WEBVTT - Hillary Clinton Changes on Her Own Terms, an episode of A Slight Change of Plans 0:00:02.160 --> 0:00:05.800 It is a constant balancing act. It's everything from how 0:00:05.840 --> 0:00:08.879 you dress and you know what your hairstyle is, to 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:12.360 how loudly you speak or how loudly you laugh, or 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:15.560 you know who you are seen with or I mean, 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:20.560 it's just a constant judgment. Hillary Rodham Clinton's had a 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:24.239 complicated relationship with the public. It started in the nineteen 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:27.160 seventies when she challenged the cookie cutter role laid out 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:30.080 for her as first Lady of Arkansas. It's all occurs 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:31.960 to me that you don't really don't fit the image 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:34.559 that we have created or the governor's wife in Arkansas. 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:38.880 You're not a native. Um, you've been educated in liberal 0:00:38.880 --> 0:00:41.840 Eastern universities. If you're less than for it, you don't 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:44.400 have any children, you don't use your husband's name, you 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:49.160 practice law. Does it concern you that maybe other people 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:52.360 feel that you don't fit the image that we have 0:00:52.440 --> 0:00:57.120 created for the governor's wife in Arkansas. No, Um, that 0:00:57.200 --> 0:01:00.640 doesn't bother me. Um, And I hope that doesn't bother 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:05.840 very many people. But it did bother many people. Hillary 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:10.640 being Hillary made people uncomfortable, and so one by one, 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:14.880 her critics started asking her to change herself. Despite all 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:20.000 her extraordinary accomplishments, including senator, secretary of state, first woman 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:22.839 to be nominated for president by a major political party, 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:25.120 and I mean she even won the popular vote in 0:01:25.120 --> 0:01:29.560 the election. Despite all of that, people kept at it. 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:33.440 They wanted Hillary to be different, for her to change, 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:36.760 and she was willing to change, just never in the 0:01:36.760 --> 0:01:46.399 way that people had hoped. Our constilled Chillian ore Con. 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:54.520 I'm Maya Shanker, and this is a slight change of plans, 0:01:55.040 --> 0:01:57.440 a show that died deep into the world of change 0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:00.400 and hopefully gets us to think differently about change in 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:05.280 our own lives. Hi, how are you. Hi? It's great 0:02:05.320 --> 0:02:07.960 to meet you, Secretary Clinton. I just wanted to welcome 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:11.760 you formally to my closet. UM. I always dreamed it 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:13.160 would be this way, you know, the first time I 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:17.240 met Hillary Clinton would be from my makeshift recording studio 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:20.280 with clothes everywhere. But I guess this is the world 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:22.440 we live in right now. It is the world we 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:26.320 live in. I have been um privy to many closets 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:28.640 over the last year because as I've been doing my 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:32.919 podcast and talking with friends on Zoom and everything, people 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:37.480 are in closets there in corners of their bedroom there 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:40.400 in kitchens. I mean, it's just been quite a tour 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:44.120 of everybody's living space exactly. You get, you get an 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:47.920 intimate glimpse into people's lives exactly. So I'm just gonna 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:49.880 jump in. Do you mind if I call you Hillary? 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:54.000 Not at all, Not at all. Uh. So I love 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:56.880 to rewind the clock to your twenties, um, and we 0:02:56.880 --> 0:02:59.600 can take the little time machine back in time. Um. 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:02.639 So you're a lawyer in d C. You've just wrapped 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:05.880 up your work on the Nixon impeachment hearings, and then 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:08.680 love gets in the way and you end up moving 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:14.040 to Arkansas, and um Bill becomes governor and you are 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:18.360 not the typical first lady. Uh. And that's met with 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:21.240 some resistance, right. Do you mind sharing what it was 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:25.200 that people were taking issue with? Well, I think that 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:30.720 back in what would have been the nineteen seventies, it 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:34.360 was still, you know, somewhat unusual to have graduated from 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:38.720 law school to be teaching law or practicing law. I 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:44.720 did both, uh And I really saw that, but I 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:48.720 didn't think it would impede me in any way. And 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:52.520 then when I married Bill in nineteen seventy five, you know, 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:55.000 I determined that I would keep my own name, which 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:57.440 seemed to me to make a lot of sense, because 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:01.160 that's what I had written under a uh at law school, 0:04:01.440 --> 0:04:06.760 that's what I had practice law undertaught, et cetera. And 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:12.640 I think it was um really at the point that 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:18.039 our daughter was born in uh uh February of nineteen 0:04:18.160 --> 0:04:22.720 eighty and Bill was having to run for reelection because 0:04:23.120 --> 0:04:26.479 there were only two year terms for governors back then, 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:32.760 and the front page announcement was Governor Bill Clinton and 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:37.520 Hillary Rodham, you know, announced the birth of their daughter, Chelsea. 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:43.160 It was probably that moment that really pierced people's public 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:46.360 consciousness that oh my gosh, she has a different name. 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:49.920 And then that became a really big issue. And so 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:53.840 when Bill lost for re election in night in the 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:59.720 Reagan Landslide, among the top reasons people said that they 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:03.440 didn't vote for him was because I didn't take his 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:06.560 last name or change my name, as they would say. 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:12.720 And it was a truly um surprising revelation to me 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:15.839 that that would matter so much to people. But now, 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:19.200 frankly wouldn't make that big a difference to anybody, but 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:23.760 it was significant, and I had so many people come 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:26.640 to me and say, you really have to take your 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:30.839 husband's last name. You're really stopping him from being able 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:33.919 to run again and be governor again. And there's a 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:37.279 lot at stake with him being governor. And the one 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:39.440 person never asked me to do that was my husband. 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:43.880 He thought it was pretty ridiculous also, But I concluded 0:05:44.120 --> 0:05:48.920 that it was, you know, for me, um, something that 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:52.800 I was willing to do. And I made an announcement 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:58.200 that I would be Hillary Rodham Clinton. And obviously it 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:04.560 went against what I thought was my decision, but I 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:07.400 balanced all of the pros and cons and decided that 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:11.400 on balance, it was the right thing for me to do. Yeah. 0:06:11.440 --> 0:06:14.320 I think a lot of people, women, especially face the 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:17.440 same kind of tension, which is knowing when it makes 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:20.520 sense to compromise. Right, Do I do I take a 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:23.440 principal stance at every turn, but then risk getting kicked 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:25.919 out of the arena altogether and then lose my ability 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:29.400 to have impact. Or do I try to more thoughtfully 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:32.240 pick my battles and stay in the arena and just 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:36.200 play the longer game. Well, that's exactly right. I was 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:39.640 not going to stop practicing law. I was not going 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:43.600 to stop being outspoken about a lot of issues that 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:47.440 really mattered to me. And when Bill was reelected in 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:53.720 two um, I dove back in uh and share the 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:58.360 task force to reform education in the state. And it 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:02.520 was I'm sure easier for some people to hear the 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:07.120 changes I was advocating for because I was all of 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:12.000 a sudden truly understood to be the governor's wife. So 0:07:12.520 --> 0:07:16.040 it is a constant balancing act. And I'm sure that's 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:17.920 true for all people, but I think you're right to 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:23.600 say that as women, we make those decisions constantly. Uh. 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:26.840 And it's everything from how you dress and you know 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:30.040 what your hairstyle is too, how loudly you speak, or 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:33.600 how loudly you laugh, or you know who you are 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:37.520 seen with or I mean, it's just a constant judgment 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:43.680 both internally you're judging yourself, but most uh importantly how 0:07:43.720 --> 0:07:46.960 you're being judged, because there continues to be a rather 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:52.520 active double standard. Yeah. There's some really telling footage from 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:54.920 back in the day where you're getting interviewed about your 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:58.080 role as first Lady, and underneath your face it says 0:07:58.200 --> 0:08:02.040 Hillary Raddon and the underneath that in parentheses it says 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:05.760 Mrs Bill Clinton. I mean, I just laughed out loud. Right, 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:08.880 But I'm part of a different generation where it just 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:12.160 seems like, of course, I'm going to keep my last name. 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:14.960 But I recognized that at the time that was a 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:18.680 truly bold, uh feminist statement. UM. So I want to 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:20.720 dig into that a little bit more, which is when 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:24.800 you did first marry Bill Um, what what fueled your 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:29.720 decision to keep your last name. I was just um, 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:33.559 you know, feeling like he was going into politics, uh, 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:36.439 and he would have a very public life at that time. 0:08:36.559 --> 0:08:39.320 I never thought I would personally run for office, but 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:42.760 I thought I would stay as an advocate. Um. I'd 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:45.439 been you know, working for the Children's Offense Fund, I'd 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:48.120 been a lawyer on the impeachment inquiry staff. I'd had 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:54.480 really fascinating important jobs um for me, and I wanted 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:59.880 my professional life to be considered separate from his. And 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:03.200 I'll tell you a funny story. Before I took his 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:08.679 last name, I was um helping on a big lawsuit 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:11.920 in my law firm with one of the senior partners. 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:14.079 And we went to trial. And we went to trial 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:17.880 in this rural county outside of Little Rock, and the 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:25.240 judge was at that time under investigation and the office 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:29.200 investigating him was the Attorney General's office, headed by my husband. 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:33.040 So we were in the courtroom and this was the 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:36.600 kind of judge back in the day who would say 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:39.640 how pretty I looked, and asked me to stand up 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:43.280 and twirl around to show everybody what, you know, pretty 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:46.160 dress I was wearing. On and on. We made our 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:48.320 case and we moved to be dismissed from the case, 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:51.920 and we were successful. So we get back to our 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:54.240 office and the next day the senior partner calls me 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:56.400 in and he said, well, I'm sure glad we got 0:09:56.440 --> 0:10:00.319 dismissed yesterday because on one of the breaks, the judge 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:03.360 was cursing out your husband, talking about how terrible the 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:06.320 Attorney general was to be investigating him. So one of 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:08.920 the other lawyers said, well, you know, your honor, uh, 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:12.120 that young woman that was in the courtroom, that's Bill 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:15.240 Clinton's wife. And the judge said, well, if I'd known that, 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:18.439 I wouldn't have dismissed the case against your client. Now, 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:23.640 that to me encapsulated, you know, the challenge of being 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:28.320 married to a public figure but being very committed to 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:32.240 my own professional career. I mean, I love that Bill 0:10:32.280 --> 0:10:34.720 never asked you to change your name. So when you finally, 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:38.640 when you finally took the plunge, what did he say 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:41.720 to you? Was he kind of like thanks? But yeah, yeah, 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:44.840 he basically said, look, you know, I wish you wouldn't 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:46.840 have to do this. I wish you didn't think you 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:49.160 had to do it. Please don't do it for me. 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:52.480 And you know, he said everything the right thing, but 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:56.440 he also encountered from a lot of you know, his 0:10:56.559 --> 0:11:00.679 male supporters, you know, men who would say, you know, Bill, 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:03.920 I always thought of you as a really you know, 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:07.120 strong guy, and how come you don't make your wife 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:09.200 take you know, take your name. I mean, it was 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:14.160 such a flash point, and it it was, you know, 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:17.599 something that I guess both of us should have predicted. 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:21.840 Now we would be you know, just laughing at it. 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:24.959 But look at what they make big issues out of today. 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:29.760 So I guess we shouldn't be surprised that anything which 0:11:30.400 --> 0:11:36.200 touches a cultural, uh hot point is going to provoke 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:39.760 a reaction. Do you remember the first time you introduced 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:43.439 yourself as Hillary Clinton? Oh? Sure, I would. I did 0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:45.760 a press conference. I mean, you know, I was at 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:50.280 an event and I said, look, I know this means 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:53.439 a lot of a number of people, and I don't 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:59.040 want their concern about you know, my last name to 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:02.760 interfere with doing what's right for the state and making 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:06.319 some tough decisions. So from now on I will be 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:08.880 uh known as Hillary Rodham Clinton. I just did it, 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:11.280 very matter of fact. I didn't make a big deal 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:17.679 out of it, and um, you know I assumed that. Okay, 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:22.120 now you can argue about me about other things. Why 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:25.400 is she still working? Why why is she, you know, 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:28.920 telling people to raise their taxes to pay for teachers? 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:31.280 What is she doing? And then later why is she 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:34.440 fighting for healthcare and the you know when Bill was president? 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:38.000 So fine, if if, if this gets you to focus 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:40.240 on what I actually think it is important, and that 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:43.760 is how we're going to live together, make tough decisions together. Uh, 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:46.640 let's do that. It's interesting. I mean, there was an 0:12:46.640 --> 0:12:49.040 element of a slippery slope which used to change her name. 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:52.000 It's that with positive reception and then all of a sudden, 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:54.200 people are like, oh, yeah, but what about your hair 0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:57.240 and your glasses make up? Think can we get you 0:12:57.240 --> 0:13:02.280 a stylist. I'm curioused to know whether changing any of 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:07.480 these parts of yourself ever affected your self perception. You know, 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:11.920 I never thought any of it affected my um self 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:16.319 perception or my identity, and there were parts that I 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:19.480 ended up enjoying. You know, I finally got around to 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:23.400 forcing myself to our contact lenses, you know, made a 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:26.040 big difference and how I could actually see as well 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:29.520 as be seen. Uh, I had a lot of fun 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:32.200 all of a sudden, you know, thinking well, you know, 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:35.080 I don't have to just wear turtlenecks and and and 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:40.480 baggy vests and and you know skirts and pants or whatever. Um. So, yeah, 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:44.280 they're parts of it that were interesting that you know, 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:49.600 maybe I wouldn't have pursued had I not married Bill, 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:54.800 or had I not ever married anybody. But I didn't 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:59.040 ever feel like it affected my core as to who 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:01.840 I was. I I never and I give my parents 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:09.559 credit for this, maya. I never I never really felt like, uh, 0:14:09.640 --> 0:14:17.120 anybody was damaging me or undermining me or subverting me 0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:21.880 because I just didn't, you know, either respond to that 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:26.240 or didn't frankly allow it. So, you know, maybe it's stubbornness. 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:29.040 Maybe it's just the you know, strength of you know, 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:31.680 two parents who never told me that there wasn't anything 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:34.840 I couldn't do as a woman. Um, and so I 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:39.480 don't feel like any of the sort of small choices 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:43.720 compromises that I made along the way were that significant. 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:49.840 I did feel so strong in my own sense of 0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:55.400 being in purpose. I think that also caused a reaction, 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:58.680 and I think that was hard for people, uh, men 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:03.440 and women to understand. But it's just who I am. Yeah, 0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:08.720 I do wonder whether this is so interesting because it 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:11.720 almost seems like the people of Arkansas wanted you to 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:13.680 suffer a bit more from that name changed, Like it 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:16.920 would have almost felt more satisfying, Um, if it had 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:20.120 been a really challenging thing for you, Like maybe they 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:21.760 were they were hoping you were going to give them 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:26.920 something meaningful to show how much you. I don't know 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:30.360 is how wrong i'd been. How Yeah, it's like the 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:32.880 fact that it was easy in some sense because you're 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:35.960 such a pragmatist right to change your last name, left 0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:38.240 people feeling like, Okay, she changed the last name, but 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:40.760 damn it, but she didn't do enough. Yeah, we were 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:43.800 trying to change her and she's not willing to change. 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:50.560 That's one right, that's really perceptive. Maya, that is exactly right. 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:54.320 And this has been a constant theme through my adult life. 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:59.880 You know, Um, there's something about women stepping into the arena, 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:07.760 particularly being unapologetic about it, being um, willing to stand 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:13.120 up against or call out uh strong groups or interest 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:18.560 groups or forces at work whatever. Uh. That is in 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:25.960 and of itself still somewhat um surprising and even uh 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:32.000 not fully acceptable. Uh. And and so I I really 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:37.120 did experience that, um, and I think I paid a 0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:39.680 price for it. I mean I think that, you know, 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:49.520 being unapologetically outspoken and willing to uh challenge conventional wisdom. 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:53.120 You know, it's discomforting for a lot of people. Yeah, 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:55.320 did I put up with a lot of stuff? Yeah? 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:56.720 Did I put up with a lot of stuff when 0:16:56.760 --> 0:16:58.720 I ran for office? Yeah? Did I put up with 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:04.920 you know, all kind lines of you know, sexism and misogyny. Absolutely, 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:10.560 some I just ignored for you know, all the reasons 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:14.080 that people women of my age ignored that stuff. Uh. 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:17.800 It just wasn't worth the battle. Even in the case 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:20.479 of Arkansas, you made all these superficial changes to your 0:17:20.520 --> 0:17:23.720 look and you changed your last name, but it didn't 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:26.400 it didn't do what people were hoping to do, which 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:28.159 is to break you a little bit, you know, to 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:32.600 like expose some deep vulnerabilities, because what do bullies want. Ultimately, 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:34.600 they want to get a rise out of you. They 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:36.480 want to see you crack a bit. But you know, 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:38.760 it's so interesting. This is so interesting to me because 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:42.840 in the seen campaign, like for example, the famous incident 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:45.679 of the second debate where Trump is looming over me, 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:49.520 leering at me and trying to intimidate me, and I'm 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:52.359 madly going through what are my options here? Do I 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:54.800 turn around and say, back up, you creep? You know 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:58.280 you don't intimidate me? Do I, you know, try to 0:17:58.359 --> 0:18:01.240 laugh it off? What do I do? How do ideal 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:07.919 with what is a clearly uh signaled effort on his 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:12.399 part to his supporters that he's got the little lady 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:16.520 in hand because he's a master manipulator. And it was hard, 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:20.000 and eventually I decided, no, you know, I'm not going 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:22.480 to respond. I'm not going to either laugh it off 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:27.240 or try to, you know, expose it, because I don't 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:29.479 want people to think I can't take it. I mean, 0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:31.119 I'm trying to be president of the United States, for 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:38.760 heaven's sakes. So this is a highly complicated calculation as 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:43.840 a woman, and I probably would guess that women make 0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:47.800 that calculation dozens of times a day. Yeah, you know, 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:51.480 I think that this constant critique that you've gotten over 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:54.160 the course of your whole life is we don't know 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:57.400 the real Hillary Clinton. And I just wonder and having 0:18:57.400 --> 0:19:01.520 this conversation if that's a euphemism for we don't accept 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:05.600 the real Hillary Clinton's that that is exactly She is 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:10.040 not like me, or she's not like the women that 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:13.640 I know, or she's not like what I want a 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:17.440 woman to be. You know, I used to laugh when 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:21.040 uh people in the media would say, oh, you know, 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:24.800 she yells. Have you ever gone to a rally where 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:29.280 any man is running for anything and he doesn't at 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:31.879 some point yell, I mean, good grief, look whoy I 0:19:31.920 --> 0:19:35.760 was running against in and all of the yelling that 0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:39.720 went on. But you know, that's not what we want. 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:44.240 So this is one of the areas that is really 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:48.119 rich for further research and understanding, because how do you 0:19:48.119 --> 0:19:50.680 communicate about that. You know, you don't want to sound 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:52.639 like you're whining, you don't want to sound like you 0:19:52.680 --> 0:19:54.960 can't take it, you don't want to sound like you're 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:59.000 asking for special treatment. But how do you begin to 0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:07.359 unpack that we'll be back in a moment. That the 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:17.240 slight change of plans. When Hillary Clinton moved into the 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:20.840 White House after her husband became president, she again challenged 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:23.560 the cookie cutter role laid out for her, this time 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:27.560 as First Lady of the United States. Instead of sticking 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:30.960 to her ceremonial duties, Hillary was asked by her husband 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:34.439 to lead the Task Force on National Healthcare Reform. It 0:20:34.560 --> 0:20:37.040 was an ambitious role that had never been given to 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:41.320 a first Lady before. She said yes, and almost immediately 0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:45.520 the public criticism began to pour in. You've been under 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:50.000 this glaring spotlight. Right. It's unimaginable for a lot of 0:20:50.000 --> 0:20:54.239 people to be under such sustained scrutiny um for so 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:57.840 many decades. And it's it's almost like you've had this 0:20:57.960 --> 0:21:00.760 mirror permanently stationed in front of you that's just been 0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:05.119 reflecting things back in the form of a constructed Hillary. Right, 0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:08.960 I mean, and so I do wonder like, obviously many 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:12.359 of the things reflected back to you had been false, 0:21:12.800 --> 0:21:16.760 had been distorted, um. But was there ever something reflected 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:18.720 back to you over the course of your long career 0:21:18.960 --> 0:21:22.640 that taught you something new about yourself? Yes? And and 0:21:22.720 --> 0:21:26.280 you know, I think. UM, I say this often because 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:28.240 young people ask me all the time, how do you 0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:31.360 get into politics? How do you take you know, all 0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:33.919 the attacks and everything, And I said, look, I learned 0:21:34.200 --> 0:21:38.360 to take criticism seriously, but not personally. And by that, 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:44.240 I mean your critics can uh teach you things that 0:21:44.480 --> 0:21:49.439 your friends either won't or I don't know to UM, 0:21:49.560 --> 0:21:52.600 you have to be careful about where the criticism is 0:21:52.640 --> 0:21:55.760 coming from because a lot of times it's not well meaning. 0:21:55.840 --> 0:22:00.119 It's not it's not well intentioned at all, but you 0:22:00.240 --> 0:22:04.399 do have to at least understand and try to figure 0:22:04.400 --> 0:22:08.640 out how best to deal with it. So with respect 0:22:08.720 --> 0:22:14.399 to health care, UM, I you know, I learned a 0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:20.879 lot about the perceptions shaping reality. UM. You know. My 0:22:21.000 --> 0:22:24.280 view was that we had all these really hard working, 0:22:24.480 --> 0:22:27.520 incredibly smart people from all over the country who were 0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:32.760 coming up with a plan that would make it possible 0:22:32.800 --> 0:22:34.600 for us to get to universal health care and make 0:22:34.640 --> 0:22:38.680 it affordable. So, I mean I worked on that very 0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:41.439 hard to help shape it and then to help present it. 0:22:42.400 --> 0:22:49.639 But I really believe that because I was the President's wife, 0:22:50.520 --> 0:22:54.280 it was hard for a lot of people to accept 0:22:54.760 --> 0:23:00.720 the UM plan for what it was And if I 0:23:00.760 --> 0:23:03.280 had known that going in, I still would have worked 0:23:03.320 --> 0:23:05.320 really hard on it, but I wouldn't have headed it. 0:23:06.320 --> 0:23:09.960 Somebody else would have been the face of it, because 0:23:09.960 --> 0:23:11.800 all I cared about was trying to get it done. 0:23:12.440 --> 0:23:14.399 And you're taking it on as the first Lady of 0:23:14.400 --> 0:23:18.400 the United States, unpaid volunteer. But nevertheless in that role 0:23:19.280 --> 0:23:21.640 that may just be too much for the body politic 0:23:21.800 --> 0:23:25.840 to absorb. And what did that teach you about yourself 0:23:25.880 --> 0:23:29.879 in terms of you know where where specific blind spot was, 0:23:29.960 --> 0:23:32.040 or something that you just needed to learn the hard way, 0:23:32.160 --> 0:23:36.760 like well, I mean, it was a very big learning 0:23:36.960 --> 0:23:43.359 curve to be in a position that was totally vicarious. 0:23:44.280 --> 0:23:47.960 You know, everybody in a White House is there for 0:23:48.080 --> 0:23:52.560 only one reason. The President wants them there. And who 0:23:52.600 --> 0:23:54.640 who the president Mary's ends up in the White House, 0:23:54.640 --> 0:23:56.720 who the President picks as vice president ends up in 0:23:56.800 --> 0:23:58.439 the White House. All these people end up in the 0:23:58.440 --> 0:24:04.040 White House. So I didn't have agency in a way 0:24:04.160 --> 0:24:08.400 that made it my responsibility um as I did when 0:24:08.440 --> 0:24:13.840 I became a senator. I do wonder whether learning this 0:24:13.960 --> 0:24:17.200 lesson um when you were first Lady in the White 0:24:17.240 --> 0:24:21.879 House and recognizing that you maybe didn't love playing the 0:24:22.000 --> 0:24:26.919 vicarious role ended up fueling your interest in you know, 0:24:27.200 --> 0:24:30.399 untethering yourself and and running for senate. Was that was 0:24:30.440 --> 0:24:33.800 that part of the evolution for you? Yes, it was. 0:24:33.880 --> 0:24:37.000 And I'll tell you the exact moment that it all 0:24:37.040 --> 0:24:40.560 came together, because I had, as I said, no idea 0:24:40.720 --> 0:24:43.080 that I would ever actually run for office. And then, 0:24:44.440 --> 0:24:47.760 you know, having um been in the White House and 0:24:48.080 --> 0:24:50.440 knowing that it was going to end, you know, trying 0:24:50.440 --> 0:24:53.000 to think about what I was going to do next 0:24:53.480 --> 0:24:58.600 was pretty much on my mind. And after the mid 0:24:58.720 --> 0:25:02.200 term elections when and then Senator moynihan said he wasn't 0:25:02.200 --> 0:25:06.520 going to run again, immediately Democrats in New York started 0:25:06.560 --> 0:25:10.240 calling me asking me to run, and and I'm sure 0:25:10.280 --> 0:25:12.080 some of them thought I would be an excellent senator, 0:25:12.520 --> 0:25:15.639 but a lot of them thought that, um, I was 0:25:15.640 --> 0:25:17.960 the only person they could think of who was available, 0:25:18.000 --> 0:25:21.720 who could beat Rudy Giuliani, who was running. So you know, 0:25:21.840 --> 0:25:26.199 he had been mayor, he was obviously controversial, he was 0:25:26.240 --> 0:25:29.520 obviously tough and all of that. So we hadn't seen 0:25:29.560 --> 0:25:33.680 anything yet, which is anything. Well, he lost he lost 0:25:33.680 --> 0:25:35.760 his mind. I think I don't know what happened to him. 0:25:36.080 --> 0:25:39.479