WEBVTT - The Matrix (1999) with Emily VanDerWerff 0:00:00.960 --> 0:00:03.920 On the Bell cast, the questions asked if movies have 0:00:04.080 --> 0:00:07.520 women and um are all their discussions just boyfriends and 0:00:07.600 --> 0:00:11.879 husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:19.320 best start changing it with the bec Del cast. Jamie, Hi, Caitlin. Hi, sorry, 0:00:19.400 --> 0:00:23.320 it's not Caitlin, it's morpheoush. I just want to tell 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:28.200 you that you're the one meet you, but I'm so 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:33.760 sexy and regular. Well that's just that you're too sexy 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:37.159 to be regular. Oh my god. Therefore you are the 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:43.199 one that is how movies work, isn't it. Wow? Well, um, okay, 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:46.280 I I accept. I accept this call to adventure, except 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:48.800 that you're gonna have to get kidnapped for reasons that 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:51.879 are a little confusing to me, and the stakes are 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:54.080 going to continue to rise from there. Sure sure, sure, 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:56.360 Oh wait, I have one more condition. Yes, yes, I 0:00:56.400 --> 0:00:59.120 need to get a little kiss at the end. Okay. Well, 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:03.960 hey Jamie, it's it's a trinity now, Hi. Hi, And 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:07.120 I just wanted to tell you that the oracle told 0:01:07.160 --> 0:01:10.200 me that I would fall in love with somebody, and 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:13.240 that somebody would be the one that's me and it's 0:01:13.280 --> 0:01:16.360 and I'm in love with you further confirming that you're 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:18.640 the one. So can I have a little kiss? Yeah? 0:01:18.680 --> 0:01:21.560 Here you go. Well, thank you. But that was a 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:25.000 very smooth intro. I think my intro is going to 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:28.320 be very somber because I feel, well, let's introduce the 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:30.560 show and then I have to make an apology and 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:33.000 then I think we can get the episode started. Sure, 0:01:33.080 --> 0:01:37.640 for sure, I have a serious apology to make. So Hi, 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:42.559 it's me Caitlin Durante. It's me Jamie loftus little tail 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:45.600 between my legs. And this is the Pectel Cast. It 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:49.920 is our show where we examine film through an intersectional 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:53.480 feminist lens, using the Bectel Tests simply as a jumping 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:57.240 off point, which of course is a media metric created 0:01:57.240 --> 0:02:00.000 by queer cartoonist Alice in Bectel, sometimes called the Bectel 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:03.280 Wallace Test. Uh. There are many variations on the test. 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:06.440 This is the one that we are currently using, where 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:11.400 two people of any marginalized gender must have names, they 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:14.280 must speak to each other, and that conversation has to 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:18.200 be about something other than a man. Ideally it's a 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:24.720 meaningful conversation that is like narratively relevant. Yes, okay, Uh, 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:27.680 do you mind if I just please, you've got the floor. 0:02:27.840 --> 0:02:32.399 I have a prepared statement really quickly. Okay, hello listeners, 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:36.399 this is Jamie Loftus. You might remember that almost exactly 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:39.800 five years ago to the day, we released an episode 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:43.640 about the movie The Matrix on this very podcast. The 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:47.920 guest was comedian Matt donnaher lovely man, who we still 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:51.720 have a friendship with. However, if you try to listen 0:02:51.760 --> 0:02:54.120 to this episode today, you will not be able to 0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:57.640 find it. And that is because as of December twenty 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:03.120 I didn't actually watched The Matrix before we recorded the episode. 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:07.480 I was very busy that week. It was the holidays, 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:12.040 and I was drunk at the recording off of Mike's 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:14.880 Hard Lemonade. Off of Mike's Hard Lemonade, as was my 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:19.119 custom at the time. I would learned years later, that's 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:23.000 actually not adorable to do. Um. So I just wanted 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:27.440 to uh apol. I've been receiving criticism for never having 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:30.760 watched The Matrix when I was twenty three. For years now. 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:33.960 It's been it's something that's uh, you know, a common 0:03:34.000 --> 0:03:36.680 criticism has been brought up to me at shows. It's 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:39.640 been tweeted at me repeatedly. It's on our Wikipedia page 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:43.440 that I've never seen the Matrix. Um it took five years, 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:48.560 but work course correcting. I'm a new person. I've been 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:53.880 uh living, laughing, loving and learning and I really liked 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:56.120 The Matrix and I'm excited for today's episode. So sorry 0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:58.320 one last time for not watching The Matrix five years ago. 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:01.040 And if I could editor allies for just a second, 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:03.560 I think it's very weird how mad everyone Wasn't me. 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:06.520 We didn't make any money out the podcast. Then there's 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:09.480 people people were mad, some of them, but there are 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:13.320 I would say, just as many people who think it's 0:04:13.360 --> 0:04:17.919 awesome that you didn't see it and still writ prepare 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:21.120 well it would be. You could be bad now because 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:23.279 now it's our job, but back then it was our hobby, 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:26.520 and um yeah I was. I don't know who knows. 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:28.839 It doesn't matter. We are doing the episode now and 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:32.760 we have a wonderful guest, so let's get her in here. Indeed, 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:36.400 she is the critic at large for Vox. She's the 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:42.279 co creator of the podcast art In. It's Emily Vanderworth. Hello, Hello, 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:45.360 it's so good to be here. And if you're wondering 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:48.559 who the skywriter was above your house, that said, please 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:51.440 watch the Matrix, Jamie. That was I learned how to 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:54.480 fly a plane just for that. You flew the plane 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:58.120 in everything. Yes I did. It's the personal touch, it 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:01.400 really really is, and that her me extra deeply as 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:05.520 a result. Yeah, well, you're also leaving out that you 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:09.200 learned to fly the plane by just like having a 0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:14.480 training software uploaded immediately into your brain floppy disc. They 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:16.920 plugged it into my brain and I was like, now 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:23.600 I can fly in nineteen twenties biplane. Cool. I'm so 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:26.480 excited for this episode, and we're so stuked that you're 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:29.120 here to talk about the movie with us. Emily. Um, 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:31.960 so this is this is our the So I guess 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:36.200 whenever we cover franchise, we're covering the first movie. This 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:41.040 episode will be released lining up with the new Matrix movie, 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:43.000 which I just I guess right at the top. I'm 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:45.880 curious if if y'all think it looks any good. I 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:50.000 can't tell. I can't tell. I think so. I think 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:53.760 it's going to be great. Yeah, Okay, I've just had 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:57.000 my ass handed to me. No I I am, but 0:05:57.080 --> 0:06:01.719 I'm a Wachowski home homer. You know, I think they're great. Uh, 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:03.640 you know, they've made a couple of movies I don't love, 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:06.360 like I think the Third Matrix is their weakest film, 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:08.320 but I still watch it all the time, so you know, 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:12.599 it's I'm excited for it. I'm excited that it's very 0:06:12.680 --> 0:06:16.120 colorful from the trailers. I'm excited for Keanu Reeves to 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:19.600 have a little rubber ducky on his head. Oh my gosh. 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:23.800 I well, because I've watched the trailer dozens and dozens 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:26.160 of times, mostly because I was like, well, first, I 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:28.719 think it's very fun and it's great, and I think 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:32.080 it makes the movie look great. I'm excited to see it. 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:34.919 But also I was trying to figure out a Halloween 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:37.479 costume for this year, and I was like, m, my 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:41.840 hair length is about the same hair length as Kanus 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:45.240 in the trailer. Maybe I'll dress up as Kanu like 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:49.760 from the New Matrix movie. But he doesn't have necessarily 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:52.640 a consistent look in the trailer. And also he like 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:57.000 doesn't necessarily look like Neo famously looks with all of 0:06:57.040 --> 0:06:59.159 his like kind of has his like John Wick hair 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:01.960 a little bit. Yeah, right, and then he's just wearing 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:07.080 like scarves and like just regular clothes and like not 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:09.360 his at least in the trailer again, like you don't 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:12.320 see him with his like black trench coat and sunglasses 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:14.120 all that stuff. So I just kind of picked a 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:18.720 random look and replicated that there's like you see him 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:21.200 for like seventeen frames or something like that. And I 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:24.000 was just like, well, this is this is my costume 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:28.640 this year, so I will share that on our Instagram. 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:31.280 But um, it was a solid costume. It was good. 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:35.640 Thank you so much. So Emily, tell us what is 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:44.160 your relationship your history with the Matrix slash the whole franchise. Yeah, 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:47.120 I saw this movie in theaters when it came out, 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:50.920 but like very late, like after the buzz had kind 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:53.960 of died down, because it was it was huge for 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:56.240 a while, and I remember I was like very irritated 0:07:56.280 --> 0:07:59.160 by the marketing because I was someone who cared about that. 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:01.440 At that time. It was like what is the Matrix? Was? 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:05.440 Like all the marketing was um. And so I saw 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:09.440 it several weeks after it opened with my then girlfriend, 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:14.120 and I remember it just it spoke to me in 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:16.840 a way I didn't entirely comprehend, but I just I 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:19.440 loved it. And then I watched it. You know, probably 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:21.960 dozens of times when it was on DVD, and I 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:25.800 saw it again a few years ago in the theater um. 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:29.840 I think it's it's one of the most perfect movies 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:33.360 ever made, like there's not really anything in it that 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:37.920 doesn't work. I kind of prefer the second one because 0:08:38.840 --> 0:08:43.440 I am a weird woman who likes imperfect babies and 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:45.760 just like holding it up and being like, your head's 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:48.680 a little dented, but I still love you. I think. 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:52.040 I think the third one. I've seen this argument of 0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:53.840 the third one, in the second one should be considered 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:55.800 one big movie, and in that case, the third one 0:08:55.840 --> 0:08:57.880 is better, but it isn't isolated thing. I do think 0:08:57.880 --> 0:08:59.920 it's The Witch House kis weakest movie, but like it 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:02.280 not bad. I enjoy watching it. But the second one, 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:06.679 I think is My Dented Little Baby. I really enjoyed 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:10.160 the second one as well. I would say I mildly 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:13.280 enjoyed it. I far prefer the first one. I agree 0:09:13.320 --> 0:09:17.520 that it's a perfect movie, and I don't know what 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:22.000 it says about me that I like perfect things. You know, 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:25.320 like liking perfect things is fine, you know, it's just 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:28.200 you know, it's it's uh, you look at that dented 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:30.280 little baby. And you're like, no, get rid of that one, 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:34.880 throw that one away. I am not like that. So 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:39.120 so yeah, that's actually a huge flow. Let the baby 0:09:39.160 --> 0:09:43.160 have a dead. Oh goodness, um, Jamie, what is your well? 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:45.640 You you did read your prepared statement. I just I 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:47.679 just give a really long winded I should have saved 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:50.440 it for here. I have never seen it. I lied 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:53.200 about it five years ago. Uh, and then I have 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:57.240 now seen it twice and I loved it. I really like. 0:09:57.720 --> 0:10:00.480 I wish I hadn't been so glad formatively out watching 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:03.240 it as a bit because it is such a good 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:07.079 movie and I've really enjoyed. Um, I don't know, I 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:09.320 feel like but with some certain movies, you're like, I 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:13.000 don't really want to engage with the fan culture around 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:15.840 certain movies. But I've really enjoyed reading more about the 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:17.960 Matrix and learning more about it. And I liked the 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:20.839 sequel and I'm interested in what the new one is like. 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:22.880 And I skipped the third one because I didn't have 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:26.760 the stamina. But I yeah, the first Matrix movie, I 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:31.280 can say with the whole heart, I loved it. What 0:10:31.320 --> 0:10:36.560 about you? I am a long, long, long time Matrix fan. 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:39.320 I saw the movie at a drive in movie theater 0:10:39.400 --> 0:10:43.439 when it came out. I was like thirteen percent didn't 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:47.000 understand it all the first time I saw it, but 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:52.120 I think on subsequent viewings I did understand. I don't 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:53.760 know if it was because like I'm thirteen and I 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:56.280 don't under like, I don't like this is confusing, or 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:58.520 if it's just because I was like distracted and with 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:02.000 my friends. Anyway, I think I had it figured out 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:05.360 by the second watch, and I've seen it like probably 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:08.520 fifty times since then. I watched this movie multiple times 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:12.120 a year. I love it. I think it's perfect, and 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:15.160 it holds up so surprisingly well for a movie from 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:19.760 because we've covered a lot of movies from this podcast, 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:24.120 and I would say almost none of them hold up, 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:29.040 but The Matrix does very much does. Yes, I'm really 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:33.280 I mean, just one of the like hottest casts ever assembled. 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:38.840 Also just a gorgeous just just everyone is so incredibly 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:42.760 beautiful of this movie. Uh, that's my contribution to the 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:46.880 discourse today. I mean, honestly, I was going to make 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:50.200 a joke about Joe Pantoliano, but like he's never been hotter, 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:54.920 He's really hot. He joey pants is hot. His goatee. 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:58.280 Even fine, I'll take it. I like, you know, the 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:00.680 thing is with Joey Fans is goot. I like when 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:05.400 someone makes a strong choice, and that's what Jelley Fans 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:09.240 is doing with the goatee. I love that for him. 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:12.520 All right, Should I recap the story and we'll go 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:15.320 from there. Let's do it, and Emily jump in whenever. 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:18.480 During the recap, we're fast and loose. Here it's an 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:25.600 open forum, okay. So we open on some images of 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:30.760 some kind of computer code. Uh. Then we meet Trinity, 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:35.280 who's played by Carrie and Moss. Some cops have her surrounded. 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:40.320 Hugo Weaving in a suit. A K agent Smith is 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:45.200 also after her. There's a fight, they chase her. She 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:48.880 seems to be able to defy gravity during a lot 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:52.280 of this fighting and running away. She also takes control 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:55.120 of the cinematography for like just a couple of seconds. 0:12:55.320 --> 0:13:00.000 So yeah, that is the opening scene is so good. 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:03.600 It it's just yeah, immediately the style and yeah, it's amazing. 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:07.920 I love it. Um. And then she escapes finally by 0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:12.600 answering a pay phone and seemingly disappearing, and we use 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:17.199 the audience seeing this for the first time in or 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:23.839 Monday whatever earlier this week. We're like, what what is 0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:28.800 going on? Oh my gosh. Then Agent Smith mentions an informant. 0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:31.600 He's talking to his other agent friends. There are these 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:35.839 like white guys in suits. He mentions an informant and 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:40.240 also the next target, someone named Neo. Then we cut 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:45.280 to Kiana Reeves, who in this world goes by Thomas Anderson. 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:49.600 Someone has hacked into his computer and is sending him messages. 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:54.760 There's mention of the matrix. I love hearing Kiana Reeves 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:57.960 just read something off of the screen. It's very compelling 0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:01.679 to me. It's very calming. I like it. Yeah, it's nice. 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:05.920 His performance in this movie is incredible. I love him 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:08.960 so much. Kianu is a national treasure. Okay, So the 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:12.280 person on his computer tells Kianu to follow the White Rabbit, 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:15.600 which ends up being a friend's tattoo, which leads him 0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:19.720 to a club where he meets Trinity face to face. 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:22.840 She's like, I know that you're trying to figure out 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:26.200 what the matrix is. By the way, you're in danger 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:29.440 and you're being watched. And then the next day at work, 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:33.120 Kianu gets a cell phone delivered to him and then 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:37.600 immediately receives a call from Morpheus, who gives him instructions 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:41.160 on how to escape Agent Smith and the other agents 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:44.960 who are after him. But Kanu is unsuccessful and he 0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:48.480 gets captured by the agents who want his help in 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:53.480 finding Morpheus, who they see as a terrorist. I liked 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:56.520 I liked that. Um. I felt like this movie could 0:14:56.520 --> 0:15:01.480 have come out almost whenever. But there you think about 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:04.360 this movie. I felt like was like the office job sequence. 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:06.480 I was like, Oh, this is such a late nineties 0:15:06.600 --> 0:15:10.200 like gen X, I hate my job. The man is 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:13.080 killing me. Like it feels like it was made just 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:16.040 Mike Judge just had some office space out takes, just 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:19.360 laying was like here you go. They just like color 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:21.640 corrected it green and they're like, and now it's these 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:24.360 are scenes from the Matrix. This is this is the 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:26.560 scene with with the bug in it, right, a little 0:15:26.560 --> 0:15:30.280 bug that goes in yes belly button. UM. When I 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:32.680 saw this movie in nine, I saw it with my 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:36.680 my then girlfriend, who had enormous Reese Witherspoon energy, UM, 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:40.120 and she was so disgusted by this. She was just 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:43.480 horrified by it and like hiding her face. And I 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:46.040 was watching it like, yeah, this is just how life is, right, 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:48.240 somebody just traps you and puts a bug in you, 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:49.880 and then you have to just walk around with it 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:52.880 inside of you. And yeah, that was when I was like, 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:54.760 this is one of my favorite movies ever because it's 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:56.440 the only one that understands what it's like to have 0:15:56.440 --> 0:15:59.760 a little bug crawling around inside you. To this day, 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:03.560 I cannot watch the bug either going into his belly 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:06.040 button or coming back out of it. I don't know. 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:09.200 I have like a weird of belly button thing where 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:14.960 I just so I loved watching it. I thought how interesting. 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:18.360 I thought it was interesting to watch. I'm stuck on 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:22.840 the phrase enormous Reese Witherspoon energy. That is, like you 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:25.320 said it as immediately I was like, I know exactly 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:29.480 what that means. Yes, yes, I I dated the girls 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:34.920 I wanted to be at that time, but yes. This 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:38.240 is the scene where Neo refuses to help the agents, 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:41.440 so they bug him and then release him, and then 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:45.280 Neo gets another call from Morpheus and Morpheus is like 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:48.440 you're the one, and he's like, what does that mean? 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:51.720 And then Trinity and a couple other people switch and 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:56.560 APOC pick Neo up. They debug him in the other 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:59.080 scene I can't watch um and then they take him 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:01.440 to meet more Pheus, who we see in the Flesh 0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:05.080 for the first time. He's played by Laurence Fishburne. Morpheus 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:09.760 gives Neo the opportunity to choose between taking a blue 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:12.800 pill and a red pill. Now, the blue pill will 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:16.440 let Neo to continue on with his life as he's 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:20.359 been living in and forget all about Morpheus and the Matrix, 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:25.240 but the red pill will give him access to the truth. Right, 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:28.160 and nobody ever thought about that idea again, like that 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:33.000 never came. No one has ever, No one has used that. 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:39.399 That's fun, imature, nefarious reasons even a little bit. No, okay, 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:43.560 So Neo takes the red pill and then Morpheus shows 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:48.640 him what the Matrix is. Basically, the Matrix is a 0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:53.600 computer simulation that most humans are plugged into so that 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:58.080 they don't know what's actually happening, which is that it's 0:17:58.400 --> 0:18:02.200 two years in the future and the artificially intelligent machines 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:05.760 grow humans like crops and use them as batteries to 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:11.720 power They're like post apocalyptic machine world. So all the 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:16.760 humans are plugged into this simulation, which basically simulates reality 0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:20.159 or some version of reality and that's what the matrix is. 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:25.160 So Morpheus and his crew unplugged Neo from the matrix. 0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:28.359 So we see him in this like pod thing that's 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:31.359 full of who I love when he's in the goo. 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:33.640 I'm a simple person, I like when he's in the give. 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:35.720 This is another scene where I was like, well, this 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:37.639 is just what life is like. Somebody unplugs you and 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:42.120 wake up in a pile of go Like that didn't 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:44.719 even registered for me. A how matter of factly that 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:46.680 is presented where it's like, well, now he's in goo, 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:48.399 and then cut to the next scene he's out of 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:51.040 the goo. Now, yeah, it is what it is, and yeah, 0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:52.439 so they take him out of the goo and they 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:57.280 bring him aboard Morpheusis ship, the Nubuchadnezzer. We meet the 0:18:57.320 --> 0:19:01.760 rest of the crew, which is Cipher, that's Joey Pants, 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:07.640 Joe Pantaliano, Mouse, Tank, and Dozer, who have all either 0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:10.879 been unplugged from the matrix or, in the case of 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:14.200 Tank and Dozer, they were born in a human society 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:17.400 called Zion and we're never plugged in to begin with. 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:21.920 So Neo learns all this stuff and has difficulty accepting 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:25.040 the whole situation at first, but then he comes to 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:28.359 accept it and starts learning more about the matrix, how 0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:32.000 to manipulate the laws of physics inside of it, how 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:36.080 to do kung fu, he learns how to jump really far, 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:41.280 things like that, and then Morpheus also explains that the 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:45.240 agents like Agent Smith a K. Hugo Weaving, are the 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:49.800 sentient programs that can kind of move throughout the matrix, 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:54.800 and they're basically designed to like keep order, and they 0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:59.399 are the main antagonistic force against the people like Morpheus 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:04.680 and his crew while they're inside the matrix. Right. Morpheus 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:08.760 also tells Neo about a prophecy that the oracle made 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:14.520 about the one. Basically, someone would be able to destroy 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:17.840 the matrix and the war against the machines and bring 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:22.639 freedom to the humans, and as it's already been suggested, 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:26.720 Morpheus believes Neo to be the one. Yeah, that's a 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:29.679 really short walk. You just have to move, oh in 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:31.880 front of an andy, Like, you don't have to do 0:20:31.920 --> 0:20:34.680 that much work. I feel like it shouldn't have taken 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:37.639 them that long, Right, it's true, it's written in the stars. 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:42.760 I do appreciate that Neo is an anagram for one, 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:47.600 not unlike my name. Caitlin Durante is an anagram for 0:20:47.600 --> 0:20:53.320 for such things as Latin dancer, U t I, nine tips, Dracula, 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:58.480 and my favorite, Lauren D Titanic, Lauren D. I got 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:02.199 to look this up. I'm looking myself up there. They 0:21:02.200 --> 0:21:04.640 haven't done it in a while. Wait, and I think 0:21:04.680 --> 0:21:06.840 I always get cranky when anagrams come up, because all 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:09.960 mines suck. But you have every all of the vowels 0:21:10.000 --> 0:21:14.240 in your dose your middle name. No, okay, yeah, mine, don't. 0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:21.360 I think that's cheating, that's yeah. But yeah, let let 0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:24.200 me let me know if either of you discover any 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:29.040 impressive anagrams of your name. In the meantime, we learned 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:34.600 that Cipher is a trader. He's the informant who has 0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:38.399 been working with the agents and who is going to 0:21:38.400 --> 0:21:42.840 sell out Morpheus because the agents want the access codes 0:21:42.920 --> 0:21:46.600 to the main frame of that human city Zion to 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:49.359 destroy the human population there. After getting a lot of 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:51.760 Joey Pants's facial hair, I'm like, well, I don't know 0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:54.040 what I expected in regards to whether he was going 0:21:54.080 --> 0:21:58.320 to be a hero or a villain, Like, okay, right, 0:21:58.440 --> 0:22:00.480 he just looks like a like a like a sad 0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:03.320 dad who came home from his office job, and it's like, 0:22:03.400 --> 0:22:05.679 my office job is fighting the machines, and I just 0:22:05.720 --> 0:22:09.240 want to join the machine. The machines have such good 0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:13.160 meats at their machine restaurants. He's like, I actually get 0:22:13.200 --> 0:22:16.200 along with the machine software guys much better, So I'm 0:22:16.240 --> 0:22:18.639 just gonna hang out with them. I think about this 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:21.159 all the time. If the Matrix is real and we 0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:24.680 are all plugged into a simulation. But then we learned 0:22:24.680 --> 0:22:27.679 about how it is actually a prison for our minds 0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:30.800 if given the opportunity to be freed from it. But 0:22:30.840 --> 0:22:33.639 then to live a life that seems very dangerous, and 0:22:33.680 --> 0:22:37.040 like the quality of living doesn't seem that great, seems 0:22:37.160 --> 0:22:41.159 cold and dark, and you have to eat like goog 0:22:41.520 --> 0:22:43.960 all the time. Like I'm like, I don't know what 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:46.120 I want to live in the Matrix. I did think 0:22:46.119 --> 0:22:48.520 it was interesting that the like I mean, the world 0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:51.400 is so carefully built out, and I like, we get 0:22:51.440 --> 0:22:53.760 all these like little questions that I would have as 0:22:53.800 --> 0:22:56.360 a viewer that they just like answer in text of like, 0:22:56.880 --> 0:22:59.479 you know, it's dangerous to tell people about the matrix 0:22:59.480 --> 0:23:02.000 when there a certain age, which was something that I 0:23:02.040 --> 0:23:04.080 thought of it like, oh yeah, that's like, if your 0:23:04.080 --> 0:23:05.919 brain is fully formed, do you want to learn that 0:23:06.000 --> 0:23:09.919 everything you've ever known as a lie? Probably not. Probably not. 0:23:10.000 --> 0:23:13.040 You probably couldn't handle it. And and that's also why 0:23:13.040 --> 0:23:15.920 I like Mouse so much. I also like Mouse because 0:23:15.920 --> 0:23:19.119 he kind of looks like We'll Poulter. But also I 0:23:19.160 --> 0:23:23.400 also like us because he's like kind I mean, he's 0:23:23.960 --> 0:23:26.480 outside of the matrix, buties like the food sucks here 0:23:26.480 --> 0:23:28.720 and I want to have sex, and I'm like, yeah, 0:23:28.880 --> 0:23:32.480 i'd feel the same way. I designed a lady computer 0:23:32.640 --> 0:23:35.600 program for me to have sex with and that's cool, 0:23:35.840 --> 0:23:39.439 little rascal, and then he like explodes to death. I 0:23:39.440 --> 0:23:41.320 know we're not bringing the sequels in, really, but the 0:23:41.320 --> 0:23:47.800 second movie suggests everyone in Zion just just fo Yeah, 0:23:47.920 --> 0:23:50.679 so maybe it was more of a personal issue for Mouse. 0:23:51.000 --> 0:23:56.040 Is he just happened to not be fucking poor Mouse? 0:23:57.680 --> 0:24:00.480 But I just that scene where he turns to Neo 0:24:00.560 --> 0:24:03.280 and he's just like, this food is bad. I'm horny, 0:24:03.720 --> 0:24:09.840 Like I love this classic Mouse. Okay, So then Morpheus 0:24:09.960 --> 0:24:13.679 takes Neo into the Matrix to see the Oracle to 0:24:13.840 --> 0:24:18.040 hopefully confirm that Neo is in fact the one, but 0:24:18.400 --> 0:24:22.720 the Oracle tells Neo that he actually isn't the one, 0:24:23.400 --> 0:24:26.400 and it's implied that it's because he does not yet 0:24:26.440 --> 0:24:30.760 believe that he's the one. On their way back out 0:24:30.760 --> 0:24:33.680 of the matrix Um, where they like have to answer 0:24:33.920 --> 0:24:39.439 phones in specific places to get safely disconnected, agents ambush 0:24:39.600 --> 0:24:42.760 Neo Morpheus, Trinity and the rest of the crew and 0:24:42.800 --> 0:24:47.240 they kidnapped Morpheus. So Neo Trinity and everyone else tries 0:24:47.320 --> 0:24:51.400 to get back, but Cipher is sabotaging them and he 0:24:51.520 --> 0:24:55.359 kills Apoc and Switch. And also this is shortly before 0:24:55.400 --> 0:25:00.600 this mouse gets shot by the agents and Sarah ammoniously 0:25:00.720 --> 0:25:03.840 moved because he was too horny to live that mouse 0:25:04.320 --> 0:25:07.720 he had to go. Makes me sad anytime anyone. I mean, 0:25:08.160 --> 0:25:11.000 they really do it an amazing job of building out 0:25:11.280 --> 0:25:13.200 the side characters that I'm like, oh, I think I've 0:25:13.200 --> 0:25:16.760 maybe heard this character speak three or four lines of dialogue, 0:25:16.800 --> 0:25:20.639 but I'm still absolutely gutted when they're killed totally. So 0:25:20.720 --> 0:25:22.840 much of it is the is the visuals, Like they're 0:25:22.920 --> 0:25:27.400 such distinct looking characters, they don't blend into each other, 0:25:27.960 --> 0:25:32.639 especially for it's it's a somewhat diverse cast, so you 0:25:32.760 --> 0:25:36.600 have like a really strong feeling for who everybody is, 0:25:36.680 --> 0:25:38.960 even if you've only heard them talk two or three times, 0:25:38.960 --> 0:25:45.600 and mostly they just talked about how they were horny, right, yeah, Okay. 0:25:45.640 --> 0:25:49.320 So meanwhile, Agent Smith is trying to break Morpheus to 0:25:49.400 --> 0:25:53.359 get access to these codes to Zion. They're basically like 0:25:53.440 --> 0:25:57.520 trying to hack his brain. And since keeping Zion safe 0:25:57.720 --> 0:26:01.200 is the most important thing that any of these characters 0:26:01.320 --> 0:26:06.119 can do, Neo, Trinity, and Tank consider pulling the plug 0:26:06.200 --> 0:26:09.800 on Morpheus so he doesn't give up these mainframe codes 0:26:09.840 --> 0:26:12.680 to Zion. But then Neo is like, no, there's got 0:26:12.680 --> 0:26:15.240 to be another way, so he and Trinity go back 0:26:15.240 --> 0:26:18.040 into the Matrix to try to save Morpheus and fight 0:26:18.200 --> 0:26:21.680 the agents, and then what follows is a couple fight 0:26:21.760 --> 0:26:27.400 sequences where Neo is dodging bullets, Trinity is flying a helicopter. 0:26:27.760 --> 0:26:30.480 They managed to save Morpheus, so you can picture what 0:26:30.560 --> 0:26:33.520 it looks like. You've all seen because you've seen it 0:26:33.560 --> 0:26:38.560 referred to in every piece of media since then. Then 0:26:38.640 --> 0:26:41.439 Neo gets stuck in the Matrix and has to face 0:26:41.560 --> 0:26:46.160 off one on one with Agent Smith. They fight, and 0:26:46.200 --> 0:26:49.520 then Agent Smith gets the upper hand and shoots Neo 0:26:49.640 --> 0:26:55.120 a bunch of times and he dies, but Trinity who 0:26:55.200 --> 0:26:59.280 is back in the real world on Morpheus's ship. It's like, Neo, 0:26:59.760 --> 0:27:03.000 you can't be dead because the oracle told me I 0:27:03.000 --> 0:27:06.240 would fall in love with the one, and I love you, 0:27:06.800 --> 0:27:08.680 so you're the one, and that means that you can't 0:27:08.720 --> 0:27:13.000 be dead, and that brings Neo back to life. This 0:27:13.080 --> 0:27:16.400 is so often written off as like, you know, the obligatory, 0:27:16.520 --> 0:27:18.600 the woman falls in love with the male love interest, 0:27:19.280 --> 0:27:21.840 and I like, textually that's true, but it's such a 0:27:21.880 --> 0:27:26.400 fucking lesbian moment. It's so much. It's just so much like, oh, 0:27:26.440 --> 0:27:28.120 I know, I've known you for a couple of days, 0:27:28.119 --> 0:27:30.520 but I'm pretty sure we're going to get married, and like, 0:27:30.600 --> 0:27:32.439 you know, nine months from now they're going to break up, 0:27:32.440 --> 0:27:37.120 but right now, yes, absolutely, it's true love. I mean 0:27:37.240 --> 0:27:40.119 I never really questioned it. I always bought it. I 0:27:40.200 --> 0:27:43.200 was just like, Yep, she loves him, and I mean, 0:27:43.359 --> 0:27:46.280 who wouldn't love Keanu Reeves when he shows up and 0:27:46.640 --> 0:27:49.760 it is all hot and amazing. Neo and Trinity are 0:27:49.800 --> 0:27:52.200 just two girls who met at a at a party 0:27:52.200 --> 0:27:56.879 at Barnard and just like hit it off, spent the 0:27:56.920 --> 0:27:59.879 next week together, and now they've been together for twenties. 0:28:00.160 --> 0:28:06.000 Thing years, similar to how Rose and Jack of Titanic 0:28:06.040 --> 0:28:12.119 Fame of the Titanic of the Titanic famously historically is 0:28:12.200 --> 0:28:17.840 another iconic lesbian romance. Absolutely about Actually this is a 0:28:17.840 --> 0:28:20.480 total tangent. But the director of Portrait of a Lady 0:28:20.480 --> 0:28:23.280 am Fire, Sleen Shama. If I didn't interview with her 0:28:23.320 --> 0:28:25.000 box if you find it, she talks about how she 0:28:25.080 --> 0:28:28.320 modeled her movie on Titanic. Yeah, yeah, wait reference we 0:28:28.440 --> 0:28:32.719 talked on that episode on Portrait of the Medium Fire. Awesome. 0:28:34.200 --> 0:28:37.080 I like when I I just love when like quote 0:28:37.160 --> 0:28:39.760 unquote art filmmakers are like, no, of course I watch 0:28:39.840 --> 0:28:45.360 fucking Titanic, Like I don't be ridiculous. Come on. So anyway, 0:28:45.440 --> 0:28:50.760 so Trinity professing her love to an unconscious Neo brings 0:28:50.880 --> 0:28:54.200 Neo back to life, and so then in the Matrix, 0:28:54.720 --> 0:28:59.120 he is able to finally defeat Agent Smith and proves 0:28:59.200 --> 0:29:03.000 that he is the one. And then the movie ends 0:29:03.040 --> 0:29:06.440 with Neo talking to someone on a pay phone. It 0:29:06.480 --> 0:29:10.120 seems to be that he's like talking to the Matrix itself. 0:29:11.040 --> 0:29:14.000 He hangs up the phone, Rage against the Machine starts 0:29:14.040 --> 0:29:19.200 playing and flies away. I didn't know that the movie 0:29:19.320 --> 0:29:21.800 ended on Rage against the Machine and anytime I was 0:29:21.840 --> 0:29:24.120 watching it with Caitlin, I was like, anytime Rage Against 0:29:24.160 --> 0:29:27.080 the Machine comes on, I'm instantly like in the backseat 0:29:27.080 --> 0:29:31.280 of my uncle's car, Like it's just instantaneous. We're late 0:29:31.360 --> 0:29:36.200 to school, he's mad, he's singing the lyrics. We're fucked. 0:29:37.320 --> 0:29:40.640 I love it. I love that. I love that ending. 0:29:40.640 --> 0:29:44.440 It is also the most about the movie. It is. Yeah, 0:29:44.480 --> 0:29:47.120 it is literally just like what if we had what 0:29:47.200 --> 0:29:51.240 if we had a nine in this movie? That and 0:29:51.440 --> 0:29:55.000 the scene where Neo has like followed the white Rabbit 0:29:55.080 --> 0:29:59.040 tattoo lady to the club and Rob Zombie is playing 0:30:00.080 --> 0:30:03.160 those are the two like, Yes, this movie is extremely 0:30:03.200 --> 0:30:06.480 from and it's it's obviously like all the tech, the 0:30:06.520 --> 0:30:09.680 cell phones and stuff is very the Nokia phone that 0:30:10.040 --> 0:30:13.240 comes out down. Yeah, every time Nokia got a shout out, 0:30:13.240 --> 0:30:16.000 I was like, good for them, Good for them. They 0:30:16.120 --> 0:30:18.640 they don't know that they're living in the best year 0:30:18.720 --> 0:30:20.480 that they're ever going to have right now, Let's just 0:30:20.560 --> 0:30:23.400 let them have it. I feel like Matrix four should 0:30:23.440 --> 0:30:27.240 bring Nokia back, like they should just yeah they If 0:30:27.240 --> 0:30:31.160 anything could it would be the fourth Matrix movie. It 0:30:31.240 --> 0:30:35.680 will completely revitalize the Nokia brand. One of my great 0:30:35.760 --> 0:30:39.080 dreams is to interview Lana Wachowski. She's famously pressed, shot, 0:30:39.080 --> 0:30:41.800 it's never going to happen, But I would just ask 0:30:41.800 --> 0:30:44.400 her about Nokia. I'd just be like, Heylan, Like, that's 0:30:44.440 --> 0:30:46.720 one of the things I hit Lana. I want to 0:30:46.720 --> 0:30:48.240 know how you feel about Nokia. Do you want to 0:30:48.240 --> 0:30:51.680 bring back the brand? Like? Are you concerned about their 0:30:51.760 --> 0:30:54.200 their market share? You know? I think we I think 0:30:54.240 --> 0:30:59.440 we have a lot in company. Um let's take a 0:30:59.520 --> 0:31:02.000 quick break and then we will come right back to 0:31:02.320 --> 0:31:13.280 discuss and we're back, all right, Where shall we begin, friends, 0:31:13.440 --> 0:31:17.880 where do you want to start? Well? Um, so, in 0:31:17.880 --> 0:31:22.800 in recent years, kind of in lieu of both which 0:31:22.800 --> 0:31:26.120 Houseki is coming out as trans women. The Matrix, especially 0:31:26.120 --> 0:31:31.400 the first movie has widely been interpreted as a trans allegory, 0:31:31.880 --> 0:31:36.240 which Emily you have written about, and I was just 0:31:36.280 --> 0:31:39.200 wondering if you could speak to that more, speak to 0:31:39.240 --> 0:31:42.640 your interpretation of the film as a trans metaphor. We'll 0:31:42.640 --> 0:31:45.720 be linking to your essay. You have no pressure to 0:31:45.800 --> 0:31:49.360 completely reiterate your essay, but actually I'm just going to 0:31:49.440 --> 0:31:51.400 pull it up and read it right. Yeah, that would 0:31:51.400 --> 0:31:55.840 actually be amazing. I mean, the basic idea of it 0:31:55.960 --> 0:32:00.400 is that if you were trans or even just like 0:32:00.560 --> 0:32:05.680 gender nonconforming, gender curious, whatever, going online was like this 0:32:05.800 --> 0:32:09.880 revolutionary new way to explore like who's your real self, 0:32:09.960 --> 0:32:13.680 who's the person that you actually want to be? And 0:32:13.680 --> 0:32:16.720 and for many many, many many years, it's been rumored 0:32:17.000 --> 0:32:20.160 that the Witch Howskis wanted switch within the film to 0:32:20.320 --> 0:32:23.320 be a woman within the matrix and a man within reality, 0:32:23.360 --> 0:32:25.760 and Warner Brothers was like, no, and Kiana Reeves, I 0:32:25.760 --> 0:32:28.480 think actually like just confirmed that that's true, this sort 0:32:28.520 --> 0:32:32.360 of long standing rumor. When when I wrote my piece, 0:32:32.400 --> 0:32:34.120 I had like tracked it down to a couple of 0:32:34.120 --> 0:32:36.200 people where I was like, Okay, I feel like it's 0:32:36.200 --> 0:32:39.400 probably true, but like I could never verified and like 0:32:39.520 --> 0:32:46.280 Kianu now has confirmed it. Thank you Kiana for yeah, um, 0:32:46.320 --> 0:32:49.520 but yeah it is. It is a movie about, you know, 0:32:49.640 --> 0:32:52.400 living a dual life. It is a movie about feeling 0:32:52.480 --> 0:32:56.080 like one person well you know, you're perceived as another. 0:32:56.240 --> 0:33:00.840 And it is very much driven by um is very 0:33:00.880 --> 0:33:03.520 much driven by these ideas of duality, and like there 0:33:03.520 --> 0:33:06.600 are just like little things like when Neo finds Trinity 0:33:06.600 --> 0:33:09.120 in the club, he says something like I wasn't expecting 0:33:09.120 --> 0:33:10.840 you to be a woman, and she says most guys 0:33:10.920 --> 0:33:14.720 don't um. And at the end, when Agent Smith is 0:33:15.240 --> 0:33:18.040 you know, beating up Neo, he continues to call Neo 0:33:18.360 --> 0:33:21.800 Mr Anderson, and Neo says, my name is Neo. It's 0:33:21.840 --> 0:33:25.200 you know, pretty classic dead naming allegory. And of course 0:33:25.200 --> 0:33:27.800 there's the famous thing of like, at the time the 0:33:27.840 --> 0:33:30.600 movie was made out, the pills that contained estrogen were read, 0:33:30.760 --> 0:33:34.280 so taking the red pill was estrogen or whatever. I think. 0:33:34.680 --> 0:33:37.640 And I say this as like the person that brought 0:33:37.680 --> 0:33:41.200 a lot of this into the mainstream by writing that essay. 0:33:41.240 --> 0:33:44.160 I think it is a little overstated that Wachowski is 0:33:44.200 --> 0:33:46.720 like Lily Wachowski has given an interview where she was like, 0:33:46.760 --> 0:33:49.040 I was not unconsciously thinking about that at the time. 0:33:49.080 --> 0:33:52.920 Now I see how it filtered in. But like creating 0:33:52.960 --> 0:33:55.800 this idea that like everything and it is an intentional allegory, 0:33:55.880 --> 0:33:58.840 I think kind of cheapens the movie and also cheapens 0:33:59.520 --> 0:34:02.960 trans storytelling in a lot of ways. But the thing 0:34:03.040 --> 0:34:05.960 that I think is is most trans about it is 0:34:06.000 --> 0:34:08.600 that the second that Neo learns that this one thing 0:34:08.600 --> 0:34:10.920 about his life is a lie, he becomes a communist. 0:34:11.440 --> 0:34:14.960 So um he he's just like I'm going to tear 0:34:15.040 --> 0:34:17.160 down modern society and blah blah blah blah blah. Like 0:34:17.239 --> 0:34:20.319 it is the thing I think gets lost a little 0:34:20.320 --> 0:34:23.440 bit and discussions of this film is how incredibly incredibly 0:34:23.560 --> 0:34:27.319 leftist it is, especially for and the sequels go even 0:34:27.360 --> 0:34:30.360 further in that regard. But yeah, like I think it 0:34:30.480 --> 0:34:33.879 is inescapable that there is a huge trans allegory read 0:34:33.920 --> 0:34:36.000 of this film. I'm just always very cautious of Like, 0:34:36.040 --> 0:34:39.520 it's not the only read of this movie that is valid. 0:34:39.600 --> 0:34:42.520 Just because two trans women made it doesn't mean the 0:34:42.560 --> 0:34:45.200 only way you can interpret it is as a trans allegory. 0:34:45.239 --> 0:34:47.800 That's just one of many ratings that sits alongside others, 0:34:47.880 --> 0:34:49.759 and like that that's not me saying that to you. 0:34:49.840 --> 0:34:52.960 That's me saying that to the internet, which is now, 0:34:53.400 --> 0:34:55.160 which is now, Like if you go on Twitter, they're like, 0:34:55.680 --> 0:34:57.960 here's this is a this is a thing. All trans 0:34:58.000 --> 0:35:00.759 people know is if you go on Twitter and you say, 0:35:00.800 --> 0:35:03.040 did you know the Matrix was a trans allegory made 0:35:03.080 --> 0:35:05.839 by two trans women and here's the reasons, you will 0:35:05.880 --> 0:35:10.120 get three thousand retweets in like an hour. Becausist people, 0:35:10.360 --> 0:35:14.080 This blows their fucking minds. They're just like, what the 0:35:14.160 --> 0:35:17.759 matrix I've seen that movie? Am I trans now? And 0:35:17.760 --> 0:35:19.600 then hopefully that like opens a door in their brain 0:35:19.640 --> 0:35:22.000 and they think about it. But yeah, it is. It 0:35:22.080 --> 0:35:24.839 is the thing, and I worry that it's the same 0:35:24.880 --> 0:35:26.480 thing that happened with the red Pill thing, which I'm 0:35:26.480 --> 0:35:28.160 sure we're going to we'll get into where the whole 0:35:28.160 --> 0:35:30.120 thing is, like, this is what the movie is about, 0:35:30.480 --> 0:35:32.759 and like, no movie this good is about one thing. 0:35:32.880 --> 0:35:36.640 So yes, trans allegory, but don't I wouldn't just boil 0:35:36.680 --> 0:35:38.239 it down to that except on Twitter if I want 0:35:38.239 --> 0:35:41.320 to get retweets. I mean, if you need some engagement, 0:35:41.360 --> 0:35:43.360 it's always going to be there in your back pocket, 0:35:43.480 --> 0:35:47.359 and exactly I can. I'll take that for view. Thank 0:35:47.560 --> 0:35:50.319 thank you for for for kind of unpacking that I 0:35:50.360 --> 0:35:53.480 think that it is, like, um, it's been interesting to 0:35:53.560 --> 0:35:55.960 watch the I mean even in truly the five years 0:35:55.960 --> 0:36:00.360 that I was not watching this movie, the conversation around 0:36:00.440 --> 0:36:03.120 this movie has changed so significantly, and a lot of 0:36:03.160 --> 0:36:07.520 it is because of your work, And I think it 0:36:07.640 --> 0:36:09.840 is like fascinating how many different ways there are to 0:36:10.520 --> 0:36:15.200 look at this movie and how the leftist read really 0:36:15.239 --> 0:36:17.640 stuck out to meet this time as well, and which 0:36:17.680 --> 0:36:22.000 makes it I think even more baffling and like awful 0:36:22.120 --> 0:36:24.959 that the red Pill discussion went the way it did 0:36:25.120 --> 0:36:28.000 because it's like, well, he's clearly being radicalized in a 0:36:28.160 --> 0:36:34.239 very particular direction. Did you watch the movie? Yeah, I 0:36:34.320 --> 0:36:37.640 remember when that piece published the Matrix piece on the 0:36:37.680 --> 0:36:42.160 twentieth anniversary of the movie, so b March nineteen. I 0:36:42.200 --> 0:36:44.359 just know when the Matrix came out. That's a thing 0:36:44.400 --> 0:36:47.400 that I just know. Um, there were so many people 0:36:47.440 --> 0:36:51.160 who tweeted that piece out, who like very prominent names 0:36:51.480 --> 0:36:54.279 within journalism, within the media, etcetera, who were just like, 0:36:54.320 --> 0:36:57.080 I thought this movie was a conservative screen because it 0:36:57.120 --> 0:37:00.600 had been like taken over by the red Pill people, 0:37:01.160 --> 0:37:03.000 and you know, they'd seen the Matrix, but they hadn't 0:37:03.000 --> 0:37:04.960 seen it in twenty years or whatever, so it had 0:37:05.080 --> 0:37:07.920 like calcified in their mind based on who was obsessed 0:37:07.960 --> 0:37:10.319 with it. So I do like the fact that there 0:37:10.400 --> 0:37:12.120 is this trans reading of it now because it has 0:37:12.200 --> 0:37:14.920 liberated the movie from this sort of fate it was 0:37:14.960 --> 0:37:17.840 going to meet. That would be similar to something like 0:37:17.960 --> 0:37:21.040 fight Club, where it is now just totally defined by 0:37:21.040 --> 0:37:23.640 its bad fans, even though you know it is not 0:37:24.200 --> 0:37:28.080 necessarily the movie they're selling it as right, And I 0:37:28.080 --> 0:37:30.680 think I think it's been really cool to Um, I 0:37:30.719 --> 0:37:33.080 don't know, I'm curious of in your thoughts and this 0:37:33.200 --> 0:37:36.200 as well, Emily, how Lana and Lily Wachowski have kind 0:37:36.200 --> 0:37:39.439 of engaged with the trans reading of the movie where 0:37:39.480 --> 0:37:42.880 it feels like I like their I like their style 0:37:42.960 --> 0:37:45.440 of like responding to stuff like this a lot, because 0:37:45.440 --> 0:37:48.600 it seems like they never bring up new reads of 0:37:48.640 --> 0:37:50.640 the movie, but it's brought to them and they're like, 0:37:50.880 --> 0:37:55.200 oh yeah, yeah, that's like that is like, UM, I 0:37:55.239 --> 0:37:56.799 don't know. I think that that the way that they 0:37:56.880 --> 0:38:00.239 engage with fans of the Matrix is so smart because 0:38:00.239 --> 0:38:02.319 it's not like they're resisting doing so at all, but 0:38:02.360 --> 0:38:05.040 they're all also not like, I don't know, going the 0:38:05.120 --> 0:38:08.040 other way that directors do sometimes where they're over engaging 0:38:08.160 --> 0:38:11.000 and creating new cannon and I don't know, I just 0:38:12.120 --> 0:38:16.439 they're so fucking cool. It's wild. Lily, Lily Witchusky works 0:38:16.440 --> 0:38:19.920 on this really great showtime show called Work in Progress, Um, 0:38:20.000 --> 0:38:24.120 and I got a chance to talk to her. I 0:38:24.160 --> 0:38:25.520 got a chance to talk to her a couple of 0:38:25.600 --> 0:38:27.239 years ago for that show, and I was like, how 0:38:27.239 --> 0:38:29.520 do I not just make this interview about the Matrix? 0:38:29.719 --> 0:38:31.960 Because she had the other people that work on that 0:38:32.000 --> 0:38:33.839 show with her there, so I had to also ask 0:38:33.920 --> 0:38:37.600 them questions, and I finally came up with, how is this, 0:38:37.880 --> 0:38:40.359 you know, this tiny little TV show that you make 0:38:40.480 --> 0:38:44.840 basically independently, how is that any continuum with the Matrix? 0:38:44.880 --> 0:38:47.040 And her answer was basically just like, I'm always trying 0:38:47.080 --> 0:38:49.120 to talk about the same things and it doesn't matter 0:38:49.200 --> 0:38:51.640 the size of the story. And I was like, thank you, 0:38:51.680 --> 0:38:57.160 Lily Witchowski, that's a great answer to that question, so amazing. Yeah, 0:38:57.440 --> 0:39:00.920 I just to kind of go back to the idea 0:39:01.040 --> 0:39:03.440 that a piece of media like this, especially because the 0:39:03.480 --> 0:39:07.839 director's intent was not specifically at the time to make 0:39:07.920 --> 0:39:11.640 this trans allegory. Because they're both trans women, it stands 0:39:11.680 --> 0:39:15.680 to reason that they might have written certain just little 0:39:15.719 --> 0:39:19.600 details or themes or something like that into the story 0:39:19.760 --> 0:39:24.600 kind of unconsciously, almost or subconsciously, but as you stated, 0:39:24.640 --> 0:39:30.000 because it wasn't like deliberately created as this specific allegory 0:39:30.120 --> 0:39:32.920 from a very intentional place. Because there are some movies 0:39:32.960 --> 0:39:37.399 that are like, whatever, what's his fate? Darren Aronofsky being like, yeah, 0:39:37.600 --> 0:39:41.680 mother exclamation point is that you've got like charts behind them. 0:39:41.760 --> 0:39:44.920 He's like, the allegory is very precise. You're like yeah, 0:39:44.960 --> 0:39:46.440 and then you watch the movie and you're like, what 0:39:46.520 --> 0:39:48.439 do you even what are you trying to say here? 0:39:48.719 --> 0:39:51.920 But like, the thing with a lot of metaphor and 0:39:52.040 --> 0:39:56.920 allegory found in art and in narratives is that it 0:39:57.040 --> 0:40:01.239 wasn't necessarily intentional, um, which does mean that it is 0:40:01.320 --> 0:40:04.000 open to interpretation. And I think that's just like a 0:40:04.040 --> 0:40:08.400 really cool thing about this movie and about the franchise, 0:40:08.680 --> 0:40:12.200 and not only that the movie explores all these like 0:40:12.600 --> 0:40:16.920 philosophical things. I remember I took a class as a 0:40:16.920 --> 0:40:19.640 freshman in college and wrote a paper about the matrix. 0:40:19.760 --> 0:40:22.480 So I'm sure you can imagine how brilliant of a 0:40:22.560 --> 0:40:24.920 piece of writing that was. But it was a class 0:40:24.960 --> 0:40:28.680 called like Philosophy, Art and Film, and you had to 0:40:28.719 --> 0:40:32.640 like watch a movie and then take like a philosopher's 0:40:33.400 --> 0:40:37.400 philosophy and then apply it to the movie. So I 0:40:37.400 --> 0:40:41.239 don't even know what philosophy I was trying to like 0:40:41.680 --> 0:40:44.440 attach to the matrix, but I remember I was I 0:40:44.480 --> 0:40:46.839 was like, oh my god, I'm so freaking deep right now, 0:40:46.880 --> 0:40:49.359 I'm so about this movie is about choice and it's 0:40:49.360 --> 0:40:53.640 about duality, and it's about fate or what if there's 0:40:53.680 --> 0:40:56.879 not fate, and like just like all this stuff, and 0:40:57.120 --> 0:40:59.319 I don't know, I feel like this movie is just 0:40:59.600 --> 0:41:02.480 so rich in that way that it is open to 0:41:02.520 --> 0:41:06.120 a lot of interpretations and a lot of analysis from 0:41:06.120 --> 0:41:10.399 many different perspectives. So our eighteen year old self sort 0:41:10.440 --> 0:41:14.080 of totally vibe that's what you're saying. Just just talks 0:41:14.200 --> 0:41:16.200 talks the matrix and be like, you know what's kind 0:41:16.200 --> 0:41:22.640 of about every philosophy, right, That's like part of what 0:41:22.760 --> 0:41:25.160 makes this movie so cool and why I feel like 0:41:25.200 --> 0:41:27.759 there there are so many different lenses to view with 0:41:27.880 --> 0:41:30.960 its like there is a trans allegory in here. There 0:41:31.080 --> 0:41:33.839 is a like leftist radicalization in there, and it's because 0:41:33.840 --> 0:41:37.560 it's so unique to who these filmmakers are. So it's like, 0:41:37.680 --> 0:41:40.520 of course all this stuff is showing up. And I like, 0:41:41.360 --> 0:41:44.839 I mean, there are two of the most distinct filmmakers 0:41:44.960 --> 0:41:48.840 in the entire world, like and and I really like, 0:41:48.960 --> 0:41:52.840 I mean just truly, as a new convert to the 0:41:52.880 --> 0:41:56.160 matrix fandom, I was so blown away and impressed with 0:41:56.480 --> 0:41:59.640 how many I mean you said now Aronofsky is stuck 0:41:59.640 --> 0:42:02.279 in my mind because this is what I struggle with 0:42:02.280 --> 0:42:05.000 with him in certain cases, as like, you know, the 0:42:05.040 --> 0:42:08.440 Waaskis are able to take so much complicated stuff and 0:42:08.480 --> 0:42:12.760 make it fun and engaging to watch and it's moving 0:42:12.800 --> 0:42:15.640 the story, where like other filmmakers are like really getting 0:42:15.680 --> 0:42:17.439 bogged down and trying to let you know that they've 0:42:17.480 --> 0:42:21.359 read a book and you're like it's fine, Like I 0:42:21.400 --> 0:42:24.360 believe you, but I'm so bored and I don't know. 0:42:24.400 --> 0:42:29.720 They're just they're so fucking smart. Um, you know, I think, um, 0:42:30.040 --> 0:42:33.720 this is the famously a movie, Um that it blends 0:42:33.719 --> 0:42:36.400 a whole bunch of influences. You know, it blends in anime, 0:42:36.440 --> 0:42:40.160 at blends in also known as kung fu movies, It 0:42:40.200 --> 0:42:42.360 blends in like like there's a lot of James Cameron 0:42:42.440 --> 0:42:44.640 in this movie, which I don't know that I every 0:42:44.680 --> 0:42:47.160 time I rewatched him, Like this is like this is 0:42:47.320 --> 0:42:50.400 very on a line with like Aliens or True Lies 0:42:50.480 --> 0:42:53.920 or some of those movies. And I think that people 0:42:54.360 --> 0:42:58.000 miss how many like intellectual influences are also in there, 0:42:58.040 --> 0:42:59.680 and like so like the trance stuff is in there, 0:42:59.760 --> 0:43:02.040 the pilosophy stuff is in there, but also just like 0:43:02.640 --> 0:43:05.200 they clearly had read a lot of you know, Gnome 0:43:05.320 --> 0:43:08.759 Chompski and stuff that just gets dropped in there. But 0:43:08.800 --> 0:43:11.560 it's all in the package of this huge, big budget 0:43:11.719 --> 0:43:14.799 action movie that totally works as an action movie. You 0:43:14.840 --> 0:43:17.759 can detach from all of that and still enjoy this. 0:43:17.920 --> 0:43:20.360 It's and I think that's why it's so perfect is 0:43:20.360 --> 0:43:23.680 because it works on like sixteen levels at once. I 0:43:23.760 --> 0:43:30.040 read on our favorite scholarly journal Wikipedia that the Lilian 0:43:30.080 --> 0:43:35.320 Lana Wichowski required the cast to be able to explain 0:43:35.840 --> 0:43:41.040 what the Matrix is and they made them read and 0:43:41.080 --> 0:43:47.719 I'm not going to pronounce this correctly, but simulacra and 0:43:48.000 --> 0:43:54.120 simulation from French philosopher Jean bald God Jean or something. 0:43:57.120 --> 0:44:02.160 I do not speak French, but um yeah, the Witch 0:44:02.160 --> 0:44:05.000 House kis were like, Kianu Reeves, We're going to require 0:44:05.080 --> 0:44:09.759 that you understand a lot of heavy philosophy to be 0:44:09.840 --> 0:44:12.160 able to be in this movie. I love that. And now, 0:44:12.280 --> 0:44:14.920 just like knowing what sort of person Kianu rees is, 0:44:14.960 --> 0:44:17.200 at least in the public facing way, you're just like, 0:44:17.480 --> 0:44:20.080 he was so down for that. I don't know. There 0:44:20.120 --> 0:44:22.440 we talked about this in the Matrix episode that no 0:44:22.480 --> 0:44:27.840 longer exists, but I used to work at a bookstore 0:44:27.920 --> 0:44:30.520 as my first I worked at book Soup in l 0:44:30.560 --> 0:44:32.279 A and that was my first job when I moved here. 0:44:32.320 --> 0:44:34.560 And Kianu Reeves would come every Wednesday night on his 0:44:34.640 --> 0:44:39.200 motorcycle and get a new book and Sudoku puzzles and 0:44:39.600 --> 0:44:41.920 he's a he's a bookhead. I think it's so cool 0:44:41.960 --> 0:44:44.640 that that they gave him homework. I also just like, 0:44:44.880 --> 0:44:46.960 as someone who does not have the confidence to give 0:44:47.000 --> 0:44:49.760 someone homework, I love that the witch House skis were like, Yeah, 0:44:49.920 --> 0:44:52.759 you're gonna need to get a library card and really 0:44:52.760 --> 0:44:55.080 put in some hours because the test is on Monday. 0:44:56.000 --> 0:44:58.040 Before I would agree to come on the show, I 0:44:58.120 --> 0:45:01.680 required you both to read Jock Alldy yards uh similar 0:45:01.800 --> 0:45:03.799 cromin Simulation. So I'd like to leave like a ten 0:45:03.840 --> 0:45:06.959 minute discussion of that right now. And what your thoughts were? Yes, yeah, 0:45:07.400 --> 0:45:10.480 so I thought it was really good. I liked it. 0:45:12.960 --> 0:45:17.040 What's your favorite plot twist? I thought it was a 0:45:17.239 --> 0:45:22.279 derivative if you're asking me. I liked when Simulacra and 0:45:22.320 --> 0:45:24.360 Simulation met for the first time. I thought it was 0:45:24.360 --> 0:45:27.760 so I love when they kiss at the end. So romantic, 0:45:27.840 --> 0:45:31.879 I know. And you're like, Simulation loved Simulacra so much 0:45:31.920 --> 0:45:35.560 the whole time, and Simulacra had no idea, but then 0:45:35.560 --> 0:45:37.799 when they heard it, they were It was just I 0:45:37.800 --> 0:45:42.279 thought it was beautiful. Another iconic lesbian romance exactly. I 0:45:42.320 --> 0:45:43.759 did think it was a little weird when it was 0:45:43.800 --> 0:45:47.439 revealed that they were the same person, but that's also 0:45:47.680 --> 0:45:51.759 iconic lesbian cinema. So yeah, I I you know, I 0:45:51.880 --> 0:45:57.120 liked the duality. I liked the tone, I liked the ideas, 0:45:57.200 --> 0:46:01.600 and I loved reading the index. Also, we're all we're 0:46:01.640 --> 0:46:04.399 all going to have somebody with high as skywriter above 0:46:04.400 --> 0:46:11.960 our houses to say reads Simulation, you assholes reads I 0:46:12.080 --> 0:46:16.279 dare you? Oh my gosh, I yeah, I just god, 0:46:16.320 --> 0:46:18.440 I love I mean, there is a part of that 0:46:18.480 --> 0:46:20.880 anecdote that makes me feel like I'm being like I 0:46:20.960 --> 0:46:23.400 was like, oh yeah, this is this is kind of 0:46:23.440 --> 0:46:26.279 just a simulation of being in the d s A 0:46:26.560 --> 0:46:29.040 where everyone's like, have you read this book, and you're like, 0:46:29.719 --> 0:46:32.280 I haven't. I just want everyone to have health insurance. 0:46:32.320 --> 0:46:38.520 I'm sorry. The thing that this is this is A 0:46:38.680 --> 0:46:40.839 tweeted about this several times. The thing that like like 0:46:40.960 --> 0:46:42.920 most makes me stand out at like when I hang 0:46:42.920 --> 0:46:45.440 out with with other leftists, is like, I have super 0:46:45.560 --> 0:46:50.440 normy pop culture days. I'm yeah, well you know, I like, 0:46:50.600 --> 0:46:54.319 you know, these extremely mainstream HBO shows and they're like, 0:46:54.360 --> 0:46:58.240 what about this? And I don't know. That's fine too. 0:46:58.840 --> 0:47:02.080 You want to talk about six USh and everybody, right right, 0:47:02.120 --> 0:47:05.680 I know, it's just I, um the leftist. I mean, 0:47:05.960 --> 0:47:08.239 I love him to death. And make room for us 0:47:08.280 --> 0:47:10.920 basic gals because we have something to bring to the 0:47:10.960 --> 0:47:15.040 table too. Yeah, you want to listen to Taylor Swift together. 0:47:15.239 --> 0:47:18.160 You want to recruit people into the movement, you gotta 0:47:18.160 --> 0:47:23.520 be able to talk about what happened on Succession last week. Sorry, um, 0:47:23.640 --> 0:47:25.680 let's take another quick break and then we will come 0:47:25.719 --> 0:47:36.480 back for more discussion, and we're back. One last comment 0:47:36.560 --> 0:47:40.160 on the homework section. I just like that that section 0:47:40.320 --> 0:47:44.600 ends with Carrie and Moss commented that she had difficulty 0:47:44.680 --> 0:47:50.719 with this process. Kotu was like, yes, more books, and 0:47:50.840 --> 0:47:53.480 She's like, I did not sign up for this. I 0:47:53.520 --> 0:47:55.480 thought I was going to be wearing a jacket and fighting. 0:47:55.880 --> 0:47:59.320 I mean, I don't know how much of her fighting 0:47:59.360 --> 0:48:02.600 in the movie is like stunt people, but it seems 0:48:02.600 --> 0:48:05.200 like a lot of the actors were like trained in 0:48:05.719 --> 0:48:08.960 martial arts and doing a lot of their own stunts 0:48:08.960 --> 0:48:13.600 and fight choreography, which is very impressed by. So she 0:48:13.680 --> 0:48:16.680 was probably just busy learning like martial arts, and she 0:48:16.719 --> 0:48:19.080 didn't have time to read a book, much like us. 0:48:19.760 --> 0:48:24.239 I remember Laurence Fishburne was on Hannibal and Um I 0:48:24.280 --> 0:48:26.799 talked to Brian Fuller a lot around that show, and 0:48:26.880 --> 0:48:29.879 he was like, sometime between season one and season two, 0:48:30.040 --> 0:48:32.360 Lawrence fishburn came to him and was like, listen, Briant, 0:48:32.400 --> 0:48:34.880 I have all this kung fu training from the Matrix. 0:48:35.440 --> 0:48:37.279 Can I get in a fight? And like, there's an 0:48:37.320 --> 0:48:40.520 amazing fight in season two that was inspired entirely by 0:48:40.560 --> 0:48:42.279 him being like, Brian Fuller, I know how to fight, 0:48:42.320 --> 0:48:44.319 Please let me fight. So, yeah, they did a lot 0:48:44.320 --> 0:48:47.080 of their own stuff. Yeah, that's so cool. I guess 0:48:47.120 --> 0:48:48.719 if I knew how to do kung fu, I would 0:48:48.760 --> 0:48:51.160 just try to work it into whatever I did for 0:48:51.200 --> 0:48:55.800 the rest of my life. Also, that's so cool. Really 0:48:55.840 --> 0:48:58.040 hard to do in an audio medium, is the thing. 0:48:58.200 --> 0:49:01.120 But yeah, I would definitely try and work. At end 0:49:01.160 --> 0:49:04.200 of season three of Our yeah, I mean just just 0:49:04.320 --> 0:49:09.520 again leak leak the zoom call, you know, our hair 0:49:09.600 --> 0:49:13.400 looks great. We have kung fu skills to show off. 0:49:13.960 --> 0:49:18.520 What are we doing? I wanted to talk about the 0:49:18.560 --> 0:49:23.479 film itself, the narrative, the characters, because I think we've 0:49:23.520 --> 0:49:26.440 got an interesting cast of characters here, and I think 0:49:26.440 --> 0:49:29.920 one of the reasons the movie holds up as well 0:49:29.920 --> 0:49:31.520 as it does. I think one of the reasons that 0:49:31.640 --> 0:49:34.320 I was so attached to it as a young person 0:49:35.000 --> 0:49:39.840 is like the badassary of Trinity. And this was like 0:49:39.880 --> 0:49:43.200 the bulk of our conversation on the again first version 0:49:43.239 --> 0:49:47.120 of this episode that no longer exists. But um, the 0:49:47.200 --> 0:49:51.719 tapes we should we should drop. We still have the 0:49:51.800 --> 0:49:53.840 audio file in our Google drive. We should drop a 0:49:53.920 --> 0:49:56.680 little because that was fun for our listeners to go 0:49:56.719 --> 0:49:58.719 back and be like, wow, Jamie didn't make a definitive 0:49:58.719 --> 0:50:03.360 statement the whole I am interesting. So yeah, maybe on 0:50:03.400 --> 0:50:06.480 our Patreon will like leak a couple of minutes or something. 0:50:08.120 --> 0:50:14.880 Shame anyways, But um, I feel almost like simple being like, yeah, 0:50:15.000 --> 0:50:18.319 Trinity is so cool and badass, and like watching her 0:50:19.239 --> 0:50:23.640 fight competently and like know how to hack, and like, no, 0:50:24.120 --> 0:50:27.440 she's just she's equipped with with a lot of skills. 0:50:27.480 --> 0:50:31.319 But I never felt that she fell into like the 0:50:31.440 --> 0:50:34.799 Merry Sue type. I like it's implied that she's had 0:50:34.840 --> 0:50:36.960 extensive training to Like, the more you get to know 0:50:37.040 --> 0:50:39.759 her character, it's like, you know, how why why she 0:50:39.800 --> 0:50:43.400 can do what she does? Write different characters, and it's 0:50:43.440 --> 0:50:50.200 often like the villains are constantly underestimating her. Also where 0:50:50.239 --> 0:50:53.719 there's like the movie opens on that sequence where there's 0:50:53.719 --> 0:50:56.279 like a cop who's like, oh, we can handle one 0:50:56.360 --> 0:51:00.760 little girl, and then Agent Smith, who know who Trinity 0:51:00.920 --> 0:51:06.759 is and like understands the extent of her capabilities, is like, no, Lieutenant, 0:51:06.920 --> 0:51:10.680 your men are already dead. And that was an amazing 0:51:11.360 --> 0:51:15.040 Hugo Weaving impression. Thank you so much. That was good. 0:51:15.080 --> 0:51:18.359 That was good. How did those gorgeous lips just like, 0:51:18.560 --> 0:51:22.719 just like Mr Hugo does Hugo Leaving weavings. Lips are 0:51:23.000 --> 0:51:25.360 so distracting in this movie, And I like in a 0:51:25.440 --> 0:51:27.520 good way, but I was just like, I just wasn't 0:51:27.560 --> 0:51:31.560 expecting those beautiful lips out that whole time. Wow, there's 0:51:31.560 --> 0:51:35.040 a part at the very end it's like the final 0:51:35.120 --> 0:51:39.480 battle between him and Neo, and again he's constantly calling 0:51:39.560 --> 0:51:43.600 Neo Mr Anderson throughout the whole movie, and his voice 0:51:43.600 --> 0:51:46.160 gets really gravelly at one point, and he's just like 0:51:46.960 --> 0:51:55.080 Mr Randerson, It's incredible, and then like Neo Neo kind 0:51:55.080 --> 0:51:58.160 of like flexes and like you see dust come off 0:51:58.200 --> 0:52:00.520 of his shirt and then he just like starts to 0:52:01.160 --> 0:52:04.880 be Agent Smith's ass uh, it's so good anyway. My 0:52:04.960 --> 0:52:12.520 point is people people are often underestimating trinity, which is 0:52:12.680 --> 0:52:19.000 something that many women can identify with. Um, even Neo, 0:52:19.400 --> 0:52:23.040 like you mentioned Emily Um, there's that scene where he's like, oh, 0:52:23.160 --> 0:52:26.120 you're the Trinity who cracked the I R S D 0:52:26.280 --> 0:52:29.239 base and she's like, yes, but that was a long 0:52:29.239 --> 0:52:32.600 time ago. I'm humble. And then he's like, oh, I 0:52:32.680 --> 0:52:35.520 just thought you were a guy, and she's like most 0:52:35.560 --> 0:52:38.560 guys do. Um. I don't know, just like those little 0:52:38.800 --> 0:52:42.120 nuggets in there, they're kind of like not like throwaway 0:52:42.160 --> 0:52:45.960 moments really, but just like little details that I found 0:52:46.280 --> 0:52:50.239 made that character just like especially relatable and and I 0:52:50.280 --> 0:52:52.080 like that it's like they're not I don't know. There 0:52:52.080 --> 0:52:54.120 are certain movies where it's like those moments come off 0:52:54.160 --> 0:52:56.279 as extremely over the top, and like I feel like 0:52:56.320 --> 0:52:58.600 we've talked about a lot of action movies where there's 0:52:58.680 --> 0:53:02.719 like the like you're a googoogo girl, like in the 0:53:02.760 --> 0:53:05.759 middle of a scene. But it's just like, even though 0:53:05.920 --> 0:53:09.280 that moment happens, it's just a natural part of the scene, 0:53:09.320 --> 0:53:13.120 and it's not like the reaction from Neo isn't like 0:53:13.600 --> 0:53:16.280 I found out that like a woman is an incredible 0:53:16.280 --> 0:53:18.600 hacker and I'm upset about it. He's just like, Oh, 0:53:18.719 --> 0:53:20.880 I guess my assumption was wrong. And then the scene 0:53:20.880 --> 0:53:23.520 continues and it's like, Oh, I didn't realize that. What 0:53:23.560 --> 0:53:25.799 a relief that is to watch someone react like that. 0:53:26.239 --> 0:53:29.600 The sympathy of that moment in that scene is with Trinity, 0:53:29.680 --> 0:53:32.000 and that's why it works because you're like, you're like, oh, 0:53:32.040 --> 0:53:34.960 she's been underestimated. That fucking sucks because I already know 0:53:35.080 --> 0:53:37.800 she can kick people in the face, you know or whatever. 0:53:39.000 --> 0:53:41.160 You mentioning how how much hacking is in this movie 0:53:41.200 --> 0:53:43.600 reminds me. This is other influence in the film that's 0:53:43.640 --> 0:53:47.000 totally been forgotten, which is mid nineties movies about the 0:53:47.000 --> 0:53:50.279 Internet that trying to like personify like this is just 0:53:50.360 --> 0:53:53.560 Sonder blocks the Net, but like a little bit better, 0:53:53.840 --> 0:53:58.080 you know, Yeah, the net. We should cover the net. 0:53:58.160 --> 0:54:00.839 We should cover the net. We've covered hack. I'll come 0:54:00.840 --> 0:54:03.480 on to talk about the net anytime, please come back 0:54:03.480 --> 0:54:07.399 into the net. Oh my god. Um. There's another small 0:54:07.440 --> 0:54:11.200 moment that's like again very fleeting, but just like relatable 0:54:11.239 --> 0:54:15.120 and and I really appreciated it where Neo has taken 0:54:15.160 --> 0:54:18.319 the red pill. They're kind of like preparing him to 0:54:18.600 --> 0:54:22.320 be unplugged from the matrix and like Trinity is hooking 0:54:22.400 --> 0:54:25.400 him up to a bunch of like apparatus and Neo 0:54:25.520 --> 0:54:28.279 is just like, you did all this to Trinity and 0:54:28.320 --> 0:54:30.840 she was just like mm hmmm. So like it was 0:54:30.880 --> 0:54:34.200 just like a nice moment where he like recognizes that 0:54:34.320 --> 0:54:36.400 she probably put in all of this effort and like 0:54:36.440 --> 0:54:38.400 did all this work and like set up this whole thing, 0:54:38.520 --> 0:54:41.520 especially now that he knows that she's the one who, 0:54:41.560 --> 0:54:45.600 like how's all these amazing like hacking and computer skills. 0:54:46.000 --> 0:54:48.359 And then she's just like uh huh, yeah I did that, 0:54:48.480 --> 0:54:51.680 like very matter of fact ye, And he's just like cool. 0:54:51.840 --> 0:54:54.280 And because like so many movies, like you said, Jamie, 0:54:54.280 --> 0:54:56.719 there would be if we saw a woman like doing 0:54:56.760 --> 0:55:00.120 something impressive, or we saw like you know, kicking or 0:55:00.280 --> 0:55:06.439 hacking or something, the guys would be like what boner right, right, yeah, 0:55:06.640 --> 0:55:08.640 and then they'd like instantly fall in love with her, 0:55:08.680 --> 0:55:10.799 and they were like jaws would drop and they just 0:55:10.880 --> 0:55:13.480 like wouldn't know how to turn into that corny cartoon 0:55:13.520 --> 0:55:17.120 wolf right, and they just wouldn't know how to comprehend that, 0:55:17.200 --> 0:55:21.279 like a woman is capable of something, especially something that 0:55:21.320 --> 0:55:24.960 they assume would be something that only a man could do. 0:55:25.600 --> 0:55:28.160 So yeah, just these like little moments that we like 0:55:28.440 --> 0:55:31.200 learn things about her character, we learn about her abilities, 0:55:31.360 --> 0:55:34.920 and it's just presented a very matter of factly and 0:55:35.600 --> 0:55:39.839 in a way that like Neo immediately accepts and there 0:55:39.960 --> 0:55:42.920 is I think, um, some of those moments where people 0:55:43.000 --> 0:55:46.480 are like, whoa Trinity, you can do things? Um, they 0:55:46.520 --> 0:55:49.359 feel so much like studio notes. They feel so much 0:55:49.400 --> 0:55:53.160 like somebody at the exact level was like, well, if 0:55:53.160 --> 0:55:55.839 she's with all these computers, someone has to note that 0:55:56.080 --> 0:55:58.640 she did that, and that's unusual because she's a girl, 0:55:59.080 --> 0:56:00.880 And so they put that in the script and like 0:56:01.000 --> 0:56:03.480 most directors would make a big moment of that. But 0:56:03.520 --> 0:56:06.080 like the Witch, how skis, even if they were not 0:56:06.160 --> 0:56:09.000 aware of their transness at the time, their sympathies are 0:56:09.040 --> 0:56:13.359 always with Trinity because they are in fact women, uh, 0:56:13.400 --> 0:56:16.879 And like that makes those moments play because you're not 0:56:17.000 --> 0:56:19.600 like sitting there and being like, oh my god, this 0:56:19.640 --> 0:56:22.960 is so condescending because it's it is like a thing 0:56:23.000 --> 0:56:25.480 that would have been condescending in any other movie with 0:56:25.560 --> 0:56:28.360 the exact same dialogue. It's just like how they wait 0:56:28.440 --> 0:56:30.759 that scene. I was. I was. I was kind of 0:56:30.840 --> 0:56:33.120 challenged by a lot of moments in the movie for 0:56:33.160 --> 0:56:36.360 that exact reason, where it's like on paper, if you 0:56:36.480 --> 0:56:39.319 hear like a similar thing with with Joey Pants, when 0:56:39.360 --> 0:56:41.840 you find out that Joey Pants has been lusting after 0:56:41.880 --> 0:56:45.880 Trinity was. At first, it being my first time encountering 0:56:45.920 --> 0:56:47.960 this plot point, I was like, Oh cool, we're adding 0:56:48.000 --> 0:56:51.520 in a spiteful ex boyfriend character to the one woman 0:56:51.520 --> 0:56:53.399 we're going to get to know during this movie, Like 0:56:53.520 --> 0:56:57.360 where is this gonna go? But the way I don't know. 0:56:57.400 --> 0:57:00.200 I generally felt like the way that that storyline play out. 0:57:00.640 --> 0:57:03.640 I just feel like almost any other director would have 0:57:03.840 --> 0:57:08.000 implied that Trinity had somehow brought this upon herself, that 0:57:08.080 --> 0:57:11.160 she could have handled rejecting Joey Pants in a different 0:57:11.160 --> 0:57:13.719 way that would have prevented this outcome. But this movie 0:57:13.760 --> 0:57:17.080 doesn't go for that at all. It presents the spiteful 0:57:17.160 --> 0:57:20.880 Joey Pants ex boyfriend, of which there are unfortunately many 0:57:21.080 --> 0:57:26.080 in the world, and does not blame the woman who 0:57:26.200 --> 0:57:31.080 is being raged at for what is happening, which again 0:57:31.200 --> 0:57:33.960 is just like I feel like that just wasn't happening 0:57:34.000 --> 0:57:35.960 a lot in movies at that time, and I was 0:57:36.160 --> 0:57:41.120 I ended up being kind of pleasantly surprised by I mean, 0:57:41.160 --> 0:57:44.680 and again, it's like, that's scraps, but it it. I 0:57:44.720 --> 0:57:47.320 was surprised that was how that story kind of played out. 0:57:47.880 --> 0:57:51.560 What if every shitty, spiteful ex boyfriend turned into a 0:57:51.600 --> 0:57:56.120 clone of Joe Pantoliano, like Agent Smith overtaking someone in 0:57:56.160 --> 0:58:00.439 the matrix. Now that's a movie, I hope. I hope 0:58:00.480 --> 0:58:06.480 that's Resurrections that they just had start showing it. I 0:58:06.520 --> 0:58:08.360 did want to talk a little bit about the romantic 0:58:08.400 --> 0:58:15.040 subplot between Trinity and Neo, because that's the one aspect 0:58:15.080 --> 0:58:18.480 of this movie where I get a little I don't know, 0:58:18.680 --> 0:58:23.000 I mean yeah, entering it in, I feel like it 0:58:23.480 --> 0:58:25.000 stood out to me a little bit more because I 0:58:25.000 --> 0:58:28.479 didn't have any nostalgia for the movie, and also because 0:58:28.520 --> 0:58:30.880 we recently covered speed in this movie, which ends with 0:58:31.000 --> 0:58:34.320 Kanu getting a little a little slurp at the end 0:58:34.400 --> 0:58:39.560 a plot resolving slurp if you will. Yeah, my main gripes, 0:58:40.080 --> 0:58:44.440 I don't even hate that it's there. You know, movies 0:58:44.480 --> 0:58:50.320 be movies, and movies have hetero romantic subplots in them often, 0:58:51.200 --> 0:58:57.920 but I don't there there are heterosexual I know. Is 0:58:57.960 --> 0:59:03.280 that's still a thing. God, I'm actually writing standout material 0:59:03.280 --> 0:59:07.080 about this as we speak, But um my gripes with 0:59:07.080 --> 0:59:11.440 it are that Neo being brought back to life by 0:59:11.560 --> 0:59:15.959 like Trinity's love and kiss to me that almost read 0:59:16.080 --> 0:59:20.560 is like because it's a it's a surprise kiss of 0:59:20.760 --> 0:59:26.440 Trinity kissing Neo while he's unconscious, like the prince in 0:59:26.520 --> 0:59:31.120 snow White bringing back to life, like that whole fairytale thing. 0:59:31.360 --> 0:59:34.640 It's like why you're like, don't don't kiss an unconscious 0:59:34.680 --> 0:59:38.640 person they cannot consent and stop showing that in movies. Also, 0:59:39.480 --> 0:59:42.880 um my other question I'm interested to hear people's thoughts 0:59:42.920 --> 0:59:47.800 about this, is so the oracle prophesied that or does 0:59:47.840 --> 0:59:54.600 that a word prophecied? Made a prophecy, she did a prophecy. 0:59:54.920 --> 0:59:58.840 She did she did a prophecy that Trinity would fall 0:59:58.880 --> 1:00:01.479 in love and that that man would be the one. 1:00:01.600 --> 1:00:04.720 And then that ends up being true. My question is, 1:00:05.160 --> 1:00:07.960 does it feel like that kind of removes agency from 1:00:08.400 --> 1:00:13.200 Trinity or is that not how prophecies work? No, I do, 1:00:13.440 --> 1:00:16.200 I mean, I don't know. I My feeling on that 1:00:16.320 --> 1:00:21.160 was like, if we're I, Trinity receiving my prophecy, of 1:00:21.200 --> 1:00:24.200 which you seem to only get one, I would be 1:00:24.320 --> 1:00:27.760 sort of let down that the prophecy seemed to have 1:00:27.880 --> 1:00:30.160 actually not that much to do with me, and more 1:00:30.400 --> 1:00:34.240 like a second prophecy for a different person. Like I 1:00:35.000 --> 1:00:36.880 do think that there's like that trope that you see 1:00:36.880 --> 1:00:41.280 a million times of like a woman's love will you know, 1:00:41.320 --> 1:00:43.640 it's like Helen of troy Ship. You know, a woman's 1:00:43.680 --> 1:00:47.120 love will resolve the plot or the war, whatever it is, 1:00:47.720 --> 1:00:51.240 that's definitely present here. I don't know, I mean in 1:00:51.320 --> 1:00:54.439 terms of agency, I guess I hadn't really considered that, 1:00:54.600 --> 1:00:56.440 But I think that that's where of a testament to Like, 1:00:57.240 --> 1:00:59.600 it feels so clear in the plot that Trinity and 1:00:59.800 --> 1:01:02.840 and EEO should be together that if I felt like 1:01:02.880 --> 1:01:06.160 there wasn't chemistry between those characters, um and that I 1:01:06.200 --> 1:01:09.720 wanted them to kiss so badly, maybe maybe that would 1:01:09.760 --> 1:01:12.560 have told me. I don't know that it does then 1:01:12.640 --> 1:01:16.320 I mean when you think about the prophecy that Morpheus received, 1:01:16.360 --> 1:01:20.760 which was you're going to find the one. Neo's prophecy 1:01:20.880 --> 1:01:25.080 is you are the one as long as you believe 1:01:25.320 --> 1:01:27.160 that you're the one, and once you believe that you're 1:01:27.200 --> 1:01:29.280 the one, then you're the one. Those are prophecies that 1:01:29.320 --> 1:01:33.320 have to do with them, right. And then Trinity's prophecy 1:01:33.440 --> 1:01:35.080 is You're going to fall in love with a man, 1:01:36.000 --> 1:01:41.320 which feels it feels like a very gendered choice. But again, 1:01:41.360 --> 1:01:43.120 I don't even hate that the love stories there, but 1:01:43.280 --> 1:01:45.760 it does, know, I mean, I like the love story. 1:01:46.080 --> 1:01:49.440 I do think that the two sequels really do a 1:01:49.480 --> 1:01:52.560 lot to further sell it. And I'm always like reading 1:01:52.800 --> 1:01:55.640 who those two characters become back onto the first movie, 1:01:55.720 --> 1:01:59.200 but I remember I was very much like, yeah, I 1:01:59.280 --> 1:02:01.400 don't know this love story. I I think they have 1:02:01.480 --> 1:02:04.560 good chemistry, but I'm not sure it was needed. But 1:02:05.000 --> 1:02:08.439 like Matrix Reloaded especially has some great stuff for those 1:02:08.440 --> 1:02:11.600 two characters to sort of bounce off of each other. 1:02:11.640 --> 1:02:13.760 But yeah, like if it wasn't for their chemistry, I 1:02:13.800 --> 1:02:20.200 don't think it would work. Fortunately they have amazing chemistry. Yeah, yeah, 1:02:20.240 --> 1:02:21.800 I do. I do feel like there are there are 1:02:21.880 --> 1:02:24.640 some kind of and Emily, once you brought up studio notes, 1:02:24.680 --> 1:02:26.760 now I can't stop thinking of, like, well, at what 1:02:27.040 --> 1:02:29.000 you know? I now I want to blame everything I 1:02:29.000 --> 1:02:32.160 didn't love about the movie on studio notes, but who knows. 1:02:32.760 --> 1:02:35.200 I do feel like it would have been just as 1:02:35.480 --> 1:02:39.080 easy and it wouldn't have impacted the story for them 1:02:39.120 --> 1:02:41.919 to not get together in that way and be like 1:02:42.120 --> 1:02:44.919 a team. And I think that that would have been 1:02:44.960 --> 1:02:47.600 just as strong a choice and would have worked completely fine, 1:02:48.000 --> 1:02:50.200 and the love story didn't have to be there. I 1:02:50.200 --> 1:02:52.800 didn't hate that it was there, but I felt like, yeah, 1:02:52.800 --> 1:02:55.600 my my main thing was like we especially because the 1:02:55.640 --> 1:02:58.920 movie starts with just a long introduction to how fucking 1:02:59.000 --> 1:03:02.960 cool and capable and brilliant Trinity is for her to 1:03:03.000 --> 1:03:06.400 get uh message like that from the oracle and then 1:03:06.520 --> 1:03:09.440 just have it bear out and not have Trinity, I 1:03:09.480 --> 1:03:11.240 mean she it's I thought it was interesting because in 1:03:11.280 --> 1:03:13.920 the movie she seems kind of annoyed that that is 1:03:13.960 --> 1:03:16.840 what she was told, or like very conflicted of like 1:03:17.240 --> 1:03:20.560 that's what I have to learn, like because it just 1:03:21.160 --> 1:03:23.560 we know, like we've seen how much she can do. 1:03:23.720 --> 1:03:27.000 It doesn't quite make sense that her fate would be 1:03:27.080 --> 1:03:30.640 so limited in the way that it's presented. There's a 1:03:30.680 --> 1:03:34.800 great piece on the sadly defunct website that dissolved by 1:03:35.040 --> 1:03:37.919 um Tasha Robinson about this very thing about how many 1:03:37.960 --> 1:03:41.920 movies have a basically a trinity character who's badass and 1:03:42.000 --> 1:03:44.480 capable and can do anything, and then her story ends 1:03:44.520 --> 1:03:46.640 up being but also she falls in love with the guy, 1:03:47.320 --> 1:03:50.440 and the Matrix actually does a pretty good job with 1:03:50.480 --> 1:03:53.200 that idea, and it's sort of the innovator of that trope, 1:03:53.240 --> 1:03:55.960 which is I think why in some ways it gets 1:03:56.000 --> 1:03:57.600 away with it. But then by the time she wrote 1:03:57.640 --> 1:04:02.000 it in, it's just like everywhere and it's not doing anything. 1:04:02.000 --> 1:04:06.040 It's just like sitting there taking up space and having 1:04:06.080 --> 1:04:11.080 the illusion of strong women characters while never actually having 1:04:11.160 --> 1:04:13.880 to create a strong women character. They're creating the trappings 1:04:13.880 --> 1:04:17.280 of one without actually having to make a full character. 1:04:17.760 --> 1:04:19.920 By the way, do you think people go to the 1:04:19.920 --> 1:04:23.040 oracle and get just like really boring prophecies? Do you 1:04:23.040 --> 1:04:26.760 think the oracles ever just like Jamie, you've seen the 1:04:26.800 --> 1:04:29.560 most beautiful duck you'll ever see already, Like, do you 1:04:29.560 --> 1:04:31.800 think that ever just comes up? And then I would 1:04:31.800 --> 1:04:35.240 just walk into traffic afterwards, I'd be like, well, thanks 1:04:35.240 --> 1:04:40.560 a lot, I hope so I well, we'll get to 1:04:40.600 --> 1:04:44.560 the oracle, whole, whole whole discussion to be had there. 1:04:45.080 --> 1:04:48.240 I God, that's my that's my worst fear is to 1:04:48.880 --> 1:04:52.960 encounter someone who's just like, yeah, your best days are 1:04:53.160 --> 1:04:58.840 very much behind you, so just write it out. But yeah, 1:04:58.920 --> 1:05:01.840 I mean, Jamie you pointed out the movie opens with this, 1:05:01.920 --> 1:05:05.720 like the whole sequence showcasing Trinity and her skills. Like 1:05:06.000 --> 1:05:10.720 for this action movie to open on an action set piece, 1:05:11.400 --> 1:05:13.840 which is not uncommon for an action movie, but for 1:05:13.880 --> 1:05:17.720 that action set piece to center around a woman and 1:05:17.760 --> 1:05:19.919 a woman who's not even the protagonist, because you would 1:05:20.080 --> 1:05:22.920 expect that from something like Laura Croft tomb Raider or 1:05:22.920 --> 1:05:26.080 something like that. But we get this whole set piece 1:05:26.320 --> 1:05:29.200 where we see a woman fighting and kicking ass, and 1:05:29.280 --> 1:05:32.520 she doesn't even end up being the protagonist of the narrative. 1:05:32.560 --> 1:05:35.160 I think is like, I don't know where else I've 1:05:35.200 --> 1:05:39.120 ever seen that. I don't think really anywhere. Yeah, I 1:05:39.160 --> 1:05:43.360 think just to kind of jump back to how yeah, 1:05:43.360 --> 1:05:46.919 before this, and especially like action movies and action franchises, 1:05:47.720 --> 1:05:51.400 the one woman character who we get to know pretty well, 1:05:52.000 --> 1:05:56.120 would be framed only as the romantic interest who maybe 1:05:56.200 --> 1:05:59.680 gets like dragged along for the ride, but isn't participating 1:05:59.720 --> 1:06:03.600 in an any of the action or the plot herself, 1:06:03.720 --> 1:06:06.120 and it's just kind of like present for the man 1:06:06.200 --> 1:06:09.440 to eventually kiss at the end. Whereas this movie, and 1:06:09.440 --> 1:06:12.000 I'm sure you know there are other examples before this, 1:06:12.120 --> 1:06:14.080 but like I feel like this is one of the 1:06:14.080 --> 1:06:17.520 ones that like kind of popularized or like actually gave 1:06:18.160 --> 1:06:23.520 the woman more agency, more to do, more skills, and 1:06:23.840 --> 1:06:26.320 actually allowed her to participate in the plot in more 1:06:26.760 --> 1:06:30.800 meaningful ways, but still couldn't quite stick the landing on 1:06:31.400 --> 1:06:35.520 given her the full story. Right, there's there's really before 1:06:35.600 --> 1:06:38.240 this movie. There is. If you're a woman in a movie, 1:06:39.280 --> 1:06:42.960 you are just an incredible badass. Woman in an action movie, 1:06:43.000 --> 1:06:46.400 you're just an incredible badass. Usually there's not a man around, 1:06:46.480 --> 1:06:48.280 like the kind of the one exception I'm thinking of 1:06:48.360 --> 1:06:51.760 right now is um Linda Hamilton's and Terminator to but 1:06:51.800 --> 1:06:54.280 even like in the first Terminator, she falls in love 1:06:54.320 --> 1:06:56.760 with this guy and has sex with him, you know whatever, 1:06:57.440 --> 1:07:00.880 or you are the love interest, you know um, So 1:07:00.920 --> 1:07:02.959 this is the first movie that tries to blend those 1:07:02.960 --> 1:07:05.240 two but it is very much like at the end 1:07:05.320 --> 1:07:07.520 they have to pick one of those two corridors and 1:07:07.520 --> 1:07:11.480 they pick the wrong one. To my mind, it's messy 1:07:11.520 --> 1:07:15.040 and it's and it's like we're it's not even like 1:07:15.040 --> 1:07:20.160 we're suggesting that women who can execute perfect fight choreography 1:07:20.160 --> 1:07:23.480 and hack a computer don't deserve love if they want 1:07:23.520 --> 1:07:25.360 love or and they want a relationship, But it's like 1:07:25.440 --> 1:07:28.680 more the way that it's executed and how what we're 1:07:28.680 --> 1:07:30.880 told in the first half of the movie is what 1:07:30.960 --> 1:07:34.280 makes her special, isn't what makes her special or relevant 1:07:34.280 --> 1:07:37.560 to the plot by the end, And that is like 1:07:38.120 --> 1:07:41.000 I don't know if that all like played in and 1:07:41.560 --> 1:07:47.240 she wants a boyfriend. Amazing, great love that, but yeah, 1:07:47.320 --> 1:07:49.919 I don't know. Definitely a little bit messy, but still 1:07:49.960 --> 1:07:52.640 I mean I keep every time I like Peel, the 1:07:52.760 --> 1:07:55.480 need to qualify it at every turn as like, but 1:07:55.680 --> 1:07:58.320 it's doing way better than any other movie was doing 1:07:58.360 --> 1:08:02.200 at this time, like by quite a bit. So I 1:08:02.240 --> 1:08:04.160 feel like, yeah, that's there's a lot of product of 1:08:04.200 --> 1:08:08.560 its time. Zenous to that choice along the lines of 1:08:08.640 --> 1:08:10.800 this being a product of its time. This is a 1:08:10.880 --> 1:08:14.960 movie from as we've stated at nine nine is just 1:08:15.120 --> 1:08:17.880 clogged with movies that are about, well, we've reached the 1:08:18.120 --> 1:08:22.120 end of history capitalism one and everything's great. Why do 1:08:22.240 --> 1:08:25.000 I feel hollow inside? And like there's like five or 1:08:25.160 --> 1:08:28.200 six that come out in even more if you include 1:08:28.800 --> 1:08:31.680 two thousand. But the Matrix is the one that's held 1:08:31.760 --> 1:08:35.479 up best to my mind because it has this larger 1:08:35.600 --> 1:08:40.639 critique of everything feels empty because you have been misled 1:08:40.800 --> 1:08:44.479 by corporations and governments and all these systems to think 1:08:44.560 --> 1:08:46.920 that you do not have any actual human connection. And 1:08:47.000 --> 1:08:48.960 the truth is you should have human connection. You should 1:08:48.960 --> 1:08:50.800 move to a city at the center of the earth 1:08:50.840 --> 1:08:53.280 and just funck everyone you see, Like that is the 1:08:53.400 --> 1:08:56.479 message of these movies. But like you know, you compare 1:08:56.520 --> 1:08:59.040 it to something like American Beauty, which one best picture 1:08:59.120 --> 1:09:01.320 that year, And it's just that that vision of like 1:09:01.520 --> 1:09:04.240 what it means to be alive is like so shallow, 1:09:04.800 --> 1:09:06.360 and this movie's vision of what it means to be 1:09:06.400 --> 1:09:10.640 alive is so rich and fascinating and weird and complicated. 1:09:10.760 --> 1:09:12.680 And um, I think that is to the credit of 1:09:12.800 --> 1:09:15.920 the Witch, how skis whatever stumbles they may have made 1:09:15.920 --> 1:09:21.280 along the way. Sure, I totally yeah. I just love Trinity, 1:09:21.320 --> 1:09:24.040 and I also love how there. I don't know the 1:09:24.640 --> 1:09:26.880 way that the characters are presented in this movie. I 1:09:26.920 --> 1:09:28.439 know it's just like a part of the aesthetic of 1:09:28.520 --> 1:09:30.760 this world as it is. But the women in this 1:09:30.880 --> 1:09:35.000 world are not aggressively sexualized. You know. Everyone is basically 1:09:35.080 --> 1:09:39.080 wearing the same exact outfit. Everyone has a variation on 1:09:39.320 --> 1:09:43.480 the same exact haircut, and then everyone has the jawline 1:09:43.600 --> 1:09:47.880 to pull off that haircut. And don't don't get us wrong, 1:09:48.080 --> 1:09:53.280 Trinity is very sexy. But yes, I agree everyone sexually 1:09:53.400 --> 1:09:59.080 everyone's sexually am sexy, but yeah, not overtly sexualized. Yeah, 1:09:59.560 --> 1:10:02.000 it's kind know that it is kind of that nineties 1:10:02.080 --> 1:10:05.200 Internet aesthetic where it's like, well, online everyone's the same. 1:10:05.439 --> 1:10:07.960 Everyone just kind of looks the same, has the same 1:10:08.080 --> 1:10:10.599 vibe on the Internet, no one knows you're a dog 1:10:10.720 --> 1:10:14.640 whatever that cartoon was at the time. Like, um, and 1:10:14.800 --> 1:10:17.240 I when I've watched the trailer for this there's a 1:10:17.320 --> 1:10:21.439 lot more less homogeneity, you know, within that world. And 1:10:21.520 --> 1:10:24.720 I think it's because now we understand the Internet can 1:10:24.760 --> 1:10:27.679 be as terrible as real life too, if not worse. 1:10:30.040 --> 1:10:33.680 I wanted to uh, we even talked too much about Morpheus, 1:10:33.840 --> 1:10:38.519 yet I wanted to talk about Morpheus a little bit. 1:10:38.560 --> 1:10:43.040 I mean, first of all, because he's amazing, he's great, um, 1:10:43.320 --> 1:10:45.400 But there was as I was going back to it, 1:10:45.479 --> 1:10:50.480 so I was doing the always interesting but sometimes unpleasant 1:10:50.520 --> 1:10:53.040 task of going back to the original round of criticism 1:10:53.479 --> 1:10:56.920 for this movie in the late nineties, going into kind 1:10:56.920 --> 1:10:59.000 of like movie blogs of the early two thousands, and 1:10:59.520 --> 1:11:02.280 there was, I think, especially in the earlier years of 1:11:02.400 --> 1:11:06.280 this movie, a fair amount of criticism around mystical black 1:11:06.400 --> 1:11:10.559 character tropes used in the writing of Morpheus's character as 1:11:10.600 --> 1:11:14.160 well as the oracle. UM. So I kind of wanted 1:11:14.360 --> 1:11:17.920 to uh open the floor on on that topic to 1:11:18.160 --> 1:11:20.960 I mean, the criticism that I was seeing and we 1:11:21.040 --> 1:11:23.840 can um link this in the description as well, is 1:11:23.960 --> 1:11:26.560 that and we've discussed this, I mean we we just 1:11:26.720 --> 1:11:29.639 discussed this on the show in our full Court Miracle 1:11:29.800 --> 1:11:33.439 episode or that troupe couldn't be more different movies, but 1:11:33.680 --> 1:11:37.479 the trope is at play to varying degrees in both 1:11:37.560 --> 1:11:39.960 of these movies that are made by and you know, 1:11:40.040 --> 1:11:43.840 made and written by white filmmakers, in which essentially black 1:11:43.960 --> 1:11:49.200 character appears as this mystical fairy godmother plot advancement character 1:11:49.680 --> 1:11:53.160 for the chosen white protagonist, whether that be Neo or 1:11:53.439 --> 1:11:56.120 the kid in Full Court Miracle. You know, it just 1:11:56.840 --> 1:12:00.920 it just all depends um. And I mean I I 1:12:01.040 --> 1:12:04.280 think that it's absolutely a valid criticism of the way 1:12:04.360 --> 1:12:07.880 that those characters are written. Not the worst example, but 1:12:08.240 --> 1:12:13.000 um certainly is present. I think Originally, I mean, the 1:12:13.120 --> 1:12:15.880 term was originally used by Spike Lee in two thousand 1:12:15.960 --> 1:12:20.720 and one, and I have an old Salon article up 1:12:20.760 --> 1:12:24.040 here which really takes me back. But the character is 1:12:24.080 --> 1:12:27.080 being cited. When this term was first coined. Was Kuba 1:12:27.120 --> 1:12:30.960 Gooding Jr. In What Dreams May Come, which is a 1:12:31.040 --> 1:12:33.400 movie I haven't seen that's about a spirit guide helping 1:12:33.520 --> 1:12:37.240 Robin Williams rescue his wife from hell. Question mark um 1:12:38.200 --> 1:12:41.439 will Smith in the Legend of Bagger vans Uh Laurence 1:12:41.479 --> 1:12:44.479 Fishburne in The Matrix, which is described as in this 1:12:44.640 --> 1:12:48.040 as obi Wana. Kiana Reeves is Luke Skywalker, and Michael 1:12:48.080 --> 1:12:52.120 Clarke Duncan in The Green Mile, in which he plays 1:12:52.400 --> 1:12:56.160 a man on death Row who has healing powers and 1:12:56.280 --> 1:12:59.920 heels white characters. Do you want to know the Supper 1:13:00.040 --> 1:13:05.360 Eyes twist of What Dreams May Come? What Cooper Gooding Jr. 1:13:05.520 --> 1:13:09.240 Is playing Robin williams son in disguise to like lead 1:13:09.360 --> 1:13:13.280 him through the afterlife, because if it was his actual son, 1:13:13.479 --> 1:13:16.920 Robin Williams wouldn't like go along with it. I don't know, 1:13:17.640 --> 1:13:21.519 it's very weird. I have never heard of this movie, 1:13:21.760 --> 1:13:28.160 and but um, yeah, so I did. I did want to, 1:13:28.479 --> 1:13:31.960 you know, just bring that criticism up, because it's uh, 1:13:32.479 --> 1:13:34.880 something that comes up quite a bit in movies still. 1:13:34.920 --> 1:13:37.760 But I think in a high density of movies of 1:13:38.080 --> 1:13:40.960 this kind of stretch of years in the late nineties 1:13:40.960 --> 1:13:44.960 into their early two thousands, sure it does. One thing 1:13:45.040 --> 1:13:47.519 I like about the casting of the fourth movie is 1:13:47.600 --> 1:13:51.479 it seems, yes, they have abdual Matine playing who is 1:13:51.520 --> 1:13:54.760 obviously the Morpheus character. Um, but they have a bunch 1:13:54.800 --> 1:13:57.400 of other actors of color and different roles that look 1:13:57.479 --> 1:13:59.240 like they're going to be all kind of over the map, 1:13:59.280 --> 1:14:01.960 and I think that will help with this issue. I 1:14:02.080 --> 1:14:06.880 do think I think that like this is obviously a 1:14:07.120 --> 1:14:09.720 valid and important criticism of the film. I do think 1:14:09.800 --> 1:14:13.040 that there is the thing of you know, they get 1:14:13.120 --> 1:14:15.960 considered a lot of different actors for the role of Morpheus. 1:14:16.000 --> 1:14:19.920 They settled on Ward's fishburn, should they when they settled 1:14:19.960 --> 1:14:22.080 on him, did they settle on him because they had 1:14:22.200 --> 1:14:27.240 certain you know, racist stereotypical ideas that you know, we're 1:14:27.280 --> 1:14:29.680 in their heads already, you know, we can't know that. 1:14:29.840 --> 1:14:32.840 But I do think once you've cast a black actor 1:14:32.920 --> 1:14:34.880 in a role like this, you do have sort of 1:14:34.960 --> 1:14:37.400 the burden of going back over the script and being like, Okay, 1:14:37.479 --> 1:14:39.439 are there ways we can complicate this? Are other ways 1:14:39.479 --> 1:14:42.160 we can make it more interesting? That said, I think 1:14:42.200 --> 1:14:48.360 that Morpheus is nowhere near Kuba cutting juniors. Like he's 1:14:48.360 --> 1:14:52.960 a fully realized human being, and like, sometimes the tropes 1:14:53.439 --> 1:14:55.960 are bad because they we just lean on the tropes, 1:14:56.040 --> 1:14:59.559 and sometimes the tropes exist because we need certain tropes 1:14:59.600 --> 1:15:01.240 to tell us worries. We're not saying we need this one. 1:15:01.320 --> 1:15:03.920 But Morpheus is a fully realized human being, and I 1:15:04.000 --> 1:15:06.559 think that keeps him from falling into the worst examples 1:15:06.600 --> 1:15:09.800 of this. The thing that and again it's like we're 1:15:10.520 --> 1:15:13.960 we're three white women here, and I want to be clear, 1:15:14.040 --> 1:15:16.720 extremely white. When I said big Greece witherspin energy, I 1:15:16.800 --> 1:15:21.000 was describing myself. Uh, but but I did, I mean 1:15:21.280 --> 1:15:25.160 the only thing that this is even like pushing back 1:15:25.280 --> 1:15:29.160 at all. But like Will Smith almost played Neo is 1:15:29.960 --> 1:15:32.400 another thing that I kind of took into consideration when 1:15:32.439 --> 1:15:34.800 I was just kind of going through this criticism is 1:15:35.600 --> 1:15:37.960 I think that I totally agree with the Emily where 1:15:38.040 --> 1:15:41.200 it is on the filmmakers once they've made their casting 1:15:41.280 --> 1:15:44.519 decisions to consider, you know, whether intended or not, what 1:15:44.760 --> 1:15:47.560 might be coming across, and and take that into consideration 1:15:47.640 --> 1:15:50.759 with how characters are presented and how their their storylines unfold. 1:15:50.800 --> 1:15:53.280 But it does seem like the cast I mean, reading 1:15:53.280 --> 1:15:55.880 about the casting process for The Matrix outside of this 1:15:56.000 --> 1:15:59.840 discussion is just very interesting. Will Smith has made so 1:16:00.040 --> 1:16:02.720 many YouTube videos about how he almost took his part. 1:16:02.800 --> 1:16:07.240 He's still mad about it. There's one in particular that 1:16:07.400 --> 1:16:11.960 like involves some animation and he like it's so funny. 1:16:12.080 --> 1:16:14.560 He's spending money telling people that he was almost in 1:16:14.600 --> 1:16:18.840 the Matrix, Like it's funny, it's amazing. So I I 1:16:18.960 --> 1:16:21.479 think that you know, where the casting dead land. It's 1:16:21.479 --> 1:16:24.200 a valid criticism and and you know, I think we're 1:16:24.439 --> 1:16:27.200 being made now, Like if this movie was coming out now, 1:16:27.720 --> 1:16:29.960 it would be something that would be taken into account 1:16:30.680 --> 1:16:33.960 carefully because Spike Lee made this criticism of all of 1:16:34.040 --> 1:16:38.600 these movies. So yeah, and I definitely think the Oracle 1:16:39.360 --> 1:16:44.200 does fall a bit more into that trope, for I mean, 1:16:44.200 --> 1:16:47.639 because we know nothing about her. She's in one scene, 1:16:48.160 --> 1:16:51.559 and everything we know about her is that she seems 1:16:51.600 --> 1:16:57.280 to have these like kind of otherworldly clairvoyant capabilities that 1:16:57.360 --> 1:17:01.080 no one else has. So yeah, she is presented as 1:17:01.120 --> 1:17:05.559 this very like mystical figure. I love that performer though. 1:17:06.800 --> 1:17:10.599 Gloria Foster so good and so there's something so warm 1:17:10.680 --> 1:17:13.960 about her and like I wish we'd gotten ten million 1:17:14.000 --> 1:17:17.240 more performances from her. She's so good. Yeah, she's also 1:17:17.439 --> 1:17:21.240 in the Matrix Reloaded, and then I believe that actor 1:17:21.600 --> 1:17:26.720 died before they shot Revolutions, but the character is still 1:17:26.760 --> 1:17:28.639 there and they actually comment on like why she looks 1:17:28.680 --> 1:17:31.800 different because she gets a different actor gets cast to 1:17:31.880 --> 1:17:35.920 play the Oracle in Matrix Revolutions. But um, yeah, that 1:17:36.040 --> 1:17:40.479 actor was incredible and like funny too in a movie 1:17:40.560 --> 1:17:46.040 that doesn't have a ton of like very light calming scenes. 1:17:46.200 --> 1:17:48.479 It's just I don't know, And and the set design, 1:17:48.600 --> 1:17:52.080 the kitchen, the green kitchen that she's in is so 1:17:52.560 --> 1:17:56.519 I don't know. She's she's good, she's very good, but 1:17:56.600 --> 1:18:00.920 I do think also cleanly falls into that chap. Yeah, 1:18:01.320 --> 1:18:04.320 I just saw that Will Smith turned this movie down 1:18:04.360 --> 1:18:08.640 to do Wild Wild West. Yeah, yes, isn't it. So 1:18:08.760 --> 1:18:10.720 that's why he's so bad about it and he'll never 1:18:10.800 --> 1:18:13.640 get over it is because he didn't just turn it 1:18:13.680 --> 1:18:16.200 down to do a different good movie. He turned it 1:18:16.280 --> 1:18:21.559 down to do because of my favorite bad movies. Yeah, 1:18:21.800 --> 1:18:23.560 we'll send you the link to the video where he 1:18:23.720 --> 1:18:28.040 like lays out the whole story. It's very funny. He 1:18:28.200 --> 1:18:30.320 was just kind of like a skeptical of the script, 1:18:30.400 --> 1:18:32.160 I think, And he also didn't I think he didn't 1:18:32.200 --> 1:18:35.280 want to be typecast as like the sci fi action 1:18:35.439 --> 1:18:38.599 guy because he had already been in Men in Black 1:18:38.760 --> 1:18:42.200 and Independence Day. So yeah, it's well, well, we'll share 1:18:42.560 --> 1:18:45.240 the link to everybody of that video, but it'll make 1:18:45.320 --> 1:18:47.640 sense on paper. But then when you know that he 1:18:47.840 --> 1:18:50.120 turned down the Matrix, that is funny. And I think 1:18:50.160 --> 1:18:52.680 it would have I mean, I wouldn't trade Keian you 1:18:52.760 --> 1:18:55.479 as Neo for for anyone, but I do I do 1:18:55.880 --> 1:18:58.879 like to think of like Will Smith and Laurence Fishburne 1:18:58.880 --> 1:19:00.519 would have been I mean, it would have been very different, 1:19:00.560 --> 1:19:03.000 but it would have been cool. It would have been good. Well, 1:19:03.080 --> 1:19:05.920 that's the thing. It wouldn't have been Laurence Fishburne. They 1:19:06.000 --> 1:19:08.920 had Val Kilmer in mind to play Morpheus, had it 1:19:09.360 --> 1:19:12.559 been Will Smith got cast. I have to go back 1:19:12.600 --> 1:19:15.320 and watch Will Smith's cursed YouTube video about this. I 1:19:15.439 --> 1:19:20.439 forgot about that. But even though these tropes are present 1:19:20.600 --> 1:19:22.680 in this movie, I would say that this is a 1:19:22.760 --> 1:19:26.920 surprisingly diverse cast for a late a late nineties action movie. 1:19:27.360 --> 1:19:30.160 And I think it gets even more diverse as the 1:19:30.280 --> 1:19:33.800 movies go on, because in the two sequels a ton 1:19:33.960 --> 1:19:38.479 of new characters are introduced, maybe even too many, I 1:19:38.600 --> 1:19:42.000 would argue, but most of them are people of color, 1:19:42.160 --> 1:19:45.640 especially the characters who are like fighting for the resistance, 1:19:45.800 --> 1:19:49.559 like who are like inhabitants of Zion, are like mostly 1:19:49.680 --> 1:19:52.800 people of color. Do you think it bugs Will Smith? 1:19:52.840 --> 1:19:55.320 Because Jada Pinkett Smith is in the two sequels and 1:19:55.439 --> 1:19:57.360 like she just holds it over him all that time, 1:19:57.840 --> 1:20:01.040 as I did consider that guy and have they we 1:20:01.160 --> 1:20:04.320 know that they have some some issues that they need 1:20:04.439 --> 1:20:08.200 to work out in public. They have to uh there. 1:20:08.240 --> 1:20:10.679 I just wanted to Sorry. I know we're having every 1:20:11.120 --> 1:20:13.400 and extremely academic discuss I just wanted to go through 1:20:13.439 --> 1:20:16.160 the other casting stuff because I always forget how kind 1:20:16.200 --> 1:20:19.120 of wild it was. Um so yeah, Will Smith said, 1:20:19.160 --> 1:20:21.240 I would rather do Wild Wild West, one of the 1:20:21.840 --> 1:20:24.320 taking one of the biggest els in all of casting history. 1:20:25.120 --> 1:20:28.680 Nicholas Cage turned it down due to family obligations. Who 1:20:28.760 --> 1:20:34.160 knows what that means. Uh. Leonardo DiCaprio originally accepted the part, 1:20:34.280 --> 1:20:36.759 but then said that he did too many visual effects 1:20:36.760 --> 1:20:38.519 in Titanic and he didn't want to do it anymore. 1:20:39.600 --> 1:20:43.479 Then the studio was like Keanu Reeves who got the 1:20:43.640 --> 1:20:46.400 role over Johnny Depp, who I guess is who the 1:20:46.439 --> 1:20:49.760 witch how skis wanted for this role. And then there 1:20:49.880 --> 1:20:52.160 was a side quest where they sent the screenplay to 1:20:52.200 --> 1:20:54.840 Sandra Bullock and we're going to rewrite Neo to be 1:20:55.000 --> 1:20:59.040 a woman, which I guess didn't happen, but I was like, oh, 1:20:59.120 --> 1:21:02.000 that's interest think, there's just really the net. It would 1:21:02.040 --> 1:21:04.519 just have been the net. It could have been the net. 1:21:05.600 --> 1:21:08.640 I yeah, so you know, that's a lot of information 1:21:09.200 --> 1:21:12.559 all at once. I would have loved Neo as a woman, 1:21:12.680 --> 1:21:14.760 especially because we talked about this a lot, where there 1:21:14.800 --> 1:21:19.559 are a Brazilian Chosen One narratives as movies and very 1:21:19.600 --> 1:21:23.519 few of them are about a woman, so that would 1:21:23.560 --> 1:21:26.360 have been very cool. But at the same time. I 1:21:26.479 --> 1:21:30.280 love Kano as Neo, I know, and and for Trinity. Sorry, 1:21:30.360 --> 1:21:34.919 it's just it's really interesting. Janet Jackson was considered for Trinity, 1:21:35.720 --> 1:21:38.880 and Samahak and Jada Pinkett Smith were also considered, and 1:21:39.000 --> 1:21:42.639 then um didn't do it, but then Jada came in later. Anyways, 1:21:43.520 --> 1:21:46.760 Janet Jackson is such a fucking good movie actress and 1:21:46.920 --> 1:21:49.599 she's only made just a handful of films and she's 1:21:49.680 --> 1:21:53.360 just really good. Come on, Janet, I want to like, 1:21:53.439 --> 1:21:56.120 I want Hollywood to cast Janet more often or I 1:21:56.200 --> 1:21:58.240 don't know, I don't know. It sounds like she was 1:21:58.280 --> 1:22:01.599 pretty bummed about not getting to do the main tricks. Yeah, 1:22:01.880 --> 1:22:07.360 but yeah again. American action franchises have usually a pretty 1:22:07.400 --> 1:22:13.240 big problem with casting mostly white actors. But again, the matrix, 1:22:13.520 --> 1:22:16.559 even the first movie is doing better than most. Between 1:22:16.960 --> 1:22:21.799 the protagonist Neo played by Kiana Reeves, who is coded 1:22:22.080 --> 1:22:26.040 white I think a lot of times in in movies, 1:22:26.360 --> 1:22:32.840 UM he is of European, Chinese, and Polynesian ancestry, so 1:22:33.120 --> 1:22:39.720 he's multiracial. So between Kanu Lawrence Fishburne as Morpheus, the 1:22:39.800 --> 1:22:42.840 actors who play Tank and Dozer, the actor who plays 1:22:42.880 --> 1:22:48.479 Apoc Julian Arjanga is Maori again just a more diverse 1:22:48.640 --> 1:22:52.720 cast than most action movies of this time, and more 1:22:52.840 --> 1:22:58.040 representative of what a futuristic leftist society would look like. 1:22:58.520 --> 1:23:01.519 So it makes narrative sense and world building sends in 1:23:01.600 --> 1:23:04.559 a way that a lot of movies ignore is true 1:23:04.880 --> 1:23:07.000 and like this is this has nothing to do with 1:23:07.160 --> 1:23:09.560 the film's racial diversity, but I think in terms of 1:23:10.040 --> 1:23:13.960 gender presentation diversity, obviously this movie is very androgynous across 1:23:13.960 --> 1:23:16.840 the board. But belindam glorious, which the character who was 1:23:17.040 --> 1:23:21.080 originally sort of intended is translate there, nobody was nobody 1:23:21.200 --> 1:23:23.519 was styled like that in an action movie at the time, 1:23:23.680 --> 1:23:27.760 Like she's just so there's just such an an androgynous, 1:23:28.320 --> 1:23:32.400 nonconforming energy just sort of pouring off of her totally. 1:23:32.920 --> 1:23:34.760 And I really, I mean, I just and this is 1:23:35.200 --> 1:23:38.240 kind of just like a compliment to the movie. But 1:23:38.640 --> 1:23:42.120 the way that the crew of the ship, which I'm 1:23:42.320 --> 1:23:43.760 not going to try to say because I'm not going 1:23:43.800 --> 1:23:46.360 to say it right, but the way that the crew 1:23:46.600 --> 1:23:50.120 works together, I just I just really like how they 1:23:50.200 --> 1:23:53.439 interact with each other. Where like you were saying earlier 1:23:53.520 --> 1:23:56.600 in this episode, only like everyone has a distinct personality 1:23:56.760 --> 1:23:59.880 even when you don't hear them speak very much. Everyone 1:24:00.040 --> 1:24:02.360 knows what their role is. But I just I don't 1:24:02.400 --> 1:24:04.559 know the way that the movie is written and they're 1:24:04.680 --> 1:24:08.320 used so thoughtfully to like, oh, this person is talking 1:24:08.360 --> 1:24:11.080 behind Morpheus is back a little bit, or like the 1:24:11.120 --> 1:24:15.400 way that Trinity clearly has this deep respect for Morpheus 1:24:15.479 --> 1:24:17.639 but is sometimes like, well he's wrong about that though, 1:24:17.680 --> 1:24:20.600 like he's wrong and he is being shortsighted, and just 1:24:20.800 --> 1:24:23.840 like I don't know, I really love when there's a 1:24:24.200 --> 1:24:27.120 group of characters who clearly hold a lot of love 1:24:27.200 --> 1:24:29.080 and respect for each other, but also we are constantly 1:24:29.120 --> 1:24:32.680 talking about each other um in a way that is 1:24:32.760 --> 1:24:37.040 just like very effortless, and in this completely bizarro world, 1:24:37.280 --> 1:24:40.880 feels like real and like actual dynamics that you would 1:24:40.880 --> 1:24:43.960 see in a group of friends who you know, the 1:24:44.000 --> 1:24:46.080 fate of the world is not hinged on. Is it 1:24:46.200 --> 1:24:48.800 fair to say that part of the trans allegory is 1:24:49.080 --> 1:24:52.880 that like this group of people is like each other's 1:24:52.960 --> 1:24:56.240 chosen family. Yeah, that's I think that that is very 1:24:56.400 --> 1:24:59.439 um there is a queerness to it that is very 1:24:59.600 --> 1:25:02.640 I think interesting and I don't know how intentional, but 1:25:03.160 --> 1:25:08.200 definitely subconsciously intentional, intentional. I'm thinking about how they're making 1:25:08.400 --> 1:25:12.120 so many TV shows set in like movie universes now, 1:25:12.600 --> 1:25:14.800 and like a show just sort of set on any 1:25:14.880 --> 1:25:17.360 given ship in the Matrix universe where they're just like 1:25:17.520 --> 1:25:20.679 hanging out and complaining about each other and occasionally fighting 1:25:20.720 --> 1:25:24.960 spider robots. Brad. I'd watch that, I would watch. That 1:25:25.040 --> 1:25:27.400 would be incredible. Yeah. The one thing I didn't watch 1:25:27.479 --> 1:25:30.639 in preparation for this was Animatrix, which I haven't seen 1:25:30.800 --> 1:25:34.160 at all, and I've heard it's good and I think 1:25:34.240 --> 1:25:36.040 I just need to sit down and commit to it. 1:25:36.200 --> 1:25:38.920 But it's really hard to see now. I think it's 1:25:38.960 --> 1:25:42.120 on HBO Max. It's on HBO Max. Okay, so I 1:25:42.240 --> 1:25:44.880 just for a long time it was hard to see. Yeah, 1:25:45.280 --> 1:25:46.920 it seems to be accessible now, so I'm going to 1:25:47.000 --> 1:25:49.920 go check it out. But um oh, I was going 1:25:49.960 --> 1:25:52.800 to say, going back to the discussion of gender expression 1:25:53.000 --> 1:25:58.519 and presentation of certain characters, Trinity's character design and aesthetic 1:25:59.000 --> 1:26:02.799 is also what you would expect as the main female 1:26:02.880 --> 1:26:06.080 character in an action movie who also plays the role 1:26:06.240 --> 1:26:11.679 of the love interest of the male hero. Her clothes 1:26:11.880 --> 1:26:15.600 and haircut are I would say pretty gender neutral. You know, 1:26:15.720 --> 1:26:20.080 she doesn't have this long flowing hair that's completely impractical 1:26:20.240 --> 1:26:23.559 to fight bad guys with. And she's not like made 1:26:23.640 --> 1:26:25.400 up in a bunch of makeup the way that, again, 1:26:25.520 --> 1:26:29.320 a lot of women would be in an action franchise, 1:26:29.439 --> 1:26:32.720 because the function that a lot of women serve in 1:26:32.800 --> 1:26:36.320 an action franchise is to like be eye candy for 1:26:36.520 --> 1:26:40.120 what the studios assume is going to be a mostly 1:26:40.360 --> 1:26:44.559 hetero male audience. But they don't stylize Trinity that way, 1:26:45.080 --> 1:26:46.760 and it wouldn't make sense that she would like be 1:26:46.920 --> 1:26:50.000 all made up when she's like flying around in the Nebuchadnezzar. 1:26:50.360 --> 1:26:52.160 But they also don't make her up that way when 1:26:52.240 --> 1:26:55.320 she's like in the Matrix either, which I thought was 1:26:55.880 --> 1:27:00.040 interesting and cool. They in fact even make her a 1:27:00.200 --> 1:27:03.519 little less glamorous in the sequels, like if that's an all, 1:27:03.800 --> 1:27:06.880 Like I love how stripped down the visuals of this 1:27:07.120 --> 1:27:10.479 just just constantly are in terms of not trying to 1:27:10.560 --> 1:27:14.960 make anyone movie pretty. There of course incredibly attractive, but 1:27:15.040 --> 1:27:19.880 they don't like overstate that attractiveness, right yeah, I mean, 1:27:20.040 --> 1:27:24.240 And again it's just like the Wakis are so confident 1:27:24.479 --> 1:27:27.240 when they make a choice, they make it so hard 1:27:27.479 --> 1:27:29.559 that it's like, yeah, we're just gonna let the hot 1:27:29.640 --> 1:27:33.000 people be hot and not you know, they're all going 1:27:33.040 --> 1:27:34.920 to wear the same outfit. We don't need to embellish it. 1:27:35.080 --> 1:27:37.400 Like we're just gonna let the jawlines do what they 1:27:37.439 --> 1:27:40.000 do and fall where they may, and it's going to 1:27:40.120 --> 1:27:45.400 be sexy because it is. Like I was just thinking 1:27:45.439 --> 1:27:49.000 about the bullet time thing where the camera swings all 1:27:49.000 --> 1:27:53.280 the way around. I like the other early major use 1:27:53.360 --> 1:27:58.400 of this technology was for a gap commercial like really 1:27:58.560 --> 1:28:01.479 that came out at the holiday as. Yeah, it was 1:28:01.560 --> 1:28:04.760 like they were doing a swing dance or something. Oh yeah, 1:28:04.920 --> 1:28:08.439 I remember that. I cannot remember if the gap ad 1:28:08.560 --> 1:28:11.120 predates the Matrix or the Matrix predates the gap at 1:28:11.120 --> 1:28:13.960 because I don't think that bullet time was invented for 1:28:14.040 --> 1:28:15.479 the Matrix, but I think it was like a thing 1:28:15.600 --> 1:28:18.080 that they pulled in that other people had also come 1:28:18.200 --> 1:28:20.680 up with. But I would not be surprised if it 1:28:20.800 --> 1:28:23.200 would be great if the gap AD came first and 1:28:23.400 --> 1:28:25.880 like everyone in the Matrix was like we missed it 1:28:26.040 --> 1:28:29.000 by like two months, um, But I do think the 1:28:29.040 --> 1:28:32.080 Matrix came first, So I would love sitting in a 1:28:32.120 --> 1:28:35.960 movie theater. Here's someone lean over and be like, they're 1:28:36.000 --> 1:28:40.640 just ripping off that gap commercial. I saw so derivative 1:28:40.680 --> 1:28:46.240 of that gap commercial. Unbelievable. UM. I wanted to really 1:28:46.360 --> 1:28:49.120 quickly touch on just because and we can kind of 1:28:49.520 --> 1:28:55.760 blow through this, but because the red pill discussion snowballed 1:28:55.800 --> 1:28:58.280 out in the way that it did, I just wanted 1:28:58.320 --> 1:29:01.960 to quickly touch on not even UM. I mean, I'm 1:29:02.000 --> 1:29:04.000 assuming if you listen to the show, you're aware of 1:29:04.640 --> 1:29:09.439 the wild misinterpretation that the term red pill had taken, 1:29:09.520 --> 1:29:12.439 where it's intended to be some reveal of a great 1:29:12.479 --> 1:29:17.200 truth and then was co opted by right wing weirdos 1:29:17.320 --> 1:29:20.120 who were like, yeah, and the truth is that straight 1:29:20.200 --> 1:29:23.280 white guys are oppressed, and you're like, that's not the 1:29:23.360 --> 1:29:26.400 one that was being referred to. UM. But I did 1:29:26.560 --> 1:29:30.800 just want to um quickly. It seems like the Wachowski's, 1:29:30.800 --> 1:29:34.240 I mean, the Witchowskis have responded to this, but I 1:29:34.320 --> 1:29:38.880 think the best exchange was from Lily Wichowski back in May, 1:29:40.280 --> 1:29:43.439 because that's when Elon Musk tweeted take the red Pill, 1:29:44.479 --> 1:29:49.160 and then Ivanka Trump retweeted it saying taken, and then 1:29:49.320 --> 1:29:54.479 Lily Wachowski replied by saying funk both of you, which 1:29:54.520 --> 1:29:57.439 I think is really all you need to know. That's 1:29:57.520 --> 1:30:01.240 that that's the story, and that show an icon. I 1:30:01.360 --> 1:30:04.479 remember I covered the early days of gamer Gate, which 1:30:04.560 --> 1:30:07.559 is the reactionary movement that basically folved into the Trump 1:30:07.640 --> 1:30:11.400 campaign UM, and they were all talking about the red Pill, 1:30:11.520 --> 1:30:13.479 and I was like, I feel like you haven't actually 1:30:13.560 --> 1:30:15.640 watched the Matrix, and like at the time, I was like, 1:30:15.960 --> 1:30:17.880 this will dispel this if I just I'm like, no, 1:30:17.960 --> 1:30:20.599 the Matrix is a very different theme, but it didn't 1:30:20.600 --> 1:30:25.479 work for some reason. To this day, the gap ad 1:30:25.600 --> 1:30:30.600 does predate the mat I can't believe it. Okay, I 1:30:30.720 --> 1:30:35.360 don't like the Matrix anymore. Derivative. The tech that made 1:30:35.439 --> 1:30:38.000 up bullet time has been around since like the dawn 1:30:38.040 --> 1:30:39.560 of cinema. People have been like, if we put a 1:30:39.640 --> 1:30:41.880 bunch of cameras around something in film it from all 1:30:41.920 --> 1:30:45.240 those angles, then we can But like computers were required 1:30:45.320 --> 1:30:49.559 to like actually simulate moving around, and the gap AD 1:30:50.160 --> 1:30:54.040 just like got there first. But the term bullet time 1:30:54.080 --> 1:30:58.200 specifically was coined for the Matrix. So God, I want 1:30:58.240 --> 1:30:59.840 to see that gap commercial now. I don't think I've 1:30:59.840 --> 1:31:02.720 ever seen it. Yeah, I mean i'd have to link 1:31:02.760 --> 1:31:04.679 it in the description. I say that five hundred times 1:31:04.720 --> 1:31:06.360 an episode, and then I have to go find it. 1:31:06.439 --> 1:31:10.320 And it's awful. I'm posting. I'm posting the bullet time 1:31:10.400 --> 1:31:13.920 at in chat. Thank you so much. Okay, thank you. Um. 1:31:14.600 --> 1:31:17.240 Does anyone have anything else they would like to talk 1:31:17.320 --> 1:31:22.040 about in regards to the Matrix? That's all I had, 1:31:22.200 --> 1:31:25.519 I believe. Yeah. I just wanted to state that I 1:31:25.600 --> 1:31:30.840 have found my anagram and it's a Warden fever filmy. Wow, 1:31:33.200 --> 1:31:36.719 that's really okay. Get the merch. Get the merch going amazing. 1:31:36.880 --> 1:31:40.720 Mine I couldn't find my mine all suck. I don't 1:31:40.720 --> 1:31:43.479 know what's wrong. My I got the wrong letters. Jamie. 1:31:43.600 --> 1:31:47.720 Just come up with the hacker name for yourself, and 1:31:47.840 --> 1:31:49.479 then I know. I used to do a whole show 1:31:49.520 --> 1:31:51.840 about hackers, but I didn't know what I was talking about, 1:31:51.880 --> 1:31:55.160 so I've had to stop doing the show. But maybe 1:31:55.240 --> 1:31:58.320 that name will be more in agrammable. It's true, it's 1:31:58.400 --> 1:32:01.720 just a thought. I'll work on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um. 1:32:02.320 --> 1:32:07.519 We've had this conversation before on the other Matrix episode 1:32:07.920 --> 1:32:11.720 that has been lost to time, about whether or not 1:32:12.040 --> 1:32:16.320 this movie passes the Bechdel test. Yeah, and I feel 1:32:16.400 --> 1:32:18.560 I don't remember what we concluded, and I did not 1:32:18.720 --> 1:32:21.400 remember to pay attention to whether or not it passes 1:32:21.880 --> 1:32:24.800 when I was watching it this time around. I think 1:32:24.880 --> 1:32:31.000 it's a barely pass situation due to a quick exchange 1:32:31.240 --> 1:32:34.839 that Trinity and Switch have in the car when Neo's 1:32:34.840 --> 1:32:38.559 got the bug all scooting around in his guts. It's 1:32:38.600 --> 1:32:41.400 possible that he's the subtext of that conversation. But I'm 1:32:41.600 --> 1:32:44.720 inclined to just want to give this movie anything we can. 1:32:44.960 --> 1:32:47.439 But I didn't know that they have like one or 1:32:47.520 --> 1:32:49.559 two exchanges they are just between the two of them 1:32:49.760 --> 1:32:53.200 that I believe are about the bug. They're about the bug, 1:32:53.320 --> 1:32:55.880 but the bug is in Neo, so I don't know 1:32:56.920 --> 1:32:59.040 about it. I mean, we've all got a bug inside 1:32:59.080 --> 1:33:03.519 of us somewhere, so technically that's true, the Bug and 1:33:03.600 --> 1:33:10.439 the Bug famously genderless, genderless icon the Bug, the Bug. Yeah, 1:33:10.640 --> 1:33:13.400 And then I remember talking about how there's a conversation 1:33:13.520 --> 1:33:17.160 where when Cipher is sabotaging them and when he kills 1:33:17.720 --> 1:33:21.400 Switch and Apoc, he's talking to Trinity and he's like, 1:33:21.439 --> 1:33:23.880 if there's anything terribly important you have to say to Switch, 1:33:24.040 --> 1:33:27.080 say it now. And then before Trinity can say anything 1:33:27.200 --> 1:33:30.360 to switch and then maybe pass the Bechdel test. Uh, 1:33:30.600 --> 1:33:35.080 cipher kills switch. So he really doesn't want women to 1:33:35.160 --> 1:33:39.000 talk to each other. Yeah, that's why he's not an ally, 1:33:39.479 --> 1:33:43.360 not because he's murdering people. Now, technically, you're right, this 1:33:43.479 --> 1:33:46.960 movie does barely pass because the bug is genderless. But 1:33:47.080 --> 1:33:51.320 when you consider that Neo and Trinity are both trans lesbians, 1:33:52.000 --> 1:33:57.760 then it passes so much flying colors. Let's go with that. 1:33:59.080 --> 1:34:03.280 I just I just want to give this movie nice. Thanks, Jamie. 1:34:03.280 --> 1:34:05.759 I'm so glad you like it. I was not sure 1:34:05.920 --> 1:34:08.519 if you would because I know you're famously not an 1:34:08.560 --> 1:34:11.920 action movie fan. But it's not just an action movie. 1:34:12.000 --> 1:34:15.120 There's so much coming with so much more, and they 1:34:15.160 --> 1:34:17.920 have a little horny Will Poulter character. I'm like, you 1:34:18.000 --> 1:34:21.160 know what, I like the movie. It's good. No, I 1:34:21.479 --> 1:34:25.560 really loved it. There is this on the website that 1:34:26.000 --> 1:34:28.840 exists in service of the Bechtel test, which is I 1:34:28.920 --> 1:34:31.040 think wrong quite a bit of the time. But spectel 1:34:31.080 --> 1:34:35.719 test dot com there is such an extensive conversation arguing 1:34:35.760 --> 1:34:37.720 about whether this movie passes the Bechtel test. No one 1:34:37.720 --> 1:34:40.639 seems to agree. I just pulled it up and people 1:34:40.680 --> 1:34:43.519 do talk about that scene in the car, and people 1:34:43.560 --> 1:34:45.920 are arguing about what we were just talking about of like, 1:34:46.040 --> 1:34:49.600 well the bug in the which, honestly, if you have 1:34:49.760 --> 1:34:51.640 to get I feel like our rule of thumb is like, 1:34:51.680 --> 1:34:52.960 if you have to get that far in the weeds 1:34:52.960 --> 1:34:55.360 about it, it probably doesn't test the Recktel test if 1:34:55.360 --> 1:34:57.760 you have to like split hairs like that. But I 1:34:57.880 --> 1:35:01.160 think under Emily's qualification it does pass, and let's not 1:35:01.280 --> 1:35:03.680 worry about it. I'll just go on that site and 1:35:03.720 --> 1:35:05.400 I'll be like, no, listen, everyone in this movie is 1:35:05.400 --> 1:35:12.360 a trans lesbian. Passes every test. The whole movie passes. Yeah. Also, 1:35:13.000 --> 1:35:15.439 as we always say that, you know, the Bechtel test 1:35:15.600 --> 1:35:18.519 is not the end all be all for anything. It's 1:35:18.520 --> 1:35:20.960 just a jumping off point. What is the end all 1:35:21.000 --> 1:35:25.559 be all is the nipple scale? Yes, which is our 1:35:26.200 --> 1:35:34.719 metric zero. Really appreciated your visceral reaction of hear us out. Technically, 1:35:35.080 --> 1:35:37.640 this movie has obviously I know what we're going to 1:35:37.720 --> 1:35:39.160 do here, but this I was just thinking about how 1:35:39.200 --> 1:35:40.840 this movie has a whole bunch of other nipples on 1:35:40.920 --> 1:35:43.080 your back, Like those are just kind of got some 1:35:43.200 --> 1:35:46.520 back nipples. They've got back nipples. You've got armed nipples, 1:35:46.760 --> 1:35:49.640 You've got the back of the head nipple. There's a 1:35:49.680 --> 1:35:52.840 lot um wowskis. Know what we wanted. It's nipples and 1:35:53.560 --> 1:35:57.639 it's like hard plastic black Witchy saw Joel Schumacher nipples 1:35:57.680 --> 1:36:00.559 and we're like, we could, we can do more wreaking 1:36:00.600 --> 1:36:06.720 to Okay, So zero to five nipples based on how 1:36:06.840 --> 1:36:13.200 the movie fares examining it through an intersectional feminist lens, Gosh, 1:36:13.439 --> 1:36:17.200 me loving this movie so deeply might cloud my judgment 1:36:17.240 --> 1:36:20.679 a bit here, But I love that there are multiple 1:36:20.760 --> 1:36:24.200 different reads of this movie, one of them being this 1:36:24.600 --> 1:36:28.080 really interesting trans allegory. I love that this is a 1:36:28.200 --> 1:36:33.400 major franchise directed by trans women, which hopefully paves the 1:36:33.439 --> 1:36:37.840 way for there to be more transvisibility on screen of 1:36:38.000 --> 1:36:42.400 actual trans people and not just it all being a 1:36:42.479 --> 1:36:47.519 metaphor that features all siss people. You know that that's 1:36:47.720 --> 1:36:50.400 like the goal that we're aiming for, right, is just 1:36:50.600 --> 1:36:54.280 like more visibility and hopefully things don't have to be 1:36:55.240 --> 1:36:59.320 coded and um steeped in metaphor and and things like that. 1:36:59.400 --> 1:37:03.200 But it was nine to Trinity being a character who 1:37:03.240 --> 1:37:07.200 I always loved and admired, and that was so Cool 1:37:07.439 --> 1:37:11.720 and I love just everything about the damn movie. I'm 1:37:11.760 --> 1:37:19.439 going to give it four nipples plus maybe also a 1:37:19.479 --> 1:37:23.000 half nipple on top of that. Is that too much? Yeah? 1:37:23.080 --> 1:37:27.080 We we do give halves and sometimes even quarter nipples. 1:37:27.240 --> 1:37:29.760 Get into the decimals if you need to. You know, 1:37:30.280 --> 1:37:34.200 it's point three through three repeating, um, whatever it needs 1:37:34.280 --> 1:37:38.759 to be. I mean maybe I'm being too generous, but again, 1:37:39.080 --> 1:37:42.680 I love this movie. I think it holds up and 1:37:42.720 --> 1:37:45.120 I'm gonna go out four and a half nipples done, love, 1:37:45.280 --> 1:37:48.240 Who are you giving your nipples too? I'm going to 1:37:48.439 --> 1:37:54.679 give one to Keanu Reeves, who is the best man alive. 1:37:55.680 --> 1:37:59.599 I'm going to give one to Gloria Foster, who plays 1:37:59.680 --> 1:38:04.160 the Cool. I'll give one nipple to Blenda McClory, who 1:38:04.200 --> 1:38:08.880 plays Switch. I'll give one nipple to Laurence Fishburn. And 1:38:08.920 --> 1:38:11.800 I'll give my half nipple to the little Black Cat, 1:38:11.920 --> 1:38:16.479 who we see twice in the deja vu scene, Little Flee. 1:38:16.720 --> 1:38:18.559 He's just like my cat. Yeah, so for and half 1:38:18.640 --> 1:38:22.040 nipples boom. I'm going to go for and half as well, 1:38:22.880 --> 1:38:25.320 mostly because I'm like, I like this movie so much. 1:38:25.439 --> 1:38:30.360 What a what a long standing edging experience of saying 1:38:30.400 --> 1:38:32.519 I was going to watch this movie, never doing it, 1:38:33.120 --> 1:38:35.920 lying out my ass and then learning that I loved 1:38:35.960 --> 1:38:38.479 it and I'm excited to watch it again, and I'm 1:38:38.479 --> 1:38:40.920 excited to watch the new one too, Jimmie, let's go together. 1:38:41.439 --> 1:38:43.280 We should. Oh yeah, let's go because I know it's 1:38:43.280 --> 1:38:45.080 it's coming out on HBO Max, but it seems like 1:38:45.120 --> 1:38:50.280 something that you should see. I would love to, so yeah, 1:38:50.360 --> 1:38:53.400 I I'll echo what you're saying there, Caitlin. There are 1:38:53.439 --> 1:38:56.639 certainly like dated elements to certain things of the plot, 1:38:56.720 --> 1:38:59.160 but you know, it's as far as movies from this 1:38:59.280 --> 1:39:02.760 year goes. I mean, what more can you ask for? 1:39:03.080 --> 1:39:05.360 And it's also just I don't know, it's like such 1:39:05.439 --> 1:39:09.160 a movie. Does that make sense? You know, it's such 1:39:09.200 --> 1:39:12.840 a movie movie. And I was just interested in every 1:39:12.920 --> 1:39:17.800 second and everyone was so unique, even though they all 1:39:17.920 --> 1:39:19.439 kind of like look the same, but that also they 1:39:19.479 --> 1:39:22.400 didn't and there was a lot of diversity, and they're like, 1:39:22.600 --> 1:39:26.160 I just it's so fun. I'm excited to watch this 1:39:26.280 --> 1:39:28.880 movie again and not have to take notes this time. 1:39:28.920 --> 1:39:32.880 It's going to be fun. Yeah. Uh so, I'm gonna 1:39:32.880 --> 1:39:34.720 give it for and a half nipples. I'll give one 1:39:34.840 --> 1:39:38.800 to Trinity. I'll give one to the Oracle. I'm gonna 1:39:38.920 --> 1:39:45.599 give one to Mouse. Sorry, uh loved mouse, loved mouse. 1:39:46.640 --> 1:39:48.920 I think we really should have paused more to he 1:39:49.240 --> 1:39:51.360 was he wanted to cheeseburg and he was horny. Love him. 1:39:52.040 --> 1:39:55.680 I'll give half a nipple to Hugo Weaving's lips, and 1:39:55.760 --> 1:39:58.519 I'll give my last nipple to the witch House key sisters. 1:39:59.680 --> 1:40:04.840 I'm how about you. Well, listen it sounds you know 1:40:05.200 --> 1:40:07.800 if I come back on here and do the net, 1:40:08.280 --> 1:40:11.920 and I'm like, if I give the Matrix anything less 1:40:11.960 --> 1:40:14.640 than five, I'm going to feel like I'm insulting it 1:40:14.720 --> 1:40:16.160 when I come on here and do the net and 1:40:16.200 --> 1:40:17.599 I'm like, I don't know, like two and a half, 1:40:17.880 --> 1:40:21.160 you know, Like, so I'm giving it. I'm giving it 1:40:21.240 --> 1:40:23.040 to full five. I'm giving it to full five. I think, 1:40:23.200 --> 1:40:28.000 especially for its era, it is groundbreaking and impressive and 1:40:28.800 --> 1:40:31.360 that it mostly holds up today. And you can like 1:40:31.600 --> 1:40:34.439 quibble with some of the casting choices. You can quibble with, 1:40:34.680 --> 1:40:38.479 like it's presentation of transness, etcetera, but like it still 1:40:38.560 --> 1:40:41.559 holds up in a way that like most other action 1:40:41.640 --> 1:40:43.960 movies of this era, don't like you think about this 1:40:44.080 --> 1:40:46.240 came out to say, just a couple of months before 1:40:46.479 --> 1:40:49.639 UM Star Wars Episode one, and you're just like, those 1:40:49.680 --> 1:40:55.040 are those movies are from different planets entirely. So I'm 1:40:55.040 --> 1:40:57.360 going to give a nipple to carry In Moss because 1:40:57.439 --> 1:41:02.240 she's she's the best. I'll give one to Kianu. Kiano deserves. 1:41:02.439 --> 1:41:04.160 He only has one nipple right now. He needs to 1:41:04.600 --> 1:41:07.560 needs to nipples. Yeah, that's good for him. Uh you 1:41:07.640 --> 1:41:09.160 know what I got. I gotta give one to the 1:41:09.280 --> 1:41:12.760 Witch House Ki sisters, who are just the best and 1:41:13.360 --> 1:41:15.600 some of my favorite filmmakers of all time. And you know, 1:41:15.720 --> 1:41:19.479 I just want to hang out with them so they 1:41:19.520 --> 1:41:23.200 seem so cool. I want to um give a nipple 1:41:23.280 --> 1:41:29.360 to Bill Pope's cinematography, which is legitimately groundbreaking, change the world, 1:41:29.880 --> 1:41:31.840 et cetera. I'm gonna give a I'm going to split 1:41:31.880 --> 1:41:34.120 my last nipple one into I'm sorry, I'm breaking the 1:41:34.240 --> 1:41:37.679 roles to get a half nipple to the Bug because 1:41:37.800 --> 1:41:41.000 we love the book. I'm going to give my other 1:41:41.080 --> 1:41:43.920 half nipple to producer Joel Silver, not because I actually like, 1:41:44.040 --> 1:41:46.240 I'm like, oh wow, great Joel Silver, though he did 1:41:46.320 --> 1:41:48.360 get this movie made when like a lot of producers 1:41:48.360 --> 1:41:50.679 wouldn't have. But because I like the image of someone 1:41:50.760 --> 1:41:53.080 like knocking on his door in the middle of the 1:41:53.200 --> 1:41:55.200 night and he comes and looks down and there's just 1:41:55.320 --> 1:41:58.160 half a nipple laying on his doorstep. I think I 1:41:58.320 --> 1:42:01.120 just like that image. So Joel Silver, you get half 1:42:01.120 --> 1:42:05.680 a nipple. I bet he appreciates it. But yeah, he 1:42:06.080 --> 1:42:07.640 first made a view it as a threat, but then 1:42:07.680 --> 1:42:09.639 once he gave him the context he needed, I think 1:42:09.680 --> 1:42:11.680 he'd come around. He'd be so happy. It's like that 1:42:11.840 --> 1:42:14.680 part in the Matrix when like Neo is rejecting this 1:42:14.800 --> 1:42:16.840 whole thing and he's like, I don't believe it. Let 1:42:16.880 --> 1:42:18.320 me out here, and then he barfs all over the 1:42:18.360 --> 1:42:20.600 floor and then he collapsed his face first into his 1:42:20.680 --> 1:42:23.840 own barf. But then like in the next scene, he's like, Okay, 1:42:23.880 --> 1:42:31.360 I guess it's fine. Perfect the agreeable guy that Emily. 1:42:31.439 --> 1:42:33.720 Thank you so much for joining us and for being here. 1:42:33.920 --> 1:42:35.880 Come back for the net, come back for anything you 1:42:35.920 --> 1:42:38.320 thank you, thank you. I'd love to come back. I 1:42:38.360 --> 1:42:42.639 had a blast. Good. Where can people check out your writing? 1:42:43.040 --> 1:42:46.280 Follow you on social media? Plug anything you want to plug. 1:42:47.080 --> 1:42:49.760 I'm on Twitter at twitter dot com, slash Emily V 1:42:49.960 --> 1:42:52.479 d w um, I get up to all sorts of nonsense. 1:42:52.560 --> 1:42:55.160 They're actually less because I've mostly locked out of Twitter, 1:42:55.280 --> 1:42:57.120 but I do tweet every song for the best look 1:42:57.120 --> 1:43:00.920 at me and yeah, my writing appears vox dot com. 1:43:01.479 --> 1:43:03.519 I also have a newsletter where I just write some 1:43:03.640 --> 1:43:06.800 of my weirder ideas. That's Emily vdW dot letter, Drop 1:43:06.880 --> 1:43:11.360 dot com. I co create Right Show, Run et cetera, 1:43:11.880 --> 1:43:16.519 occasionally play a whale in the scripted fiction podcast Arden. 1:43:16.600 --> 1:43:19.880 It is about two women who solve Colt cases and 1:43:20.080 --> 1:43:23.040 try not to fall in love. Um. It is a comedy, 1:43:23.080 --> 1:43:27.280 but it's also about my weird drauma. Um so that 1:43:27.560 --> 1:43:31.360 hooray uh and you can I. I published a book 1:43:31.360 --> 1:43:32.840 a couple of years ago that I still bring up 1:43:32.880 --> 1:43:35.560 with Monsters of the Week, complete critical companion to the 1:43:35.680 --> 1:43:39.560 X Files. You could find it in at various booksellers. Amazing, 1:43:39.920 --> 1:43:43.240 Thank you so much for coming yet. Truly, you're one 1:43:43.240 --> 1:43:45.080 of my favorite writers in the world, and I'm so 1:43:45.479 --> 1:43:48.519 glad that you could be here with us. Thank you 1:43:48.640 --> 1:43:51.599 so much. I love this show, and um, I'm glad 1:43:51.640 --> 1:43:53.800 that I could make it and talk about nipples. So 1:43:54.320 --> 1:44:01.080 amazing come back for the net. I would love to um. 1:44:01.320 --> 1:44:05.840 You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram. At spectel cast. 1:44:06.120 --> 1:44:10.680 You can subscribe to our Patreon a k A Matreon 1:44:11.040 --> 1:44:14.080 at patreon dot com, slash pecktel Cast. You get to 1:44:14.280 --> 1:44:18.000 bonus episodes every month, plus access to the entire back 1:44:18.200 --> 1:44:22.160 catalog of over one hundred bonus episodes. And that's all 1:44:22.400 --> 1:44:26.080 for five dollars a month. We're doing some cursed holiday 1:44:26.160 --> 1:44:31.400 favorites this month, surprise, and you can get speaking of 1:44:31.640 --> 1:44:35.519 holidays if you're capitalism NG, you can go to t 1:44:35.680 --> 1:44:38.080 public dot com slash the pytel cast and pick up 1:44:38.120 --> 1:44:40.880 some merch or not. We won't know, and it's up 1:44:40.920 --> 1:44:43.840 to you. And and what's a good way to end 1:44:44.240 --> 1:44:47.559 this episode? Um? What is? What is neo? Okay? Neo? 1:44:47.600 --> 1:44:50.560 At the very end, he's just like, Okay, oh, I 1:44:50.640 --> 1:44:53.720 know you're out there and I'm going to show these 1:44:53.760 --> 1:44:55.840 people what you don't want them to see. And then 1:44:55.920 --> 1:45:00.160 he hangs up the phone and it's likely do they're 1:45:00.160 --> 1:45:04.479 turn Can you add in the rage against the machine 1:45:04.520 --> 1:45:07.160 at the end of this episode? Yes? How many seconds 1:45:07.200 --> 1:45:09.200 can you get away with of like an audio clip 1:45:09.280 --> 1:45:12.519 before you get sued for copyright stuff? We'll tie, We'll 1:45:12.560 --> 1:45:16.439 take it off Mike who knows uh all right? Click 1:45:17.000 --> 1:45:54.040 click on