1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:23,396 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Today's the first of two episodes featuring a musical 2 00:00:23,476 --> 00:00:29,196 Speaker 1: genius multi instrumentalist, Jacob Collier. In twenty eleven, when Jacob 3 00:00:29,236 --> 00:00:32,316 Speaker 1: was only seventeen, he began posting videos to YouTube of 4 00:00:32,396 --> 00:00:35,796 Speaker 1: himself singing and playing music. They were a massive hit. 5 00:00:36,676 --> 00:00:39,636 Speaker 1: His breakout video, a rendition of Stevie Wonders Don't You 6 00:00:39,636 --> 00:00:43,036 Speaker 1: Worry About a Thing, received millions of views and praise 7 00:00:43,116 --> 00:00:47,716 Speaker 1: from musical legends like Herbie Hancock, David Crosby and even 8 00:00:47,796 --> 00:00:51,916 Speaker 1: Quincy Jones. Since then, he's gone on to release five albums, 9 00:00:52,036 --> 00:00:55,356 Speaker 1: including his twenty sixteen debut In My Room, and in 10 00:00:55,396 --> 00:00:58,996 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two's Piano Ballads, an eleven track album of 11 00:00:59,076 --> 00:01:02,636 Speaker 1: improvised piano pieces he played at various shows during a 12 00:01:02,756 --> 00:01:08,756 Speaker 1: recent tour. Throughout his career, Jacob's collaborated with artists like Sissa, Coldplay, 13 00:01:09,196 --> 00:01:13,996 Speaker 1: Hi Dollar Sign, Tory Kelly, Daniel Caesar and her He's 14 00:01:13,996 --> 00:01:17,036 Speaker 1: also won five Grammy Awards and is the first UK 15 00:01:17,156 --> 00:01:19,516 Speaker 1: artist to win a Grammy for each of his first 16 00:01:19,636 --> 00:01:23,676 Speaker 1: four albums. On today's episode, Bruce Hellam speaks with Jacob 17 00:01:23,716 --> 00:01:27,076 Speaker 1: Collier about the making of his latest live album, his 18 00:01:27,236 --> 00:01:32,636 Speaker 1: creative process, and his musical admiration for Stevie Wonder. Jacob 19 00:01:32,676 --> 00:01:37,756 Speaker 1: also plays piano throughout the two episodes, illustrating advanced musical concepts. 20 00:01:38,596 --> 00:01:41,636 Speaker 1: These conversations with Jacob are the world's most interesting music 21 00:01:41,676 --> 00:01:49,716 Speaker 1: theory class ever, a masterclass. This is broken record liner 22 00:01:49,796 --> 00:01:53,316 Speaker 1: notes for the digital age. I'm justin Mitchell. Before we 23 00:01:53,316 --> 00:01:56,716 Speaker 1: get into the conversation, here's Jacob Collier's live rendition of 24 00:01:56,836 --> 00:03:05,396 Speaker 1: Can't Help Falling in Love? Wis males only fools rushing? 25 00:03:12,196 --> 00:03:39,316 Speaker 1: But I can hell falling in love? Over shoot? I stay? 26 00:03:41,356 --> 00:03:58,076 Speaker 1: Would it be onon VI? Con hell falling in Love? 27 00:04:02,116 --> 00:04:19,476 Speaker 1: Year like the river flows surely to the sea Doe 28 00:04:19,716 --> 00:04:44,756 Speaker 1: and so he goes somethings are my take, my take, 29 00:04:44,876 --> 00:05:04,276 Speaker 1: my horse life to because I can falling in love? 30 00:05:49,676 --> 00:05:53,116 Speaker 1: Jacob Collier, thank you so much having me. It's great 31 00:05:53,116 --> 00:05:55,516 Speaker 1: to have you here, you know, as part of your 32 00:05:55,956 --> 00:05:59,836 Speaker 1: quest to remake all of Western music. Oh gosh, is 33 00:05:59,836 --> 00:06:02,156 Speaker 1: that my quest? It seems to be your quest. You're 34 00:06:02,236 --> 00:06:05,836 Speaker 1: very busy. That was the old Elvis tune. Yes, indeed, 35 00:06:05,996 --> 00:06:08,996 Speaker 1: and that's from your new album Piano Ballads, Sure which 36 00:06:09,116 --> 00:06:10,996 Speaker 1: first tell me just a little bit about the album, 37 00:06:11,076 --> 00:06:12,876 Speaker 1: and then I have many, many questions about what you 38 00:06:12,956 --> 00:06:14,956 Speaker 1: just played, but first tell me just the idea behind 39 00:06:14,996 --> 00:06:17,436 Speaker 1: the album. Sure thing, Okay. So I've just been on 40 00:06:17,476 --> 00:06:20,396 Speaker 1: tour this year, which has been very cathartic, especially after COVID, 41 00:06:21,036 --> 00:06:23,516 Speaker 1: and I've done seventy shows so far. One of the 42 00:06:23,596 --> 00:06:26,396 Speaker 1: challenges that I set myself in order to kind of 43 00:06:26,436 --> 00:06:29,516 Speaker 1: keep myself on my toes was in every show I 44 00:06:29,636 --> 00:06:32,556 Speaker 1: was to play a different piano ballad, and that the 45 00:06:32,676 --> 00:06:36,596 Speaker 1: rule was this piano ballad was totally improvised. As long 46 00:06:36,636 --> 00:06:38,876 Speaker 1: as I know the song, I let whatever comes out 47 00:06:38,956 --> 00:06:41,556 Speaker 1: come out, and that is what it is. And so 48 00:06:41,836 --> 00:06:44,156 Speaker 1: many of the ballots on tour i'd actually never rehearsed 49 00:06:44,196 --> 00:06:47,116 Speaker 1: or played ever before. And I sat on stage in 50 00:06:47,156 --> 00:06:48,956 Speaker 1: the show and I thought, right, I'm going to do 51 00:06:48,956 --> 00:06:52,636 Speaker 1: a rendition of X or y or Z and just 52 00:06:52,716 --> 00:06:54,876 Speaker 1: kind of see what happens. And it was very interesting 53 00:06:55,036 --> 00:06:57,796 Speaker 1: to follow my energy throughout the tour and see which 54 00:06:57,876 --> 00:07:01,596 Speaker 1: ballads kind of ended up connecting with me and connecting 55 00:07:01,596 --> 00:07:04,276 Speaker 1: with the crowd. And I really loved the experience so 56 00:07:04,356 --> 00:07:06,196 Speaker 1: much that I thought it would be nice to share 57 00:07:06,436 --> 00:07:09,316 Speaker 1: a kind of vignette of my most favorite ballot. So 58 00:07:09,396 --> 00:07:11,636 Speaker 1: I released this album about a month ago now, and 59 00:07:11,756 --> 00:07:15,196 Speaker 1: it's eleven of the seventy and it's my absolute favorite 60 00:07:15,476 --> 00:07:17,516 Speaker 1: ballads thus far. I'm going to keep on doing this 61 00:07:17,556 --> 00:07:20,276 Speaker 1: throughout the rest of the year of touring. But that song, 62 00:07:20,476 --> 00:07:22,516 Speaker 1: which I always think of, it's been called wise men 63 00:07:22,556 --> 00:07:24,436 Speaker 1: say it. Actually it's called Can't Help Falling in Love. 64 00:07:25,236 --> 00:07:28,716 Speaker 1: It's a yeah, one of the greatest songs that I've 65 00:07:28,716 --> 00:07:32,396 Speaker 1: ever encountered. I performed that on tour actually using my 66 00:07:32,476 --> 00:07:35,236 Speaker 1: vocal harmonizer, which is an instrument that I had custom built. 67 00:07:35,956 --> 00:07:38,196 Speaker 1: I collaborated with my very different Ben Bloomberg, and we 68 00:07:38,196 --> 00:07:40,316 Speaker 1: built this instrument together, and there's a performance of the 69 00:07:40,356 --> 00:07:43,116 Speaker 1: song through that instrument. It's like almost like a vocoda. 70 00:07:43,396 --> 00:07:44,596 Speaker 1: But I thought today I would play it on the 71 00:07:44,596 --> 00:07:46,516 Speaker 1: piano because I've never done that before. So that was 72 00:07:46,876 --> 00:07:49,676 Speaker 1: a spontaneous rendition. Do you remember the first time you 73 00:07:49,756 --> 00:07:51,956 Speaker 1: heard that song. I can't remember the first time I 74 00:07:51,996 --> 00:07:53,556 Speaker 1: heard that song. It was probably a few years ago. 75 00:07:53,596 --> 00:07:55,996 Speaker 1: It's such a classic tune and so many people have 76 00:07:56,516 --> 00:07:59,956 Speaker 1: reinvented it with such vigor and personality. So I've always 77 00:07:59,996 --> 00:08:02,156 Speaker 1: been drawn to the song, but I've never really thought 78 00:08:02,156 --> 00:08:04,596 Speaker 1: to do it until now, but that song was special 79 00:08:04,596 --> 00:08:07,036 Speaker 1: on tour for another reason, which is that across the 80 00:08:07,396 --> 00:08:10,676 Speaker 1: US portion of the tour, in every show of the tour, 81 00:08:11,076 --> 00:08:13,356 Speaker 1: I had the audience sing one word from that song, 82 00:08:13,956 --> 00:08:17,836 Speaker 1: and so in Portland they sang wise, and then in 83 00:08:17,956 --> 00:08:20,436 Speaker 1: Vancouver they saying man, and then in Seattle they sang 84 00:08:20,476 --> 00:08:22,556 Speaker 1: say like this, and it went on like this, and 85 00:08:22,636 --> 00:08:25,316 Speaker 1: it just so happened, by complete coincidence that by the 86 00:08:25,356 --> 00:08:27,596 Speaker 1: final show of the tour, which was in Columbus, we've 87 00:08:27,636 --> 00:08:29,676 Speaker 1: done every word of the song exactly to the number, 88 00:08:29,716 --> 00:08:33,076 Speaker 1: which is completely unplanned. But what I then did when 89 00:08:33,076 --> 00:08:34,916 Speaker 1: I got home was string all the cities together and 90 00:08:34,956 --> 00:08:37,076 Speaker 1: you have this great, big, long rendition of the song 91 00:08:37,556 --> 00:08:40,196 Speaker 1: which is about one hundred thousand people singing together, which 92 00:08:40,236 --> 00:08:45,396 Speaker 1: is such a philosophically dreamy and sound idea in my mind. 93 00:08:45,796 --> 00:08:48,036 Speaker 1: And so I actually just I released the video of 94 00:08:48,076 --> 00:08:50,636 Speaker 1: that about a week ago now, because I actually had 95 00:08:50,676 --> 00:08:53,516 Speaker 1: every member of the audience record themselves singing the word 96 00:08:53,516 --> 00:08:55,796 Speaker 1: with their phone, and there was a QR code hanging 97 00:08:55,836 --> 00:08:58,196 Speaker 1: above the merch table at every show, and so at 98 00:08:58,236 --> 00:08:59,876 Speaker 1: the end of the show, the audience members would scan 99 00:08:59,956 --> 00:09:02,436 Speaker 1: the videos into the QR code and send them to 100 00:09:02,476 --> 00:09:04,996 Speaker 1: me at home, and when I got home I compiled 101 00:09:05,076 --> 00:09:08,236 Speaker 1: it was over ten thousand submissions of different videos, and 102 00:09:08,276 --> 00:09:10,036 Speaker 1: in total the number of things, as I say, about 103 00:09:09,996 --> 00:09:12,116 Speaker 1: one hundred thousand. And I spent a lot of time 104 00:09:12,196 --> 00:09:14,076 Speaker 1: editing all of that audio together and worked with an 105 00:09:14,116 --> 00:09:17,676 Speaker 1: incredible video team whose name is Light Sale, and they 106 00:09:17,716 --> 00:09:20,276 Speaker 1: and I edited all these little faces. So if you 107 00:09:20,316 --> 00:09:23,196 Speaker 1: if you watched the video, there's all these little mosaic 108 00:09:23,276 --> 00:09:25,636 Speaker 1: tiles of these audience members, each from each city, singing 109 00:09:25,636 --> 00:09:27,796 Speaker 1: each word of the song. There's something, I think in 110 00:09:27,836 --> 00:09:30,356 Speaker 1: that song that everyone can connect to. You know, there 111 00:09:30,436 --> 00:09:32,436 Speaker 1: is something listening to this album and really listening to 112 00:09:32,516 --> 00:09:36,156 Speaker 1: it despite your technical skill, which we're going to get 113 00:09:36,156 --> 00:09:38,956 Speaker 1: to in a minute. There's something very old fashioned about 114 00:09:39,156 --> 00:09:42,156 Speaker 1: people singing sitting around at piano. What happens to be 115 00:09:42,156 --> 00:09:44,476 Speaker 1: you at the piano. But there's something very and maybe 116 00:09:44,516 --> 00:09:47,116 Speaker 1: there's a post pandemic feeling, something very comforting about it. 117 00:09:48,236 --> 00:09:51,156 Speaker 1: Well for me, I definitely feel comforted. I think to me, 118 00:09:51,196 --> 00:09:53,796 Speaker 1: I've spent much of my life and career making these 119 00:09:53,876 --> 00:09:57,436 Speaker 1: kind of multilayered tapestries of sound, and for me, it's 120 00:09:57,436 --> 00:09:59,476 Speaker 1: always been such an important place to kind of learn, 121 00:09:59,596 --> 00:10:01,716 Speaker 1: but also to share just by sitting at the piano 122 00:10:01,716 --> 00:10:05,836 Speaker 1: and playing. And so yeah, it felt like an important 123 00:10:05,956 --> 00:10:07,596 Speaker 1: thing on the tour, just to have a moment in 124 00:10:07,676 --> 00:10:10,636 Speaker 1: amongst the chaos of the full production, because tours it 125 00:10:10,716 --> 00:10:12,956 Speaker 1: is a vast thing. You know, there's six of us 126 00:10:12,956 --> 00:10:16,036 Speaker 1: in the band, there's lights, there's staging, there's about one 127 00:10:16,116 --> 00:10:17,956 Speaker 1: hundred musical instruments on the stage and we're all hopping 128 00:10:17,956 --> 00:10:19,556 Speaker 1: around between all of them. It's it's a lot of fun. 129 00:10:19,836 --> 00:10:21,236 Speaker 1: But this moment in the show where I just sit 130 00:10:21,276 --> 00:10:23,356 Speaker 1: and play a song on the piano feels, as you say, 131 00:10:23,436 --> 00:10:27,676 Speaker 1: an intimate, comforting and rather old fashioned. The anticipation of 132 00:10:27,676 --> 00:10:29,676 Speaker 1: the crowd you can feel when they recognize the song 133 00:10:30,276 --> 00:10:35,716 Speaker 1: firstly and then they're invited to sing tremendous release for them. Yeah, yes, 134 00:10:35,796 --> 00:10:38,876 Speaker 1: I think so. I love it when everyone sings together. Now, 135 00:10:39,196 --> 00:10:41,276 Speaker 1: I want to ask a little bit about when you 136 00:10:41,276 --> 00:10:43,756 Speaker 1: sit down at the piano in one of these concerts 137 00:10:43,996 --> 00:10:46,036 Speaker 1: and you think I'm going to play this song, do 138 00:10:46,076 --> 00:10:47,396 Speaker 1: you know the key you're going to sing it in 139 00:10:47,556 --> 00:10:49,596 Speaker 1: when you sit down. No, I normally decide at the 140 00:10:49,676 --> 00:10:51,996 Speaker 1: end of the introduction, So I'll sit and play a 141 00:10:51,996 --> 00:10:53,756 Speaker 1: few notes, and it's like following your nose, you know. 142 00:10:53,796 --> 00:10:56,956 Speaker 1: You think, oh, I'll play, you know, oh, and then 143 00:11:01,116 --> 00:11:03,236 Speaker 1: and then suddenly I'm in F sharp. I don't know why, 144 00:11:03,356 --> 00:11:05,956 Speaker 1: but that just fell out, you know. So so oftentimes 145 00:11:05,956 --> 00:11:08,516 Speaker 1: I'll start playing, and I'll play for a couple of minutes, 146 00:11:08,516 --> 00:11:10,636 Speaker 1: and sometimes I haven't even decided what song I'm going 147 00:11:10,676 --> 00:11:12,396 Speaker 1: to play, you know, until the end of that introduction, 148 00:11:12,476 --> 00:11:13,636 Speaker 1: I think, do you know, I think I'm going to 149 00:11:13,716 --> 00:11:15,396 Speaker 1: do How Deep is Your Love? Or I think I'm 150 00:11:15,436 --> 00:11:18,796 Speaker 1: going to do Caledonia or whatever. Yeah, and the other 151 00:11:18,836 --> 00:11:20,796 Speaker 1: thing I'd like to do it just because it's fun, 152 00:11:20,836 --> 00:11:23,076 Speaker 1: and sometimes it really helps tell the story of the song. 153 00:11:23,196 --> 00:11:25,276 Speaker 1: Is is change key throughout? So you may start in 154 00:11:25,356 --> 00:11:27,556 Speaker 1: one key and then move to a different keys as 155 00:11:27,556 --> 00:11:31,116 Speaker 1: the song continues. If I'm taken there, so one thing 156 00:11:31,516 --> 00:11:32,996 Speaker 1: you were doing, and I'm not sure if you did 157 00:11:32,996 --> 00:11:35,996 Speaker 1: it this time, you're modulating, Yeah, from key to key. Yes, 158 00:11:36,756 --> 00:11:41,356 Speaker 1: and you're also reharmonizing. That's true. Can you just briefly 159 00:11:41,356 --> 00:11:45,076 Speaker 1: explain what that means? Yeah, sure, I'll hop to the piano. 160 00:11:44,756 --> 00:11:51,316 Speaker 1: So modulating is the idea of moving the gravity of home, right, 161 00:11:51,396 --> 00:11:54,316 Speaker 1: like musical home. So with this song. If I do 162 00:11:54,716 --> 00:12:02,276 Speaker 1: wise men say this is my home, I'm a F 163 00:12:02,436 --> 00:12:09,356 Speaker 1: major today, if I went that's a different key that's 164 00:12:09,396 --> 00:12:14,356 Speaker 1: in D flat or I mean a right. So on 165 00:12:14,436 --> 00:12:16,876 Speaker 1: the piano, we have twelve keys, and there's all sorts 166 00:12:16,916 --> 00:12:18,996 Speaker 1: of ways to move between them. But one of the 167 00:12:19,036 --> 00:12:20,636 Speaker 1: things I'd really like to do most is, yeah, as 168 00:12:20,636 --> 00:12:22,556 Speaker 1: I said, to find a way from one key to another. 169 00:12:23,076 --> 00:12:25,676 Speaker 1: And it can feel really like a bigger lift when 170 00:12:25,676 --> 00:12:28,476 Speaker 1: you change key. What's the hinge you use to move 171 00:12:28,516 --> 00:12:31,116 Speaker 1: from one key to another? You know, in modulation they 172 00:12:31,156 --> 00:12:33,276 Speaker 1: heard at the end of songs, you know Willie Nelson 173 00:12:33,316 --> 00:12:36,276 Speaker 1: goes up a tone, right, Yeah, are you just looking 174 00:12:36,276 --> 00:12:39,476 Speaker 1: for common tones between the notes, because you don't, you 175 00:12:39,516 --> 00:12:42,356 Speaker 1: don't just modulate up a tone like you're just not 176 00:12:42,476 --> 00:12:46,276 Speaker 1: there for like slightly higher. Yeah, you're You're like, there's 177 00:12:46,316 --> 00:12:48,796 Speaker 1: a different degree of difficulty. So when you're when you're 178 00:12:48,796 --> 00:12:51,076 Speaker 1: moving from one key to another, what's the signal that 179 00:12:51,156 --> 00:12:52,996 Speaker 1: you can do it? What I found myself doing is 180 00:12:53,036 --> 00:12:56,076 Speaker 1: building bridges from one key to another. So say, for example, 181 00:12:56,316 --> 00:12:59,716 Speaker 1: if I'm an F, which i am this note, a 182 00:13:02,156 --> 00:13:05,756 Speaker 1: right A exists in other keys besides, so for example, 183 00:13:05,876 --> 00:13:11,916 Speaker 1: D R a ism in D major and in F major. 184 00:13:12,116 --> 00:13:19,836 Speaker 1: It lives in both both worlds, right, So there are 185 00:13:19,836 --> 00:13:22,956 Speaker 1: all sorts of ways you can move between keys. But 186 00:13:22,996 --> 00:13:24,836 Speaker 1: if I end up singing an A, if I go 187 00:13:25,276 --> 00:13:35,596 Speaker 1: faalling right, then I've moved changed. But the A was 188 00:13:35,596 --> 00:13:38,156 Speaker 1: my bridge from one to the other. You know, It's 189 00:13:38,156 --> 00:13:41,836 Speaker 1: almost like visualizing different different kind of tributaries away from 190 00:13:41,836 --> 00:13:45,156 Speaker 1: the river that you're sailing down and then kind of 191 00:13:45,196 --> 00:13:47,956 Speaker 1: having faith that you'll find a way there, because a 192 00:13:47,996 --> 00:13:50,476 Speaker 1: lot of the things that happen when you imbroise happened 193 00:13:50,676 --> 00:13:53,676 Speaker 1: by chance. And if you're too contrived about it, or 194 00:13:53,716 --> 00:13:55,396 Speaker 1: even too thoughtful about it, then it can it can 195 00:13:55,396 --> 00:13:58,436 Speaker 1: remove the natural storytelling of the thing. When I spent 196 00:13:58,516 --> 00:14:00,756 Speaker 1: many hours of my life sitting at the piano and 197 00:14:01,036 --> 00:14:04,996 Speaker 1: thinking about these different sounds and how they connect to 198 00:14:05,036 --> 00:14:06,636 Speaker 1: each other. But when I sit on stage and sing 199 00:14:06,636 --> 00:14:07,996 Speaker 1: a song, I'm not thinking about any of that stuff. 200 00:14:08,036 --> 00:14:10,116 Speaker 1: I'm just singing the song. And it may it may 201 00:14:10,236 --> 00:14:12,636 Speaker 1: end up that I find myself starting in F and 202 00:14:12,716 --> 00:14:14,476 Speaker 1: ending in D flat. You know, it might just be 203 00:14:14,516 --> 00:14:17,316 Speaker 1: one of those days, And you can turn off the 204 00:14:18,116 --> 00:14:20,636 Speaker 1: more deliberate part of your brain to do that well, 205 00:14:20,876 --> 00:14:23,236 Speaker 1: to me. It's a bit like talking the English language. 206 00:14:23,276 --> 00:14:25,276 Speaker 1: I'm not consciously thinking as I'm talking to you about 207 00:14:25,316 --> 00:14:28,276 Speaker 1: grammar or spelling, you know, even though those things are 208 00:14:28,276 --> 00:14:30,916 Speaker 1: helpful to think about when I'm learning how to put 209 00:14:30,916 --> 00:14:34,036 Speaker 1: my language together, it helps me contextualize things. But when 210 00:14:34,036 --> 00:14:37,876 Speaker 1: I'm talking to you now, I'm improvising based on my syntax, 211 00:14:37,956 --> 00:14:40,316 Speaker 1: my sort of internalized syntax, which comes from people I've 212 00:14:40,356 --> 00:14:43,476 Speaker 1: listened to talk and time I've spent thinking about words 213 00:14:43,476 --> 00:14:45,756 Speaker 1: and writing words and practicing talking a lot at home 214 00:14:45,756 --> 00:14:47,796 Speaker 1: when I was a kid, you know. So it's a 215 00:14:47,836 --> 00:14:51,716 Speaker 1: similar approach I think to playing. I can tune into 216 00:14:51,996 --> 00:14:54,396 Speaker 1: what the chords are, you know. I know, for example, 217 00:14:54,436 --> 00:14:56,996 Speaker 1: that the A is a third. I could describe it 218 00:14:57,036 --> 00:15:00,516 Speaker 1: as a third, but it's also just the note, you know. 219 00:15:00,516 --> 00:15:01,956 Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be called a third or have 220 00:15:01,956 --> 00:15:04,636 Speaker 1: a name at all. But I understand the kind of 221 00:15:04,636 --> 00:15:10,636 Speaker 1: emotional properties of that note, all the ways it can move, 222 00:15:16,556 --> 00:15:20,276 Speaker 1: and you can follow those things. So it's melodies, harmonies, rhythms, 223 00:15:20,396 --> 00:15:22,596 Speaker 1: all these things kind of connect. But yeah, I don't 224 00:15:22,636 --> 00:15:25,916 Speaker 1: tend to be particularly thoughtful on stage. Sometimes there are 225 00:15:25,996 --> 00:15:27,276 Speaker 1: days where I am, and I think those are the 226 00:15:27,356 --> 00:15:29,956 Speaker 1: days where I'm I'm I'm in myself, you know, I'm 227 00:15:29,996 --> 00:15:32,436 Speaker 1: within my own world, and it's it's sometimes harder in 228 00:15:32,476 --> 00:15:34,756 Speaker 1: that space to really tell a story and connect with 229 00:15:34,756 --> 00:15:36,876 Speaker 1: a room. I think there's an old expression in jazz, 230 00:15:36,916 --> 00:15:38,476 Speaker 1: now it's time to forget all that shit and just 231 00:15:38,516 --> 00:15:41,076 Speaker 1: play exactly. Yeah, I couldn't put it better myself, So 232 00:15:41,156 --> 00:15:46,236 Speaker 1: that's modulating. We didn't talk about reharmonizing, which is something 233 00:15:46,316 --> 00:15:49,196 Speaker 1: you do. When I say you're remaking Western music, you're 234 00:15:49,276 --> 00:15:51,796 Speaker 1: essentially reharmonizing Western music. As far as I can tell, 235 00:15:51,996 --> 00:15:54,076 Speaker 1: it is one of my hobbies. Yeah, show me one 236 00:15:54,076 --> 00:15:56,596 Speaker 1: of two of the things you did to reharmonize that tune. 237 00:15:57,236 --> 00:16:04,916 Speaker 1: So this dude goes right. It's very simple tune, Slae 238 00:16:04,916 --> 00:16:06,956 Speaker 1: because every note I've just realised, every note from that 239 00:16:06,996 --> 00:16:10,036 Speaker 1: song is actually in one scale, the major scale. It's 240 00:16:10,196 --> 00:16:15,836 Speaker 1: very lovely and welcome sound to most ears. So when 241 00:16:15,916 --> 00:16:17,796 Speaker 1: you think about harmonizing and this, I might get a 242 00:16:17,836 --> 00:16:20,236 Speaker 1: bit nerdier, But when you think about harmonizing, you're essentially 243 00:16:20,276 --> 00:16:23,236 Speaker 1: departing home and arriving home. That's like, in a nutshell, 244 00:16:23,276 --> 00:16:25,596 Speaker 1: that's what you're doing with a song like this. So 245 00:16:25,676 --> 00:16:30,996 Speaker 1: basically I'm going that's what I'm that's the journey in 246 00:16:31,516 --> 00:16:33,396 Speaker 1: a very very crude sense. So there are all sorts 247 00:16:33,436 --> 00:16:36,436 Speaker 1: of ways you can depart from home, right, And when 248 00:16:36,436 --> 00:16:40,076 Speaker 1: we think about harmonization, it's easy and pleasurable to think about, 249 00:16:40,436 --> 00:16:44,156 Speaker 1: for example, the idea of localities. You know, keys that 250 00:16:44,196 --> 00:16:47,196 Speaker 1: are neighbors to f and I think that the two 251 00:16:47,276 --> 00:16:51,876 Speaker 1: most kind of most sound neighbors to ff fs are 252 00:16:51,916 --> 00:16:53,956 Speaker 1: called one, you could say, is called four, which is 253 00:16:53,996 --> 00:16:57,916 Speaker 1: B flat just around the corner, and called five, which 254 00:16:57,956 --> 00:17:02,756 Speaker 1: is around the other corner, right. And actually you can 255 00:17:02,796 --> 00:17:05,116 Speaker 1: play chord one, four, and five. You can play almost 256 00:17:05,196 --> 00:17:07,396 Speaker 1: every song that's ever been written, because so many songs 257 00:17:07,436 --> 00:17:10,076 Speaker 1: are made from those chords. And there are all sorts 258 00:17:10,116 --> 00:17:11,876 Speaker 1: of permutations of these chords. So even if you just 259 00:17:11,916 --> 00:17:15,036 Speaker 1: take the chord F major, if you reorganize the notes 260 00:17:15,076 --> 00:17:21,596 Speaker 1: in that chord, then you have what's called inversions of 261 00:17:21,596 --> 00:17:23,836 Speaker 1: the chord, which are like different sensations, different ways in 262 00:17:23,836 --> 00:17:25,476 Speaker 1: which that chord can feel. So we call this one 263 00:17:25,636 --> 00:17:29,996 Speaker 1: root position, like it's most grounded form. This one. It's 264 00:17:30,036 --> 00:17:33,556 Speaker 1: slightly more it's like it's perhaps on its waist somewhere. 265 00:17:33,756 --> 00:17:35,836 Speaker 1: It's still grounded, but it's it's it's it's moving. It's 266 00:17:35,876 --> 00:17:37,876 Speaker 1: it's not stable because the third, the A is in 267 00:17:37,916 --> 00:17:42,036 Speaker 1: the base, right, so maybe it wants to go there, right, 268 00:17:42,636 --> 00:17:45,796 Speaker 1: it wants to move. And then the final one it's 269 00:17:45,836 --> 00:17:48,236 Speaker 1: actually I really this inversion. This is called second inversion, 270 00:17:48,436 --> 00:17:49,916 Speaker 1: and it's when we have the fifth in the base. 271 00:17:50,396 --> 00:17:52,476 Speaker 1: And I really like this in version because it's like you, 272 00:17:52,476 --> 00:17:56,236 Speaker 1: you are arrived, you are here, but you're not really 273 00:17:56,236 --> 00:18:05,476 Speaker 1: you're not here. You're just kind of purging, right, You're 274 00:18:05,516 --> 00:18:07,996 Speaker 1: you're you, you've arrived, but you're you haven't fully arrived. 275 00:18:08,036 --> 00:18:10,836 Speaker 1: And so when I think about these chords and harmonization 276 00:18:10,916 --> 00:18:14,156 Speaker 1: re harmonization, I'm using these chords as kind of emotional 277 00:18:14,196 --> 00:18:16,836 Speaker 1: devices to tell stories. So the idea of how home 278 00:18:16,916 --> 00:18:19,716 Speaker 1: you are, that's a concept that it's not that's not 279 00:18:19,876 --> 00:18:23,836 Speaker 1: musical in nature, that's human. So human concept. I'm this 280 00:18:23,956 --> 00:18:27,756 Speaker 1: amount pulled home, or I am this amount safe or 281 00:18:27,796 --> 00:18:29,676 Speaker 1: this amount stable. You know that these are things that 282 00:18:29,676 --> 00:18:33,396 Speaker 1: we understand as people. And so you as a harmonizer 283 00:18:34,156 --> 00:18:38,196 Speaker 1: have all sorts of devices as to how how you 284 00:18:38,196 --> 00:18:42,716 Speaker 1: want to move people. So stay with these first three notes. Well, 285 00:18:42,876 --> 00:18:47,796 Speaker 1: I could just do and that doesn't go anywhere really, 286 00:18:47,796 --> 00:18:51,316 Speaker 1: but or I could just do, which is a slight, 287 00:18:51,356 --> 00:18:53,716 Speaker 1: sweeter version of again not really going anywhere. But if 288 00:18:53,756 --> 00:19:00,476 Speaker 1: I went, then I've moved somewhere, and that's a bit drastic, 289 00:19:00,716 --> 00:19:03,956 Speaker 1: perhaps the first phrase of the song. But F, which 290 00:19:03,996 --> 00:19:06,316 Speaker 1: exists in F major, also exists in D flat major, 291 00:19:06,436 --> 00:19:08,236 Speaker 1: which is where I just went to. And that's cool 292 00:19:08,276 --> 00:19:10,796 Speaker 1: because flat major is actually it's quite foreign to F. 293 00:19:11,036 --> 00:19:16,836 Speaker 1: It's quite far away key. And so what you can 294 00:19:16,916 --> 00:19:19,676 Speaker 1: do when you harmonize is you can really take people 295 00:19:19,676 --> 00:19:29,396 Speaker 1: by surprise. Right, I mean a chord like that, it's 296 00:19:29,796 --> 00:19:33,436 Speaker 1: very austere. It's a kind of bitter sweet chord because 297 00:19:33,476 --> 00:19:36,676 Speaker 1: these notes are tugging on each other and these notes 298 00:19:36,676 --> 00:19:41,516 Speaker 1: are stable, and that note is sour, you know, compared 299 00:19:41,556 --> 00:19:51,156 Speaker 1: to the sweetness of this, Right you think, oh, and 300 00:19:51,196 --> 00:19:53,836 Speaker 1: I mean again, it's it's just storytelling. Tell me, what's 301 00:19:53,876 --> 00:19:56,436 Speaker 1: the chord you're playing now? This chord, well, it's you 302 00:19:56,476 --> 00:19:59,156 Speaker 1: could call it a B a B major seven sharp five, 303 00:19:59,396 --> 00:20:02,796 Speaker 1: so it's a B major with a seven and a six. 304 00:20:03,236 --> 00:20:05,956 Speaker 1: But the fifth, which is this is actually sharpened, so 305 00:20:06,116 --> 00:20:08,796 Speaker 1: it's it's what we call like an augmented chord. I 306 00:20:08,836 --> 00:20:12,756 Speaker 1: suppose an augmented chords are naturally quite quite stretched and open. 307 00:20:12,796 --> 00:20:16,436 Speaker 1: It's like an unnaturally large open gap. But if I 308 00:20:16,636 --> 00:20:21,556 Speaker 1: were to do that, oh, I've ready made some contrast. 309 00:20:21,596 --> 00:20:28,276 Speaker 1: And now when I go and you start to really 310 00:20:28,276 --> 00:20:31,796 Speaker 1: paint pictures, you create tension and you release tension. And 311 00:20:31,836 --> 00:20:34,356 Speaker 1: so you know this obviously when you're practicing this and 312 00:20:34,556 --> 00:20:37,516 Speaker 1: sitting at the piano, you're thinking, you're, okay, what are 313 00:20:37,556 --> 00:20:39,236 Speaker 1: these core? How do they fit together? What are my 314 00:20:39,316 --> 00:20:41,236 Speaker 1: common tones? But when you sit on stage and improvise, 315 00:20:41,476 --> 00:20:44,276 Speaker 1: you're just painting a picture from from your mind, you know. 316 00:20:44,356 --> 00:20:56,276 Speaker 1: So it's a split second decision. Sweeten, it up lead 317 00:20:56,316 --> 00:21:03,596 Speaker 1: at home, away from home, heading towards home, and I'm 318 00:21:03,596 --> 00:21:17,636 Speaker 1: not going to change key because I feel like it, Sweeten, 319 00:21:18,676 --> 00:21:31,316 Speaker 1: I've changed key. Change key again. So I actually started 320 00:21:31,316 --> 00:21:32,756 Speaker 1: an F and then I went to D flat, and 321 00:21:32,756 --> 00:21:34,996 Speaker 1: then I would end up in E flat, which I 322 00:21:34,996 --> 00:21:37,476 Speaker 1: didn't really plan. But but these these kinds of things 323 00:21:37,516 --> 00:21:40,956 Speaker 1: happen not only when you have you've acquired at a 324 00:21:41,036 --> 00:21:44,556 Speaker 1: language of sorts, but also mainly when you're just fearless 325 00:21:44,636 --> 00:21:46,036 Speaker 1: enough to give stuff a go. You think, oh, what 326 00:21:46,076 --> 00:21:48,556 Speaker 1: would happen if I did this? And then you try 327 00:21:49,276 --> 00:21:52,156 Speaker 1: and sometimes it's great, and sometimes it's it's horrendous, you know, 328 00:21:52,196 --> 00:21:53,876 Speaker 1: But I'm kind of here for all of it. And 329 00:21:53,876 --> 00:21:55,956 Speaker 1: I think that one of the joys of touring in 330 00:21:55,956 --> 00:21:58,916 Speaker 1: this way is that all the imperfections of figuring this 331 00:21:58,916 --> 00:22:01,636 Speaker 1: stuff out in real time, it's all shared as an experience. 332 00:22:01,676 --> 00:22:04,676 Speaker 1: It's I'm not keeping this to myself or it's just 333 00:22:04,716 --> 00:22:07,476 Speaker 1: for me to hear in my practice room or closed environment. 334 00:22:07,476 --> 00:22:09,636 Speaker 1: I think you always learn most when you put yourself 335 00:22:09,636 --> 00:22:11,596 Speaker 1: in the real world and learn a skill, and I 336 00:22:11,636 --> 00:22:14,756 Speaker 1: think that for me, this experience on tour was almost 337 00:22:14,796 --> 00:22:19,036 Speaker 1: like a determination to learn how to do this freely 338 00:22:19,196 --> 00:22:23,556 Speaker 1: and truly be comfortable with whatever kind of gets thrown 339 00:22:23,596 --> 00:22:25,236 Speaker 1: at me. Whether it's something in my own mind or 340 00:22:25,316 --> 00:22:27,476 Speaker 1: song or something from the audience or whatever. It's it's 341 00:22:27,876 --> 00:22:29,876 Speaker 1: a practice of being very present and kind of awake 342 00:22:29,956 --> 00:22:32,916 Speaker 1: to yourself. We'll be right back with more from Bruce 343 00:22:33,036 --> 00:22:40,476 Speaker 1: Endlum and Jacob Carlier. After a quick break, we're back 344 00:22:40,516 --> 00:22:45,716 Speaker 1: with more from Bruce's conversation with Jacob Carlier. Reharmonization, particularly 345 00:22:45,916 --> 00:22:50,036 Speaker 1: chord substitution, is a big feature of jazz. Yeah, were 346 00:22:50,116 --> 00:22:54,436 Speaker 1: there players you listen to that inspired your interest in 347 00:22:54,556 --> 00:22:58,396 Speaker 1: chord substitution. Was it just something that you always had? Yeah, 348 00:22:58,436 --> 00:23:00,356 Speaker 1: I mean there are so many people. Even if you 349 00:23:00,356 --> 00:23:02,636 Speaker 1: think of someone like Stevie Wonder, you know, Stevie Wonder 350 00:23:02,756 --> 00:23:06,596 Speaker 1: is one of these extraordinary humans who writes these really 351 00:23:06,676 --> 00:23:09,956 Speaker 1: universal songs. But even within his own songs are really dense, 352 00:23:10,316 --> 00:23:13,676 Speaker 1: colorful chords, and he's really kind of being able to 353 00:23:13,716 --> 00:23:17,396 Speaker 1: bridge the gap between this this dense, emotional, harmonic language 354 00:23:17,436 --> 00:23:19,756 Speaker 1: and kind of just this universal songwriting. But when I 355 00:23:19,796 --> 00:23:21,636 Speaker 1: was a teenager, there's a group called Take six that 356 00:23:21,676 --> 00:23:23,516 Speaker 1: I'm sure you're familiar with them. Sure, they're just an 357 00:23:23,556 --> 00:23:26,556 Speaker 1: unbelievably killing a group of it's like a six part 358 00:23:27,396 --> 00:23:31,276 Speaker 1: gospel jazz singing group. And the kinds of chords that 359 00:23:31,356 --> 00:23:32,916 Speaker 1: they would come out with, you know, a chord just 360 00:23:32,996 --> 00:23:38,756 Speaker 1: like you know, the kinds of thirteen chords and stuff 361 00:23:38,796 --> 00:23:41,796 Speaker 1: like that. I hadn't really heard anyone do what they 362 00:23:41,876 --> 00:23:44,356 Speaker 1: did until they did it, you know. And it wasn't 363 00:23:44,356 --> 00:23:46,116 Speaker 1: just their own original music, it was the way that 364 00:23:46,156 --> 00:23:49,276 Speaker 1: they reimagined songs. Like they got a Christmas album called 365 00:23:49,436 --> 00:23:51,436 Speaker 1: We Wish You Americ Christmas. I think it's called It's 366 00:23:51,436 --> 00:23:53,956 Speaker 1: a great title for a Christmas album. And they would 367 00:23:53,996 --> 00:23:56,436 Speaker 1: take songs that I knew as a kid, but they 368 00:23:56,436 --> 00:23:59,236 Speaker 1: would put a spin on the songs harmonically just completely 369 00:23:59,236 --> 00:24:01,236 Speaker 1: blew my mind. And so I think that gave me 370 00:24:01,276 --> 00:24:03,116 Speaker 1: permission as a child to think, oh, so it's cool 371 00:24:03,156 --> 00:24:05,116 Speaker 1: to do that. Then I can I can take a 372 00:24:05,156 --> 00:24:08,916 Speaker 1: song like you know, Twink Twinkle, Little Star or Isn't 373 00:24:08,956 --> 00:24:11,756 Speaker 1: She Lovely? Or whatever happened to be and work out 374 00:24:11,796 --> 00:24:14,036 Speaker 1: a way to do this in my own harmonic way. 375 00:24:14,276 --> 00:24:16,636 Speaker 1: So when I was a teenager, I got so deeply 376 00:24:16,756 --> 00:24:19,636 Speaker 1: kind of really really into and obsessed with the idea 377 00:24:19,636 --> 00:24:23,036 Speaker 1: of taking a melody and harmonizing and crazy ways. And 378 00:24:23,276 --> 00:24:25,476 Speaker 1: there's one arrangement I did of a Stevie tune called 379 00:24:25,516 --> 00:24:27,756 Speaker 1: Don't You Worry About a Thing? You know? That's ad 380 00:24:33,076 --> 00:24:34,436 Speaker 1: And there's a bit in the middle where it goes 381 00:24:39,996 --> 00:24:44,876 Speaker 1: right and I remember thinking, oh, man, that would be 382 00:24:44,876 --> 00:24:48,356 Speaker 1: fun to rehrmonize because it's just a chromatic scale, you know, 383 00:24:48,836 --> 00:24:57,956 Speaker 1: how does he harmonize it? He sort of goes right right, 384 00:24:58,316 --> 00:25:06,476 Speaker 1: And then I so something like that. The fun of 385 00:25:06,516 --> 00:25:10,516 Speaker 1: that was thinking, if you remove any idea, any concept 386 00:25:10,516 --> 00:25:13,036 Speaker 1: of functional harmony, like you remove the idea that we're 387 00:25:13,036 --> 00:25:16,476 Speaker 1: in any key, or that any chords need to belong 388 00:25:16,716 --> 00:25:32,076 Speaker 1: within each other's families. You just take every note on 389 00:25:32,076 --> 00:25:35,476 Speaker 1: a journey that's very dense harmonically. But for me, especially 390 00:25:35,476 --> 00:25:38,276 Speaker 1: at that age seventeen eighteen, when I was really getting 391 00:25:38,316 --> 00:25:40,316 Speaker 1: into this, this was so important for me to do 392 00:25:40,356 --> 00:25:43,276 Speaker 1: this kind of experiments because I was discovering cause I 393 00:25:43,276 --> 00:25:45,516 Speaker 1: didn't understand my ear would find a chord like even 394 00:25:45,556 --> 00:25:48,996 Speaker 1: this chord. It's not really a name for that chord. 395 00:25:49,116 --> 00:25:50,996 Speaker 1: I mean, you could say it's a cartal voicing that's 396 00:25:50,996 --> 00:25:52,396 Speaker 1: made of fourth, or you could say it's like a 397 00:25:52,516 --> 00:25:55,316 Speaker 1: C major seven over the made I mean, it's a 398 00:25:55,356 --> 00:25:58,476 Speaker 1: strange chord basically doesn't really have a name. But I 399 00:25:58,556 --> 00:26:00,716 Speaker 1: has a feeling and I love that feeling. And so 400 00:26:01,996 --> 00:26:04,396 Speaker 1: if every one of these notes moves to a satisfying place, 401 00:26:04,636 --> 00:26:10,876 Speaker 1: regardless of your key center, I mean that again, it's 402 00:26:11,156 --> 00:26:13,316 Speaker 1: quite a foreign cause it's a flat minor over f. 403 00:26:17,716 --> 00:26:22,956 Speaker 1: You know, every note has a pathway like a journey. 404 00:26:23,356 --> 00:26:25,756 Speaker 1: So when you re harmonize that part of that song, 405 00:26:25,996 --> 00:26:28,076 Speaker 1: you weren't actually thinking in terms of chords. You were 406 00:26:28,116 --> 00:26:31,596 Speaker 1: just moving your fingers so you had the sound you wanted. 407 00:26:31,796 --> 00:26:33,676 Speaker 1: I would say I was thinking in terms of cause, 408 00:26:33,716 --> 00:26:36,276 Speaker 1: but I wasn't thinking in terms of tonality. I was 409 00:26:36,276 --> 00:26:38,356 Speaker 1: thinking more in terms of voice leading, which is like 410 00:26:38,436 --> 00:26:40,676 Speaker 1: a name that we give to the idea that every voice, 411 00:26:40,756 --> 00:26:44,996 Speaker 1: if this chord is a five voice chord, and every 412 00:26:45,036 --> 00:26:48,516 Speaker 1: note within that chord has it has its own pathway, 413 00:26:48,716 --> 00:26:51,316 Speaker 1: you know. So it going back to wise men say, 414 00:26:51,516 --> 00:26:54,436 Speaker 1: if you think about it being soprano, alto tenor ound 415 00:26:54,476 --> 00:27:00,316 Speaker 1: base right as Bark would think about it, why right, 416 00:27:00,836 --> 00:27:02,636 Speaker 1: then every one of those those paths needs to have 417 00:27:02,636 --> 00:27:05,716 Speaker 1: its own melody. So for example, the alter part goes 418 00:27:06,156 --> 00:27:16,236 Speaker 1: why dude, I can sing that, the tene goes Whisey, right, 419 00:27:16,356 --> 00:27:20,556 Speaker 1: base goes Wis and the baseline is always the most 420 00:27:20,556 --> 00:27:23,036 Speaker 1: important if you've got these two things going in motion, 421 00:27:25,596 --> 00:27:28,476 Speaker 1: and that's always very sound. And so yeah, each of 422 00:27:28,476 --> 00:27:30,676 Speaker 1: these voices has its own pathway. So so if I 423 00:27:30,716 --> 00:27:34,116 Speaker 1: do this crazy complex kind of course, it's the same principle. 424 00:27:34,156 --> 00:27:37,476 Speaker 1: Every every note within the chords kind of needs it 425 00:27:37,676 --> 00:27:41,836 Speaker 1: a satisfying destination. If one part is going, then it's 426 00:27:41,876 --> 00:27:43,676 Speaker 1: not fun to sing and you don't emote with it. 427 00:27:43,756 --> 00:27:46,556 Speaker 1: If every path has a journey and a destination, then 428 00:27:46,556 --> 00:27:48,316 Speaker 1: you can you can emote with it. And I don't 429 00:27:48,356 --> 00:27:51,396 Speaker 1: think you need to understand all these notes and their 430 00:27:51,836 --> 00:27:54,356 Speaker 1: momentum to feel it, you know, because when I know, 431 00:27:54,396 --> 00:27:57,156 Speaker 1: when I was a kid, I would hear these chords 432 00:27:57,156 --> 00:27:58,756 Speaker 1: go past in you know Stevie Wonder songs, and I 433 00:27:58,796 --> 00:28:00,556 Speaker 1: wouldn't know what. I don't know what the chords were, 434 00:28:00,556 --> 00:28:02,516 Speaker 1: but I felt I felt them. I felt what the 435 00:28:02,596 --> 00:28:05,996 Speaker 1: chords did. And I think my passion and fascination to 436 00:28:06,076 --> 00:28:08,956 Speaker 1: this day is how how do I reverse engineer that 437 00:28:09,116 --> 00:28:13,156 Speaker 1: those kinds of emotional reactions to music that I experienced 438 00:28:13,156 --> 00:28:15,476 Speaker 1: as a listener, How do I reverse engineer that as 439 00:28:15,516 --> 00:28:18,476 Speaker 1: a creator of music? And it basically just starts with 440 00:28:18,556 --> 00:28:20,716 Speaker 1: being curious, you know, it doesn't start with knowing everything 441 00:28:20,756 --> 00:28:23,236 Speaker 1: on being aware. It just starts with being open to 442 00:28:23,356 --> 00:28:26,556 Speaker 1: figuring stuff out. Tell me about growing up. Your mother's 443 00:28:26,596 --> 00:28:29,556 Speaker 1: a musician, she's a violent er. Your grandfather is a musician. Yes, 444 00:28:29,636 --> 00:28:32,436 Speaker 1: also a violin player. Yes for sure. Okay, it seems 445 00:28:32,436 --> 00:28:34,876 Speaker 1: you broke the family curse. You don't play violin. Yeah. 446 00:28:34,916 --> 00:28:37,356 Speaker 1: I started playing violin when I was two, and I 447 00:28:37,436 --> 00:28:39,836 Speaker 1: gave up by the age of four. No, I thought 448 00:28:39,876 --> 00:28:43,076 Speaker 1: that's wonderful, too impatient. I wanted to go and have 449 00:28:43,116 --> 00:28:45,196 Speaker 1: a result, you know. But the thing about the violin, 450 00:28:45,596 --> 00:28:47,356 Speaker 1: I mean, it's the most beautiful instrument in the whole 451 00:28:47,356 --> 00:28:49,116 Speaker 1: wide world, but if you pick it up a go, 452 00:28:49,916 --> 00:28:52,516 Speaker 1: it doesn't sound good for about a year. You have 453 00:28:52,556 --> 00:28:54,676 Speaker 1: to just sort of play open strings for ages before 454 00:28:54,676 --> 00:28:56,756 Speaker 1: you can even make one note sound good. And I 455 00:28:56,756 --> 00:28:59,276 Speaker 1: think as a child I was I didn't have the 456 00:28:59,276 --> 00:29:01,996 Speaker 1: patience for it. I want, I wanted to hit the 457 00:29:02,116 --> 00:29:04,996 Speaker 1: drama and to go back, and that was so kind 458 00:29:05,036 --> 00:29:08,036 Speaker 1: of instantaneous, you know. So what was your first instrument 459 00:29:08,076 --> 00:29:10,916 Speaker 1: after the violin? I suppose my first real instrument was 460 00:29:10,596 --> 00:29:13,476 Speaker 1: that the cassio, a cassio keyboard. So I think I 461 00:29:13,516 --> 00:29:15,796 Speaker 1: played something called a CTK eleven. I think it was called. 462 00:29:15,996 --> 00:29:19,636 Speaker 1: But it was just a bog standard but excellent keyboard 463 00:29:19,716 --> 00:29:21,836 Speaker 1: with two hundred sounds and one hundred rhythms, you know, 464 00:29:21,836 --> 00:29:23,716 Speaker 1: so the rhythms you go through all these different genres 465 00:29:23,716 --> 00:29:26,316 Speaker 1: you have sort of you know, Boston over and and 466 00:29:27,236 --> 00:29:30,396 Speaker 1: poker and rock and roll and stuff like this, and 467 00:29:30,436 --> 00:29:31,916 Speaker 1: it was it was great, you know, you skip through 468 00:29:31,916 --> 00:29:37,716 Speaker 1: the things and it would go, you know, and you 469 00:29:37,796 --> 00:29:40,676 Speaker 1: go through and I learned kind of learned how music worked. 470 00:29:40,716 --> 00:29:44,356 Speaker 1: Through that thing, and then you have these sounds trombone, tympani, 471 00:29:44,836 --> 00:29:47,516 Speaker 1: you know, vibraphone, viola, or it sounds like I wouldn't 472 00:29:48,156 --> 00:29:50,596 Speaker 1: know that these sounds in the real world unless I'd 473 00:29:50,596 --> 00:29:53,316 Speaker 1: had access to that instrument. Nowadays, I mean, man, it's 474 00:29:53,316 --> 00:29:55,116 Speaker 1: crazy now what you can do. And in something like 475 00:29:55,116 --> 00:29:58,636 Speaker 1: garage band or logic, there's all these extraordinarily well recorded 476 00:29:58,676 --> 00:30:02,716 Speaker 1: samples of you know, full orchestra, synthesizers, drum machines. It's 477 00:30:02,756 --> 00:30:05,876 Speaker 1: it's really kind of overwhelming and amazing, and I think 478 00:30:06,116 --> 00:30:08,236 Speaker 1: growing up now as as a musician, there's so many 479 00:30:08,236 --> 00:30:11,116 Speaker 1: things you can play with, which is both thrilling and 480 00:30:11,156 --> 00:30:14,436 Speaker 1: also troubling because one of the great things about that 481 00:30:14,476 --> 00:30:16,556 Speaker 1: keyboard is there were just two hundred sounds. I didn't 482 00:30:16,556 --> 00:30:18,476 Speaker 1: have any more than two hundred. Now there's infinite that 483 00:30:18,516 --> 00:30:21,916 Speaker 1: sounds any sound in the world. So I loved having 484 00:30:21,956 --> 00:30:24,236 Speaker 1: that as a device or exploration. There's even a little 485 00:30:24,276 --> 00:30:26,756 Speaker 1: sampler inside where you could layer things up. So I 486 00:30:26,756 --> 00:30:30,916 Speaker 1: would do like a drum, a drum beat, and then 487 00:30:30,916 --> 00:30:32,316 Speaker 1: I would on the second one, I would do bass, 488 00:30:33,756 --> 00:30:35,876 Speaker 1: you know. Then I'd do a piano thing, or a branch, 489 00:30:35,916 --> 00:30:39,356 Speaker 1: trumpets or whatever. And just playing around and music was 490 00:30:39,396 --> 00:30:44,156 Speaker 1: going in to my mind because my whole family was 491 00:30:44,356 --> 00:30:46,276 Speaker 1: musical and there was in every corner of the house 492 00:30:46,316 --> 00:30:48,396 Speaker 1: that someone was either playing or listening to music. So 493 00:30:48,596 --> 00:30:50,396 Speaker 1: it wasn't like there was a shortage of material. But 494 00:30:50,956 --> 00:30:52,876 Speaker 1: the crucial thing for me was having a keyboard, an 495 00:30:52,916 --> 00:30:55,916 Speaker 1: instrument where I could actually throw paint and for it 496 00:30:55,956 --> 00:30:58,396 Speaker 1: to stick. And when I was seven years old, I 497 00:30:58,396 --> 00:31:01,436 Speaker 1: actually got this recording stuff I called cue bass, which 498 00:31:01,476 --> 00:31:02,996 Speaker 1: is a way in which you can layer tracks in 499 00:31:03,036 --> 00:31:05,836 Speaker 1: the computer, and that was very exciting for me. You know, 500 00:31:05,996 --> 00:31:09,636 Speaker 1: little kids pick out melodies on tiny keyboards. You always 501 00:31:09,636 --> 00:31:11,916 Speaker 1: interested in harmonizing those notes. Yeah, for me, it was 502 00:31:11,996 --> 00:31:16,836 Speaker 1: chords chords first, but I mean melody was was was inevitable, 503 00:31:16,916 --> 00:31:18,836 Speaker 1: but but harmony was the thing that I really got 504 00:31:18,996 --> 00:31:20,516 Speaker 1: got my rocks off on. It was like, whoa you 505 00:31:20,556 --> 00:31:24,956 Speaker 1: can that's crazy? Oh man, that's a that's an unbelievable sound. 506 00:31:24,956 --> 00:31:27,996 Speaker 1: There's so many things going on there for someone like 507 00:31:27,996 --> 00:31:29,956 Speaker 1: as a kid, for someone with musical ears to get 508 00:31:29,996 --> 00:31:36,276 Speaker 1: my ears around. Wow, there's there's five sounds there, but 509 00:31:36,396 --> 00:31:39,236 Speaker 1: they are together one sound. And there's also within that 510 00:31:39,556 --> 00:31:42,036 Speaker 1: this sound and this sound which are two different worlds 511 00:31:42,436 --> 00:31:45,196 Speaker 1: and they rub against each other. Oh, and just like that, 512 00:31:45,236 --> 00:31:47,316 Speaker 1: the rubbing, I mean that that's such a special part 513 00:31:47,316 --> 00:31:48,716 Speaker 1: of music for me, is just like the way that 514 00:31:48,796 --> 00:31:51,196 Speaker 1: notes interact with each other. But as a as a kid, 515 00:31:51,196 --> 00:32:00,236 Speaker 1: I mean, I would sit at the piano for hours 516 00:32:00,236 --> 00:32:06,436 Speaker 1: just doing this, and then I'd move one note. It 517 00:32:06,556 --> 00:32:31,876 Speaker 1: changes everything, right, note by note it changes and each 518 00:32:31,876 --> 00:32:33,556 Speaker 1: one of these is a different universe. It's just a 519 00:32:33,556 --> 00:32:39,516 Speaker 1: different world, and I feel myself moved by them. I'm 520 00:32:39,556 --> 00:32:42,636 Speaker 1: moved by the way that these interact and feel. And 521 00:32:44,516 --> 00:32:46,596 Speaker 1: so yeah, I think as a kid, you can take 522 00:32:46,596 --> 00:32:49,436 Speaker 1: any melody in the world. That's fine, But it's the 523 00:32:49,476 --> 00:32:54,236 Speaker 1: way that you clothe it that that is really what 524 00:32:54,316 --> 00:32:57,276 Speaker 1: thrills me most. I'm assuming just watching you you have 525 00:32:57,316 --> 00:32:59,876 Speaker 1: perfect pitch, I do. Yeah. Do you think that helped 526 00:33:00,036 --> 00:33:03,036 Speaker 1: you sort of figure out the relationships between them? Thinks? 527 00:33:03,036 --> 00:33:04,956 Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, if you take this sound, you know, 528 00:33:05,156 --> 00:33:07,156 Speaker 1: being able to hear, be able to ascertain that there's 529 00:33:07,156 --> 00:33:11,036 Speaker 1: a D sharp and a G sharp I any is helpful. 530 00:33:11,756 --> 00:33:14,956 Speaker 1: I don't think that you need perfect pitch to become 531 00:33:15,156 --> 00:33:18,636 Speaker 1: interested and very good at this, but it's like a 532 00:33:18,636 --> 00:33:21,596 Speaker 1: sort of cheat code kind of it's like an ease 533 00:33:21,636 --> 00:33:24,036 Speaker 1: of access, you know, being able to say be flat, 534 00:33:24,116 --> 00:33:25,956 Speaker 1: like I know that's a B flat, but without having 535 00:33:25,996 --> 00:33:29,396 Speaker 1: to check an instrument. It mostly helps with with audience 536 00:33:29,436 --> 00:33:31,716 Speaker 1: singing actually because I don't have to refer to an 537 00:33:31,756 --> 00:33:33,916 Speaker 1: instrument to get the audience to sing a chord, which 538 00:33:33,916 --> 00:33:35,636 Speaker 1: maybe that safe for example, of the introduction to a 539 00:33:35,636 --> 00:33:37,716 Speaker 1: song came. Then sit down and play a song and 540 00:33:37,756 --> 00:33:39,556 Speaker 1: they're already in the key that I was in, but 541 00:33:39,636 --> 00:33:43,356 Speaker 1: without me, without me having to check or okay, you 542 00:33:43,396 --> 00:33:44,836 Speaker 1: know it's it's not I can kind of plug the 543 00:33:44,916 --> 00:33:47,236 Speaker 1: notes out of my mind and and that that's actually 544 00:33:47,276 --> 00:33:50,436 Speaker 1: very handy. There's nothing crazily supernatural about it. I think 545 00:33:50,436 --> 00:33:52,636 Speaker 1: it's just it's a type of memory that you can 546 00:33:53,156 --> 00:33:55,436 Speaker 1: develop if you're very familiar with the particular way of 547 00:33:55,476 --> 00:33:59,276 Speaker 1: thinking and working. So there was clearly classical music in 548 00:33:59,316 --> 00:34:01,516 Speaker 1: your house for sure. Growing up. One of the kinds 549 00:34:01,556 --> 00:34:04,316 Speaker 1: of music was it you mentioned Stevie Wondering. Where did 550 00:34:04,316 --> 00:34:07,156 Speaker 1: you first hear Stevie Wonder? Oh my mom is like 551 00:34:07,196 --> 00:34:10,316 Speaker 1: the biggest Stevie Wonder fan, and she's she's all about Stevie, 552 00:34:10,396 --> 00:34:11,636 Speaker 1: and I think, yeah, as a kid, it was just 553 00:34:11,716 --> 00:34:14,836 Speaker 1: it was so many, so many parts of Stevie's discography 554 00:34:14,916 --> 00:34:17,476 Speaker 1: would just be in the house. I remember there's an 555 00:34:17,516 --> 00:34:19,356 Speaker 1: album he may called Hotter than July, and the first 556 00:34:19,356 --> 00:34:20,996 Speaker 1: song on that album is called did I Hear You Say? 557 00:34:21,396 --> 00:34:27,356 Speaker 1: And it starts with this like oh, and it was 558 00:34:27,396 --> 00:34:30,276 Speaker 1: so exciting. I remember dancing as it, just dancing as 559 00:34:30,316 --> 00:34:33,396 Speaker 1: a child, thinking I'm so exciting, you know, it's so 560 00:34:33,396 --> 00:34:36,196 Speaker 1: so fun. He is one of those artists that, even 561 00:34:36,196 --> 00:34:38,716 Speaker 1: with all the gold records and all the acclaim, he's 562 00:34:38,756 --> 00:34:42,636 Speaker 1: still strangely underrated. Yeah, I would say so. I mean, yeah, 563 00:34:42,716 --> 00:34:44,676 Speaker 1: underrates that. It's a funny word. But I think that 564 00:34:45,196 --> 00:34:46,636 Speaker 1: I think the thing when you're when you get as 565 00:34:46,636 --> 00:34:49,436 Speaker 1: big as Stevie has gotten, is that you're taken at 566 00:34:49,436 --> 00:34:52,876 Speaker 1: face value as someone who is just big only and 567 00:34:52,956 --> 00:34:55,196 Speaker 1: big big is not the deepest you can be. You know, 568 00:34:55,276 --> 00:34:58,676 Speaker 1: big is big is a scale question, not not a 569 00:34:58,716 --> 00:35:03,236 Speaker 1: breadth or depth question. And so Stevie did achieve the 570 00:35:03,516 --> 00:35:06,116 Speaker 1: biggness of scale. But I think the thing that he 571 00:35:06,156 --> 00:35:08,436 Speaker 1: achieved that was more important. And I think the thing 572 00:35:08,436 --> 00:35:10,596 Speaker 1: that has stayed, the that stood the test of time, 573 00:35:10,636 --> 00:35:12,356 Speaker 1: and the thing that I revere and all of my 574 00:35:12,396 --> 00:35:19,356 Speaker 1: Peers Revere is the depth of what he was doing sonically, harmonically, vocally, tonally, lyrically, politically. 575 00:35:19,396 --> 00:35:21,476 Speaker 1: I mean, he's just so in touch with everything, and so, 576 00:35:21,996 --> 00:35:23,596 Speaker 1: you know, I think the idea that he was able 577 00:35:23,636 --> 00:35:26,396 Speaker 1: to scale that depth on such a global scale is huge. 578 00:35:26,436 --> 00:35:28,156 Speaker 1: But it's funny when you say, yeah, he's underwater. I 579 00:35:28,156 --> 00:35:29,996 Speaker 1: think perhaps it's because people think, oh Steve, oh yeah, 580 00:35:30,036 --> 00:35:31,996 Speaker 1: he's really famous, isn't it. You know, he's a really 581 00:35:32,036 --> 00:35:34,196 Speaker 1: famous musician and he does lots of songs that everyone knows, 582 00:35:34,556 --> 00:35:37,756 Speaker 1: which is very true. But the deeper you go into Stevie, 583 00:35:37,956 --> 00:35:41,916 Speaker 1: the more you feel, and I think that's like a 584 00:35:41,996 --> 00:35:45,236 Speaker 1: real sign of greatness. Is that? Also, don't you worry 585 00:35:45,276 --> 00:35:47,356 Speaker 1: about a thing that the song that made you famous 586 00:35:47,356 --> 00:35:50,036 Speaker 1: because you did a YouTube version of it. That's from 587 00:35:50,116 --> 00:35:52,636 Speaker 1: his best side of music. I think the second side 588 00:35:52,676 --> 00:35:55,636 Speaker 1: of Interrovisions. I think it's like the best side of 589 00:35:55,676 --> 00:36:03,036 Speaker 1: any It's higher ground. Jesus, Children of America, you haven't done. Yeah, 590 00:36:03,076 --> 00:36:06,196 Speaker 1: that's fulfilling. This Oh man, that album is just crazy. Yeah, 591 00:36:05,916 --> 00:36:09,636 Speaker 1: it's album. It ends with the mister no just oh yes, 592 00:36:09,876 --> 00:36:12,876 Speaker 1: such an incredible god. It's just it. I mean, such 593 00:36:12,916 --> 00:36:14,596 Speaker 1: a statement, and I think you can also you hear 594 00:36:14,636 --> 00:36:17,356 Speaker 1: when he's you here, when he's thirsty and so from 595 00:36:17,396 --> 00:36:19,796 Speaker 1: I think my favorite currently, my favorite Steve album might 596 00:36:19,836 --> 00:36:22,636 Speaker 1: be Talking Book. And it's not because it's his most 597 00:36:22,756 --> 00:36:26,636 Speaker 1: refined album or complete as a thought process. It's it's 598 00:36:26,676 --> 00:36:30,396 Speaker 1: that he's so he's so thirsty to figure it out. 599 00:36:30,476 --> 00:36:32,876 Speaker 1: He's like, he just wants to write songs. Can He's 600 00:36:32,876 --> 00:36:36,156 Speaker 1: just so desperate to play around with with stuff, and 601 00:36:36,156 --> 00:36:38,316 Speaker 1: and you can you can feel him being and he's 602 00:36:38,316 --> 00:36:40,596 Speaker 1: twenty one when he's doing that up. He's discovering it 603 00:36:40,636 --> 00:36:43,236 Speaker 1: before our ears, you know, before our eyes. He's figuring 604 00:36:43,276 --> 00:36:46,236 Speaker 1: it out on that album. And I think that later 605 00:36:46,316 --> 00:36:49,596 Speaker 1: on in his career he'd figured it out already more. 606 00:36:50,196 --> 00:36:53,276 Speaker 1: And I mean nothing he's ever made has not been tremendous, 607 00:36:53,516 --> 00:36:56,156 Speaker 1: But I think that there's a youth and an experience 608 00:36:56,276 --> 00:37:01,676 Speaker 1: of gathering and being moved by something in the present 609 00:37:01,836 --> 00:37:03,756 Speaker 1: about that early stuff where he's he's just he's just 610 00:37:03,836 --> 00:37:05,516 Speaker 1: ravenous for it. And you can tell that as a 611 00:37:05,676 --> 00:37:08,916 Speaker 1: as a listener. It's interesting reading back about him and 612 00:37:09,276 --> 00:37:12,316 Speaker 1: time because there was a point in which Motown sort 613 00:37:12,356 --> 00:37:13,876 Speaker 1: of thought it was over for him, that he was 614 00:37:13,916 --> 00:37:17,196 Speaker 1: a child prodigy. You might sympathize with this because you 615 00:37:17,196 --> 00:37:19,676 Speaker 1: were so young when you started. They thought he'd peeked. 616 00:37:19,836 --> 00:37:22,196 Speaker 1: And then I think he produced that great Spinner's song 617 00:37:22,516 --> 00:37:24,316 Speaker 1: It's a shame, and I always thought that was so 618 00:37:24,396 --> 00:37:26,796 Speaker 1: unfair because he's not a guitar player primarily, but it's 619 00:37:26,836 --> 00:37:30,556 Speaker 1: one of the greatest guitar licks of all time. That, yeah, 620 00:37:30,596 --> 00:37:32,356 Speaker 1: how did he do that? No, I know for sure 621 00:37:32,476 --> 00:37:34,756 Speaker 1: that the thing that I think with Stevie was so 622 00:37:34,796 --> 00:37:36,436 Speaker 1: cool and I think we need to remember is you know, 623 00:37:36,476 --> 00:37:38,436 Speaker 1: he made that album called Where I'm Coming From right. 624 00:37:38,476 --> 00:37:40,396 Speaker 1: He was twenty years old when he made it, and 625 00:37:40,436 --> 00:37:42,636 Speaker 1: it was kind of his first record after the Motown years, 626 00:37:42,636 --> 00:37:44,596 Speaker 1: where he thought, okay, this is a statement and it's 627 00:37:44,596 --> 00:37:47,316 Speaker 1: a weird album. Man, it's dark and gnarli and it's 628 00:37:47,396 --> 00:37:50,636 Speaker 1: it's not you know, it's not amongst his most palatable work, 629 00:37:50,756 --> 00:37:52,956 Speaker 1: but he needed to make that album. It's there's some 630 00:37:53,036 --> 00:37:55,236 Speaker 1: amazing stuff on there. And I think that the amazing 631 00:37:55,276 --> 00:37:58,956 Speaker 1: thing is that he was given the chance to make 632 00:37:58,996 --> 00:38:00,836 Speaker 1: that album. It's like, of course you of course made 633 00:38:00,876 --> 00:38:02,436 Speaker 1: and we'll put it out. Of course we'll put it out. 634 00:38:02,556 --> 00:38:04,276 Speaker 1: Because if he hadn't made that album. If he tried 635 00:38:04,316 --> 00:38:07,236 Speaker 1: to make a hit record at twenty, he wouldn't have 636 00:38:07,236 --> 00:38:09,956 Speaker 1: done it because he needed to go into that depth 637 00:38:10,396 --> 00:38:12,276 Speaker 1: and the depth of music of My Mind and Talking 638 00:38:12,316 --> 00:38:14,836 Speaker 1: Book before he managed to get to something like Inner Visions, 639 00:38:14,836 --> 00:38:16,316 Speaker 1: you know, or songs in the Key of Life. I 640 00:38:16,316 --> 00:38:18,196 Speaker 1: think that there's this kind of disease that you know, 641 00:38:18,236 --> 00:38:21,156 Speaker 1: you have to make if someone doesn't make popular music 642 00:38:21,196 --> 00:38:22,756 Speaker 1: at one point in their career, you know what, it's 643 00:38:22,796 --> 00:38:24,796 Speaker 1: all over for them, and it's all going downhill. I 644 00:38:24,796 --> 00:38:27,116 Speaker 1: think it's a it's a really tragic kind of thing 645 00:38:27,236 --> 00:38:34,756 Speaker 1: because people under fulfill their potential as experimenters by negating 646 00:38:35,076 --> 00:38:38,556 Speaker 1: some of the darker or more gnarly interesting, strange ideas 647 00:38:39,276 --> 00:38:42,116 Speaker 1: musically in favor of things to which people, which are 648 00:38:42,436 --> 00:38:46,196 Speaker 1: more people will like and relate to. And you know, 649 00:38:46,236 --> 00:38:48,716 Speaker 1: I think this is a problem that's it's deeper than 650 00:38:48,756 --> 00:38:51,396 Speaker 1: the music industry. I think it's it's a human tendency 651 00:38:51,476 --> 00:38:54,236 Speaker 1: I think to kind of disregard or think of parts 652 00:38:54,276 --> 00:38:57,396 Speaker 1: of ourselves, the non palatable or darker parts of our 653 00:38:57,436 --> 00:39:00,956 Speaker 1: personalities themselves, as kind of weaknesses you can say or 654 00:39:00,996 --> 00:39:03,356 Speaker 1: not things to be discussed or shared but I actually 655 00:39:03,356 --> 00:39:06,316 Speaker 1: think those things, those things make us so much, even 656 00:39:06,516 --> 00:39:09,876 Speaker 1: even more sometimes than the parts of us that we've 657 00:39:09,716 --> 00:39:11,756 Speaker 1: we've got all figured out. It's welcoming those parts of 658 00:39:11,796 --> 00:39:14,756 Speaker 1: yourself in that makes you a deep person and a 659 00:39:14,796 --> 00:39:17,636 Speaker 1: whole person and a real person, because you can't just 660 00:39:17,676 --> 00:39:19,956 Speaker 1: be the good stuff. You have to welcome in all 661 00:39:19,956 --> 00:39:22,756 Speaker 1: the stuff. And Stevie is such a shining example of 662 00:39:22,796 --> 00:39:26,076 Speaker 1: someone who musically really got in touch with the depth 663 00:39:26,116 --> 00:39:30,876 Speaker 1: of an experiment and through that came around to these 664 00:39:30,996 --> 00:39:35,996 Speaker 1: totally eternal, universal songs which borrowed from and learned from 665 00:39:35,996 --> 00:39:39,076 Speaker 1: and gleaned from the kind of experiments that were stranger, 666 00:39:39,796 --> 00:39:43,116 Speaker 1: and had he not done, would not have informed those experiments, 667 00:39:43,116 --> 00:39:45,356 Speaker 1: and I think would not have made that music quite 668 00:39:45,356 --> 00:39:48,436 Speaker 1: so deep now as someone who started so young and 669 00:39:48,556 --> 00:39:51,316 Speaker 1: was part either so young, Is that a journey you're 670 00:39:51,396 --> 00:39:54,676 Speaker 1: conscious of making, I would say so. I think my 671 00:39:54,796 --> 00:39:57,756 Speaker 1: career started almost by accident. I didn't think of myself 672 00:39:57,756 --> 00:39:59,596 Speaker 1: as starting off a career when I was making those 673 00:39:59,596 --> 00:40:01,476 Speaker 1: YouTube videos at home. I thought, I'll just make some 674 00:40:01,596 --> 00:40:04,836 Speaker 1: videos and it'd be really fun. And mostly I really 675 00:40:05,156 --> 00:40:06,916 Speaker 1: I just wanted to push myself musically as far as 676 00:40:06,916 --> 00:40:09,396 Speaker 1: I could possibly go in every direction, because I was 677 00:40:09,436 --> 00:40:12,876 Speaker 1: so ravenous for understanding staff and for playing around with stuff, 678 00:40:12,876 --> 00:40:14,556 Speaker 1: and so I did that stuff, and it was it 679 00:40:14,596 --> 00:40:17,196 Speaker 1: was almost this kind of this accidental symptom of those 680 00:40:17,196 --> 00:40:19,636 Speaker 1: experiments that people started to listen to the music. And 681 00:40:20,316 --> 00:40:22,396 Speaker 1: I remember I got an email from Take six, my 682 00:40:22,476 --> 00:40:25,156 Speaker 1: childoed heroes, and and that was closely followed by an 683 00:40:25,156 --> 00:40:27,596 Speaker 1: email from Pat Matheny, who was not one of my heroes, 684 00:40:27,636 --> 00:40:29,636 Speaker 1: and then following that it was Herbie Hancock, and then 685 00:40:29,876 --> 00:40:32,156 Speaker 1: finally it was Quincy Jones and and I think that's 686 00:40:32,196 --> 00:40:34,156 Speaker 1: when I sort of thought, gosh, perhaps there is something 687 00:40:34,156 --> 00:40:36,276 Speaker 1: in what I'm doing that you could describe as having 688 00:40:36,276 --> 00:40:39,116 Speaker 1: a career being a musician or being an artist. You know, 689 00:40:39,396 --> 00:40:42,596 Speaker 1: I thought of myself as someone who is eternally fascinated 690 00:40:42,636 --> 00:40:45,356 Speaker 1: and playing around. And I'm a musician for sure, But 691 00:40:45,876 --> 00:40:47,916 Speaker 1: I don't know if I thought about myself as a 692 00:40:47,916 --> 00:40:50,876 Speaker 1: as an artist for a little while yet. And I 693 00:40:50,916 --> 00:40:53,236 Speaker 1: suppose it wasn't until I made this album called in 694 00:40:53,276 --> 00:40:54,676 Speaker 1: My Room, which is the first album I made, and 695 00:40:54,716 --> 00:40:56,436 Speaker 1: I made it on my own, in this room in London. 696 00:40:56,756 --> 00:40:58,796 Speaker 1: That's when I really thought, Okay, I'm going to write 697 00:40:58,836 --> 00:41:00,636 Speaker 1: some songs which I hadn't really done much of before, 698 00:41:01,236 --> 00:41:02,756 Speaker 1: and I put this music into the world, and I 699 00:41:02,796 --> 00:41:05,436 Speaker 1: think that's when I'll feel like this is my story 700 00:41:05,596 --> 00:41:07,676 Speaker 1: at the beginning, you know, even though my story had 701 00:41:07,676 --> 00:41:09,796 Speaker 1: been going for twenty years before, with the experience I've 702 00:41:09,796 --> 00:41:11,476 Speaker 1: been doing, it felt like that was the first time 703 00:41:11,516 --> 00:41:13,476 Speaker 1: I'd kind of thought, Okay, this is a statement that 704 00:41:13,516 --> 00:41:18,516 Speaker 1: I'm making as a cohesive Jacobean thing. And I felt 705 00:41:18,556 --> 00:41:20,436 Speaker 1: really strongly that I wanted to kind of produce the 706 00:41:20,476 --> 00:41:22,876 Speaker 1: album myself and mix it myself. And I played every 707 00:41:22,876 --> 00:41:25,076 Speaker 1: instrument on the album when I did every single thing 708 00:41:25,116 --> 00:41:26,796 Speaker 1: for that album myself, because there were all sorts of 709 00:41:26,796 --> 00:41:28,756 Speaker 1: people who thought, oh, can I produce it or can 710 00:41:28,756 --> 00:41:31,476 Speaker 1: I mix it? Whatever? And I was quite firm about 711 00:41:31,556 --> 00:41:34,556 Speaker 1: doing it myself in some ways. It regardless as to 712 00:41:34,596 --> 00:41:36,396 Speaker 1: whether that was even the right thing musically, I think 713 00:41:36,436 --> 00:41:38,516 Speaker 1: it was definitely the right thing philosophically for me because 714 00:41:38,516 --> 00:41:40,556 Speaker 1: I was able to learn how it felt to be 715 00:41:40,596 --> 00:41:42,796 Speaker 1: the author of all the different parts of my experience 716 00:41:42,796 --> 00:41:47,836 Speaker 1: and my exploration. And I definitely took my time, and 717 00:41:47,876 --> 00:41:50,236 Speaker 1: I'm very glad that I did. And I would credit 718 00:41:50,356 --> 00:41:53,436 Speaker 1: not only Quincy who at that time. Was he became 719 00:41:53,596 --> 00:41:56,636 Speaker 1: a sort of godfather slash manager figure to me, but 720 00:41:56,756 --> 00:41:59,396 Speaker 1: also someone like my mum who was just so present 721 00:41:59,476 --> 00:42:02,276 Speaker 1: in the process and very much encouraged me not to rush. 722 00:42:02,356 --> 00:42:05,236 Speaker 1: I think my mum's never really cared about the idea 723 00:42:05,236 --> 00:42:07,156 Speaker 1: of oh gosh, you know, Jacob's a big star, always 724 00:42:07,156 --> 00:42:10,756 Speaker 1: got celebrity. It didn't really feature in her mind. I 725 00:42:10,796 --> 00:42:13,436 Speaker 1: was never put under any pressure. We should point out 726 00:42:13,556 --> 00:42:15,436 Speaker 1: you're wearing a T shirt or you're sorry, you're wearing 727 00:42:15,436 --> 00:42:17,836 Speaker 1: a sweatshirt. It's your mother's name on it, right that 728 00:42:17,916 --> 00:42:21,676 Speaker 1: this Yes, Susie Collier number one fan. Right, yes, says 729 00:42:21,676 --> 00:42:23,876 Speaker 1: Susie Colliers number one fan. It was given to some 730 00:42:23,956 --> 00:42:25,836 Speaker 1: of my mum by a found out my mom's that 731 00:42:26,796 --> 00:42:29,196 Speaker 1: should be the only thing in your merch table. Yeah, totally. 732 00:42:29,516 --> 00:42:31,996 Speaker 1: I'm I'm so here for that. She truly is the greatest, 733 00:42:32,036 --> 00:42:33,596 Speaker 1: and I think she had a way a meeting since 734 00:42:33,636 --> 00:42:35,636 Speaker 1: I was very very young, of not not put me 735 00:42:35,716 --> 00:42:37,956 Speaker 1: under pressure to be a thing. It was a question 736 00:42:37,996 --> 00:42:40,116 Speaker 1: more than an answer. It was how do you see 737 00:42:40,116 --> 00:42:41,836 Speaker 1: the world, Jacob, But how do you hear this? How 738 00:42:41,876 --> 00:42:44,756 Speaker 1: do you experience this? We'll be right back after a 739 00:42:44,836 --> 00:42:52,156 Speaker 1: quick break with more from Jacob Collier. We're back with 740 00:42:52,196 --> 00:42:56,316 Speaker 1: the rest of Bruce Ellen's conversation with Jacob Collier. Did 741 00:42:56,316 --> 00:42:59,036 Speaker 1: you have trouble letting go? Because sometimes people who go 742 00:42:59,076 --> 00:43:01,876 Speaker 1: into studios this is the myth of I don't mean 743 00:43:01,876 --> 00:43:03,276 Speaker 1: the myth that it's not true, but I mean the 744 00:43:03,316 --> 00:43:05,676 Speaker 1: mythology of Brian Wilson. He goes in to do Smile 745 00:43:05,836 --> 00:43:08,556 Speaker 1: and it can't get finished. Could you've trouble just saying 746 00:43:08,596 --> 00:43:10,236 Speaker 1: at some point it's got to go out in the world, 747 00:43:10,276 --> 00:43:11,956 Speaker 1: it has to be done. Yeah, I have. I definitely 748 00:43:11,956 --> 00:43:15,316 Speaker 1: experienced trouble in that way. I think when you have awareness, 749 00:43:15,916 --> 00:43:17,996 Speaker 1: you're awake to all the different elements of something. Or 750 00:43:18,156 --> 00:43:19,956 Speaker 1: I could just make this, I could turn the kick 751 00:43:20,036 --> 00:43:21,956 Speaker 1: drum up zero point five dB, or I could I 752 00:43:21,916 --> 00:43:23,516 Speaker 1: could equ out a little bit of two hundred and 753 00:43:23,516 --> 00:43:25,916 Speaker 1: forty hurts from the vocal. Or oh, I could just 754 00:43:26,156 --> 00:43:27,996 Speaker 1: nudge that drum thing by a tenth of a second. 755 00:43:27,996 --> 00:43:29,556 Speaker 1: You know, those kinds of details when you when you're 756 00:43:29,556 --> 00:43:31,156 Speaker 1: aware of them, it's really hard to let go over them. 757 00:43:31,196 --> 00:43:33,876 Speaker 1: Because everything you hear in your own music when you're 758 00:43:33,916 --> 00:43:37,036 Speaker 1: making it becomes those kinds of zeros and ones. If 759 00:43:37,076 --> 00:43:38,556 Speaker 1: it was just a tiny bit this way, then it 760 00:43:38,556 --> 00:43:40,036 Speaker 1: would be more, it would be better, it would be 761 00:43:40,076 --> 00:43:42,596 Speaker 1: more emotional, it would be more a more concise statement. 762 00:43:42,716 --> 00:43:44,996 Speaker 1: And sometimes as well, it's like it's loosening. Oh it's 763 00:43:44,996 --> 00:43:46,796 Speaker 1: too tight. I need to make it sloppier. Let me 764 00:43:46,796 --> 00:43:47,956 Speaker 1: just make it a little bit sloppier, and then it's 765 00:43:47,956 --> 00:43:49,956 Speaker 1: gonna be just right. And all this is possible now 766 00:43:51,196 --> 00:43:53,516 Speaker 1: in a way that wasn't available. Yeah, I mean, this 767 00:43:53,596 --> 00:43:56,516 Speaker 1: is the thing is the miracle and the disease of 768 00:43:56,516 --> 00:43:59,556 Speaker 1: our time is that these tweaks are endlessly possible. So 769 00:43:59,796 --> 00:44:01,356 Speaker 1: I mean exactly as you say, I think there is 770 00:44:01,356 --> 00:44:03,396 Speaker 1: a there's a certain point where it's like, well, I 771 00:44:03,476 --> 00:44:06,676 Speaker 1: need a deadline to work against, you know, so so 772 00:44:06,756 --> 00:44:08,196 Speaker 1: that things get done or things can be born int 773 00:44:08,236 --> 00:44:10,236 Speaker 1: the world, because if there is not a deadline, it's 774 00:44:10,276 --> 00:44:14,236 Speaker 1: just this utter infinite thing that it could always I 775 00:44:14,236 --> 00:44:16,036 Speaker 1: could always do a new thing or a fresh thing, 776 00:44:16,116 --> 00:44:18,716 Speaker 1: or a tweak or whatever. That said, there are certain 777 00:44:18,756 --> 00:44:20,556 Speaker 1: things I think that I that I make and have 778 00:44:20,596 --> 00:44:22,636 Speaker 1: made over the years, and I'm experiencing now I'm making 779 00:44:23,436 --> 00:44:26,076 Speaker 1: where I know that I can't do the thing I 780 00:44:26,116 --> 00:44:28,556 Speaker 1: did better than the thing that I just did. I 781 00:44:28,556 --> 00:44:31,316 Speaker 1: think when you're faced with total infinity, which is one 782 00:44:31,356 --> 00:44:34,916 Speaker 1: of the kind of privileges and challenges of my life creatively, 783 00:44:35,516 --> 00:44:38,796 Speaker 1: there are immense reliefs to be found when you ground 784 00:44:38,796 --> 00:44:41,476 Speaker 1: yourself in a particular form. I'll get thank good as 785 00:44:41,476 --> 00:44:42,916 Speaker 1: I found a form. It's one of the reasons I 786 00:44:42,916 --> 00:44:44,396 Speaker 1: love playing these songs on the road so much is 787 00:44:44,396 --> 00:44:47,876 Speaker 1: because I'm it's it's totally unlimited, but I'm held together 788 00:44:47,956 --> 00:44:51,276 Speaker 1: by the fact that there's a song with words and 789 00:44:51,476 --> 00:44:54,156 Speaker 1: a beginning, middle and an end, and a crowd in 790 00:44:54,196 --> 00:44:56,996 Speaker 1: a room. There's just the right criteria for me to 791 00:44:57,036 --> 00:45:00,036 Speaker 1: feel actually very free. Because if I were with a 792 00:45:00,076 --> 00:45:03,356 Speaker 1: song at home with no audience, in my own spare time, 793 00:45:03,636 --> 00:45:06,156 Speaker 1: it's way for it to gather form because there aren't 794 00:45:06,156 --> 00:45:09,076 Speaker 1: the confines of a listening crowd, an audience who can 795 00:45:09,276 --> 00:45:12,236 Speaker 1: sing and who who are aware and awakes to the music, 796 00:45:12,276 --> 00:45:14,116 Speaker 1: and a certain amount of time in the set that 797 00:45:14,116 --> 00:45:15,396 Speaker 1: I need to feel you know, all these things that 798 00:45:15,476 --> 00:45:18,156 Speaker 1: make that possible. I think for me, Yeah, one of 799 00:45:18,196 --> 00:45:22,036 Speaker 1: the creative quests of my life is ways to contain 800 00:45:22,636 --> 00:45:25,236 Speaker 1: my ideas and my essence. And when I do it well, 801 00:45:25,916 --> 00:45:29,636 Speaker 1: I think it's you know, a concise expression of infinity. 802 00:45:29,876 --> 00:45:33,076 Speaker 1: That's kind of what I aim for. And it's much 803 00:45:33,116 --> 00:45:36,916 Speaker 1: easier said than done, because I find that that. Yeah, 804 00:45:36,916 --> 00:45:39,636 Speaker 1: there's so much in the world to express and explain, 805 00:45:39,716 --> 00:45:43,156 Speaker 1: and there's so many ways to say things. But there 806 00:45:43,156 --> 00:45:45,476 Speaker 1: are those times, even say with the English language, where 807 00:45:45,516 --> 00:45:47,116 Speaker 1: you say something with a sentence in a way that 808 00:45:47,156 --> 00:45:48,996 Speaker 1: it could not have been better said than the way 809 00:45:49,036 --> 00:45:51,396 Speaker 1: you've said it. That's like writing a song where you think, what, 810 00:45:51,676 --> 00:45:53,076 Speaker 1: I don't need to try and write that song everyone, 811 00:45:53,116 --> 00:45:55,596 Speaker 1: because I've already written. It's done, and that's always such 812 00:45:55,636 --> 00:45:57,636 Speaker 1: a relief, think, oh God, it has done. I finished. 813 00:45:57,636 --> 00:46:00,476 Speaker 1: It's it's good. And those moments are very kind of 814 00:46:00,476 --> 00:46:03,436 Speaker 1: seldom and been very very welcome to me. You know, 815 00:46:03,476 --> 00:46:06,836 Speaker 1: you're making me think of the famous psychologists. Stephen Pinker 816 00:46:06,996 --> 00:46:09,996 Speaker 1: years ago at a conference, raged a lot of people 817 00:46:10,036 --> 00:46:14,676 Speaker 1: by saying that music had no evolutionary value, it was 818 00:46:14,756 --> 00:46:17,836 Speaker 1: not valuable in the evolution of people, and a lot 819 00:46:17,876 --> 00:46:21,236 Speaker 1: of other neuroscientists have said, well, actually, it's one of 820 00:46:21,236 --> 00:46:24,916 Speaker 1: the crucial ways we learn cause and effect and expectation. 821 00:46:25,156 --> 00:46:28,316 Speaker 1: Just as you said, every note you're playing it has 822 00:46:28,356 --> 00:46:30,716 Speaker 1: a home. It's trying to get to and that's something 823 00:46:30,756 --> 00:46:34,836 Speaker 1: that actually children learned from songs, oh totally. Whereas you know, pinkers, 824 00:46:34,956 --> 00:46:36,996 Speaker 1: I mean the awful world he was painting. I don't 825 00:46:36,996 --> 00:46:39,596 Speaker 1: mean in general, but of music is it's sort of formless, 826 00:46:39,596 --> 00:46:41,596 Speaker 1: and it does, it does go on forever, and you 827 00:46:41,636 --> 00:46:44,756 Speaker 1: can't contain it. Yeah. Well, I suppose then that brings 828 00:46:44,796 --> 00:46:46,796 Speaker 1: up the philosophical question of whether something that goes on 829 00:46:46,836 --> 00:46:51,836 Speaker 1: forever has value in the present or even in gathering 830 00:46:51,876 --> 00:46:55,396 Speaker 1: form over say generations. I would say yeah. I would 831 00:46:55,396 --> 00:46:59,396 Speaker 1: say music is very, very similar to language, spoken language, 832 00:46:59,436 --> 00:47:02,036 Speaker 1: or visual languag or whatever. And I think that as people, 833 00:47:02,436 --> 00:47:05,236 Speaker 1: we naturally have a yearning for and a gift for 834 00:47:05,276 --> 00:47:08,436 Speaker 1: connecting and communicating ideas to each other. One of the 835 00:47:08,436 --> 00:47:11,396 Speaker 1: things we do best. The music is one of the 836 00:47:11,436 --> 00:47:15,516 Speaker 1: more delicious dialects kind of in which we can do this. 837 00:47:16,396 --> 00:47:19,556 Speaker 1: But you can express by screaming or shouting or stamping 838 00:47:19,636 --> 00:47:23,516 Speaker 1: or roaring or talking or crying or laughing whatever these things. 839 00:47:23,516 --> 00:47:26,276 Speaker 1: And I think music is it's like an extended limb 840 00:47:26,276 --> 00:47:30,436 Speaker 1: of these sensations in life, and it's a really visceral 841 00:47:30,676 --> 00:47:33,476 Speaker 1: kind of coloring palette where you can you're able to 842 00:47:33,556 --> 00:47:36,516 Speaker 1: be very descriptive. If we stop communicating in person with 843 00:47:36,516 --> 00:47:39,916 Speaker 1: each other, if we end up being siloed within our 844 00:47:39,956 --> 00:47:41,956 Speaker 1: own languages are kind of digital languages and we don't 845 00:47:41,956 --> 00:47:44,676 Speaker 1: connect communicity. I think that's when we stop evolving, because 846 00:47:44,716 --> 00:47:47,636 Speaker 1: we evolve from each other, with each other by each 847 00:47:47,636 --> 00:47:50,316 Speaker 1: other's ways, each on our own terms, but as a collective. 848 00:47:50,356 --> 00:47:53,076 Speaker 1: And I think that music has an accelerated gift at 849 00:47:53,556 --> 00:47:56,276 Speaker 1: offering people experiences that give them access to that. I 850 00:47:56,316 --> 00:47:59,996 Speaker 1: think we've learned that's not what technology provides. It's like 851 00:48:00,036 --> 00:48:03,676 Speaker 1: a mirror in a sense. It's an extension of our natural, 852 00:48:04,196 --> 00:48:08,596 Speaker 1: very pure wish to form meaningful connections with each other. 853 00:48:08,636 --> 00:48:10,676 Speaker 1: And you know, I would say musically, I mean we 854 00:48:10,676 --> 00:48:12,596 Speaker 1: were discussing earlier on the idea if you know two 855 00:48:12,716 --> 00:48:15,596 Speaker 1: hundred sounds on a cassio versus you know two million 856 00:48:15,676 --> 00:48:19,996 Speaker 1: sounds in musical software, both sides are real. You could say, well, 857 00:48:20,036 --> 00:48:22,676 Speaker 1: what a pity. You know, there's so many possibilities and 858 00:48:22,716 --> 00:48:25,636 Speaker 1: so little guidance. You know, it's hard to make a start, 859 00:48:25,716 --> 00:48:27,756 Speaker 1: or it's hard to beat whatever. But you could also say, well, 860 00:48:27,836 --> 00:48:31,836 Speaker 1: what an immense cathartic relief that our children have a 861 00:48:31,876 --> 00:48:34,076 Speaker 1: way of playing with sounds that truly is as infinite 862 00:48:34,116 --> 00:48:36,596 Speaker 1: as the world and the only limit is their imaginations. 863 00:48:36,636 --> 00:48:40,516 Speaker 1: And so technology, I mean, it's enabled me to have 864 00:48:40,636 --> 00:48:43,436 Speaker 1: a career to share music with the world, to create 865 00:48:43,556 --> 00:48:47,716 Speaker 1: visual form, musical form, to collaborate with you know, hundreds 866 00:48:47,716 --> 00:48:51,316 Speaker 1: of musicians all over the world over FaceTime, and we 867 00:48:51,396 --> 00:48:54,076 Speaker 1: transfer and drop box all these kinds of things, let 868 00:48:54,116 --> 00:48:56,836 Speaker 1: alone amassing a digital audience. And I think, you know, 869 00:48:56,876 --> 00:48:59,996 Speaker 1: being able to share meaningful things with the world just 870 00:49:00,036 --> 00:49:02,996 Speaker 1: as much as it's distracted me as the same with 871 00:49:03,036 --> 00:49:04,716 Speaker 1: everyone else from the real world and takes me out 872 00:49:04,716 --> 00:49:06,876 Speaker 1: of the present and all sorts of things. But it's 873 00:49:07,156 --> 00:49:10,916 Speaker 1: a double edged sword, and it's able if we choose 874 00:49:11,516 --> 00:49:13,716 Speaker 1: to really augment the parts of us that make us 875 00:49:13,716 --> 00:49:17,356 Speaker 1: really human. Although for you you have the experience now 876 00:49:17,476 --> 00:49:20,676 Speaker 1: of playing in concert in which you're bringing all these 877 00:49:20,676 --> 00:49:23,836 Speaker 1: people into your songs. Growing up, did you play with 878 00:49:23,876 --> 00:49:26,436 Speaker 1: each other around the house? Was sort of collaborative music 879 00:49:26,476 --> 00:49:29,316 Speaker 1: a part of her growing out very much. So, so 880 00:49:29,356 --> 00:49:31,396 Speaker 1: we will sing in my house. So my family is 881 00:49:31,436 --> 00:49:33,916 Speaker 1: like me and my mum and my two little sisters, 882 00:49:33,956 --> 00:49:36,636 Speaker 1: and and so we we sing us mentioning Barker on 883 00:49:36,756 --> 00:49:41,396 Speaker 1: SATV Sopartelebates. We sing four part bark carras Christmas carols 884 00:49:41,396 --> 00:49:43,276 Speaker 1: like whenever we possibly can, whenever we other day we're 885 00:49:43,276 --> 00:49:45,356 Speaker 1: at all four in the house, which now is actually 886 00:49:45,436 --> 00:49:48,756 Speaker 1: quite seldom, but we'll sing. It's such a delight, it's 887 00:49:48,796 --> 00:49:51,476 Speaker 1: so so nice. And at school, you know, I started 888 00:49:51,476 --> 00:49:53,796 Speaker 1: lots of bands at school. I wore different hats, you know. 889 00:49:53,796 --> 00:49:56,716 Speaker 1: I started like an African drumming ensemble with a bunch 890 00:49:56,716 --> 00:49:59,036 Speaker 1: of gemba drums, and I started an improvisation and group 891 00:49:59,036 --> 00:50:01,316 Speaker 1: where everyone just improvised, And I played drum kit in 892 00:50:01,396 --> 00:50:04,356 Speaker 1: my concert band at school, and I did some arrangements 893 00:50:04,356 --> 00:50:06,636 Speaker 1: for the school choir, and I sang in the school quiet. 894 00:50:06,716 --> 00:50:08,556 Speaker 1: So I was kind of trying these different outfits of 895 00:50:08,556 --> 00:50:10,116 Speaker 1: working with other people, and I've really had had a 896 00:50:10,116 --> 00:50:12,916 Speaker 1: good time doing it. But I found that my fundamental 897 00:50:12,996 --> 00:50:16,796 Speaker 1: learning happened when I took whatever I learned home and 898 00:50:17,156 --> 00:50:21,556 Speaker 1: applied that to my own kind of internal introverted tapestries, 899 00:50:21,676 --> 00:50:23,716 Speaker 1: you know. And I think it's only over the last 900 00:50:23,716 --> 00:50:26,076 Speaker 1: ten years or so that I've really kind of learned 901 00:50:26,116 --> 00:50:28,916 Speaker 1: the skills or I'm still learning the skills of unpacking 902 00:50:28,956 --> 00:50:33,276 Speaker 1: those internal scientific balanced worlds and presenting them to people 903 00:50:33,316 --> 00:50:36,556 Speaker 1: in real life, you know. And it's funny. I've spoken 904 00:50:36,596 --> 00:50:39,636 Speaker 1: to people, some artists I really respect, really young and 905 00:50:40,076 --> 00:50:44,676 Speaker 1: people who blew up kind of over quarantine through videos online. 906 00:50:44,676 --> 00:50:46,476 Speaker 1: And now I'm faced with this challenge, or how do 907 00:50:46,556 --> 00:50:49,796 Speaker 1: I what is playing live? You know? How do I tour? 908 00:50:49,916 --> 00:50:51,996 Speaker 1: It's such such a different thing to do from sending 909 00:50:52,116 --> 00:50:54,636 Speaker 1: your phone on portrait mode and just playing out song 910 00:50:54,716 --> 00:50:57,396 Speaker 1: and having nice lighting. It's such a different thing to 911 00:50:57,436 --> 00:50:59,916 Speaker 1: stand on stage and say not just that I'm going 912 00:50:59,916 --> 00:51:01,396 Speaker 1: to sing the right notes and play my song, but 913 00:51:01,436 --> 00:51:03,436 Speaker 1: actually communicate that to a room. And I had to 914 00:51:03,436 --> 00:51:05,396 Speaker 1: figure that out over about a year or two when 915 00:51:05,436 --> 00:51:08,316 Speaker 1: I first started touring, because I told with a pretty 916 00:51:08,316 --> 00:51:10,676 Speaker 1: ambitious set up. I talked with the one man show. 917 00:51:10,756 --> 00:51:12,756 Speaker 1: So it was me in the center of a circle 918 00:51:12,756 --> 00:51:14,676 Speaker 1: of about twelve different musical instruments, and I was in 919 00:51:14,716 --> 00:51:16,956 Speaker 1: the middle essentially playing them all at once. So I 920 00:51:16,996 --> 00:51:18,956 Speaker 1: would play bass and it would loop, and drums it 921 00:51:18,956 --> 00:51:20,516 Speaker 1: would loop, and keys and it would loop, and guitar 922 00:51:20,556 --> 00:51:21,916 Speaker 1: and it would loop. Then I'd sing and I'd play 923 00:51:21,956 --> 00:51:24,356 Speaker 1: harmonizer and it was and I'd do a piano sol 924 00:51:24,396 --> 00:51:25,916 Speaker 1: over the thing, I'd loop, then it would change key. 925 00:51:25,916 --> 00:51:29,156 Speaker 1: You know. It was a very, very kind of involved production, 926 00:51:29,196 --> 00:51:32,316 Speaker 1: and it was it was quite singular from a technological 927 00:51:32,356 --> 00:51:34,716 Speaker 1: standpoint and really hadn't really been done in that way before. 928 00:51:35,116 --> 00:51:37,636 Speaker 1: And so a lot of it I was figuring out 929 00:51:37,676 --> 00:51:39,996 Speaker 1: as much as that anyone else was figuring it out. 930 00:51:40,476 --> 00:51:42,236 Speaker 1: But I think for the first kind of year or 931 00:51:42,236 --> 00:51:43,876 Speaker 1: so of touring, a year and a half of touring, 932 00:51:43,916 --> 00:51:46,836 Speaker 1: I was I was just learning how to play music 933 00:51:46,916 --> 00:51:50,556 Speaker 1: on stage and feel comfortable and be cool with the 934 00:51:50,556 --> 00:51:52,276 Speaker 1: fact that there was an audience there that was listening 935 00:51:52,276 --> 00:51:54,316 Speaker 1: in and a part of it. And you know, I 936 00:51:54,356 --> 00:51:57,076 Speaker 1: wouldn't say I was I was, you know, hugely nervous 937 00:51:57,116 --> 00:51:59,116 Speaker 1: or anything, But I would just say I hadn't figured 938 00:51:59,116 --> 00:52:02,556 Speaker 1: out how to really enjoy and be comfortable in a 939 00:52:02,596 --> 00:52:06,316 Speaker 1: situation where I'm under that kind of pressure. And and now, 940 00:52:06,516 --> 00:52:08,116 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm more at home on stage than I 941 00:52:08,116 --> 00:52:10,636 Speaker 1: am in many other areas of my life. It's like 942 00:52:10,676 --> 00:52:12,636 Speaker 1: I'm like a fish and water on stage. And I 943 00:52:12,676 --> 00:52:15,676 Speaker 1: think I've just I've learned how to not only kind 944 00:52:15,716 --> 00:52:19,116 Speaker 1: of survive and cope under pressure, but just alchymize it 945 00:52:19,156 --> 00:52:22,756 Speaker 1: in to the optimum comfort and creativity, and I think 946 00:52:22,796 --> 00:52:25,116 Speaker 1: that it takes time to do that. And I don't 947 00:52:25,116 --> 00:52:27,076 Speaker 1: think you can just spring out of the box straight 948 00:52:27,076 --> 00:52:30,276 Speaker 1: from YouTube or Instagram onto the stage and you know 949 00:52:30,316 --> 00:52:32,876 Speaker 1: you're fully formed. But because I think that all the 950 00:52:32,956 --> 00:52:35,356 Speaker 1: nuances of how to build a build a performance like 951 00:52:35,396 --> 00:52:38,316 Speaker 1: that take time. I mean, I'm very very aware of 952 00:52:38,316 --> 00:52:40,436 Speaker 1: all the different elements of my show. For example, that 953 00:52:40,436 --> 00:52:43,036 Speaker 1: I've been touring this year. You know, we got as 954 00:52:43,036 --> 00:52:45,236 Speaker 1: I say, six musicians on stage playing all sorts of 955 00:52:45,276 --> 00:52:47,516 Speaker 1: different kinds of things, and you know, even down to 956 00:52:47,596 --> 00:52:50,316 Speaker 1: the set design and the lighting. You know, I've sat 957 00:52:50,356 --> 00:52:53,276 Speaker 1: with the lighting operator. His name is John John Rodgers, 958 00:52:53,356 --> 00:52:56,316 Speaker 1: and sat with him and crafted exactly the tone of 959 00:52:56,356 --> 00:52:59,476 Speaker 1: the green that is triggered when Christian the drummer plays 960 00:52:59,476 --> 00:53:02,916 Speaker 1: the snare sound, you know, and a green light. But 961 00:53:02,956 --> 00:53:04,996 Speaker 1: it's like is that dark green or medium green or 962 00:53:05,116 --> 00:53:07,116 Speaker 1: light green? And how much neon is in the green? 963 00:53:07,476 --> 00:53:09,716 Speaker 1: How many decimals of a second? And does it take 964 00:53:09,716 --> 00:53:12,396 Speaker 1: for that green to fade out just to go or 965 00:53:12,956 --> 00:53:15,916 Speaker 1: you know, and so all these kinds of forms, they're 966 00:53:15,956 --> 00:53:17,996 Speaker 1: all part of the music, they're all part of the expression, 967 00:53:18,636 --> 00:53:22,476 Speaker 1: and it sounds kind of cerebral when I say it 968 00:53:22,476 --> 00:53:25,356 Speaker 1: out loud, But actually it's just a natural extension of 969 00:53:25,676 --> 00:53:28,996 Speaker 1: a communication form that I've been familiar with just by 970 00:53:28,996 --> 00:53:31,316 Speaker 1: being a human and being watching the world and thinking. 971 00:53:31,476 --> 00:53:34,516 Speaker 1: But it's it's right for there to be a blackout 972 00:53:34,596 --> 00:53:36,676 Speaker 1: when this word is said, or it's right for the 973 00:53:36,716 --> 00:53:38,476 Speaker 1: lights to go from left to right rather than right 974 00:53:38,516 --> 00:53:41,236 Speaker 1: to left because the attention needs to be moved to 975 00:53:41,316 --> 00:53:44,356 Speaker 1: this musician or away from this thing, or and all 976 00:53:44,356 --> 00:53:47,476 Speaker 1: those degrees. I think that as a creator of shows, 977 00:53:47,756 --> 00:53:50,956 Speaker 1: I think I've I've developed and I'm developing more and 978 00:53:51,036 --> 00:53:53,276 Speaker 1: more skills that the more I do it, And I 979 00:53:53,276 --> 00:53:56,236 Speaker 1: think that that it's the same, same, same, same is 980 00:53:56,276 --> 00:53:57,876 Speaker 1: true for everyone. I think the same was true for 981 00:53:57,876 --> 00:54:00,316 Speaker 1: the One Man Show. I didn't really understand what I 982 00:54:00,356 --> 00:54:02,796 Speaker 1: was doing at that time, but I was learning so 983 00:54:02,836 --> 00:54:05,076 Speaker 1: fast and so much. And what a privilege to be 984 00:54:05,076 --> 00:54:09,076 Speaker 1: able to learn in the real world with with real people. 985 00:54:09,196 --> 00:54:11,716 Speaker 1: And this still boggles my mind to still now to 986 00:54:12,076 --> 00:54:14,796 Speaker 1: go to a city and turn up on a stage 987 00:54:14,796 --> 00:54:17,796 Speaker 1: and and there's two thousand people who somehow they found 988 00:54:17,796 --> 00:54:20,676 Speaker 1: my songs. It's just crazy feeling. I mean, it's just 989 00:54:20,956 --> 00:54:23,716 Speaker 1: it never gets old. I never walk out there. Well, 990 00:54:23,716 --> 00:54:25,676 Speaker 1: of course there were people here. You know. It's why 991 00:54:25,676 --> 00:54:27,676 Speaker 1: would why would people know myself? Why would they know 992 00:54:27,756 --> 00:54:30,596 Speaker 1: my songs? You know. It's just it's an astonishing thing 993 00:54:30,676 --> 00:54:35,476 Speaker 1: and something I take very seriously as someone who kind 994 00:54:35,516 --> 00:54:38,876 Speaker 1: of builds experiences and shares things with the world in 995 00:54:38,996 --> 00:54:41,356 Speaker 1: terms of I want to communicate the best I could 996 00:54:41,436 --> 00:54:46,876 Speaker 1: possibly possibly communicate about how I feel as a human, 997 00:54:46,876 --> 00:54:49,676 Speaker 1: because that's my duty as an artist. I must explain 998 00:54:49,796 --> 00:54:52,356 Speaker 1: the world as I see it, because if people are 999 00:54:52,396 --> 00:54:54,676 Speaker 1: turning up, I mean, what a privilege to be in 1000 00:54:54,676 --> 00:54:57,036 Speaker 1: that position. And I say I take it seriously with 1001 00:54:57,116 --> 00:55:00,476 Speaker 1: the lightest possible touch, you know, because you could say 1002 00:55:00,476 --> 00:55:02,756 Speaker 1: life is very serious, but it's also to be taken 1003 00:55:02,876 --> 00:55:04,996 Speaker 1: very lightly, and I think the same is true with music. 1004 00:55:08,436 --> 00:55:11,036 Speaker 1: Makes it Jacob Callier again for sitting down to talk 1005 00:55:11,036 --> 00:55:14,076 Speaker 1: to us about his career and about his process and 1006 00:55:14,196 --> 00:55:18,436 Speaker 1: about some insane musical theory. You can hear piano ballads 1007 00:55:18,556 --> 00:55:20,836 Speaker 1: and all of our favorite Jacob call Your songs on 1008 00:55:20,876 --> 00:55:24,676 Speaker 1: a playlist at Broken Record podcast dot com. Be sure 1009 00:55:24,676 --> 00:55:27,556 Speaker 1: to subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com 1010 00:55:27,596 --> 00:55:30,636 Speaker 1: slash Broken Record Podcast, where can find all of our 1011 00:55:30,716 --> 00:55:34,476 Speaker 1: new episodes You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. 1012 00:55:35,316 --> 00:55:38,756 Speaker 1: Broken Record is produced with help can Lea Rose, Jason Gambrell, 1013 00:55:39,116 --> 00:55:44,356 Speaker 1: Ben Holiday, Eric Sandler, Jennifer Sanchez. Our editor Sophie Crane. 1014 00:55:44,476 --> 00:55:48,716 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Neil Reibell. Broken Record is a 1015 00:55:48,716 --> 00:55:52,236 Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and 1016 00:55:52,316 --> 00:55:56,876 Speaker 1: others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus 1017 00:55:56,956 --> 00:56:00,676 Speaker 1: is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and uninterrupted 1018 00:56:00,676 --> 00:56:03,916 Speaker 1: ad free listening for four ninety nine a month. Look 1019 00:56:03,956 --> 00:56:07,836 Speaker 1: for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions, and if you 1020 00:56:07,876 --> 00:56:10,356 Speaker 1: like our show, please remember to share, rate, and review 1021 00:56:10,476 --> 00:56:13,436 Speaker 1: us on your podcast. That app O theme musics by 1022 00:56:13,476 --> 00:56:15,636 Speaker 1: Kenny Beats on Justin Richmond