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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class A production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio, Hello and Happy Friday. I am

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Speaker 1: Holly Fry and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. So we talked

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Speaker 1: about the interesting, inspiring, and sometimes a little bit difficult.

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Speaker 1: It goes off Courbet this week. Um, I will see.

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Speaker 1: Before we get into my thoughts on Corbett, there's another

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Speaker 1: piece in the what we do in the Shadows opening

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Speaker 1: credits that I really wanted to do an episode on,

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Speaker 1: but it's impossible. It is the portrait of Salom a

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Speaker 1: by Area Regno. He died really young, he does not

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Speaker 1: have a whole lot of life stories. So maybe at

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Speaker 1: some point we'll do a Six Impossible Artists or something

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Speaker 1: along those lines. Because I am in love with that painting.

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Speaker 1: And this is one of the cases, like throughout that

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Speaker 1: opening credit scene, which is very clever and super smart

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Speaker 1: and beauty really done, you know, I in some cases

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Speaker 1: recognized the art and of course it's like, oh, that's funny.

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Speaker 1: The one that they did where they inserted not just

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Speaker 1: face into Salom I think is actually better than the

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Speaker 1: original painting. Like there's something about the balance of her

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Speaker 1: facial features and her hair and the way her dress

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Speaker 1: is draped. That is perfection to me, and I love

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Speaker 1: it so much. But anyway, Corbet, we read that quote

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Speaker 1: about how Corbet was obsessed with his own looks and

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Speaker 1: how he always made himself look more beautiful than he was.

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Speaker 1: This is very fascinating to me, and I found myself

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Speaker 1: thinking about it a lot in the last week because

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Speaker 1: we have reached a point socially where I think people

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Speaker 1: understand that it is not cool to comment on people's looks.

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Speaker 1: Not everyone has reached a point, but most people. But

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Speaker 1: Corbet is one of those people that, like, no one

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Speaker 1: seems to have any hesitancy to go oh, he looked

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Speaker 1: like that. He was like kind of pudgy and looked

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Speaker 1: a little dumpy when he painted that. But he painted

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Speaker 1: himself like he was twenty and hot. And I just

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Speaker 1: find this fascinating. So I I I get the art

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Speaker 1: that's going to go on our social media. It used

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Speaker 1: to be art that would go on our website back

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Speaker 1: when we had a website, but now it pretty much

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Speaker 1: goes on our social media and the where else. And

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Speaker 1: when we have an artist, I usually try to see

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Speaker 1: first if they did a self portrait that could be

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Speaker 1: the art work because when you're seeing a work by

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Speaker 1: the artist and what they look like together in one picture,

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Speaker 1: And there were many, and as I was I was

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Speaker 1: clicking through them, I was like, he looks like Trouble.

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Speaker 1: He looks like he should be friends with Franz List.

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Speaker 1: He looks like a person who would inspire a Listomania

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Speaker 1: style response. If I were a gifted painter, I'm sure

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Speaker 1: I would also paint myself hotter than I well, and

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Speaker 1: to be clear, I mean, I think most descriptions of

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Speaker 1: him when he was young, everyone does kind of agree

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Speaker 1: that he went through like just a smoking hot, super appealing.

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Speaker 1: Everyone thought he was gorgeous period, but then it ended

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Speaker 1: kind of early in his life. Um, which again, like

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Speaker 1: that also gets into play of like universal societal standards

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Speaker 1: of what is beautiful and what is not right. Sure,

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Speaker 1: but yes, to compare him to a young France List

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Speaker 1: is very on point. And he did continue to paint

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Speaker 1: himself as looking more like that when he had ceased

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Speaker 1: to really look like that later in his life, and

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Speaker 1: apparently to paint other people not as attractive as they

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Speaker 1: naturally were. But I don't know if that's just somebody

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Speaker 1: being kind of um judge, kind of snippy about everything. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I I really do love his self portraits, and

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Speaker 1: some of them they he looks like exactly the poster

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Speaker 1: child of like dangerous romantic era party boy. And then

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Speaker 1: you see a photograph of him and you're like, I

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Speaker 1: didn't quite line up the way I was thinking, which

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Speaker 1: is again, no, he listened. He still had a lot

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Speaker 1: of romantic entanglements. Plenty of people found him attractive throughout

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Speaker 1: his entire life, although there is a story that he

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Speaker 1: was involved with a young woman younger than him, woman

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Speaker 1: when he was in his his fifties. I think, and

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Speaker 1: he did not understand for the life of him. We

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Speaker 1: talked about how he said he's never getting married. He

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Speaker 1: did not understand for the life of him, why this

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Speaker 1: young woman would choose a different suitor who wanted to

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Speaker 1: marry her over the life of passion and excitement that

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Speaker 1: he could offer. He just didn't see the appeal. He

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Speaker 1: was like, why would she do this? That's foolish. Again.

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Speaker 1: This is so we get into the I have trouble

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Speaker 1: with his arrogance. I cannot imagine being that conceited or arrogant.

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Speaker 1: Those are two qualities I do not delight in, and

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Speaker 1: so for him to be so self aware of it, like,

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Speaker 1: do you not know what the most arrogant man in

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Speaker 1: Paris get out of? Here? Is a lot I also

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Speaker 1: promised some gossip. So the model for the origin of

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Speaker 1: the world has been debated for a long time. Um

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Speaker 1: there have even been some people who have put forth

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Speaker 1: the theory that he hasn't in fact painting a dead woman.

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Speaker 1: That's not a very common or widely accepted one. I

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Speaker 1: think that's a sensational and thrilling one to think about.

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Speaker 1: But most people would agree that the model or I

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Speaker 1: don't know if I should say most people would agree.

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Speaker 1: A lot of our historians believe that the model for

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Speaker 1: that piece was a woman named Joanna Hiffernan. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if that's how she pronounced her. She was a Johanna,

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Speaker 1: she was Irish. She modeled for him for a lot

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Speaker 1: of pieces. She was also the girlfriend of James Whistler,

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Speaker 1: and she may have had an affair with Corbett what

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Speaker 1: because he and James Whistler were friends and then at

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Speaker 1: one point they stopped being friends completely And a lot

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Speaker 1: of people have theorized that it was because of this

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Speaker 1: romantic triangle problem going on, and that Whistler was like,

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Speaker 1: not cool with any of that. Um. There's also an

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Speaker 1: interesting piece, This isn't really um gossip. But again, much

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Speaker 1: like the way the artist studio continues to get debated

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Speaker 1: over what it means and what it is, the Origin

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Speaker 1: of the World also continues to get debated outside of

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Speaker 1: whether people think it is pornographic. I would say it's

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Speaker 1: not safe for work, but whether people think it is

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Speaker 1: pornographic or not. Outside of that, there are discussions about

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Speaker 1: whether that is the entire painting. Uh. Some people have

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Speaker 1: suggested that it had included it. Again, it's from a

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Speaker 1: pretty severe angle on the body, so even if you

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Speaker 1: could see the woman's head and face, it might look

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Speaker 1: a little weird. But there are some people that have

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Speaker 1: found this other portrait he did of Hiffernan and said like, no,

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Speaker 1: this matches up. But other art historians are like, no,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't. You're kind of grasping at straws. So there

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Speaker 1: are certainly like theories to play with there about whether

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Speaker 1: or not he cut that part off of his canvas

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Speaker 1: to try to avoid getting anybody angry, and apparently that

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Speaker 1: didn't work, if in fact that was the cause of

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Speaker 1: his his sudden severance of his friendship with Whisling. It's

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Speaker 1: all very dramatic. I feel like his personal life was

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Speaker 1: particularly romantically very dramatic at all times. Um fascinating dramatic.

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Speaker 1: I really love a lot of his work. I think

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Speaker 1: he probably was insufferable to be around maybe, or maybe

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Speaker 1: he was delightful unless you were an art critic. I

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Speaker 1: don't know, hard to know, hard to know. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he seemed, you know, like we said, completely devoted to

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Speaker 1: his family. He adored his parents, he loved his sisters,

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Speaker 1: he loved the people of Ornan. So he wasn't like

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Speaker 1: so arrogant or conceded that it was all about him.

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Speaker 1: He certainly cared for other people, but also seemed you know,

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Speaker 1: more complex. Possibly it's suffrable. One of the things we

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Speaker 1: talked about this week was Chris Wald versus Connecticut, uh

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Speaker 1: and connected to way more recent Supreme Court decisions, maybe

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Speaker 1: future ones. Who knows this point. So one of the

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Speaker 1: things that amused me really when I was working on

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Speaker 1: this was there was the part we talked about about

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Speaker 1: United States versus One Package. Full name is United States

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Speaker 1: versus One Package of Japanese pessaries, but it's usually just

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Speaker 1: written out as United States versus one Package, and so

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Speaker 1: having just seen that name crop up before, I then

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Speaker 1: stopped to like go look into the details of that case.

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Speaker 1: I had thought that one Package was like a store

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Speaker 1: that would discreetly send you contraception or something like. It

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Speaker 1: did not occur to me that it was going to

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Speaker 1: be a literal box. No, it's an actual box of stuff. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I have a number of thoughts about that, and

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Speaker 1: I think you did too well. Mine are the silly ones,

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Speaker 1: which I think we needed after that episode. But um,

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Speaker 1: I know that at that point, when a case is

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Speaker 1: going on, the whole point of it is really like

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Speaker 1: to examine and potentially make changes to interpretation of the

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Speaker 1: law off. But in my head, I find the hilarity

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Speaker 1: of like a package being sentenced in some way very funny.

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Speaker 1: Like I'm instantly render the cartoon in my head of

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Speaker 1: one package having to do hard labor somewhere and just

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Speaker 1: like sitting by the side of the road for like

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Speaker 1: a couple of hours a day, or like one package

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Speaker 1: with a fine issued to it and it's not having

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Speaker 1: pockets to look in for money, And that's the cartoon

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Speaker 1: that my brain plays. I think I would have had

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Speaker 1: a really hard time wrapping my head around just the

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Speaker 1: basic existence of that case. Had I not learned about

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Speaker 1: multiple cases recently that are about cases granting personhood to

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Speaker 1: basically elements of nature, So like a river being granted personhood,

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Speaker 1: so the river has the right to sue in court

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Speaker 1: over being polluted, like stuff like that, which is an

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Speaker 1: interesting way to think about that. And there's an episode

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Speaker 1: of the podcast Invisible It talks about a few different

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Speaker 1: it cases like that, a few different circumstances where there's

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Speaker 1: been either in tribal court or in like US or

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Speaker 1: state court, the idea that a natural system would be

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Speaker 1: granted a personhood um. And one of the arguments was

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Speaker 1: about how, okay, so if the river has the right

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Speaker 1: to sue against a polluter, and then what if, like

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Speaker 1: what if there is a flood and the river floods

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Speaker 1: your house, do you have the right to sue the

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Speaker 1: river for having done that? Like what how does that

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Speaker 1: all work out? Uh? And I was like, what an

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Speaker 1: interesting argument do you even think about? And so yeah,

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Speaker 1: I had I had over the last few months learned

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Speaker 1: about various efforts or cases or arguments or whatever about

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Speaker 1: that particular idea and I think that made it easier

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Speaker 1: for me to even imagine that there would have been

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Speaker 1: a suit filed against a box of pessaries that were

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Speaker 1: used for contraceptive purposes. Yet it's funny. Yeah. My other

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Speaker 1: to take away from this episode on the later things

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Speaker 1: I can pluck out of it is that PT. Barnum

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Speaker 1: is everywhere. I know. I just did, uh, and it

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Speaker 1: was fairly late for whatever reason. I mean, I had

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Speaker 1: read all of these things about the Connecticut law and

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Speaker 1: what it included and what the text of it was

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Speaker 1: and blah blah blah, and then I saw things like

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Speaker 1: introduced by P. T. Barnum and I was like, for real, though,

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Speaker 1: because I think folks that live in Connecticut may learn

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Speaker 1: more about his work as a legislator when other folks

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Speaker 1: mostly know him because of the circus. I do not

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Speaker 1: have any idea if the episodes that previous hosts of

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Speaker 1: the show have done about Barnum, if they talk about

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Speaker 1: that part at all, because I know there are some

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Speaker 1: of the archive. He also popped up on our episode

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Speaker 1: on Spirit photography. Oh yeah, because as you'll recall, he

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Speaker 1: testified in court that those people were fleecing people because

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Speaker 1: he was like I'm an expert on ridiculousness, and this

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Speaker 1: is absolutely ridiculous, and I just find it hilarious that

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Speaker 1: he had his nose in so many different places. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I said during the episode that I I had previously

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Speaker 1: just not been able to understand the reasoning in ro

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Speaker 1: versus Wade. Again, we're talking about the outcome, talking about

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Speaker 1: like the argument that the court took to get there,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, I don't understand. I would try

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Speaker 1: to read an explanation, I would still be like, I

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Speaker 1: don't I don't understand how you got there. And that's

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Speaker 1: been one of the like ongoing until now it's been overturned.

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Speaker 1: Like one of the ongoing concerns about it was like

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Speaker 1: to have an issue that is that morally and ethically

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Speaker 1: different angles, to have it rest on something that feels

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Speaker 1: kind of like an argument house of cards. Yeah, it's scary, scary, uh,

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Speaker 1: for legitimate reasons because now it's a returned Yes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I those always those always similarly to me. I'm always like,

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Speaker 1: this is really the best tech to take. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that was one of the reasons why every time

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Speaker 1: I would idly go, okay, should we do an episode

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Speaker 1: on Roe v. Wade? And I'm like, okay, number one,

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Speaker 1: how do we? I mean, a lot of teachers use

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Speaker 1: our show in their classrooms, and to me, an episode

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Speaker 1: on contraception is already kind of like on the line

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Speaker 1: of whether whether that's gonna work in a in a

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Speaker 1: classroom setting, and like an episode on abortion is like

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Speaker 1: probably gonna be something that most teachers are like gonna

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Speaker 1: have to watch out for it, like not leave the

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Speaker 1: podcast playing in the background if their kids, the kids

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Speaker 1: they're teaching are in younger grades, right, Like that that

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Speaker 1: was the thing that I would sort of think about,

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Speaker 1: but then I would also kind of go And I

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Speaker 1: also don't understand the ruling. And also there are also

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Speaker 1: all these other issues around, like the facts of the

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Speaker 1: case and the people involved, and when Norma McCorvey, who

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Speaker 1: was the person who was anonymously known as Jane Roe

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Speaker 1: during this case, like when she died, all of these

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Speaker 1: facts and allegations came out about how she had personally

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Speaker 1: felt about it and whether her things that she had

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Speaker 1: said about it in the times that the court case happened,

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Speaker 1: whether they were genuine, And I was like every time

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Speaker 1: there's just more layers of complexity and mess and like,

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Speaker 1: how is this even possible to talk about in a

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Speaker 1: way that feels all ages friendly? And I could never

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Speaker 1: really wrap my head around it, and then the Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court overturned it. Yeah, it's um, it's it's difficult on

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Speaker 1: a number of of levels. Right, it's a lot to

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Speaker 1: pluck apart those decisions, and like how they came to

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Speaker 1: their reasoning, which again I still even though I technically

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Speaker 1: understand it, I'm like really um. But then also, as

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Speaker 1: you said, like this is a very complex issue that

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Speaker 1: is not just like intellectually important to look at, but

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Speaker 1: also it is very emotional for a lot of people,

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Speaker 1: And so um, I'm very glad you decided to finally

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Speaker 1: like pounce on it. Yeah. I think I ever would

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Speaker 1: have gotten well And I found I found Griswold versus

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Speaker 1: Connecticut to be well. I like I said in the show,

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Speaker 1: it made it a lot easier to understand what the

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Speaker 1: reasoning had been during roversus Wade, but then also the

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Speaker 1: facts of that case, the cases involved, I felt better

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Speaker 1: able to to lay out in a way that was

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Speaker 1: accessible to people and would be as hopefully as I know,

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Speaker 1: I know some states and school systems have incredibly strict

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Speaker 1: rules about what's okay to have playing in a classroom

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Speaker 1: or to use in a classroom resource. But like, I

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Speaker 1: felt more able to write out the facts of this

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Speaker 1: in a way that I felt like was going to

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Speaker 1: be hopefully more able to like not turn the podcast

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Speaker 1: into a a no go for classrooms in general. Uh,

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Speaker 1: not necessarily the specific episode. We always say, like, pre

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Speaker 1: listen to stuff if you're concerned about listening to it

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Speaker 1: with kids or in a classroom or whatever. But um, anyway, anyway,

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Speaker 1: many complicated factors to think through With all of that,

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Speaker 1: m h. If you'd like to send us a note

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Speaker 1: about this any other podcast history podcast, I heeart radio

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Speaker 1: dot com. It's Friday. Hopefully everything that's happening on your

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Speaker 1: weekend is going to be good and RESTful. If it

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Speaker 1: can't be RESTful, I hope there's just like a moment

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Speaker 1: of peace you can grab in there for yourself somewhere

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Speaker 1: if you're working. I hope everybody is great to you. Uh,

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Speaker 1: no terrible customer service encounters or similar. We'll be back

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Speaker 1: on Saturday, Saturday Classic, and then Monday with a brand

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Speaker 1: new episode. Stuff you missed in History of class is

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Speaker 1: a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from

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Speaker 1: I heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

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