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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 3: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you doing.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well. You're very perky and your skin is glowing.

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Speaker 1: What's the secret?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Good god?

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't know if this is contributing to whatever

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Speaker 2: you're seeing or not, you know, but I have. I'm

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Speaker 2: trying a new diet and I'm sure a lot of

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Speaker 2: the listeners would cringe, but I'm going very low carb.

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Speaker 1: Okay, what is your old diet? I kind of see

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Speaker 1: you as meat and potatoes, but I'm sure I'm wrong

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Speaker 1: about that. I know sugar, you're repelled by sugar.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: You know, well years ago, I think in my early

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Speaker 2: forties to mid forties, I had done a physical and

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Speaker 2: a blood test and you know, the doc or the

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Speaker 2: results came back and said, you're not there yet, but

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Speaker 2: you are trending towards pre diabetes, okay, And that's what

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Speaker 2: really I at that point in time, I really went

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Speaker 2: low carb, eliminated anything with simple sugar in it, and

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Speaker 2: quite frankly, I saw a druma improvement in my body

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Speaker 2: composition as a result. It was sort of like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I wasn't expecting that. And then over over time, you know,

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Speaker 2: I've always been very protein centric, you know, because I'm

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Speaker 2: I lift, I kind of want to maintain a level

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Speaker 2: of muscle mass, especially as I get older. But then

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Speaker 2: as I've been kind of diving into the nutrition aspect

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Speaker 2: and listening to some of these these high end researchers

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Speaker 2: at universities, they really are focusing in on controlling insulin

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Speaker 2: and insulin resistance. Because we take a look at, you know,

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Speaker 2: what's been trending across the world, the recommendations that came

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Speaker 2: out that was very carb centric and low fat type

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Speaker 2: of diet, and yet we've seen diabetes and obesity increase

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Speaker 2: over time. And so I'm now listening to some of

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Speaker 2: these professors in their research. You know, I'm a biochem major,

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Speaker 2: but that was good.

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Speaker 3: God.

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Speaker 2: I got that agree back in nineteen ninety, you know,

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Speaker 2: and so much knowledge has changed since I had my education.

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Speaker 2: That was just blown away, and I thought, you know what,

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Speaker 2: controlling my insulin levels seems to make sense, and so

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Speaker 2: I've decided I'm going to try that. And so I'm

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Speaker 2: back on a you know, a low carb, high protein,

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Speaker 2: and quite frankly a high saturated fat diet now. So

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Speaker 2: I have incorporated red meat back into my diet because

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Speaker 2: I used to avoid.

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Speaker 3: It, you know.

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Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, so we'll.

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Speaker 3: See how it goes.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to do this for a while and get

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Speaker 2: some blood work done, and you know, also just see

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Speaker 2: how I feel and how you know, from a physical

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Speaker 2: performance standpoint, like the lifting or the mountain biking. You know,

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Speaker 2: am I able to continue to yeah, perform at a

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Speaker 2: at the same, if not better level on a lower

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Speaker 2: carb diet and a higher fat diet.

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Speaker 3: Than what I was doing before. So we'll see. That's

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Speaker 3: that's been sort of something I've been experimenting with.

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Speaker 1: So what does your wife say about all this? Does

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Speaker 1: she do a lot of the cooking. Does she have

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Speaker 1: to change anything?

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Speaker 3: She does all the cookie so she.

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Speaker 1: Has an opinion, I'm assuming was she like Paul, I

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Speaker 1: just bought you all these shredded mini weeds.

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Speaker 3: No, but you know that is She's cognizant.

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Speaker 2: But it's more the way that I would like if

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Speaker 2: she's cooking a higher carb meal than I would moderate.

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Speaker 2: On my end, I'm not expecting any change for the

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Speaker 2: family's meals at all.

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Speaker 1: I learned to cook for me a long time ago,

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Speaker 1: and you know, at this point, the kids are almost fifteen,

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Speaker 1: and I offer them tons of food, different, really healthy

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Speaker 1: foods to eat, and sometimes they want to order something

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Speaker 1: in with their own money, and sometimes they'll want to

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Speaker 1: eat with me. But if I tried to cater to

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Speaker 1: their needs all the time, you know, I would be

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Speaker 1: up a creek. I just wouldn't be able to do it.

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Speaker 1: So I cook what I want to cook, what tastes

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Speaker 1: good to me, what's healthy, and what I enjoy. I'm

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Speaker 1: really into lots of vegetables, lots of fruit, stuff like that,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not vegan, but I'm pretty close to it.

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Speaker 1: So you know I'm kind of at the opposite end

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Speaker 1: of it, so we would never be able to be married.

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Speaker 1: It would be it would be horrible for both of us.

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Speaker 2: I don't think, like right right here with an arms reach,

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Speaker 2: I got my zero sugar beef jerky, got my snack now.

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Speaker 1: And I have an herbal tea. Okay, there you go.

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Speaker 1: See And I know that you say there are some

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Speaker 1: episodes that I present to you that drive you to drink,

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Speaker 1: so we'll see if this is going to be one

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Speaker 1: of those episodes.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Well, I am all ears.

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Speaker 1: Well, this is a different kind of true crime story

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Speaker 1: and I don't know if it's solvable, but it is

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Speaker 1: really interesting, so let's go ahead and set the scene.

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Speaker 1: We are in England, which I love. I love it

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Speaker 1: when we go to England. I feel like we're in

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Speaker 1: Australia and England the most as far as like overseas countries.

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Speaker 1: But you know, I would like to expand go worldwide

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Speaker 1: at some point, but we are in England. I feel

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Speaker 1: like quite a bit. Some of our best stories I

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Speaker 1: think come out of England.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, both of us, you know, have connections to England

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Speaker 2: or London, and we spent a fair amount of time

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Speaker 2: in London together.

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Speaker 1: Yep, okay, So let me tell you this about me

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Speaker 1: that you probably already know. I am an atmosphere girl.

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Speaker 1: If I could have a gas lamp in every room

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Speaker 1: in our house flickering at night, with all the lights on,

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Speaker 1: a fog machine pumping fog throughout the hallways, I would.

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Speaker 1: I love creepy macabre. I mean, just like I love

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Speaker 1: the constant Halloween vibe, which says a lot considering what

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Speaker 1: I talk about almost every single day of my life

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Speaker 1: true crime. I like creepy stuff. And we are in

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Speaker 1: a bog for real bog, England bog for this story.

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Speaker 1: Are you an atmosphere kind of guy too? Do you?

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Speaker 1: Do you like kind of certain books that evoke things,

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Speaker 1: or certain movies or anything that evoke certain kinds of

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Speaker 1: atmosphere for you?

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Speaker 2: You know, I don't go out of my way to

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Speaker 2: set up any particular atmosphere, but I do gravitate towards,

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Speaker 2: you know, like what you're talking about a little bit

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Speaker 2: not necessarily creepy, but more of that that dark type

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Speaker 2: of environment, you know, like my man cave here is

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Speaker 2: all dark wood.

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Speaker 3: I kind of keep it dark.

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Speaker 2: It's in the basement but you know the kind of

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Speaker 2: the creepy side, you know, I could, I could go

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Speaker 2: there to a point. It just you know, I don't

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Speaker 2: want it to go to where Now all I'm seeing

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Speaker 2: our dead bodies all the time because I deal with that.

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Speaker 1: Enough says, well, you're not gonna like this story then,

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Speaker 1: because we are dealing with dead bodies in a blog. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So this is Cheshire, England, and we are talking about

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Speaker 1: the Lindo Moss, which is a very large peat bog

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Speaker 1: in Cheshire. So do you know much about bogs. I

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Speaker 1: only really kind of know Sherlock homes kind of creepy bogs.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I've ever been to a bog before.

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Speaker 2: With how you're describing it, you know, the kind of

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Speaker 2: the peat moss, I just start thinking scotchy, you know,

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Speaker 2: from that perspective. But I would say with the bog

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Speaker 2: from I think more from an archaeological standpoint. How you know,

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Speaker 2: you have various animals as well as humans that have

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Speaker 2: been preserved, you know, within this bog environment.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well this is You're right, a great way to

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Speaker 1: preserve a body. It's spongy, marshy wetland that is hydrated

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Speaker 1: most of the time, much of the time by like

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Speaker 1: rain and snow instead of groundwater. Precipitation has less nutrients

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Speaker 1: than groundwater, so the bogs are pretty nutrient poor as

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Speaker 1: a result. And you know this one, the Lindo moss

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Speaker 1: formed over ten thousand years ago, after the last Ice Age. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so it's interesting dump sites, murder scenes have a history.

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Speaker 1: This one has a particularly very old deep history. Fifteen

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Speaker 1: hundred acre. That's big. Now it's a fraction of its

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Speaker 1: original size, but it's still a substantial bog. The decaying

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Speaker 1: material in Lindo moss transforms into a soil called pete.

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Speaker 1: I don't know a lot about pete. Pete can be

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Speaker 1: cut from the bog and dried and used as a

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Speaker 1: fuel source. And people have been extracting pete from this

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Speaker 1: moss area, this bog since the Middle Ages, and it

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Speaker 1: was at first harvested by hand, but as the time

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Speaker 1: went past the process became mechanized. So I don't know

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Speaker 1: a lot about pete. Is that what your connection is

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Speaker 1: with whiskey is that part of it is the peat.

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Speaker 3: With the scotch.

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Speaker 2: You know, they described scotch just having the kind of

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Speaker 2: the peaty flavor, and my understanding is somehow pete is

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Speaker 2: utilized in the manufacture of the Scotch.

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Speaker 3: So that's really the extent of my knowledge. When when you.

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Speaker 2: Say pete and moss, my media thought goes towards the

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Speaker 2: Scotch manufacturing.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's move away from the history of this bog

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Speaker 1: and let's talk about what happens in nineteen eighty three.

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Speaker 1: So there are two workers named Andy Mold and Steven Dooley,

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Speaker 1: and they're operating some machinery in the Lindo moss and

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Speaker 1: they are trying to get the very valuable pete out.

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Speaker 1: So they notice when they are kind of excavating in

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Speaker 1: this area what looks like a black soccer ball in

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Speaker 1: the bog, and they pull it up and they inspect it.

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Speaker 1: And there's a magazine called Distillations Magazine, and they wrote

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Speaker 1: a story about this, and so you know, the magazine

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Speaker 1: says that when Stephen and Andy washed the object, they

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Speaker 1: discover that it is a human skull, that it's missing

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Speaker 1: its jaw but still has some skin and some hair

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Speaker 1: and an eyeball that stared back at them. And the

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Speaker 1: men of course freak out. Turn this skull this head

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Speaker 1: over to the police and the police say, we know

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Speaker 1: exactly who this is. There's been a woman who's been

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Speaker 1: missing for the last twenty years and she lived right

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Speaker 1: off of this bog, and this is her, and this

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Speaker 1: begins a really fascinating murder investigation. So I often think

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Speaker 1: about the bog, the swamp, you know, the ocean, these

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Speaker 1: very huge, wide areas when I go and when I'm

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Speaker 1: in northern California on the one oh one and driving

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Speaker 1: to my favorite like pub, and I look over and

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Speaker 1: we're in like the Headlands, and I think this is

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Speaker 1: a great place to bury a body. I think, what

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Speaker 1: if there is not an Andy and a Stephen out

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Speaker 1: there digging around in this place and they happen upon

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Speaker 1: a body. Gosh, how many bodies are out there that

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Speaker 1: will just never be found because it's not stumbled upon.

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Speaker 2: That happens all the time. There's so many cases, you know,

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Speaker 2: in which we've got missing persons and they met foul

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Speaker 2: play and their bodies are have been hidden so well

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Speaker 2: that in all likelihood they will never be found. And

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Speaker 2: there's so many cases you know where you think, well,

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Speaker 2: you know who killed the person. The killer is sitting

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Speaker 2: in prison but has never revealed where he's put the

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Speaker 2: murdered victim's body, which for me is very frustrating. You

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Speaker 2: know that person, you know, has the knowledge, if there

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Speaker 2: is only a way to be able to get that

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Speaker 2: person to talk. Yeah, it's interesting you talk about if

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Speaker 2: it wasn't for Andy and Steven in my jurisdiction that

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Speaker 2: some of the most common reasons some of these hidden

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Speaker 2: bodies are found was due to bottle hunters. Oh, okay,

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Speaker 2: this is this is a little historical thing. Is that

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Speaker 2: you have people who collect old bottles, and where do

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Speaker 2: they find these bottles? Often in creeks, and so they're

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Speaker 2: out there in these remote locations looking for bottles that

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Speaker 2: are on you know, in the creek bed. And of

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Speaker 2: course these creeks are typically in a ravine next to

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Speaker 2: a road, and this is where offenders will drive up,

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Speaker 2: pull a body out, and throw it down into the

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Speaker 2: creek and then drive off.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: So I've got multiple cases in which bottle collectors, bottle

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Speaker 2: hunters are the ones that found these victims.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I've mentioned this to you before,

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Speaker 1: but I have a very close friend who is a

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Speaker 1: really great, like nationally ranked rower, and she would row

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Speaker 1: very early in the morning on Ladybird Lake, which is

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Speaker 1: a lake here in Austin, and sometimes they would find

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Speaker 1: the bodies of people who had either taken their own

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Speaker 1: lives or something had happened to them. They were the

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Speaker 1: ones who discovered them because they were out so early

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Speaker 1: in the morning, you know, and they were there. So

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Speaker 1: this story about the bog really makes me think about

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Speaker 1: that if we had not had these two men out

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Speaker 1: there in this area, had happened to struck upon this

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Speaker 1: and they found this skull, the police would not have

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Speaker 1: We know who this probably is. So this happened in

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Speaker 1: eighty three, so just keep that in mind. They go

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Speaker 1: to the police. The investigators say, okay, we think this

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Speaker 1: is this woman and her name is Malika Date Fernandez

257
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Speaker 1: and she had been missing for twenty years. She went

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Speaker 1: missing in the sixties. She was married to a local

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Speaker 1: man named Peter rain Bart. They always thought that Peter

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Speaker 1: had something to do with her disappearance. She just vanished

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Speaker 1: off of the face of the earth. He said, I

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Speaker 1: don't have anything to do with this. I don't know

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Speaker 1: where she is. And police had never been able to

264
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Speaker 1: find her body. They weren't able to trace anything. There's

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Speaker 1: no cell phones, no CCTV anything like that, and they're

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Speaker 1: in a remote area along this bog. The most damning

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Speaker 1: police say, piece of circumstantial evidence they have against Peter

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Speaker 1: is that Malika was last seen in his cottage, which

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Speaker 1: is right on the edge of the moss. They didn't

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Speaker 1: live together at the cottage, but they were separated at

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Speaker 1: this point. So when these Pete moss workers trying to

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Speaker 1: excavate this stuff find the human head, Peter's gone. He

273
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Speaker 1: doesn't live at the cottage anymore. But the head is

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Speaker 1: found about three hundred meters from his old home, which

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Speaker 1: is where you know, Malika was last seen alive. Already,

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Speaker 1: we're thinking he's probably gotten away with murder. He's thinking

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Speaker 1: I can dump her body into the bog and it

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Speaker 1: will disappear and never be preserved. And little does he know.

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Speaker 1: I guess with all of the circumstances that happen in

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Speaker 1: this bog, the lack of organisms, I guess that stuff

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Speaker 1: gets preserved really easily.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's my understanding.

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Speaker 2: You know, and you've got these animals that have been

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Speaker 2: preserved for very long periods of time. You know, you

285
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Speaker 2: got what sounds like an anaerobic environment, poor nutrients, and

286
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Speaker 2: the pd stuff, so you don't have the typical bacteria

287
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Speaker 2: that will cause the animals, including humans, to decompose in

288
00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:05,720
Speaker 2: the same way. And so oftentimes these animals they look

289
00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,320
Speaker 2: like they died, you know, relatively recently, but they are

290
00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:12,000
Speaker 2: very old. They've been dead there and preserved for a

291
00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:12,880
Speaker 2: very long time.

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Speaker 1: Well, while police are trying to track down Peter, the

293
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,440
Speaker 1: forensic experts take a look at this head and they

294
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Speaker 1: say this is a woman and she is somewhere between

295
00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:26,400
Speaker 1: thirty and fifty years old. So Malika was in her

296
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Speaker 1: early thirties when she went missing. How do they know that?

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Speaker 1: How are they able to look at this skull? I know,

298
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Speaker 1: the eyeball was preserved, and you know, but she's missing

299
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Speaker 1: part of a jaw, and I can show you a

300
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Speaker 1: photo of what they had. How would they be able

301
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Speaker 1: to figure out her age? Is it based on teeth

302
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Speaker 1: or something?

303
00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:44,400
Speaker 3: Teeth are used.

304
00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:49,240
Speaker 2: But when you start talking about the anthropological assessment of

305
00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:53,120
Speaker 2: a human skull, you know, there's a variety of characteristics

306
00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:57,560
Speaker 2: that anthropologists will look at. You know, in terms of gender,

307
00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,040
Speaker 2: women tend to have what they can called more gracial

308
00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,880
Speaker 2: type of bony structure. You know, men have more prominent

309
00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,560
Speaker 2: brows and more prominent, you know, so they look at

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Speaker 2: is this robust skull? Is this a more gracial skull?

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Speaker 2: Terms of age? You know, you start taking a look

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00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,920
Speaker 2: at the sutures in the skull. You know, when you're young,

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00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:25,120
Speaker 2: the various bones that make up your your cranium, they

314
00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,960
Speaker 2: have these sutures. Everybody can visualize the skull, and these

315
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:32,679
Speaker 2: sutures are you know, when when a baby is born,

316
00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:35,480
Speaker 2: you know, the head has to be able to compress

317
00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,400
Speaker 2: to pass through the vaginal cavity to come out, and

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Speaker 2: these sutures are what allow the baby's skull.

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Speaker 3: To do that.

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00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:46,399
Speaker 2: And then as the human grows, these these sutures start

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Speaker 2: to fuse together. And so the older you get, the

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Speaker 2: more these sutures are fused. And so an anthropologist can say, well,

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Speaker 2: based on the state of the sutures, this is the

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00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:03,000
Speaker 2: general age range that this skull is. And there's many

325
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Speaker 2: other things, you know, most of them I'm probably forgetting

326
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Speaker 2: a whole bunch at this point, but that's generally how

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Speaker 2: you know, the anthropologist is able to make some opinions.

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Speaker 2: Now in this day and age, we have you know,

329
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Speaker 2: DNA aspects in which we can be much more accurate

330
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Speaker 2: with gender determination as an example, and of course being

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Speaker 2: able to identify somebody based off the DNA we can

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Speaker 2: recover from the bones, and we've seen where anthropologists will

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00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,120
Speaker 2: say this is a female skull and it turns out, well,

334
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Speaker 2: it's not a female skull, it's a male skull, or

335
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Speaker 2: vice versa.

336
00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,760
Speaker 1: Moving forward, they feel confident this is a female skull

337
00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,359
Speaker 1: because this is so close to where Peter's cottage was.

338
00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:48,800
Speaker 1: They feel like this has to be Malika. This has

339
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,320
Speaker 1: never been a closed case for the police out there.

340
00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:54,760
Speaker 1: They have always been looking for her. When they determine

341
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Speaker 1: that this skull is somewhere in the right age range,

342
00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:00,840
Speaker 1: they go to find Peter and he's not hard to

343
00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,840
Speaker 1: find because he had just been released for prison after

344
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:08,600
Speaker 1: serving time for sex crimes against children. And when they

345
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:12,840
Speaker 1: go to him about the bog, he starts talking in

346
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,919
Speaker 1: a way, really disclosing as much as he can to

347
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,040
Speaker 1: try to get himself out of trouble. So Peter and

348
00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:22,800
Speaker 1: Malika were married just four days after they met each other,

349
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Speaker 1: so this was not a marriage out of love. He

350
00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,560
Speaker 1: says he had an executive level job at a British

351
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,960
Speaker 1: airline and he needed to be married because he was

352
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,280
Speaker 1: gay and in the sixties early sixties, it was illegal

353
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,920
Speaker 1: to be gay in Britain. In nineteen sixty seven they

354
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:45,320
Speaker 1: passed the Sexual Offenses Act, which decriminalized private homosexual acts

355
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,560
Speaker 1: between men who were over twenty one, but this was

356
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,119
Speaker 1: in the early sixties, so it was still illegal. Malika

357
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:53,919
Speaker 1: for her part, because I was thinking, why is she

358
00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:56,720
Speaker 1: agreeing to this? Would be given the opportunity to take

359
00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:01,399
Speaker 1: nearly free flights because she's married to an airline employee.

360
00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:05,240
Speaker 1: So both of them went into this marriage, according to him,

361
00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:09,239
Speaker 1: with no romance. It was all you know, business and

362
00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:11,679
Speaker 1: all of that. That's why she wasn't living with him.

363
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,639
Speaker 3: It's setting up what the relationship is. Now.

364
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:20,679
Speaker 2: How does Peter benefit if he kills Malika? That's you know,

365
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,880
Speaker 2: my first question, hmm. If he's responsible for her going

366
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,960
Speaker 2: missing and it's a it's a homicide, how does Peter

367
00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:28,240
Speaker 2: benefit if.

368
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,960
Speaker 1: We believe him, he turns Melika into the bad guy.

369
00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,960
Speaker 1: So what he says is that, you know, within a

370
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:38,159
Speaker 1: couple of months, Malika is pressing him for more money

371
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,640
Speaker 1: and again you know she's not around, so we don't know.

372
00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:46,000
Speaker 1: Apparently she tried to blackmail him because he wanted to

373
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:49,760
Speaker 1: move in with his boyfriend, with his male partner, and

374
00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,080
Speaker 1: you know, he put his foot down and said no.

375
00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:57,040
Speaker 1: It escalated a violence and then the police pressed him,

376
00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,240
Speaker 1: pressed him more, and he says, she freaked out out,

377
00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,760
Speaker 1: she attacked me, and I killed her. He admits this. Oh,

378
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,040
Speaker 1: he admits this. When he finds out that this skull

379
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,680
Speaker 1: belongs to a woman in her thirties to fifties whatever

380
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,480
Speaker 1: that age rage was, and they show him the photo.

381
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,119
Speaker 1: He goes, Okay, this is what really happened. This is

382
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:17,800
Speaker 1: not the end of the story. I promise Paul.

383
00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:18,479
Speaker 2: No.

384
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,080
Speaker 1: It's like this is a really quick episode.

385
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:25,160
Speaker 2: My wheels are spinning a little bit because you've set

386
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:29,040
Speaker 2: the scene in this bog, and we've talked about this bog,

387
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:34,639
Speaker 2: how many bodies are potentially out in this Lindo Moss

388
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:39,560
Speaker 2: area with what they've done relatively, you know, back in

389
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:44,480
Speaker 2: we were talking nineteen eighty three an anthropological assessment, which

390
00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:46,879
Speaker 2: in this day and age, I know, can be a

391
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:51,679
Speaker 2: little bit inaccurate. I now start questioning, is this skull

392
00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:57,159
Speaker 2: really Malika's? Sounds like they just solved her case, But

393
00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,240
Speaker 2: do they have Malika's body or do they have somebody

394
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:00,919
Speaker 2: else's body.

395
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,919
Speaker 1: I think, as my mother would say, you're smelling what

396
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:09,399
Speaker 1: I'm cooking. I don't know if my mom says that.

397
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,359
Speaker 1: Somebody's mother says that, though, you're on the right track.

398
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,520
Speaker 1: So he says, I dismembered her body. I tossed her

399
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 1: into the bog. I tried to burn her body parts first.

400
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,600
Speaker 1: And the detective inspector, who's a guy, a smart guy

401
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,040
Speaker 1: named George Abbot in eighty three, says, that's weird. We

402
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,920
Speaker 1: don't see any signs of burning on the head, and

403
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,359
Speaker 1: we can't find any of the other body parts which

404
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,560
Speaker 1: they thought would be preserved because this is not moving water,

405
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,320
Speaker 1: you know, it's still water. Great, and so we get

406
00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:42,399
Speaker 1: to find all about radiocarbon dating. Okay, so now you

407
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 1: will know what they knew how to do. In nineteen

408
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 1: eighty three, George Abbot sends the head off to Oxford

409
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:52,000
Speaker 1: University for another opinion. And this is not the head

410
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:56,960
Speaker 1: of Malika de Fernandez. This is the skull of a woman.

411
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:02,320
Speaker 1: And the skull is dated back seventeen cent Roman Britain.

412
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:07,440
Speaker 1: And then we figure out there is another murder mystery happening,

413
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 1: but it is seventeen centuries old. The oldest case ever.

414
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,639
Speaker 1: We're out to saw Fall and it's not this woman.

415
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 1: It's somebody else in the bog. They are really looking

416
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,399
Speaker 1: at this bog now, so it is too late. Peter

417
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 1: finds this out, dumbass. He confesses he didn't have to.

418
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 1: He tries to recan't, and it's too late, and he

419
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 1: spends the rest of his life in prison. And just

420
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,119
Speaker 1: as a really sad note, they as far as I

421
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,119
Speaker 1: can tell, have never found Malika different end as his body.

422
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:41,919
Speaker 2: Also, they didn't get Peter to take them out and

423
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 2: show where he put her body.

424
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 1: He said it was right where you found the head.

425
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 3: So Malika's still out there somewhere she is.

426
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 1: But there are two other bodies that are seventeen centuries

427
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 1: old that we have to deal with. So first, let

428
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,400
Speaker 1: me show you the head that they thought was Malika's.

429
00:23:58,440 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 1: If you're interested in that, or do you want to

430
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 1: you want to learn a little bit more about what

431
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:03,160
Speaker 1: they found with the carbon dating, what do you want

432
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:03,359
Speaker 1: to do?

433
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 3: No, let me see the head.

434
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: Okay, let me see the heads. That's something we say often.

435
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 2: Yes, So I'm looking at a picture of the skull.

436
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,439
Speaker 2: As you described, the lower mandible is gone, it looks

437
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 2: like the ruler in front. I can't tell if it's blocking,

438
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 2: you know, like the upper part of the mouth, but

439
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:31,400
Speaker 2: I can see the two orbits and the cranium as

440
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,439
Speaker 2: I was describing, you know, I'm not seeing prominent, you know,

441
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,399
Speaker 2: brow ridges on this skull. I can see some of

442
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:41,120
Speaker 2: the sutures, and there is what appears to be some

443
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:46,360
Speaker 2: tissue adhering to this skull, both inside the orbits. I'm

444
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 2: not sure if that's part of the peat adhering to

445
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 2: the skull, but it appears that there is some tissue there.

446
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 2: And you had described that one of the eyes was

447
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,160
Speaker 2: still present, so I can see where this skull being

448
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,440
Speaker 2: found in such a condition. To me, it's like, yes,

449
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 2: this is not a historic body. This is a body

450
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 2: that obviously been deceased for a while, but would be contemporary,

451
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 2: you know, it would be something that would be pursued

452
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 2: as Yeah, we've got a body of somebody that died

453
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,159
Speaker 2: probably within the last few years.

454
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 1: Not so much. No, this is very old and we

455
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 1: have a lot of information about her. And there is

456
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:29,160
Speaker 1: a companion who has a very interesting history, and I'll

457
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,160
Speaker 1: tell you about that in a second. All the other

458
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 1: pictures have to do with the man who is found

459
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 1: in this bog very close by. So carbon dating, now

460
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 1: we get into the science y bit of this. I

461
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 1: didn't know very much about carbon dating. So the little

462
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 1: summary I have is it measures the level of carbon

463
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 1: fourteen isotope in human remains. Do you want to geek

464
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 1: out and give us an explanation or do you want

465
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 1: me to go with our official little explanation here, It's.

466
00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 3: Up to you.

467
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I am familiar with carbon dating to

468
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,679
Speaker 2: a point in terms of looking at the ratio of

469
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 2: the carbon fourteen to carbon thirteen isotopes, if I remember correctly,

470
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 2: you know. And it's interesting because there's a variety of

471
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 2: different types of isotopic analysis that can be done, not

472
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 2: just carbon which can help geologically place you know, where

473
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 2: let's say a body had been during life. Because what

474
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 2: we're doing is we're constantly absorbing from the environment that

475
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 2: we're living in, and different locations on the planet or

476
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 2: even within a particular country or state have different ratios

477
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:44,719
Speaker 2: of these isotopes, and so our bodies assimilate those isotopes

478
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 2: in that same ratio. And so scientists can do this

479
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 2: isotopic analysis and say, hey, looks like this person whose

480
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:56,160
Speaker 2: bodies found over in Florida has you know, various isotope

481
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:58,479
Speaker 2: ratios that's more consistent with coming out of the Pacific

482
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 2: Northwest as an example. And I'm doing a very crude

483
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 2: explanation relative to what experts would be able to describe.

484
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 2: But the carbon aspect, it's also how after death your

485
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 2: body is no longer in this assimilation mode, and now

486
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:20,920
Speaker 2: that the carbon ratio changes over time. I'm probably not

487
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 2: doing justice in terms of from the science standpoint, but

488
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 2: fundamentally they're able to age based on that carbon fourteen

489
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 2: carbon thirteen ratio out of the bones or whatever tissue.

490
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: I think that's a good explanation. I'm not sure I

491
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,959
Speaker 1: would add too much to it. I will say that

492
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 1: upon further inspection, they at Oxford University said part of

493
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,959
Speaker 1: her brain is in here too. So this like magic bog,

494
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: has preserved this woman for you know, almost two thousand years.

495
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 1: The water source is interesting preserving bodies and bogs. You

496
00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: have to have very specific conditions, and we talk about

497
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 1: that with decomposition all the time. How the weather is

498
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 1: so important to an outdoor crime scene, how quickly decomposition

499
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 1: can happen the climate needs to be cool and temperate.

500
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 1: It can't get too hot. At the same time, the

501
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 1: bog temperature ideally is below thirty nine degrees when the

502
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 1: body enters the bog, and so the average annual temperature

503
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: you know, needs to be about below fifty degrees. And

504
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: apparently that's the condition that we're talking about with the

505
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:33,679
Speaker 1: Lindo moss bog is it's that perfect condition to preserve. So,

506
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,679
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I see why they're able to

507
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 1: then soon make another discovery that is so well preserved

508
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 1: that I have pictures that are to me just stunning.

509
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and this is where in essence, these

510
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 2: bodies are refrigerated. Due to the temperature and the ground

511
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 2: temperature that they're in, the bacterial aspect is minimized, you know,

512
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 2: since there isn't a lot of that going on. There's

513
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 2: not a lot of nutrients in this this pet moss.

514
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 2: But also there's a there's a protection from the surface

515
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 2: with these bodies that are under I don't know if

516
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 2: you want to call it ground, but you know now

517
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 2: it's the insects can't access the bodies, and insects are

518
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 2: huge when it comes to you know, part of the

519
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 2: you know, the decay of surface deposits of bodies, but

520
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 2: also predators aren't accessing these bodies perfect conditions.

521
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: And not to get too geeky about this, but there's

522
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 1: also a specific type of moss. It's not just any

523
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 1: old moss that creates these perfect conditions. This moss that's

524
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: in the Lindau blog is called Sphagnum moss, which I

525
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: had never heard of before. This specific moss alters the

526
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 1: water chemistry. It makes it very highly acidic and low

527
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,959
Speaker 1: in oxygen. So when you combine the acidic water with

528
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 1: the lack of oxygen and the low nutrient levels, you're right.

529
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 1: It just stops bacteria and fungi in their tracks, and

530
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 1: it really helps stop the decomposition of the body. Distillation

531
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 1: Magazine says, it's not a decay anymore. They tan like

532
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 1: leather almost so the skin turns brown, the hair goes red,

533
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: and the objects in and around the body dissolve away,

534
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 1: as does most of the clothing, so you're left with

535
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 1: the actual body. Gosh, it's so interesting.

536
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 2: No having recovered skeletal remains and digging up bodies, you

537
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 2: know it is. It's fascinating to see how various objects age.

538
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 2: You know, and you start talking like the clothing. You know,

539
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 2: this is where, you know, digging up a body that's

540
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 2: been buried for a long time. You see how the

541
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 2: different fabrics you will deteriorate over time, whereas you know,

542
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 2: some fabrics don't. Articles of clothing will change color, you know,

543
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 2: as as they age in the ground.

544
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 3: You know. So it's all just it.

545
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 2: It's really kind of a surreal different look when evaluating

546
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 2: evidence and bodies and the passage of time. It's not

547
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 2: what you would normally ever experience, you know, But now

548
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 2: you're looking at I've had evidence in storage, it's been

549
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 2: packaged properly, stored properly, but just due to age, you know,

550
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 2: there's been dramatic changes in the appearance of the evidence,

551
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 2: the clothing.

552
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 1: For example, for Andy Mold, the guy who you know,

553
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: made the initial discovery of who we thought was Molika

554
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 1: and it turned out to be the Lindo woman. A

555
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 1: year later, he finds more remains around the same spot.

556
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: This time it's a human foot. This time the police go,

557
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 1: this must be Molika. It is not. They search and

558
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: search and excavate, and they find an incredibly well preserved

559
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 1: skeletal remains from the bog, which is an upper torso

560
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 1: and a full head. So this is not the Lindo

561
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: woman because there's a head. This is about one thousand

562
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 1: years old, so more contemporary than the Lindo Woman. The

563
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 1: Colando woman was seventeen hundred. This is a thousand years

564
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 1: and he is called the Lindo Man and he's from

565
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: the Iron Age. He's the one we wonder if was murdered,

566
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: and I'll tell you why, because there's so much preserved

567
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 1: on him. It's incredible.

568
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like how many bodies are out here?

569
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 1: A lot? Right, And it's interesting because if you're a

570
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: contemporary killer boy, would you want to read up on

571
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: this and think this is not the bog? For me,

572
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 1: I probably need to dump somewhere else where they were

573
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 1: not to have Gallow's humor about this, but where they

574
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 1: were decomposed, because this is obviously they're so well preserved. Okay,

575
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 1: so let me tell you about the Lindo Man. So

576
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 1: he is five foot six, he's in his mid to

577
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 1: late twenties. When he died, he had a trimmed beard

578
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 1: and manicured nails. These were all preserved, so they did

579
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: not think that he was engaged in intensive labor because

580
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: you know, he was very well kept. He was well

581
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: built and well fed. He has found naked except for

582
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: an armband. So listen to this, and then we can

583
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 1: talk about all of the weird things that happen with

584
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: preserving bodies. He's totally naked, so we know that, you know,

585
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 1: the clothing can be dissolved away, except there's an armband

586
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 1: made of fox fur around his arm. So the fox

587
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 1: fur would not I guess not, because why would that

588
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 1: not go away?

589
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 2: You know, I don't have any any knowledge as to

590
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 2: why the fox for wouldn't deteriorate, but obviously it didn't.

591
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 3: You know.

592
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 2: But like what I've seen just modern clothing, you know,

593
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 2: the cotton versus synthetic fibers, the elastic bands, you know,

594
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 2: the various things that are within clothing items such as

595
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 2: like when you start dealing like with bras and the

596
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 2: underwire to a bra or the snaps you know.

597
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 3: On a jacket.

598
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 2: You know, this is what I've seen. These different types

599
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 2: of fabric and different types of objects and clothing. They

600
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 2: deteriorate at different rates, and some don't deteriorate at all,

601
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 2: you know, so it's not surprising you you're talking about

602
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 2: this this Lindo man. Was he nude when he was

603
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 2: deposited there? That's a possibility, but it's also entirely possible

604
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 2: the clothing that he had on just happened to deteriorate

605
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:21,839
Speaker 2: in this environment and it's gone.

606
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 3: You know, but that fox fur band is what remains.

607
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, let me show you this. Get ready for

608
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 1: a little show and tell I mean, why do you

609
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 1: see this? What they found? This man? Andy had to

610
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 1: find this. There's the foot. Oh wow, I know I

611
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:40,800
Speaker 1: have most of his body and you go ahead and

612
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:41,800
Speaker 1: describe what you see.

613
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I'm looking at a photograph of It's not

614
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,319
Speaker 2: just a foot. It's really the lower leg with what

615
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 2: appears to be, you know, most of the tissue and

616
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 2: skin present, though there's you know, weird disruptions to the

617
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 2: skin over the entirety of the surface of of this

618
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 2: lower leg. But the foot itself, at least in the

619
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 2: where I'm seeing the toes, it almost appears that like

620
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 2: the toenails are are still present. You know this this

621
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 2: looks you know, from my perspective, if I ran across this,

622
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,800
Speaker 2: I would say, okay, I've got I've got a.

623
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 3: Relatively recently killed person. I would not be able.

624
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 2: To draw conclusion as to you know, the disruption to

625
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 2: the skin. In many ways, it almost looks like a

626
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 2: leg that's been run over. It's been a vulsed, you know,

627
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 2: the tissue has been evalced a little bit by a

628
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 2: tire going over. But I know that's not what's happening here.

629
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 2: It's just that, you know, if I were looking at this,

630
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 2: I'd go, yeah, this is a recent, recently deceased body

631
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 2: and some crushing force had been had been applied to

632
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 2: the lower leg.

633
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,319
Speaker 1: I was just thinking, if you're the police chief or

634
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 1: whomever in charge in this area, you would have to

635
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 1: know that this is a body that has the potential

636
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 1: to be very very old. You would have to know

637
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 1: your areas so well in the history of it. Can

638
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 1: you imagine this just being preserved kind of in a

639
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,720
Speaker 1: normal way, and you know, it becomes a John Doe

640
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,240
Speaker 1: case or something, and then you've got this piece of history.

641
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: Now hold on to your hat. Look at this. That

642
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 1: is him?

643
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 2: So yeah, this is the basically it looks the Lindo man.

644
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 2: It's it's not just as upper torso he's got both

645
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 2: his arms his head. In many ways, it looks like

646
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 2: somebody who has been dismembered through the abdomen. You know,

647
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 2: the lower body is gone, but the skin, the facial

648
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:45,399
Speaker 2: features are are present. You know, there is abnormalities that

649
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 2: stand out. You know, having looked at a lot of

650
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 2: you know, dead bodies, this doesn't look normal.

651
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 3: You know, that would be a clue. But most certainly it's.

652
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 2: Shocking on how well preserved the Lindo man is. Considering

653
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 2: he dies a thousand years ago.

654
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 1: There's another version of him here. I don't know if

655
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 1: this is any more hopeful. I think it's through a case. Actually,

656
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 1: you could probably see the discoloration a little bit better

657
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 1: on this one. It's sort of red, even more leathery

658
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 1: in some ways.

659
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, so this photograph, which it is, it

660
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 3: is hard.

661
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 2: It's more zoomed in on his head and you know,

662
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 2: shoulder area, chest maybe chest area. You know, that type

663
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 2: of discoloration to his skin, which they said is like

664
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 2: a tanning. You know, that's not all that atypical from

665
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:42,399
Speaker 2: what I've seen on dead bodies that end up desiccating.

666
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 2: They mummify surface deposit exposed to the sun. The skin

667
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 2: kind of turns an orangish color, kind of will go

668
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 2: leathery if it desiccates real fast.

669
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 3: So this is what is often.

670
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 2: Seen in the very arid environments when bodies are dumped

671
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:02,359
Speaker 2: out there, let's say in the Arizona or hikers you know,

672
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 2: die and then you know they dehydrate so fast and

673
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 2: are exposed to the sun.

674
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:11,320
Speaker 3: It's like this, this brown, brownish orange.

675
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 2: Leather type of look that the skin takes as the

676
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 2: body is decaying.

677
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 1: Well, we're going to come back to these photos. I

678
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 1: have a couple of additional ones to share with you

679
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 1: because this is not as simple. Hey, Paul, tell me

680
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 1: about how bodies are preserved kind of story. This turned

681
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 1: into a big mystery because whoever the Lindo man was,

682
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:38,839
Speaker 1: he really suffered before he died, and we see his injuries.

683
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 1: So let me tell you more about him. So I

684
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 1: told you about the armband made a fox for I

685
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 1: told you he had. Now you know why they know

686
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 1: he had manicured nails, nice nails, because everything was preserved.

687
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:54,239
Speaker 1: He's in good physical health aside from osteoarthritis and a

688
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 1: case of intestinal parasites. How would they know that really

689
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:00,160
Speaker 1: intestinal pair.

690
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 2: You know, obviously his intestines must have been preserved, and

691
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 2: these parasites must have been found. I don't know if

692
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,360
Speaker 2: these are microscopic parasites or would be like a tapeworm.

693
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 1: Wow, oh gosh. There's an archaeologist named Anne Ross. She

694
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 1: thinks that he was based on a lot of this,

695
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,840
Speaker 1: that he was either a Celtic priest or like Druid,

696
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 1: or some kind of king because he had no callouses

697
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: on his hands, his body had not been previously injured

698
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 1: until he died, and he was definitely not a laborer,

699
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,359
Speaker 1: definitely not a warrior. There's a lot we don't know

700
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:40,479
Speaker 1: about him, but there's a I think it's a TV

701
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 1: show called Discover Lindo is reporting that he had eaten

702
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 1: a slightly burned barley based meal, either like a grittle

703
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 1: cake or a thick porridge, along with fragments of hazelnuts

704
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 1: and some traces of meat shortly before his death. I mean,

705
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 1: good Lord, for you to be able to know that

706
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 1: from a thousand years ago is incredible. Incredible.

707
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, it just.

708
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 2: Really underscores that it's not just the external aspects of

709
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 2: these bodies that are being preserved, but it's the entirety

710
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,240
Speaker 2: of the bodies, including the stomach contents.

711
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 1: Right, and so They look at his stomach also, so

712
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 1: we know the stomach contents, we know what he ate.

713
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 1: They found traces of mistletoe in his stomach, which might

714
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 1: have been used medicinally, or he might have just eaten

715
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 1: it accidentally, but it is toxic to humans. That's not

716
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 1: what killed him for sure. It could have been used medicinally.

717
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 1: He was dated between two BC and one one nine

718
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 1: AD one hundred and nineteen AD. So you want to

719
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 1: hear about how he did not die. It sounds like

720
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 1: the in the most peaceful way you would think for

721
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 1: a king or a druid or whoever he was.

722
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:51,919
Speaker 2: Well, we know these you want to call him, These

723
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:57,359
Speaker 2: ancient cultures, they often did horrific things to each other.

724
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 1: M hmm, absolutely, So let's talk about the brutal death.

725
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 1: It suggested, based on his body that there were multiple

726
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 1: tactics used to kill him. This was I thought this

727
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,840
Speaker 1: was interesting using the phrase overkill when you're talking about,

728
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 1: you know, bodies from a thousand years ago, But that

729
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:20,720
Speaker 1: phrase has been associated with a lot of European bog

730
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 1: bodies in places like Ireland and Denmark. Bodies found in

731
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 1: bogs have shown signs of being I'm gonna use this

732
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 1: phrase one day, triple killed. Have you ever used that

733
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 1: phrase before? Triple kill? Okay, they say triple killed. Some

734
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 1: of them have been strangled, bashed in the head, and disemboweled,

735
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 1: just like you said, all at once in what are

736
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:50,319
Speaker 1: believed to be ritualistic sacrifices to gods or goddesses, and

737
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 1: each injury is dedicated to a specific god or goddess.

738
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: Isn't it interesting?

739
00:41:57,560 --> 00:41:58,720
Speaker 3: I'm glad I lived today.

740
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 1: You could still be triple killed. I hope not, but yes.

741
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 1: So these bogs were important to ancient Europeans. You know,

742
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 1: there's an archaeologist and an author named Melanie Giles, and

743
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 1: she told the BBC, we see bogs as empty places.

744
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 1: But that's not how the people in the Iron Age,

745
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 1: which is where Lindo Man was. That's not how people

746
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 1: in the Iron Age saw them. They were taking fuel

747
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 1: from the bog, they were cutting turf, they were taking

748
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,959
Speaker 1: iron ore, they're making weapons, you know, there's a lot

749
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: coming out of it. And they were hunting the BirdLife.

750
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 1: So the bogs were very productive, rich places for people

751
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:37,240
Speaker 1: in the Iron Age. Let me go through Lindo Man's

752
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 1: specific injuries. We have a lot of archaeologists who want

753
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 1: to know why did this happen to him? And we

754
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 1: have photos of some of the stuff. Were these ritualistic sacrifices?

755
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 1: So first we have experts addressing the missiletoe. So missletoe

756
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 1: is toxic. Do you have any idea, I mean, what

757
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 1: are the consequences of eating missiletoe? I think it's fascinating

758
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 1: for my kids, and they're pretty berries and everything that

759
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 1: would just make you very sick.

760
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 2: I'm assuming I have no knowledge whatsoever about the toxicity

761
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 2: of missletone.

762
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 3: I mean, mistletoe to me, is you know the what

763
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 3: is it? It's is it a fungus?

764
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 2: It grows on trees, you know, and of course it's

765
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:20,840
Speaker 2: the tradition is is if you stand underneath the missletoe,

766
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 2: you owe the other person a kiss or something along

767
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:23,720
Speaker 2: those lines.

768
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,839
Speaker 1: Yep, there you go. So, as I had said before,

769
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 1: mistletoe probably had some medicinal uses, and one was to

770
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:36,360
Speaker 1: calm down nervous disorders people with nervous disorders. And so

771
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,879
Speaker 1: they think that maybe before he died, the Lindo Man

772
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,759
Speaker 1: was given mistletoe to calm him down. It sounds like

773
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 1: he knew what was coming. The skin on his tourso

774
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 1: had higher levels of copper than elsewhere on his body.

775
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:52,240
Speaker 1: So they think he was painted with a copper pigment,

776
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 1: which might have been some ritual element to his death.

777
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 1: So a copper pigment is that paint? Is that what

778
00:43:59,480 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 1: that would be?

779
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:01,319
Speaker 3: Well, that's what it sounds like.

780
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:05,880
Speaker 2: Wow, you know, I know, different paints used different metals,

781
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 2: you know, in order to get a certain color. So

782
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 2: typically copper either has that kind of that goldish color

783
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 2: or if it's oxidized that now you have that.

784
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 3: Greenish hue to it. So maybe one of those two colors.

785
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. So I mean you get closer and closer.

786
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,320
Speaker 1: So this could have been some sort of ritualistic sacrifice.

787
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: So he had a cord made of animal sinew tied

788
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 1: around his neck along with it looks like ligature marks.

789
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:37,879
Speaker 1: One of the things that's interesting is that you've got

790
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 1: two neck vertebrae that were broken. It says his neck

791
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 1: was gashed, and there are archaeologists who said that he

792
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 1: was probably strangled from behind before having his throat slashed.

793
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:51,880
Speaker 1: I have no idea how you would figure out what

794
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:56,760
Speaker 1: that order would be. But he also had broken ribs

795
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,360
Speaker 1: and a stab wound to his chest. All happened, It

796
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,280
Speaker 1: sounds like at the same time, all at once.

797
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, a homicide victim.

798
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. His goal was fractured by something heavy

799
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:12,720
Speaker 1: that left a V shaped gash, like an axe maybe,

800
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 1: and they did a CT scan on him. It showed

801
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:19,360
Speaker 1: that his head swelled and bruised, indicating that the injury

802
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 1: did not result in immediate death, and so he had

803
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 1: been alive long enough for the wound to begin healing.

804
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 1: Is that what swelled and bruised means that it was

805
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 1: starting to heal, and that's how they can kind of

806
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:33,880
Speaker 1: tell that he was alive longer.

807
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 2: Well, it's showing that the body is responding to the injury.

808
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:41,720
Speaker 2: When I hear the term heal or healing, that's indicating, Okay,

809
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 2: now the tissue is starting to repair itself. And I'm

810
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 2: not sure that that's what they are saying. What I'm

811
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 2: hearing is is that, Okay, the tissue responded to the injury.

812
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 2: It's swelling. You have the bruising, so there's still blood

813
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 2: flowing at the time that that injury occurred. But this

814
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:03,400
Speaker 2: isn't necessarily something you can say is a result of

815
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 2: an injury that happened anti mortem. All you can say

816
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:10,280
Speaker 2: it's perry mortem, because even if the person is technically dead,

817
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:14,879
Speaker 2: the tissues will still respond in a way that they

818
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 2: received an injury. So that's where I would probably say

819
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 2: this in all likelihood, this blow to the head is

820
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 2: occurring contemporaneous to these other acts of violence against him.

821
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:30,400
Speaker 1: Well, and then on top of that, so hold on,

822
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 1: he's had broken ribs. They think that somebody like something

823
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 1: like a human knee struck him in the back, which

824
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 1: broke one of his ribs. He's got a wound to

825
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 1: his chest, there's a kind of rope thing around his

826
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:47,720
Speaker 1: neck with ligature marks. Two of his neck vertebrae are broken,

827
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:51,799
Speaker 1: his neck was slashed, and his skull was fractured. And

828
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 1: then on top of that, they find water in his lungs,

829
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:57,880
Speaker 1: so they think that he they left him face down

830
00:46:58,120 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 1: in the bog.

831
00:46:58,800 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes sense.

832
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 2: Gosh obviously very awful and into his life, but all

833
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 2: of these injuries could have occurred very rapidly to him.

834
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 2: You know, you can have multiple offenders that are inflicting

835
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 2: different injuries, and he's being stomped, you know, in some ways,

836
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:21,360
Speaker 2: you know, I'm struggling outside of this maybe the finding

837
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 2: the copper, you know, where they're saying that that might

838
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:30,359
Speaker 2: be indicative of ritualistic you know, his injuries very much

839
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:34,359
Speaker 2: are a line up with he's a homicide victim, and

840
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:39,080
Speaker 2: there's multiple modalities of violence being used against him. Now

841
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:40,840
Speaker 2: that could be done by one person, that could be

842
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:44,319
Speaker 2: done by a group, you know, So it's hard to

843
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 2: truly reconstruct, you know, the why he's he's killed in

844
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 2: the manner that he's killed. When I initially hear ritual,

845
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:57,840
Speaker 2: I'm looking for something that has a certain it's.

846
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 1: Like a set of rules basically, right where you can

847
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,320
Speaker 1: identify him and say, oh, yeah, I've seen this before,

848
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 1: this is the way they do this.

849
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 2: Right, That's exactly kind of what I was thinking is ritualistic.

850
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 2: It's something ritual is something that has done time and

851
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:13,839
Speaker 2: time again in a certain order.

852
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 3: That's the point of it, exactly.

853
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 2: So that's where I always think, Okay, there was evidence

854
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 2: that let's say he's you know, drawn and quartered, you know,

855
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 2: something along those lines, versus what appears to be a

856
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:30,480
Speaker 2: just a mass attack of violence against him.

857
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think one of the things that I

858
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 1: don't know about the ritualistic aspect of it they do

859
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 1: talk about the injuries a little bit, saying, now, let's

860
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 1: keep in mind he's a thousand years old and he's

861
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 1: been for a thousand years under very heavy layers of peat,

862
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 1: and they're wondering, experts do wonder how much of these

863
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:55,799
Speaker 1: injuries could be wear and tear basically from being you know,

864
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 1: in this area for so long. Let me show you

865
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:02,759
Speaker 1: this is what but they think he looked like, you know,

866
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:08,319
Speaker 1: good looking guy. And this is his skull where I

867
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:12,280
Speaker 1: think they're pointing to. This is an infrared photo showing

868
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 1: not only the injury on top, but also the splitting

869
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:15,960
Speaker 1: of the skull at the back. I don't know if

870
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 1: this is going to tell you anything. I don't know

871
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:19,840
Speaker 1: if Pete would cause this, I don't who knows.

872
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm really unable to make out this photograph. They

873
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 2: say it's an infrared photograph, and so oftentimes that different

874
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:35,240
Speaker 2: wavelengths of light are absorbed or fluoresce from different substances. Infrared,

875
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 2: of course, also can be utilized to show different temperatures

876
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 2: in various objects. Here, this just looks like a blob

877
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 2: to me. This record this is where Yeah, there has

878
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 2: to be an expert that is evaluating you know what

879
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 2: this infrared photograph is showing. Now when they start saying

880
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 2: that some of his injuries that you described to me

881
00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 2: are possibly from you know, let's say, hannical stresses of

882
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 2: being buried in this this bog and this peat.

883
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 3: I mean, the.

884
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 2: Only thing that I could maybe wonder about is, you know,

885
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:13,440
Speaker 2: like let's say the broken ribs, Yeah, something along those lines,

886
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:18,720
Speaker 2: some of the mechanical forces on the surface of his body,

887
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 2: compression of his body. But when you start talking about

888
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:29,280
Speaker 2: depressed skull, fractures, incisions to his neck, sinew wrapped around

889
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:34,719
Speaker 2: his neck, you know, yeah, obviously probably most of what

890
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 2: is being observed on his body was you know, at

891
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 2: the hands of another.

892
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 1: As they say, yeah, and I think so, I was

893
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:43,319
Speaker 1: going to show you this is a top view. Can

894
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 1: you see this of the head wound thought to be

895
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:47,280
Speaker 1: done with an axe on his head?

896
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm looking at a photograph which shows his head.

897
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 3: His head's turned to the right.

898
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 2: He looks in this photograph to be completely bald or

899
00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 2: devoid of head hair, but there is towards the base

900
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 2: of the head it's technically the top of his head,

901
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:08,000
Speaker 2: but towards the bottom of this photograph. I'm just going

902
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 2: to describe it from a technical term. This looks like

903
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 2: a laceration from a very significant blow. This is where

904
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 2: the skin the skin has due to the crushing action

905
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 2: of a blunt object, has split apart. But it's irregular,

906
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 2: you know, this is a typical laceration from it's a

907
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 2: broader type of object. And though I can't, you have

908
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:37,399
Speaker 2: to rely on the fact that others are saying that

909
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:40,319
Speaker 2: he had a depressed skull fracture, I would say that

910
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 2: that looks like there's likely a depressed skull fracture underneath

911
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:45,799
Speaker 2: that significant laceration.

912
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, they have a This is a close up of

913
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 1: the head wound. I don't know if that's helpful either,

914
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:54,400
Speaker 1: but I mean, regardless, I'm not sure heavy concentrations of

915
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:56,640
Speaker 1: pete would cause us. I did Paul for a moment,

916
00:51:56,800 --> 00:52:01,360
Speaker 1: wonder how many other excavators came in and Nick tim

917
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:03,920
Speaker 1: or something. I mean, isn't it Yeah, I mean we've

918
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:06,239
Speaker 1: talked about the machinery could cause some stuff too.

919
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:08,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and this is where you know, with

920
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:14,720
Speaker 2: contemporary bodies, you know, looking for evidence that these injuries

921
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 2: occurred anti mortem, you know, during life, versus being paramortem.

922
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:23,759
Speaker 2: So let's say, like fractured ribs. You know, anthropologists, you know,

923
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 2: if you have a skeletal remains and you have let's

924
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:30,879
Speaker 2: say the body's buried, and an excavator comes a log

925
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:33,840
Speaker 2: and digs a body up, you can tell if those

926
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:37,400
Speaker 2: bones were fractured as a result of, you know, the

927
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:40,439
Speaker 2: kind of the finding of the body, versus they were

928
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 2: fractured as a result of let's say the homicide when

929
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 2: the victim was still alive. Because fresh bones fracture differently

930
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 2: than desiccated bones, well, it's the same, it's going to

931
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:54,680
Speaker 2: be the same thing, and taking it evaluating his injuries,

932
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 2: I just don't know how much variance from what we

933
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:01,719
Speaker 2: experience with contemporary body. Would they still be able to

934
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 2: see let's say, hemorrhaging in the wound margins, you know,

935
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:08,080
Speaker 2: in such a preserved body that's thousands of years old,

936
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:11,000
Speaker 2: or would that have leached out and you can't see that,

937
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 2: you know, And that's just part of the I think

938
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:17,919
Speaker 2: the complexity of evaluating his injuries as to when did

939
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:21,319
Speaker 2: they exactly occur, because it's not like we have studies,

940
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:25,280
Speaker 2: you know, in terms of showing, okay, this is how

941
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:30,400
Speaker 2: this type of injury would appear after two thousand years

942
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 2: to determine whether or not it's something an expert would

943
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:35,320
Speaker 2: be able to say, yes, that was something that occurred

944
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 2: and was cause of death.

945
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:41,880
Speaker 1: Well, you know, to conclude this very strange true crime story.

946
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 1: You know, there are people who are trying to figure

947
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:49,400
Speaker 1: out still, was he robbed? Was this a sacrifice? Who knows?

948
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:52,600
Speaker 1: I mean, was he drawn out there? My notes talk

949
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:55,560
Speaker 1: about this is a remote area, which is you know,

950
00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:58,200
Speaker 1: I don't know what it was like a thousand years

951
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:00,840
Speaker 1: ago in the Iron Age. Maybe this wasn't remote. Maybe

952
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:02,760
Speaker 1: this is where a lot of people set up shop

953
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:05,640
Speaker 1: and it wasn't a remote place. You know, we don't know.

954
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:09,720
Speaker 1: But two more bodies were found, all kind of dating

955
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:12,520
Speaker 1: to the same time frame. All it sounds like about

956
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:16,040
Speaker 1: Iron Age time frame, and you know they're studying all

957
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:20,240
Speaker 1: of them and it's pretty amazing. Seventy pieces in nineteen

958
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 1: eighty seven, seventy pieces or more of human bone and

959
00:54:23,719 --> 00:54:26,920
Speaker 1: tissue were recovered. And these are just you know, more

960
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:29,719
Speaker 1: and more and they're pulling them out. So the preservation

961
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:35,759
Speaker 1: of murder sites most likely is important, but particularly important

962
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:39,040
Speaker 1: when you have victims and when you have an area

963
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 1: like England that has just been inhabited for thousands of years.

964
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:44,400
Speaker 1: So I love stories like these.

965
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:46,320
Speaker 3: So I'm going to make a prediction. Cape.

966
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 2: Okay, I think you're going to buy some little cottage

967
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:53,240
Speaker 2: out there in that bog and set up your atmosphere

968
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:57,879
Speaker 2: in this dark, creepy way, and then in the middle

969
00:54:57,880 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 2: of the night you're going to be out there looking

970
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:00,760
Speaker 2: for hu and skulls.

971
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:01,480
Speaker 3: How's that?

972
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:07,920
Speaker 1: Yes, probably that's awful. Well, listen, Never did I think

973
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:11,960
Speaker 1: a story of murder from a thousand years ago would

974
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:14,759
Speaker 1: teach me so much about present day crime. But I'm

975
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:17,520
Speaker 1: always interested in learning about how bodies are preserved and

976
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 1: what you can find and time of death, and so

977
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:21,400
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting.

978
00:55:22,239 --> 00:55:26,480
Speaker 2: I think I learned a new interview tactic. If I

979
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:32,080
Speaker 2: have a suspect whose wife has gone missing, I'm going

980
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 2: to walk into the interview room with a skull in hand,

981
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:37,640
Speaker 2: put it down on the table, and say we found her.

982
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:44,040
Speaker 1: We found her. She's been triple killed. Triple killed. Okay, Well,

983
00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:47,600
Speaker 1: next week we will have a much more contemporary case.

984
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:50,239
Speaker 1: It could be from the fifteen hundreds, but we'll say

985
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:54,799
Speaker 1: it always for sure. Then this one, Thank you for

986
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:57,279
Speaker 1: joining me on this trip, way far back than we've

987
00:55:57,280 --> 00:55:57,719
Speaker 1: ever been.

988
00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:00,040
Speaker 3: Now, it's still fascinating though, I loved it.

989
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:07,760
Speaker 1: Thanks, thank you. This has been an exactly right production

990
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:11,399
Speaker 1: for our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot

991
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 1: com slash Buried Bones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.

992
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:20,680
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.

993
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:23,239
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

994
00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:25,799
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

995
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:28,080
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

996
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:32,480
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Danielle Kramer.

997
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:36,080
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

998
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:37,400
Speaker 1: bary Bones pod.

999
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1000
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:42,440
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1001
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:44,680
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and

1002
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:49,080
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's Cold

1003
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:50,919
Speaker 1: Cases is also available now