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Speaker 1: It's the big tape from Bloomberg News and iHeart Radio.

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Speaker 1: I'm most Quasova today. The men who helped Carlos Gone

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Speaker 1: escape from Japan are looking to get paid. You might

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Speaker 1: remember just before New Year's in Carlos Gown, the high

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Speaker 1: flying auto executive, vanished from Japan, just as he was

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Speaker 1: facing charges of financial crime. It was the arrest that

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Speaker 1: shocked the financial world. Automotive tightened. Carlos Gone was put

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Speaker 1: on trial in Japan for alleged financial misconduct and misuse

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Speaker 1: of corporate resources, allegations that he denied. Soon after, Going

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Speaker 1: turned up in Beirut Lebaner, and he's remained there ever since,

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Speaker 1: living in luxury and beyond the reach of Japanese authorities.

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Speaker 1: The story didn't end quite as well for the two

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Speaker 1: Americans who orchestrated and helped carry out Gowns escape. The

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Speaker 1: father and son team faced prosecution and prison. They say

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Speaker 1: Going told them he would help them out if things

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Speaker 1: went wrong, and now they want him to make good

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Speaker 1: on that promise and pay millions of dollars they owe

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Speaker 1: in legal bills. My colleagues Brian Bremner in London and

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Speaker 1: read Stevenson and Soul had been following every twist and

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Speaker 1: turn of this saga, and they join me now, Brian

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Speaker 1: Bremner read Stevenson, thanks so much for being here. Delighted

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Speaker 1: to be here, was going to be here. Brian. Maybe

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Speaker 1: we should just start with you. Uh, you have been

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Speaker 1: on the story from the very beginning. Can you tell

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Speaker 1: us about Carlos Gone. Carlos Gone is the Davos man,

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Speaker 1: you know, the most interesting man in the world in

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Speaker 1: a lot of senses. He's had a fascinating upbringing. He

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Speaker 1: was born in Brazil, spent part of his childhood in Lebanon,

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Speaker 1: was educated at the higher level in France. Speaks multiple languages,

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Speaker 1: and early in his career became kind of known as

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Speaker 1: being a ruthless cost cutter. He ran Michelin's North American operation.

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Speaker 1: He was instrumental when Renault was privatized and just a

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Speaker 1: hot mess and turning that around, and then became something

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Speaker 1: of a global figure when Renault dispatched him to Japan

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Speaker 1: right around the turn of the millennium and or so

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Speaker 1: and was given the task of turning around Nissan. Now,

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Speaker 1: back then, Nissan was a national champion in a world

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Speaker 1: of hurt. Everything about the company was kind of going wrong,

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Speaker 1: and he came in and just started throwing grenades around.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he smashed the jab Panese seniority system to smitherings.

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Speaker 1: He started closing plants, he started up ending supply lines,

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Speaker 1: he started doing everything that Japanese executives never did. And

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Speaker 1: the whole Kretzu system, the convoy system, where you never made,

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Speaker 1: you know, much of a ripple. He just started tearing

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Speaker 1: everything apart and it worked. Nissan kind of came back

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Speaker 1: from the dead, and he became a cultural figure of

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Speaker 1: phenomenon in Japan. I mean there were manga Japanese comic

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Speaker 1: books that were portraying him as the savior of Japanese businesses.

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Speaker 1: I spent about two months trailing him back in those

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Speaker 1: days for a cover story of Business Week and kind

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Speaker 1: of saw him interact with staff, and he would go

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Speaker 1: into a factory and it was like a rock star,

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Speaker 1: you know, entering in arena. I mean people went crazy.

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Speaker 1: So everything was kind of going his way. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, this was an interesting point in Japanese business

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Speaker 1: history because Corporate Japan was starting to experiment with bringing

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Speaker 1: in foreign executives to change things. So as the two

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Speaker 1: thousands moved into twenty tens. You know, he was starting

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Speaker 1: to build a really interesting car alliance between obviously Renault

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Speaker 1: and Nissan, and and then Mitsubishi Motors was added to

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Speaker 1: the mix later on. Then things started to get complicated. Initially,

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Speaker 1: Renault was a stronger partner, right, they came in and

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Speaker 1: they turned everything around. But over time Nissan started to

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Speaker 1: become stronger, and the whole equity arrangement was very unfair

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Speaker 1: from the Japanese perspective, right, So that's when the trouble

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Speaker 1: started for Going. There was kind of like a a

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Speaker 1: group of Nissan executives who didn't like the direction that

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Speaker 1: Carlos Gone was, you know, taking the alliance and wanted

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Speaker 1: to rectify what they thought was a very unfair system,

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Speaker 1: and that kind of led to the trouble, the legal

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Speaker 1: trouble the Carlos Going ended up getting into reed Brian said,

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Speaker 1: things started to take a turn. What exactly was Going

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Speaker 1: doing at that time that led him down a completely

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Speaker 1: different path. So it was right around twenty sixteen when

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Speaker 1: the French government went to Going and basically asked him

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Speaker 1: to make the alliance irreversible. Renault owned Fort of Nissan,

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Speaker 1: a Nissan owned fiftcent of Renauld but didn't have voting rights,

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Speaker 1: and so therefore, even though Nissan was sending dividends to

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Speaker 1: Renault and was turning out more cars every year than

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Speaker 1: the French car company, it had very little saying how

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Speaker 1: Renault was run, whereas Renault had an awful lot to

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Speaker 1: say in how Nissan was run through its shareholding and

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Speaker 1: through the fact that Going was also the CEO of

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Speaker 1: Renault at the time, and on top of that, Renault

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Speaker 1: was partly owned by the French government. But going back

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Speaker 1: to when the French government asked Going to make the

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Speaker 1: alliance irreversible, it meant, you know, cement the relationship right,

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Speaker 1: make it long term. Now, people within Nissan saw this

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Speaker 1: as a merger play, so they thought that the companies

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Speaker 1: would be irreversibly combined. What we learned afterwards was that

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Speaker 1: Going was essentially trying to set up a holding company structure,

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Speaker 1: so to create sort of a super car company under

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Speaker 1: a single holding company, which would actually return some independence

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Speaker 1: to Nissan. It was an early eighteen when a small

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Speaker 1: group of executives within Nissan got alarmed over this, and

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Speaker 1: around the same time, basically an auditor within Nissan started

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Speaker 1: to question some of the financial dealings that Going had.

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Speaker 1: It actually had to do with plane tickets for his family,

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Speaker 1: and as they dug d Peper, they started to wonder

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Speaker 1: whether there was any wrongdoing going on here, and they

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Speaker 1: hadn't uncovered a whole lot, but one of the things

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Speaker 1: that they did was they ended up getting in contact

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Speaker 1: with prosecutors from the Tokyo District Court, and the prosecutors

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Speaker 1: saw a bit of an opportunity here. They saw that

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Speaker 1: potentially they had a big sort of target that they

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Speaker 1: could go after when November rolled around. Basically there was

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Speaker 1: a plan in place Going would be flown to Tokyo,

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Speaker 1: and we learned later on as the case developed that

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Speaker 1: essentially these charges were used to access even more information

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Speaker 1: that was held by Going, for example at one of

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Speaker 1: his offices in Beirut, the apartment that he had in Brazil.

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Speaker 1: And so in early you saw a new set of charges,

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Speaker 1: more serious levy to It's gone Brian. So Japanese authorities

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Speaker 1: are moving in on Going, and he starts thinking about

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Speaker 1: what his next move should be. That's right, He's now

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Speaker 1: part of h He's a participant in the Japanese legal system.

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Speaker 1: And for people who aren't familiar with it. It's not

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Speaker 1: club met. It is a really tough situation that goinges in.

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Speaker 1: He's facing round the clock interrogations, long periods of incarceration

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Speaker 1: where he can barely even talk to you know, his wife,

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Speaker 1: let alone his lawyers, a lot of pressure techniques from

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Speaker 1: Japanese prosecutors trying to get him to plead guilty. I mean,

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Speaker 1: once you enter the Japanese legal system at this point

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Speaker 1: there is something like a nine nine point nine percent

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Speaker 1: conviction rate. I mean, it's really game over when it's

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Speaker 1: kind of reached this point. So the guy is desperate.

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Speaker 1: Gones options are nil, right, He's in a really tough spot,

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Speaker 1: and behind the scenes, the outlines of a plot to

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Speaker 1: get Going out of Japan start to take hold. This

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Speaker 1: story continues when we come back when this plan is

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Speaker 1: being formulated to get Going out of the country, he

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Speaker 1: wasn't aware of it. So around the middle of you know,

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Speaker 1: going can't see his wife Carol, because essentially she has

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Speaker 1: left the country. He's not allowed to contact her except

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Speaker 1: for on you know, special occasions. Any internet access he

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Speaker 1: has has to be done at his lawyer's office. So

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Speaker 1: his ability to even sort of coordinate any sort of

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Speaker 1: plan to get out of Japan is somewhat limited, but

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Speaker 1: he does make contact with people who can help him

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Speaker 1: over the course of probably half a year, be a

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Speaker 1: little bit less. He's being told, you know, get ready,

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Speaker 1: get fit, you know, make your preparations, don't tell anybody.

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Speaker 1: And indeed it was only a tiny number of people

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Speaker 1: who even knew this discussion was taking place. Brian. So

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Speaker 1: here's Carlo's going appearing in this splashy photo in Beyroute.

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Speaker 1: He had gotten out. How did he get out of Japan?

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Speaker 1: The man was being observed twenty four hours a day. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's an amazing story almost you know, James

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Speaker 1: Bond like in a lot of respects because he was

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Speaker 1: under for a bit of surveillance at this point in time.

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Speaker 1: But he did manage to get on the shin cons

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Speaker 1: and the bullet train and get down to Osaka and

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Speaker 1: Kansai International Airport. I think they stayed at a hotel

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Speaker 1: to get their plans together. Um. I think the genius

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Speaker 1: of this plot was to take advantage of relatively lack

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Speaker 1: security at the private jet hangars at Kansai International Airport.

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Speaker 1: Once they got to Osaka, the next step was how

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Speaker 1: did they get going onto a private jet that they arranged.

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Speaker 1: And what they did is say they took an empty

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Speaker 1: audio equipment box and he actually just was in, you know,

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Speaker 1: went into it. He was smuggled through the There's like

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Speaker 1: a big case that you would use like a concert

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Speaker 1: tour would use to put all kinds of you know,

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Speaker 1: speakers and audio gears. It was big enough to fit

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Speaker 1: a man, right, it was big enough to conceal a

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Speaker 1: guy the size of of going. And he got through

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Speaker 1: the security at the hangar and they were able to

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Speaker 1: get the box onto a private jet that was you know,

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Speaker 1: heading out to Istanbul. So from Istanbul they were able

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Speaker 1: to get him onto another private jet that went to Beirut. Lebanon,

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Speaker 1: the place of his childhood, of his ancestors is spiritual home,

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Speaker 1: so to speak. But more importantly, Lebanon doesn't have an

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Speaker 1: extradition and treaty with Japan, so there was no way

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Speaker 1: Japanese law enforcement or international law enforcement at that point

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Speaker 1: we're going to be able to get their hands on go.

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Speaker 1: And since then he's just set up his life in Beirute.

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Speaker 1: He can't go anywhere else. But he seems to be

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Speaker 1: living pretty well. Yes, And you know, he started to

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Speaker 1: have the semblance of a normal life again. You know,

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Speaker 1: he was able to hike and swim and spend time

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Speaker 1: with his family. Read you've now written a story about

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Speaker 1: the two men who were responsible for smuggling Carlos Gone

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Speaker 1: out of Japan and getting him to Bay Route. Who

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Speaker 1: are they and how did they do this? So right

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Speaker 1: after going sets foot in by Route, the names of

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Speaker 1: the people who actually helped him escape start to emerge,

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Speaker 1: and it's Michael Taylor and his son, Peter Taylor. So

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Speaker 1: Michael Taylor as an American who first set foot in

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Speaker 1: Beirut in three as a US Army Special Forces green

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Speaker 1: beret and really sort of intertwined himself with the country.

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Speaker 1: He learned how to speak Arabic, He married a Lebanese woman,

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Speaker 1: had three sons with her, and trained Lebanese militia. And

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Speaker 1: then after he left the U. S Army, he ended

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Speaker 1: up becoming a sort of a security contractor. Peter Taylor

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Speaker 1: had sort of helped his father in sort of liaising

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Speaker 1: with going. Michael Taylor had done these sorts of extractions

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Speaker 1: before he had gone, and retrieved children abducted by an

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Speaker 1: estranged parent, and these sorts of things, and so their

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Speaker 1: names are coming out much more frequently, their role in

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Speaker 1: the escape, their background, and it's attracting a lot of attention.

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Speaker 1: Now with going having slipped out of their hands, the

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Speaker 1: governor wants some sort of retribution, and so what they

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Speaker 1: do is very swiftly issue a restaurant warrants for the Tailors,

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Speaker 1: and so then for them, the question becomes whether they

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Speaker 1: evade the risk of being arrested if they go back

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Speaker 1: to the US or not. Lawyers advised them that they

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Speaker 1: probably shouldn't go, but also told them that the risk

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Speaker 1: of being extradited back to Japan were relatively low, and

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Speaker 1: so they do indeed go back to the US and

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Speaker 1: in May of at this point, US Marshalls swoop in

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Speaker 1: on their home in Massachusetts and arrest them and formal

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Speaker 1: extradition proceedings start to take place, and so they are

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Speaker 1: extradited to Japan. And what happens next, so after the extradition,

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Speaker 1: their strategy changes. They're no longer trying to fight the charges.

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Speaker 1: They're trying to plead guilty and get the best possible

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Speaker 1: deal that they can. And that's exactly what happened in court,

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Speaker 1: and Michael Taylor was actually a little bit emotional and

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Speaker 1: very contrite for the judges in Japan, and he said, yes,

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Speaker 1: we did it, we regret it. Then they were sentenced.

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Speaker 1: Life in Japanese prison is not easy, particularly for perhaps

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Speaker 1: a foreigner, and Michael and Peter had kind of a

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Speaker 1: rough time. I mean Michael in particular had long stretches

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Speaker 1: of solitary confinement. His father passed away during his incarceration.

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Speaker 1: He wasn't able to really talk to him toward the end.

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Speaker 1: Eventually they were shipped back to the US. So they

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Speaker 1: actually spent about sixteen months behind bars in Japan and

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Speaker 1: then we're eventually, you know, let go out of the

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Speaker 1: US prison system where things go from here when we return.

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Speaker 1: So the Tailor's had paid their debt in Japanese prison.

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Speaker 1: They come back to the US. But all is not

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Speaker 1: well with Taylor's indeed, I mean they get back to

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Speaker 1: the US, you know, they've been fairly kind of guarred

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Speaker 1: by the experience there. You know, they've got lives to rebuild.

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Speaker 1: Peter Taylor, still in his twenties. He and his father

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Speaker 1: are looking at, you know, a lot of bills to pay.

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Speaker 1: So by their telling, the actual extraction had cost about

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Speaker 1: one point three million dollars. I would say about a

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Speaker 1: two thirds of that was already paid by Gone, but

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Speaker 1: they do say that there were some other out of

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Speaker 1: pocket costs that weren't fully sort of repaid. But on

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Speaker 1: top of that, the tailor's together had spent about three

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Speaker 1: million dollars fighting the extradition uh in legal fees as

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Speaker 1: well as lobbying efforts. And what is the relationship with Go? Now?

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Speaker 1: How do they feel about Going? They're saddled with all

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Speaker 1: this dead Going is living in the lapp of luxury

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Speaker 1: and Beirut. I would describe the relationship between the tailors

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Speaker 1: and Going as complicated, right, because on one hand, they

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Speaker 1: do have a certain amount of sympathy for him because

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Speaker 1: they essentially went through the same Japanese sort of punishment

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Speaker 1: system that Going did, and so they do sympathize with

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Speaker 1: him and his situation. But on the other hand, they

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Speaker 1: paid a very high cost for his freedom, and so

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Speaker 1: they want to at least be made whole as they

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Speaker 1: kind of came out of the system. One of their

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Speaker 1: lawyers even made his way to Beirut to try and

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Speaker 1: you know, sort things out, but met a bit of

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Speaker 1: resistance or just couldn't really get the conversation going, and

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Speaker 1: so you know, we're now seeing this kind of limbo

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Speaker 1: situation where it's kind of a delicate dance, right. You know,

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Speaker 1: they've gone public with the information and that they do

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Speaker 1: want to be made whole by Carlos Gone. He himself

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Speaker 1: has been sort of very careful then measured in his

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Speaker 1: response when I was able to put the question to him,

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Speaker 1: and to a certain extent, you know, the story is

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Speaker 1: not quite finished because we just don't know how it's

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Speaker 1: going to turn out. Did the tailors have an arrangement

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Speaker 1: with Going that he would he all of this money

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Speaker 1: and help them out if something went bad? Well, I

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Speaker 1: mean during the formulation of the plot, in the execution

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Speaker 1: of the plot, there wasn't like a lot of detailed

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Speaker 1: discussions about the financial arrangements, but they seemed to, at

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Speaker 1: least from the tailor's point of view, had a kind

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Speaker 1: of a rough kind of understanding that if things went

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Speaker 1: really bad, if they went pear shaped, if the Tailors

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Speaker 1: were caught ended up going through you know, legal proceedings,

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Speaker 1: that Carlos would make them whole. I mean, there was

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Speaker 1: an anecdote in our story during the actual flight out

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Speaker 1: of Japan, when Michael Taylor said, Hey, I freed you.

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Speaker 1: Are you gonna look after us? And Carlos Scones said yes.

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Speaker 1: Of course, over time, the understanding on each side may

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Speaker 1: have changed a bed During the period after they got

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Speaker 1: out of jail. I think they felt that they hadn't

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Speaker 1: heard from Going for a bit of Peter Taylor told

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Speaker 1: us at one point that he felt like Going had

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Speaker 1: never said thank you. A lawyer who had represented the

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Speaker 1: Tailor's had gone to Beirut, presumably to start talking about

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Speaker 1: financial matters, and Going canceled the meeting at the last second. Bryant,

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Speaker 1: one interesting thing in the story is that the Tailor's

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Speaker 1: really seemed to see themselves as victims in all this,

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Speaker 1: that they have been done wrong. And one question I

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Speaker 1: just had was they smuggled a guy out of Japan

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Speaker 1: in a box to evade prosecution. Do they not know

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Speaker 1: that that was going to bring them some sort of trouble. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think in Michael Taylor's world, the moral line is

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Speaker 1: a bit fuzzy. I mean, I think Michael was motivated

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Speaker 1: by a sense of outrage that Carlos Gone was being

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Speaker 1: treated unfairly by the system. I mean, there were family,

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Speaker 1: mutual ties to Lebanon. That probably made Carlos Gone a

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Speaker 1: bit of a sympathetic figure. But when you talk to

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Speaker 1: both tailors today, they have no regrets about doing this,

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Speaker 1: and you know, in their ethical universe, this is completely

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Speaker 1: legitimate thing to do. Going meanwhile, has denied the charges

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Speaker 1: against him. Here he is in an interview with Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: last year describing his situation in Lebanon. My question to you, though,

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Speaker 1: is will you physically go to France to face these charges?

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Speaker 1: But I cannot what you you seem to say. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm sitting in Dibanon. I can fly, I have no passport.

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Speaker 1: I am for didn't stop you from leaving Japan to

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Speaker 1: leave to leave Lebanon. You know, people ask me the

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Speaker 1: question if like I'm you know, sitting down in the

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Speaker 1: place where I'm free to move. Let's not forget that

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Speaker 1: there is a red knutice which has been asked by Japan,

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Speaker 1: which practically positioned me in Lebanon. Until this red knutice

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Speaker 1: is moved up, and unless it is removed, I cannot

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Speaker 1: move from Lebanon. I'm under the Lebanese justice system and

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Speaker 1: under the Lebanese jurisdiction. But and we just do acknowledge

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Speaker 1: that read you went to be rude and actually met

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Speaker 1: with Carlos Gone. What's he like now? He's living what

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Speaker 1: I would sort of describe as a life of semi retirement.

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Speaker 1: As we've discussed. You know, he does have deep roots there.

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Speaker 1: He owns a winery in Beirut, hulans and businesses. When

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Speaker 1: I met with him and we actually sat down to

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Speaker 1: talk in the restaurant of the hotels that's with a

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Speaker 1: walking distance of his house, we would be interrupted every

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Speaker 1: you know, four or five minutes by somebody who wanted

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Speaker 1: to stop and say hello and pay her respects to

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Speaker 1: go and and you know, he was sort of in

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Speaker 1: his element there. So he did get his freedom. But

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Speaker 1: on the other hand, he's better. He was toppled from

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Speaker 1: the heights of corporate power and has to live this life.

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Speaker 1: And in Lebanon, there's an arrest warrant out by both

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Speaker 1: the French and Japanese governments now essentially kind of trapped

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Speaker 1: him in the country. Obviously, First, I don't consider myself

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Speaker 1: as a prisoner in Lebanon. I'm very happy to be here,

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Speaker 1: I can tell you, and I prefer this prison to

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Speaker 1: the one where I was before you can imagine, and

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Speaker 1: particularly here, I'm with my friends, with my family. My

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Speaker 1: kids can come visit me. I can use the phone,

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Speaker 1: I can use internet. I don't have followers. Frankly, I

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Speaker 1: don't feel at all unhappy in Lebanon. Um ready to

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Speaker 1: stay a long time. He liveing on. But please do

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Speaker 1: not consider that I'm just accepted this as it is.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna fight because I have to clear my name,

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Speaker 1: and this is something which is extremely important to me.

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Speaker 1: I can't accept the fact that fabricating the stories and

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Speaker 1: lying about something at such a scale can win or

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Speaker 1: can prell. I can't accept him. So that's Carlos Gone

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Speaker 1: and the tailors, but going left behind quite a trail

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Speaker 1: of wreckage at his old company. What's happened since and

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Speaker 1: where did they go from here? Carlos Gone spent a

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Speaker 1: big part of his career building this massive alliance kind

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Speaker 1: of anchored by Renault and and Nissan. One of the

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Speaker 1: big ironies of this entire story is that it's all

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Speaker 1: been kind of crumbling since then. Like any other auto company,

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Speaker 1: they're facing all the disruptive forces of the E V

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Speaker 1: Revolution and things like that. But it's also true. I

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Speaker 1: think that Nissan in particular took kind of a reputational

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Speaker 1: hit from this whole saga, and they're now trying to

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Speaker 1: renegotiate the terms of the alliance, and it's not clear

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Speaker 1: how this is all going to turn out for Ghon's

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Speaker 1: biggest accomplishment. Read Stevenson, Brian Bremner. Thanks so much for

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Speaker 1: talking to me today. My pleasure, Pleasure, This is great.

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Speaker 1: You can read more about Carlos going from Read Stevenson

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Speaker 1: and Brian Bremner at Bloomberg dot com. Thanks for listening

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Speaker 1: to us here at The Big Take, the daily podcast

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Speaker 1: from Bloomberg and I Heart Radio. For more shows from

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Speaker 1: my Heart Radio, visit the heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen. Read today's story and subscribe to

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Speaker 1: our daily newsletter at Bloomberg dot com slash Big Take,

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Speaker 1: and we'd love to hear from you. Email us with

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Speaker 1: questions or comments to Big Take at Bloomberg dot net.

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Speaker 1: The supervising producer of The Big Take is Vicky Bergelina.

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Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Katherine Fink. Our producer is an

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Speaker 1: associate producer. Is is our engineer. Original music by Leo Sidrin.

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Speaker 1: I'm west Caasova We'll be back tomorrow with another big take.

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Speaker 1: H