1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I am Kshatrati. This week old rocks, 2 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:19,280 Speaker 1: new politicians and another new climate bill. There's a famous 3 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: clip from the Australian Parliament back in twenty seventeen. This 4 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: is kaw type fright while treasure Annie the role of props. 5 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: It's kyl. Scott Morrison, then the Treasurer and soon to 6 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: be Prime Minister, brings a lump of coal into the 7 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: room and taunts the opposition with it. It's no word 8 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 1: for kaula fibia. Officially mister spike gap, but that's the 9 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:44,160 Speaker 1: malady that a flick stars opposite. Over the next few years, 10 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: even while fires, droughts and floods devastated the country, Morrison 11 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 1: was accused of ignoring the threat of climate change, but 12 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: the electorate could not ignore those impacts. Fast forward to 13 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: elections in May twenty twenty two and there was a 14 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: seismic shift in Australian politics. Morrison's Liberal Party took a 15 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,320 Speaker 1: drubbing at the polls and he was replaced by Labors 16 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 1: Anthony Albanesi. Even more surprising was the success of the 17 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 1: Australian Greens and a group of independent candidates known as 18 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:17,680 Speaker 1: the Teals, who promised strong climate action, and now the 19 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: Labor government has done what was not long ago unimaginable. 20 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: It has passed a law that binds the country to 21 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 1: a forty three percent emissions reduction by twenty thirty. Anthony 22 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:32,120 Speaker 1: Albanesi's Climate Change Bill is expected to pass through Parliament 23 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:37,960 Speaker 1: after Teale Independence and the Grains reportedly secured concessions to 24 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 1: support Liba's forty three percent emissions reduction target. Although the 25 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: bill is a historic first, many have criticized it for 26 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: not aligning with what the country must do to help 27 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: the world reach its climate goals, and Australia's ongoing love 28 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: affair with fossil fuels raises questions about how it will 29 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: meet the forty three percent target. The country is one 30 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: of the top two X voters of coal and has 31 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: the third high CEO two emissions per capita of any 32 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:09,239 Speaker 1: G twenty country, higher even than the US. This week 33 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: on Zero we are joined by two politicians who were 34 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: key to the passing of the emissions reduction target and 35 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 1: are committed to strengthening the goal. Later we'll hear from 36 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: international rugby captain turned senator David Pocock, but my first 37 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: guest is Adam Bant, the leader of the Australian Greens. 38 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: He sits in the House of Representatives and his party 39 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: holds the balance of power in the country's Senate. We 40 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: discuss Australia's new political landscape, the fight for better climate legislation, 41 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: and the opportunities for a decarbonized Australia. Adam, Welcome to 42 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 1: the show. Thanks for having me. Now. After the May 43 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: twenty two elections, Australia has what Summer calling the climate supermajority, 44 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:58,959 Speaker 1: with Greens getting their biggest haul and a group of 45 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: independents known as the Teals pouted in on a climate mandate. 46 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,959 Speaker 1: What's changed in the Australian political discourse that means these 47 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: candidates succeeded. There's always been an appetite in Australia to 48 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 1: take action on climate because people see it playing out. 49 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 1: It has just been lacking the federal leadership to do it, 50 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 1: especially over the last decade. But we've just come off 51 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: the back of three years of droughts and bush fires 52 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: that gained international attention and also then floods, and there 53 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: was a real understanding that the federal government was not 54 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: only unwilling to act, but was actually actively expanding coal 55 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: and gas, and in fact, in response to the COVID pandemic, 56 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: the Prime Minister Scott Morrison led what he called a 57 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: gas led recovery to take public money to invest in 58 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 1: opening up new gas fields, as if that would how 59 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: be a solution to the economic and social wars facing 60 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: us after the pandemic. Were this growing sense that the 61 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: climate crisis was hitting us at home, but also seeing 62 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: international movement, even from conservative governments from the United Kingdom 63 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:19,280 Speaker 1: for example, but also governments in the United States post 64 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 1: Trump starting to act. It was a real sense that 65 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 1: enough was enough and it was time for Australia to 66 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 1: act on climate. And what we saw at the election 67 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,480 Speaker 1: was not only a change of government but a really 68 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: interesting result where the then government, Scott Morrison's government and 69 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 1: the now government Anthony Albernizi's Labor both saw their votes 70 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: go backwards. They both promoted more coal and gas and 71 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: both saw their votes go backwards, and the parties and 72 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: the people who votes went up, which was the Greens 73 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 1: getting our biggest ever representation in Parliament and our highest 74 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 1: ever vote and a number of independents on strong climate 75 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 1: platforms all tackled the question of climate and coal and 76 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 1: gas and said it's time to get out of coal 77 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: and gas and stop opening up coal and gas. And 78 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 1: that's what the people rewarded as a result of the election. 79 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:13,280 Speaker 1: There's now a bill that enshrains and emissions reductions target 80 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: in law and that's a forty three percent reduction over 81 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: two thousand five levels by twenty thirty. Is that what 82 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: the science says we need to keep global warming below 83 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 1: one point five degrees celsius. It's definitely not, and the 84 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: science says that Australia is for it to do its 85 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: fair share to limit global warming to one and a 86 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: half degrees, would have to be cutting pollution by seventy 87 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 1: four percent by twenty thirty, which is of course close 88 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 1: to the United kingdom sixty eight percent target. The independent 89 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: analysis done in Australia of Australia's fair share also says 90 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:50,840 Speaker 1: that even if one were to give up on one 91 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: and a half degrees and still aim for the well 92 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: below two degree target of the Paris Agreement, Australia's domestic 93 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: contribution would need to be fifty percent, So to be 94 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 1: Paris Agreement compliant, Australia would need to be doing between 95 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: fifty and seventy four percent, and it's not the forty 96 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: three percent that the government wouldn't budge from that was 97 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: in the bill. Is based on no qualified power stations 98 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: closing earlier than anticipated, and they made that a big 99 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: election promise. But what we were able to do is 100 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: the Greens would secure some changes to the bill that 101 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:28,799 Speaker 1: would allow it to be ratcheted up quickly without obstacle. 102 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: We ensured that the target couldn't be reduced if there 103 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: was a change of government. And for the first time also, 104 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 1: we're going to see it harder for government agencies to 105 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 1: fund new coal and gas project because climate goals and 106 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: temperature limits are now going to be included in the 107 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: governing legislation for a lot of Australia's agencies, like the 108 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 1: Export Finance Agency that in the past has been used 109 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 1: to promote fossil fuels and to fund fossil fuel expansion. 110 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: Now that is going to be a bit harder. So 111 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: we as the Greens, pushed for some changes, secured some 112 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:07,480 Speaker 1: changes to a weak bill to the point where we 113 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: were prepared to pass it. But doesn't do what the 114 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: science requires. No, and I suspect not even the government 115 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: says that it's a science based target, but the bill 116 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: does not give any new funding or really, beyond the 117 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: points you made, any concrete policy to be able to 118 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: get to even the forty three percent target. So is 119 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: the current law anything more than symbolic. Well, you're right 120 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: that there's Apart from some of the things that I mentioned, 121 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: it doesn't really have a lot of teeth. And the 122 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: government was upfront about that. They said they wanted targets 123 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: enshrined in law to give certainty to the country that 124 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: there would be emissions reductions. But the government is still 125 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 1: yet to detail how it's going to mate even this 126 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: week target, and that work will be done overcoming months 127 00:07:56,040 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: as the government lays out its mechanism for requiring existing 128 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: polluters to start cutting their pollution and also critically how 129 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: we'll deal with the question of proposed new coal and 130 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: gas projects. That mechanism is going to need the support 131 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: of the Senate, where the Government does not have the 132 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: majority and where the Greens are sitting in balance of power. 133 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: So over the coming months we'll be pushing very hard 134 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: to say, having passed this legislation, now we need to 135 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: give it some teeth and government needs to put some 136 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: meat on the bones of its policy, and the country 137 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 1: will be looking very very closely at that, not only 138 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: because there is a very big question about how the 139 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: government is going to meet even its weak targets, but 140 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 1: also because there are some big new coal and gas 141 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 1: projects that are in the pipeline that the government is backing, 142 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: and the expert analysis locally is that there's no way 143 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 1: that the government can approve those projects and still expect 144 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: to meet even its weaky three percent target. Some of 145 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: these projects are so big that if even just one 146 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: of them goes ahead, it would blow that forty three 147 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: percent target out of the water. So all eyes are 148 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: now turning to what the government is actually going to 149 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,679 Speaker 1: do to cut pollution. So that's the science, and we 150 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 1: need a lot more emissions reduction. But how much support 151 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,559 Speaker 1: is there from the public, from business and from major 152 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 1: polluters to go beyond the forty three percent target. There's 153 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: a lot of support from the public and indeed from 154 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 1: business as well. Interestingly, in the lead up to the election, 155 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: business was saying that a target even closer to fifty 156 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: percent would be acceptable in Australia. So in many respects, 157 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: the government was undercarting what sum even in the business 158 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: community are saying there's a lot of support from the public, 159 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: as I've said, for more ambitious action because we now 160 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: have the situation where less than a third of the 161 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: country voted for the party that is in government, the 162 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: Labor Party, and there's a reference for the parties whose 163 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 1: votes went up were the ones who said do more 164 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: than this forty three percent target. The push, as I mentioned, 165 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,599 Speaker 1: through the business front, where there's going to be a 166 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,719 Speaker 1: real issue is how much work is government going to 167 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:19,559 Speaker 1: ask existing business to do to cut pollution and how 168 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: much harder is that going to be for existing business 169 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 1: to cut pollution if the government builds in space to 170 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: open up new projects, so to take one of them, 171 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 1: for example, the b to Loop basin in the Northern Territory, 172 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,319 Speaker 1: that project alone, if it goes ahead, would lift Australia's 173 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: domestic commissions by up to thirteen percent and it's not 174 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: included in the forty three percent modeling. That would in 175 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: turn impose a lot more obligations on existing business to 176 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,079 Speaker 1: make a way for these big climate busting projects. And 177 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:49,599 Speaker 1: that's why I think you'll see you overcoming months a 178 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: greater community push, including with business side by side, to 179 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: say we can't keep addressing this problem at the same 180 00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 1: time as making the problem worse. You can't put the 181 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 1: fire are out while you're pouring petrol on it. And 182 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:03,599 Speaker 1: I think one of the things that needs to be 183 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:07,679 Speaker 1: understood is just how central coal and gas are to 184 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 1: the Australian political economy. And Australia is the world's third 185 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,679 Speaker 1: largest exporter of fossil fuel pollution and on track to be, 186 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: if not already the largest exporter of gas, primarily in 187 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 1: the form of LNG, and so all of this raises 188 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: real questions as to how Australia is going to contribute 189 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 1: to the climate challenge. And these big coal and gas 190 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: corporations have a lot of sway over the government. We'll 191 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: be pushing really, really hard as the government writes these 192 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 1: new laws and regulations to actually now start cutting pollution, 193 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:43,199 Speaker 1: to say, look, we'll have the debate about how quickly 194 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: to get out of coal and gas, but we've got 195 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: to draw a line under existing projects and say no 196 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:50,679 Speaker 1: more new projects. And that's going to be one of 197 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: the big battles overcoming months. Now. How politically feasible is 198 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: it anyway? Given Let's consider Norway, which is an aisle 199 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: exporting country that has both. It's major political party is 200 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 1: completely in agreement that oil continues to be the source 201 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: of revenue, that they will continue to support oil extraction. 202 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: And yet it's done domestically pretty green things. You know, 203 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: it's blessed with hydropower, it's been electrifying, it's transport very quickly, 204 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 1: but it still hasn't been able to get rid of 205 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: the addiction to oil. Why do you think Australia can 206 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: do it? Because our big trading partners have all set 207 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:32,559 Speaker 1: themselves net zero targets. So the countries that are responsible 208 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: for seventy five percent of our coal exports, our thermal 209 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: coal exports, have all set themselves net zero by twenty 210 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: fifty or twenty sixty targets. Now, if you work backwards 211 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 1: from that, that means they're going to have to decarbonize 212 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: their electricity sectors sometime around the twenty thirties if they're 213 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: going to meet a twenty fifty net zero target across 214 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: the economy. So, in other words, they've already given Australia 215 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,079 Speaker 1: deadline about getting out of coal. Similarly, with gas, the 216 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: growing demand from trading partners in Asia in particular is 217 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:09,959 Speaker 1: for hydrogen and is that's going to be one of 218 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,079 Speaker 1: the key ways that those economies are going to be 219 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:15,719 Speaker 1: able to meet their own climate goals, in their own 220 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: net zero emissions goals. So the outlook for these exports 221 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: at the moment is bleak. But Australia itself, actually, when 222 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: it comes to gas, for example, does not get a lot. 223 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: It's primarily it's big multinationals that are extracting and often 224 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: paying no tax and in many instances not even paying 225 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: royalties on the gas itself. So for in Australia, twenty 226 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: seven big gas corporations in one year brought in seventy 227 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: seven billion dollars Australian of revenue in one year and 228 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: paid zero dollars tax on it. So unlike Norway, where 229 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:55,959 Speaker 1: they have at least a tax system that enables them 230 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 1: to gain some wealth from the fossil fuels that they're 231 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: ding to help drive a domestic transformation, Australia is not 232 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: even getting that. There's enormous, enormous state capture of the 233 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: political parties in Australia by these big gas and coal corporations, 234 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: but it actually doesn't deliver back to the economy what 235 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: a lot of people might think it does, and so 236 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: there's enormous opportunities economically for Australia to get off it. 237 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: And also that's the way it's going because that's where 238 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: our training partners are going. But look at what has 239 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: happened to commodity braces because of the war that Russia 240 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: is fighting in Ukraine. Isn't that going to be the 241 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: exact argument for more digging off coal and more allergy 242 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: projects and perhaps even more remaining of metals. Well, I 243 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: don't think building an economy off the back of a 244 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: dictator invading another country and hoping that somehow that will 245 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 1: continue is a good model, either for foreign affairs or 246 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: for or your domestic economic security. Like, we have to diversify. 247 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: Australia economy absolutely has to diversify. And I think if 248 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: there's one lesson that can be taken from this is 249 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: that it is not a good idea to be reliant 250 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: on fossil fuel imports from another country Like that is 251 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: the object lesson that comes out of the Russian invasion 252 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 1: of Ukraine. And this is where for Australia in particular, 253 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: we have an enormous opportunity to be energy independent and 254 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: to be selling the rest of the world our sun 255 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: and our wind. The prospects of direct undersea cables Singapore 256 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: or Indonesia, for example, where you generate the electricity from 257 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: on the mainland Australia are actively being discussed and funded. 258 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: At the moment, there is growing investment in grain hydrogen. 259 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 1: I mean, we are pretty blessed here in this country 260 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: with sun and wind and an advanced manufacturing capacity and 261 00:15:55,640 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: intellectual capacity. We can sell things to other countries than 262 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: coal and gas, and we know the sun and the 263 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: wind will always be framed. Multiple labor politicians use the 264 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: phrase as long as people want to buy our coal, 265 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: will sell it to them. During the election. That is 266 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: starkly different from your view. How can those two views 267 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 1: meet up? Do you anticipate lengthy, fierce battles on climate ahead, 268 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: what is your red line? Well, there's something that our 269 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 1: former prime minister used to say, which is that Australia 270 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: has got to sell its coal to other countries and 271 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 1: can't stop selling it because otherwise they'll buy it from 272 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: somewhere else and it won't be as good. And the 273 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: new prime minister, from the different side of politics has 274 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: started saying exactly the same things, started saying all Australia 275 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: needs to sell coal, and in fact some of his 276 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: ministers have said Australia will be still selling coal out 277 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: past the twenty fifties. This idea that if we don't 278 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: sell it to them, then someone else will. I call 279 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: that the drug dealers defense. It's like, if you don't 280 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: buy it from me, then you're going to get work 281 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: quality stuff from someone around the corner. So I'm actually 282 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: somehow performing a public service. Like coal wherever it is burnt, 283 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: whether it's burnt here, whether it's burnt overseas, harms Australia 284 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 1: and it harms the rest of the world. There is 285 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: no such thing as clean coal, and I think people 286 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 1: have seen through it, and some of the biggest public 287 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:24,479 Speaker 1: campaigns and on the ground mobilizations here have been against 288 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 1: big new coal mines in Australia. The Adane coal mine 289 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: that was here was the feature of the previous selection, 290 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 1: the one before this. There is widespread support to say 291 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:37,920 Speaker 1: stop opening up these coal mines. And I think people 292 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: just don't buy this idea anymore that Australia has got 293 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 1: to sell it to them because otherwise they'll get it 294 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 1: from somewhere else. I think Australia has such a large 295 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: share of the global thermal coal market that any shift 296 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 1: from Australia will have repercussions and ripples right around the world. 297 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: And if Australia stopped doing it, then I reckon it 298 00:17:57,600 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: wouldn't be that others would step in. It would send 299 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 1: a really clear signal to the rest of the world 300 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 1: that Cole's days were over. I think the second thing 301 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: that we probably need to put on the table front 302 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: and center is what is an economic diversification and support 303 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: and transition plan for coal and gas workers and communities. 304 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:18,919 Speaker 1: What does that look like? And that hasn't really been 305 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: thought through that well from governments in the past, and 306 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: that has created the space for scare campaigns. I think 307 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: part of what we've got to do in this parliament 308 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,680 Speaker 1: is to say we need a plan to support coal 309 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: and gas workers through the transition. Specifically, though, what is 310 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: your redline while you're in power and these discussions are 311 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: going on. Look, the Australian grains have a policy of 312 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: getting out of thermal coal by twenty thirty, both for 313 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 1: domestic and export use and metallurgical coal by twenty forty. 314 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 1: But what we're putting on the table at the moment 315 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: in this term of parliament is a compromise position. Let's 316 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 1: just stop opening up new coal and gas projects and 317 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: we can then have a discussion about how we get 318 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,880 Speaker 1: out of it, whether we haven't managed exit by twenty thirty, 319 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 1: whether the government's got some other idea. But what we're 320 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 1: putting on the table in all the negotiations will be 321 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: having with the government is stop opening up new projects. 322 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: That should be something that everyone can agree on. Now. 323 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: We weren't able to get their agreement to that during 324 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 1: the climate legislation and negotiations and that was disappointing, but 325 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,400 Speaker 1: that was round one, right. The next round will come 326 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 1: when the government introduces the regulations to explain how it's 327 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: going to cut pollution, and we'll be looking very closely 328 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:35,880 Speaker 1: to see whether that allows new coal and gas projects, because, 329 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: as I say, that is something that will need the 330 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,159 Speaker 1: support of the Senate where the Greens are in the 331 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:45,200 Speaker 1: balance of power. We're also going to push for our 332 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: environment laws to include what's called a climate trigger, which 333 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: is to say, when you give environmental assessment approval to 334 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 1: new projects at the moment, you don't even have to 335 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: take into account whether it's going to make climate change worse. 336 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 1: We want that to change. And the last thing we 337 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 1: will push for that we are saying very very strongly 338 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: to this new government is stopped giving subsidies to coal 339 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 1: and gas. There's about eleven billion dollars Australian of subsidies 340 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 1: per year at the federal level that go effectively to 341 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:16,199 Speaker 1: the coal and gas industries. So we're saving stop funding them, 342 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 1: put a climate trigger in our laws, stop opening up 343 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: new coal and gas mines. They're the positions that we 344 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 1: are putting on the table and that we are going 345 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: to fight tooth and nail for in this term of parliament. 346 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 1: Now in the elections, the Conservative Liberal Party, which might 347 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,919 Speaker 1: confuse some people listening to the podcast, but the Conservative 348 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 1: Liberal Party like some of its safest seats to climate 349 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:42,120 Speaker 1: positive candidates. It's being anti climate action now a dead 350 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 1: position in Australia. I think it's absolutely if not dead, 351 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: it's on life support. And I think people shouldn't underestimate 352 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: the significance of this. We saw Conservative seats switch to 353 00:20:55,160 --> 00:21:00,439 Speaker 1: candidates that have a better climate policy than the new 354 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 1: Labor government. But you saw Conservative seats prepared to vote 355 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: for a candidate that says we need a transition plan 356 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: out of coal and gas and I want you to 357 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: stop opening up coal and gas mines. And forty three 358 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: percent is far too weak. And we saw conservative seats 359 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: go to the grains as well, so it's not just 360 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: progressive labor seats that went to the grains, it was 361 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: conservative liberal seats that switched to the grains. For the 362 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: first time. You get rewarded in Australia politically now for 363 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 1: having a better policy on climate. I don't think the 364 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: penny's quite dropped with the new government yet, that there 365 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: is now space for them to go further and faster. 366 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: That was a fascinating conversation. Thanks Adam, Thanks very much. 367 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,680 Speaker 1: After the break, we'll hear from Senator David Pocock, one 368 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,879 Speaker 1: of the new crop of independent politicians Adam is talking about, 369 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 1: and whose journey from rugby to politics has made him 370 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:09,919 Speaker 1: a deciding vote in Australia's Upper House. Welcome back. Joining 371 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: me now is David Pocock, one of Australia's most celebrated 372 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: rugby players, who captained the Wallabies and played for the 373 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: team between two thousand and eight and twenty nineteen. In 374 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, David moved into politics and beat a 375 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 1: Conservative incumbent to become the first independent candidate to ever 376 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: win the Senate seat for the Australian Capital Territory, which 377 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:35,359 Speaker 1: includes Canberra. Alongside the Greens. His vote was crucial for 378 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: passing Australia's forty three percent emissions reduction target. David, Welcome 379 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 1: to zero. Thanks good to be with you. You've had 380 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 1: a fascinating career. You captain Australia's international rugby union team, 381 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 1: You've campaigned on social issues like marriage quality, and now 382 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 1: you're an independent senator in Australia's upper House with the 383 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,879 Speaker 1: deciding vote when it comes to climate legislation. Where did 384 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,640 Speaker 1: your climate journey begin? So? I grew up in Zimbabwe 385 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 1: and moved to Australia as a teenager and in high 386 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 1: school really enjoyed geography, so I started learning about climate change. 387 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,959 Speaker 1: It seemed like something we should be paying a bit 388 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: more attention to back then, and I guess that urgency 389 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 1: has just grown. And over the years, whilst I was 390 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,640 Speaker 1: playing rugby professionally, was involved in some community development work 391 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 1: back in Zimbabwe and talking to rural subsistence communities and 392 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 1: just hearing their concerns. About the changing climate and their 393 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: inability to really adapt. They simply don't have the funds 394 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 1: that wealthy countries have to actually adapt, and they've contributed 395 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:51,159 Speaker 1: almost nothing to the problem. That really heightened my interest 396 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: in it, and I guess really spurred my advocacy and 397 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: wanting to use whatever platform I had while I was 398 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 1: playing rugby to get more people talking about it, particularly 399 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: here in a We're a huge fossil fuel exporter and 400 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 1: probably no surprise, we've been a climate lagguard. We've we've 401 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 1: actually frustrated international talks. It's just it's not good enough 402 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 1: for Australia to be doing that. We have to actually 403 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: be part of the conversation, part of the solution to 404 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 1: this global challenge. As part of your urgency and climate 405 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,359 Speaker 1: you got arrested in twenty fourteen changing yourself to a 406 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,120 Speaker 1: coal digger. What was that like? You know, what made 407 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: you want to take that step? Like so many people, 408 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: I'd been involved in a bunch of campaigns, marches, protests, 409 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:39,920 Speaker 1: writing letters, petitions, and then there was this this coal 410 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: mine that was one in one of Australia's best agricultural areas, 411 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 1: and two within that area in the middle of a 412 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 1: critically endangered ecosystem made absolutely no sense to me in 413 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 1: terms of the environmental impact, the impact on farmers, and 414 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: obviously the climate impact of opening up a brand new 415 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,959 Speaker 1: coal mine. Got to know one of the farmers who 416 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,399 Speaker 1: now lives next door to this big coal mine, and 417 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: having grown up on a farming family, I could sympathize 418 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 1: and see just how helpless and unrepresented you feel. But 419 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 1: then just decided that I needed to actually make that 420 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 1: stand alongside him and hundreds of other people who were 421 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 1: arrested on that mine site. And the mine went ahead, 422 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 1: but a very similar project a few years later didn't 423 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 1: go ahead. So whilst unsuccessful, I think it added to 424 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 1: the conversation around opening up new coal mines given all 425 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 1: we know about climate change. Yeah, and then why did 426 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: you finally decide to make this jump from being a 427 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 1: political activist to a politician? After Rugby, I was involved 428 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: in an agriculture and conservation project in zimbab We spend 429 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:56,120 Speaker 1: most of last year there and halfway through the year 430 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 1: was approached by a community group here in Canberra where 431 00:25:59,920 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 1: I live, saying we think that there is a pathway 432 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: for an independent to represent the ACT with the Australian 433 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: Capital Territory in the Federal Parliament. If we can get 434 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,679 Speaker 1: the right candidate. We've been having all these kitchen table conversations. 435 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: Your name keeps coming up. Would you consider it? And 436 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 1: initially didn't think it was for me, But the more, 437 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 1: you know, the more I thought about it, and what 438 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 1: I thought this is, this is an amazing opportunity to 439 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,919 Speaker 1: potentially represent our community. I love on all these issues 440 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: that are important to me, are important to the people 441 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,400 Speaker 1: that i'd be representing. But we're not seeing the kind 442 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:40,400 Speaker 1: of ambition that we need. We're not seeing politicians actually 443 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 1: deal with these big challenges we face in a way 444 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,159 Speaker 1: that turns them into opportunities for all of us. So 445 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: I thought, well, if I don't do this, I'll probably 446 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 1: regret it. I don't want to sit around after the 447 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 1: election on a few years time thinking what could have happened, 448 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: And so I put my hand up, and having never 449 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 1: been part of a political party or being formally involved 450 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:06,400 Speaker 1: in politics, it was. It was a wild ride, really 451 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: enjoyable and energizing just seeing the amount of community support 452 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: and building a campaign that was really crowdsourcing, a policy 453 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: platform that resonated with people and we've seen across the 454 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: country a record number of independents voted into the Low 455 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: House and then also the Senate. Now let's just sit 456 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 1: with that for a moment, because it is hard. Many 457 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 1: countries have two major political parties. That's the case here 458 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 1: in the UK where I live. You have the Conservative 459 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: Party and you have the Labor Party. That's the case 460 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 1: in the US, which is essentially a two party system 461 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: with the Democrats and the Republicans. And that was the 462 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 1: case in Australia for a long time. Of course, there 463 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 1: were other parties, but those two parties, the Liberal and 464 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:57,160 Speaker 1: National Coalition and Labor were really the two major forces. 465 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: What happened in the last few years, you think that's 466 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: changed Australia's landscape so drastically, allowing independence to make it 467 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: in the parliament. I think that a number of factors. One, 468 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 1: just the underlying dissatisfaction with politics as usual, and then 469 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 1: on top of that, having it in the last parliament, 470 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: a few independents who are actually talking about the issues 471 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 1: that people are concerned about, talking about more ambitious climate action, 472 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,920 Speaker 1: talking about integrity in politics. And then a number of 473 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: candidates decided to actually run and there was a group 474 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,880 Speaker 1: set up to actually help fundraise for these independent candidates. 475 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,119 Speaker 1: The group David is talking about is Climate two hundred, 476 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 1: a crowdfunded organization that raised millions of dollars to support 477 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: the campaigns of twenty three candidates running as independents or 478 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: for minor parties in this year's election. We see money 479 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 1: in politics, the sad realities that you need money to 480 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 1: actually be able to win, to run a good campaign, 481 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 1: and for the first time that wasn't a problem for 482 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: many of these independent candidates. They were well resourced, they 483 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: were talking about things that that mattered, and on the 484 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: back of that, we saw tens of thousands of Australians 485 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: who hadn't previously got involved in politics volunteering campaigning. You know, 486 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: here in Canaerra, a city of four hundred and twenty 487 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: thousand people, I had over two thousand, two hundred volunteers. 488 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: It was really energizing and I think you left everyone 489 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,479 Speaker 1: feeling a little bit more hopeful about the future. Now, 490 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: the bill enshrines emissions reductions in law, which is forty 491 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 1: three percent from two thousand five levels by twenty thirty. 492 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: What do you see as the priority legislation to pass 493 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: to ensure Australia meets this target. Well, it's it's historic 494 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 1: in Australia just to actually legislate the target. Having forty 495 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 1: three percent by twenty thirty and metzera by twenty fifty 496 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,480 Speaker 1: in law is a step four. But this is nothing 497 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 1: to sit around patting ourselves on the back about, and 498 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: even the business community here in Australia has been pushing 499 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: fifty by twenty thirty. So clearly we have to ensure 500 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: that this forty three is just a starting point. It's 501 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 1: largely symbolic, and now we've got to get on with 502 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: the business of transforming our entire economy, working on the 503 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: generation side of things and then beginning to work on 504 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 1: the demand side, working with households to actually ensure that 505 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 1: they can reap the significant benefits of electrifying their households. 506 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: You know, that's the challenge. This has never been done before, 507 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 1: but that's the opportunity. So for me, it's about ensuring 508 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 1: that we have a target locked in. I'd like to 509 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 1: see that ramp up over time, but then to actually 510 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 1: be focusing on the integrity of it, So the integrity 511 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: of the offsets that we're allowing companies to use for 512 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: they're hard to abate emissions. The focus on communities that 513 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: for generations have had jobs in fossil fuels. We need 514 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 1: to be investing in those areas, ensuring that those communities 515 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 1: have secure, well paid jobs into the future. Australia is 516 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 1: the third largest export or fossil fields call gas are 517 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: major parts of the economy, and fossil fields continue to 518 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 1: make the country a vast amount of money. How do 519 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 1: you ensure that this continued prosperity can happen while you 520 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: move away from the extraction and export of coal and gas. 521 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: You know, Australia is the developed country that stands to 522 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: lose the most from climate and action. We're seeing huge 523 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 1: warming already and we're seeing the effects of that. But 524 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 1: given our renewable resources, we also potentially stand to gain 525 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 1: the most from actually having the political courage to act 526 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 1: and to act decisively and to become a renewable superpower. 527 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: We've got huge deposits of things like lithium, which we 528 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 1: need for batteries, and we've got huge renewable resources that 529 00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 1: we could potentially be exporting to our our neighbors. All 530 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: of these take time to develop, so we've got to 531 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: get cracking. Do you support the calls to end all 532 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 1: fossil fuel projects and do you believe there's any chance 533 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: that the incumbent labor government will ever agree to such 534 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: a proposal. Well, if you're gonna listen to scientists, we 535 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: can't have any new call and gas projects, that's clear. 536 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: IPCC was so clear about that. I support that. We 537 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 1: simply cannot afford in the long term to be opening 538 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 1: up new reserves of fossil fuels. The challenge for Australia 539 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 1: is to be building these industries for the future at 540 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 1: the same time as we're phasing out fossil fuels. Politically, 541 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: to be blunt, no, I can't see the government going 542 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 1: for it in the current political climate. But I think societals, 543 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 1: societal attitudes towards climate change, towards the social license that 544 00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 1: fossil fuel companies have is changing so fast. Hopefully it'll 545 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 1: be possible very soon. So now, I don't know if 546 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 1: anybody has made this comparison before, but your vote in 547 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: the Senate is like your mansion's vote in the US Senate. 548 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: You'll be deciding whether to let a legislation go through 549 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: or not. Many other times, your mansion, of course, had 550 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 1: to play both sides and had to make compromises on 551 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: the climate side, you could be playing the opposite role 552 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: of pushing it even higher and higher in ambition. Is 553 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: that a fair comparison. So in the Australian Senate at 554 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 1: the moment, there's probably three people that the Government could 555 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: get a vote from terms of climate. So yeah, there's 556 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,480 Speaker 1: there's real opportunity there to actually be pushing the ambition 557 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: and to be shaping policy to ensure that it is 558 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 1: working for everyday Australians, that climate action is actually starting 559 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: to address some of the cost of living issues that 560 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 1: we're seeing. The thing I said to people in Canberra 561 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: during the election campaign was my commitment to people is 562 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 1: on every piece of legislation, I'm going to hold it 563 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: up and say how does it affect the people of 564 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 1: the Australian Capital territory that I represent, How does this 565 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 1: square with the kind of future that we want to create, 566 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 1: and then use whatever power I have on the cross 567 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,919 Speaker 1: bench with that potential balance of power vote to ramp 568 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:22,279 Speaker 1: up the ambition and to suggest amendments that make it better, 569 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,759 Speaker 1: that improve the legislation coming through the Center. At the 570 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 1: last COP conference which was held here in the UK 571 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:33,239 Speaker 1: in Glasgow in twenty twenty one, Australia was awarded the 572 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: Colossal Fossil Award for its ongoing support for fossil fields. 573 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 1: As we approach a COP in November, which will be 574 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: in Egypt this year, where do you think this climate 575 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 1: believes Australia. I was at COP in Glasgow and as 576 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,400 Speaker 1: an Australian it was embarrassing to see the way we 577 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 1: were acting on the world stage. Even our Australian pavilion, 578 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 1: we had a gas company front and center of our display. 579 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 1: So I think this legislation is an announcement that we're 580 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,279 Speaker 1: back at the table. We're there to be constructive. I 581 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: expect there'll be a big focus on support for developing 582 00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 1: countries given it in Africa, and that's what Australia needs 583 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: to be doing here in the Pacific. We have to 584 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,359 Speaker 1: be stepping up our engagement and our support of our 585 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 1: Pacific neighbors to deal with what is for them and 586 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: many of them in existential threat. And so I don't 587 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: I don't think forty does that, but it's it's certainly 588 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 1: signals to the world that we're no longer hopefully not 589 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:44,680 Speaker 1: going to the obstructionist and try and water down future agreements. David, 590 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:46,840 Speaker 1: thanks for joining me so yes, thanks for having me. 591 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 1: Given Australia status as one of the largest exporters of 592 00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 1: fossil fields. What happens there affects the world as it 593 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 1: impacts have piled on. It's forced to change in the 594 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 1: politics of the country, with independence becoming a force to 595 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:10,320 Speaker 1: reckon with. But it couldn't have happened without concerted effort 596 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:14,800 Speaker 1: of those organizing around a cause. Thanks so much for 597 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,399 Speaker 1: listening to Zero. If you like the show, please rate, 598 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 1: review and subscribe, Tell a friend or tell an undecided voter. 599 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 1: If you've got a suggestion for a guest or topic 600 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: or something you just want us to look into, get 601 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,320 Speaker 1: in touch at zeropod at Bloomberg dot net. Zero's producer 602 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:35,359 Speaker 1: is Oscar Boyd and senior producer is Christine driscoll. Our 603 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 1: theme music is composed by Wonderlely. Many people help make 604 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 1: the show a success this week thanks to my Bloomberg 605 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 1: News colleague in Australia, Ben Wescott, who cannot be stopped 606 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 1: when he has a school I'm Akshatrati back next week.