WEBVTT - Investment Opportunities for Oceans

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<v Speaker 1>These sees Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Tim

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<v Speaker 1>Stenevic on Bloomberg Radio. So I gotta say, Maddie, there's

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<v Speaker 1>a couple of stories over the last couple of days.

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<v Speaker 1>One was dealing with the rising waters around Venice seawalls

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<v Speaker 1>protecting the city, but it's also apparently impacting the local

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<v Speaker 1>fishing industry, possibly leading to dry canals, which could lead

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<v Speaker 1>to some problems. So there's that one going on. And

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<v Speaker 1>then there was another story that just blew my mind

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<v Speaker 1>this morning. I think it was in the New York

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<v Speaker 1>Times about a baraga storms that's resurrected what was once

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<v Speaker 1>the largest body of fresh water west of the Mississippi

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<v Speaker 1>River long time ago. We're talking the ice age, so

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<v Speaker 1>setting the stage for a disaster to spring and upending agriculture.

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<v Speaker 1>We know that there is so much going on when

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<v Speaker 1>it comes to the Earth's ebbs and flows of water. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's it's just I mean, just the Mississippi River alone,

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<v Speaker 1>like the supply chain issues that could cause the amount

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<v Speaker 1>of people whose jobs rely on Jeff Sin will happen

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<v Speaker 1>right exactly exactly, And it's just it's so critical to

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<v Speaker 1>watch and there's so much to talk about. So that

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<v Speaker 1>is why we've got our next guest here to speak

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<v Speaker 1>with us about the ocean, specifically coming back rejoining us,

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<v Speaker 1>we've got doctor Deborah Brosnan. She is head of the

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<v Speaker 1>international scientific consulting company that bears her name. The firm

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<v Speaker 1>addresses environmental risks and climate change. She's a marine scientist

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<v Speaker 1>and environmental risk expert. Joining us on zoom from Antigua,

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<v Speaker 1>Doctor Brosnin, thank you so much for being here. First

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<v Speaker 1>of all, just tell us about why you are where

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<v Speaker 1>you are right now and what you're doing there. So

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<v Speaker 1>believe it or not, I am out here in Antigua

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<v Speaker 1>and Barbauda because we're working on exactly the issues you've

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<v Speaker 1>been talking about. How do we create more resilient coastlines,

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<v Speaker 1>how do we create more resilient communities. And what we're

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<v Speaker 1>doing is we're leveraging nature. Carl reeves break ninety five

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<v Speaker 1>percent of a wave's energy and they protect the shoreline

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<v Speaker 1>from storm search but they also keep stand on the beach,

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<v Speaker 1>which helps tourism. So we are doing a major ref

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<v Speaker 1>restoration project with a man called John Paul Gagoria called

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<v Speaker 1>Ocean Shot, and we're also restoring dunes to provide a barrier,

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<v Speaker 1>and in doing so, we're providing training and local jobs

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<v Speaker 1>as well. So that's why I'm out here, because we're

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<v Speaker 1>advancing those projects and it's very exciting. Yeah, No, Jambal Djoria,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm interesting. So what I want to ask you, as

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<v Speaker 1>someone who has done a fair amount of diving and

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<v Speaker 1>seen how our coral reefs have really been ruined over

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<v Speaker 1>the last decade or so, tell us what you're seeing.

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<v Speaker 1>First of all, like where we are when it comes

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<v Speaker 1>to coral reefs around the world. We know, we hear

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<v Speaker 1>the stories about the Great Barrier reef and the bleaching

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<v Speaker 1>of the reefs. So talk to us about kind of

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<v Speaker 1>where we are and how we can get our way back.

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<v Speaker 1>So I think it's fair to say that we are

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<v Speaker 1>in a fairly dire situation with coral reefs, and coral

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<v Speaker 1>reefs have been declining. There's an estimate we've last between

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<v Speaker 1>thirty and fifty percent of reefs already and that we

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<v Speaker 1>may lose another thirty percent if we don't intervene. So

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<v Speaker 1>around the world, and I've seen it in my lifetime too.

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<v Speaker 1>When you go on the ocean. One of the areas

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<v Speaker 1>we're working on only two percent of the stony corals

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<v Speaker 1>are left on the reefs, so two percent cover and

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<v Speaker 1>that pattern has been repeated time and time in different

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<v Speaker 1>parts of the world in the tropics. But what we

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<v Speaker 1>are seeing, and here's where the good news comes in,

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<v Speaker 1>the situation is bad enough that people are really understanding

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<v Speaker 1>that we've got to start taking action. So we're seeing

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<v Speaker 1>action in several places. One is in trying to grow

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<v Speaker 1>resilient calls that are resilient against temperature rise, for instance,

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<v Speaker 1>and several groups are doing those. We have resilient calls

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<v Speaker 1>called Beta as a company that's working on them. So

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<v Speaker 1>people are investing literally investing money in growing resilient calls

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<v Speaker 1>that can then be outplanted on two weeks. We ourselves

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<v Speaker 1>are actually building reefs that will provide all of these

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<v Speaker 1>services I spoke about. And so we're seeing around the

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<v Speaker 1>world and interest in restoring coral reefs, but not at

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<v Speaker 1>a small scale, at the sort of industrial scale that

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<v Speaker 1>we need to be intervening. So both corals and the

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<v Speaker 1>restructure itself, we're seeing a lot of effort on that

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<v Speaker 1>and that is the hopeful sign. So we're starting to

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<v Speaker 1>see in some places a caral to begin to come

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<v Speaker 1>back naturally, but a lot of it to a human intervention.

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<v Speaker 1>And on that human intervention, can you talk about man

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<v Speaker 1>made coral reefs and to what extent those can be

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<v Speaker 1>effectives as kind of a replacement for the real thing.

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<v Speaker 1>I think we've got to be honest and say we're

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<v Speaker 1>going to have to help nature, and that means doing

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<v Speaker 1>manmade coral reefs, and they can be effective. We've studied

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<v Speaker 1>coral reefs enough to know what's the secret source, and

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<v Speaker 1>basically that is the structure of the reef itself that

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<v Speaker 1>it looks like it kind of looks like Manhattan. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>there's a penthouse for certain species and the basement for

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<v Speaker 1>species like lobsters. So when you create a reef, you

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<v Speaker 1>want to create all of these different all of these

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<v Speaker 1>different habitats, basically, all of these different layers, and that

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<v Speaker 1>creates the opportunity for biodiversity to come back. And so

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<v Speaker 1>we know how to build those now. We also can

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<v Speaker 1>model the effect that they have on maintaining sand on

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<v Speaker 1>the beach, so we know where should we put them,

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<v Speaker 1>how big should they be, how why should they be.

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<v Speaker 1>So we do have the science and technology. What we

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<v Speaker 1>need now is both the investment and the action to

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<v Speaker 1>do it. How quickly does a reef come back when

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<v Speaker 1>you deploy these efforts. It's a slow process, so calls

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<v Speaker 1>grow relatively slowly, but in the right conditions we can

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<v Speaker 1>get growth of a few of several inches a year,

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<v Speaker 1>which is with a lot of calls, that's actually pretty

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<v Speaker 1>good growth. That's why we need to actually build the

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<v Speaker 1>reef structure itself, so we give the call a foundation

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<v Speaker 1>to growth, so we actually get the reef back a

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<v Speaker 1>lot faster. So within a few years or even immediately undeployment,

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<v Speaker 1>we can start to see the benefits of reef and

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<v Speaker 1>over time we build up the biodiversity. If I can

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<v Speaker 1>just follow for a moment, I do wonder, with rising

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<v Speaker 1>sea levels as we build these reefs, is it a

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<v Speaker 1>case that we're going to have to kind of increasingly

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<v Speaker 1>be building the reefs closer and closer to what was

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<v Speaker 1>land but is now new rising sea levels? And can

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<v Speaker 1>you keep up or can we as a world in

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<v Speaker 1>society keep up? Now that's a good question. So I

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<v Speaker 1>think what we when we think about restoring coral reefs

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<v Speaker 1>or building reefs, We have to build reefs for the future,

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<v Speaker 1>not for what the reefs is not for what our

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<v Speaker 1>conditions are today. But if we get one for sea

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<v Speaker 1>level rise, where a three foot sea level rise, where

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<v Speaker 1>do we need those reefs in ten years, in twenty

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<v Speaker 1>and fifty years time. So we build the reefs, We

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<v Speaker 1>start the reefs so that they will be the kind

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<v Speaker 1>of reefs we need, you know, through climate change. And

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<v Speaker 1>can I back up like completely here, doctor Brosnan, because

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<v Speaker 1>I wonder if you can just explain maybe one example

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<v Speaker 1>of how coral reefs impact our environment in a way

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<v Speaker 1>that in everyday listener or viewer would be able to

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<v Speaker 1>understand who may not have had a touch point with

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<v Speaker 1>coral reefs rest research previously. Yes, how many of your

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<v Speaker 1>listeners like to walk on the beach? I'll put probably everyone.

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<v Speaker 1>And if you're walking on a tropical beach, the sand

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<v Speaker 1>that you're walking on is sand that was made from

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<v Speaker 1>a coral reef, from the erosion of the coral itself. Secondly,

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<v Speaker 1>the reason you can walk on a very beautiful tropical

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<v Speaker 1>beach is because the reef itself keeps that sand. Not

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<v Speaker 1>only makes the sand, but then it keeps it on

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<v Speaker 1>the beach. So every time you go and lie on

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<v Speaker 1>a tropical beach, say thank you to the coral reef.

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<v Speaker 1>No actually said no, it's so perfectly said. So when

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<v Speaker 1>you talk about a reef to coming back, you said

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<v Speaker 1>a few years. So is it five years? Is three years?

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<v Speaker 1>Is a ten years? Yeah, it depends on the longer

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<v Speaker 1>the reef exists, the better it gets. So if you

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<v Speaker 1>build the structure of reef and you put the reef out,

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<v Speaker 1>and if you plant calls on it's a For instance,

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<v Speaker 1>we have coral nurseries and we're growing calls just like

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<v Speaker 1>you would growth ball plants in a nursery, and then

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<v Speaker 1>we plant those called out on the reef structure. So

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<v Speaker 1>now our reef is starting to come back quickly because

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<v Speaker 1>we're getting fish and we have carls. So effectively we

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<v Speaker 1>have a reef. We have a functional reef. But over

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<v Speaker 1>two years, five years, ten years, into the next hundred years,

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<v Speaker 1>the biodiversity on that reef, if it stays healthy, will increase,

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<v Speaker 1>the fish life will increase. And so within I mean

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<v Speaker 1>we're seeing within four months, we've already seen in one

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<v Speaker 1>of our reef modules, twenty five species of fish have

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<v Speaker 1>moved on to this reef that we build. Now that's amazing.

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<v Speaker 1>So and these fish aren't there. The calls are doing fine,

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<v Speaker 1>so the system is beginning to regenerate. All we had

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<v Speaker 1>to do was give it the fighting chance and give

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<v Speaker 1>it a reef in the habitat. One thing I wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to ask you, doctor Brosdon. In the notes you shared

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<v Speaker 1>with our producer, you noted that the ocean economy is

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<v Speaker 1>worth up to six tillion dollars a year, employs three

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<v Speaker 1>hundred and fifty million people worldwide, but less than one

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<v Speaker 1>percent of the ocean's value has been invested in sustainable projects.

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<v Speaker 1>Express shocking, Yeah, tell us why that is so shocking. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's for two main reasons. One, people look

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<v Speaker 1>at the oceans as a high risk investment because everything

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<v Speaker 1>you do in the sea tends to cost more money,

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<v Speaker 1>and there has been a sense that we're disconnected from

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<v Speaker 1>the sea. The other is that when people do invest

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<v Speaker 1>in the oceans, are contribute to the oceans. It's been

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<v Speaker 1>mostly in philanthropy. But even then, philanthropy investment on the

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<v Speaker 1>oceans compared to other systems has been incredibly low. So

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<v Speaker 1>the oceans literally have been neglected. You know, they cover

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<v Speaker 1>seventy percent of the planet. If there were a country,

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<v Speaker 1>they would rank seventh in terms of GDP, and yet

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<v Speaker 1>we have put so little funding into them. The news is, though,

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<v Speaker 1>I think that is beginning to change and it's starting

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<v Speaker 1>to pick up speed. But it's not just about reefs, correct,

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<v Speaker 1>And I don't mean just because reefs are so important.

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<v Speaker 1>I get that, But tell us if you know, you

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<v Speaker 1>had your druthers and you could, you know what else

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<v Speaker 1>needs to be done in your view. So I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>obviously we've talked about this, the investment in nature based

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<v Speaker 1>solutions in the ocean, which can be mangroves, and our

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<v Speaker 1>mangroves supquests for four times more carbon than even tropical rainforests,

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<v Speaker 1>so they have a climate value as well as the

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<v Speaker 1>fisheries value. So investing in nature returns dividends for the

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<v Speaker 1>planet but also for communities in terms of fisheries and jobs.

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<v Speaker 1>So investing in nature is at first. But the other

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<v Speaker 1>place we can start to look at is renewable energy.

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<v Speaker 1>Our oceans can really both in terms of offshore winds,

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<v Speaker 1>which is a very big area people are looking in

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<v Speaker 1>right now. Food security basically seaweed, seaweed based food supplies.

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<v Speaker 1>I think fiddle as Fish got about thirty four million

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<v Speaker 1>in funding just recently, so food supply, energy, provency questration.

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<v Speaker 1>All of these areas are right for investment. And the

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<v Speaker 1>other is transportation, and we think about it, most of

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<v Speaker 1>our goods are transported by the sea and associated with transportation,

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<v Speaker 1>shipping releases eighteen percent of pollutants. So what we're beginning

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<v Speaker 1>to see is a lot of companies and a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of investors thinking about other ways to create more sustainable shipping,

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<v Speaker 1>to have more like electric vehicles. General Motors is one

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<v Speaker 1>case in point. They invested one hundred and fifty million

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<v Speaker 1>to acquire a mistake in a company called Pure Watercraft

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<v Speaker 1>that makes electric engines for boats. So really, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>everywhere we look, whether it's energy, whether it's food, whether

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<v Speaker 1>it's nature itself, whether it's jobs the ocean. It's probably

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<v Speaker 1>one of the most investable systems resources that we can

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<v Speaker 1>look at. But the upfront cost is pretty high for investors,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's not something investors often relish the opportunity for

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<v Speaker 1>if they don't have a strong sense of what their

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<v Speaker 1>return can be. But you say that the concept of

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<v Speaker 1>the ROI for investors is just not understood. What would

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<v Speaker 1>you say is the biggest thing that investors are messing

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<v Speaker 1>up in that calculation. I think investors are often looking

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<v Speaker 1>for what I would call a traditional return on investment,

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<v Speaker 1>are looking for a quick in and out, and often

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<v Speaker 1>with either renewable energy or in the ocean, that investment

0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:15.080
<v Speaker 1>tends to take longer. Where that is changing is in

0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:18.120
<v Speaker 1>the field of what's known as impact investment. So impact

0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:21.360
<v Speaker 1>investment investors are looking at getting a return on investment,

0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:26.679
<v Speaker 1>a financial return on investment, but also a quantifiable other return,

0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:30.720
<v Speaker 1>which could be carbon sequestration as well. So we're seeing

0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:35.000
<v Speaker 1>investors look at they always want a financial return, but

0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:37.920
<v Speaker 1>also seeing if there's an added value which balances out

0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:41.520
<v Speaker 1>the financial return. So I think looking at the investment

0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:45.840
<v Speaker 1>a little bit differently. Z Risking is really important for investors,

0:12:45.840 --> 0:12:48.400
<v Speaker 1>and we're beginning to see that being done in two ways.

0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:52.520
<v Speaker 1>One is this partnership, So the un Capital Fund, for instance,

0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:56.160
<v Speaker 1>is partnering with private sector and for investors that the

0:12:56.400 --> 0:12:59.439
<v Speaker 1>risks because the un Capital Fund will often be somewhat

0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:03.640
<v Speaker 1>film through big or provide funding that gets investors over

0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:07.120
<v Speaker 1>the hump of basically de risking the initial stages. So

0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:09.679
<v Speaker 1>we're seeing some of that, and oddly enough, if you

0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:13.800
<v Speaker 1>think about Biden's Inflation Reduction Act. He's put three hundred

0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:17.440
<v Speaker 1>and sixty nine billion into climate tech, and some of

0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:20.080
<v Speaker 1>that obviously is for the ocean and also renewable energies.

0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:24.200
<v Speaker 1>That alone, that incentive, that government incentive, that government policy,

0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:26.520
<v Speaker 1>if you like, has been enough to make a lot

0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:30.640
<v Speaker 1>of industries think about investing in these kind of climate checks,

0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:33.439
<v Speaker 1>including the ocean. We see it in the oil industry.

0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:37.240
<v Speaker 1>They're suddenly taking it seriously. The risks are not as great. Really,

0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:40.360
<v Speaker 1>do you feel like there's definitely a difference, you know,

0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:42.480
<v Speaker 1>I think about the stories with microplastics and I think,

0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:44.440
<v Speaker 1>my gosh, is it just too late that it's just

0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:47.200
<v Speaker 1>so insidious? Like how do you get that out of

0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:50.680
<v Speaker 1>the system. But now do you feel like the tone,

0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:54.920
<v Speaker 1>the tenor not only the talk, but the actual investments

0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:57.880
<v Speaker 1>and actions have shown that people understand we've got to

0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:01.120
<v Speaker 1>take care of the oceans. Yes, I see it changing,

0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:03.240
<v Speaker 1>and I see it changing rapidly. And where I see

0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:07.079
<v Speaker 1>it changing is it's not just in the environmental community.

0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:09.880
<v Speaker 1>I see it changing in the investment community that are

0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:12.480
<v Speaker 1>looking at the oceans obviously to the lens of investment,

0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:15.880
<v Speaker 1>but as they start to invest, they're also really aware

0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:18.880
<v Speaker 1>that the healthy ocean means healthy humans. It means they're

0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:23.080
<v Speaker 1>children are healthier. So the oceans are almost leading the

0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:27.240
<v Speaker 1>way in this investment that provides return but also gets

0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:29.640
<v Speaker 1>thinking about the kind of planet we want and the

0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:31.600
<v Speaker 1>kind of future we want to leave our kids. I

0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:34.640
<v Speaker 1>see that happening, and no one's giving up on the money.

0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:39.000
<v Speaker 1>What would you say is the single biggest mistake that

0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:42.200
<v Speaker 1>you see consumers make who mean well and want to

0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:46.080
<v Speaker 1>protect our oceans, but might be a misunderstanding about what

0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:47.880
<v Speaker 1>we can do to make a difference. And we have

0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:52.480
<v Speaker 1>about forty seconds here. I think the biggest mistake is

0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:55.800
<v Speaker 1>thinking you can do nothing. A lot of consumers don't

0:14:55.840 --> 0:14:58.040
<v Speaker 1>do anything because the problem looks so big, the oceans

0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:00.560
<v Speaker 1>is so big. The biggest mistake is to do nothing.

0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:03.560
<v Speaker 1>The best thing you can do is do something. Take

0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:06.120
<v Speaker 1>a step. Whether it's not using straws, whether it's not

0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:09.320
<v Speaker 1>using plastic. Every everything you do makes a difference and

0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:12.840
<v Speaker 1>it all adds up sunscreen, like all these different things.

0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:16.880
<v Speaker 1>You know so much to think about and so appreciated

0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:19.600
<v Speaker 1>and good luck with your work, doctor Deborah Bronson, thank

0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:21.600
<v Speaker 1>you so much for coming back with us. She's head

0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:24.720
<v Speaker 1>of Deborah Brosen and associates marine scientists. As we said earlier,

0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:28.440
<v Speaker 1>environmental risk expert joining us from Antigo where they're working

0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:31.120
<v Speaker 1>on restoring the reefs. But you do think about it, like,

0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:33.360
<v Speaker 1>if we just don't get this under control, I know,

0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:36.080
<v Speaker 1>then what we have to we have to do. I mean,

0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:39.120
<v Speaker 1>it is it is the biggest issue I think, you know,

0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:41.680
<v Speaker 1>it is the thing that outweighs all the other things

0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:43.560
<v Speaker 1>because if we're not here, what are we going to do?

0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:44.800
<v Speaker 1>Exact exactly