1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of I 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, 3 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:17,159 Speaker 1: and there's Chuck and Jerry's here, Ish and this is 4 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 1: stuff you should know. Ish. This is full on stuff 5 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 1: you should know, Charles. Remember that point. I feel like 6 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: it was about ten eight to ten years ago where 7 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: everyone was just saying ish on the end of things 8 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: instead of saying, like, you know, finding the real word 9 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: that they were looking for, so so like an approximation 10 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: of the word or or of the thing they were describing. 11 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 1: So like I'm saying, no, not even that, like when 12 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:53,199 Speaker 1: there's like a real word that could be used and 13 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: they would just the ish on another word. I don't 14 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: know what you're talking about. No, yeah, it was. It 15 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: was the thing it swept the nation? When was it? 16 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: Or maybe I'm thinking of the Marcarina. That's that's what 17 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 1: you're thinking. Okay, alright, man, that really did sweep the nature. 18 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:11,680 Speaker 1: Remember that who let the dogs out? It was like 19 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: a one. Did they ever find that out? No? I 20 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 1: think it was a rhetorical question. It's the kind of 21 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: rhetorical question you could ask yourself, Chuck while you're meditating. Yeah, 22 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: but first thanks thanks, but I'm gonna step all over 23 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,400 Speaker 1: the segway because because before we get started, Chuck, I 24 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 1: want to do if you'll allow me, another shout out 25 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: for my little niece Mela's movie, big time movie called 26 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: No Exit that's coming out as far as when this 27 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: episode drops tomorrow, so February, No matter when you hear this, 28 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: just immediately go onto Hulu subscribe if you haven't yet, 29 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: and check out my niece Mila in No Exit because 30 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: she is the trailer amazing. What do you think it 31 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: looks like a taut thriller? She looks fantastic from what 32 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: you can tell from a trailer. You just saved all 33 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: the bad parts for the movie. I don't think they did. 34 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 1: I was reading an interview with the director and he 35 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 1: was saying like she was. She was doing such an 36 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 1: amazing job of being terrified and freaked out and everything 37 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: that like after in between takes, like the other customers 38 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:19,399 Speaker 1: would be like are you okay? And she'd be like, yeah, 39 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 1: why are you okay? And you know I'm acting right exactly. 40 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: She's like, it's acting you like John Love. Yeah, So 41 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: on Hulu No Exit February. My niece Mila just kills 42 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: it there you go, can't wait. Thanks again for that, chuck, 43 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: So let's get started. Thank you for not passing judgment 44 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: on that either way, Uh, your re siguing because we're 45 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: times passing judgment. It means I'm not being mindful because 46 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 1: a big part of mindfulness you just did not judge. Yeah, 47 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: So that's like, this is one of those ones, you know, 48 00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: those episodes where we just start talking about the thing 49 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 1: without defining it. Um. This is not going to be 50 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: one of those episodes because I think it would be 51 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: kind of rough otherwise, you know. Yeah, And I guess 52 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 1: if you're gonna define mindfulness, you need to kind of 53 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: go back in time. I mean, I guess we could 54 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: hop in the way back machine. We haven't done that, 55 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: it's been a while. Let's pull the old cover off. 56 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 1: It's quite dusty in here, and a little bit of 57 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: mill do, Little mill do. There's some old crystals boxes. 58 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: Those are yours? Remember you had them accidentally delivered to 59 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 1: your house? Right, and then we went back to the 60 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: old West to celebrate you're thinking of back to the future. 61 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: Three ah, right, right right? I called Mary steam Virgin, 62 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: meaning if I did to play her, not date her 63 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: or anything, Oh, Dave Mary steam Burgin on her? Isn't that? Um? 64 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: I really that's a Ted Danson's old squeeze, right, it's 65 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: his current squeeze. I'm not gonna fight. Are they still together? Yeah? 66 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: I think so. Gosh they've been together for a while. Yeah. 67 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: Good couple. Okay, great, good stuff. So who knew we 68 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: were gonna be talking about ted dancing at the beginning 69 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 1: of Mine could richer gear, but ted dancing is a 70 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: big surprise. If we get in the way back machine 71 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: and go back uh in time to sort of the 72 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 1: beginning of Buddhism, you'd have to look at the language 73 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: Polly and the words sati Polly is p a l 74 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 1: i satis s a t i. There are a lot 75 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 1: of different words for mindfulness, but the one that we 76 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:39,599 Speaker 1: kind of identify with it's kind of been used most 77 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: from Polly, which is a Middle Indo Aryan liturgical language 78 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 1: from the early branches of Buddhism. iBOT to take in 79 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 1: the reason that that Poully is so important is because 80 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 1: they say that it was the language of the Buddha 81 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 1: and at the very least it was the first language 82 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 1: that the Buddhas were which have been passed down orally, um, 83 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: we're written down in so it's like legit old school 84 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: Buddhist thinking and teachings. And one of the basic parts 85 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 1: of that is, like you said, sati, which is has 86 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: been translated to mindfulness, but it was translated by a 87 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 1: British colonial administrator, wasn't it. That's right, And it kind 88 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 1: of more accurately as translated as memory of the present, 89 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: which I think is a really kind of a cool 90 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:29,280 Speaker 1: way to look at mindfulness. Yeah. Absolutely, it really kind 91 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 1: of reveals what what's what's going on, especially once you 92 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 1: kind of learned a little more about it, you're like, 93 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 1: that actually works about as perfectly as as can be. 94 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: But it got it got translated, um into the word mindfulness, 95 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: sati into mindfulness by a British colonial administrator in Ceylon 96 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 1: which is now Sri Lanka, back in the eighteen eighties. 97 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: So it was some British guy who said sati means 98 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 1: mindfulness and actually kind of gave it to us today, 99 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: although there was a long period where it had been forgotten. 100 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: But I think you don't really talk about mindfulness even 101 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: though it's changed so dramatically, especially in the last decade 102 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: or so, without kind of describing what it was originally 103 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: meant to describe, what it still describes if you're a 104 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 1: practicing Buddhist um and that is that like you are 105 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 1: not only like paying attention to the moment and um 106 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 1: like like experiencing this moment without letting your thoughts wander 107 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 1: to the past or the future or anything like that, 108 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: but that whatever you're experiencing in the moment, no matter 109 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 1: what it is, you're experiencing with equanimity, which means that 110 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 1: you're not passing judgment on it as good or bad 111 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 1: or anything else. It just is And it sounds easy 112 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 1: to describe, but if you've ever tried it, it's one 113 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 1: of the hardest things a human being can never set 114 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 1: out to do. Yeah, I mean, I think it's very 115 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: very natural for human too, ah, seek out and contemplate 116 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 1: and think about the things that feel good and please them, 117 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 1: and to try and stuff down and get rid of 118 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 1: and avoid things that either hurt literally hurt or emotionally hurt, 119 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: or things that are painful or unpleasant. And Boyle's a 120 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: that is a tough thing to overcome, my friend. Uh, 121 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: just the condition of being human makes that very difficult. 122 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: But yeah, and you just nailed it on the head, 123 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: not once but twice, Chuck, when you said that it's 124 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: a very human condition and part of sati. The point 125 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: of sati as far as like Buddhists are concerned, is 126 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: that it's a step that you take on the path 127 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: to enlightenment to free yourself from the cycle of like 128 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: life and death and rebirth and to become like a 129 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: truly enlightened being that's freed from all of that. And 130 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: so you have to free yourself from that human condition, 131 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: and a big part of that is to free yourself 132 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: from yearning from wanting. Because yearning and wanting or being 133 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: repelled by something and wanting to get away from it, 134 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: there are two sides of the same coin as far 135 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: as sati is concerned, which is um you are wishing 136 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: that something is different or was different than it actually is, 137 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: and then that's the basis of suffering, and suffering is 138 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 1: the thing that keeps you in that cycle of life 139 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: and death and rebirth. So meditating to become mindful and 140 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 1: non judgmental about your present experience is one step toward 141 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: relieving yourself with suffering and then freeing yourself from that 142 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: shackle being born and reborn and reborn again. Well, you 143 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: and my friend have just spoken about the noble truths, 144 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 1: in part because craving is the cause of suffering is 145 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: the second noble truth. And to cease that craving will 146 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: bring about the ceasing of that suffering, which is the 147 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: third noble truth. And basically, experiencing the moment without and 148 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: everything about the moment without judgment is sort of the 149 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 1: the goal. And you know, for modern you know, we're 150 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 1: gonna talk a lot about sort of the beginnings of 151 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: mindfulness and kind of how it's become um, kind of 152 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: a hip thing to do here in the United States, uh, 153 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: starting in about the nineteen seventies and on and especially today. 154 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: But we're we're kind of talking in American modern terms 155 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: about stress and distressing and the Buddhists have a term 156 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 1: for that, which is duca d u k k h 157 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 1: a uh. And that is, you know, again, to avoid 158 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: or destroy something that we don't like, and what we 159 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: usually don't like is something that's going to put a 160 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 1: stress on us, right exactly. And they're saying, like, dude, 161 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: this is part of the point of life. I'm reading 162 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 1: this really amazing book by Tick not Han right now. Um, 163 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:42,959 Speaker 1: rereading it. Actually it's when I was when you just 164 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: kind of go back and reread very like easy slim volume. 165 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,959 Speaker 1: It's called No Mud, No Lotus, and it basically says 166 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:53,679 Speaker 1: like without suffering, you can't have happiness and vice versa. 167 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: Pretty pretty basic stuff. But like he really gets into 168 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 1: explaining how to confront suffering and understand that it's just 169 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: part of life. And that's a huge part of the 170 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: Buddhist approach to mindfulness. It's not to get away from suffering, 171 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: is to recognize it as it is and also simultaneously 172 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: not make a bigger deal out of it than it is, 173 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: because suffering is enough. It's bad enough as it is, 174 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: but another part of the human condition is to make 175 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: it way worse by anticipating it, worrying about it, um like, 176 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: focusing on it after it happens. There's a lot of 177 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 1: stuff we do to our own suffering that explodes it, 178 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:34,319 Speaker 1: and part of mindfulness training is to is to stop 179 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 1: doing that as well too. You ain't kidding, uh, And 180 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 1: the lack of judgment is a big, big part of 181 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: all of this. And we're gonna talk quite a bit 182 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: here and there about John cabot Zin, who is uh, 183 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: it's like easy, far and away the sort of leader 184 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: of the modern American mindfulness movement in a lot of 185 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: different ways. And we'll get to him in more detail later. 186 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: But he says that awareness that arises through paying attention 187 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: on purpose, and that's another big part of it. It's 188 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: it's a very purposeful practice. Yeah, but not meditation, which 189 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: we'll get to that as well, because meditation is a 190 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:11,559 Speaker 1: true physical practice that you in mental practice, whereas mindfulness 191 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: is more of a state of being that you're trying 192 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 1: to get to. But he says on purpose in the 193 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: present moment and non non judgmentally, they always have to 194 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,559 Speaker 1: kind of hammer home the lack of judgment being a 195 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: key part right exactly. Um, And he's he's a proponent 196 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 1: in kind of one of the founders of what you 197 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: can refer to as secular mindfulness, which is this current 198 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 1: incarnation of mindfulness that's sweeping the West. It's like you said, 199 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: hip that's been kind of like removed deliberately, as we'll see, 200 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:44,839 Speaker 1: removed from its Buddhist roots and Buddhist context to make 201 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 1: it more palatable and scientific seeming. Yeah, secular, secular stripped 202 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: of all the religion and maybe we can sell it 203 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:57,559 Speaker 1: to Americans exactly, and then a but the yeah, Um, 204 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 1: The upshot of all this, though, Chuck, is that no 205 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: matter who you are, where you're coming from, if you're 206 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 1: talking about mindfulness, you're talking about paying attention to the 207 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: present moment and doing the best you can at not 208 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 1: judging anything that's going on in that present experience and 209 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 1: just taking it on its faith value and engaging in 210 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 1: it fully. That's mindfulness in a nutshell. Yeah. And it's 211 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 1: not anything that the Buddhists um had a corner on. 212 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 1: They just probably did it better because all different kinds 213 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: of religions throughout antiquity had you know, chanting or some 214 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 1: kind of mindfulness practice, maybe prayers or through songs or dance. Uh. 215 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: You know that that kind of thing has been around 216 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:41,079 Speaker 1: as long as people have been practicing religion. So the 217 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: Buddhists did not invent it, but I think they got 218 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,559 Speaker 1: it fairly right. So, um, let's talk a little more 219 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 1: about how we got here today, Um, historically speaking, after break, 220 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: what do you think about that? It sounds great. I'm 221 00:12:53,840 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: gonna breathe in the meantime, Hey, let me teach you 222 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 1: something I've been using that tickna Han taught me, not personally, 223 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: but through his writing in a book that was published 224 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:31,959 Speaker 1: that I purchased with money. Smash your hand with a hammer, Yeah, 225 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: he said, try to focus on anything else chump. Uh. 226 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: There's a bunch of different mantras you can say, and 227 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: I'm not even sure that's the right word, but um, 228 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: one that I keep using is And it's just striking 229 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: what taking a breath and deliberately focusing on that breath, 230 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: just breathing in once and breathing out once can do 231 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,199 Speaker 1: to like just suck you right out of wherever your 232 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 1: mind is, um, in the past or the future. It's 233 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 1: it's really striking what how it can do that? But um, 234 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 1: his was, Um, it's a take breathing in. I noticed 235 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:10,959 Speaker 1: that I'm alive and breathing out. I'm happy to be alive, 236 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: and just doing it once like immediately brings me back 237 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:17,439 Speaker 1: into the present moment. And it's really cool. I like it. 238 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 1: It's all very new for me, but I think it's Uh, 239 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: it's pretty cool. Yeah, there's a lot of value there. Um. 240 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: And you know, you can like practice something like this 241 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: and those breathing techniques. It's not exclusive to mindfulness or meditation. 242 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: Or Buddhism. Uh. You know, that's a great technique if 243 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: you have kids. I found that, you know, with if 244 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: my daughter is having a bad time, just kind of 245 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: get her to slow down and take a couple of 246 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: good deep breaths. Always a good thing to do. Uh. 247 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: And Emily, who you know, someone who has a lot 248 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: of anxieties in her life as a struggling small business owner. 249 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: We will do this thing where we have hug breathing, 250 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: where I will go up to her and we will 251 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: have a good tight bear hug embrace and we'll breathe 252 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: in together and it's sort of like doubles the power 253 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: of it. Wow, that's neat, Chuck, Is that your own? 254 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: Did you come up with that? Yeah? I mean I'm sure. 255 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: I mean I didn't get it from anywhere, but I'm 256 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: sure I didn't invent that. It sounds like a biking 257 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: mindfulness like Hell's Angels. Sure, yeah, that's the Hell's Angels technique. 258 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: You came up. You can call it whatever you want. 259 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: It's your invention. It's a good one. Well. Yeah, there's 260 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 1: something about breathing together that close physically. It's it's pretty powerful. 261 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: So if you if you went back, Um, a few 262 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: hundred years, a couple hundred years even, and you spoke 263 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: to any Buddhists around the world and said, hey, how 264 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: often do you do mindfulness meditation? They would look at 265 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: you like they had no idea where you're talking about. 266 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: And if you said, you know, sati, they'd say, oh, 267 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 1: that's not for us. That's for like the monks and 268 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: the nuns up in the caves in the mountains, Like, 269 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 1: we don't do that kind of stuff where sup For Buddhists. 270 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: We care about morality and we worship local deities and 271 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: all that stuff. But that's that's kind of advance that's 272 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 1: more than than the average Buddhist does. And it wasn't 273 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: until I think the late nineteenth century in Burma that 274 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: that was finally kind of broken up and and meditation 275 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: and mindfulness together, we're kind of introduced for the first 276 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: time to like lay Buddhists, like just the normal, everyday, 277 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: average Buddhists living their life. Yeah, this is pretty cool. Like, 278 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: I know, we love it when we can kind of 279 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: pinpoint when things happen or when things change. Uh, And 280 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 1: this is one of them. On November five, this is 281 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: when the British Imperial army uh conquered Burma and said, King, uh, 282 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: we're gonna mispronounce some of these thebol maybe. I think 283 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: that's right, you're out of here. And that king was 284 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: promoting mindfulness and promoting Buddhist institutions throughout the nation. The 285 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: Brits of course, said, now we're not gonna really do that. 286 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 1: So it fell to the lay people to get organized, 287 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: to find new places to meet, uh, to find their 288 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 1: own you know, gathering grounds, and a lot of times 289 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 1: these were monasteries and it would go through monks, but 290 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:12,919 Speaker 1: they would it basically went to them to kind of 291 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 1: figure it out because it wasn't I don't want to 292 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 1: say state sponsored, but it kind of state sponsored, yeah, 293 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: or state supported or something like that. Yeah, yeah, but 294 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: so and so rather than being like, oh, I don't 295 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,360 Speaker 1: know who, I guess we're not Buddhists anymore, they took 296 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: it by the horns and like they did something with it. 297 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,120 Speaker 1: But one of the outcroppings of that was that like 298 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: these monks who used to just go meditate out in 299 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 1: the like in the mountains or the hills or in 300 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:40,120 Speaker 1: the woods, were now now had audiences of like everyday 301 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:42,679 Speaker 1: people who were practicing Buddhists that they were teaching this 302 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 1: stuff too, and it was it was one of these guys, 303 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 1: Letty Sayado, who was a Buddhist monk, who said, you 304 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: know what, this isn't just for us, this is for everybody. 305 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 1: And closely in Letty Sayadow's footsteps came Minga and sayo 306 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: say y aw, say yea. I think that's right, and 307 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: that he that monk was the first one to actually 308 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 1: teach um mindfulness and meditation to regular people, I think 309 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: around nineteen eleven. Yeah, I mean it's cool stuff. Like 310 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 1: I love the idea that Letty uh say Adel kind 311 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:20,959 Speaker 1: of put forth, which was you don't have to go 312 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: to a monastery even like we've set these up for 313 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:25,919 Speaker 1: you and you can. You don't have to retreat to 314 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: a cave. You don't have to you don't even have 315 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: to go into a deep meditative state or anything like. 316 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 1: Just momentary bits of mindfulness are very helpful. Uh. And 317 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: that's a good way to reach regular lay people. And 318 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 1: I think through practice is when Sail came along and said, hey, 319 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 1: that all sounds great, and buddy, I'm gonna teach it right, 320 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: so the the people in what is now my me 321 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 1: and Mar are the ones who um kind of broke out, 322 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:59,160 Speaker 1: broke mindfulness and meditation out of it's it's little slumber 323 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:03,239 Speaker 1: sure cage or something like that, and democratized it a 324 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: little bit. But it was as far as the people 325 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: in the West are concerned, it was the Japanese and 326 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 1: their development of Zen Buddhism that we have to thank 327 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 1: because this is you can pretty much trace a direct 328 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: line between um, the mindfulness and the meditation and the 329 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: approach to Buddhism in the West today back to the 330 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: twentieth century Japan and specifically a guy named Dai Setsu 331 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: Ta Taro d T. Suzuki. So d T. Suzuki was 332 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: kind of a what's called a Buddhist modernist thinker who said, Um, 333 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 1: there's different things we can do with this, but this 334 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: approach is a little more rationally, a little less dogmatically, 335 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 1: and open it up to people like our friends and 336 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: what's soon to be me and Mar and um. Not 337 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: only that, let's let's start relating to the West a 338 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: little more. And DTI Suzuki actually kind of carried this message, 339 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 1: this idea of Zen Buddhism with him over to America 340 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 1: in Europe, and it just started to catch on like wildfire. Yeah. 341 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 1: I think it's really interesting too that it was another 342 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: active war that led to you know, that helped give 343 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: rise to someone like Suzuki, just like when the Brits 344 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 1: over threw Burma, when the U. S. Navy attacked Tokyo 345 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:22,199 Speaker 1: Harbor in eighteen fifty three. Uh, there was you know, 346 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: basically Japan was like, you know, we gotta we gotta 347 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: start relating to the West a little bit more and 348 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:31,159 Speaker 1: sort of modernize. And this was known as the Meiji Restoration. 349 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: And part of that was saying, hey, Shinto is going 350 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: to be our religion, our main religion, and not Buddhism, 351 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 1: which led the Buddhist to say, hey, maybe we should 352 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,159 Speaker 1: modernize our religion as well, to you know, so we 353 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 1: don't get left by the wayside. And that gave rise 354 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 1: to someone like Deti Suzuki. Right. So it was from 355 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: that modernization that um, Buddhist modernism came about. And it's 356 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 1: basically what you would recognize as Buddhism today, like very thoughtful, 357 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,919 Speaker 1: very um uh, interior dwelling, um, the idea that the 358 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:05,919 Speaker 1: universe has all connected. All these were like Buddhist thoughts before, 359 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: but it was it was Buddhism allowing itself to be 360 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: influenced by Modernism and by other groups like the Romantics 361 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: and the Transcendentalists, right, so they jumped on it big time. 362 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 1: It was pretty It was like a confluence of perfect 363 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 1: timing as far as coming to the United States and 364 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,440 Speaker 1: like the counterculture ready for this, but in a weird way. 365 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 1: It was like the United States, unbeknownst to the counterculture 366 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 1: Beats and then later the Hippies um that their predecessors, 367 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 1: like the Transidentalists, had had pre influenced what was coming 368 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 1: back to them. So it was already in a very 369 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 1: palatable form for Americans who were open to the idea 370 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 1: of like mind expansion and taking acid and um, you know, 371 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: and meditating and were just open to the ideas of 372 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:55,360 Speaker 1: other cultures of becoming like more in tune with the universe. 373 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 1: It was they were just waiting for it, and it 374 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,359 Speaker 1: came to them in the and in the briefcase I 375 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,640 Speaker 1: guess of D. T. Suzuki um, and it just kind 376 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,199 Speaker 1: of took off from there. So the idea everything we 377 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: understand about mindfulness and meditation you can trace back to 378 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,640 Speaker 1: like D. T. Suzuki in those beats absolutely. And there 379 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: were three people in particular, uh, in the seventies and 380 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: sixties and seventies practicing this, Joseph Goldstein, Jack Cornfield and 381 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:27,640 Speaker 1: Sharon Salzburg who were not together but they studied separately 382 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 1: meditation in Burma, and then the mid seventies founded the 383 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:35,679 Speaker 1: Insight Meditation Society in Massachusetts, which became sort of the 384 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: center of the v Pasana meditation movement here in the 385 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,120 Speaker 1: United States. And they're they're still around, they're still doing 386 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: their thing. So um, it was from that same group. 387 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: There was actually a time where John cabot z In, 388 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 1: the guy you we mentioned earlier ze I, by the way, 389 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: not z In. That would be too far on the nose. 390 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:03,159 Speaker 1: Oh wait, what if his name was spelled z E 391 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: n Oh, I got boy. I was not paying to 392 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 1: the current experience very well, I'm sorry. That'd be like 393 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:18,400 Speaker 1: a boxer being named boxer. Uh, yeah, it would be right. 394 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: I was for some reason, I was going more towards 395 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:28,679 Speaker 1: the um cabernets in. Yeah. So he's known as the 396 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 1: godfather of modern mindfulness according to The Guardian at least, 397 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 1: which is a pretty legit newspaper. Um, and by the way, 398 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: thank you also to Olivia for helping us out with 399 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: this one. Chuck. She did, she did, um. But John 400 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: cabot Zin was among those people Jack Cornfield, great name, 401 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,360 Speaker 1: Sharon Salzburg, and J. Joseph Goldstein. He actually taught at 402 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: their UM Insight Meditation Society, and he was a big 403 00:23:56,280 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 1: time practitioner of Zen Buddhism and he had he was 404 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,359 Speaker 1: on like, uh, I guess, a meditation retreat and he 405 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 1: had a bit of insight well, I guess an epiphany 406 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 1: is probably what you call it. That he was meant 407 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: to help apply Buddhist techniques to help people who are 408 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 1: in pain. He had either a microbiology or molecular biology 409 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: degree and he ended up applying it to medicine and 410 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:25,439 Speaker 1: figuring out how to join Buddhist practices and medicine to 411 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: help people in the seventies and it really started to 412 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: take off from there. Yeah. I mean he sort of 413 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,880 Speaker 1: had the same idea as previous UH cultures, which was, hey, 414 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: if we want to UH and not sell for money, 415 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 1: but if we want to popularize this, we should get 416 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,920 Speaker 1: a little bit away from the religion part, the sort 417 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 1: of hippie dippy new Agi part. And he really wanted 418 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: to start talking in concrete terms about things that everyone 419 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 1: worried about, which was stress, and like, if you want 420 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 1: to make your life less stressful, here's here's a way 421 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: to do it, and more on mindfulness and less on meditation, 422 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 1: which was still a tough sell to mainstream America and 423 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: still is today. I think, yeah, but it's gotten less 424 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 1: and less. I feel like if he finally overcame the 425 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:18,159 Speaker 1: threshold that was you know, keeping it back in the 426 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: last like five ten years, and achieved what he was 427 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: looking for. I mean, think about mindfulness is everywhere today 428 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: and it is almost totally divorced from any kind of 429 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 1: religious connotations. It seems like a neuroscience tool more than 430 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,120 Speaker 1: anything the way that it stated in the West, and 431 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 1: that was his goal. He he was trying to to 432 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,440 Speaker 1: get it to the most people possible, Uh, study it scientifically, 433 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: and then apply it to help people. And specifically again, 434 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 1: he was initially looking at how it can help people 435 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 1: with pain. Um, and he came up with mindfulness based 436 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: stress reduction m B s R, which is still very 437 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: much in use today. And then there was an offshoot 438 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:07,439 Speaker 1: to chuck mindfulness based cognitive therapy and UM, that's that 439 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 1: takes CBT which is a proven type of talk therapy 440 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 1: UM used extensively in psychology and and applies John cabot 441 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:21,199 Speaker 1: Zin's approach to mindfulness to it, right. Yeah, And I 442 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: think one of the big tenants here is to interrupt 443 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 1: automatic thoughts and the automatic thoughts that can lead to 444 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 1: an automatic behavior. So the automatic thought might just be 445 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 1: your propensity to feel that stress and reach for a 446 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 1: drink immediately and not even think like, oh boy, I 447 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 1: need a drink because I'm stressed out and that will 448 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,919 Speaker 1: help out. It becomes this automatic thing. And he was 449 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,399 Speaker 1: all about and the practice of mindfulness is all about 450 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: disruption and disrupting that flow without judgment. Yeah, Because one 451 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,440 Speaker 1: of the big things in cognitive behavioral therapy is that 452 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,479 Speaker 1: you have a thought, your thought leads to a feeling, 453 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: and your feeling leads to a behavior. And oftentimes it's, 454 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: like you said, it's very destructive and you don't even 455 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,640 Speaker 1: realize it's going on UM until your life is kind 456 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 1: of falling apart or it's certainly not as good as 457 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: it could be. And it doesn't even have to be 458 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 1: a drink. It could be a donut, It could be 459 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,719 Speaker 1: yelling at at a cashier, at a um, you know, 460 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 1: a grocery store like all sorts of different things, and 461 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,479 Speaker 1: you are totally out of control of it. The idea 462 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:29,199 Speaker 1: behind this mindfulness, adding mindfulness to cognitive behavioral therapy is 463 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:34,120 Speaker 1: that you are training yourself to detach yourself from all 464 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,360 Speaker 1: thoughts and emotions so that you can evaluate them clearly, 465 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: so that none of them can jump out of nowhere 466 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,160 Speaker 1: pounce on you. And the next thing you know, you've 467 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: eaten a dozen donuts and had six scotches and you 468 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 1: have no idea why. You do have the idea why, 469 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: and you probably haven't gotten to that point because you've 470 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 1: stopped the whole process by recognizing it the moment it 471 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: began ideally theoretically on paper. That's the purpose of you 472 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 1: mindfulness to help, especially with with mental health. Yeah, there's 473 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,639 Speaker 1: um a journalist named Robert Wright, and he kind of 474 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:08,959 Speaker 1: put it in a way that I kind of like, 475 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 1: which was to think of your thoughts and emotions as transient. 476 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:15,879 Speaker 1: So it's not like that kind of goes back to 477 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 1: the no judgment thing. You can have these bad feelings 478 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 1: and bad emotions and bad tendencies, but if you allow, 479 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:24,919 Speaker 1: if you allow them to just flow through you, they 480 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:29,680 Speaker 1: become transient, they don't stick around. Uh, the same sort 481 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 1: of ideas that you you can't, um, why worry about 482 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: things that you can't control? But not in a uh 483 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: an office poster kind of way, you know what I mean. 484 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: It runs a bit deeper than that. It's not like 485 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 1: a Pollyanna thing. No. And as a matter of fact, 486 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 1: like if you want to trace it all the way 487 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 1: back to its original Buddhist roots, it's that like, we 488 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: have very little, if any control over life, and that 489 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: recognizing that will free us for um, all of our 490 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 1: desires and the idea that like we have to have 491 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: things and we want to hang onto it. Like it 492 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: just lets you let things flow by and you can 493 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: enjoy them and experience them as they come, rather than 494 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: hoping for the next one, needing the next donut um 495 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: or fearing the next loss. Uh, you just experience life 496 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 1: as it comes. That's kind of the point of that 497 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: of of understanding that everything is transient and impermanent, including 498 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: your own your own life, Like you're going to die 499 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 1: one day. There's ultimately the big like you know, like 500 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: bingo number. Yeah, Like that's ultimately what it's leading is 501 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: you're going to die you're you, yourself are impermanent, and 502 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: so understanding that through getting there through meditation, daily meditative 503 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 1: practice UM is is kind of the goal. Yeah, and 504 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 1: it's interesting they found that it's um even though something 505 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: like MBSR is more rooted in that sort of neuroscience 506 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: e thing and not uh, spirituality or religion. They found 507 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: it's sort of a chicken in the egg deal where 508 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: once you do participate m m BSR, you may become 509 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: more spiritual as a result, even though you weren't going in. 510 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: But I think the reason why is because even if 511 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: these people don't know it, even if they're at a 512 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: corporate mindfulness retreat, they're engaging in a deeply spiritual practice 513 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 1: that that it's they're kind of doing it wrong is 514 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 1: we'll see, but there's still it's still you know, part 515 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: of this very long established tradition that's that actually has 516 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 1: like legs. It's not it's not mumbo jumbo like. It 517 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: actually has a pronounced effect on on the human brain, 518 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 1: the human psyche, the outlook that we have on life. 519 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 1: And so depending on the context you're doing it, and 520 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 1: it can be very useful, it can be harmful, or 521 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 1: it can be totally useless in some cases too, But 522 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 1: it is a spiritual act, so it makes sense that 523 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: it would make you more interested in spirituality. Well, I 524 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 1: say we take our second break, if that's good, And 525 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 1: because we're stuff, you should know, we have to talk 526 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 1: about whether or not this works and if there have 527 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 1: been studies that tell us one way or the other. 528 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:35,479 Speaker 1: So we'll get into that right after this. All right, 529 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 1: it's fun to sit around and talk about mindfulness and 530 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 1: to just sort of zen out and lose ourselves, become 531 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: one with each other through these headphones. Yeah, man, you 532 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: sound like Rory Cochrane and days are confused. The new 533 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 1: man what was his name? Oh Slater? Was he Slater? 534 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 1: Maybe Peter? You happy? Give me drugs, man, Yeah, it's later, 535 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 1: you're right, get some from your mother. Man. It's funny. 536 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: I've seen him and he's been in a bunch of 537 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: stuff since then, and it's it's always impossible to see 538 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 1: him as anyone other than Slater. I mean, have you 539 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 1: he was on CSI Miami. I think for years and 540 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 1: years and years you're just waiting from her whip out 541 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 1: of Dubio. Yes, and he's all clean cut and everything, 542 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 1: and I still can't not see it. I totally agree 543 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 1: with He's not fooling anybody, all right, So does this 544 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 1: stuff work? Could? There have been plenty of studies, of course, 545 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 1: and there is a lot of evidence that mindfulness programs 546 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: can help people through emotional problems, through mental problems. Uh. 547 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,959 Speaker 1: They've done controlled trials of MBSR programs and clinical settings 548 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 1: and non clinical settings, and they generally found that they do. 549 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 1: And this is self reported stuff obviously, but they reduce 550 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: self reported anxiety depression uh and stress and increase well 551 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 1: being as opposed to people who got no treatment at all. Yeah, 552 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 1: so yes, it's I mean, it does seem to be effective. Um. 553 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 1: There's also especially with self reporting chok that seems to 554 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: be like the big one that if you if you 555 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: look at studies where they're using self reporting, like it 556 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: has the most pronounced effect um. Objective tests there does 557 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 1: seem to register some sort of effect like on the 558 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 1: objective experience of say like pain or something like that. 559 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 1: But social psychology has jumped all over this. It's like 560 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: we're going to study this, um. And there's this one 561 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 1: study from which I have to give a hat tip 562 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: to you mean because she turned this one up. Um. 563 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: But it was a study of white people who some 564 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:45,719 Speaker 1: of whom received mindfulness training and a control group who 565 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 1: received sham mindfulness training, which is hilarious, and the effect 566 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 1: that it had on their willingness to help black people 567 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 1: that they saw who they saw in need, um and 568 00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: not like you need like you know, homeless or something 569 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 1: like that. Like um, they would be they would be 570 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: subjected to a test unwittingly where they be in a 571 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 1: room and like a black person would come in and 572 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,799 Speaker 1: like drop their papers, and their their willingness to help 573 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,319 Speaker 1: that person pick up the papers, or if a black 574 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,279 Speaker 1: person entered the room and they were on crutches, their 575 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,879 Speaker 1: willingness to give up their seat. And apparently black people 576 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 1: tend to help black people more. White people tend to 577 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 1: help white people more. Spanning people tend to help hispanning 578 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,360 Speaker 1: people more. They people help their in group more. But 579 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,799 Speaker 1: this mindfulness group, um actually kind of cross lines way 580 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 1: more than than was expected. Right, Yeah, I mean I 581 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 1: think that kind of says it all. You you do 582 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 1: help your in group more. But the people that received 583 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:43,359 Speaker 1: the real mindfulness training, we're definitely far and away more 584 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,960 Speaker 1: willing to step outside there in group and help someone 585 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,800 Speaker 1: of another race. Yeah, let's you know, there's going to 586 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:50,319 Speaker 1: be said for that. Yeah, and I mean it was 587 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 1: significant three times more. It's really significant statistically speaking for 588 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 1: a study, and it seems like it was a pretty 589 00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 1: good study. Like the fact that they had sham my 590 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 1: canfulness training ruled out the possibility that the group that 591 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,359 Speaker 1: got mindfulness training was behaving a certain way because they 592 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,800 Speaker 1: thought like that's what was going to be the result 593 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 1: of it, almost like a placebo effect. So the group 594 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 1: that received sham training thought they were getting mindfulness training. 595 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,399 Speaker 1: They still that's what I want to know. I would 596 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:24,320 Speaker 1: love to know what sham mindfulness right. It's like breathing, 597 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:29,839 Speaker 1: really concentrate on all the anger, really feel it. They 598 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 1: or they'd let him in like uh, Lama's breathing where 599 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 1: they're like, I don't think that's right. That doesn't feel right. 600 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,720 Speaker 1: They started to float away. It's really funny and shout 601 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 1: out to cal State San Marcos and Professor Daniel Berry 602 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 1: and I guess you me, yeah, sure, the trifecta. Yeah sure, 603 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: what what's cal State Sam Marcos is the mascot? Geez, 604 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 1: I'm gonna bet five dollars on the lobos. That sounds good. Okay, 605 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 1: let's go with that, alright, Los Lobos even, Yeah, that's 606 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:08,920 Speaker 1: the bandless Lobo sys their magic and not coincidentally their 607 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 1: halftime entertainment as well. Um, but we do need to 608 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,560 Speaker 1: say that, Uh, there's another school of thought, and it's 609 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,399 Speaker 1: not a a competing school of thought. It's just to hey, 610 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 1: be aware that it's not always great for everyone. Uh. 611 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: They there's this one article you said about people that 612 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 1: experience trauma in their lives that have buried it and 613 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 1: it sits in their body, is unconscious trauma that mindfulness 614 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:39,360 Speaker 1: practices and meditation practices can dredge that stuff up. And 615 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 1: so they found that when these people they're studying them 616 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,400 Speaker 1: and they're doing these mindfulness practice they're experiencing like rage 617 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,360 Speaker 1: and anxiety, and it's like whoa, whoa, whoa. This is 618 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:50,359 Speaker 1: the opposite of where we're supposed to be headed here. 619 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:52,799 Speaker 1: And I think they have figured out in a lot 620 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,959 Speaker 1: of these cases it's people that are uncovering these buried traumas. Yeah, 621 00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,759 Speaker 1: and here's where we reach like the first initial part 622 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,280 Speaker 1: where the West has kind of screwed this up because 623 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 1: it is unexpected when somebody in America goes to a 624 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: meditation retreat and tries to become more mindful, and they're 625 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 1: confronted with trauma where they're confronted with rage or self 626 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 1: hatred or something like that, and they're not expecting it. 627 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,359 Speaker 1: If you went and talked to like an actual like 628 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,160 Speaker 1: Buddhist monk, they'd be like, well, somebody probably should have 629 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 1: told you that that's a real possibility that you're not 630 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 1: This isn't all, This isn't like you know, it's like 631 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 1: an acid trip. It's not always like flowers and sunshine. 632 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,440 Speaker 1: Sometimes it's like the darkest thing you'll ever be confronted with. 633 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,319 Speaker 1: Kind of thing, same thing. The good thing about mindfulness 634 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: meditation is that you can stop immediately, but it's supposedly 635 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,319 Speaker 1: in some some retreats, in some situations they're like, no, 636 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 1: you've gotta press through. You gotta press through. And people 637 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,560 Speaker 1: are kind of um enticed or forced into staying in 638 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:57,719 Speaker 1: really uncomfortable trauma experiences um way beyond their comfort zone, 639 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,919 Speaker 1: and it can actually be damaging, and it's very rare 640 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,920 Speaker 1: from what I can tell, for their be like like 641 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 1: lasting harm. But there are reports of people having to 642 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 1: go to therapy for years after having gone on basically 643 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:15,399 Speaker 1: a bad trip at a meditation retreat for years years 644 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 1: of therapy. Um, so it can happen. And I guess, 645 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,800 Speaker 1: like I think, Chuck, there's a two thousand nineteen study 646 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:27,360 Speaker 1: that found like twenty of people who meditate reported experiencing 647 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,759 Speaker 1: unwanted effects, right, like negative effects that they were not 648 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,279 Speaker 1: planning for. And that's the thing that's the big problem. 649 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:39,440 Speaker 1: There's no there's nowhere, very little warnings about this stuff. 650 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:43,040 Speaker 1: It's all treated in a very pollyannish naive manner, as 651 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,080 Speaker 1: if like you know, America and Europe got its hands 652 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:50,240 Speaker 1: on l the the Secret the Cube from hell Raisers, 653 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,239 Speaker 1: just like this is awesome. Let's figure out how to 654 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,359 Speaker 1: be more productive using this thing. That's kind of what's 655 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,000 Speaker 1: going on. Yeah, And I think another thing that can 656 00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,920 Speaker 1: happen is uh uh. It can lead to a spiral 657 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 1: of anxiety if you're not able to get to that 658 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:06,879 Speaker 1: place that you think you should be getting to by 659 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,840 Speaker 1: practicing it. So it becomes like this cycle where you 660 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 1: know you're thinking, like, when practicing this meditation doesn't seem 661 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 1: to be doing anything for me, why can I not 662 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:18,279 Speaker 1: even do this right? And all of a sudden that 663 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 1: is building upon itself and creating anxieties because you feel 664 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,600 Speaker 1: like you're supposed to reach this sort of moment of 665 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:28,399 Speaker 1: like float floaty bliss that is I mean that's really 666 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,160 Speaker 1: hard to maintain, yes, but I mean not maintained, but 667 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,320 Speaker 1: like even touch even reach sure, And it's been packaged 668 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,600 Speaker 1: like that, it's been marketed, is something that you will 669 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 1: just read some floaty bliss with and yeah, I can 670 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 1: totally see being stressed out because you don't reach it 671 00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:45,080 Speaker 1: because it hasn't been explained to you even what you're doing. Right. So, um, 672 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 1: there's a it's a it's a good little short read. 673 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,920 Speaker 1: It's called Mindfulness, Meditation and Trauma Proceed with Caution. I 674 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,960 Speaker 1: found it on good therapy dot org. And it it 675 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,000 Speaker 1: doesn't say like, don't do this even if you know 676 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,400 Speaker 1: your trauma, don't meditate, don't try to become mindful. It 677 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,239 Speaker 1: says some you know, make sure you find like a 678 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,279 Speaker 1: good coach, a good guide, a good teacher who understands 679 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,640 Speaker 1: how to deal with trauma and can prepare you for 680 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,320 Speaker 1: it and can pull you back and be like, don't forget. 681 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:12,960 Speaker 1: Life's actually good. You're good, and now let's try a 682 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,640 Speaker 1: little more and just kind of little by little expose 683 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 1: yourself to it rather than like you know, ripping your 684 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 1: shirt off and standing in front of like the baseball 685 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:24,719 Speaker 1: pitching machine. Uh. There's when it comes to physical pain, 686 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,760 Speaker 1: that's a pretty interesting area as far as the studies 687 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,399 Speaker 1: have been concerned, like the idea that can it out 688 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:36,160 Speaker 1: actually help reduce physical pain or at least the subjective 689 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,160 Speaker 1: experience of pain. And you know, in some studies, in 690 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:44,120 Speaker 1: some cases the men people who practice meditation do report 691 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:49,800 Speaker 1: lower subjective experience of pain or what they call pain unpleasantness. 692 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:52,560 Speaker 1: So this might be a little bit of a mind 693 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,840 Speaker 1: over matter, Like the actual pain is still there, but 694 00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:58,480 Speaker 1: I've gotten my mind too in such a place that 695 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:03,040 Speaker 1: the unpleasantness or the anticipation of that unpleasantness isn't as 696 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:04,840 Speaker 1: great as it would be if I weren't able to 697 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:09,560 Speaker 1: practice that mindfulness. Yeah, as which ties very closely into 698 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:13,000 Speaker 1: a Buddhist tenant of the first arrow of sufferings, which 699 00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:16,480 Speaker 1: is where everyone has to experience that. Let's say you're 700 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:19,960 Speaker 1: bitten by an aunt. It's not a very pleasant sensation, 701 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:23,040 Speaker 1: and everybody's going to experience it roughly the same. But 702 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,440 Speaker 1: there's also a second arrow where you can be worried 703 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:28,480 Speaker 1: about being bitten by an aunt and it makes the 704 00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:31,400 Speaker 1: actually makes the first arrow ten times worse, not just 705 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,040 Speaker 1: twice as bad, but ten times worse. And the idea 706 00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:38,480 Speaker 1: is that if you're mindful, if you practice um sati, 707 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:42,000 Speaker 1: you won't really experience a second arrow, just the first arrow. 708 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,200 Speaker 1: And that's the best you can hope for in this life. 709 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:52,239 Speaker 1: That's right, Mr Roisa, what it's from. Oh, it's just 710 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:54,399 Speaker 1: correct up when every time I think of an arrow 711 00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:57,000 Speaker 1: hitting a human body, I only think of Monty Python 712 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 1: when that guy takes a arrow message to you, so 713 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,200 Speaker 1: as he's dying. Uh. There was one study though, in 714 00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:07,520 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, a review of studies actually that found the 715 00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:11,640 Speaker 1: NBSR can reduce severity of chronic pain or improved daily 716 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,719 Speaker 1: functioning and depression about like associated with that pain, which 717 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,440 Speaker 1: is you know, that's there's something to be said for that, 718 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:20,879 Speaker 1: Like I don't think it should only be looked at 719 00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:24,360 Speaker 1: as some sort of hippie dippie thing like if you 720 00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:30,360 Speaker 1: have real physical pain, it could possibly help, yes, And yeah, 721 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:32,440 Speaker 1: for sure, I mean think that that's kind of like 722 00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:36,120 Speaker 1: one of the outcomes of it being exposed to westernization 723 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,759 Speaker 1: is that it's being studied and it's actually holding up 724 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:43,440 Speaker 1: in studies and boys. It being exposed because if you 725 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:46,759 Speaker 1: work for a big corporation, if you especially work in 726 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:52,120 Speaker 1: Silicon Valley, chances are there are mindfulness retreats, maybe mindfulness 727 00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:56,680 Speaker 1: rooms in the offices where they say, hey, we know 728 00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:58,440 Speaker 1: we work you to death, and it's not fair. Why 729 00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,719 Speaker 1: don't we set up this little room that used to 730 00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:06,560 Speaker 1: be uh, a room for um, you know, for your 731 00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:08,120 Speaker 1: kids to come to work. But we don't let that 732 00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:11,120 Speaker 1: happen anymore. It used to be the nursery. But we'll 733 00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,359 Speaker 1: put you in here and you can zen out and 734 00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:16,080 Speaker 1: be cool. Uh. And here's one of the criticisms. As 735 00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:17,520 Speaker 1: long as you come back and you get all that 736 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,080 Speaker 1: work done, we think it's a great tool for you, 737 00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:24,239 Speaker 1: right exactly. And not just corporations, but the military is 738 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:29,239 Speaker 1: using mindfulness um. Schools, little kids are being taught mindfulness 739 00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:34,400 Speaker 1: um and to meditate uh prisons um. And there's there's 740 00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,320 Speaker 1: an enormous amount of like out just out there in 741 00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:40,920 Speaker 1: the culture. It's it's gotten really popular. I guess in 742 00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:45,759 Speaker 1: two thousand and twelve, just over four percent of Americans meditated. Uh. 743 00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,560 Speaker 1: Five years later it was up to four That's a 744 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,560 Speaker 1: pretty big increase in just five years, and I would 745 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:57,000 Speaker 1: propose it's probably more than that now in um so 746 00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:02,800 Speaker 1: it's everywhere, But it's also really kind of um lost 747 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,960 Speaker 1: its way. I guess once it hit America and corporate 748 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:11,359 Speaker 1: America in particular, mindfulness kind of got perverted, I think, 749 00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:13,440 Speaker 1: is a way you could put it. Yeah, I mean 750 00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,880 Speaker 1: that critique is is really valid. Like it's great that 751 00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:20,520 Speaker 1: a company might take mindfulness in the consideration is something 752 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:24,720 Speaker 1: beneficial for their employees, But to ignore the root cause, 753 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:27,600 Speaker 1: which is you're working too many hours a week and 754 00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:30,319 Speaker 1: you're overworked and you can't possibly get done what you 755 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:34,440 Speaker 1: should get done, and that's where this anxiety is rooted. Um, 756 00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:36,920 Speaker 1: here's a mindfulness room so you can help correct all that. 757 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:39,800 Speaker 1: Like it totally puts the onus on the employee to 758 00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:44,600 Speaker 1: sort of self adjust to what's probably way too much work, 759 00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:47,600 Speaker 1: instead of saying, hey, maybe people wouldn't be in this 760 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:50,640 Speaker 1: position to begin with if they, you know, didn't have 761 00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,400 Speaker 1: to work sixty hours in a week. And and the 762 00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:56,319 Speaker 1: same thing goes for social movements as well, Like some 763 00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:59,120 Speaker 1: people say, hey, you know how like a lot of 764 00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,200 Speaker 1: us are mentally ill these days. That's because society is 765 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,520 Speaker 1: screwed up. So rather than putting the onus again on 766 00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:07,799 Speaker 1: the individual person, just kind of suck it up and 767 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,640 Speaker 1: deal with it in a mindful manner. Why don't we 768 00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:14,399 Speaker 1: focus instead on these social problems that are causing all 769 00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,520 Speaker 1: of these other social problems too, So what we don't 770 00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:21,720 Speaker 1: have to do that? Um? And those are really valid 771 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:28,560 Speaker 1: criticisms of westernized your mindfulness in twenties, And there's actually 772 00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:30,680 Speaker 1: a term for it that a guy named Miles Neil 773 00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:33,719 Speaker 1: coined and another guy named Ronald Purser wrote a book 774 00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:38,719 Speaker 1: using that name, It's perfect Mick mindfulness. Yeah, I love 775 00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:42,160 Speaker 1: that word. And they're basically saying like, hey, you guys 776 00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:45,640 Speaker 1: have so completely detached this from ethics and morals and 777 00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:50,040 Speaker 1: religion and and kind of co opted something that had 778 00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:53,200 Speaker 1: its roots there that Yeah, you've you've there needs to 779 00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,000 Speaker 1: be a term for that. You've mixed mixed it. Yeah, 780 00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:59,480 Speaker 1: you've been lit up, you've mixed screwed it, you make 781 00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:05,160 Speaker 1: lift it? You like that? Uh? And that you know 782 00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:10,719 Speaker 1: you can't ignore the theological roots, uh and have it 783 00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:14,719 Speaker 1: be the same thing. And hr reps across the country say, 784 00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:18,400 Speaker 1: oh yes we can, And look what happens. We're really 785 00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:22,960 Speaker 1: screwing people up. So, um, there's a there's a like 786 00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:24,799 Speaker 1: a couple of quotes I found that I really feel 787 00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:27,200 Speaker 1: like kind of get to the heart of what happened 788 00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:30,839 Speaker 1: when mindfulness came over here and got got picked up 789 00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:34,440 Speaker 1: by corporate America and the military and just other surprising 790 00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:38,239 Speaker 1: groups and maybe put to not the best uses. Um. 791 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:40,839 Speaker 1: There's a really good New York Times article from back 792 00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,319 Speaker 1: in two thousand fifteen that's kind of a meditation on 793 00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:46,359 Speaker 1: the idea of mindfulness or the word mindfulness and what 794 00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:50,719 Speaker 1: it what it means, by Virginia Heffernan, UM, and she 795 00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:55,560 Speaker 1: says that, Um, what commercial mindfulness may have lost from 796 00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:59,080 Speaker 1: the most rigorous Buddhist tenants that it replaced is the 797 00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:03,400 Speaker 1: implication that suffering cannot be escaped but must be faced. 798 00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:07,000 Speaker 1: And that's that's that mispackaging, that miss marketing that we 799 00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:09,840 Speaker 1: talked about. That the idea that if you meditate your mindful, 800 00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:11,560 Speaker 1: it's going to free you from all your problems and 801 00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:15,000 Speaker 1: make you less stressed and more productive and just happier. 802 00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:17,840 Speaker 1: And that's not necessarily the case, because we in the 803 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:21,080 Speaker 1: West tend to really like to, like you said, um, 804 00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:25,040 Speaker 1: avoid all of the stuff that that really stinks and 805 00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:27,000 Speaker 1: just get as much of the stuff that we like, 806 00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:32,000 Speaker 1: and that's not what that's meant for. Yeah this, Uh, 807 00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:35,879 Speaker 1: I think it's from the same article about mindful fracking. Uh. 808 00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:39,040 Speaker 1: Could that be next putting a neuroscience halo around a 809 00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:43,480 Speaker 1: byeword for both uppers productivity and downers relaxation to ensure 810 00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:47,239 Speaker 1: a more compliant workforce in a more prosperous c suite. 811 00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:50,279 Speaker 1: There it is, and there's another one to um. The 812 00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:53,800 Speaker 1: Dali Lama apparently pointed out that um, even a suicide 813 00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:56,800 Speaker 1: bomber would likely have to cultivate some sort of mindfulness. 814 00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:00,120 Speaker 1: It's not it's not inherently ethical. And if it's not 815 00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:04,480 Speaker 1: inherently ethical, then that means that you could conceivably use 816 00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:08,920 Speaker 1: it to nefarious ends. And the way that Buddhists for 817 00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:12,080 Speaker 1: thousands of years kept it from being used to the 818 00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:17,400 Speaker 1: farest ends is by encasing it in wholesomeness like mindfulness. Specifically, 819 00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:20,920 Speaker 1: what's called right mindfulness by the Buddhists is it's a 820 00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:24,880 Speaker 1: wholesome approach and separating wholesome thoughts from unwholesome thoughts. And 821 00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:29,879 Speaker 1: if you just take the mindfulness practice out of that context, 822 00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:32,960 Speaker 1: you have a problem. Um, you want to read that 823 00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:38,320 Speaker 1: quote from Andrew Olensky. True mindfulness is deeply and inextricably 824 00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:41,560 Speaker 1: embedded in the notion of wholesomeness. Just as a tree 825 00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:43,719 Speaker 1: removed from the forest is no longer a tree but 826 00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:47,960 Speaker 1: a piece of lumber. So also the carrying attentiveness of mindfulness, 827 00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:52,239 Speaker 1: extracted from its matrix of wholesome co arising factors, denigrates 828 00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:56,880 Speaker 1: into mere attention. Yeah, that's attention. That's the best you 829 00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:59,240 Speaker 1: can hope for. Is it just denegrates into mere attention 830 00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:02,239 Speaker 1: and not something hard for you? Know? So I think 831 00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:04,240 Speaker 1: it's great. I think it's a I think it's wonderful 832 00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:06,160 Speaker 1: that people want this and they're seeking it out and 833 00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:08,720 Speaker 1: they're trying it. I think the people who are selling 834 00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:13,000 Speaker 1: it to everybody need to just package it more transparently 835 00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:15,839 Speaker 1: and explain the true purpose of it and stopped using 836 00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:20,960 Speaker 1: it for productivity. Agreed. Uh, if you want to know 837 00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:25,160 Speaker 1: more about mindfulness, go, um, go research it and see 838 00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:26,600 Speaker 1: if it's for you, and give it a shot and 839 00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:31,200 Speaker 1: go into it with right eyes, right vision. I can't remember. Uh. 840 00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:33,400 Speaker 1: And since I said I can't remember, of course, that 841 00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:38,759 Speaker 1: means it's time for a listener mail. I'm gonna call 842 00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:43,000 Speaker 1: this tribute to Ziggy Bombach from his son Michael. We 843 00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:46,480 Speaker 1: got a great email that and I've been conversing with 844 00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:48,919 Speaker 1: Michael for the past couple of weeks on this good 845 00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:51,720 Speaker 1: dude and his dad was a good dude. Hey, guys, 846 00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:55,200 Speaker 1: longtime listener. Recently lost my father and I've been going 847 00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:57,640 Speaker 1: through a great deal of grief. My dad was at 848 00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:01,279 Speaker 1: high risk for UH catching COVID, so I made sure 849 00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:03,319 Speaker 1: it was my priority to keep them safe, and since 850 00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,600 Speaker 1: being social wasn't an option over the past couple of years, 851 00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:09,239 Speaker 1: we turned to nature during the pandemic and rekindled our 852 00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:12,200 Speaker 1: love for the great outdoors UH though he never had 853 00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:15,480 Speaker 1: to rekindle his. He was born in Poland and immigrated 854 00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:17,640 Speaker 1: to the States in the sixties and was only ever 855 00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:19,920 Speaker 1: comfortable in his gardener in the woods. He was a 856 00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:23,120 Speaker 1: simple but passionate man. So we started driving out to 857 00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:26,360 Speaker 1: western North New Jersey two Stokes Forest to get spring 858 00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:30,080 Speaker 1: water and go fishing. It's a gorgeous part of the state. 859 00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:33,040 Speaker 1: It was about fifty minutes each way. Perfect to introduce 860 00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:35,879 Speaker 1: him to my favorite podcast, stuff you should know. Even 861 00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:38,040 Speaker 1: though I had to describe to him what a podcast was. 862 00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:41,600 Speaker 1: He was instantly enthralled, and I can still hear him 863 00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:44,440 Speaker 1: quietly asking in the car if Chuck and Josh were 864 00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:49,319 Speaker 1: going to be broadcasting today. It's just adorable. Like me. 865 00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:53,520 Speaker 1: He adored your ability to convey something complex and tough 866 00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:56,560 Speaker 1: information in such a sweetened conversational way. He would always 867 00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:58,760 Speaker 1: come home and tell my mom what he had learned. 868 00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:01,000 Speaker 1: Was so much isolate in the past few years. It 869 00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:03,520 Speaker 1: was warming to hear him happy about all these new 870 00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:05,960 Speaker 1: subjects that he was learning about. You gave him that 871 00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,239 Speaker 1: happiness and made his life that much better of the 872 00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:10,399 Speaker 1: last couple of years of his life. I can't thank 873 00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:13,520 Speaker 1: you enough for everything that you continue to do. There's 874 00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:15,879 Speaker 1: so much bad in this world right now, and people 875 00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:17,960 Speaker 1: are hardly operating at their best, but you continue to 876 00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:23,040 Speaker 1: do something worthwhile and worth making, something worth learning. So 877 00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:25,200 Speaker 1: thank you for making the life of Ziggy bomboch a 878 00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:28,279 Speaker 1: little brighter towards his end. And that is from Mike. 879 00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:30,880 Speaker 1: And he sent me a picture of Ziggy and I 880 00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:34,000 Speaker 1: read the obituary. I looked it up and Ziggy seemed 881 00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:36,719 Speaker 1: like a great, great guy and uh I had his 882 00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:40,279 Speaker 1: zin out to reading this. So I wouldn't cry. I 883 00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:43,680 Speaker 1: cried every time. That's a really amazing email. Thank you 884 00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:47,680 Speaker 1: so much that it's impossible to not past judgment on 885 00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:50,080 Speaker 1: that one. I'm going to say, I feel very proud Chuck, 886 00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:53,800 Speaker 1: that's right in this case. Great judgment and uh r 887 00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:56,120 Speaker 1: I p ziggy sound like a great guy. R I 888 00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:58,880 Speaker 1: p Ziggy And thank you Mike. I'm glad we could 889 00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:03,000 Speaker 1: help bring you in dead together. That's pretty amazing stuff. Uh. 890 00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:05,160 Speaker 1: If you want to be like Mike, can get in 891 00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:07,480 Speaker 1: touch with us and write us the email of the century. 892 00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:11,000 Speaker 1: We are willing to read it. Uh. You can send 893 00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:18,440 Speaker 1: it to us at stuff Podcasts at iHeart radio dot com. 894 00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:20,840 Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of I heart Radio. 895 00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:24,479 Speaker 1: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, 896 00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:27,600 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 897 00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:30,520 Speaker 1: H