WEBVTT - Quetzalcoatl: The Winged Serpent 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.840 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:05.840 --> 0:00:14.760 Works dot Com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:17.479 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:20.120 today we thought we would treat you to the beginning 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:23.799 of an early nineteen eighties film trailer. Yeah, before we 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:28.520 go any further, Uh, take a load of this. For 0:00:28.720 --> 0:00:34.600 ten centuries it has waited m to be awakened, to 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:39.000 be worshiped again, like a god, to fill the skies, 0:00:40.680 --> 0:00:53.280 to cast its shadow over the earth, to release its fury. Okay, 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:56.080 so it's October. You know we're doing stuff related to monsters, 0:00:56.160 --> 0:00:59.760 horror movies. What on earth was that? Robert? That was 0:00:59.840 --> 0:01:02.480 a was? It was part of the trailer to Cue 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:07.080 the Winged Serpent, released in nineteen eighty two, written and 0:01:07.120 --> 0:01:10.560 directed by b movie legend Larry Cohen. Oh the guy 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:12.800 who made God Told Me To Yeah, also known for 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:16.920 It's Alive and the Stuff. This particular film, though, is it's, 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:20.600 in my opinion, a real gym because it's it's nine 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:24.160 two New York, so it's essentially like late seventies New York. Yeah. 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:28.880 It it really gets that grimy nous and that doomy nous. 0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:31.640 I've I've been trying to figure out exactly what it 0:01:31.720 --> 0:01:35.520 is about, like late seventies New York in movies, where 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:41.200 it just there's this grim, fatalistic, doomy kind of cynicism 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:44.240 that everybody's got where it's like they know the end 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:47.039 of the world is coming soon. Yeah, I mean what 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:48.320 part of it is that? I mean, we could do 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:51.000 you could do a whole episode, the whole podcast series 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:53.919 just on that vibe. I mean, really, the the HBO 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:56.120 series The Deuce is kind of attempting to do the 0:01:56.200 --> 0:01:59.440 same thing, looking particular at particular areas of of the 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:01.400 culture during that time. But yeah, I think there's a 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:05.720 certain national cynicism, and then there obviously some some major 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:09.360 issues going on in New York City at the time. Uh. 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:12.480 This trailer adds a little extra issue to that. Heap 0:02:13.040 --> 0:02:18.200 that being a giant, uh flying serpentine creature that may 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:21.840 or may not be an Aztec god that is roosting 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:27.480 somewhere in the city and occasionally a soaring down to 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:31.720 grab a Sunbathe is off the roofs of New York 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:37.160 City skyscrapers and window washers, window washers, cops, anybody who 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:40.079 happens to be up there within reach. Now, essentially this 0:02:40.160 --> 0:02:44.080 creature is a dragon, right, It is a giant, angry 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:47.120 looking bird lizard thing. I don't really I don't think 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:49.720 it has feathers, does it. No, it's very very smooth, 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:53.480 very reptilian. It looks kind of like a winged saua 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:57.800 pod with enormous eyes. It's a very strange design. But 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:00.960 it's stopped motions, so every moment you spend with it 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:04.240 in the film is magic. So this movie is you know, 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:08.520 it's got that that grimy, nasty, sleazy B movie quality, 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:11.440 that late seventies Larry Cohen kind of thing. But it's 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:14.680 also kind of good. It's like, it's got a funny script. 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:17.040 There's like a great scene where the cops are about 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:20.160 to storm the nest of the of the dragon creature 0:03:20.280 --> 0:03:23.160 and one of them is just drinking a Budweiser. Yeah, 0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:25.840 it has an ingenious plot because well, I don't know, 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:28.080 maybe not ingenious, but it has a clever plot that 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:31.840 I really like for a monster movie. Uh, which, just 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:34.160 to run through the cast real quick, You've got Candy Clark, 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:38.200 you have David Carradine, you have Richard Rowntree, David Carradine 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:42.600 Beta Carotene. Why is it every time I say David Carradine, 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:44.920 I want to say beta Caroteen. I don't know, he's 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:47.560 he's just rich in it, I guess. But most importantly, 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:51.240 you have Michael Moriarty, who's just great at playing a 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:54.400 down on his luck slee's bag, and he really brings 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:57.920 it in this movie. Reviews from the year it came 0:03:57.960 --> 0:04:00.680 out pretty much agreed with this him and they were like, 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:02.680 I don't know about this monster movie, but that Michael 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:05.840 Moriarty is fabulous, and he is fabulous in it. He 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:09.760 plays essentially, yeah, this New York sleeves bag who I 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:12.200 think he's involved in a diamond highst and he flees 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:16.160 and he ends up stumbling upon the nest of the 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:18.880 of Q the Winged Serpent, because he just happens to 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:21.080 climb to the top of the Chrysler building. I don't 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:23.320 remember why he does that. He's just like, well, I'm 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:26.039 up here now. But he discovers like where the monster 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:29.960 that is terrorizing the city is located, where it's egg 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:32.240 is located, and so what does he do with this 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:36.280 heroic information? He blackmails the city. I was just right, 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:39.960 babe me a million dollars and and give me immunity 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:41.880 for all my crimes or I won't tell you where 0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:45.240 the egg is. Yes, and there there's some other elements 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:47.760 to the plot that really uh fun as well. That 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:49.960 there's one scene, and this is in the trailer where 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:55.480 David Decaradine's police officer character's detective character says, this thing 0:04:55.480 --> 0:04:59.320 has been prayed back into existence. And there's this whole 0:04:59.320 --> 0:05:04.080 plot with like an az Tec cult and ritual murders. Um, 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:06.520 it's it's it's a fabulously fun film. Now with the 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:10.080 nod to the to the cult and with Q standing 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:14.400 in for quetzel Kadal, Uh, it's clear that the beast 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:20.320 in this film is a monster ified version of the 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:24.280 ancient meso American god ketzel Coadal. And I think it's 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:28.120 worth stopping to appreciate that the the original ketsel Coadal, 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:32.320 the feathered serpent, is not a monster, but is a 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:36.599 holly magnificent god of the heavens. Right, And it's unfair 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:39.960 to really do associated with a bunch of blood sacrifice. 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:43.800 Though we were discussing this little offline before we came 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:47.000 in here. That's often where a lot of people's imagination 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:50.919 goes when they are reminded of the Aztec civilization or 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:55.720 other meso American or or South American civilizations. Yeah, this 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:57.800 is one thing that I think is is kind of 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:02.280 sad and unfair that that ancient meso American religions often 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:06.200 get associated with human sacrifice. And it's not unfair because 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:09.719 there was no human sacrifice. So there there was, It's 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:12.159 pretty clear that that was a feature of some ancient 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:15.680 meso American religion. But what's unfair is that it's like 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:20.080 meso American religion gets singled out for association with human 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:23.599 sacrifice when human sacrifice is just everywhere in the ancient world. 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:27.120 There's evidence that the ancient Greeks probably did human sacrifice, 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:30.040 the you know, ancient Nordic religions, you know, the Celts 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:33.200 and the Scandinavians. I mean, everywhere you look, you'll find 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:36.120 evidence of human sacrifice somewhere back in time. So it's 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:38.960 not like this was unique to the Mesoamerican religions. So 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:43.559 in this episode, we're going to mostly talk about the 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:47.599 religious origins of quetzo Quaddle as well as some of 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:50.240 the things that it has inspired uh and may have 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:53.799 inspired yet we're gonna talk a little bit about serpents 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:56.920 that actually sort of fly through the air. We're also 0:06:56.920 --> 0:06:59.839 going to talk about a particular prehistoric flying creature that 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:04.000 has been named in the Quetzo kadals honor. But let's 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:08.159 start with the god itself, quetzal Kadal, the plumed serpent. 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:11.880 Tell me about this god, Robert. So, in reading a 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:14.400 bit about the plume serpent god, a number of things 0:07:14.760 --> 0:07:17.880 it became really clear. Um. I was one book I 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:22.040 picked up was RUDOLPHO Andy as a fictional Lord of 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:26.320 the Dawn the legend of Quetzo Kwaddle, which is I 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:28.760 say fictional. Basically, what he attempted to do in this 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:34.840 book is to provide a narrative, easily read, narrative version 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:39.240 of Quetzo Quaddle's story. And I actually saw a really 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:41.640 good user review for this where they pointed out, you know, 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:45.960 with with Greek myths in particular, it's not just archaeological 0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:51.440 and anthropo anthropological information that we're exposed to as a kid. 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:55.000 We were exposed to the stories themselves. We get to 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:58.560 kind of experience the stories as just pure stories. And 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:01.240 this particular reviewer was saying, you know, I had trouble 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:06.040 finding that with meso American religions, and this book provided that. 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:09.800 So in the book itself is is a very good 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:12.400 I'll mention a little bit more as we go forward, 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:15.120 but there's an introduction in this book from the University 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:18.640 of New Mexico's David M. Johnson, and yeah, he does 0:08:18.680 --> 0:08:21.720 a great job of just just rolling through, like what 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:25.760 was quetzo kaddle, what did what did it stand for? 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:28.160 And what is our what do we know? What do 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:30.600 we not know about it? And he points out that 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:32.960 there's a lot that we do not know about the 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:35.839 toll Tech Empire. This would be uh, one of the 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:40.440 empire's proceeding of the Aztec Empire. He says, he said 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:44.840 that we're only we're only talking the Mesoamerican world roughly 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:48.200 seven hundred years ago, so we're not going into the 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:51.679 the the ancient past really uh. He says that we 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:54.480 know more about Athens of two thousand years ago or 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:59.000 Hebraic traditions from three thousand years ago. Uh, meso American 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:01.120 world against seven h years ago, and there's so much 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:03.440 we don't know. And he says this is largely because 0:09:03.920 --> 0:09:07.400 Spanish friars did what they could to destroy the codices 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:11.080 of the Aztecs in the Maya. We have to remember 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:13.600 that the most obvious thing here is that this was 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:19.559 a world that was invaded by Westerners, by the Spanish, 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:22.959 by the Portuguese UH and UH, and that the culture 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:27.400 was ravaged for it. On top of this, the hieroglyphic 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:30.960 style books of the Aztecs UH were there to apparently 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:35.520 aid in the memorization of oral literature. So imagine, perhaps 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:38.400 this is my my read on the scenario. Imagine if 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:43.040 only the illustrations and the illuminations of Christian stories survived, 0:09:43.160 --> 0:09:45.880 but the Bible did not, or we had you know, 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:49.560 mostly artwork to go by uh in order to figure 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:52.280 out what the Greek pantheon consisted of, you know, and 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:55.280 what the stories were that were associated with those individuals. 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:58.360 I think that that's just a rough example to sort 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:02.240 of outline the problems of not having the you know, 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:05.480 complete access to the information. But so in general, there's 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:09.360 been a great loss of Mesoamerican literature that was in 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:13.000 many ways caused by colonialism. Yeah. He pointed out in 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:16.480 this that only something like sixteen books survive, three Mayan, 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:20.520 six Wahaka books, and that most of what we know 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:25.160 about pre conquest culture in Mesoamerica comes from archaeological evidence 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:29.679 and postconquest scribes and scholars, but quetzo Quaddle seems to 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:36.000 have existed in this pantheon of meso American culture for 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:38.920 a while. Is this kind of wind god who creates 0:10:38.920 --> 0:10:41.920 the earth by lifting up the heavens. And he was 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:45.080 probably a very old god emerging from the beliefs of 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:50.880 coastal regions associated with shells and wind and sea. The 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:53.320 the quet soul part of his name refers to a 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:58.160 rare bird with precious green feathers, feathers used in ceremonial dresses, 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:01.480 and um At should point out that there you can 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:03.280 look up pictures of quets as they are like five 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:05.720 different species of quets als and there, and their feathers 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:08.600 are quite beautiful. They're found in Mexico in the extreme 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:11.760 southern United States. Yeah, I think does the Does the 0:11:11.840 --> 0:11:14.680 name refer to their long tail feathers? Is that right? 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:17.480 I believe so. And these would have been used in 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:22.920 uh various religious attire. They are beautiful birds. And now 0:11:22.960 --> 0:11:25.920 the cowaddle aspect of the name that refers to a 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:29.880 snake tied to earth energy fertility in the cyclical nature 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:33.400 of life. So in this combo UH, this god, we 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:37.280 have a convergence of earthly and spiritual energy. We have 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:39.920 a creature of the ground and a creature of the sky, 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:42.520 both as one, and he went by other names as well. 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:46.480 He was known as Kukulkin in the Yucatan and Guku 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:50.520 Mats in Guatemala. In devotion to the feathered serpent spread 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:55.559 as far north as New Mexico and south to Columbia, Peru, 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:59.360 and Bolivia. And of course outside of this tradition, obviously 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:01.120 we have to point to the fact that this is 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:04.040 not the only tradition that involves a winged serpent. You 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:07.599 encounter feathered serpents and other religions as well, uh and 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:11.480 in Europe and Asia. And essentially, as we pointed out 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:14.720 with with Q from the movie, it's it's not that 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:18.040 different from other ideas of a dragon, a great holy 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:21.800 winged creature. Now, I don't want to try to over 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:26.559 smooth or overconform the differences between different mythical beasts from 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:30.920 around the world, but I am always fascinated by the 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:33.199 fact that it seems to me, you know, if if 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:37.360 I'm not over you know, over generalizing that so many 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:42.200 different cultures have something like a dragon. There's the European dragon, 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:46.600 the ancient Near Eastern dragon, the Chinese dragon. And then 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:50.120 if we're saying cuetzel Kadal is in many ways kind 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:53.720 of like a dragon. Is that? Um? Is that just 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:57.360 us seeing patterns and things that are objectively not all 0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:00.679 that similar or is that really a pattern? And if so, 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:05.079 what is it that causes dragon imagery to arise spontaneously 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:08.679 in so many different cultures around the world. Yeah, I 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:10.800 mean you can also tie in just the serpentine aspect 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:12.200 of it. I mean, obviously there are a lot of 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:15.640 world servants in mythologies, and there's a lot to be 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:19.560 said about our basically, our our encoded response to the 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:24.200 side of a snake. Um, if if cats had a 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:26.560 god of the sky they worshiped, perhaps it would be 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:32.760 a what is it a cucumber with wings in the sky. Uh. 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:35.000 And again I yeah, we don't want to over generalize things, 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:37.040 but I feel like there are certain creatures of the 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:41.360 Earth that humans have a natural heightened response to. And 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:45.640 then add you know, several thousand years worth of myth 0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:47.520 building and world building on top of that, and you 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:49.760 get some curious forms. Well, yeah, I wonder if this 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:51.760 goes back to something we talked about, like in our 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:56.679 the First Monster episode, where we discussed the idea what 0:13:56.800 --> 0:14:00.000 types of animal forms would become most embedded in review 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:03.240 eared in human consciousness, and you would tend to assume 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:07.280 it might be something like an apex predator or some 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:11.400 animal representing danger, but then also bringing in qualities that 0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:15.560 we associate with, like intelligence and human characteristics. But also 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:18.040 just a minute ago, I think you mentioned something about 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:21.840 the cyclical nature of of the world and of time. 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:26.240 I figured that had something to do with with the 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:29.600 ancient Mesoamerican theology we're talking about here, right, Yeah, The 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:31.840 belief system in ancient Mexico is one in which you 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:35.920 had various ages that had preceded our own. Each fallen 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:38.000 age was ruled over by an appropriate god. So we 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:41.120 at ages of water, ages of fire, each ended by 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:45.600 disharmony between the forces that must otherwise exist in balance. 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:51.040 And these were not strictly moral dimensions of good versus evil, 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:54.920 but forces apparently more akin to Eastern models of yin 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:59.560 and yang um. Though there is a timeless struggle at 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:01.240 the heart of this, and it is I think very 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:04.680 easy to categorize the two players in it into sort 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:08.720 of a good versus evil interpretation. But then again that's 0:15:08.760 --> 0:15:11.200 our Western minds approaching it too right. You might want 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:14.080 to put things in the familiar categories and say you've 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:16.440 got God and the devil, but it's not quite that 0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:21.120 case with what Ketzelkadal and tes Catlee PoCA. Yes, tes 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:25.560 catlet PoCA, whose name apparently means smoking mirror, referring to 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:29.360 the obsidian mirrors used in worship. That's so good, So 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:33.440 it's essentially he's essentially the god of the Black mirror Um. 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:36.320 Interestingly enough, that black Mirror came up in an episode 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:40.640 that Christian and I did on John d the the 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:46.120 the English Um really polymath but also sorcerer. He had 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:50.920 a mirror that that originated in South America or Mesoamerica. 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:54.040 What did he use it for? Well, magic, of course, right, 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:57.200 if you're gonna have a an obsidian mirror of of 0:15:57.240 --> 0:15:59.920 test Catlet PoCA of you're gonna be better be using 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:03.120 it from magic. But anyway, these these two beings that 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:05.640 they created the world, It's said, by tearing apart a 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:09.040 primordial Earth goddess. The world was created from the parts 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:12.360 of her body out of remorse from the two gods 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:16.280 for the the for her unfortunate death, and they also 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:21.040 created man and woman. Um there's an interesting little story 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:25.000 where um quetzo Quaddle himself has to has to make 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:29.520 a regular pilgrimage into the land of the Dead, into Michlin, 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:32.480 and there he has to complete a series of trials 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:36.200 for its king and queen so that they'll let him 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:38.640 bring the old bones of the dead back up to 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:41.520 the surface and then use their ground up substance to 0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:45.640 create the next generation of humans. Yeah, and uh and 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:49.160 and again. In this we see you know, some models 0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:51.200 here that are present elsewhere in the world, and we're 0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:54.640 reminded of, you know, the harrowing of Hell or or 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:58.880 the descents into the underworld in in the Greek mythology, 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:02.080 maybe ice A and o Sirius. Yeah, yeah, this is 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:05.800 his story as old as human time anyway. On top 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:10.080 of this, um uh Quetzokado is also a culture bringer, 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:15.200 so he we associated with architecture, art, and the sacred calendar. 0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:17.919 Yet another theme we see in religions all throughout the 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:22.120 world the the this ancient figure figure from the gods 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:28.720 bringing knowledge or customs or culture cultural practices to the humans. Now, 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:32.800 according to the Johnson um Quatso Kaddle was a major 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:35.840 object of worship from around two hundred to nine hundred 0:17:35.880 --> 0:17:40.840 sea in the urban center of teoti Wakin, a city 0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:45.640 of Mesoamerican pyramids and some two hundred thousand residents. So 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:49.640 the toll texts would inherit this city and dominate Mexico 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:54.359 through the twelfth century, and worship of Katskatdo really took 0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:57.680 off in the tenth century when we have this case 0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:01.080 whether the myth really melded with his tree. He became 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:06.040 associated with a cultural hero named say A Coddle told 0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:10.000 Pilsen and so so you get this idea that told Piltson, 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:14.720 this historic figure, by some estimates like the the oldest 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:20.080 historical figure uh in Mexico. Uh. He becomes merge. We 0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:23.000 we end up merging Getzok Waddle and to Pilsen into 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:27.680 a single entity. He becomes the incarnation of the feathered God. 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:30.480 And in doing this, to Piltson becomes a spiritual figure 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:33.920 of peace uh. And in doing so he all alienates 0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:37.639 the more militaristic segments of society that don't want to 0:18:37.640 --> 0:18:41.520 give up human sacrifice and war, two things that to 0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:44.560 Piltson is opposed to saying, you know, hey, maybe we 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:46.439 don't need to be at constant war with our neighbors. 0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:49.600 Maybe we don't need to sacrifice human beings. Maybe we 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:52.960 can just sacrifice I think it's like butterflies and lizards 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:57.640 and whatnot as opposed to to to humans. Uh and uh, 0:18:57.680 --> 0:18:59.880 And I have to point out and and he's retelling 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:04.399 this tale because Rudolpho and I is retelling, really is 0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:07.720 concerned with this incarnation of cats cooddle. He does a 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:09.639 great he has a great way of characterizing this in 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:13.600 a very believable way, not a xenophobic, barbarian approach, where 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:15.960 you where you'd be like, oh, one guy saying let's 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:19.160 not kill everybody, of course, let's do something peaceful instead. 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:21.720 You know, he's he's putting in a form that feels 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:26.120 very modern in some respects where where the opposing king 0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:28.920 is saying, look, I mean human sacrifices. What we do. 0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:32.840 We have to have armies, we have to have firm borders, 0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:35.280 we need to expand and get more farmland, we have 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:39.000 to have war, and uh and uh to Piltson is 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:43.600 standing in opposition to that, So it represents chaos right, 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:47.840 often peace is represented as chaos. Yeah, so he's a 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:51.880 major threat to the establishment. So the story goes that 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:59.160 the king conspires with three sorcerers to deal with Piltson, 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:02.400 and one this is the militaristic king. Yes, and one 0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:07.240 of the sorcerers is none other than Ketsok Waddle's arch enemy, 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:12.919 uh Tescotli PoCA in human form. So they end up 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:15.919 using a black mirror to tempt to pelts and uh 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:18.080 they corrupt and in doing so, they corrupt him and 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:22.280 make him fully carnal, so he like loses his god nature. Yeah, 0:20:22.640 --> 0:20:24.359 it's like a gradual thing, Like they show him the 0:20:24.400 --> 0:20:26.480 mirror and he sees himself and becomes a little vain, 0:20:26.680 --> 0:20:28.840 and uh, then there's a you know, an additional level. 0:20:28.880 --> 0:20:30.600 I think it's so very very much like a rule 0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:33.800 of three type thing. And eventually they bring about his 0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:37.639 downfall and he's you know, fully carnal. And after that 0:20:37.800 --> 0:20:39.920 he he he has been defeated. He lays in a 0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:42.600 stone coffin for four days and then he emerges. He 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:45.560 departs on a raft of snakes, and then he emolates 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:50.560 himself and the ashes become rainbow colored birds that ascend 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:53.719 into the sky, and in doing so ketsok waddle Uh 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:58.320 passes away from the earth, but he promises to return, however, 0:20:58.800 --> 0:21:01.720 to to reincarnate at some point in the future in 0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:04.399 the year say a Coddle Uh. And this is the 0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:07.959 the Aztec calendar. Okay, So the result of this though, Uh. 0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:09.960 And then again we have the situation where the myth 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:14.760 and the history are are entangled. But to Pilsen, the 0:21:14.840 --> 0:21:20.119 individual Uh is brought down and society ends up splittering, splintering, 0:21:20.560 --> 0:21:24.240 and then the in doing so, the toll Tech dynasty crumbles. Uh. 0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:28.280 But he remains a messianic figure, driven out in Diosgrace, 0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:32.000 dying in exile, but prophesies to return. Well, that is 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:34.040 a great story. It makes me want to read this 0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:36.359 book by h. This is this is all from the 0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:38.800 Rudolpho and I a book. Yes, Like I said that, 0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:41.040 the introductions fabricst in the book itself is wonderful too. 0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:43.760 It's short, it's a short read, so I recommend it. Yeah, 0:21:44.000 --> 0:21:46.119 I've got to check that out. But I guess we 0:21:46.200 --> 0:21:47.760 need to take a quick break and then when we 0:21:47.880 --> 0:21:53.439 come back we can explore more about this story. All right, 0:21:53.440 --> 0:21:56.439 we're back, alright, so we started off by talking about 0:21:57.320 --> 0:22:00.359 kind of kind of the crude version of the plumed 0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:03.800 serpent idea as it as it appears in say, slimy 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:06.600 b movies from the early eighties. And then we got 0:22:06.680 --> 0:22:10.120 into the idea of quetzel Coadal is actually this magnificent 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:13.840 god from Mesoamerican religion, and Robert you told the story 0:22:14.240 --> 0:22:18.239 from from this excellent sounding book about quetzel coadls uh 0:22:18.720 --> 0:22:22.320 coming down to embody this character in in the History 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:25.439 of the Empire, and how how all that played out 0:22:25.520 --> 0:22:28.119 when the hero was betrayed and exiled, and the idea 0:22:28.160 --> 0:22:31.120 that he might return. So let's pick up from there. 0:22:31.880 --> 0:22:34.000 All right, well, let's let's jump right in. So one 0:22:34.040 --> 0:22:36.280 of the issues here is that so far we've been 0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:39.600 discussing quetzo Coaddle in a pre Columbian since and we 0:22:39.640 --> 0:22:43.520 say pre Columbian America's were of course talking about before 0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:48.560 the arrival of Columbus, before the arrival of of the 0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:53.760 various western colonial powers, the colonial invaders that would subjugate 0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:58.159 the both continents. And so when this we come to uh, 0:22:58.320 --> 0:23:00.680 an idea we've discussed on the show before, and that 0:23:00.920 --> 0:23:04.359 is UH, the idea of an outside context problem. Now, 0:23:04.440 --> 0:23:06.520 this was a term coined by the late sci Fi 0:23:06.600 --> 0:23:09.640 author E. N. M. Banks to describe a problem faced 0:23:09.680 --> 0:23:14.080 by a civilization um that that has no ability to 0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:18.119 prepare for or scarcely comprehend the problem they're faced with. 0:23:18.400 --> 0:23:21.399 An o CPS is when they refer to it is 0:23:21.520 --> 0:23:25.840 often fatal. In most societies or civilizations only ever encounter 0:23:26.040 --> 0:23:30.320 one of them. The most common example is one civilization 0:23:30.400 --> 0:23:35.000 suddenly encountering another civilization of far greater technological power, such 0:23:35.080 --> 0:23:38.680 as humans encountering an alien species that can travel between 0:23:38.720 --> 0:23:41.639 the stars. But a less extreme version of this, of course, 0:23:42.000 --> 0:23:46.520 could simply be encountering a civilization has much more advanced 0:23:46.600 --> 0:23:51.919 weapons of war. Exactly, for example, beings that are encased 0:23:51.960 --> 0:23:55.280 in iron and traverse the entire oceans and great wooden 0:23:55.400 --> 0:23:58.440 vessels and capture the power of wind to do so, 0:23:59.119 --> 0:24:02.080 whose weapons pierced the air like thunder, and whose very 0:24:02.400 --> 0:24:08.280 very bodies exude a creeping death that cannot be stopped. Uh. 0:24:08.359 --> 0:24:10.520 And in this we have the conquistadors. We have the 0:24:10.640 --> 0:24:13.840 armies of her non Cortes, the conquerors of the Spanish 0:24:13.920 --> 0:24:17.639 Empire that arrived in Mesoamerica. And of course we know 0:24:17.800 --> 0:24:20.400 that the European colonial invaders brought more than one kind 0:24:20.480 --> 0:24:23.840 of warfare. It wasn't just the explicit technologies was like steel, 0:24:24.000 --> 0:24:26.880 armor and swords and guns and stuff. It was also 0:24:26.960 --> 0:24:30.680 biological warfare. So in the case of the Spanish arriving 0:24:31.160 --> 0:24:35.239 in meso America, this is obviously a situation where there 0:24:35.359 --> 0:24:38.880 was a lot of destruction, a lot of cultural descripted destruction. 0:24:38.960 --> 0:24:42.639 This was a catastrophic event for the peoples of the Americas. 0:24:43.080 --> 0:24:48.760 So we mentioned the year, say a Coddle earlier, the 0:24:49.080 --> 0:24:53.480 the year that uh Quetzo ku Waddle was prophesied to return. 0:24:54.160 --> 0:24:58.040 So that year, that year ends up rolling around once more, 0:24:58.440 --> 0:25:02.399 and by Western measure, this the year fifteen nineteen. This 0:25:02.560 --> 0:25:05.879 was the year as well that Cortez arrived. No, so 0:25:05.960 --> 0:25:09.040 you can understand the confusion, right Uh you look and 0:25:09.080 --> 0:25:12.520 you say, well, here, surely this is quetzoquad returned to 0:25:12.680 --> 0:25:15.840 claim his throne, attended to by an unnatural army and 0:25:15.920 --> 0:25:19.960 arriving on what was described as perhaps floating mountains or 0:25:20.000 --> 0:25:23.880 even the four mythic temples of quetsok Waddle. Interesting, now, 0:25:24.040 --> 0:25:27.320 I had heard before the idea that when I say 0:25:27.359 --> 0:25:31.320 Cortez and his armies arrived, that that they were perceived 0:25:31.480 --> 0:25:34.760 as gods. And I didn't know if that was actually 0:25:34.880 --> 0:25:38.520 historically true or historically likely, or if maybe that was 0:25:38.680 --> 0:25:42.240 like an untrue rumor or Spanish tale. Do you have 0:25:42.359 --> 0:25:45.360 do you have a sense of whether that's actually historically accurate? Well, 0:25:45.480 --> 0:25:47.600 it seems to be. There seems again we don't have 0:25:47.680 --> 0:25:49.520 complete knowledge of everything I went down, but there do 0:25:49.560 --> 0:25:51.639 seem to be a few different ways of interpreting this 0:25:52.080 --> 0:25:54.679 from what I've seen so far. So you're dealing primarily 0:25:54.800 --> 0:25:58.679 with UH, with the the ruler makte Zuma the second 0:25:59.119 --> 0:26:03.840 sometimes referred to monte Zuma and UH. And so he's 0:26:04.359 --> 0:26:06.520 he sees this, he sees what's happening, he sees the 0:26:06.960 --> 0:26:10.360 Spanish that have arrived. And you could say that either 0:26:10.480 --> 0:26:12.439 oh well, he and his people think there are gods, 0:26:12.560 --> 0:26:16.600 or perhaps just the the the weirdness of this is 0:26:16.800 --> 0:26:19.720 enough to make them hesitate. You don't know how to RESPONCD. 0:26:19.720 --> 0:26:21.320 They didn't know how to respond. Yeah, I mean that's 0:26:21.320 --> 0:26:23.840 the problem of an outside context. Problem is that you 0:26:23.960 --> 0:26:26.240 have no context for it, and therefore you don't have 0:26:26.520 --> 0:26:30.440 a response. Uh, and readily available at hand. Wisdom is 0:26:30.520 --> 0:26:35.440 often prudence holding back and you know, not acting hastily, right, So, 0:26:36.080 --> 0:26:38.240 and you also have other factors at work here. We 0:26:38.320 --> 0:26:41.360 mentioned that the disease factor. You also have the fact 0:26:41.440 --> 0:26:45.200 that the invaders are fairly quick to align themselves with 0:26:45.280 --> 0:26:48.439 the enemies of the Aztecs, Like they doesn't take them 0:26:48.480 --> 0:26:50.600 long to figure out like what are the power dynamics 0:26:50.640 --> 0:26:54.600 and how they can exploit the situation. And however it 0:26:54.680 --> 0:26:56.720 ends up exactly playing out. It's clear that, you know, 0:26:56.760 --> 0:27:00.920 the Aztec empires is toppled within two years years uh 0:27:01.320 --> 0:27:05.160 makta Zuma the second becomes a mere prisoner. But there 0:27:05.280 --> 0:27:09.240 wasn't There's another interpretation of events here that I thought 0:27:09.320 --> 0:27:12.760 was fascinating, and that is that Montezuma the Second uh 0:27:13.160 --> 0:27:15.680 was apparently you know, he's worried by the portents of 0:27:15.760 --> 0:27:18.920 doom and in the typical mode of rulers, somewhat paranoid 0:27:18.960 --> 0:27:22.000 about plots against him. And then he meets Cortez and 0:27:22.040 --> 0:27:25.280 his Spanish retinue, who were you know, also in awe 0:27:25.280 --> 0:27:28.240 of this great city. Uh, and they're also that that 0:27:28.280 --> 0:27:31.160 would be to nok Titlain. Yes, and there and again 0:27:31.200 --> 0:27:34.720 they've aligned themselves with with enemies of the Aztec Empire 0:27:34.960 --> 0:27:37.960 and so he ends up presenting Cortes with quote the 0:27:38.040 --> 0:27:42.840 treasure of Quatzokuadle. Okay, so, markte Zuma presents Cortes with 0:27:43.040 --> 0:27:48.679 like a a religiously significant piece of raimond a costume, 0:27:50.320 --> 0:27:55.400 And as explored briefly in Robert Draper's National Geographic Magazine 0:27:55.480 --> 0:28:00.320 article Unbearing the aztec Uh, it's possible too that monte 0:28:00.400 --> 0:28:03.920 Zoom of the second was quote cunningly outfitting Cortez in 0:28:04.000 --> 0:28:10.080 the godly garment of the soon to be sacrificed. So again, 0:28:10.119 --> 0:28:11.920 he doesn't really get into this a lot in this article, 0:28:11.960 --> 0:28:14.760 but think back again to the The Rise and Fall 0:28:14.840 --> 0:28:19.120 of Ketso Kwaddle. Ketzoku Waddle is a king prophesies to return, 0:28:19.760 --> 0:28:22.159 but also a king whose very story is one of 0:28:22.280 --> 0:28:27.359 sacrifice and death. So perhaps the idea is that montag 0:28:27.440 --> 0:28:30.159 Zuma was maybe not so much a fly trapped in 0:28:30.200 --> 0:28:33.119 the web of symbols and myth, but a spider trying 0:28:33.240 --> 0:28:36.879 one last clever trick to ensnare his enemy within the 0:28:36.960 --> 0:28:40.080 trappings of symbol and myth, to turn the people against 0:28:40.240 --> 0:28:44.720 him by essentially laying a trap of religious belief. Interesting. 0:28:45.760 --> 0:28:48.200 I wasn't able to find much else on this this 0:28:48.520 --> 0:28:51.000 read this theory, but I find that fascinating. It reminds 0:28:51.040 --> 0:28:54.960 me of our our episode on ritual regicide, the idea 0:28:55.080 --> 0:28:59.320 that that even rulers can be trapped within this, uh, 0:28:59.440 --> 0:29:02.920 this myth cycle of death and rebirth. Yeah, I haven't 0:29:02.960 --> 0:29:04.920 thought about that episode much recently, but that was a 0:29:04.960 --> 0:29:07.600 really interesting one. You know, we talked about all the 0:29:07.920 --> 0:29:11.280 traditions of the sacrifice of the king. You often think 0:29:11.360 --> 0:29:15.000 of the king sacrificing like you know, other people captured 0:29:15.080 --> 0:29:18.680 enemies or whatever, but sometimes occupying a position of glory 0:29:18.800 --> 0:29:20.800 also puts a target on you, even a even a 0:29:20.880 --> 0:29:24.160 sacred or religious target. Yeah, so that's that's an interesting read. 0:29:24.200 --> 0:29:27.240 In this scenario, obviously that plan, if that was the plan, 0:29:27.880 --> 0:29:32.040 did not work. So what happens after an outside context problem? 0:29:32.080 --> 0:29:34.760 Will you end up with a struggle for cultural survival? Um? 0:29:34.920 --> 0:29:36.200 I mean that's kind of in a way the best 0:29:36.240 --> 0:29:39.600 case scenario, assuming you're not just completely destroyed decimated by 0:29:39.760 --> 0:29:42.400 the encounter and uh. One of the methods by which 0:29:42.480 --> 0:29:45.160 the old ways may be preserved is within the new. 0:29:45.600 --> 0:29:48.520 And we see this tradition of merging the idea of 0:29:48.640 --> 0:29:52.680 Ketzokadal with the apostle St. Thomas from Christian trade editions, 0:29:52.720 --> 0:29:55.600 who is said to have traveled far preaching the Gospel. 0:29:56.200 --> 0:29:58.360 And you see this and this is you know, after 0:29:58.480 --> 0:30:01.320 the fact, this is certainly more and say the uh, 0:30:01.440 --> 0:30:05.240 the seventeenth century, but you see this merging of iconography 0:30:05.280 --> 0:30:11.720 and identity where you have the plumid serpent God essentially 0:30:12.320 --> 0:30:17.640 crossed over with this Christian apostle. And by the seventeenth century, 0:30:17.720 --> 0:30:20.200 writers and priests began to make more of these comparisons, 0:30:20.560 --> 0:30:22.240 and the trend ended up dying back down in the 0:30:22.360 --> 0:30:26.000 nineteenth century. But but it's but it's it's fascinating to 0:30:26.040 --> 0:30:29.160 look at how these two figures became once more, ketzo 0:30:29.240 --> 0:30:33.560 Quaddle became associated merge with a historic individual. You know, 0:30:33.680 --> 0:30:37.080 I'm tempted to think that, I know, the members of 0:30:37.160 --> 0:30:39.960 the Church Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints believe that 0:30:40.240 --> 0:30:44.520 Jesus himself came and preached in the America's right. Yeah, exactly. 0:30:44.600 --> 0:30:47.160 And so you you do see this trend within the 0:30:47.240 --> 0:30:49.400 Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints of some 0:30:49.600 --> 0:30:57.280 individuals reinterpreting Ketzokuaddle as Jesus Christ. This, oddly enough, though, 0:30:57.320 --> 0:30:59.640 I have to point out, has no connection to the 0:30:59.720 --> 0:31:03.680 so called Jesus lizard of southern Mexico and Central America. 0:31:04.200 --> 0:31:06.880 Creatures that also bear the name of our previous topic, 0:31:07.240 --> 0:31:09.920 the basilists, right, the basilist lizards that can run on 0:31:10.000 --> 0:31:12.280 top of the water. Apparently I have nothing to do 0:31:12.480 --> 0:31:17.560 with quetzel kattle. Yeah, they're they're real lizards as opposed 0:31:17.600 --> 0:31:23.200 to mythological snake guy. Now, speaking of reptiles, lizards, snakes, 0:31:23.280 --> 0:31:25.160 all all that kind of stuff. One of the other 0:31:25.440 --> 0:31:28.320 avenues we wanted to explore, the idea of the plumed 0:31:28.360 --> 0:31:33.960 serpent in is stepping out of the specific religious context 0:31:34.080 --> 0:31:36.760 of keutzel Coatl himself, also getting away from the weird 0:31:36.880 --> 0:31:41.560 Larry co and monster version and looking at biology. So, Robert, 0:31:41.640 --> 0:31:43.400 do you want to go to a mental place with 0:31:43.440 --> 0:31:46.680 me to close your eyes and imagine. Imagine you're wandering 0:31:46.840 --> 0:31:49.920 through the jungle in Malaysia. In one nearby tree, you 0:31:50.040 --> 0:31:53.240 notice a snake with a speckled body of black, green 0:31:53.360 --> 0:31:56.480 and gold climbing vertically up the trunk of the tree. 0:31:57.120 --> 0:32:00.080 And it uses it's the scales on its underbelly to 0:32:00.120 --> 0:32:02.480 sort of grip the bark and slowly make its way 0:32:02.560 --> 0:32:05.440 up the tree, and eventually it forks off of the 0:32:05.520 --> 0:32:08.760 main trunk to explore a branch, and you wonder, what's 0:32:08.760 --> 0:32:10.760 it doing up there? Is it looking for something? Maybe 0:32:10.760 --> 0:32:12.840 it's looking for a bird's nest to raid or a 0:32:12.880 --> 0:32:16.000 sleeping bat to eat. And it doesn't find anything on 0:32:16.040 --> 0:32:19.040 the branch, but it keeps following the branch farther and 0:32:19.160 --> 0:32:22.840 farther out, and you're like, where's it going. There's not 0:32:23.000 --> 0:32:25.520 that much branch there, right, And then it goes all 0:32:25.560 --> 0:32:27.360 the way to the tip of the branch and there's 0:32:27.440 --> 0:32:30.000 just nothing nowhere left for it to go. Why is 0:32:30.040 --> 0:32:32.600 it doing that? And you might be wondering this when 0:32:32.640 --> 0:32:35.760 suddenly the snake coils its head off the branch and 0:32:35.920 --> 0:32:39.520 kind of a hanging j shape, and then it dives 0:32:39.600 --> 0:32:43.480 straight off the branch, straight in your direction. So obviously 0:32:43.600 --> 0:32:45.640 you might flinch and take cover right because the snake 0:32:45.760 --> 0:32:48.640 just doves straight at you. But then you realize it's 0:32:48.720 --> 0:32:51.920 not stick. Its path is not following a straight line. 0:32:51.960 --> 0:32:54.800 It's actually not diving straight at you at all, because 0:32:54.840 --> 0:32:58.200 immediately after the snake leaves the branch, it stops plunging 0:32:58.280 --> 0:33:01.360 down at a sharp angle and begins to gliding smoothly 0:33:01.480 --> 0:33:04.280 through the air and a kind of horizontal pattern as 0:33:04.360 --> 0:33:07.480 its body undulates in an S shape, and then finally 0:33:07.520 --> 0:33:10.360 it lands in another tree branch high above your head, 0:33:10.520 --> 0:33:14.000 in a different tree. You have just watched a snake fly. 0:33:14.800 --> 0:33:17.840 And these snakes are real. This would I can I 0:33:17.920 --> 0:33:20.840 can see, this would be a very alarming thing. Because again, 0:33:20.880 --> 0:33:22.800 if we have an innate fear of snakes and in 0:33:22.920 --> 0:33:24.959 all late well, and even if not a fear, at 0:33:25.000 --> 0:33:28.480 least a hyper awareness to them, like realizing that snakes 0:33:28.640 --> 0:33:32.680 can pose a risk to our mortality. And then here's 0:33:32.720 --> 0:33:35.160 one flying through the air like they they should not 0:33:35.240 --> 0:33:37.200 be able to do. They should be creatures of the ground, 0:33:37.520 --> 0:33:40.080 and this one is seemingly a creature of the air. Yeah, 0:33:40.120 --> 0:33:41.960 I mean, it's it's the thing that should not be 0:33:42.360 --> 0:33:45.440 You could not blame someone for reacting with horror and all. 0:33:46.040 --> 0:33:48.120 But one thing I should be clear about immediately is 0:33:48.160 --> 0:33:50.800 that these types of snakes, I believe they are venomous, 0:33:50.880 --> 0:33:54.040 but not especially venomous, so they're not really dangerous to humans. 0:33:54.240 --> 0:33:56.720 I mean, generally we don't want to promote snake fear 0:33:56.800 --> 0:33:59.480 of any kind, but these especially, they're they're not really 0:33:59.560 --> 0:34:03.040 dangerous humans. So there are five species of snake in 0:34:03.120 --> 0:34:08.200 the genus Chrysopelia, native to South and Southeast Asia, including 0:34:08.239 --> 0:34:14.200 countries like Malaysia, Indonesia, India, South China, Vietnam, Cambodia, loose 0:34:14.280 --> 0:34:18.360 in other places, generally southern and Southeast Asia. They generally 0:34:18.400 --> 0:34:20.399 grow up to about one point two meters or about 0:34:20.440 --> 0:34:24.960 four feet long. And Chrysopelia are the flying snakes, or 0:34:25.120 --> 0:34:28.480 perhaps more appropriately the gliding snakes. Because you've got to 0:34:28.520 --> 0:34:30.680 make that important distinction, I would say usually the way 0:34:30.719 --> 0:34:35.120 we use the word flying means to travel horizontally through 0:34:35.160 --> 0:34:37.759 the air on your own power. You know, it's self 0:34:37.880 --> 0:34:42.239 powered flight in a way that can theoretically continue gaining altitude, 0:34:42.719 --> 0:34:46.640 whereas gliding is using existing momentum. The momentum you've already 0:34:46.680 --> 0:34:50.319 got to travel horizontally through the air without losing altitude 0:34:50.360 --> 0:34:55.560 too fast. Airplanes fly, hang, gliders glide, and these snakes glide. 0:34:55.920 --> 0:34:58.880 So on average, these snakes can cover a horizontal distance 0:34:58.920 --> 0:35:01.719 of about ten or about thirty three ft from a 0:35:01.800 --> 0:35:04.560 branch at a starting height of about nine meters or 0:35:04.560 --> 0:35:07.759 about twenty nine point five feet. Some reports have them 0:35:07.760 --> 0:35:11.520 flying much farther. I read a National Geographic article that 0:35:11.719 --> 0:35:14.080 claimed they've been known to glide up to a hundred 0:35:14.200 --> 0:35:17.399 meters horizontally, but I couldn't determine the source of that claim. 0:35:17.440 --> 0:35:20.239 It seems kind of nuts, but maybe you know, we 0:35:20.280 --> 0:35:23.160 can take it. So in order to fly like that, 0:35:23.360 --> 0:35:26.439 obviously the snakes they can't flap their wings. They don't 0:35:26.520 --> 0:35:28.960 have wings. So what do they do? How do you 0:35:29.280 --> 0:35:32.880 generate the lift to glide like that? And the answer is, 0:35:32.960 --> 0:35:36.000 instead of flapping their wings, they turn their whole body 0:35:36.080 --> 0:35:39.600 into a wing. So wings work, and this would be 0:35:39.640 --> 0:35:42.320 the simple version, by guiding air flow in such a 0:35:42.360 --> 0:35:44.800 way as to generate lift. And generally they do this 0:35:44.960 --> 0:35:49.319 by trying to form a relatively flat, horizontal surface under 0:35:49.360 --> 0:35:52.279 which air can flow and push the flying object up 0:35:52.320 --> 0:35:55.239 against gravity. So if you're a snake and you want 0:35:55.280 --> 0:35:57.800 to turn your snake body into a wing or a 0:35:57.880 --> 0:36:00.600 pseudo wing, one thing you'd probably want to do is 0:36:00.719 --> 0:36:04.480 make yourself as flat and as wide as possible, and 0:36:04.560 --> 0:36:07.320 that's exactly what they do. So in recent years, a 0:36:07.360 --> 0:36:10.759 few studies, often associated with a Virginia tech biologist named 0:36:10.840 --> 0:36:15.480 Jake Soca, have captured and analyzed high speed video of 0:36:15.640 --> 0:36:19.240 the flying snakes, and also made digital and physical models 0:36:19.280 --> 0:36:22.520 based on these analyzes to understand how they glide from 0:36:22.560 --> 0:36:25.040 tree to tree, and what they found is that these 0:36:25.080 --> 0:36:28.920 snakes can literally splay their own ribs out to the 0:36:29.080 --> 0:36:33.800 sides and flatten their body into a semiconcave cross section. 0:36:34.239 --> 0:36:36.880 So imagine a snake. You know, you normally imagine the 0:36:36.920 --> 0:36:39.040 skeleton of a snake has got a backbone and then 0:36:39.160 --> 0:36:43.040 kind of a circle of ribs forming almost a cylinder, right, 0:36:43.800 --> 0:36:47.840 So imagine that C shape of the ribs. Instead spreading 0:36:47.920 --> 0:36:50.800 out like a bird opening its wings, the ribs spread 0:36:50.840 --> 0:36:53.520 out kind of flat, and in doing this, the snake 0:36:53.600 --> 0:36:57.959 can basically double its width. But then it also undulates 0:36:58.040 --> 0:37:01.160 in an S shape as it glides with waves traveling 0:37:01.239 --> 0:37:03.359 down the length of the body, and this also helps 0:37:03.440 --> 0:37:06.520 keep it aloft. So the whole process begins with a 0:37:06.719 --> 0:37:10.080 ballistic dive where the snake reaches off of the off 0:37:10.120 --> 0:37:13.360 of the branch, spreads its ribs and goes flat, gathers 0:37:13.400 --> 0:37:15.880 its body into an S shape, and then it begins 0:37:15.960 --> 0:37:20.640 to wriggle the S shape in large amplitude undulations. And 0:37:20.719 --> 0:37:23.560 this process allows the snake, instead of falling straight toward 0:37:23.600 --> 0:37:27.160 the ground, to glide an angle of about fifteen degrees 0:37:27.239 --> 0:37:30.520 to about thirty five degrees until it floats down at 0:37:30.600 --> 0:37:34.160 its target destination. Speaking to the BBC for an article, 0:37:34.239 --> 0:37:37.120 Soka characterized it as sort of like the animal is 0:37:37.239 --> 0:37:41.800 swimming in air. I could see where that just seeing 0:37:41.880 --> 0:37:45.000 something like that would open the door from mystical interpretations. Yeah, 0:37:45.080 --> 0:37:47.680 you've gotta wonder if somebody saw that in ancient times, 0:37:47.760 --> 0:37:49.520 how would they not come up with some kind of 0:37:49.640 --> 0:37:52.480 dragon based on it or something. Now, of course, this 0:37:52.640 --> 0:37:54.959 is not This is not something that you would find 0:37:55.040 --> 0:37:58.279 in Mesoamerica. So we're not saying that this snake inspired 0:37:58.400 --> 0:38:02.520 the Cutzel Coadal story or anything like that. But you 0:38:02.600 --> 0:38:06.600 can see how similar ideas of flying serpents plumed serpents 0:38:06.719 --> 0:38:09.439 might be inspired by something like this. Now, of course, 0:38:09.520 --> 0:38:12.880 every article about this research also mentions, Robert, can you 0:38:12.920 --> 0:38:15.360 guess what it also mentions in the very last paragraph 0:38:15.440 --> 0:38:18.440 of every one of these articles, snakes on a plane? No, 0:38:19.880 --> 0:38:22.880 what will we use this knowledge of analyzing snake flight 0:38:22.960 --> 0:38:25.840 to do? Oh? Yes, well, that's that's the closing of 0:38:25.880 --> 0:38:29.040 any good science article, right, What are the practical applications? 0:38:29.200 --> 0:38:33.319 Build robots? Always says, build robots. There's so many of these. 0:38:33.719 --> 0:38:37.920 I wish we could just get more science articles that say, 0:38:37.960 --> 0:38:40.920 you know what, it's just great to study snakes, and 0:38:41.040 --> 0:38:43.400 they don't have to justify it at the end by 0:38:43.480 --> 0:38:46.000 saying we will use this knowledge one day to build 0:38:46.080 --> 0:38:49.920 weapons snakes that fly into enemy territory in ways you 0:38:50.000 --> 0:38:53.840 can't possibly imagine. Well, But at the same time, I 0:38:53.880 --> 0:38:55.719 do understand that, you know you you want to end 0:38:55.760 --> 0:38:59.040 on a really strong aw note with the science article 0:38:59.080 --> 0:39:02.320 and and and off times. That's the future applications, that's 0:39:02.320 --> 0:39:05.440 where you find that gold. But these snakes themselves inspire all. 0:39:05.560 --> 0:39:08.120 Look this up. Watch the video as imagine this is 0:39:08.200 --> 0:39:11.400 a snake flying. I mean it's not it's not gaining out, 0:39:11.520 --> 0:39:14.600 but it's gliding tree to tree. It's it's amazing to see. 0:39:15.120 --> 0:39:18.279 This is what's all inspiring. Not to knock people who 0:39:18.320 --> 0:39:21.800 make robots. Making robots is great. I didn't mean to 0:39:22.040 --> 0:39:24.920 come off overly strong there. I'm all, I'm all for robots, 0:39:25.040 --> 0:39:27.600 but come on, you don't have to justify it by 0:39:27.680 --> 0:39:30.800 making robots. You could just study snakes and that'd be great. 0:39:31.160 --> 0:39:34.279 I can get behind that. One more thing, of course, 0:39:34.320 --> 0:39:37.520 to mention is that there are of course also flying lizards. Again, 0:39:37.640 --> 0:39:39.440 if you want to go in the sort of flying 0:39:39.520 --> 0:39:42.840 reptile direction. Again, this would be gliding, not flying. But 0:39:42.960 --> 0:39:46.239 the draco lizards of the Draco genus are also found 0:39:46.280 --> 0:39:49.000 in Southeast Asia, and they've got rib flaps that fold 0:39:49.080 --> 0:39:50.960 up against the body when not in use, but they 0:39:50.960 --> 0:39:53.520 can be spread out to form a wing and allow 0:39:53.640 --> 0:39:57.040 the lizard to glide between trees. Now, the thing I 0:39:57.160 --> 0:39:59.600 was wondering is why would snakes and lizards need to 0:39:59.640 --> 0:40:04.399 glie between trees? What's useful about that? And so there 0:40:04.440 --> 0:40:06.640 I think there are a couple of hypotheses. One is 0:40:06.680 --> 0:40:08.719 that once you're already up in a tree and you 0:40:08.760 --> 0:40:10.600 want to get in another tree, it might take less 0:40:10.760 --> 0:40:13.279 energy to glide to another tree than to climb down 0:40:13.320 --> 0:40:15.440 and climb back up. That makes sense. But then the 0:40:15.520 --> 0:40:18.240 other thing, that maybe the bigger thing, is that crossing 0:40:18.320 --> 0:40:21.800 the forest floor exposes you to large predators. The forest 0:40:21.880 --> 0:40:24.680 floor is the danger zone. Once you're up in a tree, 0:40:24.760 --> 0:40:27.640 you're safer. So once you are in the safety of 0:40:27.680 --> 0:40:29.640 a tree, it would be much better if you could 0:40:29.719 --> 0:40:32.360 glide from tree to tree instead of having to go 0:40:32.480 --> 0:40:34.960 back down across the forest floor and maybe get picked 0:40:35.040 --> 0:40:36.840 up by a leopard along the way. Now, this might 0:40:36.920 --> 0:40:38.520 not be a factor, but it also seems like if 0:40:38.760 --> 0:40:42.560 something were perhaps following you or stalking you. Um, you know, 0:40:42.680 --> 0:40:44.319 this is a great way to escape them. From one 0:40:44.360 --> 0:40:46.319 tree to the other. You can glide and it can't 0:40:46.800 --> 0:40:48.640 if there's a monkey in the tree that wants to 0:40:48.719 --> 0:40:51.279 eat you. You know, you can glide farther than that 0:40:51.400 --> 0:40:54.080 monkey can jump potentially. Yeah, though some of those monkeys 0:40:54.120 --> 0:40:57.000 can jump. Right, all right, we need to take a 0:40:57.080 --> 0:40:59.240 quick break. When when we come back, we will discuss 0:40:59.600 --> 0:41:02.480 the key of the beastly flyers of the ancient past, 0:41:02.920 --> 0:41:10.000 the pterosaurs. Than all right, we're back, Robert, take me 0:41:10.239 --> 0:41:13.759 to the pterosaurs. All right, Well, we're talking about one 0:41:13.880 --> 0:41:16.120 particular terras, so we're all familiar with pterosaurs. I think 0:41:16.120 --> 0:41:19.400 at this point these are the the flying creatures of 0:41:19.719 --> 0:41:24.080 the prehistoric world, the flying lizards of the prehistoric world, 0:41:24.320 --> 0:41:27.839 not dinosaurs, right, not dinosaurs. You call him dinosaur, your 0:41:27.880 --> 0:41:30.440 six year old will correct you. Um, I have I 0:41:30.520 --> 0:41:33.160 have had this happened before, because sometimes that you do 0:41:33.320 --> 0:41:36.640 just sort of like a like a like non scientifically, 0:41:36.719 --> 0:41:39.759 you just refer to everything from the dinosaur age as 0:41:39.800 --> 0:41:44.040 a dinosaur, and uh, yeah, it's inaccurate to call everything 0:41:44.480 --> 0:41:48.279 a dinosaur. So the the king or one of the 0:41:48.400 --> 0:41:53.320 kings of the of the pterosaurs was undisputably a creature 0:41:53.400 --> 0:41:57.680 that is that now bears the name Ketsokadalus, and you'll 0:41:57.719 --> 0:42:01.120 never guess what he's named. He's an himed after Ketsoquaddle, 0:42:01.200 --> 0:42:04.760 the the the meso American snake god. Robert. You actually 0:42:04.840 --> 0:42:08.800 did a reading from a children's book on the podcast 0:42:08.880 --> 0:42:11.480 one time that had a great little, you know, sub 0:42:11.640 --> 0:42:15.200 story about Ketzel Coatless and it ended with this this, 0:42:15.800 --> 0:42:19.800 I am Ketzel Coatlas. Yes, I forget the author's name offhand, 0:42:19.840 --> 0:42:21.320 but if you do a search for I am Ketzo 0:42:21.400 --> 0:42:26.879 Coatless or I am I think there's one on Diplodocus 0:42:26.920 --> 0:42:29.960 as well, but they're all, like really, they're all really 0:42:30.000 --> 0:42:33.399 good children's books about dinosaurs that do not candy coat 0:42:34.120 --> 0:42:36.520 the life and death nature of of a of a 0:42:36.680 --> 0:42:41.360 prehistar creature's life. So we're talking about as far as 0:42:41.440 --> 0:42:45.640 Ketzkatless goes. We're talking about the Cretaceous period, and we're 0:42:45.640 --> 0:42:49.440 talking about the region that is now known as North America. 0:42:50.320 --> 0:42:54.280 First fossils were discovered in Texas in the early nineteen seventies, 0:42:54.840 --> 0:42:59.520 and this this creature was apparently just a flying monster. 0:43:00.200 --> 0:43:04.960 This thing was incredibly huge. Uh. The estimated wingspan, and 0:43:05.040 --> 0:43:06.960 this is something that's changed over the years, that was 0:43:07.040 --> 0:43:09.440 higher than they kind of kind of scaled back, but 0:43:10.600 --> 0:43:14.160 current data seems to put it estimated at around thirty 0:43:14.239 --> 0:43:16.800 three to thirty six ft or ten to eleven meters. 0:43:17.640 --> 0:43:22.360 That's roughly the wingspan of a mid sized airplane. For instance, Uh, 0:43:22.560 --> 0:43:25.760 the World War two US fighter P fifty one Mustang 0:43:26.080 --> 0:43:28.400 that had a wingspan of thirty seven ft or eleven 0:43:28.440 --> 0:43:31.680 point twenty eight ms. The swept wing span of an 0:43:31.719 --> 0:43:34.719 F FOURT Team Tomcat. That's the uh, the fighter plane 0:43:34.760 --> 0:43:37.759 from top gun for anybody who can make that connection, Uh, 0:43:38.080 --> 0:43:40.840 that has a swept wingspan of thirty eight feet or 0:43:40.880 --> 0:43:44.520 eleven point fifty five What has swept me? So the 0:43:44.719 --> 0:43:47.880 the F fourteen can fly with its wings in a 0:43:47.960 --> 0:43:51.440 swept position or in an extended position. I see when 0:43:51.719 --> 0:43:54.799 when it becomes sort of streamlined. Yeah, okay, Yeah. There 0:43:54.880 --> 0:43:57.520 was a great g I Joe toy airplane that was 0:43:57.640 --> 0:44:00.800 essentially an F fourteen, uh, and it had wings that 0:44:00.920 --> 0:44:03.920 moved like that. That's my main connection with it. So 0:44:04.160 --> 0:44:07.040 compared to other things that fly and have wings. This 0:44:07.239 --> 0:44:11.400 thing was an absolute beast, absolutely. I mean, even if 0:44:11.440 --> 0:44:14.640 it's on the ground, this was a huge creature. So 0:44:14.760 --> 0:44:18.000 in a bipedal stance, it would have stood roughly three 0:44:18.120 --> 0:44:21.200 meters or nine point eight feet tall, and it may 0:44:21.239 --> 0:44:25.680 have scrambled around and like this kind of quadripue quadropedal stance. However, 0:44:25.800 --> 0:44:27.799 much like a bat. Have you ever seen it? Um? 0:44:28.480 --> 0:44:30.680 Bats crawled, bats crawl or some of the I think 0:44:30.680 --> 0:44:34.640 there's creepy. Look, it's creepy. Yeah, there's one particular I 0:44:34.719 --> 0:44:37.080 believe there's even one particular species of bad it's primary 0:44:37.120 --> 0:44:40.719 primarily ground based. Uh, and it is. It's kind of 0:44:40.719 --> 0:44:43.000 creepy to look at. So this thing might have scrambled 0:44:43.000 --> 0:44:46.520 around like that, But by many estimates, including Ruta and 0:44:46.640 --> 0:44:50.720 bent On in Evolution of morpheological Disparity in Terra Sours 0:44:50.760 --> 0:44:54.440 from two thousand eleven, this mighty flying beast would have 0:44:54.520 --> 0:44:58.040 probably stood roughly as tall as a modern day giraffe, 0:44:58.440 --> 0:45:00.880 but with just a far larger head. Yeah, kind of 0:45:00.920 --> 0:45:04.200 like giraffe with with like a screwed up lizard like 0:45:04.360 --> 0:45:09.160 pelican head. Yeah, like this great squatting winged beast. Just 0:45:09.280 --> 0:45:12.160 imagine that thing looming over you. I feel like this 0:45:12.520 --> 0:45:14.960 thing should be right up there with the Tarandosaurus rex. 0:45:15.120 --> 0:45:19.319 You know, people should appreciated them on the same level. Yeah, 0:45:19.360 --> 0:45:23.120 I mean, I really, it's it's amazing. It is. I mean, 0:45:23.200 --> 0:45:26.320 it's it's I mean, certainly all the terosaurs are amazing creatures. 0:45:26.600 --> 0:45:29.560 To look back on this, this evolved mode of flying 0:45:29.719 --> 0:45:31.960 that that again is is a little bit different from 0:45:33.160 --> 0:45:35.680 from birds or bats. It is like we have essentially 0:45:35.760 --> 0:45:39.040 three modes of vertebrate flight that evolved, and this is 0:45:39.120 --> 0:45:43.200 one of them. And that's talking about powered flight, not correct. Uh, 0:45:43.400 --> 0:45:45.279 you know, and thinking about this, you know, like again, 0:45:45.320 --> 0:45:47.120 it would have it would have seemed like a god 0:45:47.200 --> 0:45:48.960 if you were able to see it. And uh, I 0:45:49.239 --> 0:45:53.640 can't help but think of Edgar Rice Burrows. Uh pellucidar 0:45:53.680 --> 0:45:56.640 I believe is the pronunciation. Uh, a series of books 0:45:56.680 --> 0:46:00.200 that's a setting that he did them. I haven't haven't either, 0:46:00.280 --> 0:46:02.040 but I was introduced to them just by some of 0:46:02.120 --> 0:46:05.560 the art. Initially, they feature a psychic master race of 0:46:05.640 --> 0:46:09.719 flying reptiles called the Mahars, and they pop up. They 0:46:09.760 --> 0:46:12.440 also pop up in the nineteen seventies six movie At 0:46:12.520 --> 0:46:17.520 the Earth's Core starring Peter Cushing. Yes, Doug McClure, oh boy, 0:46:17.800 --> 0:46:21.160 and Caroline Monroe. Wow, I've got to see that. How 0:46:21.200 --> 0:46:23.520 have I not? Well, I'll tell you. It's actually one 0:46:23.560 --> 0:46:26.480 of the movies in the most recent Mystery Science Theater 0:46:26.560 --> 0:46:29.960 three thousands serially season, So that all star cast, that 0:46:30.080 --> 0:46:33.000 all star cast. If you want to see see Peter 0:46:33.080 --> 0:46:36.239 Cushing just totally misused in a film, this is a 0:46:36.280 --> 0:46:39.040 great place to find it. Peter Cushing was misused in 0:46:39.120 --> 0:46:42.600 about nine percent of the films he was in, but 0:46:42.800 --> 0:46:45.319 this one especially because you got Doug McClure in there 0:46:45.360 --> 0:46:47.200 to play kind of a goofus, which he did well. 0:46:47.280 --> 0:46:50.560 I love Doug McClure. Yeah, he's the classic mid century 0:46:50.640 --> 0:46:53.920 movie lug. Yeah. But then Peter Cushing also kind of 0:46:54.000 --> 0:46:57.400 plays a dufus, so it's I think he's a scientist dufus. 0:46:57.520 --> 0:46:59.840 And then you have like two different levels of dufus 0:47:00.080 --> 0:47:03.440 going up against stuff forces they can how should comprehend 0:47:03.600 --> 0:47:06.520 How sharp are his cheekbones in it? Does he cut 0:47:06.600 --> 0:47:08.440 anything with them? I don't know. They might have been 0:47:08.520 --> 0:47:10.560 dulling a bit by that point, I have to say, 0:47:11.400 --> 0:47:13.920 But but he's still it's still Peter Cushing, So it's 0:47:13.960 --> 0:47:16.480 still a lot of fun. But you have these kind 0:47:16.560 --> 0:47:22.439 of wretched looking Terra Sar mahar Uh creatures that show 0:47:22.520 --> 0:47:25.680 up in the film. There's also a I think it's 0:47:25.680 --> 0:47:28.200 a Boris file a Jo painting that was done for 0:47:28.280 --> 0:47:30.879 one of these book covers that has a of course, 0:47:31.160 --> 0:47:34.279 like a scantily clad woman, uh. And there's this terrace 0:47:34.320 --> 0:47:37.319 star creature, one of these Mahars creeping up on her 0:47:37.680 --> 0:47:40.800 to snatch her away, because you know, it's Edgar Rice Burrows. 0:47:40.880 --> 0:47:44.120 That's that's kind of the plot. And I can't help 0:47:44.160 --> 0:47:47.439 but assume that the Mahars also inspired the Savage Land 0:47:47.600 --> 0:47:50.600 Mutants saw On from the X Men comics. Not saar 0:47:50.719 --> 0:47:53.040 On from Lord of the Rings, but the what is 0:47:53.120 --> 0:47:56.440 essentially like a Terra Saar human ooid that the Mutants 0:47:56.760 --> 0:47:59.480 battle in those comic books. Okay, so what else do 0:47:59.560 --> 0:48:02.520 we know out this creature, the quetzal Katlas? All right, Well, 0:48:02.560 --> 0:48:04.600 in a way, it's fitting that the creature is named 0:48:04.680 --> 0:48:06.759 for a god with so much mystery around it, because 0:48:06.800 --> 0:48:11.480 a lot of mystery remains surrounding this massive, winged prehistoric creature. 0:48:11.840 --> 0:48:13.520 And this, of course is part of the course with 0:48:13.680 --> 0:48:17.400 fossil remains, paleontologists have to solve the riddle of the 0:48:17.480 --> 0:48:20.200 remains as best they can. We have all these you know, 0:48:20.320 --> 0:48:23.000 massive gaps in the in the in the fossil record, 0:48:23.080 --> 0:48:25.399 and that's just part of trying to understand the past 0:48:25.480 --> 0:48:29.200 through fossils. We have, I think, based on I think 0:48:29.239 --> 0:48:33.000 current data, we have I think only one adult Quetzo 0:48:33.080 --> 0:48:36.800 katlas fossil to go off of, and it's only wing fragments. 0:48:37.280 --> 0:48:42.960 The other specimens have been like smaller, like younger um specimens. 0:48:44.160 --> 0:48:46.759 So we we've seen a wide range of estimates than 0:48:46.800 --> 0:48:50.719 regarding the flying or gliding abilities of the Ketzo katlas, 0:48:51.560 --> 0:48:54.279 a creature with more of an inland range than many 0:48:54.320 --> 0:48:57.120 of its flying relatives, So we don't know exactly. We 0:48:57.200 --> 0:49:01.080 don't know for sure to what extent it flew exactly. 0:49:01.600 --> 0:49:04.759 For instance, Donald M. Henderson went so far in his 0:49:04.880 --> 0:49:08.279 two thousand nine Journal Vertebrate Paleontology article to wonder if 0:49:08.320 --> 0:49:11.879 it could fly at all. He argued that given its 0:49:12.000 --> 0:49:15.960 estimated body mass, this was maybe a flightless creature. Oh yeah, 0:49:16.040 --> 0:49:20.759 it might be like the ostrich of pterosaurs or something. Um. Yeah, 0:49:20.840 --> 0:49:23.640 you always have to wonder, because I mean, so there 0:49:23.680 --> 0:49:28.239 are limits on the size that an organism could reasonably 0:49:28.360 --> 0:49:30.680 be expected to fly. Right. You know, you might wonder 0:49:30.840 --> 0:49:34.080 like how come dragons don't exist? What why don't we 0:49:34.280 --> 0:49:37.960 see birds with a hundred foot wingspan? And I think 0:49:38.160 --> 0:49:39.880 part of that has to do with like how how 0:49:40.120 --> 0:49:43.719 mass scales up with relationship to volume. Right, Like, one 0:49:43.760 --> 0:49:46.400 of the reasons you can't get super giant creatures is 0:49:46.480 --> 0:49:49.920 that would be cooling problems with like the surface area 0:49:50.120 --> 0:49:53.000 of the giant creature, how much stuff it's got inside 0:49:53.080 --> 0:49:56.600 it um And you would probably encounter similar problems when 0:49:56.640 --> 0:49:59.880 you keep trying to scale up bigger and bigger flying organism. 0:50:00.360 --> 0:50:02.719 As the mass keeps going up, it's going to take 0:50:02.800 --> 0:50:05.840 more and more power to lift that mass off the ground. 0:50:06.320 --> 0:50:09.960 And you know, well you can. You can generate lift 0:50:10.000 --> 0:50:12.680 in multiple ways. You can have bigger wings, but eventually, 0:50:12.800 --> 0:50:16.239 like you'd run into structural problems like where bones would 0:50:16.280 --> 0:50:18.360 not be strong enough to support the wings at a 0:50:18.400 --> 0:50:21.560 certain amount of you know, size and weight. Or you 0:50:21.640 --> 0:50:24.800 could have more powerful muscles to flap them harder and faster, 0:50:24.960 --> 0:50:27.360 but eventually you might run into fuel problems. I mean, 0:50:27.560 --> 0:50:31.120 they're just physics limits on how big a flying organism 0:50:31.200 --> 0:50:33.320 can get. And you know, I have to say that 0:50:33.560 --> 0:50:38.040 a flightless catsl co outless is terrifying in its own way, 0:50:38.080 --> 0:50:40.360 because here it would be a situation where here's a 0:50:40.400 --> 0:50:42.680 creature that is like I don't have to fly anymore 0:50:43.040 --> 0:50:45.480 because I'm enormous, and I will just eat you with 0:50:45.600 --> 0:50:48.359 my toothless beak. I would just gobble you up. I mean, 0:50:48.400 --> 0:50:51.319 I want this is not based on evidence, is just speculating. 0:50:51.520 --> 0:50:54.480 I wonder if you could also imagine something like a chicken, 0:50:54.719 --> 0:50:57.960 where it's not a flying bird, but it's a bird 0:50:58.040 --> 0:51:00.319 that can sort of like use wings to it off 0:51:00.400 --> 0:51:02.600 the ground for a short period of time. I mean 0:51:03.160 --> 0:51:05.960 you wonder about like maybe it doesn't sustain flight, but 0:51:06.040 --> 0:51:08.760 it's sort of like hops up and flies very briefly 0:51:08.800 --> 0:51:11.800 in order to swoop down and pounce something. Right, But 0:51:11.920 --> 0:51:13.680 this is not the only argument that you have the 0:51:13.840 --> 0:51:15.719 the other end of the spectrum, For instance, where a 0:51:15.800 --> 0:51:21.280 British paleontologist Mark Witten, working with biomechanics researcher Mike Habib, 0:51:21.800 --> 0:51:25.319 modeled the creature in two and argued that he could 0:51:25.360 --> 0:51:27.600 fly up to eighty miles an hour or a hundred 0:51:27.600 --> 0:51:30.319 and twenty eight kilometers per hour for seven to ten 0:51:30.480 --> 0:51:33.719 days at altitudes of fifteen thousand feet or four point 0:51:33.760 --> 0:51:37.200 six kilometers, with a maximum range of between eight thousand 0:51:37.320 --> 0:51:40.400 and twelve thousand miles. That's up to nineteen thousand, three 0:51:40.480 --> 0:51:44.000 hundred and twelve kilometers. Wow, so that's some range. Yeah, 0:51:44.160 --> 0:51:46.520 that is so if you're a flint stone and you 0:51:46.600 --> 0:51:48.920 want to ride a dinosaur for like a for a 0:51:49.200 --> 0:51:52.240 transoceanic flight, this is the one you want to snag. 0:51:52.760 --> 0:51:55.640 You know, it's not a dinosaur, sorry, a pterosaur quetzo 0:51:55.719 --> 0:51:59.680 koitles air. But then we also have more balanced to 0:51:59.760 --> 0:52:03.240 pro just falling in between these two. For instance, paleobiologist 0:52:03.360 --> 0:52:07.440 David Unwin believes that the creatures could certainly fly, but 0:52:07.600 --> 0:52:10.200 we don't really have a lot else to go on. Again, 0:52:10.280 --> 0:52:13.200 think to the limited fossils we talked about earlier. He 0:52:14.000 --> 0:52:17.440 argues that the distance estimates here might be just premature. 0:52:19.080 --> 0:52:20.840 It's also been argued in some of these models that 0:52:20.920 --> 0:52:23.040 the creature, if it could fly, you know, it could 0:52:23.080 --> 0:52:27.360 probably get aloft via a high powered four legged pounce 0:52:27.440 --> 0:52:30.360 into the air, which I have to say that is 0:52:30.600 --> 0:52:33.719 alone is just amazing to try and envision, imagine this 0:52:33.880 --> 0:52:37.560 massive dump truck of a creature just launching into the air. 0:52:37.719 --> 0:52:41.440 And then flapping like crazy and uh, descending a winged 0:52:41.520 --> 0:52:45.480 giraffe with a giant pelican head, leaping into the clouds 0:52:46.000 --> 0:52:48.160 and then once it's once it's up or or once 0:52:48.200 --> 0:52:51.560 it lands again, the question is, well, what does it eat? Well, 0:52:52.280 --> 0:52:55.560 one theory the answer is you, well, yes, if we were, 0:52:55.640 --> 0:52:57.600 if we were around, that would that would probably be 0:52:57.719 --> 0:53:00.600 a possibility. But one theory was that it was a 0:53:00.680 --> 0:53:03.359 scavenger and it used its long beak to like dig 0:53:03.440 --> 0:53:08.160 into dino corpses, which would also seem to work given 0:53:08.200 --> 0:53:10.320 their inland range. You know, so this is not a 0:53:10.360 --> 0:53:12.520 thing that's going out and needing a lot of sea creatures. 0:53:13.440 --> 0:53:17.520 But perhaps it's flying over vast distances and encountering dead 0:53:17.560 --> 0:53:20.719 dinosaurs and it can go down and feast. Uh. And 0:53:20.840 --> 0:53:24.600 of course flying is an attractive foraging strategy for scavengers, right, Yeah, 0:53:24.640 --> 0:53:27.480 you have a tremendous ability to to take in the 0:53:27.560 --> 0:53:30.759 surrounding the region. But they also could have skimmed fish 0:53:30.880 --> 0:53:34.560 from freshwater lakes and rivers. That's one theory, but it's 0:53:34.560 --> 0:53:36.919 also been pointed out that they likely lacked the next 0:53:36.960 --> 0:53:40.319 structure and jaw to really carry that out. A more 0:53:40.480 --> 0:53:43.160 likely hypothesis apparently is that they fed much like a 0:53:43.239 --> 0:53:48.280 modern stork, stalking shorelines for large and small prey alike. 0:53:49.200 --> 0:53:51.200 And uh, I have to say that that is a 0:53:51.320 --> 0:53:54.760 terrifying possibility, because if you've ever seen footage of storks 0:53:54.880 --> 0:53:58.840 engaging in this sort of terrestrial hunting practice, uh, it 0:53:59.000 --> 0:54:02.320 can be it can be pretty horrifying. I accidentally showed 0:54:02.560 --> 0:54:04.160 some footage from a documentary I want to say it 0:54:04.239 --> 0:54:08.719 was a Disney's Flamingo documentary, uh, to my son, and 0:54:09.080 --> 0:54:10.680 he was younger at the time, and there's a scene 0:54:10.719 --> 0:54:14.000 where the stork just is stalking the shore and gobbling 0:54:14.080 --> 0:54:18.279 up live flamingo chicks. Yeah, it's it's absolutely horrifying. After 0:54:18.360 --> 0:54:21.279 he saw that, uh, there was some some later point 0:54:21.480 --> 0:54:24.040 we'd forgotten about it, and then we tried to show 0:54:24.120 --> 0:54:26.000 him a cartoon that has, you know, the typical like 0:54:26.120 --> 0:54:28.719 stork and baby motif. It might have been in one 0:54:28.760 --> 0:54:31.839 of the Pixar shorts, and he was instantly not having 0:54:31.880 --> 0:54:33.920 any of it. He's like, I know what storks are about, 0:54:34.400 --> 0:54:36.120 and you're not going to show me this this, uh, 0:54:36.239 --> 0:54:40.160 this short film that involves human babies and storks, because 0:54:40.200 --> 0:54:42.279 I know what's going to happen that baby is gonna 0:54:42.320 --> 0:54:45.560 get gobbled. No. I mean we we try to present 0:54:45.680 --> 0:54:49.440 a level headed view of predation in nature, but sometimes 0:54:49.600 --> 0:54:52.320 you just do have a visceral emotional reaction. And I 0:54:52.400 --> 0:54:54.440 know exactly what you're talking about. I haven't seen storks, 0:54:54.520 --> 0:54:57.400 but I've seen video of UM. I believe it's in 0:54:57.560 --> 0:55:02.959 U some David Attenborough near rated documentary UM that had 0:55:03.160 --> 0:55:08.840 not storks but pelicans eating baby birds. Just horrifying. Watch it. 0:55:08.960 --> 0:55:11.520 Like the way they don't blink, They just got these 0:55:11.600 --> 0:55:15.279 big lower beak areas and they just scoop up the 0:55:15.320 --> 0:55:18.080 baby birds in and they're like wings and legs poking 0:55:18.120 --> 0:55:21.680 out of their mouth and stuff. Is just horrible, frightful. 0:55:22.200 --> 0:55:24.959 So I'm sorry, now I shouldn't apply that moralistic tone 0:55:25.000 --> 0:55:27.160 to nature, but like it. It is hard to watch. 0:55:27.520 --> 0:55:29.840 But here's the question with the quetzo quatless. Would it 0:55:29.880 --> 0:55:33.160 be able to scoop sunbathers up from a New York rooftops. 0:55:34.000 --> 0:55:35.839 I would say probably not. I think it would need 0:55:35.880 --> 0:55:38.560 to land in Central Park where it would still have 0:55:38.640 --> 0:55:41.759 plenty to eat. It could attack picnickers and like young 0:55:41.880 --> 0:55:45.920 people making out on blankets. Um, you know, school groups 0:55:45.960 --> 0:55:48.759 that have arrived there to play soccer, whatnot. There's so 0:55:48.920 --> 0:55:51.240 much to eat in Central Park. Hey, we've seen pizza 0:55:51.320 --> 0:55:55.360 at now you get pizza ketsel coatlas exactly, just the 0:55:55.640 --> 0:55:58.200 junk food. It doesn't need to even deal with live pray. 0:55:58.520 --> 0:56:00.120 All right. Well, as we begin to close thing is 0:56:00.120 --> 0:56:02.600 out here, I do want to mention that there there, 0:56:03.160 --> 0:56:06.600 Ketzo Quaddle has has survived to a certain extent or 0:56:06.640 --> 0:56:08.880 re emerged in culture. It hasn't been like the complete 0:56:09.320 --> 0:56:14.840 second Coming that was perhaps prophesized, but he remains a 0:56:15.000 --> 0:56:18.880 figure of interest, and sometimes you actually see physical, like 0:56:19.040 --> 0:56:23.120 new physical manifestations of him. There's a really cool Ketzo 0:56:23.200 --> 0:56:27.040 Quaddle statue in San Jose, California, for instance. I have 0:56:27.120 --> 0:56:29.360 not seen it in person yet, but I was reading 0:56:29.400 --> 0:56:32.920 about it on Atlice Obscura and it points out that 0:56:33.000 --> 0:56:37.120 it's downtown, it's very Aztecan style, and it was controversial 0:56:37.320 --> 0:56:39.680 back in the nineties as it cost about half a 0:56:39.719 --> 0:56:43.200 million dollars. And also some Christian fundamentalists claimed that this 0:56:43.480 --> 0:56:46.759 was this was gonna be a place of where you know, 0:56:46.800 --> 0:56:49.680 people were gonna worship a bloodthirsty god. Oh yeah. They 0:56:49.719 --> 0:56:52.120 were saying that they were going to be human sacrifices. 0:56:52.280 --> 0:56:55.840 The statue, which, of course, based on everything we've discussed 0:56:56.600 --> 0:56:58.719 regarding this god, that was not going to be the case, 0:56:59.600 --> 0:57:02.440 or if it us, it would have been very misinformed 0:57:02.840 --> 0:57:06.600 cultist showing up there. Meanwhile, other critics just argued that 0:57:06.640 --> 0:57:09.319 it was a religious sculpture on public grounds and then 0:57:09.360 --> 0:57:12.799 shouldn't be allowed. But then there's the criticism that they 0:57:12.880 --> 0:57:17.320 say that the sculpture kind of looks like coiled dog poop. Well, 0:57:17.440 --> 0:57:20.640 I guess coiled serpents sometimes do. Yeah. Well, it's pointed 0:57:20.680 --> 0:57:23.480 out on Atlas Obscura, and there is no author attributed 0:57:23.520 --> 0:57:27.640 on this particular article. The positioning here isn't crazy, especially 0:57:27.720 --> 0:57:31.120 when you look at some of the architectural motifs of 0:57:31.200 --> 0:57:34.800 say the Aztecs of Quetzo, kadal Uh and Uh. It 0:57:34.880 --> 0:57:38.640 also matches up with this description that of the God 0:57:38.760 --> 0:57:41.960 that D. H. Lawrence made in his ninety six novel 0:57:42.240 --> 0:57:46.720 The Plume Serpent, where he describes quote, snakes coiled like excrements, 0:57:46.760 --> 0:57:51.200 snakes feigned and feathered beyond all dreams of dread. I 0:57:51.240 --> 0:57:55.320 have not ventured into that D. H. Lawrence book. Lawrence's novel, 0:57:55.360 --> 0:57:58.360 by the way, concerns the Mexican Revolution and a cult 0:57:58.400 --> 0:58:01.120 attempting to revive the older legion of Mexico, and he 0:58:01.160 --> 0:58:05.040 apparently wanted to title the book Quetzo Quaddle, but his 0:58:05.160 --> 0:58:09.280 publishers disagreed. I can see why, like nobody's going to 0:58:09.360 --> 0:58:12.400 be able to pronounce that. Well, it's probably one of 0:58:12.440 --> 0:58:14.760 the reasons. Probably Larry Cohen's film was called Q or 0:58:14.840 --> 0:58:18.400 Q The Wing Serpent, Right. Yeah. One other point of 0:58:18.440 --> 0:58:21.120 possible interest, I haven't wait, wait a minute, do you 0:58:21.240 --> 0:58:24.480 think that Larry Cohen's movie was in any way based 0:58:24.560 --> 0:58:28.280 on the D. H. Lawrence novel. I have not read 0:58:28.320 --> 0:58:32.280 anything to suggest that it was, um and I would 0:58:32.320 --> 0:58:34.120 say that no, it's probably not, but in it maybe 0:58:34.320 --> 0:58:36.320 maybe so in a very Larry Cohen kind of way, 0:58:37.600 --> 0:58:40.520 like you picked up on like cultists bringing back an 0:58:40.520 --> 0:58:42.640 old religion. Let's get a giant monster in there, and 0:58:42.680 --> 0:58:45.480 you've got a movie. On another literary note, I'm very 0:58:45.520 --> 0:58:47.320 interested to check out. I haven't read these yet, but 0:58:47.760 --> 0:58:51.520 the author Alliotte de Bodard wrote the Obsidian and Blood Trilogy, 0:58:51.840 --> 0:58:54.120 a trilogy of books that I've seen described as a 0:58:54.440 --> 0:58:58.479 like pre Columbian as tech noir. Oh that sounds cool. Yeah, 0:58:58.720 --> 0:59:00.920 So I'm I'm interested in that out and again I 0:59:01.040 --> 0:59:05.440 wanna say that an I is book that a reference 0:59:05.440 --> 0:59:07.760 at the top of the podcast is an excellently read, 0:59:07.880 --> 0:59:11.400 is an excellent read and readily available in like you know, 0:59:11.560 --> 0:59:15.560 kindle and physical format however you like to read your books. Awesome. 0:59:15.600 --> 0:59:17.360 I think I'll be checking that one out all right. 0:59:17.440 --> 0:59:21.040 So there you have it. We've gone from B movie 0:59:21.120 --> 0:59:27.480 monsters to uh meso American gods, two prehistoric creatures, uh 0:59:27.880 --> 0:59:31.200 flying snakes. What more could you ask for? Well, you 0:59:31.240 --> 0:59:34.600 could ask for more monster science content, which we will 0:59:34.640 --> 0:59:36.240 be bringing to you for the rest of the month. 0:59:36.560 --> 0:59:38.880 That's right, you can check out all these episodes stuff 0:59:38.880 --> 0:59:40.520 to blow your mind. Dot com that's the mother ship. 0:59:40.560 --> 0:59:43.120 That's where we find all the podcast episodes. That's where 0:59:43.120 --> 0:59:45.400 you'll find links out to our various social media accounts. 0:59:45.640 --> 0:59:47.520 That's where you will find a tab at the top 0:59:47.560 --> 0:59:50.040 of the page that has our store. On a click, 0:59:50.080 --> 0:59:52.240 go to the store, buy some merchandise with our logo. 0:59:52.760 --> 0:59:54.480 It's a great way to support the show. 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