1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: So we often say that any industry, any enterprise past 2 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: a certain threshold of success, becomes ripe for conspiracies. And 3 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,440 Speaker 1: it should be absolutely no surprise that the world of 4 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:23,479 Speaker 1: sports is no different. Sports are a huge, huge thing 5 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: in almost every single part of the world. Uh you 6 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 1: know they're they're probably scientists and staff who have active 7 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 1: sports lives in Antarctica and pursue those hobbies. This was 8 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 1: such a big topic that we made it a two parter. 9 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: Do you remember this? Oh? I do? I remember talking 10 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: with Brian Tweet like it happened yesterday, even though it 11 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: was in September. But seriously, it was a great conversation. 12 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: It really illuminated for me personally the concept that in 13 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: any competition, any competition, no matter how big or small, 14 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: there is a regular market for that competition where you 15 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:10,400 Speaker 1: can you know, market it, you can sell tickets to it, 16 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: and run things above board. There's a gray market, which 17 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 1: this I would say, it's a gray market where it's 18 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:20,039 Speaker 1: like legal gambling and that kind of world like Vegas, 19 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: Atlantic City. Then there's the black market, which is the 20 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: gambling that happens underneath the table or is kind of 21 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: operating in the shadows, even on the field. Yes, so 22 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 1: uh tune in for this one and then stay tuned 23 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 1: for part two of this classic series. From UFOs to 24 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is riddled with unexplained events. 25 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: You can turn back now or learn this stuff they 26 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: don't gant you to know. Hello, welcome back to the show. 27 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They call 28 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: me Ben, and you are you, and this is stuff 29 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: they don't want you to know. We're doing something a 30 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:13,239 Speaker 1: little bit different today. Ben the bookie Bowling, Noel numbers Brown, 31 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:17,079 Speaker 1: Matt is bad at Math, Frederick, Matt Mad Money. Frederick. 32 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: We want to introduce you to a very special guest 33 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 1: in this episode. This is a two part episode about 34 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:31,239 Speaker 1: sports fixing. And as we are not, uh, despite our 35 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 1: new monikers, as we are not ourselves experts on sports fixing. No. 36 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: I haven't done much gambling at all. I've been to 37 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: a casino two times. I watched a football game on 38 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: TV once. Oh it was a date and I was 39 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: trying to get in good with this gal and she 40 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 1: was a huge Stanford fan. And I tell you, I 41 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: sat through that whole game like a champ. And I 42 00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: almost think maybe I understand how football works pretty timon. Well, 43 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 1: we've received questions for years from you and listeners just 44 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 1: like you who have asked us to cover something like 45 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 1: FIFA or something like even corruption in sumo wrestling. Uh 46 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:15,959 Speaker 1: So we were fortunate enough to get an interview with 47 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: one of the world's pre eminent experts on sports fixing, 48 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: Mr Brian Tooey. Yeah, Brian has written extensively on the subjects. 49 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: He has three books a Season in the Abyss, The 50 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: Fixes In and Larceny Games, all of which dive deep 51 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: into the world of bookmaking, organized crime, where the money 52 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: goes in these scenarios. And of course the question is 53 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: what we're seeing legitimate? Are these games having their outcomes 54 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: manipulated by one of several possible forces. So we'll dive 55 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: into the first part of the interview where we get 56 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: we get a deeper understanding of how this sort of 57 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: system would work, a look at the history of corruption 58 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: in sports, and information about what inspired Brian to again 59 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: these investigations. Grant, could you tell the audience and us 60 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: what inspired you to become the world's leading expert on 61 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 1: corruption in sports? Well, it really took off when I 62 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: realized nobody else seemed to want to do this job. 63 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I was really just a fan of professional 64 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: sports for a long time, growing up as a kid, 65 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 1: you know, a hockey fan to baseball fans, football fan, 66 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: and what have you. But as I got older and 67 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 1: perhaps a little wiser, I started noticing what I felt 68 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,479 Speaker 1: were almost like too many coincidences that were occurring within 69 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 1: these games, within these sports that always seemed to benefit 70 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: the league. And I came to realize, when the leagues 71 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,600 Speaker 1: have the ability to really control everything that surrounds the games, 72 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: what prevented them from controlling what happens within the games? 73 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 1: And once I kind of asked the question of myself 74 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: and started doing a little research, it kind of led 75 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: me down this path to where I am today. It's 76 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 1: interesting that you mentioned the way the league figures into 77 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: all of this, because obviously there is a whole lot 78 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: of profits to be made in and around professional sports, 79 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: whether it's the legal end of it, merchandizing ticket sales, 80 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 1: TV deals, things like that. We're talking billions and billions 81 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: of dollars. But when you really segment it out and 82 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: you talk about just the money that can be made 83 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 1: out of sports betting, how is all of this generated 84 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:40,280 Speaker 1: and what kind of figures are we talking here. Well, 85 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: the professional leagues, the four main leagues, the NFL, Major 86 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: League Baseball, the NHL, in the NBA make a combined 87 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 1: about billion dollars a year in revenue. And as for 88 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: the sports gambling end of things, the problem is is 89 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: nobody really knows because the sports gambling done in the 90 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 1: United States today is done illegally and much of that 91 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 1: money is controlled by organized crime. The state in Nevada, 92 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: which is the only place where you can legally bet 93 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: on single games and all of these sports says they 94 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:13,840 Speaker 1: come for about two to three percent of all the 95 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: sports gambly done in the nation and they took in 96 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 1: about what was it, I think about three or four 97 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 1: billion dollars on sports betting, which means if you extrapolate 98 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 1: that number, it means that perhaps as much as three 99 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 1: to four hundred billion dollars is being waged in the 100 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: United States today illegally, but nobody really knows. Smokes a 101 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: lot of money is yeah, that's so much money. So 102 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: these guys that are running the books on these in 103 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: these illegal gambling operations, how do they actually make money 104 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: on this operation? And moreover, I mean what's the structure 105 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,719 Speaker 1: of this illegal operation? Like from you know, me being 106 00:06:57,760 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: a Joe on the street that wants to you know, 107 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: play about in a sports game, how do I go 108 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,799 Speaker 1: from point A to point bs you making or losing 109 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of money. Well that's the scary part 110 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: in a way, is most gamblers are recreational gamblers. You know, 111 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: their average Joe is or James, and they want to 112 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 1: bet twenty bucks or fifty bucks on the game this 113 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: weekend or what have you, and they don't realize that 114 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: many times when they do bet that twenty or fifty 115 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: dollars or a hundred dollars or whatever, they can afford 116 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: to lose or sometimes can't afford to lose whatever they're betting. 117 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: Most off of those small amounts are being bet with 118 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: local bookies, and they might be guys, people they know, 119 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 1: people they don't really well know. But the problem is 120 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: is even those small bets really get funneled into organized crime, 121 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: even if they're kind of gambling with somebody they know 122 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: or think they know. Because what happens is is local 123 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: bookies often get wagers on local teams. Like I live 124 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: in Wisconsin. So let's say in this example, most of 125 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: the bookies that I perhaps would deal with would take 126 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: a lot of bets on the Green Bay Packers in 127 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: the NFL, because a lot of people bet with their hearts, 128 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: they've bet on the home team, they bet on the 129 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: games they're gonna watch. And in Wisconsin, you watch the 130 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: Green Bay Packers or you don't watch television really today. 131 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: So the local bookies get overwhelmed with basically Green Bay 132 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: Packer money, and that's not good for them because what 133 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: most bookies want is a fifty fifty split on the game. 134 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: They want bet on the Packers. They want, say, bet 135 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: on the Bears, and they collect a ten percent on 136 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: the losers. So you have to bet eleven dollars to 137 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: win ten dollars. And that's how the bookies make their money. 138 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:37,559 Speaker 1: And that's the big right is that like the concept 139 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: of the big sort of like a premium that you 140 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: have the bigger ish there take their rake however you 141 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 1: want to put it. Yeah. So, but what happens is 142 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:46,959 Speaker 1: these local bookies in this case again get overwhelmed with 143 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: the money bet on the Packers. So what they want 144 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: to do is basically what they call layoff the money 145 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: and bet with other bookies, perhaps like in Chicago, if 146 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: the Packers are playing the Bears, because the Bear bookies 147 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:00,319 Speaker 1: are gonna have too much money on the Bears, and 148 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:04,199 Speaker 1: so they kind of swap wagers to kind of alleviate 149 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: their you know, exposure on these games. And so what 150 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: happens is little bookies bet with slightly bigger bookies. Bigger 151 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: bookies bet with even bigger bookies, and this money almost 152 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 1: actually funnels upwards, and sitting at the top of this 153 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: pyramid is organized crime, who have controlled illegal sports gambling 154 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,199 Speaker 1: for probably a hundred years. It's one of those things 155 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: where even though you're betting with somebody you may know 156 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: and just somebody think is local, some guy at the bar, 157 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: that money gets funneled upwards to people who are running 158 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: organized crime. And then people say, well, you know, so 159 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 1: what it's, you know, a harmless crime, it's a victimless crime. 160 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:41,959 Speaker 1: But the fact is that money that feeds organized crimes 161 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: then goes to prostitution, that goes to loan sharking, and 162 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 1: it goes to all the other bad things that organized 163 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: crime still does today. And just to be specific for 164 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: our audience members who may not be as aware of 165 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,959 Speaker 1: the nuts and bolts of this of the betting process. 166 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: What is the point spread and why does it matter so? Well? 167 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: The point spread really only matters in mainly in the 168 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: NFL and the NBA or college basketball and college football 169 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:12,959 Speaker 1: because too often games are almost lopsided. And this really 170 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: started way back about a hundred years or so, maybe 171 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: in twenties or thirties, where bookies wanted to take bets 172 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: on games, on all games that are being played, but 173 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 1: in certain instances, you know, people are almost certain that, 174 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: for example, the Packers are going to beat the Bears, 175 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: you know, almost no matter what happens, that are almost 176 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 1: certain Packers are going to beat the Bears, and the 177 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:34,079 Speaker 1: odds that they would have to set on the game 178 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: would be so high that nobody want to bet on 179 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: the Packers because there return on their money would be 180 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: so low. And at the same time, the bookies who 181 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: wouldn't want to necessarily give huge odds on the Bears 182 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 1: to win because then if that miracles miracle did happen, 183 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: so they might have to lay out too much money 184 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: to those people who took the long shot. So over 185 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: time they developed what's called the point spread, and the 186 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 1: point spread basically kind of even the playing field, where 187 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 1: oftentimes at football, like if they gain Packers are playing 188 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: the Bears, they might say the Packers are minus seven, 189 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: which means that is, you have to subtract seven points 190 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: from the Packers at the end of the game and 191 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: or add seven points to the Bears total, and that's 192 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 1: what the final score wants up being in the betting circles. 193 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: So if the Packers won ten, you subtract seven, which 194 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 1: means the Packers really only scored seventeen points. The Bears 195 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 1: would get seven points. But yet four to ten differences 196 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,200 Speaker 1: four team points, so it doesn't really come into play 197 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: for the points bread And if you bet the Packers, 198 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 1: you won. If you bet the Bears in this example, 199 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,559 Speaker 1: you would lose. So it's a little convoluted concept. Yeah, 200 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: but that's a perfect explanation, absolutely, And I know folks 201 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 1: are probably eager for us to get into the whole 202 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: fixing aspect of it, But I do have one more 203 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 1: question about the rules and just sort of the you know, 204 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,559 Speaker 1: structure for this betting scenario. Um. I know that in 205 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: your book Larceny Games, when you're talking about sort of 206 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,319 Speaker 1: the history of betting and gambling on sports and how 207 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: at its heart it it is a simple prospect of 208 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: making a fifty fifty bat where you're saying, like, I 209 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:08,199 Speaker 1: think it's gonna be this one, and I'm putting all 210 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: my eggs in that basket and I'm either gonna win 211 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: or I'm gonna lose. But at the end of the day, 212 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 1: that's not enough to attract enough people to continuously, you know, 213 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: keep people in business who want to you know, make 214 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: money on this betting. So the bookies came up with 215 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: this idea of odds and they basically created it, and 216 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 1: it's a little bit lopsided, I think from the way 217 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 1: I understanding it, where I'm sure there are stats that 218 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:32,439 Speaker 1: go into determining these odds, but at the end of 219 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 1: the day, it's sort of like, well, you know, you 220 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 1: get more of a return on your money if you 221 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:38,959 Speaker 1: maybe bet on the underdog and they win. But I 222 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: just wanted a little bit of clarification on how you 223 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: see odds playing into this and whether or not they 224 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 1: are based on stats or if it's just kind of 225 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 1: a construct in something that these bookies sort of came 226 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: up with too, you know, sweeten the pot. I guess, well, 227 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,319 Speaker 1: it's interesting because really odds and even the point spread 228 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 1: are make believe numbers, you know, they don't necessarily reflect 229 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: the reality of the game or like a box match 230 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 1: or horse race, there really artificial numbers. And the point 231 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 1: spread is really almost based from what I understand from 232 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 1: talking to some of these guys who set the point spreads, 233 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: is based on their perception of the public perception of 234 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: the game that's about to be played. So it's funny 235 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,679 Speaker 1: the guys who do like the NFL point spreads, they 236 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: can almost do them just off the top of the 237 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 1: heads without looking at computers or statistics or that sort 238 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: of things. They just know a lot of betters like 239 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: certain teams, they like certain matchups, and they just kind 240 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 1: of assumed that certain games are going to go a 241 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 1: certain way. So the guys were setting the point spreads 242 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: and creating the odds a lot of times can just 243 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: wing it because it's based off the perception of the 244 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 1: public's perception and not really the bookie's perception of what's 245 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: going to happen in the game. So if they point 246 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: set the point spread, like again in the pack of 247 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 1: Bearer game at minus seven, it doesn't mean that the 248 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: book he really thinks the packers are gonna win seventeen. 249 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 1: They may think the Packers are gonna win thirty five 250 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 1: to nothing, but they think that's what the public thinks 251 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: is that the game might be like seventeen matchup. So 252 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: that's how they create that point spread. And it's interesting 253 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: because now we start to see these frames, these interlocking 254 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: frames of perception that play a powerful role, almost as 255 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: powerful as the actual athletes in the game. And and 256 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: this brings us to a question that I was I 257 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: was dying to ask after we had checked out Larceny 258 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: Games Season and the abyss UH and the fixes in UH. 259 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: We wanted to ask you, what, in your opinion, are 260 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: the easiest and most difficult sports to fix? We know. 261 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: The unfortunate thing is I get asked a lot like 262 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: what's the least corrup sport? And unfortunately I can't name one, 263 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: because you really, if you do some digging around, you 264 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: will realize almost every professional sport has been negatively influenced 265 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: by some sort of corruption. I mean, you could go soccer, cricket, tennis, rugby, baseball, football, boxing, hockey, 266 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: the UFC hors ary scene. I mean, the list goes 267 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: on and on, and you can find corruption in terms 268 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: of altering the outcomes of certain events. In all of 269 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: those things, you can even find it. Little League Baseball, 270 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: we've seen it where you know, the Chicago team from 271 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: the Little League World Series a couple of years ago 272 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: was deemed illegal. Where I think a New York team 273 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 1: a few years ago ahead a pitcher who was fourteen 274 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: and he should have only been twelve, and they lied 275 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: about his age. I mean, it's unfortunately everywhere. But in 276 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 1: terms of your direct question, I think the easiest sports 277 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 1: to manipulate from a fixing angle for betting purposes, one 278 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: is soccer because it's happening all over the globe and 279 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: been happening for a very long time, and they can't 280 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 1: or maybe they don't, but they can't seem to stop it. 281 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: But in America, I think the two the biggest ones 282 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: to be football and basketball because of that point spread 283 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: and the idea of the point spread. And I can 284 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: explain why is basically because what people can do is 285 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: they can get athletes to what they call shaved points. 286 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 1: Where again, if you go back to that seven point 287 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: point spread in that Bear Packer, the fictional Bear Packer game, 288 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: I means you could approach the players or a player 289 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: from the Packers and say, hey, look, you can still 290 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: win the game. You can still beat the Bears. That's fine, 291 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: just don't cover that point spread. Instead of winning by 292 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 1: more than seven, just win by like three points, and 293 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: therefore I can bet the Bears. You can still win 294 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: your game. But because the Bears are getting seven points 295 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: and they only lost by three in the betting parlance, 296 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 1: they won the game by four. So that's the tricky thing. 297 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: And you can do it a lot, and I think 298 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: it occurs a lot, especially at the college level in 299 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: basket ball and football, because of these point spreads where 300 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 1: a team can still win but yet not covered a 301 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: point spread, and that makes it really hard to uncover 302 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: who really was giving a percent out there and who 303 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,639 Speaker 1: maybe was doing something a little illegal. That's my question. 304 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 1: Isn't it really difficult to do? It seems like such 305 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 1: a precise thing to influence the outcome of a game 306 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 1: just by a certain number of points based on what 307 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: you do, and not have it be completely transparent to 308 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:29,120 Speaker 1: anybody watching saying, oh, that guy totally took a dive there. 309 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: He screwed up that play. It was clearly on purpose, Like, 310 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 1: how do these It seems like they're a whole another 311 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:36,239 Speaker 1: level of skill required to be able to do this 312 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 1: convincingly gets some funny. He said it like Joan Amoth 313 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: back in the late sixties was accused of throwing a 314 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: couple of football games because I think twice in the 315 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 1: season he threw with like five interceptions within a single game, 316 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: and he kind of got fingered for potentially throwing those games. 317 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: And Joe name was, when approached and asked about he said, look, 318 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: because I wouldn't be dumb enough to throw five interceptions 319 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: in the game. I fixed. What I would do is 320 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: I would throw the ball slightly out of the reach 321 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 1: of the wide receiver or I, you know, mishandle a snap, 322 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:10,640 Speaker 1: or I would you just do something small that would 323 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: be imperceptible, and that's how it fixed the game. I 324 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: wouldn't make it obvious like that, which I always found 325 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: funny because that means obviously Joe Namith kind of thought 326 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:20,919 Speaker 1: about it and how we would fix the game if 327 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 1: need be, But apparently he claimed he didn't do it 328 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 1: because he would have made it that obvious. And I mean, 329 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,920 Speaker 1: there's a guy by the name of Lefty Rosenthal. He's 330 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: an old, old guy. He um the movie Casino was 331 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: actually based on Lefty Rosenthal. He's a real guy in 332 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: the movie. It's played by Roberts de Niro's name is 333 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 1: like Ace Rothstein or something like that, but that's really 334 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: left the Rosenthal. Left Rosenthal was known to fix games, 335 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 1: and he would actually have college kids college basketball players 336 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:52,400 Speaker 1: practice missing layups so they looked more realistic when they 337 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,639 Speaker 1: did it. He was even known to actually supposedly he 338 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: gave food poisoning to an entire football team that came 339 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: into town to play nor Western University, and he invited 340 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: the other team out for dinner and gave him all 341 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 1: food poisoning at a restaurant he was familiar with to 342 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: make sure he wanted his bet. So, I mean, there's 343 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 1: there's there's various ways to do this, but yeah, I 344 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 1: mean I think it wouldn't be necessarily blatantly obvious, although 345 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:20,199 Speaker 1: sometimes it very well could be. And yet, you know, 346 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: how do you finger somebody for it, because it could 347 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 1: just be somebody's having a bad game and off day. 348 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 1: But proved that he did it on purpose, that's a 349 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,680 Speaker 1: whole different thing. Yeah, that sounds like it could quickly 350 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 1: go into some subjective murky territory there. It's very it's 351 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:41,120 Speaker 1: very interesting that you bring up the concept of college 352 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 1: athletes because, as we know, that's a continuing controversy here 353 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 1: in the States. Uh, these kids, really, these students are 354 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: in a surprisingly vulnerable position, and that led us to 355 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: to ask, not just in the realm of college sports, 356 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: by in the realm of professional sports, how do some 357 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: athletes become compromised to the point that they're willing to 358 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 1: throw a game or to shave some points? And by 359 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:12,880 Speaker 1: that we mean, you know, not the ones who are 360 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:18,119 Speaker 1: who get food poisoning, which is diabolical, um, but but 361 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 1: the you know, the ones who purposefully participate in this 362 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 1: kind of uh, this kind of corruption. Well, did you 363 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: guys happen to see that movie that just came out 364 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:33,400 Speaker 1: called Suicide Squad? Yes? I actually did see it. Yes, Okay, 365 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 1: Well there's a scene in there where um, Viola Davis, 366 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: who's the head of the Suicide Squad, is asked, well, 367 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,400 Speaker 1: how do you get all these bad guys to basically 368 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: do what you wanted to do? And herr responsive simple, 369 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 1: she said, Well, everybody has a weakness, and I exploit 370 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 1: that weakness. And I think that's exactly what can happen 371 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: with athletes and with coaches and with referees. I think 372 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 1: a lot of sports fans almost make it disconnect and 373 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,879 Speaker 1: almost forget that these are people, and these are people 374 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: who are like you and me, people who can have problems, 375 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 1: people who can have gambling problems, who can have drug problems, 376 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: who want to use performance enhancing drugs, which is another 377 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 1: sort of drug problem. Who have women problems, We have 378 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:17,400 Speaker 1: men problems, We have all sorts of weaknesses, you know, greed. 379 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a very real thing for everybody to 380 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 1: have issues with this, with these things. And I think 381 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: smart people and we've seen again if you look at 382 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: soccer around the world, they've found that those weaknesses within 383 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,880 Speaker 1: the players, within the coaches, within the referees, and then 384 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 1: exploit them. And that's all it takes, is it takes 385 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:38,439 Speaker 1: a simple failing. I mean, I think if you go 386 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,719 Speaker 1: with college especially and I think college is where really 387 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: people should be looking, especially United States, with the sort 388 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: of corruption when you're not paying the college athletes. And 389 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:50,880 Speaker 1: I really don't necessarily agree that you should pay them, 390 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: but when you don't pay them and then football player 391 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 1: walks out into a stadium, he's surrounded by a hundred 392 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: thousand fans, it's being broadcast to three or four million 393 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 1: people at home. His co which is the highest paid 394 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 1: state employee, making three to five million dollars a year. 395 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 1: There's people in the stands wearing this kid's jersey and 396 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: get this kid getting zero dollars. And then somebody approaches 397 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: and says, hey, look, I'll give you ten thousand dollars. 398 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 1: Just slightly underperform, shave a few points, and make sure 399 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,680 Speaker 1: this game goes my way. Oh why would a kid 400 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,400 Speaker 1: not accept that money. It's a very easy offer to make, 401 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: I mean, and I think it's a very easy offer 402 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,479 Speaker 1: to accept. Yeah, that same thing occurred to me earlier, 403 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 1: like where you know, there are kids getting in trouble 404 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,159 Speaker 1: for selling autographs, for example, and it's sort of this 405 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,199 Speaker 1: attitude of well, where's mine? You know, I want some 406 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: like everyone else is getting paid, and I mean, I'm 407 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 1: not like, especially if if you're a kid who maybe 408 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: had went into like college basketball with dreams of making 409 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: the NBA. And the fact of the matter is, it's 410 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 1: easier to be elected to Congress than it is to 411 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 1: make the National Basketball Association. To the player, there's more 412 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,679 Speaker 1: members of Congress under our NBA players. And yet if 413 00:22:57,720 --> 00:22:59,439 Speaker 1: you went to college with that hope and dream and 414 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 1: then you know, your junior year realized that dream is 415 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,199 Speaker 1: not gonna happen because I'm just not there good. And 416 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: yet I still gotten another year of college eligibility. And 417 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 1: again somebody comes along and says, and it doesn't have 418 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: to be that much money. I think I could have, 419 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: you know, fix the college basketball game with the money 420 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 1: I have in my bank accounting bean writer, don't make 421 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,920 Speaker 1: a lot of money. I think you know, you could 422 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:24,159 Speaker 1: approach the kids and make them generous, seemingly generous offers 423 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: that they would go for, because again, when everybody else 424 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 1: is out there making money, I think they assumed that 425 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 1: they should be too, So you think they're almost targeted. 426 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:33,920 Speaker 1: Whereas someone that would be trying to get them to 427 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: enter into this would see what you're describing, like, oh, 428 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: they haven't really been performing incredibly well, they're almost done 429 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,399 Speaker 1: with school. This would be an easy mark for you know, 430 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: getting what I want out of this. I think you 431 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: can do either way. I mean, I've seen in some 432 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 1: of the older FBI files I have related to, you know, 433 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 1: attempting to fix games where it was just a basic, 434 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,159 Speaker 1: led out, direct approach like hey kid, you want to 435 00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: fix a game for me? And then you know, I've 436 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: we've seen in you know, around again, especially in soccer. 437 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 1: Soccer is so incredibly corrupt, but we've seen where there 438 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 1: are really organized crime organizations I guess for lack of 439 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: better terms, that literally go out and try to target 440 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,439 Speaker 1: individuals to get them to fix soccer matches. And so 441 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 1: I wouldn't be surprised if there's a similar organization within 442 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 1: the High States that may be doing the very same 443 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 1: thing within n C double A basketball or football and 444 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:30,640 Speaker 1: just looking for weaknesses within certain programs and certain players 445 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:32,639 Speaker 1: and targeting them and trying to get them to do 446 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,360 Speaker 1: what they wanted to do. Because again, when there's perhaps 447 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: three to four hundred billion dollars being wagered and no 448 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 1: one there's no oversight over it, nobody's watching over it, 449 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 1: there's a lot of room to fudge figures and make 450 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 1: some easy money if no one's gonna, you know, come 451 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: after you for doing it. And you know, maybe this 452 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:53,959 Speaker 1: is the most frightening thing here. Our show examines a 453 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 1: lot of allegations, a lot of theories, and a lot 454 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 1: of proof of gold duggery, And to me personally, the 455 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,679 Speaker 1: most frightening thing about this situation is that, you know, 456 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 1: we're using the phrase organized crime, and what we're looking 457 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:16,160 Speaker 1: at an action seems to be institutionalized crime. Uh with 458 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: the by which I mean the level of reach and 459 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: organization seems far, far beyond what the average fan thinks, 460 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:31,119 Speaker 1: uh they're buying into when they make that dollar bet. Well, 461 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: I think you're right, because I don't Again, I think 462 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: a lot of fans they put on a fan hat 463 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: and when they put on their jersey and they watched TV, 464 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:45,199 Speaker 1: they kind of disconnect from the reality of everything, the 465 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 1: reality of the players, the reality of the gambling that 466 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: surrounds with the reality of the media control surrounding it all. 467 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 1: And I think they just watched the game and assume 468 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 1: what happens on the game lives up to every cliche 469 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 1: that's out there, you know, be the player wants to give, 470 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 1: take it to the next level, and all those things. 471 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,399 Speaker 1: I don't think fans are necessarily rational while they're watching 472 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: these sports, and so they don't recognize all the threats 473 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 1: and all the real possibilities that surround these games that 474 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 1: may be influencing and are corrupting the outcome of what 475 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,719 Speaker 1: they think is a true athletic competition. And I think 476 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:24,119 Speaker 1: there's so many variables that can influence these games that 477 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 1: it's something that really should be looked at closer and 478 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 1: not just be assumed that it is all these cliches 479 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 1: that are spouted week after week. And I want to 480 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 1: take it back just for a second and look at 481 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: some of the historical examples that will kind of give 482 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: a framework for our listeners to really see how this 483 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,879 Speaker 1: stuff started occurring. Um, one of the big ones that 484 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: we found in the fixes in is the Black Sox. 485 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 1: If you want to talk a little bit about that, 486 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,159 Speaker 1: the World Series and just kind of tell us that 487 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,120 Speaker 1: story and then maybe give us a few more examples historically. 488 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: Uh Uh, Fixing player's a funny thing. I mean, you 489 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 1: guys probably might remember the answer to these questions, But 490 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,159 Speaker 1: let me ask you a couple of quick questions. So 491 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 1: the Black Sox scandals you just said took place in 492 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 1: and that was the last time, supposedly, according to Major 493 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,400 Speaker 1: League Baseball, a baseball game has been fixed. Okay, that's 494 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,360 Speaker 1: nearly a hundred years now at this point. So when 495 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: was the last time National Hockey League game was admittedly 496 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 1: fixed by the league. Oh boy, without without going to Google, 497 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: I don't know that I can sufficiently answer that. Well, 498 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: the NHL was supposedly like in the nineties. I think 499 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: it was like six was the last time they said 500 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: the game was fixed? So when was the last time 501 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:46,640 Speaker 1: that an NBA game was fixed? Last season? I don't 502 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 1: know that would be my answer, but yeah, what they claim. Yeah, 503 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 1: I've just as a sidebar here for the listeners. Uh, Brian, 504 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: if you're okay with it, I would like to point 505 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: everybody to uh your website the fixes in dot net 506 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: because in the course for our research, we saw some 507 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:11,359 Speaker 1: fantastic uh modern articles um that we'll get into a 508 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 1: little bit later, But as soon as as soon as 509 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,199 Speaker 1: you had asked about the NHL, I went directly to 510 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 1: it and I thought, oh, he's got to have something 511 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: on this. So, yeah, what do you do you believe 512 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:27,640 Speaker 1: that the uh that the NBA was fixed last season? Well, 513 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,439 Speaker 1: we can get into that, but my opinion would be 514 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 1: definitely yes. I mean, I think one of the main 515 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:35,439 Speaker 1: things I try to point out to people because this 516 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:37,440 Speaker 1: is kind of a different end of the fixing now 517 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: that we're talking about and I think games are fixed 518 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: for organized crime and gambling purposes, and I look into 519 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: that research that and at the same time, I think 520 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: games are fixed by the leagues themselves for entertainment purposes 521 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: and for television and advertising purposes. And I mean, I 522 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: think the same the same you know, the same processes 523 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: that can be used for fixing games for gambling reasons 524 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 1: can be used to fix games for the league's reasons. 525 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 1: And I think the NBA certainly manipulated their own games. 526 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 1: And the scary part, the scariest part of all, is 527 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 1: that it is not illegal for league like the NBA 528 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: to fix its own game. There's no law that prevents that, right, 529 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: which is fascinating because in your book you you have 530 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 1: mentioned in the fixes in I believe it is you've 531 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: mentioned a couple of laws that come kind of close, right, 532 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 1: like the quiz show law or the or the Sports 533 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: Bribery Act of n four. So what makes them close 534 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 1: but not, uh, you know, not on the money enough 535 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: to actually enforce you know, what they purport to enforce. Well, 536 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: the Quisho law came first, and I came in the 537 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties out of the quiz show scandals. If anybody 538 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 1: ever saw that movie corrected by Robert Redford. That's a 539 00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 1: true story. The television networks, basically, we're fixing their game shows. 540 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 1: And for the same reason I claimed the like the 541 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 1: NFL or the NBA is fixing their own games, they 542 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 1: were fixing their own game shows to make it more entertaining, 543 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: to drive up ratings, to make people more interested in 544 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: what was going on. And there was a whistleblower from 545 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 1: within one of the game shows, who feel who felt 546 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: to get screwed basically by the network, and he turned 547 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 1: him in, and Congress investigated, and out of this investigation 548 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 1: came this realization that yeah, they were fixing the game 549 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: shows to make it more interesting. And so a lot 550 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: was produced and it was basically called the Quiz Show Law. 551 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: But that just covers intellectual contests or contests of chance, 552 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: which chance would be like you know, rolling the dice 553 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 1: or some you know, the wheel of fortune is a 554 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 1: type of chance thing. But so you can't fix intellectual 555 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: contests for television. But that doesn't cover physical contests like 556 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: a sport, and nobody I think what's called sport a chance. 557 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: You know, you won't call football game a game a 558 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: chance you'd call poker baby a game of chance, but 559 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 1: not football dice. You might call a game chance, but 560 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: not basketball. I know people that will be upset about 561 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 1: the poker being a game of chance. Yeah, I know 562 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 1: that was probably a bad example, trying to blow right 563 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 1: past it. But but basically that's what the quation a 564 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: lot covers is mainly intellectual contests, not physical ones. And 565 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,959 Speaker 1: then at the same time, in nineteen sixty four, Congress 566 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: passed the Sports Bribery Act, which made it illegal for 567 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 1: someone to bribe player, a coach, or a referee to 568 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 1: alter the outcome of a game. Amazingly, that wasn't a 569 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 1: federal crime before to fix a game, um, but after 570 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty four was illegal. But that's a bribe. Now, 571 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: if the NBA tells its referees, the employer tells its 572 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 1: employees how to do their job, and that may alter 573 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 1: the outcome of a game, well that's not anybody being bribed. 574 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: That's just someone telling you how to do your job. 575 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 1: And you go out in the court and do your job, 576 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 1: and maybe that alters the outcome of a game, and 577 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 1: maybe it doesn't. But the fact of the matter is 578 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 1: that doesn't make it illegal. So the closest thing is 579 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 1: fraud that this they cover. But even fraud doesn't cover 580 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: it because when New York Jets fans sued the New 581 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 1: England Patriots over to Spygate scandal, that's part of like 582 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,080 Speaker 1: a class action lawsuit, they ultimately lost in the court 583 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 1: ruled that look, when you buy a ticket to a game, 584 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: if you buy a ticket to an NFL game, that 585 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 1: team just basically has to provide a football game to you. 586 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be played on any certain rules. 587 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 1: Certain athletes don't have to perform or perform up to 588 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 1: a certain level. It doesn't mean a team can't cheat. 589 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: You pay to see football game. They provided a football game. 590 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 1: End of story. So there's really no law that covers 591 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 1: this in terms of a league fixing its own game 592 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 1: and making it illegal. It's not a crime because it 593 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: is simply entertainment, and the leagues will tell you that 594 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 1: their entertainment right legal legally they are, which which when 595 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 1: we learned about this, this may come as a blue 596 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 1: to die hard sports fans across the leagues. When we 597 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 1: learned about this, this kind of ruling would essentially render 598 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: UH sports leagues more on the level of wrestling than 599 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: it would for what they're proceved as. Is that correct? Oh, 600 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 1: very much so. And the funny thing is is ESPN, 601 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: you know, the worldwide leader in sports, They now cover 602 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 1: professional wrestling regularly. In fact, they have a special section 603 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 1: on their web page for professional wrestling. So, I mean 604 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 1: the outline is getting more and more blurred every day. 605 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Are you guys implying that professional wrestling isn't real? No? Oh, 606 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 1: we've done it. No, No, it's real, dude, Guys killing 607 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 1: me here, crushing my dreams. We thought it was best 608 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,959 Speaker 1: that you learned this way with an expert. Appreciate it 609 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 1: right for me? Um? Well, what are the consequences of 610 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: people getting caught, whether it's a player or an official. 611 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 1: Maybe there's betting involved, or someone has you know, used 612 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: a position of influence to for a personal game. What's 613 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 1: the problem is nobody's gotten cat that was bringing up earlier, 614 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: you know, the nine nineteen White Sox. Last time it's 615 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 1: supposedly happened in baseball ninety for the NHL early nineteen fifties, 616 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 1: I think it's fifty four for the NBA, and the 617 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: NFL claims it's never happened once in its entire existence 618 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,720 Speaker 1: that someone tried to or someone did fix the outcome 619 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: of a football game. So nobody's gotten con for this 620 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: crime in the United States except for college athletes. Okay, 621 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 1: in certain colleges like Boston College, Leedo, University of San Diego, 622 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 1: Northwestern there's been a few, but not a lot. Now 623 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 1: the scary part is to me is again, you look 624 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,760 Speaker 1: outside the United States, there's soccer match fixing at every level. 625 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 1: We know that World Cup soccer matches, which is the 626 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 1: most watched, most popular sporting event in the world. We 627 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: know soccer matches have been fixed in the World Cup. 628 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 1: We know it. We know the Indian Cricket League, which 629 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 1: is their national sport, is in the most corrupt leagues 630 00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 1: in the world. We know rugby in um what is 631 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,880 Speaker 1: it in Australia has been fixed. We know baseball in 632 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,320 Speaker 1: China has been fixed. I mean, we know sumo wrestling corrupted. 633 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:10,319 Speaker 1: We know there's corruption everywhere else around the world, but 634 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 1: supposedly here in the United States it just doesn't happen. 635 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:18,359 Speaker 1: And I don't believe that for one single You know, uh, 636 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,279 Speaker 1: We're tempted to agree with you there, because when we 637 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: talk about athletes being caught cheating or when we talk 638 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 1: about the game being somehow compromised. The only real coverage 639 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 1: of it in the contemporary world is uh, you know, 640 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 1: an individual athlete in most cases UH doping or taking 641 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 1: performance enhancing drugs. So it seems like what's happening here 642 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:48,800 Speaker 1: is a vast revenue stream for organized crime UH that 643 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,400 Speaker 1: is going from the street level to the top and 644 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:57,360 Speaker 1: then later global. And as as you said, this is 645 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:01,239 Speaker 1: occurring today, is it occurring more or less or has 646 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:05,279 Speaker 1: it always been the same and just unacknowledged. Well, I 647 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 1: think it's I think it has really been acknowledged. I 648 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 1: think more it's been brought to light, especially like in 649 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,360 Speaker 1: soccer and with the corruption that was in FIFA and 650 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,359 Speaker 1: even the International Olympic Committee to a certain extent, I 651 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 1: think it's come more to light, so more people are 652 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: looking at it. And at the same time, the more 653 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 1: people that seem to look as the more they realize 654 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,760 Speaker 1: that they're having a very hard time preventing it because 655 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,279 Speaker 1: it's such an easy crime to do, and yet it's 656 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,920 Speaker 1: a very hard crime to prove to get someone taken 657 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,320 Speaker 1: away and thrown in jail for it. Although it has happened. 658 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 1: I mean, like the Italian soccer league Serie A is 659 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: incredibly corrupt. It's been corrupted from the players all the 660 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 1: way up to the owners, and guys have been arrested 661 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: and thrown in jail for fixing matches and all sorts 662 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:50,920 Speaker 1: of bad behavior there. Yet you know, I think it 663 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 1: was Fox Sports paid them a few million dollars so 664 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 1: they could broadcast it here in the United States, and 665 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 1: those Fox Sports ever talked about that corruption. Of course 666 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 1: not it doesn't, but I mean they're the problem with it. 667 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 1: And the why no one I think has ever been 668 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:07,360 Speaker 1: really caught for to the professional level here in the 669 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 1: United States is how do you prove it? There is 670 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 1: no concrete evidence. And from the four dred some odd 671 00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:15,960 Speaker 1: files I obtained the Freeman of Information Act from the 672 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,399 Speaker 1: FBI related to this, the FBI can't prove these things 673 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,879 Speaker 1: have gone on. Yet they had great evidence. I mean, 674 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: they would talk to what they called top echelon informants, 675 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,240 Speaker 1: which are really the high up mafia informants who worked 676 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:30,880 Speaker 1: with bookies. It would say this bookie is working with 677 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 1: this player and they're going to fix this game, and 678 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 1: sure enough the game would end and exactly the way 679 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:38,759 Speaker 1: the informants said it was going to end, but that 680 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 1: didn't prove that the game was fixed. You know, you 681 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 1: can't go to court off of that. So where's your 682 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 1: concrete evidence unless somebody admits to committing a federal crime, 683 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 1: which is gonna be hard to do if you don't 684 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: have evidence of it or you didn't get it on 685 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:53,279 Speaker 1: a wire tap or some sort of recording of it. 686 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,880 Speaker 1: You know, nothing's written down, it's not written on league letterhead, 687 00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:00,440 Speaker 1: it's not written you know, it's there's no for the 688 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,359 Speaker 1: sort of thing. So the FBI got very frustrated in 689 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,319 Speaker 1: investigating these things because of that lack of evidence. And 690 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,240 Speaker 1: that's why the leagues can say this has never happened, 691 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,000 Speaker 1: because no one's ever been caught and convicted of it happening. 692 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 1: But that doesn't necessarily make it true. It just makes 693 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,799 Speaker 1: it true to their you know, proof of evidence. There. 694 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 1: I think they're wrapping up some of the more historical 695 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:26,799 Speaker 1: background of sports fixing and bookmaking. I'm kind of interested in, 696 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:31,880 Speaker 1: you know, at its most basic level, how did the 697 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:37,920 Speaker 1: mob originally start getting into this and start kind of 698 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 1: looking for easy targets as far as which sports to fix, 699 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,480 Speaker 1: Like I I picture boxing is being one because you 700 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:45,240 Speaker 1: can just you know, offer somebody a lot of money, 701 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,719 Speaker 1: or threaten somebody's family, things like that. But can you 702 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 1: kind of just lay it out a little bit about 703 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,399 Speaker 1: like how this started, how it kind of ballooned into 704 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,439 Speaker 1: what we see now in more modern times. Well, it's 705 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 1: hard to say, really because, like I said, I think 706 00:38:58,200 --> 00:38:59,919 Speaker 1: a lot of it was easy money. I mean, book 707 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,840 Speaker 1: making in many ways is pretty much easy money because 708 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 1: most of the time, the public is wrong when they 709 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:08,799 Speaker 1: make a bet, you know, I mean they really are. 710 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:11,720 Speaker 1: I mean a lot of people almost make more money 711 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 1: betting against the way the general public is betting on 712 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,640 Speaker 1: a game, because more often than not, the general public 713 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:19,759 Speaker 1: is wrong. So I mean most it's very hard to 714 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,200 Speaker 1: find a bookie who went out of business because his 715 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,279 Speaker 1: clients were too good and winning too often. So I 716 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 1: mean to get into, you know, bookmaking, and like I say, 717 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 1: organized crime has been in it for a hundred years 718 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,879 Speaker 1: or more. It's because more often than not, the people 719 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:37,320 Speaker 1: who are betting lose over a period of time. So 720 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,440 Speaker 1: that's why I think it's easy for them to go 721 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:42,640 Speaker 1: into the business and make money. In terms of fixing, 722 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:45,319 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's kind of nice to have a 723 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:47,800 Speaker 1: sure thing. And I think if you know that athletes 724 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,279 Speaker 1: are betting with you, you can compromise them. If you 725 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,120 Speaker 1: know athletes have a drug problem and you're the ones 726 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:54,719 Speaker 1: applying the drugs, you can compromise them. I mean, there's 727 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,719 Speaker 1: just ways to compromise athletes. And that's the way the 728 00:39:57,760 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 1: mob I think has made its money for threat of 729 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 1: history is finding the weaknesses within people and exploiting them. 730 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,919 Speaker 1: And it's funny you bring up boxing because most people 731 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 1: don't realize that. Like for boxing, between the late forties 732 00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 1: and early sixties, really one mobster controlled pretty much all 733 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:18,000 Speaker 1: of boxing, and I mean literally controlled it. He determined 734 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:20,560 Speaker 1: many times who would fight, who where they would fight, 735 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,359 Speaker 1: and oftentimes who would win and who would lose, and 736 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 1: he would always get a cut of that money. But 737 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 1: I mean, boxing is actually what made television, believe it 738 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:33,720 Speaker 1: or not. Who television became into the name was Frankie 739 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:38,520 Speaker 1: Carbo and Frankie Carbon basically controlled boxing. He worked with 740 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,640 Speaker 1: two guys who helped found the NHL, Arthur Wertz, whose 741 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,640 Speaker 1: family still owns the black Hawks today, and James Norris, 742 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:46,879 Speaker 1: who the Norris Trophy is named after. His father who 743 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,680 Speaker 1: owned the Detroit Red Wings. He worked with those two 744 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:52,600 Speaker 1: guys to put boxing events in their arenas because they 745 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:56,720 Speaker 1: controlled Madison Square Garden in Chicago, Stadium, Olympia Stadium in Detroit, 746 00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:00,319 Speaker 1: and St. Louis Arena, and he the mob are well, 747 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:02,800 Speaker 1: worked with those two guys put on boxing events and 748 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,400 Speaker 1: those arenas, and they sold it the CBS and NBC 749 00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:09,760 Speaker 1: is Wednesday and Friday night fights and those events really 750 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:14,759 Speaker 1: helped make television a must see thing. And it's I mean, 751 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,360 Speaker 1: it's pretty amazing that really, those three guys really helped 752 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,080 Speaker 1: influence television and made it something that everybody had to 753 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,719 Speaker 1: see because boxing was such popular in those fifties and 754 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,040 Speaker 1: early sixties, and yet it was controlled by organized crime 755 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:45,359 Speaker 1: the entire time. So thank you mafia for cable television. Yes, 756 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:51,359 Speaker 1: thank you for cable. Mobsters. Um I I mean we've 757 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,879 Speaker 1: we've lived with cable, we grew up with cable. I'm 758 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:58,640 Speaker 1: a cord cutter I am now, But what from the 759 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 1: ninth from the eighties up in until a couple of 760 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:04,279 Speaker 1: years ago, I had that cable like directly attached to 761 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:10,239 Speaker 1: my heart, intravenously pumping content into your bloodstream and right now, 762 00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:15,520 Speaker 1: ladies and gentlemen, you're with us in a moment outside 763 00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,440 Speaker 1: of time because we've taken a break. We can tell 764 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,799 Speaker 1: you that behind the scenes, Noel, Matt and I realized 765 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:24,879 Speaker 1: that we were not going to be able to fit 766 00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:28,000 Speaker 1: this entire interview into a single episode, so we knew 767 00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,600 Speaker 1: we would have to split it. And this is us 768 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,880 Speaker 1: traveling into our past, which I guess is you were 769 00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:38,319 Speaker 1: present now. UH. Podcasting plays with time that way. We're 770 00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:40,239 Speaker 1: so high on the spice right now. Yeah, we're so 771 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:44,200 Speaker 1: high on the spice right now that we are going 772 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:48,239 Speaker 1: to take some time. We're gonna head out of here 773 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,200 Speaker 1: and we'll be back next week with the second half 774 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:55,600 Speaker 1: of the interview. But while while we're still here, while 775 00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,600 Speaker 1: it's still uh the three amigos in the studio, I 776 00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,680 Speaker 1: have to have to ask you, guys, what are you 777 00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:04,719 Speaker 1: thinking so far about this, about this weird connection with 778 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:10,200 Speaker 1: the mafia and about uh Brian's Brian's statement that pretty 779 00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,600 Speaker 1: much all sports are rigged. So far, I'm pretty convinced, 780 00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:16,440 Speaker 1: I would have to say, but you know, maybe it's 781 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:19,319 Speaker 1: just because Brian's convincing. I don't know. It seems like 782 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,360 Speaker 1: after reading the material then hearing him talk about it 783 00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:26,520 Speaker 1: so openly and frankly. I mean, he's a very matter 784 00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:28,160 Speaker 1: of fact about it, and just it kind of just 785 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:30,400 Speaker 1: speaks about it like a foregone conclusion. And not to 786 00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:34,640 Speaker 1: say that that means it's true, But in my mind, 787 00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:38,040 Speaker 1: with all of the cases of sports fixing that we've 788 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:40,800 Speaker 1: we do know about in other parts of the world, 789 00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:44,440 Speaker 1: it just seems kind of naive to think that, you know, 790 00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:46,560 Speaker 1: with all that there is to gain from this, whether 791 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:50,920 Speaker 1: it's TV deals, whether it's you know, big money bets 792 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:53,720 Speaker 1: and organized crime, that this is not in fact happening 793 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:57,640 Speaker 1: on some level in professional sports. I just I don't 794 00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,840 Speaker 1: I can't buy that they're so squeaky clean. Also, given 795 00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:04,400 Speaker 1: these doping scandals that we always see uncovered and have 796 00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,120 Speaker 1: been you know, for a long time now, how how 797 00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:09,880 Speaker 1: can we accept that that is a thing that happens, 798 00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:11,799 Speaker 1: that people are willing to go to those lengths, but 799 00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:14,799 Speaker 1: not the ones that Brian describes. So I'm kind of 800 00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:16,960 Speaker 1: with you on that map. Yeah, he did. He did 801 00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:20,399 Speaker 1: an excellent job I think building a case uh so far, 802 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:26,000 Speaker 1: you know, at least providing motive. So listeners, hope you 803 00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:29,040 Speaker 1: enjoyed this episode as much as we're enjoying making it. 804 00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:32,000 Speaker 1: That's a tall order, as you said on Facebook Live 805 00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:37,400 Speaker 1: from earlier, but the journey is not over yet. Uh. 806 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,680 Speaker 1: If you're looking for something else to check out while 807 00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:44,600 Speaker 1: you're waiting for the conclusion to this interview, which will 808 00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:47,000 Speaker 1: come out next week, Uh, then why not head over 809 00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:48,839 Speaker 1: to stuff they Don't Want You to Know dot com 810 00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:50,880 Speaker 1: where you can check out every audio podcast we have 811 00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:56,640 Speaker 1: ever done, along with so many of our videos. And 812 00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:58,839 Speaker 1: if you want to read more from Brian, you can 813 00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,320 Speaker 1: check out his side at the Fixes in dot net, 814 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:03,680 Speaker 1: where you can see info on how to get ahold 815 00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,880 Speaker 1: of his books, the Fixes in Larceny Games, a Season 816 00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,240 Speaker 1: in the abyss not to be confused with the Slayer 817 00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:11,800 Speaker 1: album Seasons in the abyss um and he's got a 818 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:14,600 Speaker 1: really it's it's a very telling little tagline on his page. 819 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:19,879 Speaker 1: Here would you leave a multibillion dollar business up to chance? Oh? 820 00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:24,600 Speaker 1: Good question. And of course, if you have a suggestion 821 00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,239 Speaker 1: for an upcoming episode, or you want to see some 822 00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:29,759 Speaker 1: of the stuff we do that doesn't make it to 823 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,040 Speaker 1: the podcast, like you may have heard me mentioned Facebook Live, 824 00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:36,040 Speaker 1: well you can visit us on Facebook and Twitter, where 825 00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,640 Speaker 1: we are Conspiracy Stuff. You can find us on Instagram 826 00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:46,040 Speaker 1: where Conspiracy Stuff show and uh. If you're feeling particularly gregarious, generous, charitable, 827 00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:48,920 Speaker 1: if you feel like you need to give back, if 828 00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,560 Speaker 1: today is your day to do a good deed, then 829 00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:54,319 Speaker 1: why not drop us a review on iTunes? And many 830 00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:56,680 Speaker 1: of you have since the last time I checked. There 831 00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,560 Speaker 1: have been some nice reviews, some not so nice ones too, 832 00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:01,440 Speaker 1: But you know what, we take the good with the 833 00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:07,080 Speaker 1: bad folks, and we really appreciate your support. Yeah, yeah, 834 00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:12,239 Speaker 1: it's good. We want it all objectivity. But yeah, you 835 00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:14,719 Speaker 1: can do that on iTunes, You can do that on Stitcher, 836 00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:16,319 Speaker 1: there are any place that you can get the show, 837 00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:20,200 Speaker 1: and you have the ability to review us, please do 838 00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:22,439 Speaker 1: It helps the algorithm and helps people find out about 839 00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:25,680 Speaker 1: the show and keeps us from getting fired. And that's 840 00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:28,759 Speaker 1: the end of this classic episode. If you have any 841 00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:32,839 Speaker 1: thoughts or questions about this episode, you can get into 842 00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:35,399 Speaker 1: contact with us in a number of different ways. One 843 00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:36,960 Speaker 1: of the best is to give us a call. Our 844 00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:40,600 Speaker 1: number is one eight three three st d w y 845 00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:42,840 Speaker 1: t K. If you don't want to do that, you 846 00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:45,359 Speaker 1: can send us a good old fashioned email. We are 847 00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:50,000 Speaker 1: conspiracy at I Heart radio dot com. Stuff they Don't 848 00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,560 Speaker 1: Want You to Know is a production of I heart Radio. 849 00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:55,120 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i 850 00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:58,120 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 851 00:46:58,120 --> 00:46:58,960 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.