 0:09:05.076 --> 0:09:08.236 it was over ten thousand submissions of different videos, and 0:09:08.276 --> 0:09:10.036 in total the number of things, as I say, about 0:09:09.996 --> 0:09:12.116 one hundred thousand. And I spent a lot of time 0:09:12.196 --> 0:09:14.076 editing all of that audio together and worked with an 0:09:14.116 --> 0:09:17.676 incredible video team whose name is Light Sale, and they 0:09:17.716 --> 0:09:20.276 and I edited all these little faces. So if you 0:09:20.316 --> 0:09:23.196 if you watched the video, there's all these little mosaic 0:09:23.276 --> 0:09:25.636 tiles of these audience members, each from each city, singing 0:09:25.636 --> 0:09:27.796 each word of the song. There's something, I think in 0:09:27.836 --> 0:09:30.356 that song that everyone can connect to. You know, there 0:09:30.436 --> 0:09:32.436 is something listening to this album and really listening to 0:09:32.516 --> 0:09:36.156 it despite your technical skill, which we're going to get 0:09:36.156 --> 0:09:38.956 to in a minute. There's something very old fashioned about 0:09:39.156 --> 0:09:42.156 people singing sitting around at piano. What happens to be 0:09:42.156 --> 0:09:44.476 you at the piano. But there's something very and maybe 0:09:44.516 --> 0:09:47.116 there's a post pandemic feeling, something very comforting about it. 0:09:48.236 --> 0:09:51.156 Well for me, I definitely feel comforted. I think to me, 0:09:51.196 --> 0:09:53.796 I've spent much of my life and career making these 0:09:53.876 --> 0:09:57.436 kind of multilayered tapestries of sound, and for me, it's 0:09:57.436 --> 0:09:59.476 always been such an important place to kind of learn, 0:09:59.596 --> 0:10:01.716 but also to share just by sitting at the piano 0:10:01.716 --> 0:10:05.836 and playing. And so yeah, it felt like an important 0:10:05.956 --> 0:10:07.596 thing on the tour, just to have a moment in 0:10:07.676 --> 0:10:10.636 amongst the chaos of the full production, because tours it 0:10:10.716 --> 0:10:12.956 is a vast thing. You know, there's six of us 0:10:12.956 --> 0:10:16.036 in the band, there's lights, there's staging, there's about one 0:10:16.116 --> 0:10:17.956 hundred musical instruments on the stage and we're all hopping 0:10:17.956 --> 0:10:19.556 around between all of them. It's it's a lot of fun. 0:10:19.836 --> 0:10:21.236 But this moment in the show where I just sit 0:10:21.276 --> 0:10:23.356 and play a song on the piano feels, as you say, 0:10:23.436 --> 0:10:27.676 an intimate, comforting and rather old fashioned. The anticipation of 0:10:27.676 --> 0:10:29.676 the crowd you can feel when they recognize the song 0:10:30.276 --> 0:10:35.716 firstly and then they're invited to sing tremendous release for them. Yeah, yes, 0:10:35.796 --> 0:10:38.876 I think so. I love it when everyone sings together. Now, 0:10:39.196 --> 0:10:41.276 I want to ask a little bit about when you 0:10:41.276 --> 0:10:43.756 sit down at the piano in one of these concerts 0:10:43.996 --> 0:10:46.036 and you think I'm going to play this song, do 0:10:46.076 --> 0:10:47.396 you know the key you're going to sing it in 0:10:47.556 --> 0:10:49.596 when you sit down. No, I normally decide at the 0:10:49.676 --> 0:10:51.996 end of the introduction, So I'll sit and play a 0:10:51.996 --> 0:10:53.756 few notes, and it's like following your nose, you know. 0:10:53.796 --> 0:10:56.956 You think, oh, I'll play, you know, oh, and then 0:11:01.116 --> 0:11:03.236 and then suddenly I'm in F sharp. I don't know why, 0:11:03.356 --> 0:11:05.956 but that just fell out, you know. So so oftentimes 0:11:05.956 --> 0:11:08.516 I'll start playing, and I'll play for a couple of minutes, 0:11:08.516 --> 0:11:10.636 and sometimes I haven't even decided what song I'm going 0:11:10.676 --> 0:11:12.396 to play, you know, until the end of that introduction, 0:11:12.476 --> 0:11:13.636 I think, do you know, I think I'm going to 0:11:13.716 --> 0:11:15.396 do How Deep is Your Love? Or I think I'm 0:11:15.436 --> 0:11:18.796 going to do Caledonia or whatever. Yeah, and the other 0:11:18.836 --> 0:11:20.796 thing I'd like to do it just because it's fun, 0:11:20.836 --> 0:11:23.076 and sometimes it really helps tell the story of the song. 0:11:23.196 --> 0:11:25.276 Is is change key throughout? So you may start in 0:11:25.356 --> 0:11:27.556 one key and then move to a different keys as 0:11:27.556 --> 0:11:31.116 the song continues. If I'm taken there, so one thing 0:11:31.516 --> 0:11:32.996 you were doing, and I'm not sure if you did 0:11:32.996 --> 0:11:35.996 it this time, you're modulating, Yeah, from key to key. Yes, 0:11:36.756 --> 0:11:41.356 and you're also reharmonizing. That's true. Can you just briefly 0:11:41.356 --> 0:11:45.076 explain what that means? Yeah, sure, I'll hop to the piano. 0:11:44.756 --> 0:11:51.316 So modulating is the idea of moving the gravity of home, right, 0:11:51.396 --> 0:11:54.316 like musical home. So with this song. If I do 0:11:54.716 --> 0:12:02.276 wise men say this is my home, I'm a F 0:12:02.436 --> 0:12:09.356 major today, if I went that's a different key that's 0:12:09.396 --> 0:12:14.356 in D flat or I mean a right. So on 0:12:14.436 --> 0:12:16.876 the piano, we have twelve keys, and there's all sorts 0:12:16.916 --> 0:12:18.996 of ways to move between them. But one of the 0:12:19.036 --> 0:12:20.636 things I'd really like to do most is, yeah, as 0:12:20.636 --> 0:12:22.556 I said, to find a way from one key to another. 0:12:23.076 --> 0:12:25.676 And it can feel really like a bigger lift when 0:12:25.676 --> 0:12:28.476 you change key. What's the hinge you use to move 0:12:28.516 --> 0:12:31.116 from one key to another? You know, in modulation they 0:12:31.156 --> 0:12:33.276 heard at the end of songs, you know Willie Nelson 0:12:33.316 --> 0:12:36.276 goes up a tone, right, Yeah, are you just looking 0:12:36.276 --> 0:12:39.476 for common tones between the notes, because you don't, you 0:12:39.516 --> 0:12:42.356 don't just modulate up a tone like you're just not 0:12:42.476 --> 0:12:46.276 there for like slightly higher. Yeah, you're You're like, there's 0:12:46.316 --> 0:12:48.796 a different degree of difficulty. So when you're when you're 0:12:48.796 --> 0:12:51.076 moving from one key to another, what's the signal that 0:12:51.156 --> 0:12:52.996 you can do it? What I found myself doing is 0:12:53.036 --> 0:12:56.076 building bridges from one key to another. So say, for example, 0:12:56.316 --> 0:12:59.716 if I'm an F, which i am this note, a 0:13:02.156 --> 0:13:05.756 right A exists in other keys besides, so for example, 0:13:05.876 --> 0:13:11.916 D R a ism in D major and in F major. 0:13:12.116 --> 0:13:19.836 It lives in both both worlds, right, So there are 0:13:19.836 --> 0:13:22.956 all sorts of ways you can move between keys. But 0:13:22.996 --> 0:13:24.836 if I end up singing an A, if I go 0:13:25.276 --> 0:13:35.596 faalling right, then I've moved changed. But the A was 0:13:35.596 --> 0:13:38.156 my bridge from one to the other. You know, It's 0:13:38.156 --> 0:13:41.836 almost like visualizing different different kind of tributaries away from 0:13:41.836 --> 0:13:45.156 the river that you're sailing down and then kind of 0:13:45.196 --> 0:13:47.956 having faith that you'll find a way there, because a 0:13:47.996 --> 0:13:50.476 lot of the things that happen when you imbroise happened 0:13:50.676 --> 0:13:53.676 by chance. And if you're too contrived about it, or 0:13:53.716 --> 0:13:55.396 even too thoughtful about it, then it can it can 0:13:55.396 --> 0:13:58.436 remove the natural storytelling of the thing. When I spent 0:13:58.516 --> 0:14:00.756 many hours of my life sitting at the piano and 0:14:01.036 --> 0:14:04.996 thinking about these different sounds and how they connect to 0:14:05.036 --> 0:14:06.636 each other. But when I sit on stage and sing 0:14:06.636 --> 0:14:07.996 a song, I'm not thinking about any of that stuff. 0:14:08.036 --> 0:14:10.116 I'm just singing the song. And it may it may 0:14:10.236 --> 0:14:12.636 end up that I find myself starting in F and 0:14:12.716 --> 0:14:14.476 ending in D flat. You know, it might just be 0:14:14.516 --> 0:14:17.316 one of those days, And you can turn off the 0:14:18.116 --> 0:14:20.636 more deliberate part of your brain to do that well, 0:14:20.876 --> 0:14:23.236 to me. It's a bit like talking the English language. 0:14:23.276 --> 0:14:25.276 I'm not consciously thinking as I'm talking to you about 0:14:25.316 --> 0:14:28.276 grammar or spelling, you know, even though those things are 0:14:28.276 --> 0:14:30.916 helpful to think about when I'm learning how to put 0:14:30.916 --> 0:14:34.036 my language together, it helps me contextualize things. But when 0:14:34.036 --> 0:14:37.876 I'm talking to you now, I'm improvising based on my syntax, 0:14:37.956 --> 0:14:40.316 my sort of internalized syntax, which comes from people I've 0:14:40.356 --> 0:14:43.476 listened to talk and time I've spent thinking about words 0:14:43.476 --> 0:14:45.756 and writing words and practicing talking a lot at home 0:14:45.756 --> 0:14:47.796 when I was a kid, you know. So it's a 0:14:47.836 --> 0:14:51.716 similar approach I think to playing. I can tune into 0:14:51.996 --> 0:14:54.396 what the chords are, you know. I know, for example, 0:14:54.436 --> 0:14:56.996 that the A is a third. I could describe it 0:14:57.036 --> 0:15:00.516 as a third, but it's also just the note, you know. 0:15:00.516 --> 0:15:01.956 It doesn't have to be called a third or have 0:15:01.956 --> 0:15:04.636 a name at all. But I understand the kind of 0:15:04.636 --> 0:15:10.636 emotional properties of that note, all the ways it can move, 0:15:16.556 --> 0:15:20.276 and you can follow those things. So it's melodies, harmonies, rhythms, 0:15:20.396 --> 0:15:22.596 all these things kind of connect. But yeah, I don't 0:15:22.636 --> 0:15:25.916 tend to be particularly thoughtful on stage. Sometimes there are 0:15:25.996 --> 0:15:27.276 days where I am, and I think those are the 0:15:27.356 --> 0:15:29.956 days where I'm I'm I'm in myself, you know, I'm 0:15:29.996 --> 0:15:32.436 within my own world, and it's it's sometimes harder in 0:15:32.476 --> 0:15:34.756 that space to really tell a story and connect with 0:15:34.756 --> 0:15:36.876 a room. I think there's an old expression in jazz, 0:15:36.916 --> 0:15:38.476 now it's time to forget all that shit and just 0:15:38.516 --> 0:15:41.076 play exactly. Yeah, I couldn't put it better myself, So 0:15:41.156 --> 0:15:46.236 that's modulating. We didn't talk about reharmonizing, which is something 0:15:46.316 --> 0:15:49.196 you do. When I say you're remaking Western music, you're 0:15:49.276 --> 0:15:51.796 essentially reharmonizing Western music. As far as I can tell, 0:15:51.996 --> 0:15:54.076 it is one of my hobbies. Yeah, show me one 0:15:54.076 --> 0:15:56.596 of two of the things you did to reharmonize that tune. 0:15:57.236 --> 0:16:04.916 So this dude goes right. It's very simple tune, Slae 0:16:04.916 --> 0:16:06.956 because every note I've just realised, every note from that 0:16:06.996 --> 0:16:10.036 song is actually in one scale, the major scale. It's 0:16:10.196 --> 0:16:15.836 very lovely and welcome sound to most ears. So when 0:16:15.916 --> 0:16:17.796 you think about harmonizing and this, I might get a 0:16:17.836 --> 0:16:20.236 bit nerdier, But when you think about harmonizing, you're essentially 0:16:20.276 --> 0:16:23.236 departing home and arriving home. That's like, in a nutshell, 0:16:23.276 --> 0:16:25.596 that's what you're doing with a song like this. So 0:16:25.676 --> 0:16:30.996 basically I'm going that's what I'm that's the journey in 0:16:31.516 --> 0:16:33.396 a very very crude sense. So there are all sorts 0:16:33.436 --> 0:16:36.436 of ways you can depart from home, right, And when 0:16:36.436 --> 0:16:40.076 we think about harmonization, it's easy and pleasurable to think about, 0:16:40.436 --> 0:16:44.156 for example, the idea of localities. You know, keys that 0:16:44.196 --> 0:16:47.196 are neighbors to f and I think that the two 0:16:47.276 --> 0:16:51.876 most kind of most sound neighbors to ff fs are 0:16:51.916 --> 0:16:53.956 called one, you could say, is called four, which is 0:16:53.996 --> 0:16:57.916 B flat just around the corner, and called five, which 0:16:57.956 --> 0:17:02.756 is around the other corner, right. And actually you can 0:17:02.796 --> 0:17:05.116 play chord one, four, and five. You can play almost 0:17:05.196 --> 0:17:07.396 every song that's ever been written, because so many songs 0:17:07.436 --> 0:17:10.076 are made from those chords. And there are all sorts 0:17:10.116 --> 0:17:11.876 of permutations of these chords. So even if you just 0:17:11.916 --> 0:17:15.036 take the chord F major, if you reorganize the notes 0:17:15.076 --> 0:17:21.596 in that chord, then you have what's called inversions of 0:17:21.596 --> 0:17:23.836 the chord, which are like different sensations, different ways in 0:17:23.836 --> 0:17:25.476 which that chord can feel. So we call this one 0:17:25.636 --> 0:17:29.996 root position, like it's most grounded form. This one. It's 0:17:30.036 --> 0:17:33.556 slightly more it's like it's perhaps on its waist somewhere. 0:17:33.756 --> 0:17:35.836 It's still grounded, but it's it's it's it's moving. It's 0:17:35.876 --> 0:17:37.876 it's not stable because the third, the A is in 0:17:37.916 --> 0:17:42.036 the base, right, so maybe it wants to go there, right, 0:17:42.636 --> 0:17:45.796 it wants to move. And then the final one it's 0:17:45.836 --> 0:17:48.236 actually I really this inversion. This is called second inversion, 0:17:48.436 --> 0:17:49.916 and it's when we have the fifth in the base. 0:17:50.396 --> 0:17:52.476 And I really like this in version because it's like you, 0:17:52.476 --> 0:17:56.236 you are arrived, you are here, but you're not really 0:17:56.236 --> 0:18:05.476 you're not here. You're just kind of purging, right, You're 0:18:05.516 --> 0:18:07.996 you're you, you've arrived, but you're you haven't fully arrived. 0:18:08.036 --> 0:18:10.836 And so when I think about these chords and harmonization 0:18:10.916 --> 0:18:14.156 re harmonization, I'm using these chords as kind of emotional 0:18:14.196 --> 0:18:16.836 devices to tell stories. So the idea of how home 0:18:16.916 --> 0:18:19.716 you are, that's a concept that it's not that's not 0:18:19.876 --> 0:18:23.836 musical in nature, that's human. So human concept. I'm this 0:18:23.956 --> 0:18:27.756 amount pulled home, or I am this amount safe or 0:18:27.796 --> 0:18:29.676 this amount stable. You know that these are things that 0:18:29.676 --> 0:18:33.396 we understand as people. And so you as a harmonizer 0:18:34.156 --> 0:18:38.196 have all sorts of devices as to how how you 0:18:38.196 --> 0:18:42.716 want to move people. So stay with these first three notes. Well, 0:18:42.876 --> 0:18:47.796 I could just do and that doesn't go anywhere really, 0:18:47.796 --> 0:18:51.316 but or I could just do, which is a slight, 0:18:51.356 --> 0:18:53.716 sweeter version of again not really going anywhere. But if 0:18:53.756 --> 0:19:00.476 I went, then I've moved somewhere, and that's a bit drastic, 0:19:00.716 --> 0:19:03.956 perhaps the first phrase of the song. But F, which 0:19:03.996 --> 0:19:06.316 exists in F major, also exists in D flat major, 0:19:06.436 --> 0:19:08.236 which is where I just went to. And that's cool 0:19:08.276 --> 0:19:10.796 because flat major is actually it's quite foreign to F. 0:19:11.036 --> 0:19:16.836 It's quite far away key. And so what you can 0:19:16.916 --> 0:19:19.676 do when you harmonize is you can really take people 0:19:19.676 --> 0:19:29.396 by surprise. Right, I mean a chord like that, it's 0:19:29.796 --> 0:19:33.436 very austere. It's a kind of bitter sweet chord because 0:19:33.476 --> 0:19:36.676 these notes are tugging on each other and these notes 0:19:36.676 --> 0:19:41.516 are stable, and that note is sour, you know, compared 0:19:41.556 --> 0:19:51.156 to the sweetness of this, Right you think, oh, and 0:19:51.196 --> 0:19:53.836 I mean again, it's it's just storytelling. Tell me, what's 0:19:53.876 --> 0:19:56.436 the chord you're playing now? This chord, well, it's you 0:19:56.476 --> 0:19:59.156 could call it a B a B major seven sharp five, 0:19:59.396 --> 0:20:02.796 so it's a B major with a seven and a six. 0:20:03.236 --> 0:20:05.956 But the fifth, which is this is actually sharpened, so 0:20:06.116 --> 0:20:08.796 it's it's what we call like an augmented chord. I 0:20:08.836 --> 0:20:12.756 suppose an augmented chords are naturally quite quite stretched and open. 0:20:12.796 --> 0:20:16.436 It's like an unnaturally large open gap. But if I 0:20:16.636 --> 0:20:21.556 were to do that, oh, I've ready made some contrast. 0:20:21.596 --> 0:20:28.276 And now when I go and you start to really 0:20:28.276 --> 0:20:31.796 paint pictures, you create tension and you release tension. And 0:20:31.836 --> 0:20:34.356 so you know this obviously when you're practicing this and 0:20:34.556 --> 0:20:37.516 sitting at the piano, you're thinking, you're, okay, what are 0:20:37.556 --> 0:20:39.236 these core? How do they fit together? What are my 0:20:39.316 --> 0:20:41.236 common tones? But when you sit on stage and improvise, 0:20:41.476 --> 0:20:44.276 you're just painting a picture from from your mind, you know. 0:20:44.356 --> 0:20:56.276 So it's a split second decision. Sweeten, it up lead 0:20:56.316 --> 0:21:03.596 at home, away from home, heading towards home, and I'm 0:21:03.596 --> 0:21:17.636 not going to change key because I feel like it, Sweeten, 0:21:18.676 --> 0:21:31.316 I've changed key. Change key again. So I actually started 0:21:31.316 --> 0:21:32.756 an F and then I went to D flat, and 0:21:32.756 --> 0:21:34.996 then I would end up in E flat, which I 0:21:34.996 --> 0:21:37.476 didn't really plan. But but these these kinds of things 0:21:37.516 --> 0:21:40.956 happen not only when you have you've acquired at a 0:21:41.036 --> 0:21:44.556 language of sorts, but also mainly when you're just fearless 0:21:44.636 --> 0:21:46.036 enough to give stuff a go. You think, oh, what 0:21:46.076 --> 0:21:48.556 would happen if I did this? And then you try 0:21:49.276 --> 0:21:52.156 and sometimes it's great, and sometimes it's it's horrendous, you know, 0:21:52.196 --> 0:21:53.876 But I'm kind of here for all of it. And 0:21:53.876 --> 0:21:55.956 I think that one of the joys of touring in 0:21:55.956 --> 0:21:58.916 this way is that all the imperfections of figuring this 0:21:58.916 --> 0:22:01.636 stuff out in real time, it's all shared as an experience. 0:22:01.676 --> 0:22:04.676 It's I'm not keeping this to myself or it's just 0:22:04.716 --> 0:22:07.476 for me to hear in my practice room or closed environment. 0:22:07.476 --> 0:22:09.636 I think you always learn most when you put yourself 0:22:09.636 --> 0:22:11.596 in the real world and learn a skill, and I 0:22:11.636 --> 0:22:14.756 think that for me, this experience on tour was almost 0:22:14.796 --> 0:22:19.036 like a determination to learn how to do this freely 0:22:19.196 --> 0:22:23.556 and truly be comfortable with whatever kind of gets thrown 0:22:23.596 --> 0:22:25.236 at me. Whether it's something in my own mind or 0:22:25.316 --> 0:22:27.476 song or something from the audience or whatever. It's it's 0:22:27.876 --> 0:22:29.876 a practice of being very present and kind of awake 0:22:29.956 --> 0:22:32.916 to yourself. We'll be right back with more from Bruce 0:22:33.036 --> 0:22:40.476 Endlum and Jacob Carlier. After a quick break, we're back 0:22:40.516 --> 0:22:45.716 with more from Bruce's conversation with Jacob Carlier. Reharmonization, particularly 0:22:45.916 --> 0:22:50.036 chord substitution, is a big feature of jazz. Yeah, were 0:22:50.116 --> 0:22:54.436 there players you listen to that inspired your interest in 0:22:54.556 --> 0:22:58.396 chord substitution. Was it just something that you always had? Yeah, 0:22:58.436 --> 0:23:00.356 I mean there are so many people. Even if you 0:23:00.356 --> 0:23:02.636 think of someone like Stevie Wonder, you know, Stevie Wonder 0:23:02.756 --> 0:23:06.596 is one of these extraordinary humans who writes these really 0:23:06.676 --> 0:23:09.956 universal songs. But even within his own songs are really dense, 0:23:10.316 --> 0:23:13.676 colorful chords, and he's really kind of being able to 0:23:13.716 --> 0:23:17.396 bridge the gap between this this dense, emotional, harmonic language 0:23:17.436 --> 0:23:19.756 and kind of just this universal songwriting. But when I 0:23:19.796 --> 0:23:21.636 was a teenager, there's a group called Take six that 0:23:21.676 --> 0:23:23.516 I'm sure you're familiar with them. Sure, they're just an 0:23:23.556 --> 0:23:26.556 unbelievably killing a group of it's like a six part 0:23:27.396 --> 0:23:31.276 gospel jazz singing group. And the kinds of chords that 0:23:31.356 --> 0:23:32.916 they would come out with, you know, a chord just 0:23:32.996 --> 0:23:38.756 like you know, the kinds of thirteen chords and stuff 0:23:38.796 --> 0:23:41.796 like that. I hadn't really heard anyone do what they 0:23:41.876 --> 0:23:44.356 did until they did it, you know. And it wasn't 0:23:44.356 --> 0:23:46.116 just their own original music, it was the way that 0:23:46.156 --> 0:23:49.276 they reimagined songs. Like they got a Christmas album called 0:23:49.436 --> 0:23:51.436 We Wish You Americ Christmas. I think it's called It's 0:23:51.436 --> 0:23:53.956 a great title for a Christmas album. And they would 0:23:53.996 --> 0:23:56.436 take songs that I knew as a kid, but they 0:23:56.436 --> 0:23:59.236 would put a spin on the songs harmonically just completely 0:23:59.236 --> 0:24:01.236 blew my mind. And so I think that gave me 0:24:01.276 --> 0:24:03.116 permission as a child to think, oh, so it's cool 0:24:03.156 --> 0:24:05.116 to do that. Then I can I can take a 0:24:05.156 --> 0:24:08.916 song like you know, Twink Twinkle, Little Star or Isn't 0:24:08.956 --> 0:24:11.756 She Lovely? Or whatever happened to be and work out 0:24:11.796 --> 0:24:14.036 a way to do this in my own harmonic way. 0:24:14.276 --> 0:24:16.636 So when I was a teenager, I got so deeply 0:24:16.756 --> 0:24:19.636 kind of really really into and obsessed with the idea 0:24:19.636 --> 0:24:23.036 of taking a melody and harmonizing and crazy ways. And 0:24:23.276 --> 0:24:25.476 there's one arrangement I did of a Stevie tune called 0:24:25.516 --> 0:24:27.756 Don't You Worry About a Thing? You know? That's ad 0:24:33.076 --> 0:24:34.436 And there's a bit in the middle where it goes 0:24:39.996 --> 0:24:44.876 right and I remember thinking, oh, man, that would be 0:24:44.876 --> 0:24:48.356 fun to rehrmonize because it's just a chromatic scale, you know, 0:24:48.836 --> 0:24:57.956 how does he harmonize it? He sort of goes right right, 0:24:58.316 --> 0:25:06.476 And then I so something like that. The fun of 0:25:06.516 --> 0:25:10.516 that was thinking, if you remove any idea, any concept 0:25:10.516 --> 0:25:13.036 of functional harmony, like you remove the idea that we're 0:25:13.036 --> 0:25:16.476 in any key, or that any chords need to belong 0:25:16.716 --> 0:25:32.076 within each other's families. You just take every note on 0:25:32.076 --> 0:25:35.476 a journey that's very dense harmonically. But for me, especially 0:25:35.476 --> 0:25:38.276 at that age seventeen eighteen, when I was really getting 0:25:38.316 --> 0:25:40.316 into this, this was so important for me to do 0:25:40.356 --> 0:25:43.276 this kind of experiments because I was discovering cause I 0:25:43.276 --> 0:25:45.516 didn't understand my ear would find a chord like even 0:25:45.556 --> 0:25:48.996 this chord. It's not really a name for that chord. 0:25:49.116 --> 0:25:50.996 I mean, you could say it's a cartal voicing that's 0:25:50.996 --> 0:25:52.396 made of fourth, or you could say it's like a 0:25:52.516 --> 0:25:55.316 C major seven over the made I mean, it's a 0:25:55.356 --> 0:25:58.476 strange chord basically doesn't really have a name. But I 0:25:58.556 --> 0:26:00.716 has a feeling and I love that feeling. And so 0:26:01.996 --> 0:26:04.396 if every one of these notes moves to a satisfying place, 0:26:04.636 --> 0:26:10.876