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Speaker 1: On the Bell cast, the questions asked if movies have

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Speaker 1: women and um are all their discussions just boyfriends and

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Speaker 1: husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in

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Speaker 1: best start changing it with the bec Del cast. Jamie, Hi, Caitlin. Hi, sorry,

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Speaker 1: it's not Caitlin, it's morpheoush. I just want to tell

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Speaker 1: you that you're the one meet you, but I'm so

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Speaker 1: sexy and regular. Well that's just that you're too sexy

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Speaker 1: to be regular. Oh my god. Therefore you are the

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Speaker 1: one that is how movies work, isn't it. Wow? Well, um, okay,

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Speaker 1: I I accept. I accept this call to adventure, except

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Speaker 1: that you're gonna have to get kidnapped for reasons that

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Speaker 1: are a little confusing to me, and the stakes are

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Speaker 1: going to continue to rise from there. Sure sure, sure,

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Speaker 1: Oh wait, I have one more condition. Yes, yes, I

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Speaker 1: need to get a little kiss at the end. Okay. Well,

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Speaker 1: hey Jamie, it's it's a trinity now, Hi. Hi, And

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to tell you that the oracle told

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Speaker 1: me that I would fall in love with somebody, and

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Speaker 1: that somebody would be the one that's me and it's

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Speaker 1: and I'm in love with you further confirming that you're

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Speaker 1: the one. So can I have a little kiss? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Here you go. Well, thank you. But that was a

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Speaker 1: very smooth intro. I think my intro is going to

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Speaker 1: be very somber because I feel, well, let's introduce the

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Speaker 1: show and then I have to make an apology and

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Speaker 1: then I think we can get the episode started. Sure,

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Speaker 1: for sure, I have a serious apology to make. So Hi,

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Speaker 1: it's me Caitlin Durante. It's me Jamie loftus little tail

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Speaker 1: between my legs. And this is the Pectel Cast. It

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Speaker 1: is our show where we examine film through an intersectional

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Speaker 1: feminist lens, using the Bectel Tests simply as a jumping

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Speaker 1: off point, which of course is a media metric created

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Speaker 1: by queer cartoonist Alice in Bectel, sometimes called the Bectel

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Speaker 1: Wallace Test. Uh. There are many variations on the test.

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Speaker 1: This is the one that we are currently using, where

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Speaker 1: two people of any marginalized gender must have names, they

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Speaker 1: must speak to each other, and that conversation has to

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Speaker 1: be about something other than a man. Ideally it's a

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Speaker 1: meaningful conversation that is like narratively relevant. Yes, okay, Uh,

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Speaker 1: do you mind if I just please, you've got the floor.

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Speaker 1: I have a prepared statement really quickly. Okay, hello listeners,

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Speaker 1: this is Jamie Loftus. You might remember that almost exactly

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Speaker 1: five years ago to the day, we released an episode

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Speaker 1: about the movie The Matrix on this very podcast. The

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Speaker 1: guest was comedian Matt donnaher lovely man, who we still

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Speaker 1: have a friendship with. However, if you try to listen

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Speaker 1: to this episode today, you will not be able to

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Speaker 1: find it. And that is because as of December twenty

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Speaker 1: I didn't actually watched The Matrix before we recorded the episode.

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Speaker 1: I was very busy that week. It was the holidays,

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Speaker 1: and I was drunk at the recording off of Mike's

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Speaker 1: Hard Lemonade. Off of Mike's Hard Lemonade, as was my

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Speaker 1: custom at the time. I would learned years later, that's

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Speaker 1: actually not adorable to do. Um. So I just wanted

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Speaker 1: to uh apol. I've been receiving criticism for never having

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Speaker 1: watched The Matrix when I was twenty three. For years now.

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Speaker 1: It's been it's something that's uh, you know, a common

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Speaker 1: criticism has been brought up to me at shows. It's

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Speaker 1: been tweeted at me repeatedly. It's on our Wikipedia page

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Speaker 1: that I've never seen the Matrix. Um it took five years,

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Speaker 1: but work course correcting. I'm a new person. I've been

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Speaker 1: uh living, laughing, loving and learning and I really liked

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Speaker 1: The Matrix and I'm excited for today's episode. So sorry

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Speaker 1: one last time for not watching The Matrix five years ago.

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Speaker 1: And if I could editor allies for just a second,

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Speaker 1: I think it's very weird how mad everyone Wasn't me.

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Speaker 1: We didn't make any money out the podcast. Then there's

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Speaker 1: people people were mad, some of them, but there are

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Speaker 1: I would say, just as many people who think it's

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Speaker 1: awesome that you didn't see it and still writ prepare

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Speaker 1: well it would be. You could be bad now because

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Speaker 1: now it's our job, but back then it was our hobby,

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Speaker 1: and um yeah I was. I don't know who knows.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't matter. We are doing the episode now and

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Speaker 1: we have a wonderful guest, so let's get her in here. Indeed,

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Speaker 1: she is the critic at large for Vox. She's the

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Speaker 1: co creator of the podcast art In. It's Emily Vanderworth. Hello, Hello,

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Speaker 1: it's so good to be here. And if you're wondering

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Speaker 1: who the skywriter was above your house, that said, please

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Speaker 1: watch the Matrix, Jamie. That was I learned how to

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Speaker 1: fly a plane just for that. You flew the plane

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Speaker 1: in everything. Yes I did. It's the personal touch, it

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Speaker 1: really really is, and that her me extra deeply as

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Speaker 1: a result. Yeah, well, you're also leaving out that you

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Speaker 1: learned to fly the plane by just like having a

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Speaker 1: training software uploaded immediately into your brain floppy disc. They

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Speaker 1: plugged it into my brain and I was like, now

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Speaker 1: I can fly in nineteen twenties biplane. Cool. I'm so

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Speaker 1: excited for this episode, and we're so stuked that you're

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Speaker 1: here to talk about the movie with us. Emily. Um,

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Speaker 1: so this is this is our the So I guess

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Speaker 1: whenever we cover franchise, we're covering the first movie. This

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Speaker 1: episode will be released lining up with the new Matrix movie,

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Speaker 1: which I just I guess right at the top. I'm

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Speaker 1: curious if if y'all think it looks any good. I

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Speaker 1: can't tell. I can't tell. I think so. I think

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Speaker 1: it's going to be great. Yeah, Okay, I've just had

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Speaker 1: my ass handed to me. No I I am, but

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Speaker 1: I'm a Wachowski home homer. You know, I think they're great. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, they've made a couple of movies I don't love,

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Speaker 1: like I think the Third Matrix is their weakest film,

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Speaker 1: but I still watch it all the time, so you know,

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Speaker 1: it's I'm excited for it. I'm excited that it's very

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Speaker 1: colorful from the trailers. I'm excited for Keanu Reeves to

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Speaker 1: have a little rubber ducky on his head. Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 1: I well, because I've watched the trailer dozens and dozens

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Speaker 1: of times, mostly because I was like, well, first, I

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Speaker 1: think it's very fun and it's great, and I think

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Speaker 1: it makes the movie look great. I'm excited to see it.

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Speaker 1: But also I was trying to figure out a Halloween

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Speaker 1: costume for this year, and I was like, m, my

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Speaker 1: hair length is about the same hair length as Kanus

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Speaker 1: in the trailer. Maybe I'll dress up as Kanu like

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Speaker 1: from the New Matrix movie. But he doesn't have necessarily

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Speaker 1: a consistent look in the trailer. And also he like

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Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily look like Neo famously looks with all of

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Speaker 1: his like kind of has his like John Wick hair

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Speaker 1: a little bit. Yeah, right, and then he's just wearing

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Speaker 1: like scarves and like just regular clothes and like not

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Speaker 1: his at least in the trailer again, like you don't

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Speaker 1: see him with his like black trench coat and sunglasses

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Speaker 1: all that stuff. So I just kind of picked a

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Speaker 1: random look and replicated that there's like you see him

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Speaker 1: for like seventeen frames or something like that. And I

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Speaker 1: was just like, well, this is this is my costume

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Speaker 1: this year, so I will share that on our Instagram.

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Speaker 1: But um, it was a solid costume. It was good.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much. So Emily, tell us what is

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Speaker 1: your relationship your history with the Matrix slash the whole franchise. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I saw this movie in theaters when it came out,

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Speaker 1: but like very late, like after the buzz had kind

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Speaker 1: of died down, because it was it was huge for

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Speaker 1: a while, and I remember I was like very irritated

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Speaker 1: by the marketing because I was someone who cared about that.

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Speaker 1: At that time. It was like what is the Matrix? Was?

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Speaker 1: Like all the marketing was um. And so I saw

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Speaker 1: it several weeks after it opened with my then girlfriend,

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Speaker 1: and I remember it just it spoke to me in

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Speaker 1: a way I didn't entirely comprehend, but I just I

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Speaker 1: loved it. And then I watched it. You know, probably

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Speaker 1: dozens of times when it was on DVD, and I

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Speaker 1: saw it again a few years ago in the theater um.

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Speaker 1: I think it's it's one of the most perfect movies

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Speaker 1: ever made, like there's not really anything in it that

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Speaker 1: doesn't work. I kind of prefer the second one because

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Speaker 1: I am a weird woman who likes imperfect babies and

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Speaker 1: just like holding it up and being like, your head's

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Speaker 1: a little dented, but I still love you. I think.

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Speaker 1: I think the third one. I've seen this argument of

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Speaker 1: the third one, in the second one should be considered

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Speaker 1: one big movie, and in that case, the third one

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Speaker 1: is better, but it isn't isolated thing. I do think

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Speaker 1: it's The Witch House kis weakest movie, but like it

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Speaker 1: not bad. I enjoy watching it. But the second one,

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Speaker 1: I think is My Dented Little Baby. I really enjoyed

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Speaker 1: the second one as well. I would say I mildly

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Speaker 1: enjoyed it. I far prefer the first one. I agree

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Speaker 1: that it's a perfect movie, and I don't know what

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Speaker 1: it says about me that I like perfect things. You know,

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Speaker 1: like liking perfect things is fine, you know, it's just

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Speaker 1: you know, it's it's uh, you look at that dented

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Speaker 1: little baby. And you're like, no, get rid of that one,

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Speaker 1: throw that one away. I am not like that. So

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Speaker 1: so yeah, that's actually a huge flow. Let the baby

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Speaker 1: have a dead. Oh goodness, um, Jamie, what is your well?

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Speaker 1: You you did read your prepared statement. I just I

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Speaker 1: just give a really long winded I should have saved

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Speaker 1: it for here. I have never seen it. I lied

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Speaker 1: about it five years ago. Uh, and then I have

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Speaker 1: now seen it twice and I loved it. I really like.

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Speaker 1: I wish I hadn't been so glad formatively out watching

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Speaker 1: it as a bit because it is such a good

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Speaker 1: movie and I've really enjoyed. Um, I don't know, I

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Speaker 1: feel like but with some certain movies, you're like, I

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Speaker 1: don't really want to engage with the fan culture around

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Speaker 1: certain movies. But I've really enjoyed reading more about the

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Speaker 1: Matrix and learning more about it. And I liked the

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Speaker 1: sequel and I'm interested in what the new one is like.

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Speaker 1: And I skipped the third one because I didn't have

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Speaker 1: the stamina. But I yeah, the first Matrix movie, I

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Speaker 1: can say with the whole heart, I loved it. What

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Speaker 1: about you? I am a long, long, long time Matrix fan.

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Speaker 1: I saw the movie at a drive in movie theater

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Speaker 1: when it came out. I was like thirteen percent didn't

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Speaker 1: understand it all the first time I saw it, but

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Speaker 1: I think on subsequent viewings I did understand. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if it was because like I'm thirteen and I

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Speaker 1: don't under like, I don't like this is confusing, or

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Speaker 1: if it's just because I was like distracted and with

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Speaker 1: my friends. Anyway, I think I had it figured out

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Speaker 1: by the second watch, and I've seen it like probably

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Speaker 1: fifty times since then. I watched this movie multiple times

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Speaker 1: a year. I love it. I think it's perfect, and

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Speaker 1: it holds up so surprisingly well for a movie from

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Speaker 1: because we've covered a lot of movies from this podcast,

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Speaker 1: and I would say almost none of them hold up,

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Speaker 1: but The Matrix does very much does. Yes, I'm really

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Speaker 1: I mean, just one of the like hottest casts ever assembled.

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Speaker 1: Also just a gorgeous just just everyone is so incredibly

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Speaker 1: beautiful of this movie. Uh, that's my contribution to the

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Speaker 1: discourse today. I mean, honestly, I was going to make

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Speaker 1: a joke about Joe Pantoliano, but like he's never been hotter,

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Speaker 1: He's really hot. He joey pants is hot. His goatee.

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Speaker 1: Even fine, I'll take it. I like, you know, the

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Speaker 1: thing is with Joey Fans is goot. I like when

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Speaker 1: someone makes a strong choice, and that's what Jelley Fans

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Speaker 1: is doing with the goatee. I love that for him.

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Speaker 1: All right, Should I recap the story and we'll go

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Speaker 1: from there. Let's do it, and Emily jump in whenever.

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Speaker 1: During the recap, we're fast and loose. Here it's an

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Speaker 1: open forum, okay. So we open on some images of

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Speaker 1: some kind of computer code. Uh. Then we meet Trinity,

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Speaker 1: who's played by Carrie and Moss. Some cops have her surrounded.

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Speaker 1: Hugo Weaving in a suit. A K agent Smith is

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Speaker 1: also after her. There's a fight, they chase her. She

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Speaker 1: seems to be able to defy gravity during a lot

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Speaker 1: of this fighting and running away. She also takes control

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Speaker 1: of the cinematography for like just a couple of seconds.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, that is the opening scene is so good.

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Speaker 1: It it's just yeah, immediately the style and yeah, it's amazing.

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Speaker 1: I love it. Um. And then she escapes finally by

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Speaker 1: answering a pay phone and seemingly disappearing, and we use

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Speaker 1: the audience seeing this for the first time in or

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Speaker 1: Monday whatever earlier this week. We're like, what what is

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Speaker 1: going on? Oh my gosh. Then Agent Smith mentions an informant.

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Speaker 1: He's talking to his other agent friends. There are these

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Speaker 1: like white guys in suits. He mentions an informant and

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Speaker 1: also the next target, someone named Neo. Then we cut

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Speaker 1: to Kiana Reeves, who in this world goes by Thomas Anderson.

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Speaker 1: Someone has hacked into his computer and is sending him messages.

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Speaker 1: There's mention of the matrix. I love hearing Kiana Reeves

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Speaker 1: just read something off of the screen. It's very compelling

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Speaker 1: to me. It's very calming. I like it. Yeah, it's nice.

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Speaker 1: His performance in this movie is incredible. I love him

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Speaker 1: so much. Kianu is a national treasure. Okay, So the

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Speaker 1: person on his computer tells Kianu to follow the White Rabbit,

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Speaker 1: which ends up being a friend's tattoo, which leads him

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Speaker 1: to a club where he meets Trinity face to face.

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Speaker 1: She's like, I know that you're trying to figure out

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Speaker 1: what the matrix is. By the way, you're in danger

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Speaker 1: and you're being watched. And then the next day at work,

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Speaker 1: Kianu gets a cell phone delivered to him and then

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Speaker 1: immediately receives a call from Morpheus, who gives him instructions

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Speaker 1: on how to escape Agent Smith and the other agents

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Speaker 1: who are after him. But Kanu is unsuccessful and he

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Speaker 1: gets captured by the agents who want his help in

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Speaker 1: finding Morpheus, who they see as a terrorist. I liked

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Speaker 1: I liked that. Um. I felt like this movie could

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Speaker 1: have come out almost whenever. But there you think about

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Speaker 1: this movie. I felt like was like the office job sequence.

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Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, this is such a late nineties

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Speaker 1: like gen X, I hate my job. The man is

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Speaker 1: killing me. Like it feels like it was made just

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Speaker 1: Mike Judge just had some office space out takes, just

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Speaker 1: laying was like here you go. They just like color

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Speaker 1: corrected it green and they're like, and now it's these

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Speaker 1: are scenes from the Matrix. This is this is the

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Speaker 1: scene with with the bug in it, right, a little

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Speaker 1: bug that goes in yes belly button. UM. When I

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Speaker 1: saw this movie in nine, I saw it with my

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Speaker 1: my then girlfriend, who had enormous Reese Witherspoon energy, UM,

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Speaker 1: and she was so disgusted by this. She was just

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Speaker 1: horrified by it and like hiding her face. And I

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Speaker 1: was watching it like, yeah, this is just how life is, right,

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Speaker 1: somebody just traps you and puts a bug in you,

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Speaker 1: and then you have to just walk around with it

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Speaker 1: inside of you. And yeah, that was when I was like,

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Speaker 1: this is one of my favorite movies ever because it's

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Speaker 1: the only one that understands what it's like to have

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Speaker 1: a little bug crawling around inside you. To this day,

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Speaker 1: I cannot watch the bug either going into his belly

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Speaker 1: button or coming back out of it. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I have like a weird of belly button thing where

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Speaker 1: I just so I loved watching it. I thought how interesting.

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Speaker 1: I thought it was interesting to watch. I'm stuck on

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Speaker 1: the phrase enormous Reese Witherspoon energy. That is, like you

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Speaker 1: said it as immediately I was like, I know exactly

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Speaker 1: what that means. Yes, yes, I I dated the girls

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Speaker 1: I wanted to be at that time, but yes. This

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Speaker 1: is the scene where Neo refuses to help the agents,

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Speaker 1: so they bug him and then release him, and then

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Speaker 1: Neo gets another call from Morpheus and Morpheus is like

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Speaker 1: you're the one, and he's like, what does that mean?

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Speaker 1: And then Trinity and a couple other people switch and

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Speaker 1: APOC pick Neo up. They debug him in the other

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Speaker 1: scene I can't watch um and then they take him

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Speaker 1: to meet more Pheus, who we see in the Flesh

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Speaker 1: for the first time. He's played by Laurence Fishburne. Morpheus

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Speaker 1: gives Neo the opportunity to choose between taking a blue

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Speaker 1: pill and a red pill. Now, the blue pill will

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Speaker 1: let Neo to continue on with his life as he's

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Speaker 1: been living in and forget all about Morpheus and the Matrix,

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Speaker 1: but the red pill will give him access to the truth. Right,

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Speaker 1: and nobody ever thought about that idea again, like that

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Speaker 1: never came. No one has ever, No one has used that.

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Speaker 1: That's fun, imature, nefarious reasons even a little bit. No, okay,

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Speaker 1: So Neo takes the red pill and then Morpheus shows

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Speaker 1: him what the Matrix is. Basically, the Matrix is a

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Speaker 1: computer simulation that most humans are plugged into so that

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Speaker 1: they don't know what's actually happening, which is that it's

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Speaker 1: two years in the future and the artificially intelligent machines

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Speaker 1: grow humans like crops and use them as batteries to

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Speaker 1: power They're like post apocalyptic machine world. So all the

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Speaker 1: humans are plugged into this simulation, which basically simulates reality

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Speaker 1: or some version of reality and that's what the matrix is.

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Speaker 1: So Morpheus and his crew unplugged Neo from the matrix.

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Speaker 1: So we see him in this like pod thing that's

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Speaker 1: full of who I love when he's in the goo.

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Speaker 1: I'm a simple person, I like when he's in the give.

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Speaker 1: This is another scene where I was like, well, this

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Speaker 1: is just what life is like. Somebody unplugs you and

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Speaker 1: wake up in a pile of go Like that didn't

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Speaker 1: even registered for me. A how matter of factly that

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Speaker 1: is presented where it's like, well, now he's in goo,

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Speaker 1: and then cut to the next scene he's out of

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Speaker 1: the goo. Now, yeah, it is what it is, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: so they take him out of the goo and they

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Speaker 1: bring him aboard Morpheusis ship, the Nubuchadnezzer. We meet the

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Speaker 1: rest of the crew, which is Cipher, that's Joey Pants,

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Speaker 1: Joe Pantaliano, Mouse, Tank, and Dozer, who have all either

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Speaker 1: been unplugged from the matrix or, in the case of

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Speaker 1: Tank and Dozer, they were born in a human society

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Speaker 1: called Zion and we're never plugged in to begin with.

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Speaker 1: So Neo learns all this stuff and has difficulty accepting

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Speaker 1: the whole situation at first, but then he comes to

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Speaker 1: accept it and starts learning more about the matrix, how

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Speaker 1: to manipulate the laws of physics inside of it, how

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Speaker 1: to do kung fu, he learns how to jump really far,

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Speaker 1: things like that, and then Morpheus also explains that the

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Speaker 1: agents like Agent Smith a K. Hugo Weaving, are the

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Speaker 1: sentient programs that can kind of move throughout the matrix,

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Speaker 1: and they're basically designed to like keep order, and they

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Speaker 1: are the main antagonistic force against the people like Morpheus

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Speaker 1: and his crew while they're inside the matrix. Right. Morpheus

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Speaker 1: also tells Neo about a prophecy that the oracle made

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Speaker 1: about the one. Basically, someone would be able to destroy

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Speaker 1: the matrix and the war against the machines and bring

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Speaker 1: freedom to the humans, and as it's already been suggested,

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Speaker 1: Morpheus believes Neo to be the one. Yeah, that's a

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Speaker 1: really short walk. You just have to move, oh in

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Speaker 1: front of an andy, Like, you don't have to do

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Speaker 1: that much work. I feel like it shouldn't have taken

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Speaker 1: them that long, Right, it's true, it's written in the stars.

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Speaker 1: I do appreciate that Neo is an anagram for one,

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00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:47,600
Speaker 1: not unlike my name. Caitlin Durante is an anagram for

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00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:53,320
Speaker 1: for such things as Latin dancer, U t I, nine tips, Dracula,

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Speaker 1: and my favorite, Lauren D Titanic, Lauren D. I got

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Speaker 1: to look this up. I'm looking myself up there. They

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Speaker 1: haven't done it in a while. Wait, and I think

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Speaker 1: I always get cranky when anagrams come up, because all

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Speaker 1: mines suck. But you have every all of the vowels

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00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:14,240
Speaker 1: in your dose your middle name. No, okay, yeah, mine, don't.

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Speaker 1: I think that's cheating, that's yeah. But yeah, let let

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Speaker 1: me let me know if either of you discover any

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00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:29,040
Speaker 1: impressive anagrams of your name. In the meantime, we learned

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Speaker 1: that Cipher is a trader. He's the informant who has

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Speaker 1: been working with the agents and who is going to

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Speaker 1: sell out Morpheus because the agents want the access codes

359
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:46,600
Speaker 1: to the main frame of that human city Zion to

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Speaker 1: destroy the human population there. After getting a lot of

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00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:51,760
Speaker 1: Joey Pants's facial hair, I'm like, well, I don't know

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Speaker 1: what I expected in regards to whether he was going

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Speaker 1: to be a hero or a villain, Like, okay, right,

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Speaker 1: he just looks like a like a like a sad

365
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Speaker 1: dad who came home from his office job, and it's like,

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Speaker 1: my office job is fighting the machines, and I just

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Speaker 1: want to join the machine. The machines have such good

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00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:13,160
Speaker 1: meats at their machine restaurants. He's like, I actually get

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Speaker 1: along with the machine software guys much better, So I'm

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Speaker 1: just gonna hang out with them. I think about this

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Speaker 1: all the time. If the Matrix is real and we

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Speaker 1: are all plugged into a simulation. But then we learned

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Speaker 1: about how it is actually a prison for our minds

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Speaker 1: if given the opportunity to be freed from it. But

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Speaker 1: then to live a life that seems very dangerous, and

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Speaker 1: like the quality of living doesn't seem that great, seems

377
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Speaker 1: cold and dark, and you have to eat like goog

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Speaker 1: all the time. Like I'm like, I don't know what

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Speaker 1: I want to live in the Matrix. I did think

380
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Speaker 1: it was interesting that the like I mean, the world

381
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Speaker 1: is so carefully built out, and I like, we get

382
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Speaker 1: all these like little questions that I would have as

383
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Speaker 1: a viewer that they just like answer in text of like,

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00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,479
Speaker 1: you know, it's dangerous to tell people about the matrix

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Speaker 1: when there a certain age, which was something that I

386
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 1: thought of it like, oh yeah, that's like, if your

387
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:05,919
Speaker 1: brain is fully formed, do you want to learn that

388
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,919
Speaker 1: everything you've ever known as a lie? Probably not. Probably not.

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Speaker 1: You probably couldn't handle it. And and that's also why

390
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,920
Speaker 1: I like Mouse so much. I also like Mouse because

391
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Speaker 1: he kind of looks like We'll Poulter. But also I

392
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:23,400
Speaker 1: also like us because he's like kind I mean, he's

393
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 1: outside of the matrix, buties like the food sucks here

394
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:28,720
Speaker 1: and I want to have sex, and I'm like, yeah,

395
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,480
Speaker 1: i'd feel the same way. I designed a lady computer

396
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 1: program for me to have sex with and that's cool,

397
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,439
Speaker 1: little rascal, and then he like explodes to death. I

398
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 1: know we're not bringing the sequels in, really, but the

399
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 1: second movie suggests everyone in Zion just just fo Yeah,

400
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,679
Speaker 1: so maybe it was more of a personal issue for Mouse.

401
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:56,040
Speaker 1: Is he just happened to not be fucking poor Mouse?

402
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 1: But I just that scene where he turns to Neo

403
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 1: and he's just like, this food is bad. I'm horny,

404
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 1: Like I love this classic Mouse. Okay, So then Morpheus

405
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,679
Speaker 1: takes Neo into the Matrix to see the Oracle to

406
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 1: hopefully confirm that Neo is in fact the one, but

407
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 1: the Oracle tells Neo that he actually isn't the one,

408
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,400
Speaker 1: and it's implied that it's because he does not yet

409
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 1: believe that he's the one. On their way back out

410
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,680
Speaker 1: of the matrix Um, where they like have to answer

411
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:39,439
Speaker 1: phones in specific places to get safely disconnected, agents ambush

412
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Speaker 1: Neo Morpheus, Trinity and the rest of the crew and

413
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 1: they kidnapped Morpheus. So Neo Trinity and everyone else tries

414
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,400
Speaker 1: to get back, but Cipher is sabotaging them and he

415
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:55,359
Speaker 1: kills Apoc and Switch. And also this is shortly before

416
00:24:55,400 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 1: this mouse gets shot by the agents and Sarah ammoniously

417
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 1: moved because he was too horny to live that mouse

418
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 1: he had to go. Makes me sad anytime anyone. I mean,

419
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 1: they really do it an amazing job of building out

420
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 1: the side characters that I'm like, oh, I think I've

421
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 1: maybe heard this character speak three or four lines of dialogue,

422
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,639
Speaker 1: but I'm still absolutely gutted when they're killed totally. So

423
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 1: much of it is the is the visuals, Like they're

424
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:27,400
Speaker 1: such distinct looking characters, they don't blend into each other,

425
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 1: especially for it's it's a somewhat diverse cast, so you

426
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 1: have like a really strong feeling for who everybody is,

427
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 1: even if you've only heard them talk two or three times,

428
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 1: and mostly they just talked about how they were horny, right, yeah, Okay.

429
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 1: So meanwhile, Agent Smith is trying to break Morpheus to

430
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 1: get access to these codes to Zion. They're basically like

431
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 1: trying to hack his brain. And since keeping Zion safe

432
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,200
Speaker 1: is the most important thing that any of these characters

433
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 1: can do, Neo, Trinity, and Tank consider pulling the plug

434
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 1: on Morpheus so he doesn't give up these mainframe codes

435
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 1: to Zion. But then Neo is like, no, there's got

436
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 1: to be another way, so he and Trinity go back

437
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 1: into the Matrix to try to save Morpheus and fight

438
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 1: the agents, and then what follows is a couple fight

439
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:27,400
Speaker 1: sequences where Neo is dodging bullets, Trinity is flying a helicopter.

440
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 1: They managed to save Morpheus, so you can picture what

441
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 1: it looks like. You've all seen because you've seen it

442
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 1: referred to in every piece of media since then. Then

443
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,439
Speaker 1: Neo gets stuck in the Matrix and has to face

444
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 1: off one on one with Agent Smith. They fight, and

445
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 1: then Agent Smith gets the upper hand and shoots Neo

446
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:55,120
Speaker 1: a bunch of times and he dies, but Trinity who

447
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: is back in the real world on Morpheus's ship. It's like, Neo,

448
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: you can't be dead because the oracle told me I

449
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: would fall in love with the one, and I love you,

450
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 1: so you're the one, and that means that you can't

451
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 1: be dead, and that brings Neo back to life. This

452
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,400
Speaker 1: is so often written off as like, you know, the obligatory,

453
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 1: the woman falls in love with the male love interest,

454
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 1: and I like, textually that's true, but it's such a

455
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:26,400
Speaker 1: fucking lesbian moment. It's so much. It's just so much like, oh,

456
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,120
Speaker 1: I know, I've known you for a couple of days,

457
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: but I'm pretty sure we're going to get married, and like,

458
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:32,439
Speaker 1: you know, nine months from now they're going to break up,

459
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:37,120
Speaker 1: but right now, yes, absolutely, it's true love. I mean

460
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 1: I never really questioned it. I always bought it. I

461
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 1: was just like, Yep, she loves him, and I mean,

462
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 1: who wouldn't love Keanu Reeves when he shows up and

463
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 1: it is all hot and amazing. Neo and Trinity are

464
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 1: just two girls who met at a at a party

465
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 1: at Barnard and just like hit it off, spent the

466
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 1: next week together, and now they've been together for twenties.

467
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: Thing years, similar to how Rose and Jack of Titanic

468
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 1: Fame of the Titanic of the Titanic famously historically is

469
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: another iconic lesbian romance. Absolutely about Actually this is a

470
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 1: total tangent. But the director of Portrait of a Lady

471
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 1: am Fire, Sleen Shama. If I didn't interview with her

472
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 1: box if you find it, she talks about how she

473
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: modeled her movie on Titanic. Yeah, yeah, wait reference we

474
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,719
Speaker 1: talked on that episode on Portrait of the Medium Fire. Awesome.

475
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: I like when I I just love when like quote

476
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 1: unquote art filmmakers are like, no, of course I watch

477
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 1: fucking Titanic, Like I don't be ridiculous. Come on. So anyway,

478
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 1: so Trinity professing her love to an unconscious Neo brings

479
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 1: Neo back to life, and so then in the Matrix,

480
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 1: he is able to finally defeat Agent Smith and proves

481
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 1: that he is the one. And then the movie ends

482
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 1: with Neo talking to someone on a pay phone. It

483
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 1: seems to be that he's like talking to the Matrix itself.

484
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: He hangs up the phone, Rage against the Machine starts

485
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 1: playing and flies away. I didn't know that the movie

486
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 1: ended on Rage against the Machine and anytime I was

487
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 1: watching it with Caitlin, I was like, anytime Rage Against

488
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: the Machine comes on, I'm instantly like in the backseat

489
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 1: of my uncle's car, Like it's just instantaneous. We're late

490
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 1: to school, he's mad, he's singing the lyrics. We're fucked.

491
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 1: I love it. I love that. I love that ending.

492
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: It is also the most about the movie. It is. Yeah,

493
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 1: it is literally just like what if we had what

494
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 1: if we had a nine in this movie? That and

495
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 1: the scene where Neo has like followed the white Rabbit

496
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: tattoo lady to the club and Rob Zombie is playing

497
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: those are the two like, Yes, this movie is extremely

498
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 1: from and it's it's obviously like all the tech, the

499
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 1: cell phones and stuff is very the Nokia phone that

500
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 1: comes out down. Yeah, every time Nokia got a shout out,

501
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: I was like, good for them, Good for them. They

502
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: they don't know that they're living in the best year

503
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 1: that they're ever going to have right now, Let's just

504
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: let them have it. I feel like Matrix four should

505
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 1: bring Nokia back, like they should just yeah they If

506
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 1: anything could it would be the fourth Matrix movie. It

507
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 1: will completely revitalize the Nokia brand. One of my great

508
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 1: dreams is to interview Lana Wachowski. She's famously pressed, shot,

509
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: it's never going to happen, But I would just ask

510
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: her about Nokia. I'd just be like, Heylan, Like, that's

511
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 1: one of the things I hit Lana. I want to

512
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: know how you feel about Nokia. Do you want to

513
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 1: bring back the brand? Like? Are you concerned about their

514
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: their market share? You know? I think we I think

515
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 1: we have a lot in company. Um let's take a

516
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: quick break and then we will come right back to

517
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: discuss and we're back, all right, Where shall we begin, friends,

518
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 1: where do you want to start? Well? Um, so, in

519
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 1: in recent years, kind of in lieu of both which

520
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 1: Houseki is coming out as trans women. The Matrix, especially

521
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: the first movie has widely been interpreted as a trans allegory,

522
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 1: which Emily you have written about, and I was just

523
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 1: wondering if you could speak to that more, speak to

524
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 1: your interpretation of the film as a trans metaphor. We'll

525
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 1: be linking to your essay. You have no pressure to

526
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: completely reiterate your essay, but actually I'm just going to

527
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 1: pull it up and read it right. Yeah, that would

528
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 1: actually be amazing. I mean, the basic idea of it

529
00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 1: is that if you were trans or even just like

530
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 1: gender nonconforming, gender curious, whatever, going online was like this

531
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 1: revolutionary new way to explore like who's your real self,

532
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 1: who's the person that you actually want to be? And

533
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 1: and for many many, many many years, it's been rumored

534
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 1: that the Witch Howskis wanted switch within the film to

535
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 1: be a woman within the matrix and a man within reality,

536
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 1: and Warner Brothers was like, no, and Kiana Reeves, I

537
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 1: think actually like just confirmed that that's true, this sort

538
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 1: of long standing rumor. When when I wrote my piece,

539
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 1: I had like tracked it down to a couple of

540
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: people where I was like, Okay, I feel like it's

541
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: probably true, but like I could never verified and like

542
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: Kianu now has confirmed it. Thank you Kiana for yeah, um,

543
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 1: but yeah it is. It is a movie about, you know,

544
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: living a dual life. It is a movie about feeling

545
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 1: like one person well you know, you're perceived as another.

546
00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: And it is very much driven by um is very

547
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: much driven by these ideas of duality, and like there

548
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 1: are just like little things like when Neo finds Trinity

549
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: in the club, he says something like I wasn't expecting

550
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: you to be a woman, and she says most guys

551
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 1: don't um. And at the end, when Agent Smith is

552
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 1: you know, beating up Neo, he continues to call Neo

553
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: Mr Anderson, and Neo says, my name is Neo. It's

554
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: you know, pretty classic dead naming allegory. And of course

555
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 1: there's the famous thing of like, at the time the

556
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 1: movie was made out, the pills that contained estrogen were read,

557
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 1: so taking the red pill was estrogen or whatever. I think.

558
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 1: And I say this as like the person that brought

559
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: a lot of this into the mainstream by writing that essay.

560
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 1: I think it is a little overstated that Wachowski is

561
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 1: like Lily Wachowski has given an interview where she was like,

562
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 1: I was not unconsciously thinking about that at the time.

563
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 1: Now I see how it filtered in. But like creating

564
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 1: this idea that like everything and it is an intentional allegory,

565
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 1: I think kind of cheapens the movie and also cheapens

566
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 1: trans storytelling in a lot of ways. But the thing

567
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 1: that I think is is most trans about it is

568
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 1: that the second that Neo learns that this one thing

569
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 1: about his life is a lie, he becomes a communist.

570
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 1: So um he he's just like I'm going to tear

571
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 1: down modern society and blah blah blah blah blah. Like

572
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,319
Speaker 1: it is the thing I think gets lost a little

573
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 1: bit and discussions of this film is how incredibly incredibly

574
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,319
Speaker 1: leftist it is, especially for and the sequels go even

575
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 1: further in that regard. But yeah, like I think it

576
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,879
Speaker 1: is inescapable that there is a huge trans allegory read

577
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 1: of this film. I'm just always very cautious of Like,

578
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: it's not the only read of this movie that is valid.

579
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 1: Just because two trans women made it doesn't mean the

580
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 1: only way you can interpret it is as a trans allegory.

581
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,800
Speaker 1: That's just one of many ratings that sits alongside others,

582
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 1: and like that that's not me saying that to you.

583
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 1: That's me saying that to the internet, which is now,

584
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 1: which is now, Like if you go on Twitter, they're like,

585
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: here's this is a this is a thing. All trans

586
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 1: people know is if you go on Twitter and you say,

587
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 1: did you know the Matrix was a trans allegory made

588
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:05,839
Speaker 1: by two trans women and here's the reasons, you will

589
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 1: get three thousand retweets in like an hour. Becausist people,

590
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 1: This blows their fucking minds. They're just like, what the

591
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 1: matrix I've seen that movie? Am I trans now? And

592
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 1: then hopefully that like opens a door in their brain

593
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 1: and they think about it. But yeah, it is. It

594
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,839
Speaker 1: is the thing, and I worry that it's the same

595
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 1: thing that happened with the red Pill thing, which I'm

596
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 1: sure we're going to we'll get into where the whole

597
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 1: thing is, like, this is what the movie is about,

598
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 1: and like, no movie this good is about one thing.

599
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: So yes, trans allegory, but don't I wouldn't just boil

600
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 1: it down to that except on Twitter if I want

601
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 1: to get retweets. I mean, if you need some engagement,

602
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:43,360
Speaker 1: it's always going to be there in your back pocket,

603
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:47,359
Speaker 1: and exactly I can. I'll take that for view. Thank

604
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 1: thank you for for for kind of unpacking that I

605
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 1: think that it is, like, um, it's been interesting to

606
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 1: watch the I mean even in truly the five years

607
00:35:55,960 --> 00:36:00,360
Speaker 1: that I was not watching this movie, the conversation around

608
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 1: this movie has changed so significantly, and a lot of

609
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 1: it is because of your work, And I think it

610
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 1: is like fascinating how many different ways there are to

611
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 1: look at this movie and how the leftist read really

612
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 1: stuck out to meet this time as well, and which

613
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 1: makes it I think even more baffling and like awful

614
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:24,959
Speaker 1: that the red Pill discussion went the way it did

615
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 1: because it's like, well, he's clearly being radicalized in a

616
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 1: very particular direction. Did you watch the movie? Yeah, I

617
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 1: remember when that piece published the Matrix piece on the

618
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: twentieth anniversary of the movie, so b March nineteen. I

619
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,359
Speaker 1: just know when the Matrix came out. That's a thing

620
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,400
Speaker 1: that I just know. Um, there were so many people

621
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 1: who tweeted that piece out, who like very prominent names

622
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 1: within journalism, within the media, etcetera, who were just like,

623
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 1: I thought this movie was a conservative screen because it

624
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 1: had been like taken over by the red Pill people,

625
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 1: and you know, they'd seen the Matrix, but they hadn't

626
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 1: seen it in twenty years or whatever, so it had

627
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 1: like calcified in their mind based on who was obsessed

628
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,319
Speaker 1: with it. So I do like the fact that there

629
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 1: is this trans reading of it now because it has

630
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 1: liberated the movie from this sort of fate it was

631
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 1: going to meet. That would be similar to something like

632
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: fight Club, where it is now just totally defined by

633
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: its bad fans, even though you know it is not

634
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 1: necessarily the movie they're selling it as right, And I

635
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 1: think I think it's been really cool to Um, I

636
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 1: don't know, I'm curious of in your thoughts and this

637
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 1: as well, Emily, how Lana and Lily Wachowski have kind

638
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:39,439
Speaker 1: of engaged with the trans reading of the movie where

639
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 1: it feels like I like their I like their style

640
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 1: of like responding to stuff like this a lot, because

641
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: it seems like they never bring up new reads of

642
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 1: the movie, but it's brought to them and they're like,

643
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 1: oh yeah, yeah, that's like that is like, UM, I

644
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:56,799
Speaker 1: don't know. I think that that the way that they

645
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 1: engage with fans of the Matrix is so smart because

646
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,319
Speaker 1: it's not like they're resisting doing so at all, but

647
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 1: they're all also not like, I don't know, going the

648
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 1: other way that directors do sometimes where they're over engaging

649
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 1: and creating new cannon and I don't know, I just

650
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:16,439
Speaker 1: they're so fucking cool. It's wild. Lily, Lily Witchusky works

651
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 1: on this really great showtime show called Work in Progress, Um,

652
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 1: and I got a chance to talk to her. I

653
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 1: got a chance to talk to her a couple of

654
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 1: years ago for that show, and I was like, how

655
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 1: do I not just make this interview about the Matrix?

656
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 1: Because she had the other people that work on that

657
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:33,839
Speaker 1: show with her there, so I had to also ask

658
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 1: them questions, and I finally came up with, how is this,

659
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,359
Speaker 1: you know, this tiny little TV show that you make

660
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 1: basically independently, how is that any continuum with the Matrix?

661
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 1: And her answer was basically just like, I'm always trying

662
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 1: to talk about the same things and it doesn't matter

663
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 1: the size of the story. And I was like, thank you,

664
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 1: Lily Witchowski, that's a great answer to that question, so amazing. Yeah,

665
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 1: I just to kind of go back to the idea

666
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 1: that a piece of media like this, especially because the

667
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:07,839
Speaker 1: director's intent was not specifically at the time to make

668
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 1: this trans allegory. Because they're both trans women, it stands

669
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: to reason that they might have written certain just little

670
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 1: details or themes or something like that into the story

671
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 1: kind of unconsciously, almost or subconsciously, but as you stated,

672
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 1: because it wasn't like deliberately created as this specific allegory

673
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 1: from a very intentional place. Because there are some movies

674
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:37,399
Speaker 1: that are like, whatever, what's his fate? Darren Aronofsky being like, yeah,

675
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 1: mother exclamation point is that you've got like charts behind them.

676
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 1: He's like, the allegory is very precise. You're like yeah,

677
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 1: and then you watch the movie and you're like, what

678
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:48,439
Speaker 1: do you even what are you trying to say here?

679
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 1: But like, the thing with a lot of metaphor and

680
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 1: allegory found in art and in narratives is that it

681
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 1: wasn't necessarily intentional, um, which does mean that it is

682
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 1: open to interpretation. And I think that's just like a

683
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 1: really cool thing about this movie and about the franchise,

684
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 1: and not only that the movie explores all these like

685
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 1: philosophical things. I remember I took a class as a

686
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 1: freshman in college and wrote a paper about the matrix.

687
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 1: So I'm sure you can imagine how brilliant of a

688
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 1: piece of writing that was. But it was a class

689
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 1: called like Philosophy, Art and Film, and you had to

690
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 1: like watch a movie and then take like a philosopher's

691
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 1: philosophy and then apply it to the movie. So I

692
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 1: don't even know what philosophy I was trying to like

693
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 1: attach to the matrix, but I remember I was I

694
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:46,839
Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, I'm so freaking deep right now,

695
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,359
Speaker 1: I'm so about this movie is about choice and it's

696
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 1: about duality, and it's about fate or what if there's

697
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,879
Speaker 1: not fate, and like just like all this stuff, and

698
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,319
Speaker 1: I don't know, I feel like this movie is just

699
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 1: so rich in that way that it is open to

700
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 1: a lot of interpretations and a lot of analysis from

701
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:10,399
Speaker 1: many different perspectives. So our eighteen year old self sort

702
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 1: of totally vibe that's what you're saying. Just just talks

703
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: talks the matrix and be like, you know what's kind

704
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 1: of about every philosophy, right, That's like part of what

705
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 1: makes this movie so cool and why I feel like

706
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 1: there there are so many different lenses to view with

707
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 1: its like there is a trans allegory in here. There

708
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:33,839
Speaker 1: is a like leftist radicalization in there, and it's because

709
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 1: it's so unique to who these filmmakers are. So it's like,

710
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 1: of course all this stuff is showing up. And I like,

711
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,839
Speaker 1: I mean, there are two of the most distinct filmmakers

712
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 1: in the entire world, like and and I really like,

713
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,840
Speaker 1: I mean just truly, as a new convert to the

714
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 1: matrix fandom, I was so blown away and impressed with

715
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 1: how many I mean you said now Aronofsky is stuck

716
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 1: in my mind because this is what I struggle with

717
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 1: with him in certain cases, as like, you know, the

718
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 1: Waaskis are able to take so much complicated stuff and

719
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:12,760
Speaker 1: make it fun and engaging to watch and it's moving

720
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 1: the story, where like other filmmakers are like really getting

721
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:17,439
Speaker 1: bogged down and trying to let you know that they've

722
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:21,359
Speaker 1: read a book and you're like it's fine, Like I

723
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,360
Speaker 1: believe you, but I'm so bored and I don't know.

724
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:29,720
Speaker 1: They're just they're so fucking smart. Um, you know, I think, um,

725
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:33,720
Speaker 1: this is the famously a movie, Um that it blends

726
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of influences. You know, it blends in anime,

727
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 1: at blends in also known as kung fu movies, It

728
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 1: blends in like like there's a lot of James Cameron

729
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 1: in this movie, which I don't know that I every

730
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 1: time I rewatched him, Like this is like this is

731
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 1: very on a line with like Aliens or True Lies

732
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 1: or some of those movies. And I think that people

733
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 1: miss how many like intellectual influences are also in there,

734
00:42:58,040 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 1: and like so like the trance stuff is in there,

735
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 1: the pilosophy stuff is in there, but also just like

736
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 1: they clearly had read a lot of you know, Gnome

737
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:08,759
Speaker 1: Chompski and stuff that just gets dropped in there. But

738
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 1: it's all in the package of this huge, big budget

739
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:14,799
Speaker 1: action movie that totally works as an action movie. You

740
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 1: can detach from all of that and still enjoy this.

741
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,360
Speaker 1: It's and I think that's why it's so perfect is

742
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 1: because it works on like sixteen levels at once. I

743
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 1: read on our favorite scholarly journal Wikipedia that the Lilian

744
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:35,320
Speaker 1: Lana Wichowski required the cast to be able to explain

745
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 1: what the Matrix is and they made them read and

746
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 1: I'm not going to pronounce this correctly, but simulacra and

747
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 1: simulation from French philosopher Jean bald God Jean or something.

748
00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 1: I do not speak French, but um yeah, the Witch

749
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 1: House kis were like, Kianu Reeves, We're going to require

750
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 1: that you understand a lot of heavy philosophy to be

751
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 1: able to be in this movie. I love that. And now,

752
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 1: just like knowing what sort of person Kianu rees is,

753
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 1: at least in the public facing way, you're just like,

754
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 1: he was so down for that. I don't know. There

755
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 1: we talked about this in the Matrix episode that no

756
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 1: longer exists, but I used to work at a bookstore

757
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 1: as my first I worked at book Soup in l

758
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 1: A and that was my first job when I moved here.

759
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 1: And Kianu Reeves would come every Wednesday night on his

760
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: motorcycle and get a new book and Sudoku puzzles and

761
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:41,920
Speaker 1: he's a he's a bookhead. I think it's so cool

762
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 1: that that they gave him homework. I also just like,

763
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 1: as someone who does not have the confidence to give

764
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:49,760
Speaker 1: someone homework, I love that the witch House skis were like, Yeah,

765
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 1: you're gonna need to get a library card and really

766
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 1: put in some hours because the test is on Monday.

767
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 1: Before I would agree to come on the show, I

768
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 1: required you both to read Jock Alldy yards uh similar

769
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 1: cromin Simulation. So I'd like to leave like a ten

770
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,959
Speaker 1: minute discussion of that right now. And what your thoughts were? Yes, yeah,

771
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 1: so I thought it was really good. I liked it.

772
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 1: What's your favorite plot twist? I thought it was a

773
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:22,279
Speaker 1: derivative if you're asking me. I liked when Simulacra and

774
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:24,360
Speaker 1: Simulation met for the first time. I thought it was

775
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:27,760
Speaker 1: so I love when they kiss at the end. So romantic,

776
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:31,879
Speaker 1: I know. And you're like, Simulation loved Simulacra so much

777
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 1: the whole time, and Simulacra had no idea, but then

778
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:37,799
Speaker 1: when they heard it, they were It was just I

779
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 1: thought it was beautiful. Another iconic lesbian romance exactly. I

780
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 1: did think it was a little weird when it was

781
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:47,439
Speaker 1: revealed that they were the same person, but that's also

782
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 1: iconic lesbian cinema. So yeah, I I you know, I

783
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 1: liked the duality. I liked the tone, I liked the ideas,

784
00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 1: and I loved reading the index. Also, we're all we're

785
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,399
Speaker 1: all going to have somebody with high as skywriter above

786
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 1: our houses to say reads Simulation, you assholes reads I

787
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 1: dare you? Oh my gosh, I yeah, I just god,

788
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 1: I love I mean, there is a part of that

789
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 1: anecdote that makes me feel like I'm being like I

790
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 1: was like, oh yeah, this is this is kind of

791
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 1: just a simulation of being in the d s A

792
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 1: where everyone's like, have you read this book, and you're like,

793
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:32,280
Speaker 1: I haven't. I just want everyone to have health insurance.

794
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. The thing that this is this is A

795
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:40,839
Speaker 1: tweeted about this several times. The thing that like like

796
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 1: most makes me stand out at like when I hang

797
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 1: out with with other leftists, is like, I have super

798
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:50,440
Speaker 1: normy pop culture days. I'm yeah, well you know, I like,

799
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:54,319
Speaker 1: you know, these extremely mainstream HBO shows and they're like,

800
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:58,240
Speaker 1: what about this? And I don't know. That's fine too.

801
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 1: You want to talk about six USh and everybody, right right,

802
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 1: I know, it's just I, um the leftist. I mean,

803
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:08,239
Speaker 1: I love him to death. And make room for us

804
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 1: basic gals because we have something to bring to the

805
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 1: table too. Yeah, you want to listen to Taylor Swift together.

806
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 1: You want to recruit people into the movement, you gotta

807
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 1: be able to talk about what happened on Succession last week. Sorry, um,

808
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 1: let's take another quick break and then we will come

809
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 1: back for more discussion, and we're back. One last comment

810
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 1: on the homework section. I just like that that section

811
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 1: ends with Carrie and Moss commented that she had difficulty

812
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:50,719
Speaker 1: with this process. Kotu was like, yes, more books, and

813
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 1: She's like, I did not sign up for this. I

814
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 1: thought I was going to be wearing a jacket and fighting.

815
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:59,320
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know how much of her fighting

816
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 1: in the movie is like stunt people, but it seems

817
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 1: like a lot of the actors were like trained in

818
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 1: martial arts and doing a lot of their own stunts

819
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 1: and fight choreography, which is very impressed by. So she

820
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:16,680
Speaker 1: was probably just busy learning like martial arts, and she

821
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 1: didn't have time to read a book, much like us.

822
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:24,239
Speaker 1: I remember Laurence Fishburne was on Hannibal and Um I

823
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:26,799
Speaker 1: talked to Brian Fuller a lot around that show, and

824
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:29,879
Speaker 1: he was like, sometime between season one and season two,

825
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:32,360
Speaker 1: Lawrence fishburn came to him and was like, listen, Briant,

826
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 1: I have all this kung fu training from the Matrix.

827
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 1: Can I get in a fight? And like, there's an

828
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 1: amazing fight in season two that was inspired entirely by

829
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:42,279
Speaker 1: him being like, Brian Fuller, I know how to fight,

830
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:44,319
Speaker 1: Please let me fight. So, yeah, they did a lot

831
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 1: of their own stuff. Yeah, that's so cool. I guess

832
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 1: if I knew how to do kung fu, I would

833
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 1: just try to work it into whatever I did for

834
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:55,800
Speaker 1: the rest of my life. Also, that's so cool. Really

835
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 1: hard to do in an audio medium, is the thing.

836
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 1: But yeah, I would definitely try and work. At end

837
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 1: of season three of Our yeah, I mean just just

838
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 1: again leak leak the zoom call, you know, our hair

839
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:13,400
Speaker 1: looks great. We have kung fu skills to show off.

840
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 1: What are we doing? I wanted to talk about the

841
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:23,479
Speaker 1: film itself, the narrative, the characters, because I think we've

842
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 1: got an interesting cast of characters here, and I think

843
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:29,920
Speaker 1: one of the reasons the movie holds up as well

844
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 1: as it does. I think one of the reasons that

845
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:34,320
Speaker 1: I was so attached to it as a young person

846
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:39,840
Speaker 1: is like the badassary of Trinity. And this was like

847
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 1: the bulk of our conversation on the again first version

848
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 1: of this episode that no longer exists. But um, the

849
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 1: tapes we should we should drop. We still have the

850
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:53,840
Speaker 1: audio file in our Google drive. We should drop a

851
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 1: little because that was fun for our listeners to go

852
00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:58,719
Speaker 1: back and be like, wow, Jamie didn't make a definitive

853
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:03,360
Speaker 1: statement the whole I am interesting. So yeah, maybe on

854
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:06,480
Speaker 1: our Patreon will like leak a couple of minutes or something.

855
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:14,880
Speaker 1: Shame anyways, But um, I feel almost like simple being like, yeah,

856
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:18,319
Speaker 1: Trinity is so cool and badass, and like watching her

857
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 1: fight competently and like know how to hack, and like, no,

858
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 1: she's just she's equipped with with a lot of skills.

859
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:31,319
Speaker 1: But I never felt that she fell into like the

860
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:34,799
Speaker 1: Merry Sue type. I like it's implied that she's had

861
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 1: extensive training to Like, the more you get to know

862
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 1: her character, it's like, you know, how why why she

863
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:43,400
Speaker 1: can do what she does? Write different characters, and it's

864
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:50,200
Speaker 1: often like the villains are constantly underestimating her. Also where

865
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:53,719
Speaker 1: there's like the movie opens on that sequence where there's

866
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 1: like a cop who's like, oh, we can handle one

867
00:50:56,360 --> 00:51:00,760
Speaker 1: little girl, and then Agent Smith, who know who Trinity

868
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:06,759
Speaker 1: is and like understands the extent of her capabilities, is like, no, Lieutenant,

869
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 1: your men are already dead. And that was an amazing

870
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 1: Hugo Weaving impression. Thank you so much. That was good.

871
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:18,359
Speaker 1: That was good. How did those gorgeous lips just like,

872
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:22,719
Speaker 1: just like Mr Hugo does Hugo Leaving weavings. Lips are

873
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:25,360
Speaker 1: so distracting in this movie, And I like in a

874
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 1: good way, but I was just like, I just wasn't

875
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 1: expecting those beautiful lips out that whole time. Wow, there's

876
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:35,040
Speaker 1: a part at the very end it's like the final

877
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:39,480
Speaker 1: battle between him and Neo, and again he's constantly calling

878
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:43,600
Speaker 1: Neo Mr Anderson throughout the whole movie, and his voice

879
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:46,160
Speaker 1: gets really gravelly at one point, and he's just like

880
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:55,080
Speaker 1: Mr Randerson, It's incredible, and then like Neo Neo kind

881
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 1: of like flexes and like you see dust come off

882
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 1: of his shirt and then he just like starts to

883
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:04,880
Speaker 1: be Agent Smith's ass uh, it's so good anyway. My

884
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 1: point is people people are often underestimating trinity, which is

885
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 1: something that many women can identify with. Um, even Neo,

886
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 1: like you mentioned Emily Um, there's that scene where he's like, oh,

887
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 1: you're the Trinity who cracked the I R S D

888
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:29,239
Speaker 1: base and she's like, yes, but that was a long

889
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 1: time ago. I'm humble. And then he's like, oh, I

890
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 1: just thought you were a guy, and she's like most

891
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:38,560
Speaker 1: guys do. Um. I don't know, just like those little

892
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 1: nuggets in there, they're kind of like not like throwaway

893
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:45,960
Speaker 1: moments really, but just like little details that I found

894
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 1: made that character just like especially relatable and and I

895
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 1: like that it's like they're not I don't know. There

896
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 1: are certain movies where it's like those moments come off

897
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:56,279
Speaker 1: as extremely over the top, and like I feel like

898
00:52:56,320 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 1: we've talked about a lot of action movies where there's

899
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:02,719
Speaker 1: like the like you're a googoogo girl, like in the

900
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:05,759
Speaker 1: middle of a scene. But it's just like, even though

901
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:09,280
Speaker 1: that moment happens, it's just a natural part of the scene,

902
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:13,120
Speaker 1: and it's not like the reaction from Neo isn't like

903
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:16,280
Speaker 1: I found out that like a woman is an incredible

904
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:18,600
Speaker 1: hacker and I'm upset about it. He's just like, Oh,

905
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:20,880
Speaker 1: I guess my assumption was wrong. And then the scene

906
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:23,520
Speaker 1: continues and it's like, Oh, I didn't realize that. What

907
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:25,799
Speaker 1: a relief that is to watch someone react like that.

908
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:29,600
Speaker 1: The sympathy of that moment in that scene is with Trinity,

909
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:32,000
Speaker 1: and that's why it works because you're like, you're like, oh,

910
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 1: she's been underestimated. That fucking sucks because I already know

911
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:37,800
Speaker 1: she can kick people in the face, you know or whatever.

912
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 1: You mentioning how how much hacking is in this movie

913
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 1: reminds me. This is other influence in the film that's

914
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 1: totally been forgotten, which is mid nineties movies about the

915
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:50,279
Speaker 1: Internet that trying to like personify like this is just

916
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 1: Sonder blocks the Net, but like a little bit better,

917
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 1: you know, Yeah, the net. We should cover the net.

918
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:00,839
Speaker 1: We should cover the net. We've covered hack. I'll come

919
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 1: on to talk about the net anytime, please come back

920
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:07,399
Speaker 1: into the net. Oh my god. Um. There's another small

921
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 1: moment that's like again very fleeting, but just like relatable

922
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:15,120
Speaker 1: and and I really appreciated it where Neo has taken

923
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:18,319
Speaker 1: the red pill. They're kind of like preparing him to

924
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:22,320
Speaker 1: be unplugged from the matrix and like Trinity is hooking

925
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:25,400
Speaker 1: him up to a bunch of like apparatus and Neo

926
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:28,279
Speaker 1: is just like, you did all this to Trinity and

927
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:30,840
Speaker 1: she was just like mm hmmm. So like it was

928
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:34,200
Speaker 1: just like a nice moment where he like recognizes that

929
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:36,400
Speaker 1: she probably put in all of this effort and like

930
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:38,400
Speaker 1: did all this work and like set up this whole thing,

931
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 1: especially now that he knows that she's the one who,

932
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:45,600
Speaker 1: like how's all these amazing like hacking and computer skills.

933
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:48,359
Speaker 1: And then she's just like uh huh, yeah I did that,

934
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:51,680
Speaker 1: like very matter of fact ye, And he's just like cool.

935
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:54,280
Speaker 1: And because like so many movies, like you said, Jamie,

936
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:56,719
Speaker 1: there would be if we saw a woman like doing

937
00:54:56,760 --> 00:55:00,120
Speaker 1: something impressive, or we saw like you know, kicking or

938
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:06,439
Speaker 1: hacking or something, the guys would be like what boner right, right, yeah,

939
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 1: and then they'd like instantly fall in love with her,

940
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:10,799
Speaker 1: and they were like jaws would drop and they just

941
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:13,480
Speaker 1: like wouldn't know how to turn into that corny cartoon

942
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 1: wolf right, and they just wouldn't know how to comprehend that,

943
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:21,279
Speaker 1: like a woman is capable of something, especially something that

944
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:24,960
Speaker 1: they assume would be something that only a man could do.

945
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:28,160
Speaker 1: So yeah, just these like little moments that we like

946
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 1: learn things about her character, we learn about her abilities,

947
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:34,920
Speaker 1: and it's just presented a very matter of factly and

948
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:39,839
Speaker 1: in a way that like Neo immediately accepts and there

949
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 1: is I think, um, some of those moments where people

950
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:46,480
Speaker 1: are like, whoa Trinity, you can do things? Um, they

951
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:49,359
Speaker 1: feel so much like studio notes. They feel so much

952
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:53,160
Speaker 1: like somebody at the exact level was like, well, if

953
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:55,839
Speaker 1: she's with all these computers, someone has to note that

954
00:55:56,080 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 1: she did that, and that's unusual because she's a girl,

955
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:00,880
Speaker 1: And so they put that in the script and like

956
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:03,480
Speaker 1: most directors would make a big moment of that. But

957
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:06,080
Speaker 1: like the Witch, how skis, even if they were not

958
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:09,000
Speaker 1: aware of their transness at the time, their sympathies are

959
00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:13,359
Speaker 1: always with Trinity because they are in fact women, uh,

960
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:16,879
Speaker 1: And like that makes those moments play because you're not

961
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:19,600
Speaker 1: like sitting there and being like, oh my god, this

962
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:22,960
Speaker 1: is so condescending because it's it is like a thing

963
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:25,480
Speaker 1: that would have been condescending in any other movie with

964
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:28,360
Speaker 1: the exact same dialogue. It's just like how they wait

965
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:30,759
Speaker 1: that scene. I was. I was. I was kind of

966
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:33,120
Speaker 1: challenged by a lot of moments in the movie for

967
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:36,360
Speaker 1: that exact reason, where it's like on paper, if you

968
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:39,319
Speaker 1: hear like a similar thing with with Joey Pants, when

969
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:41,840
Speaker 1: you find out that Joey Pants has been lusting after

970
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:45,880
Speaker 1: Trinity was. At first, it being my first time encountering

971
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:47,960
Speaker 1: this plot point, I was like, Oh cool, we're adding

972
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:51,520
Speaker 1: in a spiteful ex boyfriend character to the one woman

973
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:53,399
Speaker 1: we're going to get to know during this movie, Like

974
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:57,360
Speaker 1: where is this gonna go? But the way I don't know.

975
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:00,200
Speaker 1: I generally felt like the way that that storyline play out.

976
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:03,640
Speaker 1: I just feel like almost any other director would have

977
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:08,000
Speaker 1: implied that Trinity had somehow brought this upon herself, that

978
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:11,160
Speaker 1: she could have handled rejecting Joey Pants in a different

979
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:13,719
Speaker 1: way that would have prevented this outcome. But this movie

980
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 1: doesn't go for that at all. It presents the spiteful

981
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 1: Joey Pants ex boyfriend, of which there are unfortunately many

982
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:26,080
Speaker 1: in the world, and does not blame the woman who

983
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:31,080
Speaker 1: is being raged at for what is happening, which again

984
00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 1: is just like I feel like that just wasn't happening

985
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:35,960
Speaker 1: a lot in movies at that time, and I was

986
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 1: I ended up being kind of pleasantly surprised by I mean,

987
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:44,680
Speaker 1: and again, it's like, that's scraps, but it it. I

988
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:47,320
Speaker 1: was surprised that was how that story kind of played out.

989
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:51,560
Speaker 1: What if every shitty, spiteful ex boyfriend turned into a

990
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 1: clone of Joe Pantoliano, like Agent Smith overtaking someone in

991
00:57:56,160 --> 00:58:00,439
Speaker 1: the matrix. Now that's a movie, I hope. I hope

992
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:06,480
Speaker 1: that's Resurrections that they just had start showing it. I

993
00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:08,360
Speaker 1: did want to talk a little bit about the romantic

994
00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 1: subplot between Trinity and Neo, because that's the one aspect

995
00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:18,480
Speaker 1: of this movie where I get a little I don't know,

996
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:23,000
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, entering it in, I feel like it

997
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:25,000
Speaker 1: stood out to me a little bit more because I

998
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:28,479
Speaker 1: didn't have any nostalgia for the movie, and also because

999
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:30,880
Speaker 1: we recently covered speed in this movie, which ends with

1000
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 1: Kanu getting a little a little slurp at the end

1001
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:39,560
Speaker 1: a plot resolving slurp if you will. Yeah, my main gripes,

1002
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:44,440
Speaker 1: I don't even hate that it's there. You know, movies

1003
00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:50,320
Speaker 1: be movies, and movies have hetero romantic subplots in them often,

1004
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:57,920
Speaker 1: but I don't there there are heterosexual I know. Is

1005
00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:03,280
Speaker 1: that's still a thing. God, I'm actually writing standout material

1006
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:07,080
Speaker 1: about this as we speak, But um my gripes with

1007
00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:11,440
Speaker 1: it are that Neo being brought back to life by

1008
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:15,959
Speaker 1: like Trinity's love and kiss to me that almost read

1009
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:20,560
Speaker 1: is like because it's a it's a surprise kiss of

1010
00:59:20,760 --> 00:59:26,440
Speaker 1: Trinity kissing Neo while he's unconscious, like the prince in

1011
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:31,120
Speaker 1: snow White bringing back to life, like that whole fairytale thing.

1012
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:34,640
Speaker 1: It's like why you're like, don't don't kiss an unconscious

1013
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:38,640
Speaker 1: person they cannot consent and stop showing that in movies. Also,

1014
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:42,880
Speaker 1: um my other question I'm interested to hear people's thoughts

1015
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:47,800
Speaker 1: about this, is so the oracle prophesied that or does

1016
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:54,600
Speaker 1: that a word prophecied? Made a prophecy, she did a prophecy.

1017
00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:58,840
Speaker 1: She did she did a prophecy that Trinity would fall

1018
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:01,479
Speaker 1: in love and that that man would be the one.

1019
01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 1: And then that ends up being true. My question is,

1020
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:07,960
Speaker 1: does it feel like that kind of removes agency from

1021
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:13,200
Speaker 1: Trinity or is that not how prophecies work? No, I do,

1022
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:16,200
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know. I My feeling on that

1023
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:21,160
Speaker 1: was like, if we're I, Trinity receiving my prophecy, of

1024
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:24,200
Speaker 1: which you seem to only get one, I would be

1025
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:27,760
Speaker 1: sort of let down that the prophecy seemed to have

1026
01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:30,160
Speaker 1: actually not that much to do with me, and more

1027
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:34,240
Speaker 1: like a second prophecy for a different person. Like I

1028
01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:36,880
Speaker 1: do think that there's like that trope that you see

1029
01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:41,280
Speaker 1: a million times of like a woman's love will you know,

1030
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 1: it's like Helen of troy Ship. You know, a woman's

1031
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:47,120
Speaker 1: love will resolve the plot or the war, whatever it is,

1032
01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 1: that's definitely present here. I don't know, I mean in

1033
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:54,439
Speaker 1: terms of agency, I guess I hadn't really considered that,

1034
01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:56,440
Speaker 1: But I think that that's where of a testament to Like,

1035
01:00:57,240 --> 01:00:59,600
Speaker 1: it feels so clear in the plot that Trinity and

1036
01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:02,840
Speaker 1: and EEO should be together that if I felt like

1037
01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:06,160
Speaker 1: there wasn't chemistry between those characters, um and that I

1038
01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:09,720
Speaker 1: wanted them to kiss so badly, maybe maybe that would

1039
01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:12,560
Speaker 1: have told me. I don't know that it does then

1040
01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 1: I mean when you think about the prophecy that Morpheus received,

1041
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:20,760
Speaker 1: which was you're going to find the one. Neo's prophecy

1042
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:25,080
Speaker 1: is you are the one as long as you believe

1043
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:27,160
Speaker 1: that you're the one, and once you believe that you're

1044
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:29,280
Speaker 1: the one, then you're the one. Those are prophecies that

1045
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:33,320
Speaker 1: have to do with them, right. And then Trinity's prophecy

1046
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:35,080
Speaker 1: is You're going to fall in love with a man,

1047
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:41,320
Speaker 1: which feels it feels like a very gendered choice. But again,

1048
01:01:41,360 --> 01:01:43,120
Speaker 1: I don't even hate that the love stories there, but

1049
01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:45,760
Speaker 1: it does, know, I mean, I like the love story.

1050
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:49,440
Speaker 1: I do think that the two sequels really do a

1051
01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:52,560
Speaker 1: lot to further sell it. And I'm always like reading

1052
01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:55,640
Speaker 1: who those two characters become back onto the first movie,

1053
01:01:55,720 --> 01:01:59,200
Speaker 1: but I remember I was very much like, yeah, I

1054
01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:01,400
Speaker 1: don't know this love story. I I think they have

1055
01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:04,560
Speaker 1: good chemistry, but I'm not sure it was needed. But

1056
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:08,439
Speaker 1: like Matrix Reloaded especially has some great stuff for those

1057
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:11,600
Speaker 1: two characters to sort of bounce off of each other.

1058
01:02:11,640 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 1: But yeah, like if it wasn't for their chemistry, I

1059
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:20,200
Speaker 1: don't think it would work. Fortunately they have amazing chemistry. Yeah, yeah,

1060
01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:21,800
Speaker 1: I do. I do feel like there are there are

1061
01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:24,640
Speaker 1: some kind of and Emily, once you brought up studio notes,

1062
01:02:24,680 --> 01:02:26,760
Speaker 1: now I can't stop thinking of, like, well, at what

1063
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:29,000
Speaker 1: you know? I now I want to blame everything I

1064
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:32,160
Speaker 1: didn't love about the movie on studio notes, but who knows.

1065
01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:35,200
Speaker 1: I do feel like it would have been just as

1066
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:39,080
Speaker 1: easy and it wouldn't have impacted the story for them

1067
01:02:39,120 --> 01:02:41,919
Speaker 1: to not get together in that way and be like

1068
01:02:42,120 --> 01:02:44,919
Speaker 1: a team. And I think that that would have been

1069
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:47,600
Speaker 1: just as strong a choice and would have worked completely fine,

1070
01:02:48,000 --> 01:02:50,200
Speaker 1: and the love story didn't have to be there. I

1071
01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:52,800
Speaker 1: didn't hate that it was there, but I felt like, yeah,

1072
01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:55,600
Speaker 1: my my main thing was like we especially because the

1073
01:02:55,640 --> 01:02:58,920
Speaker 1: movie starts with just a long introduction to how fucking

1074
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:02,960
Speaker 1: cool and capable and brilliant Trinity is for her to

1075
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:06,400
Speaker 1: get uh message like that from the oracle and then

1076
01:03:06,520 --> 01:03:09,440
Speaker 1: just have it bear out and not have Trinity, I

1077
01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:11,240
Speaker 1: mean she it's I thought it was interesting because in

1078
01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:13,920
Speaker 1: the movie she seems kind of annoyed that that is

1079
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:16,840
Speaker 1: what she was told, or like very conflicted of like

1080
01:03:17,240 --> 01:03:20,560
Speaker 1: that's what I have to learn, like because it just

1081
01:03:21,160 --> 01:03:23,560
Speaker 1: we know, like we've seen how much she can do.

1082
01:03:23,720 --> 01:03:27,000
Speaker 1: It doesn't quite make sense that her fate would be

1083
01:03:27,080 --> 01:03:30,640
Speaker 1: so limited in the way that it's presented. There's a

1084
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:34,800
Speaker 1: great piece on the sadly defunct website that dissolved by

1085
01:03:35,040 --> 01:03:37,919
Speaker 1: um Tasha Robinson about this very thing about how many

1086
01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:41,920
Speaker 1: movies have a basically a trinity character who's badass and

1087
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:44,480
Speaker 1: capable and can do anything, and then her story ends

1088
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:46,640
Speaker 1: up being but also she falls in love with the guy,

1089
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:50,440
Speaker 1: and the Matrix actually does a pretty good job with

1090
01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:53,200
Speaker 1: that idea, and it's sort of the innovator of that trope,

1091
01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:55,960
Speaker 1: which is I think why in some ways it gets

1092
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:57,600
Speaker 1: away with it. But then by the time she wrote

1093
01:03:57,640 --> 01:04:02,000
Speaker 1: it in, it's just like everywhere and it's not doing anything.

1094
01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:06,040
Speaker 1: It's just like sitting there taking up space and having

1095
01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:11,080
Speaker 1: the illusion of strong women characters while never actually having

1096
01:04:11,160 --> 01:04:13,880
Speaker 1: to create a strong women character. They're creating the trappings

1097
01:04:13,880 --> 01:04:17,280
Speaker 1: of one without actually having to make a full character.

1098
01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:19,920
Speaker 1: By the way, do you think people go to the

1099
01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:23,040
Speaker 1: oracle and get just like really boring prophecies? Do you

1100
01:04:23,040 --> 01:04:26,760
Speaker 1: think the oracles ever just like Jamie, you've seen the

1101
01:04:26,800 --> 01:04:29,560
Speaker 1: most beautiful duck you'll ever see already, Like, do you

1102
01:04:29,560 --> 01:04:31,800
Speaker 1: think that ever just comes up? And then I would

1103
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:35,240
Speaker 1: just walk into traffic afterwards, I'd be like, well, thanks

1104
01:04:35,240 --> 01:04:40,560
Speaker 1: a lot, I hope so I well, we'll get to

1105
01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:44,560
Speaker 1: the oracle, whole, whole whole discussion to be had there.

1106
01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:48,240
Speaker 1: I God, that's my that's my worst fear is to

1107
01:04:48,880 --> 01:04:52,960
Speaker 1: encounter someone who's just like, yeah, your best days are

1108
01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:58,840
Speaker 1: very much behind you, so just write it out. But yeah,

1109
01:04:58,920 --> 01:05:01,840
Speaker 1: I mean, Jamie you pointed out the movie opens with this,

1110
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:05,720
Speaker 1: like the whole sequence showcasing Trinity and her skills. Like

1111
01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:10,720
Speaker 1: for this action movie to open on an action set piece,

1112
01:05:11,400 --> 01:05:13,840
Speaker 1: which is not uncommon for an action movie, but for

1113
01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:17,720
Speaker 1: that action set piece to center around a woman and

1114
01:05:17,760 --> 01:05:19,919
Speaker 1: a woman who's not even the protagonist, because you would

1115
01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:22,920
Speaker 1: expect that from something like Laura Croft tomb Raider or

1116
01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:26,080
Speaker 1: something like that. But we get this whole set piece

1117
01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:29,200
Speaker 1: where we see a woman fighting and kicking ass, and

1118
01:05:29,280 --> 01:05:32,520
Speaker 1: she doesn't even end up being the protagonist of the narrative.

1119
01:05:32,560 --> 01:05:35,160
Speaker 1: I think is like, I don't know where else I've

1120
01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:39,120
Speaker 1: ever seen that. I don't think really anywhere. Yeah, I

1121
01:05:39,160 --> 01:05:43,360
Speaker 1: think just to kind of jump back to how yeah,

1122
01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:46,919
Speaker 1: before this, and especially like action movies and action franchises,

1123
01:05:47,720 --> 01:05:51,400
Speaker 1: the one woman character who we get to know pretty well,

1124
01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:56,120
Speaker 1: would be framed only as the romantic interest who maybe

1125
01:05:56,200 --> 01:05:59,680
Speaker 1: gets like dragged along for the ride, but isn't participating

1126
01:05:59,720 --> 01:06:03,600
Speaker 1: in an any of the action or the plot herself,

1127
01:06:03,720 --> 01:06:06,120
Speaker 1: and it's just kind of like present for the man

1128
01:06:06,200 --> 01:06:09,440
Speaker 1: to eventually kiss at the end. Whereas this movie, and

1129
01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:12,000
Speaker 1: I'm sure you know there are other examples before this,

1130
01:06:12,120 --> 01:06:14,080
Speaker 1: but like I feel like this is one of the

1131
01:06:14,080 --> 01:06:17,520
Speaker 1: ones that like kind of popularized or like actually gave

1132
01:06:18,160 --> 01:06:23,520
Speaker 1: the woman more agency, more to do, more skills, and

1133
01:06:23,840 --> 01:06:26,320
Speaker 1: actually allowed her to participate in the plot in more

1134
01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:30,800
Speaker 1: meaningful ways, but still couldn't quite stick the landing on

1135
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:35,520
Speaker 1: given her the full story. Right, there's there's really before

1136
01:06:35,600 --> 01:06:38,240
Speaker 1: this movie. There is. If you're a woman in a movie,

1137
01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:42,960
Speaker 1: you are just an incredible badass. Woman in an action movie,

1138
01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:46,400
Speaker 1: you're just an incredible badass. Usually there's not a man around,

1139
01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:48,280
Speaker 1: like the kind of the one exception I'm thinking of

1140
01:06:48,360 --> 01:06:51,760
Speaker 1: right now is um Linda Hamilton's and Terminator to but

1141
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:54,280
Speaker 1: even like in the first Terminator, she falls in love

1142
01:06:54,320 --> 01:06:56,760
Speaker 1: with this guy and has sex with him, you know whatever,

1143
01:06:57,440 --> 01:07:00,880
Speaker 1: or you are the love interest, you know um, So

1144
01:07:00,920 --> 01:07:02,959
Speaker 1: this is the first movie that tries to blend those

1145
01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:05,240
Speaker 1: two but it is very much like at the end

1146
01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:07,520
Speaker 1: they have to pick one of those two corridors and

1147
01:07:07,520 --> 01:07:11,480
Speaker 1: they pick the wrong one. To my mind, it's messy

1148
01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:15,040
Speaker 1: and it's and it's like we're it's not even like

1149
01:07:15,040 --> 01:07:20,160
Speaker 1: we're suggesting that women who can execute perfect fight choreography

1150
01:07:20,160 --> 01:07:23,480
Speaker 1: and hack a computer don't deserve love if they want

1151
01:07:23,520 --> 01:07:25,360
Speaker 1: love or and they want a relationship, But it's like

1152
01:07:25,440 --> 01:07:28,680
Speaker 1: more the way that it's executed and how what we're

1153
01:07:28,680 --> 01:07:30,880
Speaker 1: told in the first half of the movie is what

1154
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:34,280
Speaker 1: makes her special, isn't what makes her special or relevant

1155
01:07:34,280 --> 01:07:37,560
Speaker 1: to the plot by the end, And that is like

1156
01:07:38,120 --> 01:07:41,000
Speaker 1: I don't know if that all like played in and

1157
01:07:41,560 --> 01:07:47,240
Speaker 1: she wants a boyfriend. Amazing, great love that, but yeah,

1158
01:07:47,320 --> 01:07:49,919
Speaker 1: I don't know. Definitely a little bit messy, but still

1159
01:07:49,960 --> 01:07:52,640
Speaker 1: I mean I keep every time I like Peel, the

1160
01:07:52,760 --> 01:07:55,480
Speaker 1: need to qualify it at every turn as like, but

1161
01:07:55,680 --> 01:07:58,320
Speaker 1: it's doing way better than any other movie was doing

1162
01:07:58,360 --> 01:08:02,200
Speaker 1: at this time, like by quite a bit. So I

1163
01:08:02,240 --> 01:08:04,160
Speaker 1: feel like, yeah, that's there's a lot of product of

1164
01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:08,560
Speaker 1: its time. Zenous to that choice along the lines of

1165
01:08:08,640 --> 01:08:10,800
Speaker 1: this being a product of its time. This is a

1166
01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:14,960
Speaker 1: movie from as we've stated at nine nine is just

1167
01:08:15,120 --> 01:08:17,880
Speaker 1: clogged with movies that are about, well, we've reached the

1168
01:08:18,120 --> 01:08:22,120
Speaker 1: end of history capitalism one and everything's great. Why do

1169
01:08:22,240 --> 01:08:25,000
Speaker 1: I feel hollow inside? And like there's like five or

1170
01:08:25,160 --> 01:08:28,200
Speaker 1: six that come out in even more if you include

1171
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:31,680
Speaker 1: two thousand. But the Matrix is the one that's held

1172
01:08:31,760 --> 01:08:35,479
Speaker 1: up best to my mind because it has this larger

1173
01:08:35,600 --> 01:08:40,639
Speaker 1: critique of everything feels empty because you have been misled

1174
01:08:40,800 --> 01:08:44,479
Speaker 1: by corporations and governments and all these systems to think

1175
01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:46,920
Speaker 1: that you do not have any actual human connection. And

1176
01:08:47,000 --> 01:08:48,960
Speaker 1: the truth is you should have human connection. You should

1177
01:08:48,960 --> 01:08:50,800
Speaker 1: move to a city at the center of the earth

1178
01:08:50,840 --> 01:08:53,280
Speaker 1: and just funck everyone you see, Like that is the

1179
01:08:53,400 --> 01:08:56,479
Speaker 1: message of these movies. But like you know, you compare

1180
01:08:56,520 --> 01:08:59,040
Speaker 1: it to something like American Beauty, which one best picture

1181
01:08:59,120 --> 01:09:01,320
Speaker 1: that year, And it's just that that vision of like

1182
01:09:01,520 --> 01:09:04,240
Speaker 1: what it means to be alive is like so shallow,

1183
01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:06,360
Speaker 1: and this movie's vision of what it means to be

1184
01:09:06,400 --> 01:09:10,640
Speaker 1: alive is so rich and fascinating and weird and complicated.

1185
01:09:10,760 --> 01:09:12,680
Speaker 1: And um, I think that is to the credit of

1186
01:09:12,800 --> 01:09:15,920
Speaker 1: the Witch, how skis whatever stumbles they may have made

1187
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:21,280
Speaker 1: along the way. Sure, I totally yeah. I just love Trinity,

1188
01:09:21,320 --> 01:09:24,040
Speaker 1: and I also love how there. I don't know the

1189
01:09:24,640 --> 01:09:26,880
Speaker 1: way that the characters are presented in this movie. I

1190
01:09:26,920 --> 01:09:28,439
Speaker 1: know it's just like a part of the aesthetic of

1191
01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:30,760
Speaker 1: this world as it is. But the women in this

1192
01:09:30,880 --> 01:09:35,000
Speaker 1: world are not aggressively sexualized. You know. Everyone is basically

1193
01:09:35,080 --> 01:09:39,080
Speaker 1: wearing the same exact outfit. Everyone has a variation on

1194
01:09:39,320 --> 01:09:43,480
Speaker 1: the same exact haircut, and then everyone has the jawline

1195
01:09:43,600 --> 01:09:47,880
Speaker 1: to pull off that haircut. And don't don't get us wrong,

1196
01:09:48,080 --> 01:09:53,280
Speaker 1: Trinity is very sexy. But yes, I agree everyone sexually

1197
01:09:53,400 --> 01:09:59,080
Speaker 1: everyone's sexually am sexy, but yeah, not overtly sexualized. Yeah,

1198
01:09:59,560 --> 01:10:02,000
Speaker 1: it's kind know that it is kind of that nineties

1199
01:10:02,080 --> 01:10:05,200
Speaker 1: Internet aesthetic where it's like, well, online everyone's the same.

1200
01:10:05,439 --> 01:10:07,960
Speaker 1: Everyone just kind of looks the same, has the same

1201
01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:10,599
Speaker 1: vibe on the Internet, no one knows you're a dog

1202
01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:14,640
Speaker 1: whatever that cartoon was at the time. Like, um, and

1203
01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:17,240
Speaker 1: I when I've watched the trailer for this there's a

1204
01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:21,439
Speaker 1: lot more less homogeneity, you know, within that world. And

1205
01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:24,720
Speaker 1: I think it's because now we understand the Internet can

1206
01:10:24,760 --> 01:10:27,679
Speaker 1: be as terrible as real life too, if not worse.

1207
01:10:30,040 --> 01:10:33,680
Speaker 1: I wanted to uh, we even talked too much about Morpheus,

1208
01:10:33,840 --> 01:10:38,519
Speaker 1: yet I wanted to talk about Morpheus a little bit.

1209
01:10:38,560 --> 01:10:43,040
Speaker 1: I mean, first of all, because he's amazing, he's great, um,

1210
01:10:43,320 --> 01:10:45,400
Speaker 1: But there was as I was going back to it,

1211
01:10:45,479 --> 01:10:50,480
Speaker 1: so I was doing the always interesting but sometimes unpleasant

1212
01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:53,040
Speaker 1: task of going back to the original round of criticism

1213
01:10:53,479 --> 01:10:56,920
Speaker 1: for this movie in the late nineties, going into kind

1214
01:10:56,920 --> 01:10:59,000
Speaker 1: of like movie blogs of the early two thousands, and

1215
01:10:59,520 --> 01:11:02,280
Speaker 1: there was, I think, especially in the earlier years of

1216
01:11:02,400 --> 01:11:06,280
Speaker 1: this movie, a fair amount of criticism around mystical black

1217
01:11:06,400 --> 01:11:10,559
Speaker 1: character tropes used in the writing of Morpheus's character as

1218
01:11:10,600 --> 01:11:14,160
Speaker 1: well as the oracle. UM. So I kind of wanted

1219
01:11:14,360 --> 01:11:17,920
Speaker 1: to uh open the floor on on that topic to

1220
01:11:18,160 --> 01:11:20,960
Speaker 1: I mean, the criticism that I was seeing and we

1221
01:11:21,040 --> 01:11:23,840
Speaker 1: can um link this in the description as well, is

1222
01:11:23,960 --> 01:11:26,560
Speaker 1: that and we've discussed this, I mean we we just

1223
01:11:26,720 --> 01:11:29,639
Speaker 1: discussed this on the show in our full Court Miracle

1224
01:11:29,800 --> 01:11:33,439
Speaker 1: episode or that troupe couldn't be more different movies, but

1225
01:11:33,680 --> 01:11:37,479
Speaker 1: the trope is at play to varying degrees in both

1226
01:11:37,560 --> 01:11:39,960
Speaker 1: of these movies that are made by and you know,

1227
01:11:40,040 --> 01:11:43,840
Speaker 1: made and written by white filmmakers, in which essentially black

1228
01:11:43,960 --> 01:11:49,200
Speaker 1: character appears as this mystical fairy godmother plot advancement character

1229
01:11:49,680 --> 01:11:53,160
Speaker 1: for the chosen white protagonist, whether that be Neo or

1230
01:11:53,439 --> 01:11:56,120
Speaker 1: the kid in Full Court Miracle. You know, it just

1231
01:11:56,840 --> 01:12:00,920
Speaker 1: it just all depends um. And I mean I I

1232
01:12:01,040 --> 01:12:04,280
Speaker 1: think that it's absolutely a valid criticism of the way

1233
01:12:04,360 --> 01:12:07,880
Speaker 1: that those characters are written. Not the worst example, but

1234
01:12:08,240 --> 01:12:13,000
Speaker 1: um certainly is present. I think Originally, I mean, the

1235
01:12:13,120 --> 01:12:15,880
Speaker 1: term was originally used by Spike Lee in two thousand

1236
01:12:15,960 --> 01:12:20,720
Speaker 1: and one, and I have an old Salon article up

1237
01:12:20,760 --> 01:12:24,040
Speaker 1: here which really takes me back. But the character is

1238
01:12:24,080 --> 01:12:27,080
Speaker 1: being cited. When this term was first coined. Was Kuba

1239
01:12:27,120 --> 01:12:30,960
Speaker 1: Gooding Jr. In What Dreams May Come, which is a

1240
01:12:31,040 --> 01:12:33,400
Speaker 1: movie I haven't seen that's about a spirit guide helping

1241
01:12:33,520 --> 01:12:37,240
Speaker 1: Robin Williams rescue his wife from hell. Question mark um

1242
01:12:38,200 --> 01:12:41,439
Speaker 1: will Smith in the Legend of Bagger vans Uh Laurence

1243
01:12:41,479 --> 01:12:44,479
Speaker 1: Fishburne in The Matrix, which is described as in this

1244
01:12:44,640 --> 01:12:48,040
Speaker 1: as obi Wana. Kiana Reeves is Luke Skywalker, and Michael

1245
01:12:48,080 --> 01:12:52,120
Speaker 1: Clarke Duncan in The Green Mile, in which he plays

1246
01:12:52,400 --> 01:12:56,160
Speaker 1: a man on death Row who has healing powers and

1247
01:12:56,280 --> 01:12:59,920
Speaker 1: heels white characters. Do you want to know the Supper

1248
01:13:00,040 --> 01:13:05,360
Speaker 1: Eyes twist of What Dreams May Come? What Cooper Gooding Jr.

1249
01:13:05,520 --> 01:13:09,240
Speaker 1: Is playing Robin williams son in disguise to like lead

1250
01:13:09,360 --> 01:13:13,280
Speaker 1: him through the afterlife, because if it was his actual son,

1251
01:13:13,479 --> 01:13:16,920
Speaker 1: Robin Williams wouldn't like go along with it. I don't know,

1252
01:13:17,640 --> 01:13:21,519
Speaker 1: it's very weird. I have never heard of this movie,

1253
01:13:21,760 --> 01:13:28,160
Speaker 1: and but um, yeah, so I did. I did want to,

1254
01:13:28,479 --> 01:13:31,960
Speaker 1: you know, just bring that criticism up, because it's uh,

1255
01:13:32,479 --> 01:13:34,880
Speaker 1: something that comes up quite a bit in movies still.

1256
01:13:34,920 --> 01:13:37,760
Speaker 1: But I think in a high density of movies of

1257
01:13:38,080 --> 01:13:40,960
Speaker 1: this kind of stretch of years in the late nineties

1258
01:13:40,960 --> 01:13:44,960
Speaker 1: into their early two thousands, sure it does. One thing

1259
01:13:45,040 --> 01:13:47,519
Speaker 1: I like about the casting of the fourth movie is

1260
01:13:47,600 --> 01:13:51,479
Speaker 1: it seems, yes, they have abdual Matine playing who is

1261
01:13:51,520 --> 01:13:54,760
Speaker 1: obviously the Morpheus character. Um, but they have a bunch

1262
01:13:54,800 --> 01:13:57,400
Speaker 1: of other actors of color and different roles that look

1263
01:13:57,479 --> 01:13:59,240
Speaker 1: like they're going to be all kind of over the map,

1264
01:13:59,280 --> 01:14:01,960
Speaker 1: and I think that will help with this issue. I

1265
01:14:02,080 --> 01:14:06,880
Speaker 1: do think I think that like this is obviously a

1266
01:14:07,120 --> 01:14:09,720
Speaker 1: valid and important criticism of the film. I do think

1267
01:14:09,800 --> 01:14:13,040
Speaker 1: that there is the thing of you know, they get

1268
01:14:13,120 --> 01:14:15,960
Speaker 1: considered a lot of different actors for the role of Morpheus.

1269
01:14:16,000 --> 01:14:19,920
Speaker 1: They settled on Ward's fishburn, should they when they settled

1270
01:14:19,960 --> 01:14:22,080
Speaker 1: on him, did they settle on him because they had

1271
01:14:22,200 --> 01:14:27,240
Speaker 1: certain you know, racist stereotypical ideas that you know, we're

1272
01:14:27,280 --> 01:14:29,680
Speaker 1: in their heads already, you know, we can't know that.

1273
01:14:29,840 --> 01:14:32,840
Speaker 1: But I do think once you've cast a black actor

1274
01:14:32,920 --> 01:14:34,880
Speaker 1: in a role like this, you do have sort of

1275
01:14:34,960 --> 01:14:37,400
Speaker 1: the burden of going back over the script and being like, Okay,

1276
01:14:37,479 --> 01:14:39,439
Speaker 1: are there ways we can complicate this? Are other ways

1277
01:14:39,479 --> 01:14:42,160
Speaker 1: we can make it more interesting? That said, I think

1278
01:14:42,200 --> 01:14:48,360
Speaker 1: that Morpheus is nowhere near Kuba cutting juniors. Like he's

1279
01:14:48,360 --> 01:14:52,960
Speaker 1: a fully realized human being, and like, sometimes the tropes

1280
01:14:53,439 --> 01:14:55,960
Speaker 1: are bad because they we just lean on the tropes,

1281
01:14:56,040 --> 01:14:59,559
Speaker 1: and sometimes the tropes exist because we need certain tropes

1282
01:14:59,600 --> 01:15:01,240
Speaker 1: to tell us worries. We're not saying we need this one.

1283
01:15:01,320 --> 01:15:03,920
Speaker 1: But Morpheus is a fully realized human being, and I

1284
01:15:04,000 --> 01:15:06,559
Speaker 1: think that keeps him from falling into the worst examples

1285
01:15:06,600 --> 01:15:09,800
Speaker 1: of this. The thing that and again it's like we're

1286
01:15:10,520 --> 01:15:13,960
Speaker 1: we're three white women here, and I want to be clear,

1287
01:15:14,040 --> 01:15:16,720
Speaker 1: extremely white. When I said big Greece witherspin energy, I

1288
01:15:16,800 --> 01:15:21,000
Speaker 1: was describing myself. Uh, but but I did, I mean

1289
01:15:21,280 --> 01:15:25,160
Speaker 1: the only thing that this is even like pushing back

1290
01:15:25,280 --> 01:15:29,160
Speaker 1: at all. But like Will Smith almost played Neo is

1291
01:15:29,960 --> 01:15:32,400
Speaker 1: another thing that I kind of took into consideration when

1292
01:15:32,439 --> 01:15:34,800
Speaker 1: I was just kind of going through this criticism is

1293
01:15:35,600 --> 01:15:37,960
Speaker 1: I think that I totally agree with the Emily where

1294
01:15:38,040 --> 01:15:41,200
Speaker 1: it is on the filmmakers once they've made their casting

1295
01:15:41,280 --> 01:15:44,519
Speaker 1: decisions to consider, you know, whether intended or not, what

1296
01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:47,560
Speaker 1: might be coming across, and and take that into consideration

1297
01:15:47,640 --> 01:15:50,759
Speaker 1: with how characters are presented and how their their storylines unfold.

1298
01:15:50,800 --> 01:15:53,280
Speaker 1: But it does seem like the cast I mean, reading

1299
01:15:53,280 --> 01:15:55,880
Speaker 1: about the casting process for The Matrix outside of this

1300
01:15:56,000 --> 01:15:59,840
Speaker 1: discussion is just very interesting. Will Smith has made so

1301
01:16:00,040 --> 01:16:02,720
Speaker 1: many YouTube videos about how he almost took his part.

1302
01:16:02,800 --> 01:16:07,240
Speaker 1: He's still mad about it. There's one in particular that

1303
01:16:07,400 --> 01:16:11,960
Speaker 1: like involves some animation and he like it's so funny.

1304
01:16:12,080 --> 01:16:14,560
Speaker 1: He's spending money telling people that he was almost in

1305
01:16:14,600 --> 01:16:18,840
Speaker 1: the Matrix, Like it's funny, it's amazing. So I I

1306
01:16:18,960 --> 01:16:21,479
Speaker 1: think that you know, where the casting dead land. It's

1307
01:16:21,479 --> 01:16:24,200
Speaker 1: a valid criticism and and you know, I think we're

1308
01:16:24,439 --> 01:16:27,200
Speaker 1: being made now, Like if this movie was coming out now,

1309
01:16:27,720 --> 01:16:29,960
Speaker 1: it would be something that would be taken into account

1310
01:16:30,680 --> 01:16:33,960
Speaker 1: carefully because Spike Lee made this criticism of all of

1311
01:16:34,040 --> 01:16:38,600
Speaker 1: these movies. So yeah, and I definitely think the Oracle

1312
01:16:39,360 --> 01:16:44,200
Speaker 1: does fall a bit more into that trope, for I mean,

1313
01:16:44,200 --> 01:16:47,639
Speaker 1: because we know nothing about her. She's in one scene,

1314
01:16:48,160 --> 01:16:51,559
Speaker 1: and everything we know about her is that she seems

1315
01:16:51,600 --> 01:16:57,280
Speaker 1: to have these like kind of otherworldly clairvoyant capabilities that

1316
01:16:57,360 --> 01:17:01,080
Speaker 1: no one else has. So yeah, she is presented as

1317
01:17:01,120 --> 01:17:05,559
Speaker 1: this very like mystical figure. I love that performer though.

1318
01:17:06,800 --> 01:17:10,599
Speaker 1: Gloria Foster so good and so there's something so warm

1319
01:17:10,680 --> 01:17:13,960
Speaker 1: about her and like I wish we'd gotten ten million

1320
01:17:14,000 --> 01:17:17,240
Speaker 1: more performances from her. She's so good. Yeah, she's also

1321
01:17:17,439 --> 01:17:21,240
Speaker 1: in the Matrix Reloaded, and then I believe that actor

1322
01:17:21,600 --> 01:17:26,720
Speaker 1: died before they shot Revolutions, but the character is still

1323
01:17:26,760 --> 01:17:28,639
Speaker 1: there and they actually comment on like why she looks

1324
01:17:28,680 --> 01:17:31,800
Speaker 1: different because she gets a different actor gets cast to

1325
01:17:31,880 --> 01:17:35,920
Speaker 1: play the Oracle in Matrix Revolutions. But um, yeah, that

1326
01:17:36,040 --> 01:17:40,479
Speaker 1: actor was incredible and like funny too in a movie

1327
01:17:40,560 --> 01:17:46,040
Speaker 1: that doesn't have a ton of like very light calming scenes.

1328
01:17:46,200 --> 01:17:48,479
Speaker 1: It's just I don't know, And and the set design,

1329
01:17:48,600 --> 01:17:52,080
Speaker 1: the kitchen, the green kitchen that she's in is so

1330
01:17:52,560 --> 01:17:56,519
Speaker 1: I don't know. She's she's good, she's very good, but

1331
01:17:56,600 --> 01:18:00,920
Speaker 1: I do think also cleanly falls into that chap. Yeah,

1332
01:18:01,320 --> 01:18:04,320
Speaker 1: I just saw that Will Smith turned this movie down

1333
01:18:04,360 --> 01:18:08,640
Speaker 1: to do Wild Wild West. Yeah, yes, isn't it. So

1334
01:18:08,760 --> 01:18:10,720
Speaker 1: that's why he's so bad about it and he'll never

1335
01:18:10,800 --> 01:18:13,640
Speaker 1: get over it is because he didn't just turn it

1336
01:18:13,680 --> 01:18:16,200
Speaker 1: down to do a different good movie. He turned it

1337
01:18:16,280 --> 01:18:21,559
Speaker 1: down to do because of my favorite bad movies. Yeah,

1338
01:18:21,800 --> 01:18:23,560
Speaker 1: we'll send you the link to the video where he

1339
01:18:23,720 --> 01:18:28,040
Speaker 1: like lays out the whole story. It's very funny. He

1340
01:18:28,200 --> 01:18:30,320
Speaker 1: was just kind of like a skeptical of the script,

1341
01:18:30,400 --> 01:18:32,160
Speaker 1: I think, And he also didn't I think he didn't

1342
01:18:32,200 --> 01:18:35,280
Speaker 1: want to be typecast as like the sci fi action

1343
01:18:35,439 --> 01:18:38,599
Speaker 1: guy because he had already been in Men in Black

1344
01:18:38,760 --> 01:18:42,200
Speaker 1: and Independence Day. So yeah, it's well, well, we'll share

1345
01:18:42,560 --> 01:18:45,240
Speaker 1: the link to everybody of that video, but it'll make

1346
01:18:45,320 --> 01:18:47,640
Speaker 1: sense on paper. But then when you know that he

1347
01:18:47,840 --> 01:18:50,120
Speaker 1: turned down the Matrix, that is funny. And I think

1348
01:18:50,160 --> 01:18:52,680
Speaker 1: it would have I mean, I wouldn't trade Keian you

1349
01:18:52,760 --> 01:18:55,479
Speaker 1: as Neo for for anyone, but I do I do

1350
01:18:55,880 --> 01:18:58,879
Speaker 1: like to think of like Will Smith and Laurence Fishburne

1351
01:18:58,880 --> 01:19:00,519
Speaker 1: would have been I mean, it would have been very different,

1352
01:19:00,560 --> 01:19:03,000
Speaker 1: but it would have been cool. It would have been good. Well,

1353
01:19:03,080 --> 01:19:05,920
Speaker 1: that's the thing. It wouldn't have been Laurence Fishburne. They

1354
01:19:06,000 --> 01:19:08,920
Speaker 1: had Val Kilmer in mind to play Morpheus, had it

1355
01:19:09,360 --> 01:19:12,559
Speaker 1: been Will Smith got cast. I have to go back

1356
01:19:12,600 --> 01:19:15,320
Speaker 1: and watch Will Smith's cursed YouTube video about this. I

1357
01:19:15,439 --> 01:19:20,439
Speaker 1: forgot about that. But even though these tropes are present

1358
01:19:20,600 --> 01:19:22,680
Speaker 1: in this movie, I would say that this is a

1359
01:19:22,760 --> 01:19:26,920
Speaker 1: surprisingly diverse cast for a late a late nineties action movie.

1360
01:19:27,360 --> 01:19:30,160
Speaker 1: And I think it gets even more diverse as the

1361
01:19:30,280 --> 01:19:33,800
Speaker 1: movies go on, because in the two sequels a ton

1362
01:19:33,960 --> 01:19:38,479
Speaker 1: of new characters are introduced, maybe even too many, I

1363
01:19:38,600 --> 01:19:42,000
Speaker 1: would argue, but most of them are people of color,

1364
01:19:42,160 --> 01:19:45,640
Speaker 1: especially the characters who are like fighting for the resistance,

1365
01:19:45,800 --> 01:19:49,559
Speaker 1: like who are like inhabitants of Zion, are like mostly

1366
01:19:49,680 --> 01:19:52,800
Speaker 1: people of color. Do you think it bugs Will Smith?

1367
01:19:52,840 --> 01:19:55,320
Speaker 1: Because Jada Pinkett Smith is in the two sequels and

1368
01:19:55,439 --> 01:19:57,360
Speaker 1: like she just holds it over him all that time,

1369
01:19:57,840 --> 01:20:01,040
Speaker 1: as I did consider that guy and have they we

1370
01:20:01,160 --> 01:20:04,320
Speaker 1: know that they have some some issues that they need

1371
01:20:04,439 --> 01:20:08,200
Speaker 1: to work out in public. They have to uh there.

1372
01:20:08,240 --> 01:20:10,679
Speaker 1: I just wanted to Sorry. I know we're having every

1373
01:20:11,120 --> 01:20:13,400
Speaker 1: and extremely academic discuss I just wanted to go through

1374
01:20:13,439 --> 01:20:16,160
Speaker 1: the other casting stuff because I always forget how kind

1375
01:20:16,200 --> 01:20:19,120
Speaker 1: of wild it was. Um so yeah, Will Smith said,

1376
01:20:19,160 --> 01:20:21,240
Speaker 1: I would rather do Wild Wild West, one of the

1377
01:20:21,840 --> 01:20:24,320
Speaker 1: taking one of the biggest els in all of casting history.

1378
01:20:25,120 --> 01:20:28,680
Speaker 1: Nicholas Cage turned it down due to family obligations. Who

1379
01:20:28,760 --> 01:20:34,160
Speaker 1: knows what that means. Uh. Leonardo DiCaprio originally accepted the part,

1380
01:20:34,280 --> 01:20:36,759
Speaker 1: but then said that he did too many visual effects

1381
01:20:36,760 --> 01:20:38,519
Speaker 1: in Titanic and he didn't want to do it anymore.

1382
01:20:39,600 --> 01:20:43,479
Speaker 1: Then the studio was like Keanu Reeves who got the

1383
01:20:43,640 --> 01:20:46,400
Speaker 1: role over Johnny Depp, who I guess is who the

1384
01:20:46,439 --> 01:20:49,760
Speaker 1: witch how skis wanted for this role. And then there

1385
01:20:49,880 --> 01:20:52,160
Speaker 1: was a side quest where they sent the screenplay to

1386
01:20:52,200 --> 01:20:54,840
Speaker 1: Sandra Bullock and we're going to rewrite Neo to be

1387
01:20:55,000 --> 01:20:59,040
Speaker 1: a woman, which I guess didn't happen, but I was like, oh,

1388
01:20:59,120 --> 01:21:02,000
Speaker 1: that's interest think, there's just really the net. It would

1389
01:21:02,040 --> 01:21:04,519
Speaker 1: just have been the net. It could have been the net.

1390
01:21:05,600 --> 01:21:08,640
Speaker 1: I yeah, so you know, that's a lot of information

1391
01:21:09,200 --> 01:21:12,559
Speaker 1: all at once. I would have loved Neo as a woman,

1392
01:21:12,680 --> 01:21:14,760
Speaker 1: especially because we talked about this a lot, where there

1393
01:21:14,800 --> 01:21:19,559
Speaker 1: are a Brazilian Chosen One narratives as movies and very

1394
01:21:19,600 --> 01:21:23,519
Speaker 1: few of them are about a woman, so that would

1395
01:21:23,560 --> 01:21:26,360
Speaker 1: have been very cool. But at the same time. I

1396
01:21:26,479 --> 01:21:30,280
Speaker 1: love Kano as Neo, I know, and and for Trinity. Sorry,

1397
01:21:30,360 --> 01:21:34,919
Speaker 1: it's just it's really interesting. Janet Jackson was considered for Trinity,

1398
01:21:35,720 --> 01:21:38,880
Speaker 1: and Samahak and Jada Pinkett Smith were also considered, and

1399
01:21:39,000 --> 01:21:42,639
Speaker 1: then um didn't do it, but then Jada came in later. Anyways,

1400
01:21:43,520 --> 01:21:46,760
Speaker 1: Janet Jackson is such a fucking good movie actress and

1401
01:21:46,920 --> 01:21:49,599
Speaker 1: she's only made just a handful of films and she's

1402
01:21:49,680 --> 01:21:53,360
Speaker 1: just really good. Come on, Janet, I want to like,

1403
01:21:53,439 --> 01:21:56,120
Speaker 1: I want Hollywood to cast Janet more often or I

1404
01:21:56,200 --> 01:21:58,240
Speaker 1: don't know, I don't know. It sounds like she was

1405
01:21:58,280 --> 01:22:01,599
Speaker 1: pretty bummed about not getting to do the main tricks. Yeah,

1406
01:22:01,880 --> 01:22:07,360
Speaker 1: but yeah again. American action franchises have usually a pretty

1407
01:22:07,400 --> 01:22:13,240
Speaker 1: big problem with casting mostly white actors. But again, the matrix,

1408
01:22:13,520 --> 01:22:16,559
Speaker 1: even the first movie is doing better than most. Between

1409
01:22:16,960 --> 01:22:21,799
Speaker 1: the protagonist Neo played by Kiana Reeves, who is coded

1410
01:22:22,080 --> 01:22:26,040
Speaker 1: white I think a lot of times in in movies,

1411
01:22:26,360 --> 01:22:32,840
Speaker 1: UM he is of European, Chinese, and Polynesian ancestry, so

1412
01:22:33,120 --> 01:22:39,720
Speaker 1: he's multiracial. So between Kanu Lawrence Fishburne as Morpheus, the

1413
01:22:39,800 --> 01:22:42,840
Speaker 1: actors who play Tank and Dozer, the actor who plays

1414
01:22:42,880 --> 01:22:48,479
Speaker 1: Apoc Julian Arjanga is Maori again just a more diverse

1415
01:22:48,640 --> 01:22:52,720
Speaker 1: cast than most action movies of this time, and more

1416
01:22:52,840 --> 01:22:58,040
Speaker 1: representative of what a futuristic leftist society would look like.

1417
01:22:58,520 --> 01:23:01,519
Speaker 1: So it makes narrative sense and world building sends in

1418
01:23:01,600 --> 01:23:04,559
Speaker 1: a way that a lot of movies ignore is true

1419
01:23:04,880 --> 01:23:07,000
Speaker 1: and like this is this has nothing to do with

1420
01:23:07,160 --> 01:23:09,560
Speaker 1: the film's racial diversity, but I think in terms of

1421
01:23:10,040 --> 01:23:13,960
Speaker 1: gender presentation diversity, obviously this movie is very androgynous across

1422
01:23:13,960 --> 01:23:16,840
Speaker 1: the board. But belindam glorious, which the character who was

1423
01:23:17,040 --> 01:23:21,080
Speaker 1: originally sort of intended is translate there, nobody was nobody

1424
01:23:21,200 --> 01:23:23,519
Speaker 1: was styled like that in an action movie at the time,

1425
01:23:23,680 --> 01:23:27,760
Speaker 1: Like she's just so there's just such an an androgynous,

1426
01:23:28,320 --> 01:23:32,400
Speaker 1: nonconforming energy just sort of pouring off of her totally.

1427
01:23:32,920 --> 01:23:34,760
Speaker 1: And I really, I mean, I just and this is

1428
01:23:35,200 --> 01:23:38,240
Speaker 1: kind of just like a compliment to the movie. But

1429
01:23:38,640 --> 01:23:42,120
Speaker 1: the way that the crew of the ship, which I'm

1430
01:23:42,320 --> 01:23:43,760
Speaker 1: not going to try to say because I'm not going

1431
01:23:43,800 --> 01:23:46,360
Speaker 1: to say it right, but the way that the crew

1432
01:23:46,600 --> 01:23:50,120
Speaker 1: works together, I just I just really like how they

1433
01:23:50,200 --> 01:23:53,439
Speaker 1: interact with each other. Where like you were saying earlier

1434
01:23:53,520 --> 01:23:56,600
Speaker 1: in this episode, only like everyone has a distinct personality

1435
01:23:56,760 --> 01:23:59,880
Speaker 1: even when you don't hear them speak very much. Everyone

1436
01:24:00,040 --> 01:24:02,360
Speaker 1: knows what their role is. But I just I don't

1437
01:24:02,400 --> 01:24:04,559
Speaker 1: know the way that the movie is written and they're

1438
01:24:04,680 --> 01:24:08,320
Speaker 1: used so thoughtfully to like, oh, this person is talking

1439
01:24:08,360 --> 01:24:11,080
Speaker 1: behind Morpheus is back a little bit, or like the

1440
01:24:11,120 --> 01:24:15,400
Speaker 1: way that Trinity clearly has this deep respect for Morpheus

1441
01:24:15,479 --> 01:24:17,639
Speaker 1: but is sometimes like, well he's wrong about that though,

1442
01:24:17,680 --> 01:24:20,600
Speaker 1: like he's wrong and he is being shortsighted, and just

1443
01:24:20,800 --> 01:24:23,840
Speaker 1: like I don't know, I really love when there's a

1444
01:24:24,200 --> 01:24:27,120
Speaker 1: group of characters who clearly hold a lot of love

1445
01:24:27,200 --> 01:24:29,080
Speaker 1: and respect for each other, but also we are constantly

1446
01:24:29,120 --> 01:24:32,680
Speaker 1: talking about each other um in a way that is

1447
01:24:32,760 --> 01:24:37,040
Speaker 1: just like very effortless, and in this completely bizarro world,

1448
01:24:37,280 --> 01:24:40,880
Speaker 1: feels like real and like actual dynamics that you would

1449
01:24:40,880 --> 01:24:43,960
Speaker 1: see in a group of friends who you know, the

1450
01:24:44,000 --> 01:24:46,080
Speaker 1: fate of the world is not hinged on. Is it

1451
01:24:46,200 --> 01:24:48,800
Speaker 1: fair to say that part of the trans allegory is

1452
01:24:49,080 --> 01:24:52,880
Speaker 1: that like this group of people is like each other's

1453
01:24:52,960 --> 01:24:56,240
Speaker 1: chosen family. Yeah, that's I think that that is very

1454
01:24:56,400 --> 01:24:59,439
Speaker 1: um there is a queerness to it that is very

1455
01:24:59,600 --> 01:25:02,640
Speaker 1: I think interesting and I don't know how intentional, but

1456
01:25:03,160 --> 01:25:08,200
Speaker 1: definitely subconsciously intentional, intentional. I'm thinking about how they're making

1457
01:25:08,400 --> 01:25:12,120
Speaker 1: so many TV shows set in like movie universes now,

1458
01:25:12,600 --> 01:25:14,800
Speaker 1: and like a show just sort of set on any

1459
01:25:14,880 --> 01:25:17,360
Speaker 1: given ship in the Matrix universe where they're just like

1460
01:25:17,520 --> 01:25:20,679
Speaker 1: hanging out and complaining about each other and occasionally fighting

1461
01:25:20,720 --> 01:25:24,960
Speaker 1: spider robots. Brad. I'd watch that, I would watch. That

1462
01:25:25,040 --> 01:25:27,400
Speaker 1: would be incredible. Yeah. The one thing I didn't watch

1463
01:25:27,479 --> 01:25:30,639
Speaker 1: in preparation for this was Animatrix, which I haven't seen

1464
01:25:30,800 --> 01:25:34,160
Speaker 1: at all, and I've heard it's good and I think

1465
01:25:34,240 --> 01:25:36,040
Speaker 1: I just need to sit down and commit to it.

1466
01:25:36,200 --> 01:25:38,920
Speaker 1: But it's really hard to see now. I think it's

1467
01:25:38,960 --> 01:25:42,120
Speaker 1: on HBO Max. It's on HBO Max. Okay, so I

1468
01:25:42,240 --> 01:25:44,880
Speaker 1: just for a long time it was hard to see. Yeah,

1469
01:25:45,280 --> 01:25:46,920
Speaker 1: it seems to be accessible now, so I'm going to

1470
01:25:47,000 --> 01:25:49,920
Speaker 1: go check it out. But um oh, I was going

1471
01:25:49,960 --> 01:25:52,800
Speaker 1: to say, going back to the discussion of gender expression

1472
01:25:53,000 --> 01:25:58,519
Speaker 1: and presentation of certain characters, Trinity's character design and aesthetic

1473
01:25:59,000 --> 01:26:02,799
Speaker 1: is also what you would expect as the main female

1474
01:26:02,880 --> 01:26:06,080
Speaker 1: character in an action movie who also plays the role

1475
01:26:06,240 --> 01:26:11,679
Speaker 1: of the love interest of the male hero. Her clothes

1476
01:26:11,880 --> 01:26:15,600
Speaker 1: and haircut are I would say pretty gender neutral. You know,

1477
01:26:15,720 --> 01:26:20,080
Speaker 1: she doesn't have this long flowing hair that's completely impractical

1478
01:26:20,240 --> 01:26:23,559
Speaker 1: to fight bad guys with. And she's not like made

1479
01:26:23,640 --> 01:26:25,400
Speaker 1: up in a bunch of makeup the way that, again,

1480
01:26:25,520 --> 01:26:29,320
Speaker 1: a lot of women would be in an action franchise,

1481
01:26:29,439 --> 01:26:32,720
Speaker 1: because the function that a lot of women serve in

1482
01:26:32,800 --> 01:26:36,320
Speaker 1: an action franchise is to like be eye candy for

1483
01:26:36,520 --> 01:26:40,120
Speaker 1: what the studios assume is going to be a mostly

1484
01:26:40,360 --> 01:26:44,559
Speaker 1: hetero male audience. But they don't stylize Trinity that way,

1485
01:26:45,080 --> 01:26:46,760
Speaker 1: and it wouldn't make sense that she would like be

1486
01:26:46,920 --> 01:26:50,000
Speaker 1: all made up when she's like flying around in the Nebuchadnezzar.

1487
01:26:50,360 --> 01:26:52,160
Speaker 1: But they also don't make her up that way when

1488
01:26:52,240 --> 01:26:55,320
Speaker 1: she's like in the Matrix either, which I thought was

1489
01:26:55,880 --> 01:27:00,040
Speaker 1: interesting and cool. They in fact even make her a

1490
01:27:00,200 --> 01:27:03,519
Speaker 1: little less glamorous in the sequels, like if that's an all,

1491
01:27:03,800 --> 01:27:06,880
Speaker 1: Like I love how stripped down the visuals of this

1492
01:27:07,120 --> 01:27:10,479
Speaker 1: just just constantly are in terms of not trying to

1493
01:27:10,560 --> 01:27:14,960
Speaker 1: make anyone movie pretty. There of course incredibly attractive, but

1494
01:27:15,040 --> 01:27:19,880
Speaker 1: they don't like overstate that attractiveness, right yeah, I mean,

1495
01:27:20,040 --> 01:27:24,240
Speaker 1: And again it's just like the Wakis are so confident

1496
01:27:24,479 --> 01:27:27,240
Speaker 1: when they make a choice, they make it so hard

1497
01:27:27,479 --> 01:27:29,559
Speaker 1: that it's like, yeah, we're just gonna let the hot

1498
01:27:29,640 --> 01:27:33,000
Speaker 1: people be hot and not you know, they're all going

1499
01:27:33,040 --> 01:27:34,920
Speaker 1: to wear the same outfit. We don't need to embellish it.

1500
01:27:35,080 --> 01:27:37,400
Speaker 1: Like we're just gonna let the jawlines do what they

1501
01:27:37,439 --> 01:27:40,000
Speaker 1: do and fall where they may, and it's going to

1502
01:27:40,120 --> 01:27:45,400
Speaker 1: be sexy because it is. Like I was just thinking

1503
01:27:45,439 --> 01:27:49,000
Speaker 1: about the bullet time thing where the camera swings all

1504
01:27:49,000 --> 01:27:53,280
Speaker 1: the way around. I like the other early major use

1505
01:27:53,360 --> 01:27:58,400
Speaker 1: of this technology was for a gap commercial like really

1506
01:27:58,560 --> 01:28:01,479
Speaker 1: that came out at the holiday as. Yeah, it was

1507
01:28:01,560 --> 01:28:04,760
Speaker 1: like they were doing a swing dance or something. Oh yeah,

1508
01:28:04,920 --> 01:28:08,439
Speaker 1: I remember that. I cannot remember if the gap ad

1509
01:28:08,560 --> 01:28:11,120
Speaker 1: predates the Matrix or the Matrix predates the gap at

1510
01:28:11,120 --> 01:28:13,960
Speaker 1: because I don't think that bullet time was invented for

1511
01:28:14,040 --> 01:28:15,479
Speaker 1: the Matrix, but I think it was like a thing

1512
01:28:15,600 --> 01:28:18,080
Speaker 1: that they pulled in that other people had also come

1513
01:28:18,200 --> 01:28:20,680
Speaker 1: up with. But I would not be surprised if it

1514
01:28:20,800 --> 01:28:23,200
Speaker 1: would be great if the gap AD came first and

1515
01:28:23,400 --> 01:28:25,880
Speaker 1: like everyone in the Matrix was like we missed it

1516
01:28:26,040 --> 01:28:29,000
Speaker 1: by like two months, um, But I do think the

1517
01:28:29,040 --> 01:28:32,080
Speaker 1: Matrix came first, So I would love sitting in a

1518
01:28:32,120 --> 01:28:35,960
Speaker 1: movie theater. Here's someone lean over and be like, they're

1519
01:28:36,000 --> 01:28:40,640
Speaker 1: just ripping off that gap commercial. I saw so derivative

1520
01:28:40,680 --> 01:28:46,240
Speaker 1: of that gap commercial. Unbelievable. UM. I wanted to really

1521
01:28:46,360 --> 01:28:49,120
Speaker 1: quickly touch on just because and we can kind of

1522
01:28:49,520 --> 01:28:55,760
Speaker 1: blow through this, but because the red pill discussion snowballed

1523
01:28:55,800 --> 01:28:58,280
Speaker 1: out in the way that it did, I just wanted

1524
01:28:58,320 --> 01:29:01,960
Speaker 1: to quickly touch on not even UM. I mean, I'm

1525
01:29:02,000 --> 01:29:04,000
Speaker 1: assuming if you listen to the show, you're aware of

1526
01:29:04,640 --> 01:29:09,439
Speaker 1: the wild misinterpretation that the term red pill had taken,

1527
01:29:09,520 --> 01:29:12,439
Speaker 1: where it's intended to be some reveal of a great

1528
01:29:12,479 --> 01:29:17,200
Speaker 1: truth and then was co opted by right wing weirdos

1529
01:29:17,320 --> 01:29:20,120
Speaker 1: who were like, yeah, and the truth is that straight

1530
01:29:20,200 --> 01:29:23,280
Speaker 1: white guys are oppressed, and you're like, that's not the

1531
01:29:23,360 --> 01:29:26,400
Speaker 1: one that was being referred to. UM. But I did

1532
01:29:26,560 --> 01:29:30,800
Speaker 1: just want to um quickly. It seems like the Wachowski's,

1533
01:29:30,800 --> 01:29:34,240
Speaker 1: I mean, the Witchowskis have responded to this, but I

1534
01:29:34,320 --> 01:29:38,880
Speaker 1: think the best exchange was from Lily Wichowski back in May,

1535
01:29:40,280 --> 01:29:43,439
Speaker 1: because that's when Elon Musk tweeted take the red Pill,

1536
01:29:44,479 --> 01:29:49,160
Speaker 1: and then Ivanka Trump retweeted it saying taken, and then

1537
01:29:49,320 --> 01:29:54,479
Speaker 1: Lily Wachowski replied by saying funk both of you, which

1538
01:29:54,520 --> 01:29:57,439
Speaker 1: I think is really all you need to know. That's

1539
01:29:57,520 --> 01:30:01,240
Speaker 1: that that's the story, and that show an icon. I

1540
01:30:01,360 --> 01:30:04,479
Speaker 1: remember I covered the early days of gamer Gate, which

1541
01:30:04,560 --> 01:30:07,559
Speaker 1: is the reactionary movement that basically folved into the Trump

1542
01:30:07,640 --> 01:30:11,400
Speaker 1: campaign UM, and they were all talking about the red Pill,

1543
01:30:11,520 --> 01:30:13,479
Speaker 1: and I was like, I feel like you haven't actually

1544
01:30:13,560 --> 01:30:15,640
Speaker 1: watched the Matrix, and like at the time, I was like,

1545
01:30:15,960 --> 01:30:17,880
Speaker 1: this will dispel this if I just I'm like, no,

1546
01:30:17,960 --> 01:30:20,599
Speaker 1: the Matrix is a very different theme, but it didn't

1547
01:30:20,600 --> 01:30:25,479
Speaker 1: work for some reason. To this day, the gap ad

1548
01:30:25,600 --> 01:30:30,600
Speaker 1: does predate the mat I can't believe it. Okay, I

1549
01:30:30,720 --> 01:30:35,360
Speaker 1: don't like the Matrix anymore. Derivative. The tech that made

1550
01:30:35,439 --> 01:30:38,000
Speaker 1: up bullet time has been around since like the dawn

1551
01:30:38,040 --> 01:30:39,560
Speaker 1: of cinema. People have been like, if we put a

1552
01:30:39,640 --> 01:30:41,880
Speaker 1: bunch of cameras around something in film it from all

1553
01:30:41,920 --> 01:30:45,240
Speaker 1: those angles, then we can But like computers were required

1554
01:30:45,320 --> 01:30:49,559
Speaker 1: to like actually simulate moving around, and the gap AD

1555
01:30:50,160 --> 01:30:54,040
Speaker 1: just like got there first. But the term bullet time

1556
01:30:54,080 --> 01:30:58,200
Speaker 1: specifically was coined for the Matrix. So God, I want

1557
01:30:58,240 --> 01:30:59,840
Speaker 1: to see that gap commercial now. I don't think I've

1558
01:30:59,840 --> 01:31:02,720
Speaker 1: ever seen it. Yeah, I mean i'd have to link

1559
01:31:02,760 --> 01:31:04,679
Speaker 1: it in the description. I say that five hundred times

1560
01:31:04,720 --> 01:31:06,360
Speaker 1: an episode, and then I have to go find it.

1561
01:31:06,439 --> 01:31:10,320
Speaker 1: And it's awful. I'm posting. I'm posting the bullet time

1562
01:31:10,400 --> 01:31:13,920
Speaker 1: at in chat. Thank you so much. Okay, thank you. Um.

1563
01:31:14,600 --> 01:31:17,240
Speaker 1: Does anyone have anything else they would like to talk

1564
01:31:17,320 --> 01:31:22,040
Speaker 1: about in regards to the Matrix? That's all I had,

1565
01:31:22,200 --> 01:31:25,519
Speaker 1: I believe. Yeah. I just wanted to state that I

1566
01:31:25,600 --> 01:31:30,840
Speaker 1: have found my anagram and it's a Warden fever filmy. Wow,

1567
01:31:33,200 --> 01:31:36,719
Speaker 1: that's really okay. Get the merch. Get the merch going amazing.

1568
01:31:36,880 --> 01:31:40,720
Speaker 1: Mine I couldn't find my mine all suck. I don't

1569
01:31:40,720 --> 01:31:43,479
Speaker 1: know what's wrong. My I got the wrong letters. Jamie.

1570
01:31:43,600 --> 01:31:47,720
Speaker 1: Just come up with the hacker name for yourself, and

1571
01:31:47,840 --> 01:31:49,479
Speaker 1: then I know. I used to do a whole show

1572
01:31:49,520 --> 01:31:51,840
Speaker 1: about hackers, but I didn't know what I was talking about,

1573
01:31:51,880 --> 01:31:55,160
Speaker 1: so I've had to stop doing the show. But maybe

1574
01:31:55,240 --> 01:31:58,320
Speaker 1: that name will be more in agrammable. It's true, it's

1575
01:31:58,400 --> 01:32:01,720
Speaker 1: just a thought. I'll work on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um.

1576
01:32:02,320 --> 01:32:07,519
Speaker 1: We've had this conversation before on the other Matrix episode

1577
01:32:07,920 --> 01:32:11,720
Speaker 1: that has been lost to time, about whether or not

1578
01:32:12,040 --> 01:32:16,320
Speaker 1: this movie passes the Bechdel test. Yeah, and I feel

1579
01:32:16,400 --> 01:32:18,560
Speaker 1: I don't remember what we concluded, and I did not

1580
01:32:18,720 --> 01:32:21,400
Speaker 1: remember to pay attention to whether or not it passes

1581
01:32:21,880 --> 01:32:24,800
Speaker 1: when I was watching it this time around. I think

1582
01:32:24,880 --> 01:32:31,000
Speaker 1: it's a barely pass situation due to a quick exchange

1583
01:32:31,240 --> 01:32:34,839
Speaker 1: that Trinity and Switch have in the car when Neo's

1584
01:32:34,840 --> 01:32:38,559
Speaker 1: got the bug all scooting around in his guts. It's

1585
01:32:38,600 --> 01:32:41,400
Speaker 1: possible that he's the subtext of that conversation. But I'm

1586
01:32:41,600 --> 01:32:44,720
Speaker 1: inclined to just want to give this movie anything we can.

1587
01:32:44,960 --> 01:32:47,439
Speaker 1: But I didn't know that they have like one or

1588
01:32:47,520 --> 01:32:49,559
Speaker 1: two exchanges they are just between the two of them

1589
01:32:49,760 --> 01:32:53,200
Speaker 1: that I believe are about the bug. They're about the bug,

1590
01:32:53,320 --> 01:32:55,880
Speaker 1: but the bug is in Neo, so I don't know

1591
01:32:56,920 --> 01:32:59,040
Speaker 1: about it. I mean, we've all got a bug inside

1592
01:32:59,080 --> 01:33:03,519
Speaker 1: of us somewhere, so technically that's true, the Bug and

1593
01:33:03,600 --> 01:33:10,439
Speaker 1: the Bug famously genderless, genderless icon the Bug, the Bug. Yeah,

1594
01:33:10,640 --> 01:33:13,400
Speaker 1: And then I remember talking about how there's a conversation

1595
01:33:13,520 --> 01:33:17,160
Speaker 1: where when Cipher is sabotaging them and when he kills

1596
01:33:17,720 --> 01:33:21,400
Speaker 1: Switch and Apoc, he's talking to Trinity and he's like,

1597
01:33:21,439 --> 01:33:23,880
Speaker 1: if there's anything terribly important you have to say to Switch,

1598
01:33:24,040 --> 01:33:27,080
Speaker 1: say it now. And then before Trinity can say anything

1599
01:33:27,200 --> 01:33:30,360
Speaker 1: to switch and then maybe pass the Bechdel test. Uh,

1600
01:33:30,600 --> 01:33:35,080
Speaker 1: cipher kills switch. So he really doesn't want women to

1601
01:33:35,160 --> 01:33:39,000
Speaker 1: talk to each other. Yeah, that's why he's not an ally,

1602
01:33:39,479 --> 01:33:43,360
Speaker 1: not because he's murdering people. Now, technically, you're right, this

1603
01:33:43,479 --> 01:33:46,960
Speaker 1: movie does barely pass because the bug is genderless. But

1604
01:33:47,080 --> 01:33:51,320
Speaker 1: when you consider that Neo and Trinity are both trans lesbians,

1605
01:33:52,000 --> 01:33:57,760
Speaker 1: then it passes so much flying colors. Let's go with that.

1606
01:33:59,080 --> 01:34:03,280
Speaker 1: I just I just want to give this movie nice. Thanks, Jamie.

1607
01:34:03,280 --> 01:34:05,759
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you like it. I was not sure

1608
01:34:05,920 --> 01:34:08,519
Speaker 1: if you would because I know you're famously not an

1609
01:34:08,560 --> 01:34:11,920
Speaker 1: action movie fan. But it's not just an action movie.

1610
01:34:12,000 --> 01:34:15,120
Speaker 1: There's so much coming with so much more, and they

1611
01:34:15,160 --> 01:34:17,920
Speaker 1: have a little horny Will Poulter character. I'm like, you

1612
01:34:18,000 --> 01:34:21,160
Speaker 1: know what, I like the movie. It's good. No, I

1613
01:34:21,479 --> 01:34:25,560
Speaker 1: really loved it. There is this on the website that

1614
01:34:26,000 --> 01:34:28,840
Speaker 1: exists in service of the Bechtel test, which is I

1615
01:34:28,920 --> 01:34:31,040
Speaker 1: think wrong quite a bit of the time. But spectel

1616
01:34:31,080 --> 01:34:35,719
Speaker 1: test dot com there is such an extensive conversation arguing

1617
01:34:35,760 --> 01:34:37,720
Speaker 1: about whether this movie passes the Bechtel test. No one

1618
01:34:37,720 --> 01:34:40,639
Speaker 1: seems to agree. I just pulled it up and people

1619
01:34:40,680 --> 01:34:43,519
Speaker 1: do talk about that scene in the car, and people

1620
01:34:43,560 --> 01:34:45,920
Speaker 1: are arguing about what we were just talking about of like,

1621
01:34:46,040 --> 01:34:49,600
Speaker 1: well the bug in the which, honestly, if you have

1622
01:34:49,760 --> 01:34:51,640
Speaker 1: to get I feel like our rule of thumb is like,

1623
01:34:51,680 --> 01:34:52,960
Speaker 1: if you have to get that far in the weeds

1624
01:34:52,960 --> 01:34:55,360
Speaker 1: about it, it probably doesn't test the Recktel test if

1625
01:34:55,360 --> 01:34:57,760
Speaker 1: you have to like split hairs like that. But I

1626
01:34:57,880 --> 01:35:01,160
Speaker 1: think under Emily's qualification it does pass, and let's not

1627
01:35:01,280 --> 01:35:03,680
Speaker 1: worry about it. I'll just go on that site and

1628
01:35:03,720 --> 01:35:05,400
Speaker 1: I'll be like, no, listen, everyone in this movie is

1629
01:35:05,400 --> 01:35:12,360
Speaker 1: a trans lesbian. Passes every test. The whole movie passes. Yeah. Also,

1630
01:35:13,000 --> 01:35:15,439
Speaker 1: as we always say that, you know, the Bechtel test

1631
01:35:15,600 --> 01:35:18,519
Speaker 1: is not the end all be all for anything. It's

1632
01:35:18,520 --> 01:35:20,960
Speaker 1: just a jumping off point. What is the end all

1633
01:35:21,000 --> 01:35:25,559
Speaker 1: be all is the nipple scale? Yes, which is our

1634
01:35:26,200 --> 01:35:34,719
Speaker 1: metric zero. Really appreciated your visceral reaction of hear us out. Technically,

1635
01:35:35,080 --> 01:35:37,640
Speaker 1: this movie has obviously I know what we're going to

1636
01:35:37,720 --> 01:35:39,160
Speaker 1: do here, but this I was just thinking about how

1637
01:35:39,200 --> 01:35:40,840
Speaker 1: this movie has a whole bunch of other nipples on

1638
01:35:40,920 --> 01:35:43,080
Speaker 1: your back, Like those are just kind of got some

1639
01:35:43,200 --> 01:35:46,520
Speaker 1: back nipples. They've got back nipples. You've got armed nipples,

1640
01:35:46,760 --> 01:35:49,640
Speaker 1: You've got the back of the head nipple. There's a

1641
01:35:49,680 --> 01:35:52,840
Speaker 1: lot um wowskis. Know what we wanted. It's nipples and

1642
01:35:53,560 --> 01:35:57,639
Speaker 1: it's like hard plastic black Witchy saw Joel Schumacher nipples

1643
01:35:57,680 --> 01:36:00,559
Speaker 1: and we're like, we could, we can do more wreaking

1644
01:36:00,600 --> 01:36:06,720
Speaker 1: to Okay, So zero to five nipples based on how

1645
01:36:06,840 --> 01:36:13,200
Speaker 1: the movie fares examining it through an intersectional feminist lens, Gosh,

1646
01:36:13,439 --> 01:36:17,200
Speaker 1: me loving this movie so deeply might cloud my judgment

1647
01:36:17,240 --> 01:36:20,679
Speaker 1: a bit here, But I love that there are multiple

1648
01:36:20,760 --> 01:36:24,200
Speaker 1: different reads of this movie, one of them being this

1649
01:36:24,600 --> 01:36:28,080
Speaker 1: really interesting trans allegory. I love that this is a

1650
01:36:28,200 --> 01:36:33,400
Speaker 1: major franchise directed by trans women, which hopefully paves the

1651
01:36:33,439 --> 01:36:37,840
Speaker 1: way for there to be more transvisibility on screen of

1652
01:36:38,000 --> 01:36:42,400
Speaker 1: actual trans people and not just it all being a

1653
01:36:42,479 --> 01:36:47,519
Speaker 1: metaphor that features all siss people. You know that that's

1654
01:36:47,720 --> 01:36:50,400
Speaker 1: like the goal that we're aiming for, right, is just

1655
01:36:50,600 --> 01:36:54,280
Speaker 1: like more visibility and hopefully things don't have to be

1656
01:36:55,240 --> 01:36:59,320
Speaker 1: coded and um steeped in metaphor and and things like that.

1657
01:36:59,400 --> 01:37:03,200
Speaker 1: But it was nine to Trinity being a character who

1658
01:37:03,240 --> 01:37:07,200
Speaker 1: I always loved and admired, and that was so Cool

1659
01:37:07,439 --> 01:37:11,720
Speaker 1: and I love just everything about the damn movie. I'm

1660
01:37:11,760 --> 01:37:19,439
Speaker 1: going to give it four nipples plus maybe also a

1661
01:37:19,479 --> 01:37:23,000
Speaker 1: half nipple on top of that. Is that too much? Yeah?

1662
01:37:23,080 --> 01:37:27,080
Speaker 1: We we do give halves and sometimes even quarter nipples.

1663
01:37:27,240 --> 01:37:29,760
Speaker 1: Get into the decimals if you need to. You know,

1664
01:37:30,280 --> 01:37:34,200
Speaker 1: it's point three through three repeating, um, whatever it needs

1665
01:37:34,280 --> 01:37:38,759
Speaker 1: to be. I mean maybe I'm being too generous, but again,

1666
01:37:39,080 --> 01:37:42,680
Speaker 1: I love this movie. I think it holds up and

1667
01:37:42,720 --> 01:37:45,120
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go out four and a half nipples done, love,

1668
01:37:45,280 --> 01:37:48,240
Speaker 1: Who are you giving your nipples too? I'm going to

1669
01:37:48,439 --> 01:37:54,679
Speaker 1: give one to Keanu Reeves, who is the best man alive.

1670
01:37:55,680 --> 01:37:59,599
Speaker 1: I'm going to give one to Gloria Foster, who plays

1671
01:37:59,680 --> 01:38:04,160
Speaker 1: the Cool. I'll give one nipple to Blenda McClory, who

1672
01:38:04,200 --> 01:38:08,880
Speaker 1: plays Switch. I'll give one nipple to Laurence Fishburn. And

1673
01:38:08,920 --> 01:38:11,800
Speaker 1: I'll give my half nipple to the little Black Cat,

1674
01:38:11,920 --> 01:38:16,479
Speaker 1: who we see twice in the deja vu scene, Little Flee.

1675
01:38:16,720 --> 01:38:18,559
Speaker 1: He's just like my cat. Yeah, so for and half

1676
01:38:18,640 --> 01:38:22,040
Speaker 1: nipples boom. I'm going to go for and half as well,

1677
01:38:22,880 --> 01:38:25,320
Speaker 1: mostly because I'm like, I like this movie so much.

1678
01:38:25,439 --> 01:38:30,360
Speaker 1: What a what a long standing edging experience of saying

1679
01:38:30,400 --> 01:38:32,519
Speaker 1: I was going to watch this movie, never doing it,

1680
01:38:33,120 --> 01:38:35,920
Speaker 1: lying out my ass and then learning that I loved

1681
01:38:35,960 --> 01:38:38,479
Speaker 1: it and I'm excited to watch it again, and I'm

1682
01:38:38,479 --> 01:38:40,920
Speaker 1: excited to watch the new one too, Jimmie, let's go together.

1683
01:38:41,439 --> 01:38:43,280
Speaker 1: We should. Oh yeah, let's go because I know it's

1684
01:38:43,280 --> 01:38:45,080
Speaker 1: it's coming out on HBO Max, but it seems like

1685
01:38:45,120 --> 01:38:50,280
Speaker 1: something that you should see. I would love to, so yeah,

1686
01:38:50,360 --> 01:38:53,400
Speaker 1: I I'll echo what you're saying there, Caitlin. There are

1687
01:38:53,439 --> 01:38:56,639
Speaker 1: certainly like dated elements to certain things of the plot,

1688
01:38:56,720 --> 01:38:59,160
Speaker 1: but you know, it's as far as movies from this

1689
01:38:59,280 --> 01:39:02,760
Speaker 1: year goes. I mean, what more can you ask for?

1690
01:39:03,080 --> 01:39:05,360
Speaker 1: And it's also just I don't know, it's like such

1691
01:39:05,439 --> 01:39:09,160
Speaker 1: a movie. Does that make sense? You know, it's such

1692
01:39:09,200 --> 01:39:12,840
Speaker 1: a movie movie. And I was just interested in every

1693
01:39:12,920 --> 01:39:17,800
Speaker 1: second and everyone was so unique, even though they all

1694
01:39:17,920 --> 01:39:19,439
Speaker 1: kind of like look the same, but that also they

1695
01:39:19,479 --> 01:39:22,400
Speaker 1: didn't and there was a lot of diversity, and they're like,

1696
01:39:22,600 --> 01:39:26,160
Speaker 1: I just it's so fun. I'm excited to watch this

1697
01:39:26,280 --> 01:39:28,880
Speaker 1: movie again and not have to take notes this time.

1698
01:39:28,920 --> 01:39:32,880
Speaker 1: It's going to be fun. Yeah. Uh so, I'm gonna

1699
01:39:32,880 --> 01:39:34,720
Speaker 1: give it for and a half nipples. I'll give one

1700
01:39:34,840 --> 01:39:38,800
Speaker 1: to Trinity. I'll give one to the Oracle. I'm gonna

1701
01:39:38,920 --> 01:39:45,599
Speaker 1: give one to Mouse. Sorry, uh loved mouse, loved mouse.

1702
01:39:46,640 --> 01:39:48,920
Speaker 1: I think we really should have paused more to he

1703
01:39:49,240 --> 01:39:51,360
Speaker 1: was he wanted to cheeseburg and he was horny. Love him.

1704
01:39:52,040 --> 01:39:55,680
Speaker 1: I'll give half a nipple to Hugo Weaving's lips, and

1705
01:39:55,760 --> 01:39:58,519
Speaker 1: I'll give my last nipple to the witch House key sisters.

1706
01:39:59,680 --> 01:40:04,840
Speaker 1: I'm how about you. Well, listen it sounds you know

1707
01:40:05,200 --> 01:40:07,800
Speaker 1: if I come back on here and do the net,

1708
01:40:08,280 --> 01:40:11,920
Speaker 1: and I'm like, if I give the Matrix anything less

1709
01:40:11,960 --> 01:40:14,640
Speaker 1: than five, I'm going to feel like I'm insulting it

1710
01:40:14,720 --> 01:40:16,160
Speaker 1: when I come on here and do the net and

1711
01:40:16,200 --> 01:40:17,599
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't know, like two and a half,

1712
01:40:17,880 --> 01:40:21,160
Speaker 1: you know, Like, so I'm giving it. I'm giving it

1713
01:40:21,240 --> 01:40:23,040
Speaker 1: to full five. I'm giving it to full five. I think,

1714
01:40:23,200 --> 01:40:28,000
Speaker 1: especially for its era, it is groundbreaking and impressive and

1715
01:40:28,800 --> 01:40:31,360
Speaker 1: that it mostly holds up today. And you can like

1716
01:40:31,600 --> 01:40:34,439
Speaker 1: quibble with some of the casting choices. You can quibble with,

1717
01:40:34,680 --> 01:40:38,479
Speaker 1: like it's presentation of transness, etcetera, but like it still

1718
01:40:38,560 --> 01:40:41,559
Speaker 1: holds up in a way that like most other action

1719
01:40:41,640 --> 01:40:43,960
Speaker 1: movies of this era, don't like you think about this

1720
01:40:44,080 --> 01:40:46,240
Speaker 1: came out to say, just a couple of months before

1721
01:40:46,479 --> 01:40:49,639
Speaker 1: UM Star Wars Episode one, and you're just like, those

1722
01:40:49,680 --> 01:40:55,040
Speaker 1: are those movies are from different planets entirely. So I'm

1723
01:40:55,040 --> 01:40:57,360
Speaker 1: going to give a nipple to carry In Moss because

1724
01:40:57,439 --> 01:41:02,240
Speaker 1: she's she's the best. I'll give one to Kianu. Kiano deserves.

1725
01:41:02,439 --> 01:41:04,160
Speaker 1: He only has one nipple right now. He needs to

1726
01:41:04,600 --> 01:41:07,560
Speaker 1: needs to nipples. Yeah, that's good for him. Uh you

1727
01:41:07,640 --> 01:41:09,160
Speaker 1: know what I got. I gotta give one to the

1728
01:41:09,280 --> 01:41:12,760
Speaker 1: Witch House Ki sisters, who are just the best and

1729
01:41:13,360 --> 01:41:15,600
Speaker 1: some of my favorite filmmakers of all time. And you know,

1730
01:41:15,720 --> 01:41:19,479
Speaker 1: I just want to hang out with them so they

1731
01:41:19,520 --> 01:41:23,200
Speaker 1: seem so cool. I want to um give a nipple

1732
01:41:23,280 --> 01:41:29,360
Speaker 1: to Bill Pope's cinematography, which is legitimately groundbreaking, change the world,

1733
01:41:29,880 --> 01:41:31,840
Speaker 1: et cetera. I'm gonna give a I'm going to split

1734
01:41:31,880 --> 01:41:34,120
Speaker 1: my last nipple one into I'm sorry, I'm breaking the

1735
01:41:34,240 --> 01:41:37,679
Speaker 1: roles to get a half nipple to the Bug because

1736
01:41:37,800 --> 01:41:41,000
Speaker 1: we love the book. I'm going to give my other

1737
01:41:41,080 --> 01:41:43,920
Speaker 1: half nipple to producer Joel Silver, not because I actually like,

1738
01:41:44,040 --> 01:41:46,240
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh wow, great Joel Silver, though he did

1739
01:41:46,320 --> 01:41:48,360
Speaker 1: get this movie made when like a lot of producers

1740
01:41:48,360 --> 01:41:50,679
Speaker 1: wouldn't have. But because I like the image of someone

1741
01:41:50,760 --> 01:41:53,080
Speaker 1: like knocking on his door in the middle of the

1742
01:41:53,200 --> 01:41:55,200
Speaker 1: night and he comes and looks down and there's just

1743
01:41:55,320 --> 01:41:58,160
Speaker 1: half a nipple laying on his doorstep. I think I

1744
01:41:58,320 --> 01:42:01,120
Speaker 1: just like that image. So Joel Silver, you get half

1745
01:42:01,120 --> 01:42:05,680
Speaker 1: a nipple. I bet he appreciates it. But yeah, he

1746
01:42:06,080 --> 01:42:07,640
Speaker 1: first made a view it as a threat, but then

1747
01:42:07,680 --> 01:42:09,639
Speaker 1: once he gave him the context he needed, I think

1748
01:42:09,680 --> 01:42:11,680
Speaker 1: he'd come around. He'd be so happy. It's like that

1749
01:42:11,840 --> 01:42:14,680
Speaker 1: part in the Matrix when like Neo is rejecting this

1750
01:42:14,800 --> 01:42:16,840
Speaker 1: whole thing and he's like, I don't believe it. Let

1751
01:42:16,880 --> 01:42:18,320
Speaker 1: me out here, and then he barfs all over the

1752
01:42:18,360 --> 01:42:20,600
Speaker 1: floor and then he collapsed his face first into his

1753
01:42:20,680 --> 01:42:23,840
Speaker 1: own barf. But then like in the next scene, he's like, Okay,

1754
01:42:23,880 --> 01:42:31,360
Speaker 1: I guess it's fine. Perfect the agreeable guy that Emily.

1755
01:42:31,439 --> 01:42:33,720
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us and for being here.

1756
01:42:33,920 --> 01:42:35,880
Speaker 1: Come back for the net, come back for anything you

1757
01:42:35,920 --> 01:42:38,320
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. I'd love to come back. I

1758
01:42:38,360 --> 01:42:42,639
Speaker 1: had a blast. Good. Where can people check out your writing?

1759
01:42:43,040 --> 01:42:46,280
Speaker 1: Follow you on social media? Plug anything you want to plug.

1760
01:42:47,080 --> 01:42:49,760
Speaker 1: I'm on Twitter at twitter dot com, slash Emily V

1761
01:42:49,960 --> 01:42:52,479
Speaker 1: d w um, I get up to all sorts of nonsense.

1762
01:42:52,560 --> 01:42:55,160
Speaker 1: They're actually less because I've mostly locked out of Twitter,

1763
01:42:55,280 --> 01:42:57,120
Speaker 1: but I do tweet every song for the best look

1764
01:42:57,120 --> 01:43:00,920
Speaker 1: at me and yeah, my writing appears vox dot com.

1765
01:43:01,479 --> 01:43:03,519
Speaker 1: I also have a newsletter where I just write some

1766
01:43:03,640 --> 01:43:06,800
Speaker 1: of my weirder ideas. That's Emily vdW dot letter, Drop

1767
01:43:06,880 --> 01:43:11,360
Speaker 1: dot com. I co create Right Show, Run et cetera,

1768
01:43:11,880 --> 01:43:16,519
Speaker 1: occasionally play a whale in the scripted fiction podcast Arden.

1769
01:43:16,600 --> 01:43:19,880
Speaker 1: It is about two women who solve Colt cases and

1770
01:43:20,080 --> 01:43:23,040
Speaker 1: try not to fall in love. Um. It is a comedy,

1771
01:43:23,080 --> 01:43:27,280
Speaker 1: but it's also about my weird drauma. Um so that

1772
01:43:27,560 --> 01:43:31,360
Speaker 1: hooray uh and you can I. I published a book

1773
01:43:31,360 --> 01:43:32,840
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago that I still bring up

1774
01:43:32,880 --> 01:43:35,560
Speaker 1: with Monsters of the Week, complete critical companion to the

1775
01:43:35,680 --> 01:43:39,560
Speaker 1: X Files. You could find it in at various booksellers. Amazing,

1776
01:43:39,920 --> 01:43:43,240
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for coming yet. Truly, you're one

1777
01:43:43,240 --> 01:43:45,080
Speaker 1: of my favorite writers in the world, and I'm so

1778
01:43:45,479 --> 01:43:48,519
Speaker 1: glad that you could be here with us. Thank you

1779
01:43:48,640 --> 01:43:51,599
Speaker 1: so much. I love this show, and um, I'm glad

1780
01:43:51,640 --> 01:43:53,800
Speaker 1: that I could make it and talk about nipples. So

1781
01:43:54,320 --> 01:44:01,080
Speaker 1: amazing come back for the net. I would love to um.

1782
01:44:01,320 --> 01:44:05,840
Speaker 1: You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram. At spectel cast.

1783
01:44:06,120 --> 01:44:10,680
Speaker 1: You can subscribe to our Patreon a k A Matreon

1784
01:44:11,040 --> 01:44:14,080
Speaker 1: at patreon dot com, slash pecktel Cast. You get to

1785
01:44:14,280 --> 01:44:18,000
Speaker 1: bonus episodes every month, plus access to the entire back

1786
01:44:18,200 --> 01:44:22,160
Speaker 1: catalog of over one hundred bonus episodes. And that's all

1787
01:44:22,400 --> 01:44:26,080
Speaker 1: for five dollars a month. We're doing some cursed holiday

1788
01:44:26,160 --> 01:44:31,400
Speaker 1: favorites this month, surprise, and you can get speaking of

1789
01:44:31,640 --> 01:44:35,519
Speaker 1: holidays if you're capitalism NG, you can go to t

1790
01:44:35,680 --> 01:44:38,080
Speaker 1: public dot com slash the pytel cast and pick up

1791
01:44:38,120 --> 01:44:40,880
Speaker 1: some merch or not. We won't know, and it's up

1792
01:44:40,920 --> 01:44:43,840
Speaker 1: to you. And and what's a good way to end

1793
01:44:44,240 --> 01:44:47,559
Speaker 1: this episode? Um? What is? What is neo? Okay? Neo?

1794
01:44:47,600 --> 01:44:50,560
Speaker 1: At the very end, he's just like, Okay, oh, I

1795
01:44:50,640 --> 01:44:53,720
Speaker 1: know you're out there and I'm going to show these

1796
01:44:53,760 --> 01:44:55,840
Speaker 1: people what you don't want them to see. And then

1797
01:44:55,920 --> 01:45:00,160
Speaker 1: he hangs up the phone and it's likely do they're

1798
01:45:00,160 --> 01:45:04,479
Speaker 1: turn Can you add in the rage against the machine

1799
01:45:04,520 --> 01:45:07,160
Speaker 1: at the end of this episode? Yes? How many seconds

1800
01:45:07,200 --> 01:45:09,200
Speaker 1: can you get away with of like an audio clip

1801
01:45:09,280 --> 01:45:12,519
Speaker 1: before you get sued for copyright stuff? We'll tie, We'll

1802
01:45:12,560 --> 01:45:16,439
Speaker 1: take it off Mike who knows uh all right? Click

1803
01:45:17,000 --> 01:45:54,040
Speaker 1: click on