1 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newtsworld. I've been in love with 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 1: animals all my life, and I enjoy going to zoos 3 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: all over the world. In fact, one of my original 4 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: childhood goals was to be a zoo director. I've been 5 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: fortunate enough to visit some of the most incredible zoos 6 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: as well as go on safari in Africa. I confess 7 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:24,479 Speaker 1: that before I decided to on a public service I 8 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: was going to be either a zoo director or a 9 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: vertebrate paleontologist. But I ended up just trying to work 10 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 1: on the country's problems. But my guest today considered a 11 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: career in public service. We almost swapped and then he 12 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:39,919 Speaker 1: became a zoo director. But he's much more than that. 13 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: We were fortunate enough to meet years ago when doctor 14 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 1: Terry Mapel became President and CEO of Zoo Atlanta in 15 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty four under Mayor Andrew Young. He then went 16 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: on to lead the Palm Beach Zoo. At the time 17 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: doctor Mapel took over Zoo Atlanta in nineteen eighty four, 18 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: the zoo had become quote a national disgrace following this 19 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:06,399 Speaker 1: mysterious death of an elephant uncovered in a shallow grave. 20 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: In North Carolina. Twinkles for the Elephant became the poster 21 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:14,040 Speaker 1: packet ERM for zoo mismanagement, and it was then that 22 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 1: Mary Young turned to doctor Maple. What doctor Maple was 23 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 1: able to do with Zoo Atlanta was nothing short of remarkable. 24 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: He's the author of fourteen books, including one I co 25 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: authored with him, entitled A Contract with the Earth. He 26 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 1: has a new book he's working on now, coming out 27 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:34,320 Speaker 1: this September, which describes the incredible story of Willie B. 28 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: It's entitled Atlanta's Iconic Ape, The Life of Willie B. 29 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: I'm pleased to welcome my guest, doctor Terry Maple. Terry, 30 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: thank you for joining me. I wanted to do this 31 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: episode because I wanted to emphasize how important I think 32 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: zoos are for society and frankly, make the case of 33 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: why zoos matter. You have been one of the leading 34 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: advocates of the importance of zoos, both as a place 35 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: that families go to, as a place that practices conservation, 36 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 1: and as a center of education. Could you talk to 37 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:18,679 Speaker 1: us from it or two about the degree to which 38 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: zoos really really matter. Well, their educational function is tremendous. 39 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: If the school systems take advantage of it. You have 40 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: to work together with them to develop a curriculum at 41 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: work about a visit to the zoo. It's just full 42 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: of learning ups. At the same time, it's a conservation 43 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:44,519 Speaker 1: organization now more than ever before. Zoos are not only 44 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: breeding in dangerous species and growing their populations and no 45 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: longer taking animals out of a while, but they are 46 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 1: trying to restore a habitat, trying to protect populations in 47 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 1: the wild, and they're becoming partners with conservation organizations, spending 48 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: lots and lots of money to help, and they are 49 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: also centers of science. We now have this thing called 50 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: one medicine. One medicine is the combination of animal and 51 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 1: human medicine because, as we have learned sadly, these viruses 52 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: don't stay on one host. They frequently jump, especially when 53 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: you destroy the population that harbored the virus. It then 54 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: looks for a place to jump in. That place is 55 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: often humanity. This is how we believe COVID that where 56 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: it is anti virus the same there are many of 57 00:03:54,320 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: viruses that like Ebola, which we're in Africa for years 58 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: and years attacking animals and now attacking people. So we're 59 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: all connected, and it's important that zoos and universities talk 60 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: to each other to work together continue to discover what 61 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: it is about the world we need to know. But 62 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: there's one other use of zoos that people don't completely 63 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 1: understand yet, and that is that zoos are that naturalistic 64 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:38,920 Speaker 1: wildlife experience that we crave, particularly those of us who 65 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 1: live in an urban environment. If you're an urban kid, 66 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: you long to get out into the nature, and zoos 67 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 1: our nature. We feel better when we can actually revitalize 68 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: and restore our sense of well being when we go 69 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: to a place like that. So zoos need to cater 70 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: to this feeling, and that's how architects began to develop 71 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 1: this so called soft architecture and landscape immersion, building facilities 72 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 1: that made you feel more and more like you've are 73 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: in nature. You don't feel good when you go in 74 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 1: and feel like you're in Brison. That's what zoos used 75 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: to be like. Today's zoos are inspiring plazes because they 76 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: mimic nature, and they also attract a surprisingly large number 77 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: of people they do. It's going to be interesting now 78 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: that we've had this viral experience because zoos are having 79 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 1: to reinvent themselves. Every public place is having to revent itself. 80 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: But zoos have the unique advantage of their outdoor experiences, 81 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: so they're safe or just by that alone. But we're 82 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: going to have to make do with social distancing and 83 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: kind of the standards we didn't have before. We may 84 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: not be able to put people into a giant auditorium 85 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: shoulder to shoulder like we used to do. Disney's probably 86 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: going to lead the way on this, but we'll work 87 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: with all the zoos in the America and the world 88 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: to reinvent standards that will fit the problems of the day. 89 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 1: But the number one advantage we have is we are 90 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: in natural outdoor experiences, and people feel better just going 91 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 1: to the zoo. And the more we understand how people 92 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: behave and how they use these spaces, the better those 93 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:55,239 Speaker 1: spaces are going to be. So, if you don't mind, 94 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:57,559 Speaker 1: I would like to go back to your childhood growing 95 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: up in southern California. Tell me what helped shape you 96 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,719 Speaker 1: back then. Well, I was born in La East, La, 97 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: which is a very dangerous place. They didn't live there long. 98 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: My parents moved me to San Diego, which is wonderful. 99 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: We were living on the outskirts of San Diego, little 100 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: town called Chila Vista, seven miles from the Mexican border, 101 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: by the way, and my mother is half his spanning, 102 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 1: so I feel like it's my territory down there. Problem is, 103 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: I never learned spanning. I just learned how to eat 104 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: Mexican food. It was my mother was very good at. 105 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: But it was a wonderful place to grow up, and 106 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: it was kind of a wild place. There was hills 107 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 1: and features, and it was a place up in the 108 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: hills called Fossil Canyon, which all the little kids knew 109 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: about and we used to go up there all the 110 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: time and big fossils. But we didn't know is that 111 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,239 Speaker 1: it turned out to be one of the biggest fossil 112 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: finds in the to southern California. And this happened years 113 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: later on let me a clipping about Fossil Canyon. They 114 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: were developing it for homes and when they found the 115 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: fossils they had to go in here and protect them. Well, 116 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: I always thought the little kids should have gotten good 117 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: at discovering that place. Didn't happen away, but we never 118 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: the last We were quite proud to know it. So 119 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: that was a big influence on my life because I 120 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: felt like I was an explorer. I always wanted to 121 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: be an explorer. So going to the zoo, which is 122 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: our principal activity, is a family My father was not wealthy, 123 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: so we couldn't travel. Going to LA it was about 124 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: as far as we ever got. But I didn't like LA, 125 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: but going to the zoo was a whole lot better. 126 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: We went to the zoo all the time when he 127 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 1: was a marvelous place, very inspirational for a little boy, 128 00:08:54,559 --> 00:09:01,079 Speaker 1: alimentable place to develop his own curiosity. Even today is 129 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: just I think amazing. When you were there, it was 130 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 1: still basically only the downtown Zoo and they did not 131 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: add the wild Animal Park until later on in your life. 132 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: Is that right? That's right. What happened is a place 133 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: called Lion Country. Safari arrived in Los Angeles and there 134 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: were seven of these Safari parks built, one of them 135 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: in Georgia and Atlanta. About the one in LA was 136 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 1: wildly popular. It was based on the idea that you 137 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: get in your car and you drive around and you 138 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,479 Speaker 1: see the animals as if you were on a real safari. 139 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: And they had as many as a one hundred lions 140 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: that par example, which was quite remarkable, and when San 141 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 1: Diego started losing attendance, they started thinking, maybe we need 142 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 1: one of these things, but they didn't want to do 143 00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 1: it the same way. They built a Safari experience that 144 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: was a walking experience. They did build a little train 145 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: that went around the outside, but primarily it was walking 146 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 1: around in a more naturalistic place. Nevertheless, that facility, Untold 147 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: lost money for ten years before it began to turn 148 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 1: a profit. It was in the northernmost part of San Diego, 149 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: Escondido long ways to get to. But as San Diego grew, 150 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 1: and as the LA grew south, more and more homes 151 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 1: were being built, more and more people were moving there, 152 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: and pretty soon Escandido wasn't as far Aloua as it 153 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:45,679 Speaker 1: used to be. So the park began to succeed. But 154 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: from the beginning it was an artistic success. It was 155 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: an entertainment success. It was a wonderful experience, and a 156 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: lot of zoos around the country began to try to 157 00:10:55,920 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: emulate it. But I think the Wild Animal Park alcohol 158 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 1: the Safari Park is believe one of the extraordinary zoo 159 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: experiences you'll ever have. They had a program called Roar 160 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: and Snore where you could go and stay out and 161 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 1: sleep in a tent. I remember going years ago, and 162 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: I thought it was such a perfectly California experience. You 163 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:25,680 Speaker 1: had white table claws, you had China, you had California wines. 164 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: I mean, you had somebody from the zoo give you 165 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 1: a chat in the evening, you went to bed early, 166 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: and then you were awakened by the lions and other 167 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: animals starting around three in the morning. And it was 168 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: brilliant showmanship on the part of the San Diego Zoo 169 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: and Close and I were very fortunate to have a 170 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:47,679 Speaker 1: twenty three day trip in Africa with the curator of birds, 171 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: who was extraordinarily knowledgeable, and it was great fun. You 172 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:54,839 Speaker 1: didn't stay at the zoo, you didn't become a zookeeper. 173 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: You took that love of animals and you went off 174 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 1: to college. Well it's a funny thing. Enjoyed the zoo. 175 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 1: I enjoyed animals, but I never thought you could make 176 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 1: a living doing that, And nobody ever told me you 177 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: could actually get faith for this. So I was at 178 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: that time becoming politically aware. San Diego is a conservative town. 179 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: I wanted to be involved in some kind of public service, 180 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: but I didn't want traditional politics. I was student by 181 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 1: the president in high school, and I already had enough 182 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: misery from that to ever imagine running for office. But 183 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: I thought, you know, I'd like to be a statesman. 184 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,959 Speaker 1: I'd like to be in the foreign service. I get 185 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: to travel and be the explorer I wanted to be, 186 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 1: and I get to serve my country, and this would 187 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:53,679 Speaker 1: be a good thing to do. So I went to 188 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 1: college thinking that was going to be my career. I 189 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: wanted to be an ambassador. But along the way, the 190 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:06,959 Speaker 1: Vietnam War happened, and this shook me up. I just 191 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 1: couldn't understand why so many of my peers were dying, 192 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 1: and almost for no very good reason. Certainly, we students 193 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 1: questioned it. We had teach ins, and we talked about 194 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: it incessantly. I began to think, you know, there's got 195 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: to be some answers somewhere in this academia that I'm 196 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: living in right now. So I started looking at sociology 197 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 1: and political science and finally discovered psychology. And then, having 198 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 1: studied psychology, I discovered ethology, which is a sort of 199 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 1: a sub branch of psychology and biology. And I read 200 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 1: a book by Comrade Lorenz called on Aggression. That book 201 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: turned me around. It made me believe that I could 202 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 1: understand why men fight if I understood why animals fuck. 203 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 1: And that took me down the road and beginning to 204 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: see myself as an academic involved in trying to understand 205 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: man's inhumanity to man. So you'd think I might have 206 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: stopped there. I did my first book, which was a 207 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 1: reader on human aggression, but I was still in graduate school. 208 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: But I started getting so interested in the animals that 209 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: I realized that they were getting in humane treatment too, 210 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: and I began to get sidetracked more and more into 211 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: the animals themselves, and ultimately I became an ambassador for wildlife. 212 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: So it turned up you always end up doing what 213 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: you're supposed to do. I was supposed to represent somebody, 214 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: you ended up representing wildlife. But you got into that 215 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: in part at the University California, Davis, which is one 216 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: of the great agricultural schools in the world, and at 217 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: that point in your life, you're looking at primate behavior 218 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: and lessons that we can learn as humans from watching 219 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: how primates interact. Lawrence did not study primates. Once I 220 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: got into the issue of studying animals. I just had 221 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: to find the animals that would make sense for me. 222 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 1: Started with monkeys, baboons. I visited Africa, visited a farmer student, 223 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: and that influenced me. Going to Africa really opened my eyes, 224 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 1: and I began to see that when I had the 225 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: opportunity to work at Emory University, I would be able 226 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 1: to study the largest collection of great apes in the world. 227 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: Your keys. I med Center had a guerrillas, orangatans and 228 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: chimps in great numbers, and they were respected, well known 229 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 1: for what they were doing. But when I got there 230 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: and I saw the facilities, they were terrible. They were 231 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: not enlightened facilities like we had in the San Diego Zoo. 232 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: They were very ugly cages, and I didn't think the 233 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: animals could possibly be thriving under those conditions. So I 234 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: almost immediately began to think my calling was probably going 235 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: to be to improve, if not eliminate, these terrible examples 236 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: of what my mentor Robert Summer, and he was studying prisons, 237 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: mental hospitals, and zoos, and he wrote a book called 238 00:16:55,120 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 1: Tight Spaces that was very influential in my thinking, and 239 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: I realized that these things could change. But I also 240 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: realized that it wasn't going to happen just because of 241 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:12,199 Speaker 1: an idea. That's when I began to draw upon my 242 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: storehouse of people's skills. And I had that probably more 243 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: than any other skill, was my ability to work for people, 244 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 1: to lead people, and to get along with people. It's 245 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,159 Speaker 1: interesting that that's what the great Bell Benchually, the first 246 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:35,879 Speaker 1: woman zoo director at San Diego, said about her role there. 247 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: When she was made director, she had been executive second 248 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 1: there many years, and the founder of the zoo said 249 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:50,919 Speaker 1: to her, well, Bell, I'm retiring. It's time for you 250 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 1: to take over. You might as well be the director. 251 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:59,440 Speaker 1: You're running everything anyway, and so she took over to 252 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 1: later commented that she had no zoological skills, no special 253 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: ability or on a zoo, but what she had was 254 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,959 Speaker 1: people skills. She could get along with people, she can 255 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 1: get people involved, she could move everybody in the right 256 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: direction on She built a powerhouse too, and deserves a 257 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 1: lot of credit for it. This ability to recruit good people, 258 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: get them focused on a particular direction, and have them 259 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 1: operate together, there's a really rare skill among humans. So 260 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: funny thing I was always good at that when I 261 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: was in the sixth grade, my teacher took me aside 262 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 1: at school camp and he said to me, this is 263 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: a very humbling conversation. He said, Derek, you're not the 264 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: biggest boy. You're not an athlete of any consequence. You're 265 00:18:56,119 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: not mean or strong, or you're not a warrior. You're 266 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 1: a leader. He said, somehow you leave these kids, they 267 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:12,160 Speaker 1: follow you, and you've got a skill that you've got 268 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 1: to take advantage of your life. And he wanted me 269 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 1: to know that there was something special. And I thought 270 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 1: about this over the years because it was just a 271 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 1: natural thing. Also, when I began to play sports, I 272 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 1: had an underdog personality. I just loved getting in there 273 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 1: with a bunch of guys that were misfits. And I 274 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,160 Speaker 1: always picked teams because of cohesion, and they were picked 275 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: them because you know the skills of the guys. So 276 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: I take my guys and we would beat good teams 277 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: all the time. It was just a matter of working 278 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: together and like you said, being a team, and also 279 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 1: just being fearless, never believing that you can't do it. 280 00:19:56,040 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: And my father, who was a laborer, I always told 281 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,360 Speaker 1: my brother and he did not have a high school education, 282 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: but he said your kids. You can be whatever you 283 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 1: want to be, but you better be good at it 284 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:14,159 Speaker 1: or I'm not going to be happy. My older brother 285 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 1: spent fifty years at the University of California, San Diego 286 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: in the Department of Physics. He's a member of the 287 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: National Academy of Sciences. The most brillant, wonderful role model 288 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: a boy could ever had. And you know, it just 289 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 1: happened that all this stuff came together. But I always 290 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:39,439 Speaker 1: remember that it started in kind of simple ways and 291 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,919 Speaker 1: evolved and morphed and became what it was, and it 292 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: was a remarkable experience. I was still writing and mentoring 293 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 1: and working with He was mighty fun when I was 294 00:20:52,840 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: really in the act. You go from UC Davis, you 295 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: end up first at Emory and then at Georgia Tech. 296 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 1: And my sense was that you were doing very well 297 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 1: at Tech and had been recognized as an academic, and 298 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 1: suddenly you get a call from the city of Atlanta 299 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 1: to apply a totally different set of skills, and you 300 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 1: do it as though you were born to it. You 301 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: stepped in and from day one you began to turn 302 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: the zoo around, turn it into a great research center, 303 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: a terrific urban Zoo and totally reclaimed its legitimacy in 304 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,399 Speaker 1: terms of accreditation. I mean, were all those just latent 305 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,680 Speaker 1: skills that were waiting to be called upon? Well they were, 306 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 1: but also there were some planning involved. But when I 307 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: first got into academia, I wasn't sure whether this is 308 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: the place I wanted to spend my career. After three 309 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: years at Emory, I remember Dean Palms. You may remember him. 310 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:15,880 Speaker 1: He became president of Georgia State. He told us all 311 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 1: when we came in our first year, we were all 312 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 1: hand picked top people in the country, and he said, 313 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: ladies and gentlemen, I know you're glad to be here, 314 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: but I wanted to tell you your chances of getting 315 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 1: tenure here are speming Nune. They adopted the Harvard model. 316 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: It was bring in great people for three or four years, 317 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: and then they get rid of and bring in more 318 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 1: great people. That way, they didn't have to pay him 319 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: a lot of money, so getting tenure was indeed very difficult. 320 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,160 Speaker 1: So I started thinking, well, yeah, I better have something 321 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 1: in my back pocket. Now. I had already discovered zeus 322 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 1: and was beginning to become known as the guy who 323 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: has answers about apes. So I made a deal to 324 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 1: go on sabbatical leave. This is after I left the 325 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: emery with the tech. I was only a tech two 326 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: years and I was going on a sabbatical because Ron Foreman, 327 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:14,480 Speaker 1: the young director done there, wonderful guy, was a great mentor. 328 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:17,880 Speaker 1: He needed a primatologist and he wanted me to come 329 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: down and said, look, you come back to being my 330 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: deputy director introm. You don't have to stay. I believe 331 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,199 Speaker 1: your acondemic career. Just come down and do this. I 332 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 1: need your help. And he said you'll learn something too, 333 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,640 Speaker 1: So I thought, you know, I will learn a great 334 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 1: deal open house. He was a run if I go 335 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 1: work with this, And indeed it was the smartest thing 336 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,679 Speaker 1: I ever did, because I came back with knowledge about 337 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 1: running a zoo that I didn't have before. So when 338 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,640 Speaker 1: Andrew Young asked me to come into the room with 339 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: all the other experts, I knew more about it than 340 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:58,199 Speaker 1: anybody else, even though when I took the job, I 341 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 1: was the least experienced to director in the entire world. 342 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 1: When may Are Young talked to you, did you have 343 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:10,159 Speaker 1: a vision of what you wanted to carry this decrepit, 344 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: almost unaccredited institution where you wanted it to go and 345 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: what you dreamed it could become. The day I moved 346 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: to Atlanta in nineteen seventy five and I went to 347 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 1: see the zoo, I knew immediately that this has some 348 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:33,360 Speaker 1: advantages that just might make it great someday if they 349 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: could get all their ducks in a row. And that 350 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,199 Speaker 1: advantage was a very simple thing. It was the major 351 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:48,400 Speaker 1: universities surrounding Atlanta, Georgia, Georgia State, Emory, and then three 352 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: veterinary schools within an hour, Auburn, Taskeke, and University of Georgia. 353 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 1: And I didn't know too many city zoos that had 354 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,399 Speaker 1: that advantage. But you had to turn it from being 355 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:08,399 Speaker 1: a not very important attraction to being a fine zoological 356 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 1: facility with science and conservation education at its route. And 357 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: it wasn't that. Then they had to figure out, this 358 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:23,360 Speaker 1: is where we wanted to go. But I knew if 359 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 1: we could turn it, we were a San Diego zoo 360 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 1: in the making, not as big, but in many ways 361 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 1: as good. And along behald I was given the opportunity 362 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,880 Speaker 1: to take it in that direction because when they gave 363 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 1: me the zoo to run, it was a tabular rosso 364 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 1: and they would have done anything to support me if 365 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 1: I had just stopped the bleeding. That's what I was 366 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,920 Speaker 1: really hired to do. But I did a lot better 367 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: than that. I surprised them all. You look at a 368 00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 1: place like Memphis or Saint Louis or lots of city's 369 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,200 Speaker 1: approximately in the Atlanta league. Why did you think Atlanta 370 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 1: had some unique advantages? Well, several things. First of all, 371 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 1: they were all the primates because it had the Primate 372 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:17,880 Speaker 1: Center and at all the institutions that had distended every university. 373 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 1: I just mentioned primatologist of some note, dye Wanba over 374 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 1: at Georgia State. You're a great figure in the business. 375 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: And by the way, a man who worked at the 376 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,399 Speaker 1: San Diego Zoo one time. There were many others and 377 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: they were all there a guide, this young primatologist, and 378 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 1: there was a sense of inspiration. But it's also the 379 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 1: fact that Atlanta was beginning to be the hot city 380 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: in the South. It was entrepreneurial to a fault, and 381 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: there were people like that Durner that thought they could 382 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: do anything. So when you're surrounded by people like that, 383 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 1: and of course you know, I met this guy named 384 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: new Gingrich and first thing you told me is I'm 385 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 1: going to be speaking of the house someday And I thought, 386 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 1: you know, I didn't say it to you at the time, 387 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 1: but I thought, good god, how is that ever gonna happen? Yeah, 388 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 1: well it took It took me longer than it took you. 389 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,359 Speaker 1: You thought big, and I mean people who think big. 390 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 1: I knew that if I thought big enough and I 391 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 1: was able to work for it and do the right things, 392 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 1: we'd get it, and that we did. So, I mean, 393 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 1: one of your first big breakthroughs was convincing the Ford 394 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: Motor Company to provide a remarkable facility. How did you 395 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: pull that off? Well, it's interesting because Board had had 396 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 1: a plant in Atlanta for seventy five years, but their 397 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: marketers told them nobody knew it. Nobody really knew that 398 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:55,120 Speaker 1: Board had contributed anything in the city. So their marketers 399 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 1: were trying to uplift the image of Ford Motor Company. 400 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: So they were shopping their involvement to try to fix 401 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: something or advance something that would be noticed. But it 402 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,120 Speaker 1: came around and they looked at the zoo asked me 403 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 1: to tell them what I was doing there that might 404 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 1: be remarkable. Now, I said to him, you know, I've 405 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 1: got an idea for you. We're going to build the 406 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 1: best gorilla exhibit in the entire world, and we're starting 407 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: with one gorilla. And I said, I know we can 408 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 1: do this if we had the support for community, but 409 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,919 Speaker 1: we're going to need funding, and if we had a 410 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 1: partner like Forward, it would make it so much easier. 411 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 1: So having sketched out division to them, they went back 412 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: to the drawing board and thought about it and decided, 413 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: you know, let's take that zoo on. Let's make that 414 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: our project. They came back. But I always remember when 415 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: Jim Donaldson, who was one of their marketing guys, gave 416 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: me the first check or fifty thousand. He whispered in 417 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: my ear as I was about to walk out and 418 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: give a speech. He said, not Darry yet, sort of 419 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 1: a Scottish brogue. Now Darry better not be number two. 420 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 1: And they always told me this is another thing I learned. 421 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 1: They weren't the biggest automaker in the world, but they 422 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: thought they were the best. So from the very beginning 423 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:33,479 Speaker 1: I used to preach to my staff, you don't have 424 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: to be big to be great, you only have to 425 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: be great. And to me, being great with being smart, 426 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: having smart people, solving problems, doing things the right way, 427 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 1: and doing things far beyond the norm. And we learned 428 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: that from organizations like board. Well, you had a remarkable 429 00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 1: access to gorillas that nobody else could really compete. How 430 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 1: does peak how many total grillas were in the exhibit, Well, 431 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 1: at the time we were trying to get guerrillas, we 432 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: just had Willie Bee. But we were going to try 433 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 1: to get three breeding groups, and we ended up getting 434 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: as ten or eleven guerrillas about a half a days 435 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: in the rangutans, and from the very day we put 436 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 1: them outside in the new facility, they began to breed. 437 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 1: So it was very quickly becoming what I had envisioned 438 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 1: as a population groups those that would ever exhibited a 439 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 1: population before, they'd exhibit at most a group, maybe two groups, 440 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 1: but never a population many groups. We built five habitats, 441 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: and one of them was a single small habitat right 442 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 1: in the middle for Willie Be. Because we had no 443 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: idea whether Willie B was going to ever be anything 444 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: but a solitary girl, but we had a thought that 445 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,719 Speaker 1: would give him a chance. By the way, I just 446 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 1: wrote a book about Willie B. That book is going 447 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: to be published probably in August, and as the whole story, 448 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 1: Willie B. Became the great social girrill, the great parent 449 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: five offspring, and everybody thought he was a dud, but 450 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 1: he turned out to be the most wonderful social grill. 451 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 1: How many years had he been in isolation? So he 452 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 1: was born in Africa and captured there. He had been 453 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 1: at the zoo since nineteen fifty nine, and then it 454 00:31:56,320 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: took another eleven twelve years to build the exhibit. So 455 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: he was a singleton guerrilla all that time, about twenty 456 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 1: seven years. And later on when he became a social grilla, 457 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 1: you would have never imagined that animal could have ever 458 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: been normal, because the theoreticians, people like Harlowe, had discovered 459 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 1: that when you were socially deprived or isolated long enough, 460 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: you developed behaviors that made it impossible for you to 461 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: be normal. But he had skills. Whether his mother and 462 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 1: the group with his mother at somehow inoculated him with 463 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 1: enough awareness, or whether it was the early experience with 464 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 1: his keepers, I don't know what happened to make that 465 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: guerrilla a social guerrilla, but by god, when he saw 466 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 1: other guerrillas, he warmed up to him. And I remember 467 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: the first day he calculated one of the biggest days 468 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 1: of my life. I just couldn't believe we'd succeeded. How 469 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 1: long did that take from the time he met his 470 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 1: first gorilla to being intimate just a couple of months. Huh. 471 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 1: He was able to break through the decades of isolation 472 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: pretty quickly. Well, that's right. I don't think he really 473 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,239 Speaker 1: knew what to do, but the females did. And the 474 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 1: females sort of sidled out. They liked him. Every one 475 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: of those females of that zoo that came over Rys 476 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: liked will He be based to come up to the 477 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 1: edge of their enclosures looking at him, and we all 478 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 1: knew that he was attracted. And they had silverback males 479 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 1: in the group, but they'd rather be with Willie. So 480 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: when we finally put a group together for Willie Boy, 481 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 1: I mean, he had a harem like unbelievable, and they 482 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,720 Speaker 1: all liked him so much, and the little kids liked 483 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 1: him when they played on him and he take food 484 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 1: from it. He was amazing. That's the story I wrote, 485 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 1: was how he had transformed himself and gave the end credit. 486 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 1: That book will be out this summer. Yeah, it'll be 487 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 1: out probably August. One of the books you introduced me 488 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: to was Friends Dawall's Chimpanzee Politics, which opens with a 489 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:27,280 Speaker 1: male gorilla who had been bullying these two females until 490 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 1: they decided to form a team, and then he had 491 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:31,680 Speaker 1: to be rescued by the keepers because they were going 492 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 1: to kill him if they didn't get him out of 493 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:38,000 Speaker 1: the way. As a practicing politician, I found Dawall's book 494 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: on chimpanzee politics just amazingly helpful and a reminder of 495 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 1: why it's worthwhile, I think for people to always have 496 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 1: an opening to the world of wild animals and the 497 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:55,319 Speaker 1: world of systems that are beyond concrete and beyond what 498 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 1: we live in every single day. And I think, if 499 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 1: I remember correctly, you actually produced me to Franz at 500 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 1: one point we had a good chat. Yeah, so you're 501 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,800 Speaker 1: remarkable man. He came down and gave us a speech 502 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 1: here for our first Charles Darwin Birthday lecture that I 503 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 1: set up at the University of North Florida, and it 504 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,319 Speaker 1: was a brilliant speech. He is a remarkable guy. I 505 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 1: met him when he was a graduate student in the 506 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: Holland and I was very impressed with him. Of course, 507 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:34,240 Speaker 1: he became such a great prolific writer. But it is true, 508 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 1: if you know primatology, you understand human behavior much better 509 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 1: than most people. For example, what happens when a leader falls, 510 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 1: Chaos ensues. It always does, and sometimes when this happens 511 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 1: in humanity, people are surprised. But I'm always leaning back 512 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 1: and saying, well, I could have predicted that, and the 513 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 1: things that you said. Coalitions and things that happened with 514 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: that primates. They're predictors of what we do. We're a 515 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 1: lot like them. But in a way I could just 516 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 1: explore this with you for a minute, because you're so 517 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 1: amazingly knowledgeable about it. There are significant differences between gorillas, chimpanzees, gibbons, 518 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 1: orangutans and how they interacted and how they sort of 519 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 1: keep score with life. I mean, so in a sense, 520 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,800 Speaker 1: you can learn something from each one of them. Although 521 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: I would guess that we're probably more like chimpanzees and 522 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: gorillas than we are like orangutans and gibbons. That's my 523 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:54,359 Speaker 1: highly unprofessional observation. Well, certainly there's no singular I mean 524 00:36:54,640 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 1: model that answers every question, but genetically more similar to 525 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:09,320 Speaker 1: chimpanzees than any other species. Gorillas are posts, Bonobos are close, 526 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:15,399 Speaker 1: orangutans a little more distant, but they all have very 527 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:21,360 Speaker 1: big brains, but they have different social systems. The gorilla 528 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 1: lives in family groups, chimpanzee lives in large aggregations. Orangutans 529 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:34,280 Speaker 1: are semi solitary. Gibbons and sea amongs the so lesser 530 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,399 Speaker 1: apes are monogamous. They are one of the very few 531 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:43,080 Speaker 1: primates that's truly monogamous. So all of these things are 532 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 1: out there telling us that somehow we evolved with a 533 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:53,920 Speaker 1: little bit different way of behaving, but they were pressures 534 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 1: that made us who we are in the same way 535 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:03,239 Speaker 1: they were. They evolved, and in many ways, the big 536 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:08,480 Speaker 1: brain is what really separates humans from all the other primates, 537 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 1: and physiologists have determined that the human brain shouldn't be 538 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 1: as big as it is. If you look at the 539 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:21,960 Speaker 1: primates in some kind of phylogenetic order, they line up 540 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:27,040 Speaker 1: as a beautiful regression line until you get the humans, 541 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:32,239 Speaker 1: and then it jumps up. Something happened with humans, and 542 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,840 Speaker 1: won't speculate on what that is, but it might be 543 00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:40,920 Speaker 1: it has something to do with religion. We're certainly different 544 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 1: in that reason, of course, and I had a tiny 545 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 1: taste of your life. A few years back. We went 546 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 1: to Rwanda and went up to about nine thousand feet 547 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 1: on the mountain that Jane FOSSi had been on and 548 00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:59,920 Speaker 1: actually got to see a fairly large family of guerrillas. 549 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 1: And when you're out there in the wild, it is 550 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 1: amazing just the impact psychologically that they have, and also 551 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:13,120 Speaker 1: how relatively unaggressive they are if you don't get too 552 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,839 Speaker 1: close to him. I mean, they don't see you as 553 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,400 Speaker 1: a threatened They don't particularly want to go out and 554 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:21,439 Speaker 1: threaten you. Well, it's sorry to believe that people used 555 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:26,959 Speaker 1: to think that they were very dangerous creatures that had 556 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:32,719 Speaker 1: to be hunted and feared. Gargantia the girl who was 557 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 1: an example of that King Gong, But nothing could be 558 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:38,919 Speaker 1: further from the truth. When you go and see real 559 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:43,120 Speaker 1: guerrillas now, they will fight, it will defend themselves if 560 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 1: they need to. The cellar back mail is very impressive. 561 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:53,000 Speaker 1: But when they're there, in that little group, that's the 562 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,799 Speaker 1: most peaceful thing you'll ever see. I'm glad you had 563 00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:00,640 Speaker 1: that privilege, because it really is a privilege. Set among 564 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 1: mountain grouls and enjoy their company. You know. I'm very impressed. Cherry. 565 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:21,160 Speaker 1: I don't know if you're a range of experience, but 566 00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,520 Speaker 1: I've been in zoos in a number of countries and 567 00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:30,360 Speaker 1: consistently they are a magnet for families with young children 568 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,480 Speaker 1: and it's just astonishing. You know, you'll see people with 569 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:38,400 Speaker 1: babies and baby carriages or in strollers, and it's clear 570 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:40,880 Speaker 1: that going to the zoo is one of the things 571 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,000 Speaker 1: that they do regularly and that they get something out 572 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,600 Speaker 1: of just the experience of being in that kind of 573 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 1: an environment. Yeah, families, there are a number one target mark. 574 00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:57,800 Speaker 1: At the same time, those zoos are becoming more implicit, 575 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:03,600 Speaker 1: there began to reach out to all populations. There are 576 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:06,440 Speaker 1: more and more young people who don't want to have children, 577 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:10,319 Speaker 1: I'm sorry to say, and they need places to go 578 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:15,480 Speaker 1: as well. So we are beginning to understand the diversity 579 00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:20,799 Speaker 1: of humans with all their different needs and interests and 580 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:28,799 Speaker 1: tendencies they need zoos to I've seen zoos doing remarkable 581 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:36,360 Speaker 1: things to cater to all segments of society, and particularly 582 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:41,920 Speaker 1: the minority communities, which have not been the target of 583 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:47,960 Speaker 1: zoos in the past, in part because zoos were attempting 584 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:54,719 Speaker 1: to build strong financial connections with these communities. So They 585 00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:58,560 Speaker 1: saw the wealthier suburbs as the place to raise money 586 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:04,239 Speaker 1: and more time attending to those places. This got Zoo 587 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,879 Speaker 1: the zoo in Atlanta in trouble. And by the way, 588 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:13,040 Speaker 1: just a small technical detail, the Zoological Society never got 589 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:18,239 Speaker 1: the zoo. They wanted it, but because they were well, 590 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:25,120 Speaker 1: lily white and not diverse. The mayor Young and the 591 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:31,360 Speaker 1: others in the city that decided to change things decided 592 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:35,960 Speaker 1: to build a new board. And this board is one 593 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:40,239 Speaker 1: of the things that made Atlanta unique. The society stayed 594 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:45,839 Speaker 1: as a support group and they were very important, But 595 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:50,160 Speaker 1: the wisdom of our board was it was gender balanced, 596 00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:56,520 Speaker 1: it was balanced for ethnicity. You know in Atlanta it's 597 00:42:56,560 --> 00:43:00,520 Speaker 1: primarily black. White was the issue then, and I think 598 00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:05,200 Speaker 1: probably one of the first nonprofits in Atlanta that was 599 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:09,880 Speaker 1: built that way. And at the same time, the city said, 600 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:16,160 Speaker 1: we're giving this to the private business sectors. We're not 601 00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:19,760 Speaker 1: going to run the zoo anymore, but we will accept 602 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 1: the public private partnership down the line, when you need bonding, 603 00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,200 Speaker 1: we'll be there for you, but we're not going to 604 00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:29,160 Speaker 1: take the credit and we're not going to take the 605 00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:33,719 Speaker 1: blame or what happens to anymore. It's up to you, 606 00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:36,680 Speaker 1: Bob Holder, and some of these business people that took over. 607 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:43,800 Speaker 1: So the private sector, the society, and the business community 608 00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:49,200 Speaker 1: they stepped up. But it was a remarkable partnership. I 609 00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,200 Speaker 1: talk about it a lot in my new book. It's 610 00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:58,880 Speaker 1: kind of amazing that the corporate, government and academic communities 611 00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:03,319 Speaker 1: came together in this thing and found common ground and 612 00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:06,640 Speaker 1: new I think you know, as we've talked about this, 613 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:12,320 Speaker 1: zoo Lana was the first zoo and Azya to privatize, 614 00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:17,040 Speaker 1: and that trend has now spread all over the country. 615 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:22,319 Speaker 1: Most news of some kind of public private partnership. Very 616 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,799 Speaker 1: few of them are run by government alone. When you're 617 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,680 Speaker 1: an enormous pioneer. In fact, you have written extensively, and 618 00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,600 Speaker 1: on our show page, we're going to list your current 619 00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:36,719 Speaker 1: books and we're also going to relist your upcoming book 620 00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:39,400 Speaker 1: on Willie b so people be able to get it in. 621 00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:42,880 Speaker 1: I hope sometimes we can come back together again as 622 00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,680 Speaker 1: old friends. I want to get you just to talk 623 00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:48,239 Speaker 1: about animals. I mean, I love animals. I think we 624 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:50,319 Speaker 1: have a lot of folks who love animals, and you 625 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,799 Speaker 1: have some amazing stories and a depth of knowledge that's 626 00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,319 Speaker 1: pretty remarkable and you were a great citizen, both for 627 00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:01,799 Speaker 1: the country and frankly for the wildlife that we have 628 00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:05,879 Speaker 1: to have a positive strategy of trying to sustain. So Terry, 629 00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:08,360 Speaker 1: I want to thank you. This has been remarkable and 630 00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:11,319 Speaker 1: even though I've known you from gosh over forty years, 631 00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,560 Speaker 1: I know you a lot better after this conversation. Well knew. 632 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:21,480 Speaker 1: It's a pleasure. Thank you to my guests, Doctor Terry Maple. 633 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,400 Speaker 1: You can read more about why Zoo's Matter on our 634 00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:27,920 Speaker 1: showpage at newtsworld dot com. News World is produced by 635 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:32,760 Speaker 1: Gingwish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producers Debbie Myers, 636 00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:37,280 Speaker 1: our producers Guarnsie Sloan, and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. 637 00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:40,520 Speaker 1: The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. 638 00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:44,319 Speaker 1: Special thanks to the team at Gingwis three sixty. If 639 00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:46,960 Speaker 1: you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple 640 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,399 Speaker 1: Podcasts and both rate us with five stars and give 641 00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,480 Speaker 1: us a review so others can learn what it's all about. 642 00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:56,640 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of news World can sign up for 643 00:45:56,760 --> 00:46:01,359 Speaker 1: my three free weekly columns at Gingrich three sixty dot 644 00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:06,279 Speaker 1: com slash newsletter. I'm newt Gingrich, This is newsworld