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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if you've had

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Speaker 1: an experience with manipulation or abuse of power, you'd like

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Speaker 1: to share shet.

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Speaker 2: Us an email at trust Me pod at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust Me, trust Me.

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Speaker 4: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 3: I've never lied to you. Do you think that one

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Speaker 3: person has all the answers?

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Speaker 4: Don't?

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Speaker 1: Welcome to trust Me The podcast about cults, extreme belief

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Speaker 1: in the abusive power from two growers, not show ers,

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Speaker 1: you've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 5: I'm Lola Bloc.

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Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth, and today our guest is

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Speaker 1: doctor Richard Tedesky, Professor of psychology at UNC Charlotte and

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Speaker 1: pioneer of the concept of post traumatic growth or positive

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Speaker 1: transformation after trauma.

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Speaker 5: So exciting. I love this episode.

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Speaker 1: We're going to dive into post traumatic growth, it's different forms,

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Speaker 1: and why it's different from resilience, his definition of trauma,

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Speaker 1: and how the disruption of our core beliefs plays a role,

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Speaker 1: and how shifting focus after trauma to what your life

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Speaker 1: can be now can change everything.

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Speaker 2: And we're going to talk about the importance of finding

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Speaker 2: what he calls an expert companion, what integration of our

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Speaker 2: trauma means and now having a mission and telling our

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Speaker 2: story can.

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Speaker 3: Help us here. That's right, guys, couldn't agree more.

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Speaker 1: I think after we have this conversation, Megan, you said

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Speaker 1: this was like one of the best yes conversations that

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Speaker 1: you've had throughout the podcast. I'm intrigued man, about the

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Speaker 1: idea of a growth.

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Speaker 2: We've heard it all the time, right, your pain makes

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Speaker 2: you grow, it brings you power, blah blah.

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Speaker 3: But I got it in a new way.

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Speaker 2: Where it's just like, oh, so hopefully he'll get that

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Speaker 2: to you guys too.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, not to hype it up too much, but it's amazing.

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Speaker 1: Before we dive in with him, Megan, what's your cultiest thing.

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Speaker 2: I have just been the cultiest, most delicious weekend and

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Speaker 2: Joshua Tree doing a.

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Speaker 3: Workshop with some girls.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of a pussy power type of a workshop

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Speaker 2: and such amazing growth and healing. And we were talking

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Speaker 2: on the.

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Speaker 3: Way home, like, if that was a cult, would you

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Speaker 3: join it?

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Speaker 2: You know, if she started telling you you have to

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Speaker 2: do this or it just reminded me what we always

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Speaker 2: come back to, which is that everything technically can be

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Speaker 2: a cull. Everything technically is a cult, relationships, all of it.

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Speaker 2: You just have to have a lot of different interests

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Speaker 2: and a lot of different people that are able to

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Speaker 2: interact with your critical thinking.

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Speaker 3: Otherwise you're isolated. And then even this beautiful priestess who's

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Speaker 3: like so.

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Speaker 2: Healing could turn bad, not even by any menace of

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Speaker 2: her own.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I was talking to a girl and she's like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I was raising a cult too. It was like this

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Speaker 2: goddess priestess cult. And I was like, oh, that actually

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Speaker 2: sounds nice, and she was like, yeah, it was nice,

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Speaker 2: except for the fact that they believe you're a pussy

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Speaker 2: is your power, so you should start having sex when

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Speaker 2: you're twelve with the men.

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Speaker 3: They pick for you.

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Speaker 5: Oh my goodness.

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Speaker 3: You know, everything can turn bad.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely everything can turn bad. Actually, even this week I

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Speaker 1: saw some posts from one of our more recent guests

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Speaker 1: and some comments apparently there's an organization that was specifically

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Speaker 1: developed to help cult survivors that even that organization is

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Speaker 1: getting critiqued now and people are leaving and saying they're

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Speaker 1: not organizationally or structurally healthy, which is just so interesting

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Speaker 1: because a group it's unreal. Yeah, I mean, I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying it's a freaking cult or whatever. But it is

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Speaker 1: so difficult to have a healthy, hierarchical group, Like it's

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Speaker 1: just really hard.

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Speaker 2: So this woman is super cool and doesn't act like

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Speaker 2: a teacher or a master or anything.

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Speaker 3: And it works.

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Speaker 5: What was she doing?

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Speaker 2: I mean it's funny because I think with each group

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Speaker 2: of people it's completely different. Our first day there, we

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Speaker 2: were all kind of like, eh, so we did what

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Speaker 2: did we do the first day?

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Speaker 3: You know?

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Speaker 2: We wrote letters to our pussy r pussy's wrote letters

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Speaker 2: back to us.

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Speaker 5: But what did they say to you?

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Speaker 3: Wouldn't you like to know? That's between me and her?

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Speaker 3: What about you? I feel like I can't not mention

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Speaker 3: and the Roe v.

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Speaker 5: Wade thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just the most theocratic shit. It would be

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Speaker 1: one thing if it was like there was a new

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Speaker 1: study released about how consciousness actually begins at.

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Speaker 3: Three months or whatever. That's not a thing.

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Speaker 1: This is strictly based on the personal beliefs of the

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court justices that are making this decision.

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Speaker 5: So if anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about.

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Speaker 4: Roe v.

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Speaker 1: Wade was a pivotal moment in American politics when it

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Speaker 1: was determined that it was legal for women to have abortions.

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Speaker 1: This does not mean some people present it that liberals

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Speaker 1: be going around murdering babies.

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Speaker 5: At eight nine months. That's not a thing.

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Speaker 1: It just means that, like, if it's necessary, if it's

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Speaker 1: up to the woman to make that choice.

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Speaker 3: It's up to her and her doctor. That was supposed

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Speaker 3: to be settled law.

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Speaker 1: Multiple justices who are now on the Supreme Court who

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Speaker 1: were interviewed about it said it was settled law, and

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Speaker 1: it was established precedent, and they weren't like gunning to

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Speaker 1: overturn it.

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Speaker 5: Guess what they they are.

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Speaker 1: That's why so many of us were afraid of Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump becoming president, because we knew that this would fucking happen,

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Speaker 1: and it is happening, and it's terrifying. It's not terrifying

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Speaker 1: for me personally because I live in California, but it's

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Speaker 1: terrifying for women who live in Texas, for example, like

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Speaker 1: the woman who just got put into prison for on

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Speaker 1: a murder charge because she gave herself a freaking abortion. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: there's so many stories I've been seeing circulating about, like

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Speaker 1: women who would have died if had they not had

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Speaker 1: their abortions, women who are mothers now but weren't able

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Speaker 1: to be before, and like, couldn't be mothers today if

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Speaker 1: they didn't have their the abortion that was necessary for

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Speaker 1: their safety before. There are states that want to outlawed

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Speaker 1: even in the case of the safety of them mother,

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Speaker 1: even in the case of rape and incests, Like it's

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Speaker 1: just so clearly about their own personal ideas. Which is

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Speaker 1: a religion running the country. That is religion running the country,

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Speaker 1: and that is terrifying because it's not about murder at

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Speaker 1: that point.

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Speaker 3: Were if you really cared about the health and safety

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Speaker 3: of people.

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Speaker 1: We've all made this point before, but like you would

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Speaker 1: consider the health and safety of the mother and also

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Speaker 1: so the health and safety of the babies once they

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Speaker 1: become actual children.

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Speaker 3: Obviously, abortions are not pleasant.

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Speaker 1: People aren't running around being like I want to have

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Speaker 1: an abortion.

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Speaker 2: I didn't like when Lena Dune them tweeted like I

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Speaker 2: wish I would have gotten one, just so.

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Speaker 3: I get like, that's so stupid. Yeah, it's a big deal.

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Speaker 3: It's a big fucking deal.

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Speaker 1: If you're going to force mothers to carry children to adoption,

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Speaker 1: then you better be forcing the fathers to be financially

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Speaker 1: responsible for that child for the rest of their life,

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Speaker 1: which they fucking don't like.

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Speaker 3: Good luck with that.

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Speaker 4: Good luck.

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Speaker 1: Also the thing that also really sticks in my craw

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Speaker 1: the Republican Party was not strongly associated with this idea

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Speaker 1: of abortion being like one of the primary issues. That's

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Speaker 1: not a thing that just historically that was not the case.

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Speaker 1: It was specifically a Catholic thing. It was not an

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Speaker 1: evangelical thing overall. And then there was one fucking guy,

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Speaker 1: I think it was in the seventies, maybe the eighties,

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Speaker 1: who was looking for ways to appeal to more voters.

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Speaker 5: And after Roe v.

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Speaker 1: Wade, there was some sentiment about how women were having

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Speaker 1: too much sex and not staying in the home, and

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Speaker 1: that made evangelicals uncomfortable.

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Speaker 5: So they took that sentiment.

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Speaker 1: They had been looking for issues, actively looking for issues

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Speaker 1: that would get more evangelical voters to come to the

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Speaker 1: Republican Party. This was the one that happened to resonate,

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Speaker 1: and so they fixated on it, and they made it

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Speaker 1: a thing, and they pushed it. And so I just

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Speaker 1: keep coming back to why do you believe.

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Speaker 5: What you believe? Why do you believe what you believe?

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Speaker 1: Because I also used to believe that abortion was always

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Speaker 1: wrong and it was murder or whatever. And then I

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Speaker 1: was like, Oh, I'm getting that belief from my religion

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Speaker 1: and not from my actual own critical thinking skills of

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Speaker 1: what that actually means, what the consequences actually are. When

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Speaker 1: abortion is illegal, women still have abortions, but they're more dangerous,

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Speaker 1: more women die.

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Speaker 5: That's just how it works.

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Speaker 1: If you actually want women to stop having abortions, then

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Speaker 1: they should a be legal, but also birth control, focus

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Speaker 1: on birth control, focus on sex education. Many of these

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Speaker 1: states are also trying to fucking outlaw birth control. So

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Speaker 1: at that point, it is not about murdering a baby.

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Speaker 1: At that point, is one.

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Speaker 3: It's clearly about you do not.

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Speaker 1: Like women having sex outside of marriage. You do not

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Speaker 1: like women having sex that is not for like for

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Speaker 1: the purpose of conceiving a baby, which in my opinion,

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Speaker 1: is entirely about control and has nothing to do with

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Speaker 1: your feelings about the safety of babies. Can we stop

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Speaker 1: pretending it is about the safety of babies. I don't

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Speaker 1: want women to have abortions either, but if they have to,

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Speaker 1: they need to be able to do that if it

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Speaker 1: is the thing that's going to save their life and

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Speaker 1: not fuck everything up for both them and the child.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it also scares me a lot because.

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Speaker 1: The consequences of this decision could reach far beyond abortion

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Speaker 1: and health care for women. There are so many other

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Speaker 1: things that could reverberate from this decision, and it is terrifying.

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Speaker 1: Religion should not have a place in our government. That

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Speaker 1: is what our country was founded on. Literally, that is

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Speaker 1: the point. Ye, and look what's happening. I'm scared, Okay,

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Speaker 1: and brand uh, I get it. Listen if I'm alienating

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Speaker 1: any listeners, have a conversation with me about it.

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Speaker 3: But it's not black and white. That's the problem.

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Speaker 1: It's they're like, if you actually listen to women, there's

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Speaker 1: so many stories about why it's a horrible experience. They

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Speaker 1: didn't want to do it, they had to do it anyway.

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Speaker 1: Now back to post traumatic growth.

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, this episode is so good.

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Speaker 2: We'll start this interview so you won't be mad at

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Speaker 2: us and give us five stars.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, five stars, holy five stars?

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Speaker 3: Trust me? Is Brett. Welcome, doctor Richard Tedesky to the show.

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Speaker 4: Thank you very much, glad to be here, so.

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Speaker 1: Excited to talk to you today. My mom loves your work.

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Speaker 1: My mom is a media psychology PhD. And she was

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Speaker 1: like fangirling out about the fact that we're having you

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Speaker 1: on our podcast.

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Speaker 5: So I'm really excited to have you on.

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Speaker 1: So you're a professor of psychology, licensed psychologists for over

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Speaker 1: thirty five years, and you helped originate the concept of

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Speaker 1: post traumatic growth.

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Speaker 5: Did I get that right?

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Speaker 4: That's right, Yes, you've got it.

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Speaker 1: Well, I guess first I want to ask what made

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Speaker 1: you want to study post traumatic growth?

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Speaker 5: Like, what made you interested in that?

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Speaker 4: Well? I guess I was interested in as a psychologist

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Speaker 4: a long time ago, and what makes people do well

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Speaker 4: in life and what makes people overcome obstacles. And I

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Speaker 4: was working in the field of trauma to some degree,

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Speaker 4: but all the work on trauma is generally oriented towards

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Speaker 4: how people are damaged. I thought there was room for

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Speaker 4: looking at the remarkable aspects of people's stories that I

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Speaker 4: was hearing about and going more deeply into that part

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Speaker 4: of things.

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Speaker 1: Well, first of all, can you define post traumatic growth

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Speaker 1: for us and explain why it's different from resilience?

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Speaker 4: Sure, post traumatic growth is the change that people often

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Speaker 4: report in the aftermath of traumatic events, through a struggle

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Speaker 4: that they go through to re understand how they are

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Speaker 4: to live life. Now that what they understood about living

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Speaker 4: life has been.

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Speaker 3: Disrupted, So it's kind of like a dark night of

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Speaker 3: the soul.

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Speaker 4: Certainly people have to go through a struggle. That's something

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Speaker 4: that we emphasize in our work that it's not an

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Speaker 4: easy thing for people, and that's what distinguishes it from

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Speaker 4: resilience in a way, because when people are resilient, that

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Speaker 4: means that they are not greatly impacted by an event,

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Speaker 4: that they have the ability to either resist it or

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Speaker 4: bounce back from it easily. Postraumatic growth comes after as

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Speaker 4: you're intimating some really difficult consideration of what has happened,

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Speaker 4: what life is about now, how to reconstruct in some

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Speaker 4: way that makes sense. So that can take a lot

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Speaker 4: of struggle on the part of a person.

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Speaker 1: We just did an episode on resilience, and this is

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Speaker 1: such a great thing to be talking about. After that,

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Speaker 1: we discussed how some people aren't actually impacted by potentially

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Speaker 1: traumatic events. Some people are able to bounce back pretty quickly.

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Speaker 1: But now we want to dive into Okay, so what

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Speaker 1: happens if you do have trauma, If you experience something

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Speaker 1: and it did greatly impact your life, are you destined

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Speaker 1: to be facing the struggle forever? And are you going

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Speaker 1: to just have PTSD for the rest of your life,

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Speaker 1: because I think we talk trauma right now in this

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Speaker 1: way that makes it sound like it's permanent and there's

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Speaker 1: no recovery trajectory, and your work is all about the

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Speaker 1: recovery trajectory or like the ways that our lives can

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Speaker 1: become better afterward, which is so awesome. So can you

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Speaker 1: talk to us a little bit about what some of

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Speaker 1: the positive things that can happen to us after trauma

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Speaker 1: are Well.

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Speaker 4: Well, first, let me say that you've kind of outlined

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Speaker 4: what has now traditionally been the understanding of trauma that

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Speaker 4: either people are resilient to trauma or they're damaged trauma

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Speaker 4: and they're just live lives of desperation as a result.

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Speaker 4: So instead, we're talking about changes that can happen that

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Speaker 4: allow people to see that in the aftermath of all

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Speaker 4: this they have found some benefit or value, not that

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Speaker 4: the trauma itself has been a good thing, but they've

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Speaker 4: figured out something about living life as a result of

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Speaker 4: having to go through this. We've found that when we

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Speaker 4: have done our research on this, that people tend to

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Speaker 4: report five different versions of this post traumatic growth and

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Speaker 4: people can sometimes tell us that there's one version of

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Speaker 4: it that's most important to them. Other's some combination of them.

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Speaker 4: But one version is they recognize that they may appreciate

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Speaker 4: life more, that they have more gratitude for things that

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Speaker 4: they might have taken for granted before. Another area is

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Speaker 4: they recognize their own personal strength. They have been able

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Speaker 4: to get through something terrible in a way, which indicates

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Speaker 4: that they have some strength or that they've been strengthened

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Speaker 4: because they've learned how to go through what they've encountered

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Speaker 4: in life. A third is something that we've called new possibilities,

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Speaker 4: and that's when people veer off on a new path

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Speaker 4: in life because the events that they've encountered have sort

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Speaker 4: of forced that on them in some way where they

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Speaker 4: had to find something else as a priority, something else

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Speaker 4: to do, or something that they used to do no

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Speaker 4: longer seems possible or important, so they strike out into

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Speaker 4: new areas of living life, some opportunities that they think

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Speaker 4: they might not have explored or not been able to

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Speaker 4: see in prior times.

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Speaker 2: That feels like something that's common with people who are

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Speaker 2: faced with death.

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Speaker 5: Like someone else dyeing megan, or you mean, their own death.

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Speaker 2: Like themselves like they if somebody who's given a terminal

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Speaker 2: illness diagnosis. I feel like a lot of times a

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Speaker 2: little bit I wrote a book, and I parachuted, and

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Speaker 2: I did this and that.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, it's just kind.

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Speaker 5: Of like a new lease on life.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Well, a.

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Speaker 4: Lot of people talk about post traumatic growth as their

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Speaker 4: second life. You know, they've recognized that they've got another

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Speaker 4: chance to maybe do things better and wright and more

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Speaker 4: more importantly or something like that. Another is changed in

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Speaker 4: relationships with other people. This is where people become maybe

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Speaker 4: more empathic or more compassionate, or are able to be

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Speaker 4: more open emotionally with other people. Often this happens because

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Speaker 4: you are in a position where you know you really

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Speaker 4: need to tell your story or you need to talk

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Speaker 4: to other people about your suffering, and that brings you

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Speaker 4: closer to people, or maybe you're lucky enough to have

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Speaker 4: people who are responsive to you or care enough to

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Speaker 4: support you, and you learn about the support that maybe

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Speaker 4: you didn't realize you had. So that's another area. And

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Speaker 4: then the final one spiritual and existential change. And this

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Speaker 4: is where people look at some of the deeper concerns

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Speaker 4: with living life well, how to live with meaning and purpose,

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Speaker 4: trying to address the question of what am I supposed

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Speaker 4: to do with my life here? What's the point of it?

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Speaker 4: And that can yield some exploration of spiritual ideas, some

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Speaker 4: change in religious beliefs, but we're generally an exploration of

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Speaker 4: the kind of enduring questions that people have had for centuries,

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Speaker 4: for the millennia about what it means to be human

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Speaker 4: and how to live.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's like you get shattered into a million pieces,

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Speaker 1: but then once you put them back together, you kind

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Speaker 1: of realize all these other ways that.

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Speaker 5: You can reconstruct yourself.

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Speaker 1: You don't have to be the same person or live

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Speaker 1: the same life that you had before.

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Speaker 3: It's like a reframe too. That's what's so cool about it.

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Speaker 2: It's like a narrative reframe of expecting something good to happen.

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Speaker 4: It's almost like people learn some lessons in a very

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Speaker 4: visceral way in their gut, in their heart, in their

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Speaker 4: bones that they might have understood intellectually before. You know,

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Speaker 4: we all know sort of intellectually being close to other

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Speaker 4: people and having close relationships is a good thing or someone.

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Speaker 4: I mean, that's sort of common knowledge, but living it

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Speaker 4: out in a way where it's central to you and

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Speaker 4: crucial to your own survival in the aftermath of suffering

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Speaker 4: or during suffering. It's a different kind of learning. It's

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Speaker 4: a different kind of understanding of that people have told

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Speaker 4: me on various occasions. You know, I knew this before,

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Speaker 4: but now I know in a different way, a way

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Speaker 4: where I can't go back to how I used to be.

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Speaker 4: I just can't think that old way anymore. It's just

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Speaker 4: I've just gone through this transformation where the old ways

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Speaker 4: of understanding things and doing things just don't make sense

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Speaker 4: to me anymore.

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Speaker 1: I always knew that your thoughts are fleeting and your

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Speaker 1: thoughts don't matter, But it wasn't until like this whole

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Speaker 1: like journey that we've talked about on the podcast a lot.

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Speaker 1: But this whole journey I had where I like had

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Speaker 1: a panic attack and then realized I have OCD, And

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Speaker 1: it was this really horrible time in my life that

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Speaker 1: I like had to actually do the work and understand

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Speaker 1: my thoughts and like learn the same things that I

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Speaker 1: technically knew before, but I know it in such a

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Speaker 1: different way now and like such a deeper level.

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Speaker 5: Like I've tried explaining it. Yeah, I've tried explaining it.

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Speaker 1: To my friends and they're like, you always knew that,

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, yeah, but it's different now I'm telling.

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Speaker 2: You you're like I was just saying it.

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Speaker 4: It's under a different type of understanding, more than just

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Speaker 4: giving lip service to things.

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Speaker 1: So I want to ask you in your research, is

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Speaker 1: there like any particular kind of trauma this applies to,

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Speaker 1: or is it like kind of everything across the board.

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Speaker 4: Well, this brings up the question of what a trauma is.

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Speaker 4: There are a lot of people who have tried to

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Speaker 4: define traumas as certain kinds of events. I've learned that

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Speaker 4: that's not a very good path to go down, because

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Speaker 4: for any individual person, certain kind of events may be

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Speaker 4: more or less traumatic. So I think that you know,

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Speaker 4: at the very beginning you talked about potentially traumatic events.

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Speaker 4: I think you said something about that that's a better

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Speaker 4: way of thinking about this, that events can potentially be traumatic,

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Speaker 4: and it depends on how they have an impact on

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Speaker 4: an individual person. The impact that defines things as traumatic

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Speaker 4: has to do with the degree to which there's a

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Speaker 4: shattering of the core belief system, the system that all

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Speaker 4: of us use to understand ourselves in our lives and

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Speaker 4: our world. In any event that brings those understandings into

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Speaker 4: questions creates a lot of anxiety. Like you now, it's

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Speaker 4: like I don't know what's going on. I don't know

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Speaker 4: what to believe. Nothing makes sense to me. So events

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Speaker 4: that create that kind of disruption and the core beliefs,

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Speaker 4: those are traumatic events. That's how we can define trauma.

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Speaker 4: And the core beliefs have to do with things like

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Speaker 4: what kind of person am I, what kind of life

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Speaker 4: path am I on, or what kind of people that

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Speaker 4: have around me? How safe I am, how vulnerable I am.

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Speaker 2: I was listening to a podcast You Dead, where you

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Speaker 2: were talking about how somebody had I believe it was

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Speaker 2: terminal cancer, and he was like, yeah, it sucks I'm dying,

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Speaker 2: but I always knew I was going to die. What

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Speaker 2: really sucks right now is that my wife left me. Like,

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Speaker 2: that's what's traumatic to me. So it is such an

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Speaker 2: individual process of Yeah, you might think that somebody's dying

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Speaker 2: is what's affecting them, but it's something else entirely that's traumatizing.

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Speaker 4: That's right. You really have to know the individual.

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Speaker 1: I was just talking to Megan about this, like last week.

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Speaker 1: You know, I've like witnessed in a like physical attacks

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Speaker 1: on loved ones when I was a child. I've experienced

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Speaker 1: sexual assault myself. I've been through things that like technically

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Speaker 1: should be traumatic, But the most traumatizing thing in my

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Speaker 1: whole life was like my panic attack.

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Speaker 5: Like that by.

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Speaker 1: Far shook the core of like how I viewed myself

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Speaker 1: and my mind and my control over my personhood more

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Speaker 1: than any of those other events that like should technically

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Speaker 1: be traumatic.

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Speaker 3: Do you think, like, what's the positive growth you think

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Speaker 3: you've had from it?

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Speaker 5: Oh, that's a good question. I mean, I feel like

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Speaker 5: that's an end question, but I'll answer it now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I have a much stronger sense of my own

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Speaker 1: autonomy now, which is funny because what it was was

440
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Speaker 1: feeling out of control. But now I've learned how to

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Speaker 1: feel in control when I feel out of control.

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Speaker 5: Uh huh.

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Speaker 1: I do feel like I am able to more deeply

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Speaker 1: connect with people and relate to people on a certain

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Speaker 1: level when it comes to mental health stuff in particular,

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Speaker 1: because that's not something that I really ever struggled with before.

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Speaker 1: So I feel like I can connect with people this

448
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,040
Speaker 1: new ways so cool. My thinking is so much healthier

449
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:06,040
Speaker 1: now because before I like understood what was happening. I

450
00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:07,800
Speaker 1: was in this pattern and I just didn't know what

451
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,040
Speaker 1: was happening where I would ruminate and ruminate and ruminate.

452
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,320
Speaker 1: And now I like can actually recognize that I'm doing that,

453
00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,520
Speaker 1: and I've constructed like a new way of life thanks

454
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:17,720
Speaker 1: to you know, some excellent therapists.

455
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:19,040
Speaker 3: Totally.

456
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,199
Speaker 4: You know, I want to make a comment on what

457
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:24,640
Speaker 4: you just said when you said feeling more in control

458
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,560
Speaker 4: when you're out of control and you were chuckling about that,

459
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,919
Speaker 4: because it sounds so weird, right, yeah, how could that be?

460
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,160
Speaker 4: But it's interesting to me when I hear you say

461
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:37,760
Speaker 4: that because that's a paradox, and so much of the

462
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,800
Speaker 4: work I've been doing in this area post traumatic growth

463
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,480
Speaker 4: requires us to think paradoxically about things. You know. The

464
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:48,800
Speaker 4: basic paradox is that out of suffering and trauma comes

465
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,920
Speaker 4: something worthwhile or beneficial, and that's kind of a paradox, right,

466
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,080
Speaker 4: And then you're talking about another paradox, which is that

467
00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:01,080
Speaker 4: people often come to understand that that happened to them,

468
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:05,640
Speaker 4: even though they're terrible in a way, can yield some

469
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:11,080
Speaker 4: kind of understanding or knowledge or enlightenment that's worthwhile and valuable.

470
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,640
Speaker 4: So that's kind of paradoxical. And the basic paradox you're

471
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,200
Speaker 4: talking about is, you know, something that people often learn

472
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,480
Speaker 4: is I'm not in control of so much in life.

473
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:28,280
Speaker 4: But if I somehow figure that out, I paradoxically end

474
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,880
Speaker 4: up feeling more in control of my own life when

475
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,840
Speaker 4: I accept the idea that I'm not right, because.

476
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,080
Speaker 1: I can control how I respond to all the other

477
00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:38,520
Speaker 1: things that I cannot control.

478
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:39,080
Speaker 4: Yeah.

479
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:40,640
Speaker 5: So let's say one of.

480
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,159
Speaker 1: Our listeners, for example, has experienced some kind of trauma.

481
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 1: Maybe they have been in an abusive relationship or been

482
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,440
Speaker 1: in a cultic relationship, and they're trying to figure it out.

483
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:51,240
Speaker 3: Maybe one of them has been in a cult.

484
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they're not feeling like they've gotten to a

485
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 1: point of post traumatic growth yet and they're still maybe

486
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,680
Speaker 1: stuck in the negative parts of the trauma. Are there

487
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,439
Speaker 1: ways that we can like proactively seek out that growth

488
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:06,520
Speaker 1: or is it something that kind of happens organically.

489
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,119
Speaker 4: Well, let me take that apart a little bit. So

490
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,200
Speaker 4: one thing is postmat growth is not a destination. It's

491
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 4: not like you arrive there someday you wake up and say, man,

492
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,240
Speaker 4: you know I've made it here. I am postmac growth,

493
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:18,640
Speaker 4: got it.

494
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:20,960
Speaker 3: Post traumatic growth island.

495
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:25,960
Speaker 4: That's right, right. It's a way of experiencing and living life.

496
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 4: And so for most people it sort of develops over time.

497
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:35,159
Speaker 4: It's a gradual process. That's an important part of understanding

498
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 4: this that you kind of chip away at these things

499
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,920
Speaker 4: and you learn and you approach this over time. Now

500
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:45,160
Speaker 4: for some people, there are these moments where you sort

501
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 4: of say, aha, it's like, oh, now I understand this

502
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,360
Speaker 4: bear than I did before. Maybe someone listening to your

503
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,919
Speaker 4: podcast is going to come away from our discussion and say, ah,

504
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 4: now I understand something they didn't understand. Maybe that'll be helpful. Okay, Yeah.

505
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 4: One way that's important in order to encourage people on

506
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,119
Speaker 4: the journey of post traumatic growth is for them to

507
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 4: know that it's possible for us to label it, to

508
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 4: name it, to describe it. So people have a sense

509
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,439
Speaker 4: of what's possible for them and may be able to

510
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 4: articulate what's happening to them. Because I've had many people

511
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 4: write to me and they say, you know, until I

512
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,399
Speaker 4: read what you've written or heard what you said, I

513
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 4: was really unclear what was going on with me. I

514
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 4: knew it was something, but I didn't know what it

515
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,679
Speaker 4: was about. But it was so helpful to hear you

516
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:36,879
Speaker 4: describe it, because that's my experience. That's very fulfilling for

517
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 4: me and very satisfying when I hear people say that

518
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,160
Speaker 4: they've gotten something out of hearing about this. In terms

519
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,159
Speaker 4: of how do you move in that direction, there's a

520
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 4: couple of things. One is it's important to try to

521
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 4: find people that we call expert companions, people who will listen,

522
00:24:55,040 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 4: people who will appreciate your own capabilities, people who will

523
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,159
Speaker 4: be there with you for the journey because it takes

524
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:08,120
Speaker 4: a while. People recognize your possibilities and your strengths, all

525
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 4: that good stuff. You know. There's sometimes are people in

526
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 4: our lives that are just there like that and we

527
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,200
Speaker 4: know who they are. Other times, you know, we find

528
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,679
Speaker 4: them along the way and they're surprising. You know who

529
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 4: they turn out to be. So it's important to have

530
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 4: an expert companion so that you're not going through this

531
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 4: by yourself. And you know, myself and my colleague Brett

532
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,639
Speaker 4: Moore wrote a workbook, a postematic growth workbook, which is

533
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 4: a guide you know, that people can follow that we

534
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 4: hope help people along this journey, and it has a

535
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 4: lot of information and exercises they can do to try

536
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 4: to move in that direction. So there are certain prompts

537
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,239
Speaker 4: there that can help people think through this process and

538
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:48,440
Speaker 4: feel through this process.

539
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 3: Can you give us what a prompt would be well.

540
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,199
Speaker 4: So, for example, one of the things we do in

541
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:58,160
Speaker 4: there is we have people consider the sort of person

542
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 4: in their lives that might be an expert companion and

543
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 4: what characteristics a person like that might have. Or we

544
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 4: have a place in there where we have them evaluate

545
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 4: their core belief system and what they are thinking about

546
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 4: or what they don't understand about certain aspects of living.

547
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 4: Or we have places where people can start to create

548
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:19,679
Speaker 4: their own narrative of their lives. That's a very important

549
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 4: part of this process to see the story of your life,

550
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 4: which integrates the things that have been traumatic that you've

551
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,160
Speaker 4: suffered through, what you've learned from them, how they've changed

552
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 4: you in certain ways, start to understand in some coherent

553
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 4: way what your story is. So we have prompts about that.

554
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 4: So there's different ways that people can follow these guidelines

555
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 4: so they can move more in that direction of growth.

556
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 1: You use the word integrate, and I want to talk

557
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 1: about that because I feel like that comes up a

558
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 1: lot when discussing healing. From trauma. Even when I was

559
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,879
Speaker 1: doing EMDR with one of my therapy, it was all

560
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 1: about integrating the trauma.

561
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 5: So does what does that mean?

562
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 1: Does that mean just like figuring out how it makes

563
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: sense in your life story, so it's not this disruptive

564
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 1: thing that's over here and doesn't fit in, Like what

565
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 1: can you explain that?

566
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you've got the idea there. Living through

567
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 4: trauma is really unpleasant, anxiety, arousing, sad, scary, all those things,

568
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:33,400
Speaker 4: partly partly because it's hard to understand and figure out

569
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,199
Speaker 4: when something is so mysterious and it feels, like you

570
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 4: were saying before, it's something that you're not in control of,

571
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 4: you know, it's a lot worse. So the integration is

572
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 4: a way of organizing all these events and their meaning

573
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 4: for yourself so that you can see themes and patterns

574
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 4: and a direction of all of this, so it doesn't

575
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 4: seem like it just a chaotic mess. Instead, it seems

576
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 4: like something that has some organization to it, some coherence

577
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 4: or a theme to it. A good therapist helps you

578
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 4: with that, that's right. You know, in my therapy with people,

579
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 4: very often what I'm doing is helping organizing the pieces

580
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,479
Speaker 4: of this puzzle, you know, just like with a jigsaw puzzle.

581
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 4: You dumb them all, you know, the pieces out of

582
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 4: the box, and you start to organize them some way,

583
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 4: maybe the different colors or shapes or where the edges

584
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 4: are or something like that. And through that organization you

585
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 4: can start putting the pieces together and lo and behold.

586
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 4: After a while, it's showing you a picture. And this

587
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 4: process is kind of like that. You have to take

588
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 4: out the pieces, which is hard for people because that

589
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 4: means talking about things that are distressing. That's, you know,

590
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 4: dumping out the puzzle pieces, and then you have to

591
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 4: see how they fit together. And there's some kind of

592
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 4: organization to this. It's not just all random. And then

593
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 4: when you see the organization to it and the theme

594
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 4: and the pattern, life doesn't feel so crazy anymore. And

595
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 4: that's helpful.

596
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 3: Is this what you're saying?

597
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 2: This is the kind of story I want to live,

598
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 2: So I'm going to make sense of my life in

599
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 2: this way.

600
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 4: Well? Yeah, see, now if you understand this process of

601
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 4: post traumatic growth is possible, you might say that very

602
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 4: thing to yourself. You might say, you know what, I

603
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 4: want to figure out how to live a life that

604
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 4: is purposeful or meaningful or has this kind of story

605
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 4: to it, something I'm being proud of or whatever. I'm

606
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 4: not sure how or what's going to look like, but

607
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 4: I got the general concept that that's where I want

608
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 4: to go with this somehow. So that gets you started

609
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 4: when you see that that is possible.

610
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 1: It resonates with me so much when you are talking

611
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 1: about is making it not feel so crazy because I

612
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 1: think for me and for some of my friends who've

613
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,239
Speaker 1: had traumatic experiences too, the hardest part is like, what

614
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 1: is happening?

615
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 5: What is happening? Why is this happening?

616
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 1: And it feels chaotic, and it feels like you have

617
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 1: no again no control over the world and the universe

618
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 1: and yourself. And so just like breaking it apart has

619
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 1: been something that's been life changing for me. I'm like, Okay,

620
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 1: this is what I'm experiencing, this is why it's happening.

621
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 5: Organizing it is.

622
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, that just makes a lot of sense to me

623
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 1: because that was what was helpful for me.

624
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 2: Getting so mad at yourself too, you know, if you're

625
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 2: not feeling whatever, but then if you reframe it is,

626
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 2: oh I'm not I'm working out almost like I'm getting stronger.

627
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 3: Then that's a whole different period of time.

628
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: But you have to like being able to name what's

629
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 1: happening to you and like have a way of understanding

630
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 1: what happened to me. That was like the most important thing,

631
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 1: and I think for my mom that was the most

632
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: important thing too, because especially people who've been in cults,

633
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 1: they're like, I don't understand what's just happened to me.

634
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 5: You know, it feels chaotic.

635
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 4: And making sense of things is really important. I work

636
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 4: for an organization called Bouldercrest Foundation in Bluemont, Virginia, and

637
00:30:55,160 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 4: we serve their military veterans and first responders like firefighters, EMTs,

638
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 4: people have been through trauma mostly because of their work

639
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 4: and have trauma histories. So we have our program is

640
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 4: based on the postermat growth concept. One of the things

641
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 4: in our program that we emphasize is that we give

642
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 4: them message it's not what's wrong with you, it's what

643
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 4: happened to you. Because so many of these men and

644
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 4: women come to us with diagnoses of PTSD or something.

645
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 4: They've gotten lots of messages that they're broken and they're

646
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 4: damaged and there and they start to feel useless, and

647
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 4: we emphasize that you know, it's about the events that

648
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 4: you've gone through in your life and what it's done

649
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 4: to your way of understanding yourself, understanding the world around

650
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 4: you that you live in, and robbing you of a

651
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 4: future that feels like it's going to be purposeful and meaningful.

652
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 4: We especially find this with veterans coming out of their service,

653
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 4: don't know any longer what they're supposed to do with themselves,

654
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 4: and have perhaps seen and experienced some terrible things. We

655
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 4: have to help them see that there's a further purpose

656
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:08,959
Speaker 4: to life in a way that they can serve and

657
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 4: be useful so their lives continue in a direction where

658
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 4: there's an ongoing story of possibility for them. Another thing

659
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 4: that we emphasize with post traumatic growth, it's important for

660
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 4: people to have a mission. It's important for people to

661
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 4: have something to do that benefits other people, not just

662
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 4: makes them feel better or it takes care of some

663
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 4: symptoms they have, like nightmares or something. It goes beyond that.

664
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 4: You've got to have a reason for living that benefits

665
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 4: people out there in the world, whether it's your family

666
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 4: or your neighborhood, or your city, or your organization, or

667
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 4: your country or somebody beyond you. That's what's important because

668
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 4: otherwise the suffering you've gone through may feel like it's

669
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 4: just in vain.

670
00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 1: We've talked in other episodes about how it's it's not

671
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 1: always necessarily helpful to dwell on an event for too long,

672
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 1: to rehash it repeatedly, But this is an important distinction

673
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 1: because there are people who just end up getting stuck

674
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: in the like talking about the event, but then there

675
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 1: are all these other people who aren't talking about it

676
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 1: at all. But I want to talk about how disclosing

677
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 1: our story and like getting it out of our bodies

678
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 1: is actually like a crucial step in healing. And it's

679
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 1: because of that organization, right, It's because like you have

680
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 1: to name it in order to tame it or whatever.

681
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 4: Well, you know, when you talk about disclosing the story again,

682
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,479
Speaker 4: I'm talking about the broader story, not just one particular event.

683
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 5: Okay.

684
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 4: For example, there's a kind of therapy called exposure therapy.

685
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 4: Prolonged exposure is one where people retell some traumatic event

686
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 4: many many times in order to not be so sensitive

687
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 4: to it anymore and reduce anxiety of it. That misses

688
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 4: the point, though, the point we've talked about with integration

689
00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,479
Speaker 4: of these things, it's how you're going to live your

690
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 4: life as a whole, and who are you, you know,

691
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 4: in terms of the whole of your life, how you

692
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 4: grew up, what you learned growing up, what you learned

693
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 4: through the events you've been through, who you can be

694
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 4: in the future, you know, just the bigger picture of

695
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 4: all of this, not just you went through some terrible

696
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 4: event in itself, but that's a part of the overall

697
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 4: narrative that you have to come to terms with.

698
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,359
Speaker 1: So it's like, I had a happy childhood and then

699
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 1: my life was disrupted by this thing which made me

700
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,399
Speaker 1: behave in this other way, but then I was able

701
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 1: to achieve you know, Like it's basically like just fitting

702
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 1: it all in.

703
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 5: It's so interesting.

704
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 1: I wouldn't think that story would be so important for

705
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: our mental health, but it seems like it really is.

706
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:47,359
Speaker 4: Well it is because if you think about it, all

707
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:52,359
Speaker 4: of our memories, and all of our conversations and all

708
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 4: of our thoughts are stories. I mean, how often during

709
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 4: the day do you tell people a story? You recount

710
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 4: some event that happened to you, and the things you

711
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 4: remember are stories. It's always easier to remember anything that's

712
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 4: a story than just a bunch of facts. Right when

713
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 4: you want when you weave it all together in terms

714
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 4: of story. And you know, if you say to somebody,

715
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 4: let me tell you a story, immediately you have their attention.

716
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 4: They want to hear the story, right And Megan, for example,

717
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 4: you remember the story I told about that guy with

718
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 4: terminal cancer. I told that story and that's you remember that, right?

719
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:29,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll never forget it.

720
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 4: There you go. So human beings are just we're immersed

721
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 4: in stories. That's just the natural way that we think

722
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 4: and we remember.

723
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 1: So, speaking of stories, can you share any stories? I

724
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 1: mean obviously no specifics, but can you share an example

725
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:48,280
Speaker 1: of someone that you've treated, or researched or anything who's

726
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 1: experienced a good amount of post traumatic growth?

727
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 4: Well, my colleague at Bouldercrest, Brett Moore, who's a former

728
00:35:56,200 --> 00:36:00,799
Speaker 4: Armory psychologist. He and I wrote a book called Transformed

729
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,879
Speaker 4: by Trauma Stories of Post Traumatic Growth. What we did

730
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 4: there is we interviewed some people who were either military

731
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 4: service members or veterans, or family members like mothers or

732
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 4: spouses about their experiences with trauma and post traumatic growth

733
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,840
Speaker 4: so we could hear it in their words. Because I

734
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,839
Speaker 4: think that's really powerful to hear it from the point

735
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 4: of view of people who have been through these things.

736
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 4: So that's why we published that book a couple of

737
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 4: years ago, because we think that these stories are really important. So,

738
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 4: for example, there's one fellow who I know pretty well

739
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 4: and who was in the army for a long time,

740
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 4: and he was grievously wounded in battle, lost in eye

741
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 4: and use of one of his limbs was impaired, and

742
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:53,319
Speaker 4: he was really very wounded. And he had always been

743
00:36:53,360 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 4: a very athletic and strong guy, and he ended up

744
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 4: up in a wheelchair and partially blind and all this stuff,

745
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 4: and he was getting very, very depressed. But he had

746
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 4: a bunch of guys who used to climb do rock

747
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 4: climbing with climbing mountains and stuff, who finally came out

748
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 4: to him one day, loaded him up in a van

749
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,800
Speaker 4: with his wheelchair and every thing said we're going climbing,

750
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 4: and they took him out there, and it turned out

751
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 4: that that for him was really important because they said

752
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 4: to him, we're going to figure out some way to

753
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 4: help you climb again. So he ended up starting a

754
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 4: nonprofit that helps people with disabilities engage in outdoor activities.

755
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 4: This became part of his mission and it was based

756
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:54,839
Speaker 4: on what his friends did for him. He had expert companions,

757
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 4: people who knew him, believed in him and weren't going

758
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 4: to let him fail. And he needed that because as

759
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 4: powerful and strong a guy as he was, you know,

760
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 4: he was sinking and he needed someone else to help

761
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 4: him up, and they did and that started to point

762
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 4: him toward another kind of mission for him. So it's

763
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 4: that kind of thing that's so inspiring when you work

764
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 4: in this area with people, and when you work in

765
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 4: the area postraumatic growth rather than trauma. Okay, because if

766
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:30,839
Speaker 4: you just stick with trauma and don't include the growth part, right,

767
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:35,320
Speaker 4: that's when people start talking about being traumatized by the work.

768
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 4: You know, how can you work with all these people

769
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,359
Speaker 4: have gone through terrible suffering, isn't it horrible? And everything? Well,

770
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 4: it's never been that way for me, because I'm just

771
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 4: inspired by how amazing people are, right and because we

772
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 4: oriented people towards growth rather than just feeling like they

773
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,799
Speaker 4: got to somehow live through their symptoms and carry a

774
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 4: diagnosis for the rest of their lives and all the

775
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 4: rest of them.

776
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 2: I have a question, if you have trauma in your

777
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:11,800
Speaker 2: childhood that probably affected how you developed as a person.

778
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 3: How is that different?

779
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 4: Well, that's often a question I get asked because people

780
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 4: start to think, well, if right from the beginning, you

781
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:26,280
Speaker 4: develop a belief system that is just based on suffering

782
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,879
Speaker 4: and being abused or something like that, you know, how

783
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 4: is it possible for you to know anything else or

784
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,880
Speaker 4: learn anything different? And that's where expert companionship comes in.

785
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 4: That's where you start to see that somebody else that

786
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 4: believes in possibilities for you and can notice those things

787
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 4: can be so helpful.

788
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,359
Speaker 2: They're almost like regulating your brain, the like creative part

789
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 2: of your brain to start working.

790
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's almost like you have to have a

791
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 4: connection with somebody else's brain, somebody else's mind, when yours

792
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 4: isn't really capable so much of of seeing those kinds

793
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,359
Speaker 4: of possibilities in yourself, you have to have someone else

794
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,879
Speaker 4: first lead you into those things that you don't even

795
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 4: recognize in yourself.

796
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 1: Which is such a tricky territory for this podcast in particular,

797
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 1: because you know, we talk a lot about how people

798
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 1: who've experienced trauma or experienced difficulties can often be that

799
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,320
Speaker 1: that's when they're the most vulnerable to you know, someone

800
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:28,320
Speaker 1: who's a predator and might see that moment.

801
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:29,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so.

802
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 1: Important to find expert companions, but also be really discerning

803
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 1: about how much control they are.

804
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 5: You know, they are trying to take.

805
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 4: Absolutely and and so of course we know there always

806
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 4: people out there who will try to take advantage and

807
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:50,839
Speaker 4: are predatory. So you know, finding an expert companion who

808
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,759
Speaker 4: really you know, like your podcast says, you can really

809
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 4: trust requires some discernment, you know. For example, our work

810
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 4: at Bouldercrest, all of our work is done with peers.

811
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,840
Speaker 4: We don't use mental health professionals. All of our programs

812
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:08,319
Speaker 4: are run by peers, so former veterans and people like that,

813
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 4: and we train them up to do this work, and

814
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:15,399
Speaker 4: we make sure that we are including people on our

815
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 4: staff that have been through the program themselves, really understand it,

816
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,359
Speaker 4: really get it and live it because we know how

817
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 4: important it is that that trust that you talk about,

818
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 4: So that is a crucial thing.

819
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 1: There have been moments in my life where all I

820
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 1: wanted was an expert companion and I just didn't feel

821
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,319
Speaker 1: like I had one other than my dearest mother, who's

822
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 1: of course the best, the most expert companion.

823
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 3: It's a tea shirt expert companion.

824
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:47,799
Speaker 1: I'm like, my mom can't be my only expert companion.

825
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 1: I'm an adult, but I feel for anyone who, like

826
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 1: maybe doesn't have that person in their life, and I

827
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 1: just want to quickly shout out and say there are

828
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 1: support groups. You know, a therapist can be that person

829
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:00,839
Speaker 1: for you. There are ways to kind of cultivate those

830
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 1: relationships if you don't currently have them. But also just

831
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 1: reaching out to people. Sometimes we're afraid to reach out

832
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 1: and we might find that once we do, we get

833
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:09,840
Speaker 1: more support than we would have imagined.

834
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:12,760
Speaker 4: Well, I think, you know, the idea of the support

835
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 4: group is so important, and that's why we work with

836
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 4: peers at Bouldercrest, because that's where you feel like you

837
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:20,719
Speaker 4: can be most understood with somebody else has been through

838
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 4: the kinds of things you've been through. I worked for many,

839
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 4: many years with a nonprofit sort of Bereaved Parents. I

840
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:32,360
Speaker 4: ran these support groups weekly for many years with brief Parents,

841
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 4: and you know, that really introduced me to trauma in

842
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:39,839
Speaker 4: a way that was really heart wrenching. And the thing

843
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,879
Speaker 4: about it that's so wonderful, though, is these people are

844
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:46,439
Speaker 4: so hurt by the loss of their children, being able

845
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,240
Speaker 4: to find that they could help someone else in spite

846
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:54,280
Speaker 4: of all their loss and all their hurt. That propels

847
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 4: people forward when they say, oh, there's still something about

848
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 4: me and my story that can be useful to someone else,

849
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:01,760
Speaker 4: So all is not lost.

850
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 1: This is the tearing up for the second time in

851
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 1: this interview.

852
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 3: Doctor.

853
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:12,399
Speaker 1: Our post munic growth and PTSD mutually exclusive or can

854
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:13,320
Speaker 1: you have both?

855
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 2: Like?

856
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 3: How does it work?

857
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 4: Well, they're not music. They derived from the same experience,

858
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 4: you know, the traumatic experiences produced PTSD the symptoms, but

859
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 4: those experiences also can propel people towards growth eventually. Actually,

860
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:31,760
Speaker 4: when you focus people on growth and possibility, it's often

861
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 4: much more effective than focusing on relief of symptoms. In fact,

862
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 4: I was just reading an article yesterday that had just

863
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 4: come out which sort of demonstrates this. But this is

864
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 4: what we're based our Bouldercrust work is based on. We

865
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 4: don't try to relieve people of symptoms. We focus more

866
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:51,360
Speaker 4: on post traumatic growth in the program, and what we

867
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 4: end up seeing is the symptoms decline. Okay, not because

868
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 4: we're trying to treat the symptoms, but because growth gives

869
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 4: peop people a sense of strength and capability that kind

870
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 4: of starts to overwhelm the symptoms, and even the symptoms

871
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 4: that remain become things that people can manage better because

872
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 4: that's not the only thing that they've got anymore. They've

873
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 4: got something more important in their lives that they're attending to.

874
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 4: So the symptoms are like, well, if I have to

875
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 4: have some of this inconvenient crap, you know, it's the

876
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 4: price I pay for something that's important that I'm doing

877
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 4: with my life now.

878
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 5: So be it right.

879
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 1: I feel like that is a theme that has really

880
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 1: come up on all these episodes we've been doing, is

881
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 1: when you focus on what's wrong, and when you focus

882
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:34,840
Speaker 1: on the symptoms and just like trying to fix the

883
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 1: things that are wrong. It seems like pretty consistently, no

884
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:42,720
Speaker 1: matter who we talk to, the healing happens more quickly

885
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,799
Speaker 1: or more strongly. I guess when you like acknowledge that

886
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 1: the symptoms are there and maybe there are different ways

887
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 1: you treat them, but really like look outward and try

888
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:53,919
Speaker 1: to figure out, like, how can I live my best

889
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:55,959
Speaker 1: life even though I'm having this over here?

890
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 4: Yes, that's that's right, and not only living my best life,

891
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 4: but living life that's good for other people. Yeah, that

892
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 4: other people benefit from my life. That's that's the key.

893
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 4: That's you have to have a mission. It feels like after.

894
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 2: Trauma it can't be because we can't hang just stuff

895
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 2: on our ego anymore.

896
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 3: Right, it has to be.

897
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 1: Out Megan, do you feel comfortable talking about the group

898
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 1: that you're in for the religion or no?

899
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, so a listener started a Facebook group about the

900
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 2: religion I was raised in. People who've gotten out of

901
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 2: it and the community that has grown around it is

902
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 2: just absolutely unbelievable.

903
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 1: Does it seem like people are being motivated by the

904
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 1: possibility of helping other people and that's like helping them

905
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 1: get through their experience?

906
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 3: Yes. Absolutely.

907
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:49,320
Speaker 2: Having the meaning of hey, this is what happened to

908
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 2: me even one month ago for the person who's leaving

909
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 2: this month, means that you're like a guide to people.

910
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:58,919
Speaker 2: There's this huge meaning to everything that you're going through.

911
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 2: There's a mission, there's purpose, there's something to live for.

912
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 2: So absolutely, such a good example.

913
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:05,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, awesome.

914
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,319
Speaker 1: Can you tell us what the personality traits are. I

915
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:10,319
Speaker 1: think there are five of them, the big five that

916
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,280
Speaker 1: are correlated with post traumatic growth.

917
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,759
Speaker 4: I tell you neuroticism tends not to be correlated with

918
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 4: post traumatic.

919
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:17,520
Speaker 5: Growth, neuroticism.

920
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:21,799
Speaker 4: Okay, oops, And so among the others, probably the two

921
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 4: that are most important are openness to experience and extraversion.

922
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 4: Extraversion because there's a facet of extraversion that has to

923
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 4: do with positive emotions. So people that are able to

924
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:37,839
Speaker 4: access positive emotions do better, not surprisingly, and also those

925
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 4: are people who might be better at reaching out to

926
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 4: other people and finding expert companions. Openness to experience, well,

927
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 4: if you're open to novelty. Trauma is novelty. That's one

928
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 4: thing we can say about it. It's something new, different, strange,

929
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:57,439
Speaker 4: and if you can, if you can approach that rather

930
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 4: than suppress it, then you have a possible ability of

931
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 4: learning something from your own experience. So those two things.

932
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 4: But the relationships between those personality characteristics and post traumatic

933
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 4: growth isn't huge. So I always hesitate to give people

934
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 4: the impression that if you're not high on those aspects

935
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 4: of personality, that somehow this is inaccessible to you. And

936
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:19,439
Speaker 4: that's not the case.

937
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:21,359
Speaker 1: I'm so glad to hear you say that I don't

938
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:26,279
Speaker 1: have access to that extraversion not in here. No, I

939
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:30,800
Speaker 1: have openness to experience, extraversion, neuroticism.

940
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 2: I have written down here to ask him what is

941
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 2: catastrophe theory.

942
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, catastrophe theory is a theory which posits that

943
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:45,000
Speaker 4: there are certain breaking points that you cannot reconstruct what's

944
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 4: been broken and have it be in the same form.

945
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:50,799
Speaker 4: You know, if you have a piece of material you

946
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:53,959
Speaker 4: and you start to put pressures on it, eventually it'll break.

947
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:57,399
Speaker 4: And different materials break, different plastics, steel, whatever. They break

948
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 4: it in different times and with different amount of pressure,

949
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 4: and once it's broken, you can't just put it back

950
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 4: together and it'd be exactly the same as it was.

951
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:09,319
Speaker 4: So same thing with post traumatic growth. I mean, we

952
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 4: break in a way because of these events, and we

953
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 4: put ourselves back together, but we're different. We can't go

954
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 4: back to the way we used to be, which is

955
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 4: a good thing. In the new version of us, we're

956
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 4: maybe better and more than we were the old version.

957
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 4: So for example, on the cover of the book that

958
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 4: I mentioned Transformed by Trauma Stories of post Traumatic Growth,

959
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:38,840
Speaker 4: we have a picture of a piece of pottery that's

960
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:41,760
Speaker 4: been broken and put back together with gold.

961
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:44,320
Speaker 5: Right, It's that one method that I always forget the

962
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 5: name of.

963
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 4: It's a Japanese art called konsugi, and they deliberately break

964
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 4: these pieces of pottery and put them back together with

965
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:57,799
Speaker 4: precious metals and showing that it's even more beautiful than

966
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:01,880
Speaker 4: it was when it was whole. You know, that's a

967
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 4: sort of a catastrophe over the pottery, right, yeah, right,

968
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 4: But in putting it back together, it's different. It's not

969
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,400
Speaker 4: the same, but it's a more beautiful version.

970
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 2: It is more beautiful, it's more interesting, it's more you know,

971
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 2: everybody knows that there's not much fun to have and

972
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,200
Speaker 2: talking to this is maybe rood of me to say

973
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,840
Speaker 2: about the popular guy at school until something happens in

974
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 2: his life to make him a little bit more human?

975
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:29,200
Speaker 3: Is that a boring? And shit? Is that? Can I

976
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 3: say that? I don't know?

977
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 4: People seem perfect or kind of hard to relate to,

978
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:33,760
Speaker 4: aren't they?

979
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's a lot people are intimidated by me,

980
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:42,319
Speaker 2: I think. But did we miss anything that you think

981
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:44,080
Speaker 2: would be good to add to the conversation.

982
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:46,759
Speaker 4: Well, I think I just want to say that if

983
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:50,040
Speaker 4: you've had struggles in your life and you have learned

984
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 4: some things about living well in the aftermath of your struggles,

985
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:56,759
Speaker 4: it provides you with the basis for being an expert companion.

986
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:00,200
Speaker 4: Someone could be helpful to others, and so look for

987
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 4: that as your as part of your mission.

988
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 1: I love that so much. I feel like this has

989
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 1: been so enriching. This is such a great conversation. I'm yeah,

990
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 1: really grateful that you came on and talked to us.

991
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 4: Well, thank you very much, and I enjoyed it.

992
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 1: So is there a particular book or a program that

993
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 1: you want to direct people toward.

994
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 4: Well, look at Bouldercrest dot org for the website of

995
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 4: my organization that I work with that includes a lot

996
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 4: of information. In the books I mentioned the Postermata Growth

997
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 4: Workbook I about trauma. Those are useful I think for

998
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:34,239
Speaker 4: the general public in terms of learning more about this

999
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:37,319
Speaker 4: and understanding how to get through wonderful.

1000
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:38,960
Speaker 1: Well, thank you for all the work that you do.

1001
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:41,360
Speaker 1: You're contributing great things to the world.

1002
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:44,239
Speaker 4: Well, I appreciate that. That's part of my mission. I

1003
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 4: guess we could say you're.

1004
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:46,960
Speaker 3: The world's expert companion.

1005
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 4: That's a little more than I can tell you.

1006
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 3: That was mister Rogers. Meghan called down. Sorry, well, thank

1007
00:50:57,680 --> 00:50:58,279
Speaker 3: you so much.

1008
00:50:58,360 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 5: All right, thank you so much.

1009
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:02,200
Speaker 4: Day guys, bye bye bye.

1010
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 1: Okay, Megan, it's that time of the podcast or ask

1011
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:08,839
Speaker 1: you a question, but this one, I'm going to ask

1012
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:11,880
Speaker 1: you the same question you asked me, which is what

1013
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:14,120
Speaker 1: post traumatic growth have you experienced if any?

1014
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, my entire life's purpose is based off of the

1015
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 2: healing that I get from my trauma once I started

1016
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 2: to move through it a little bit. I've always been

1017
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 2: a writer, but I always felt really blocked. And the

1018
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:33,720
Speaker 2: healthier I get mentally, the more all of this stuff

1019
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:37,880
Speaker 2: is coming through. And it's really deep stuff, it's layered

1020
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 2: stuff because it's from me.

1021
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:39,759
Speaker 5: What do you mean?

1022
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:39,840
Speaker 3: What?

1023
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 5: What does stuff mean?

1024
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 2: Like being raised in a cult telling you that you're

1025
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:46,440
Speaker 2: going to hell being a human being is inherently wrong.

1026
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 3: It's absolutely awful to be here.

1027
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 2: Is such a scary place to live as a child,

1028
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 2: you know, obviously not being around anybody.

1029
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:56,480
Speaker 3: I mean, the first twelve years of my life, I

1030
00:51:56,560 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 3: was totally.

1031
00:51:57,239 --> 00:52:00,759
Speaker 2: Alone, just reading reader's digests and Sweet Valley Highs whatever

1032
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 2: I could get my hands on.

1033
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:02,719
Speaker 3: Love Sweet Valley High.

1034
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then it was a really lonely, scary childhood.

1035
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 2: And I've always thought, Okay, that's really sad, but life

1036
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:17,320
Speaker 2: is beautiful now, so it's okay. But now I see, like, oh,

1037
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:21,160
Speaker 2: I'm healing from it, finally, because I'm talking on this

1038
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 2: podcast and I'm really looking at it, and my logical

1039
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:26,840
Speaker 2: brain is getting stronger and starting to take over a

1040
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:29,440
Speaker 2: little bit from that and her child stuff that just

1041
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:32,280
Speaker 2: believes not even in the religion, just in.

1042
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:35,359
Speaker 3: Hell, that's all it believes in. Oh wow, just in hell.

1043
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:39,319
Speaker 2: That I'm definitely going to The more I start to

1044
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:42,280
Speaker 2: heal from that, the more this story that I loved

1045
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 2: becomes a piece of art that I know will help

1046
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:49,000
Speaker 2: other people. And sure, it would have been nice to

1047
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:52,560
Speaker 2: be eleven and watchful House with some other kids. But

1048
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 2: if I could create something that resonates with a lot

1049
00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:59,799
Speaker 2: of people or even just a few people, that to

1050
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:01,080
Speaker 2: me is meaningful.

1051
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:02,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's pretty cool.

1052
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:04,759
Speaker 1: So you feel like the healthier you get, the more

1053
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 1: you're sort of understanding what kind of happened to you

1054
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:10,200
Speaker 1: and like yet integrating that.

1055
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 2: There was a point when we first started this podcast

1056
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:15,120
Speaker 2: where I didn't know what you were talking about.

1057
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:17,399
Speaker 5: You see, I think the not.

1058
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 3: Understand that's so interesting the trauma. I was just like,

1059
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:24,240
Speaker 3: what is she talking about?

1060
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:26,399
Speaker 1: Was it just like it wasn't a big deal. Why

1061
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 1: are we talking about religion like this?

1062
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 3: No?

1063
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:31,719
Speaker 2: No, it was more like you know, if you're a

1064
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 2: fish in water, you don't even know you're in water.

1065
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:37,720
Speaker 2: It was like I was so deep in this fear

1066
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 2: and really weird way of relating to this subject.

1067
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:45,160
Speaker 3: I just couldn't think about it in an.

1068
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:49,160
Speaker 2: Interesting, creative, open, or like helpful way. I just felt

1069
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 2: like I showed up every week like what is happening?

1070
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 3: And now I'm like, oh.

1071
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 2: My god, like nerding out, researching everyone having so much fun,

1072
00:53:57,080 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 2: like loving it because I finally understood it just opened

1073
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 2: a different portal for me.

1074
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:03,640
Speaker 3: I don't know how to explain it.

1075
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:04,359
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1076
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, but the more open it gets, the more my

1077
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:11,920
Speaker 2: traits that are positive have room to grow and shine.

1078
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:14,320
Speaker 2: And they wouldn't have gotten as big as they've gotten

1079
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 2: unless I went through what I went through.

1080
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 1: Wow, yeah, that's amazing. I mean, I'm so glad to

1081
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:22,799
Speaker 1: be a part of the journey with you. Although I'm

1082
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:25,439
Speaker 1: sorry you didn't know what was going on for so long.

1083
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 3: I feel like I forced you into this. I'm like,

1084
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 3: you're doing a cult podcast. No no, no no, no, you

1085
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:30,400
Speaker 3: didn't like I was so happy.

1086
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:33,040
Speaker 2: It was more so like I just wanted to contribute

1087
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 2: interesting thoughts, but all I could see it as is like,

1088
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:38,839
Speaker 2: this is scary. You're like, ooh, what if we went

1089
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:40,920
Speaker 2: and talked to these people who hit these people and

1090
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:43,799
Speaker 2: like but and you're like no, it's like and I

1091
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:46,480
Speaker 2: just didn't understand. I don't know how to explain it

1092
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:50,280
Speaker 2: any other way. But as the trauma healed, a part

1093
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 2: of my intellect opened.

1094
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:52,440
Speaker 3: Wow.

1095
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 5: That is that's amazing. Yeah, that's amazing.

1096
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:57,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean it makes sense. It's hard

1097
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:02,680
Speaker 1: to talk about thing that you aren't really facing yourself.

1098
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:05,160
Speaker 3: Right, maybe that's the better way of saying it.

1099
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 2: But how it relates to positive growth is that I

1100
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:10,759
Speaker 2: think that I would have been kind always, like I

1101
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:13,800
Speaker 2: was always like a little nice little girl, but I

1102
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:16,960
Speaker 2: don't think I would be as willing to be empathetic

1103
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 2: with people going through really hard ship if I hadn't,

1104
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:23,600
Speaker 2: so then that just makes my pain so much more

1105
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:25,920
Speaker 2: worth it. It makes my life so much more meaningful

1106
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:26,160
Speaker 2: to me.

1107
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:27,560
Speaker 5: So that's awesome, Megan.

1108
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:30,520
Speaker 2: That's what this meant to me, this little podcast, and

1109
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:33,240
Speaker 2: I love is not that this podcast is a little

1110
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:35,480
Speaker 2: this specific episode.

1111
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:37,920
Speaker 3: Which isn't little either, it's a big episode. It's a big.

1112
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:42,160
Speaker 5: Well thank you for sharing. That's that's awesome.

1113
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:44,920
Speaker 3: Thank you. That's all we got folks. Please have a

1114
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:47,719
Speaker 3: delightful week. We can't wait to see you here next week.

1115
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:51,160
Speaker 3: Remember to follow your gut, watch out for flags, and

1116
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 3: that ever ever dressing me.

1117
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:55,200
Speaker 4: Wow.