1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The worst nightmare it comes 2 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:20,080 Speaker 1: true when parents take their little boys fishing. The little 3 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: boys are so excited because they think they found pirate treasure. 4 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:38,880 Speaker 1: They have found anything but Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 5 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:49,639 Speaker 1: Let's kick it off with our friend Amy Robot. So 6 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: we went out there and anchored off of Fisherman's Island 7 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: and we're just doing some fishing and suddenly one notices 8 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: that the suitcases floated by. We wheeled the boat around 9 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: pulled up alongside it. I immediately thought it probably blew 10 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 1: off of a car, you know, and off the luggage 11 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: rack or something. D and his son had reached over 12 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: and were trying to pull it up in It had 13 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: some weight to it, so I stopped the boat, reached 14 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: in and helpfully pulled a thing up in there and 15 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: laid it in the floor of the boat. They found 16 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: a dark green Kenneth Cole suitcase in pretty good condition 17 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 1: that was apparently part of a luggage set of three. 18 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: They put it on board and the middle boy with 19 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:45,680 Speaker 1: him is very, very excited. He thinks his buried treasure, 20 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: so he wants to open it. The contents were covered 21 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: with a thick trash bag. Guys, you're hearing the voice 22 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: of a guy named Chris Hinkle who is out fishing, 23 00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: and the voice of a very special guest. Joining us today, 24 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: John on Glatt. He is the author of To Have 25 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: and To Kill. You can find him at John Glatt 26 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: dot com with me an all star panel. In addition 27 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: to John, Ashley Wilcot, judge, trial lawyer anchor at Court TV. 28 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:19,359 Speaker 1: You can find her at Ashley Wilcot dot com. Doctor 29 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: Angela Arnold, renounced psychiatrists, joining me out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. 30 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: She's at Angela Arnold MD dot com. Professor Forensics, Jacksonville 31 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, 32 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: and star of a brand new series on the True 33 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: Crime Network, Poisonous Liaisons. Joseph Scott Morgan joining us, but 34 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:46,519 Speaker 1: first to Kristin Kwan with WCYB, Bristol, Virginia. Kristin, thank 35 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: you so much for being with us. Crystal. What body 36 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:54,079 Speaker 1: of water, Kristen, were these guys fishing on? So? This 37 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: was the Chesapeake Bay area in Virginia Beach, Virginia. Absolutely beautiful, 38 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 1: big for a spot, Chesapeake Bay. To John Glad joining us. 39 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: In addition to Kristin Kwan wcyb. John, it's so great 40 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 1: to get to talk to you again. Tell me about 41 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: this group of people that were out fishing. I guess 42 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: it was the parents out fishing with the little boys. 43 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: Tell me what happened how they managed to pull up 44 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 1: a very expensive Kenneth Cole's suitcase full of anything but treasure. Yeah. Well, 45 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: actually it was Chris Hinkle, who is a fisherman. Were 46 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: a friend of his and their two little kids, and 47 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 1: it was early May, so it was their first fishing 48 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: tip of the year. So they were very, very excited, 49 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: and they wasn't They weren't getting much catch. And then 50 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: they sort of they meandered around for a while and 51 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 1: then suddenly they picked up this suitcase and they dragged 52 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: it in. It was kind of a smallish suitcase. They 53 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: put it on board. Little Chris Hinkle's little boy was terribly, 54 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: terribly excited, and then they opened it up and there 55 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: was a black trash bag in there. And when this 56 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: doesn't sound like it's going anywhere good, how old was 57 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: a little boy, John Glad I think it was seven 58 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: or eight. Oh, my stars. So in Chesapeake Bay we're 59 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:21,720 Speaker 1: big fishers, campers and our veers. There's channel catfish, carp 60 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 1: trout ill. Oh my goodness, there's so many things for 61 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: them to be fishing before, but they end up getting 62 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: a kenneth coal that's not cheap. So take a listen, 63 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:39,040 Speaker 1: guys to our friends. At twenty twenty, SO turned to 64 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: say something to D, and while I was talking to D, 65 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: the young boy reached down and ripped open the plastic 66 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: trash bags. Because there was no doubt what it was. 67 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: It's a set of human legs. There's a pair of 68 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:57,039 Speaker 1: nail legs from the knee down, look very fresh, and 69 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:00,479 Speaker 1: they recoil in horror. I'll look down, AR said, Oh 70 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: my graciously, So I closed the bag back up and 71 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: a doll nine one one. I was out on patrol 72 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: in the Chesspeake Bay when I received a radio call. 73 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: I made arrangements with him to meet me and he 74 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 1: transferred a suitcase over to my boat. I handed him 75 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: with the luggage and he seemed surprised. He goes, what 76 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 1: do you want me to do with that? And I said, 77 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 1: open it up. I was pretty shocked. I've never seen 78 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: a suitcase with body parts in it before. There really 79 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: wasn't any smell they actually looked kind of fresh. Okay, 80 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: right there. To Joseph Scott, Morgan Professor Forensics, Joseph Scott, 81 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 1: it's amazing how even when you've never seen a dead 82 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: body before, much less a dead dismembered body that you know, 83 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 1: it's as they are saying, fresh their words, not mine. 84 00:05:55,960 --> 00:06:00,159 Speaker 1: That's how they're describing what they have found. But the 85 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 1: reality is they're right. Joe Scott explain. Yeah, you know, Nancy, 86 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: I got to see an image of this suitcase that 87 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 1: contain these legs, and when you when you take a 88 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 1: look at them, they it does appear fresh. And the 89 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 1: reason I know that is I've been around so many 90 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: decomposed bodies during my career. The skin is nicely pinked up. 91 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: It's it doesn't have kind of a you sound like 92 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: you're talking about a fish. Well, you know, I gotta 93 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:31,480 Speaker 1: tell you, Nancy, there are a lot of comparisons that 94 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:36,840 Speaker 1: we do relative to decomposing bodies and say picking out 95 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 1: fresh fish in the market, Like you know how they 96 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 1: talk about you don't buy fish with cloudy eyes. Well, 97 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 1: that's something that we look for, is a post mortem 98 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: change in the dead, and it applies to you know, 99 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:52,479 Speaker 1: this is my fault, Joe Scott, because I asked you 100 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: and now I'm going to get it. Go ahead, take 101 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: take your medicine. Okay. So in a case of a 102 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 1: body that has been decomposing, you can see the skin 103 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 1: color changes. It'll go from like kind of a deep 104 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: red and the most striking colors are like black and green, 105 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: and it's you'll have marbling, which is kind of these 106 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: little vinual looking outgrowths within the not outgrows, but contain nual. 107 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: Are you referring to veins, Yeah, but I'm referring to 108 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: actually the capillary beds where we have arterials and vinuals 109 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 1: where the transfer takes place of oxygenated blood, and so 110 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: the blood will literally decompose within these vessels and it 111 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: will start to you can actually follow the pattern many times. 112 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: You don't see that in this image that I have 113 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: born witness too with these legs in the suitcase. So yeah, 114 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: they in my opinion, just from looking at that, they 115 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: do appear very very fresh. Take a listen to our 116 00:07:55,840 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: friend Megan Sacks speaking with Dan Bow. They were discovered 117 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: in the Chesapeake Bay in Virginia in various locations. One 118 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: was on Fisherman's Island, and I believe the two others 119 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: were actually in the bay, and there were different parts 120 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: of the body. So in one suitcase there was kind 121 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: of a torso with the arms and heads still attached. 122 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 1: In a second suitcase there was the pelvis area, and 123 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: in the third suitcase there was relieved the legs down, 124 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:30,119 Speaker 1: so it literally appeared as if the body was cut 125 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 1: to fit these suitcases. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Guys, 126 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 1: I'm trying to wrap my mind around the fact that 127 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: there were multiple suitcases all from a matching set, which 128 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: you know, tells me something about the killer. I mean, 129 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: there's no way we could find a matching set of 130 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: luggage in our home. Maybe maybe somehow we could cobble 131 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:11,439 Speaker 1: it together. But did someone go out and buy a 132 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 1: matching set of Kenneth Cold luggage? That tells me a 133 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: lot about the killer. But I'm trying to understand to 134 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: Kristin Kwan Special Guests joining me from w CYB, Bristol, 135 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: joining me along with John Glad Kristen, where are the 136 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 1: locations as they relate to each other? How many miles 137 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: apart the terrain? Were they all submerged in water? What 138 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 1: can't you tell me Kristen, Right. So, of course, the 139 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 1: first one was found, like we spoke about, in the bay, 140 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 1: and a fisherman actually pulled that one up right. The 141 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 1: second one was found kind of in a more remote 142 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: area of the beach, and the person who found that 143 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 1: one was walking along and actually could smell the odor 144 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 1: coming from that second suitcase. Is it the same body 145 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:06,439 Speaker 1: of water, Kristen, It's all around the Chesapeake Bay area. 146 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:10,199 Speaker 1: What I'm trying to figure out is Christine Kwan WCYB. 147 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 1: Did someone throw the three suit cases out at one 148 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: location or did they travel from location to location trying 149 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: to hide evidence? Well, it's quite possible. I think that 150 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 1: they could. They could have dropped them all in the 151 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: same location, or that they could have found them, you know, 152 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: in various areas of the So one fisher person found it, 153 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: then one person walking along the beach found it, and 154 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 1: then where was the third one? The third one was 155 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: found submerged in water as well to John Gladden joining 156 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: me author off to have and to kill? How far 157 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: apart were the three suit cases and were they a 158 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 1: matching set? And do you believe John Glad that the 159 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 1: killer had to travel, for instance, in a vehicle to 160 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: have them thrown away that far apart or were they 161 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 1: thrown just for instance, over a bridge and the tide 162 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: took them to different places? Yeah. No, they were thrown 163 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: over the bridge, the Chesapeake Bay Tunnel, I think bridge 164 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: and in one spot. But they were found over the 165 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 1: period of the week eight days, I think. So the 166 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: first one was the legs, which were totally fresh, were 167 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: found I think the next day after they were thrown 168 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: or discarded, and then about three or four days later 169 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: the second suitcase was found on Fisherman's Island, and then 170 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 1: the first case was found a few days after that 171 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 1: a few miles away. So they'd kind of drifted down stream, 172 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: I guess, and the tides at the Chesapeake Bay had 173 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: a lot to do with it. But it would definitely 174 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: home for one spot. That's where you really need a 175 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: current and tide expert and a common case that everyone 176 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 1: may be remember and familiar with to you. Actually, Willcote 177 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: judge and trial lawyer Quart TV anchor Ashley would be 178 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 1: the Scott Peterson case because we know that Lacy and 179 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: Connor were together, because Connor was still in Lacey's tummy, 180 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:12,679 Speaker 1: she was pregnant eight months pregnant when she was murdered 181 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 1: and thrown into the San Francisco Bay. As I recall 182 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: one of the bodies, and I'm pretty sure it was 183 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: a baby, Connor washed ashore first, and then about twenty 184 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: four to thirty six hours later, Lacy's body washed ashore. 185 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: So we know as in this case where the suitcases 186 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: were all throwing the water at the same time, a 187 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 1: lot has to do with the currents and tides as 188 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,679 Speaker 1: to when they're going to wash wash ashore Ashley. And 189 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: that's something you've got to prove to a jury, absolutely, 190 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 1: and it's not going to be just one little, you know, 191 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:51,959 Speaker 1: ten minute piece of testimony. To prove it to a jury, 192 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: you were going to have to have an expert who's 193 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: going to come in and say, this is the way 194 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: tides are, this is what we know, this is how 195 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: we can track where it was thrown in Wyatt landed 196 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:04,079 Speaker 1: Here were they thrown in at the same time. Were 197 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 1: there are three separate suitcases. Could there have been three 198 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: different people who put body parts in suitcases and went 199 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: three different directions and threw them over at different places. 200 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: Those are the kinds of things that that kind of 201 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 1: expert can provide at trial to convince the jury the 202 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: defendant did it, because you know Joseph Scott Morgan for instance, 203 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: I've seen defendants do this many many times. They commit 204 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: a murderer, all right, Then they take the gun and 205 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 1: they break it down and they throw this piece over 206 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 1: that bridge. They throw this piece over that bridge. They 207 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: throw this piece into a garbage bin, thinking that nobody 208 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: will figure out how to put the pieces together. In 209 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 1: this case, there's always the possibility that happened. But Kamal, 210 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: let's get real. You got a matching set of Kenneth 211 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: Cole luggage, and every suitcase has body parts. Where you 212 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 1: put them all together, you get a body. Yeah. And 213 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: you know, to Ashley's point talking about experts, you know, Nancy, 214 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: not to give you a history lesson, but Chesapeake Bay 215 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: is one is one of the locations where you know 216 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: the original colonists actually landed. Well, they're fully what I'm 217 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 1: saying is they're fully aware of the tides in this area. 218 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 1: It's not some isolated area. You've got a lot of 219 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: shipping that goes through there, and you've got a lot 220 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 1: of rivers that dump into this area just out of 221 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: the Greater Beltway area. And then to boot you're dealing 222 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: with the Atlantic Ocean, so every time tide comes in, 223 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: it begins to elevate, and then as it goes out, 224 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: it draws things in the bay out. So you've got 225 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: a lot of these things that are impacting. Then you 226 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: have this specific area, just like Kristen had mentioned just 227 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: a moment ago, this bridge or maybe it was John 228 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 1: where the suitcases were probably dumped off of. And so 229 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: you've got this target area you can actually trace these 230 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 1: tidal float that goes through there and what the disbursement 231 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: might be or the potential might be. You know, you've 232 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: got weather impact, water, vehicle impact, and then you've got 233 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 1: the tides to deal with. But this is a science, Nancy. 234 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 1: They had the same peg down, so yeah, it would 235 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 1: be easy to track. And the reality is, and the 236 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: reason I was curious is because right or wrong, I 237 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: now look at everything as evidence of what I can 238 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: prove it trial. And I was thinking, if they had 239 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: been discarded separately, is their surveillance video, did somebody cross 240 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: a toll? Did somebody go buy a tag grabber, you know, 241 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:44,359 Speaker 1: your tag number grabber to help me identify in some way? 242 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: Did they have to go into a marina? Is there 243 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: surveillance video at the bridge. Is there some way to 244 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: determine if this person can be spotted on a video. 245 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 1: That's what I was trying to get at, if they've 246 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: been thrown away in separate locations. Of course, the big 247 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: question who's in the suitcase? Take a listen to our 248 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: friend Maureen Marr. At forty eight hours, Virginia Beach police 249 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: were analyzing those matching suitcases found in the Chesapeake Bay. 250 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: A fingerprint check confirmed the man inside the luggage was 251 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: Bill McGuire. But who killed him? And how did he 252 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: end up here more than three hundred miles away from 253 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: his home in New Jersey. Do you believe all three 254 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: suitcases were thrown off this bridge? Yes. CSI investigator Beth 255 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: Dutton quickly determined that Bill McGuire was shot in the 256 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: head and torso with a thirty eight caliber gun, but 257 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: other forensic evidence was far more difficult to come by. 258 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 1: The suitcases were saturated with water. It just destroyed a 259 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: lot of that smoking gun type of evidence that probably 260 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: was in the suitcase. And the water became my greatest 261 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: of the call to John glad joining me, author of 262 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 1: the book To Have and to Kill and you Can 263 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 1: find that like we did on Amazon. He's also at 264 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 1: John glad with twots dot com. John, let's talk about 265 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: the suitcases. Okay, I know I don't want to bury 266 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 1: the lead here. The victim is Bill McGuire. Now I 267 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 1: got to find out how do they know it's Bill McGuire. 268 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: I mean, you find a foot, how do you know 269 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 1: that's Bill McGuire? And what evidence was lost? Because those 270 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 1: suitcases were saturated in water for at least twenty four hours, 271 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:40,640 Speaker 1: and two of the suitcases for much longer. So how 272 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: first of all, tell me, and I'm thinking about how 273 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,680 Speaker 1: this could be proven at trial, tell me how badly 274 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: the suitcases were saturated, and what kind of evidence we lost. Well, 275 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: they were really badly saturated, and the buddies were in very, 276 00:17:56,119 --> 00:18:01,440 Speaker 1: very bad condition. They just about could find that there's 277 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 1: been shot in the head and the torso, but there 278 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 1: was nothing else to show what had happened to him 279 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: except the body who had been cut. I mean, it's 280 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:18,160 Speaker 1: a really interesting story about how they identified Bill McGuire. Well, 281 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:22,160 Speaker 1: the face was in such a bad condition that the 282 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 1: detective of Virginia Beach got a police artist to sketch 283 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: what he thought it would you know, the man would 284 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 1: have looked like, you know, before he'd been so disfigured 285 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: by the water and everything. And it just so happened 286 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,120 Speaker 1: that one of Bill McGuire's best friends, a guy called 287 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 1: John Rice, lived in Virginia Beach and they'd heard that 288 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 1: Bill hadn't been seen for a while, you know, and 289 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 1: they were wondering where he was, and they saw it 290 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 1: come up on the news. They saw this photo fit 291 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:55,160 Speaker 1: picture drawing, and they said, I bet this isn't Bill. 292 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 1: And then then more they thought about it, they actually 293 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:02,160 Speaker 1: went to the police and they identified him as their 294 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 1: friend Bill McGuire. So it was kind of a really 295 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,680 Speaker 1: one of a hundred chance that he would have got identified. 296 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:11,679 Speaker 1: Just have to be a friend that stow it On 297 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 1: the news Time Stories with Nancy Grace, Guys, we are 298 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 1: talking about a little boy out fishing with parents and 299 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,880 Speaker 1: he thinks he's found pirate treasure in the water. They 300 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: pull it up and it is one of three matching 301 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:43,439 Speaker 1: Kenneth Cole suitcases. They opened it up and just like 302 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: in the movies, there's a plastic bag and they're a 303 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: black plastic bag. It contains anything but goal coins. Inside 304 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 1: are legs dismembered legs of a human out of the blue. 305 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 1: Two other suitcases wash up the rest of the victim's body. 306 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 1: I didn't know that, John Glatt, that when police are 307 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 1: trying to figure out who it is, they have no leads. 308 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:18,159 Speaker 1: I've worked a lot with reconstructionists, and I'll tell you 309 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 1: what happened in one of my cases. John, You're gonna 310 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 1: love this, Joe Scott, and especially you, Doctor Angela Arnold, psychiatrist. 311 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 1: I had a woman's body and she was a Jane Dae. 312 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: We didn't know who she was. I had a facial 313 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:39,880 Speaker 1: reconstructionist do a sketch on her. The case went on, 314 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 1: was hard to prove. We finally connected it to a 315 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 1: chef in Atlanta, and I got to digging around in 316 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 1: hint in his history and found his ex girlfriend. Wait 317 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 1: for it, he had tried to strangle her, we think, 318 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 1: and Oh died of triangulation. Her body had been out 319 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 1: in the elements for a while. I had the jury 320 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 1: look at her picture, compared the girlfriend the living girlfriend 321 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: to Jane Doe. They were identical, unrelated bloodline, but they 322 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 1: look like doppelganger twins. So I argued in closing argument, 323 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,679 Speaker 1: who would kill this woman other than the guy that 324 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: was rejected by this woman. I mean, these sketch artists 325 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: are amazing. And the likelihood that a friend of the 326 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: victim happens to be from New Jersey now in Chesapeake area, 327 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 1: sees the sketch on TV and says, Wow, that looks 328 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 1: like Bill McGuire. But who is Bill McGuire? How does 329 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,399 Speaker 1: his body end up at Chesapeake Bay when he's from 330 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: New Jersey. Now his friends knew he had been seeing 331 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 1: and there was concern for us whereabouts. We know he 332 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: was married and had a happy family. What do we 333 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,640 Speaker 1: know about his wife? Take a listen to our friend, 334 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 1: Marine mart She was every mother's dream, a good girl, 335 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: never got in trouble, very supportive of her family, happy, 336 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:26,120 Speaker 1: a wonderful, wonderful student. Melanie became a nurse. There were 337 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: several times where she would see an accident on the 338 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 1: side of the road and she would stop the car 339 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: and go over and assist. She was always there for people. 340 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 1: It was a quality that caught the eye of twenty 341 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: eight year old Bill McGuire, a veteran of the US Navy. 342 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 1: He was one of those people that just had a gift. 343 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: He could talk to anyone anywhere or anytime. Bill's sister 344 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 1: or Cindy Lagosh says from day one, Bill and Melanie 345 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:57,400 Speaker 1: were a perfect match. They were equals, so a happy marriage. 346 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 1: So how does this guy end up severed in multiple suitcases? 347 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 1: You always look at the wife, the family, the husband, 348 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: the lover first. But let's dig a little deeper. How 349 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:15,639 Speaker 1: did these two mate? Doesn't start in the right way. 350 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 1: Listen to our friends at direct Appeal, we decided we 351 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:25,640 Speaker 1: would go over there and confronted together. Needless to say, 352 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 1: that was a little explosive, but after lots of yelling 353 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: and screaming, accusing pushing, he had pushed her at one point. 354 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,199 Speaker 1: I did see it, but she was really kind of 355 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: going at him, So in my mind of telling myself, well, 356 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 1: she was physically lunging at him. It's not like he 357 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: hit her. He was just kind of pushing her back. 358 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: But nonetheless, she sat in my car afterwards and she 359 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:52,959 Speaker 1: said that she was done, that was it, she had 360 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 1: had it, and that I could go back in there 361 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,919 Speaker 1: if I wanted to, but she warned me against it. 362 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,120 Speaker 1: She told me that ultimately he would make me think 363 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 1: that I was crazy, that he would end up moral 364 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:10,439 Speaker 1: less controlling my life, and that I would basically I 365 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,879 Speaker 1: would see would I would learn the hard way. Okay, 366 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 1: you are hearing two women fighting over a married man, 367 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 1: like there's not another man in the universe that you 368 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: can find. Yeah, I have to pick one that's already 369 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: married to John Glad, author of to Having to Kill. 370 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: Who are these women? One of them is Melanie and 371 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 1: I understand that when she met Bill Maguire, he was 372 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 1: already married. Yeah, he's already married to a lady called Massy, 373 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,400 Speaker 1: and he started having an affair with Melanie. And when 374 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 1: Massi found out, she actually called Melanie and said I'd 375 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,160 Speaker 1: like to meet you, and believe it or not, they 376 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,120 Speaker 1: actually met. I think in a car a. Massy tried 377 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: to warn Melanie against Bill a lot the Massie wanted 378 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,439 Speaker 1: to build back, but she was telling him, as you 379 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 1: could hear in that interview, that Bill would only be 380 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 1: troubled for her. To doctor Angela Arnold psychiatrists joining me 381 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 1: out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Doctor Angie, that start some 382 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 1: marriage off, the relationship off on the wrong foot. When 383 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,400 Speaker 1: you're and we always say you steal him away from 384 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 1: his wife. That's byes you don't steal him if he 385 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: doesn't want to be stolen. Oh my gosh, I mean 386 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,679 Speaker 1: what it's what a way to start a marriage. But 387 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: she did start the marriage that way. So when someone 388 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: starts a marriage, they feel like they're going to go 389 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,439 Speaker 1: into they feel like they can make everything better, and 390 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: they're going to go into this happy life with somebody. Right, man, 391 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 1: I don't feel like if the guy would cheat on 392 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 1: his first wife, why wouldn't he cheat on me as well? 393 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 1: That would be my fear. Guys, take a listen to 394 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: Megan Saxon Amy Schlossberg. The direct appeal bill left for 395 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,159 Speaker 1: X amount of time? Yeah, now are we talking he 396 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: would lee for hours or days? That's pretty relevant. Days days? Okay, 397 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,199 Speaker 1: it was days? And is there anyone saying that he 398 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: was abusive to them? Whether it be Marcy or Kathy 399 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 1: or is anyone else? Okay, So here's what Marcy said. 400 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 1: I have a report that I found. It's a let's see, 401 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: an interview that was conducted with one of the investigators, 402 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: and I think it was submitted into evidence because it 403 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,160 Speaker 1: is a bait stamp on it. It's not a very 404 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 1: long interview, So I'll just read you a brief, brief portion. Okay. 405 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 1: Marcy is the victim's first wife. They were married for 406 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 1: eight years and divorced in nineteen ninety four. When the 407 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 1: victim was in the Navy. They were living in Virginia Beach. 408 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 1: She described the victim as having a big mouth, controlling, 409 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 1: and a temper. She further described the victim as being 410 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,640 Speaker 1: verbally abusive. However, the victim did put a pillow over 411 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,719 Speaker 1: her face one time during an argument. Okay, so that's abuse. 412 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,959 Speaker 1: So we're hearing about him being abusive. We're also hearing 413 00:26:55,440 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 1: Chesapeake Bay coming back into the scenario. I'm glad. Did 414 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 1: he live in Chesapeake Bay with the first wife? No, No, 415 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 1: he was in the Navy, he was stationed there. He 416 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,159 Speaker 1: always loved the Chesapeake Bay, and he actually dreamed of 417 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 1: moving to Virginia Beach. But he didn't, in fact live 418 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: in New Jersey. He was there the whole time. So 419 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: now we're finding a connection to Chesapeake Bay. But he 420 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 1: lived with his wife, Melanie in New Jersey. Correct, correct? Yes, Okay, 421 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: Now we know that Bill and Melanie get married, they 422 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,919 Speaker 1: move into a town home, but then somehow things start 423 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:40,640 Speaker 1: to change. She says that Bill developed issues with gambling. 424 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 1: Is that true, John Glatt, I don't think he had 425 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:50,639 Speaker 1: issues with gambling. He was actually a very good gambler. Whoa, whoa, 426 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,199 Speaker 1: wait wait wait, if you're a very good gambler, and 427 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,880 Speaker 1: that means you do it a lot, is that right? Yes? 428 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: But he also won, and he was very successful. He 429 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 1: won a lot more than he lost. And when I 430 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 1: was at trial, I mean, they had a lot of 431 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: testimony about this. And he actually had a roof where 432 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 1: he'd actually go to a casino and put a few 433 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: thousand dollars into the bank because they would comp him 434 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 1: three rooms, free food and everything, and then he'd gamble, 435 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,920 Speaker 1: win some money, take his money out of the bank, 436 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 1: and he'd have a great weekend. So it wasn't that 437 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: he had a gambling problem exactly, although Melanie tried to 438 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: make out that he did. He was actually pretty successful 439 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,680 Speaker 1: what he did, and he knew when to stop, which 440 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: was the big thing. Okay, all right, I'm not a gambler. 441 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: Worked pretty hard to make a living and I don't 442 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: want to lose it on the table. But in addition 443 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 1: to gambling, there seems to be another problem. Take a 444 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: listen to our cut number six, Amy Robot there were 445 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 1: good times with that, and there were bad times. And 446 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: there were a couple of times I put my foot 447 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: down and I SAI, that's it no more, And then 448 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: he would get involved in the stock market. He wanted 449 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: what he wanted and he couldn't get it fast enough, 450 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: and with that came frustration, and eventually that frustration became 451 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: directed at me. There was one particular argument over the 452 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: phone where he had gotten stopped for a traffic ticket. 453 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 1: He had an absolutely atrocious driving record, so I started 454 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: to argue back, and the next thing coming out of 455 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: his mouth is when I get home, I'm going to 456 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 1: kill you. I smash your face. And it's very difficult 457 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: for me to think back on it because I actually 458 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: drove off in the middle of the night and I 459 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 1: had left and I should have stayed gone. Why did 460 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 1: you say I wasn't strong enough to leave? Did you 461 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: love him? I did? I did. And even though now 462 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 1: at this point they are in mind, I'm having an affair. 463 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace. There was one particular argument 464 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: over the phone where he had gotten stopped for a 465 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 1: traffic ticket. He had an absolutely atrocious driving record, so 466 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 1: I start to argue back, and the next thing coming 467 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,239 Speaker 1: out of his mouth is when I get home, I'm 468 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: gonna kill you. I'm gonna smash her face in. It's 469 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 1: very difficult for me to think back on it because 470 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: I actually drove off in the middle of the night 471 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: and I had left and I should have stayed gone. 472 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: Why did you stay? I wasn't strong enough to leave. 473 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 1: Did you love him? I did? I did. And even 474 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 1: though now at this point they are in mind, I'm 475 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 1: having an affair. What okay, wait a minute, Wait a minute, 476 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 1: Kristin Kwan w CYB, Bristol. She is painting him out 477 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 1: to be the bad guy. Maybe he is a bad guy, 478 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: but she's having an affair. Yes, she was having an 479 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: affair with a doctor where she worked. She worked at 480 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 1: a fertility clinic as a nurse. She was in a 481 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 1: having an affair with the doctor, doctor Bradley Miller. And 482 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 1: did he Bill McGuire know about that. I don't believe 483 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: that Bill McGuire knew good Lord in Heaven. So bottom line, 484 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 1: doctor Angela Arnold, you're a shrink. Anybody could have done this. 485 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 1: He's got connections to Chesapeak Bay, he's got an angry 486 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,239 Speaker 1: ex wife, he's a gambler. And let me tell you, 487 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 1: nothing good happens when you're a steady gambler. You are 488 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: around well. As my grandmother used to say, you lay 489 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: down with the dog, you wake up with a flea. 490 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: So when you're with pro gamblers all the time, nothing 491 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: good is going to happen there. And now I find 492 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: out there's another man in the picture. There's a lot 493 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 1: going on here, doctor Angie. And I think I promise 494 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 1: my husband want to take the trash out for Pete's sake. 495 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 1: I mean, it's very it's all very complicated, and no one, 496 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 1: no one seems to be doing the right thing in 497 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 1: this cadre of people, do they everybody's got an angle, 498 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 1: don't they. Yeah, it seems like they do. And it 499 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 1: makes the water's very murky. Ashley Willcott, I mean he 500 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 1: didn't kill himself and severa's limbs apart and jump into 501 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 1: a Kenneth Cole's suitcase on his own. So now we've 502 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 1: got a whole plethora of potential suspects. Yep, bro Ro, 503 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 1: That's what I would say for this wife, because listen, 504 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,239 Speaker 1: her having an affair doesn't mean she did it, but 505 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: it sure does provide what motive and we all know 506 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 1: that when they are looking at an individual, if they 507 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: seem motive, they really like to they double down on you. 508 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut nine Maureen mar at 509 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: forty eight hours. What was he saying to you through 510 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 1: the doorway, I'm going to take the kids and you'll 511 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: never see them again. Melanie says, Bill packed his bags 512 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: and stormed off in his car. Two days later she 513 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,480 Speaker 1: filed a restraining order. But that restraining order he could 514 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 1: not go to school and pick up the kids and 515 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 1: take off with them. In that my biggest fear. And 516 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 1: there's more. We find out that Melanie goes to Atlantic 517 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 1: City the night after Bill leaves her to go find him. 518 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: She says, let me understand this, Johant glad that she 519 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: found his car, but then moved his car to quote 520 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: piss him off, right, That didn't make much sense, actually, 521 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 1: I mean Bill. According to Melanie, they had a big 522 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 1: fight and it was literally hours after they signed a 523 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 1: contract on a brand new house, his dream house. That 524 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 1: was the night he disappeared. She said they had a fight, 525 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 1: he stormed out, and she expected him to go to 526 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 1: gamp to Atlantic City, so she sneaked on down there 527 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: in her car and just happened to find his car, 528 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: John Glad. I mean if she had something like find 529 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: my iPhone or Life three sixty, she could easily find 530 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 1: his car. Right. Well, I don't know how she did it, 531 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 1: but she knew where he gambled. I guess it's also 532 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 1: whether he drove the car there, of course, you know, 533 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 1: or whether somebody else did. But she's hope Pollice, she 534 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 1: did find the car. And what else did she tell them? 535 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 1: She tells him that she moved his car just to 536 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,400 Speaker 1: piss him off and drive it somewhere else. Now, what 537 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 1: can you tell me about video that emerges of someone 538 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: picking someone parking Bill's car. Yeah, there's video from the 539 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 1: casino that the police later get, and I think Melanie 540 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 1: realizes that it could have been filmed, so she wants 541 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: to go and move the car. In fact, interesting that 542 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 1: after this video emerges of someone parking Bill's car, she 543 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:56,360 Speaker 1: then explains that she found the car and moved the 544 00:34:56,440 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: car to irritate her husband for walking out. Kind of 545 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 1: a get back? Is that her story? That's right? Yes? Interesting? Interesting? 546 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friend Maureen Marr. As investigators 547 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 1: continued to search for clues, Police informed Melanie her husband 548 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:24,160 Speaker 1: was dead. I couldn't feel the ground under me, and 549 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 1: I was devastated. But there was one clue that caused 550 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:39,280 Speaker 1: investigators to question the grieving widow. A blanket found wrapped 551 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,839 Speaker 1: around her dead husband's Torso was the very same kind 552 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 1: of blanket used at the fertility clinic where Melanie maguire worked. 553 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 1: So you've got a connection back to the fertility clinic, 554 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:57,799 Speaker 1: to Kristen Quan. You told me earlier that Melanie was 555 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 1: having an affair with someone at the clinic. Yes, she 556 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 1: was having an affair with the daughter at the clinic, 557 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 1: doctor Bradley Miller. So now suddenly because the blanket from 558 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 1: the fertility clinic is found, then what does that mean? 559 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,239 Speaker 1: John Black, could you explain to me the significance of 560 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: that blanket that was from the fertility clinic where she 561 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 1: worked along with her lover. Well, that was a smoking 562 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,800 Speaker 1: gun really, Once they found that blanket and they traced 563 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:34,400 Speaker 1: it to that fertility clinic, that's where Melanie worked, and 564 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 1: they had a direct link between Bill McGuire's body in 565 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:43,919 Speaker 1: the suitcases and his wife, Melanie and her lover. Tell 566 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:48,359 Speaker 1: me something. Where was the blanket found exactly? I think 567 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,480 Speaker 1: it was wrapped around one of the body parts in fact, 568 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 1: and then there was plastic on top of that. Someone 569 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 1: went to a great deal of trouble. I mean, you think, 570 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, that finger prints would be all over 571 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,359 Speaker 1: the plastic, but it had been in water for so long. Yeah, 572 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,600 Speaker 1: anything in there is going to be compromised, Nancy, from 573 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,800 Speaker 1: an evidentiary standpoint. And you know, and I'm talking about 574 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 1: things like fingerprints. Anything particularly fragile fiber for instance, and 575 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:19,720 Speaker 1: hair you know, can be compromised. But you know, Nancy, 576 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,680 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you this fellow. We keep talking about 577 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,879 Speaker 1: him having been dismembered. That's obviously not what killed him. 578 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 1: He was shot, and he was shot multiple times. What's 579 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 1: very fascinating to me, Nancy, is the type of weapon 580 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,840 Speaker 1: that was used in this case, and specifically the type 581 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 1: of ammunition. He was shot with a thirty eight Special round, 582 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 1: which is something you see it's a revolver, okay, what 583 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,319 Speaker 1: we used to call a wheel gun. You don't see 584 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,400 Speaker 1: him a lot nowadays. But he was shot with an 585 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 1: ammunitions referred to as wadcutter. This is a round that 586 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: is if people will think at home about the kind 587 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,040 Speaker 1: of conical or cone shaped bullet that you had of 588 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,239 Speaker 1: you typically think of. Wad cutters don't look like that. 589 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,280 Speaker 1: They're flat. They're actually flushed with the end of the casing. 590 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,600 Speaker 1: They're used for target practice. But here's the interesting thing. 591 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,080 Speaker 1: When you use a wad cutter bullet, these bullets are 592 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 1: what we refer to as subsonic. So when you fire 593 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 1: these bullets into anything, they don't make as loud of 594 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 1: a cracking noise. Okay, as say, for instance, a bullet 595 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:30,920 Speaker 1: that is hypersonic. Excuse me, Joe Scott, as enthralled as 596 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 1: I am with that, and I'm not being facetious. I 597 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,839 Speaker 1: mean it, What does that have to do with who 598 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:39,719 Speaker 1: killed McGuire? I mean, in my mind, it's got to 599 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:41,960 Speaker 1: have somebody. It's got to be someone with a great 600 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,960 Speaker 1: deal of physical strength to dismember him in the manner 601 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,880 Speaker 1: in which he was dismembered. And remember you and I 602 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:54,880 Speaker 1: both keep talking about how much effort went into killing him, 603 00:38:55,400 --> 00:39:01,360 Speaker 1: dismembering him and concealing his body, John Guires, What if anything, 604 00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:07,560 Speaker 1: does the purchase are the luggage the luggage? What do 605 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:10,920 Speaker 1: we know about the luggage? Just that there was just 606 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:15,040 Speaker 1: that it was purchased a two months earlier, and they 607 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,560 Speaker 1: took it on a trip that they took with their 608 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:21,440 Speaker 1: best friends John and Susan Rice to Atlantic City. And 609 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:26,919 Speaker 1: the Rice is remember that's those three suitcases in their car. 610 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: So that's about all I know about it. Well, that's 611 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:36,360 Speaker 1: a bombshell to me because now I know that Kenneth 612 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:41,360 Speaker 1: Cole luggage three piece set was used by the family. 613 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 1: I mean, John, that's a big, big clue to me. Sure. 614 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:47,920 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, And when the police found that, and there 615 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,960 Speaker 1: were photographs of them in Atlantic City, I think with 616 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:55,240 Speaker 1: the luggage, that really tied it in. So John, Glad, 617 00:39:56,160 --> 00:40:01,440 Speaker 1: how do police tie Bill McGuire to his killer? They 618 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:05,520 Speaker 1: were well through the luggage, through the blanket that was 619 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:10,280 Speaker 1: from the fertility clinic. Melanie was also when the police 620 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:15,920 Speaker 1: formed her husband was dead and had been killed. They 621 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,200 Speaker 1: didn't tell her exactly what had happened because they didn't 622 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:21,400 Speaker 1: want to upset her, but she seemed incredibly cold and 623 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:25,399 Speaker 1: motionless and didn't have a nice word to say about him. 624 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:27,600 Speaker 1: I mean, it's one thing on a podcast to hear 625 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:31,440 Speaker 1: Melanie give her version, but the version I heard from 626 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,120 Speaker 1: everyone at the trial was very, very different. And this 627 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,719 Speaker 1: was a very cold lady. Indeed, take a listen to 628 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:43,320 Speaker 1: in Gie Mysteries, Melanie McGuire might as well have taken 629 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:48,200 Speaker 1: out a billboard on Third Avenue that said I murdered 630 00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:51,840 Speaker 1: my husband and hacked his body up. She put his body. 631 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,680 Speaker 1: It's very interesting the way she did this. She put 632 00:40:55,719 --> 00:41:01,680 Speaker 1: his body in three matching Kenneth Cole suitcases, the black 633 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:06,680 Speaker 1: and green ones. So she got expensive matching luggage in 634 00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:11,960 Speaker 1: which to hide his severed body. And one of the 635 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:17,000 Speaker 1: suitcases was a five pound weight, which shows premeditation in 636 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,319 Speaker 1: trying to get get rid of the remains. She wanted 637 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,240 Speaker 1: to sink them to the bottom of the Jersey Shore. 638 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:29,400 Speaker 1: To Christine Kwan to b CYB, Bristol, where is Melanie 639 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:33,640 Speaker 1: McGuire now? She is now in prison. She was found 640 00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:38,000 Speaker 1: guilty of guilty of murdering her husband and his now 641 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:41,880 Speaker 1: spending life in prison plus five years. To Christine Kuan, 642 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:46,040 Speaker 1: what was her defense? Her defense? I mean she has 643 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,920 Speaker 1: said even now she's saying that she is not guilty. 644 00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:54,600 Speaker 1: Who does she say did it? She had really said 645 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:58,360 Speaker 1: who she thinks it necessarily did it? But she says 646 00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 1: that she is not guilty. Well, actually she said at 647 00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:07,360 Speaker 1: trial that her defense was that it was gang related 648 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,799 Speaker 1: and that Bill had got himself into a lot of 649 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,760 Speaker 1: trouble gambling in Atlantic City, owed a lot of money 650 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:18,400 Speaker 1: to the mob, and that's who killed him. And in fact, 651 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:24,000 Speaker 1: she even faked letters from mob bosses to the prosecutor, 652 00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,760 Speaker 1: which he sent by said X, written like a mob 653 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,560 Speaker 1: boss saying we got Bill. He got what he deserved, 654 00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:34,080 Speaker 1: which kind of backfired on her because there was a 655 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,239 Speaker 1: lot of evidences she'd actually sent the letters along with 656 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,520 Speaker 1: an accompass of hers. I've never heard of the mob 657 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:44,200 Speaker 1: writing letters after the fact about what they did. This 658 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,160 Speaker 1: letter is hilarious. Please tell me, yeah. I mean it's 659 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:49,440 Speaker 1: written like a mob boss. You know, Bill got what 660 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:52,239 Speaker 1: he deserved. You know, he's he crossed us, saying he 661 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:56,160 Speaker 1: got his just desserts. And that letter was part of 662 00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:58,960 Speaker 1: the evidence at trial. I mean it sounds like a 663 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:03,880 Speaker 1: fifth grade girl a novel very much. So. Yeah, John, Glad, 664 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:07,160 Speaker 1: How is she faring behind bars? May I ask? Not 665 00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,400 Speaker 1: too well? I don't think. I saw in People magazine 666 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,919 Speaker 1: last night that one of the stars of Melrose Place 667 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:17,920 Speaker 1: is Amy Lucaine, who is there for a drunk driving charge. 668 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:20,960 Speaker 1: Is her new cell mate and they get on very well, 669 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,520 Speaker 1: but Melan has kind of devoted herself to trying to 670 00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:28,880 Speaker 1: get her case restarted. She's kind of exhausted her appeals. 671 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,400 Speaker 1: But with this podcast, he certainly generated a lot of 672 00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:38,040 Speaker 1: new interest in this case, and she's put over a 673 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:41,000 Speaker 1: total new story of what had happened. Oh, what's her 674 00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 1: new story? I can't wait to hear this. Oh that 675 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:48,160 Speaker 1: you know, she's totally innocent, and it's also cumstantial the 676 00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:53,520 Speaker 1: prosecutor's god as wrong. Also that her defense attorney did 677 00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:56,319 Speaker 1: a terrible job, and you know it was very ineffectual. 678 00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,480 Speaker 1: So that's what she's been trying to sell. But I 679 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:01,799 Speaker 1: don't think it's going to do a much good. No, 680 00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:07,560 Speaker 1: not when you lie about moving the victim's car and 681 00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:11,319 Speaker 1: you severed the body and had put it in the 682 00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:15,480 Speaker 1: family luggage. Well, the biggest clue was that actually police 683 00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:18,520 Speaker 1: found out. But literally, I think a week before Bill 684 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:22,560 Speaker 1: McGuire was killed, she went to I think it was 685 00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:29,360 Speaker 1: Ohio and purchased that thirty eight caliber gun, and that 686 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:35,000 Speaker 1: right now she purchased it, and she gave her own 687 00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,239 Speaker 1: name and her aunt's addressed and everything that that was 688 00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:42,160 Speaker 1: in the trial, and the guy recognized her that sold 689 00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:47,080 Speaker 1: it to her. So I mean talk about a smoking gun. Yeah, literally, 690 00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:48,680 Speaker 1: And let me ask you this. Did they do a 691 00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:52,399 Speaker 1: ballistics match on the on the weapon, Yes they did, 692 00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:55,600 Speaker 1: but there it was cleaned up so well where the 693 00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:59,440 Speaker 1: murder was done. They never got any residue from the 694 00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:04,560 Speaker 1: gun or anything like that. And Melanie said it wasn't 695 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:07,040 Speaker 1: a match but a trial. They said it was a 696 00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:09,880 Speaker 1: match with the ladies and bruises and everything. Well I 697 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,960 Speaker 1: doubt very serious, Lemmy. That's this triation marks on a 698 00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:18,160 Speaker 1: bullet matchup directly to only one gun. It's like a fingerprint. 699 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,560 Speaker 1: And unless she has been trained in ballistics analysis, I 700 00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,520 Speaker 1: doubt she was a match for the crime lab expert. 701 00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:29,879 Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds while Melanie McGuire cools her 702 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:35,680 Speaker 1: jets behind bars. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off Goodbye,