Speaker 1: It is a constant balancing act. It's everything from how
Speaker 1: you dress and you know what your hairstyle is, to
Speaker 1: how loudly you speak or how loudly you laugh, or
Speaker 1: you know who you are seen with or I mean,
Speaker 1: it's just a constant judgment. Hillary Rodham Clinton's had a
Speaker 1: complicated relationship with the public. It started in the nineteen
Speaker 1: seventies when she challenged the cookie cutter role laid out
Speaker 1: for her as first Lady of Arkansas. It's all occurs
Speaker 1: to me that you don't really don't fit the image
Speaker 1: that we have created or the governor's wife in Arkansas.
Speaker 1: You're not a native. Um, you've been educated in liberal
Speaker 1: Eastern universities. If you're less than for it, you don't
Speaker 1: have any children, you don't use your husband's name, you
Speaker 1: practice law. Does it concern you that maybe other people
Speaker 1: feel that you don't fit the image that we have
Speaker 1: created for the governor's wife in Arkansas. No, Um, that
Speaker 1: doesn't bother me. Um, And I hope that doesn't bother
Speaker 1: very many people. But it did bother many people. Hillary
Speaker 1: being Hillary made people uncomfortable, and so one by one,
Speaker 1: her critics started asking her to change herself. Despite all
Speaker 1: her extraordinary accomplishments, including senator, secretary of state, first woman
Speaker 1: to be nominated for president by a major political party,
Speaker 1: and I mean she even won the popular vote in
Speaker 1: the election. Despite all of that, people kept at it.
Speaker 1: They wanted Hillary to be different, for her to change,
Speaker 1: and she was willing to change, just never in the
Speaker 1: way that people had hoped. Our constilled Chillian ore Con.
Speaker 1: I'm Maya Shanker, and this is a slight change of plans,
Speaker 1: a show that died deep into the world of change
Speaker 1: and hopefully gets us to think differently about change in
Speaker 1: our own lives. Hi, how are you. Hi? It's great
Speaker 1: to meet you, Secretary Clinton. I just wanted to welcome
Speaker 1: you formally to my closet. UM. I always dreamed it
Speaker 1: would be this way, you know, the first time I
Speaker 1: met Hillary Clinton would be from my makeshift recording studio
Speaker 1: with clothes everywhere. But I guess this is the world
Speaker 1: we live in right now. It is the world we
Speaker 1: live in. I have been um privy to many closets
Speaker 1: over the last year because as I've been doing my
Speaker 1: podcast and talking with friends on Zoom and everything, people
Speaker 1: are in closets there in corners of their bedroom there
Speaker 1: in kitchens. I mean, it's just been quite a tour
Speaker 1: of everybody's living space exactly. You get, you get an
Speaker 1: intimate glimpse into people's lives exactly. So I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: jump in. Do you mind if I call you Hillary?
Speaker 1: Not at all, Not at all. Uh. So I love
Speaker 1: to rewind the clock to your twenties, um, and we
Speaker 1: can take the little time machine back in time. Um.
Speaker 1: So you're a lawyer in d C. You've just wrapped
Speaker 1: up your work on the Nixon impeachment hearings, and then
Speaker 1: love gets in the way and you end up moving
Speaker 1: to Arkansas, and um Bill becomes governor and you are
Speaker 1: not the typical first lady. Uh. And that's met with
Speaker 1: some resistance, right. Do you mind sharing what it was
Speaker 1: that people were taking issue with? Well, I think that
Speaker 1: back in what would have been the nineteen seventies, it
Speaker 1: was still, you know, somewhat unusual to have graduated from
Speaker 1: law school to be teaching law or practicing law. I
Speaker 1: did both, uh And I really saw that, but I
Speaker 1: didn't think it would impede me in any way. And
Speaker 1: then when I married Bill in nineteen seventy five, you know,
Speaker 1: I determined that I would keep my own name, which
Speaker 1: seemed to me to make a lot of sense, because
Speaker 1: that's what I had written under a uh at law school,
Speaker 1: that's what I had practice law undertaught, et cetera. And
Speaker 1: I think it was um really at the point that
Speaker 1: our daughter was born in uh uh February of nineteen
Speaker 1: eighty and Bill was having to run for reelection because
Speaker 1: there were only two year terms for governors back then,
Speaker 1: and the front page announcement was Governor Bill Clinton and
Speaker 1: Hillary Rodham, you know, announced the birth of their daughter, Chelsea.
Speaker 1: It was probably that moment that really pierced people's public
Speaker 1: consciousness that oh my gosh, she has a different name.
Speaker 1: And then that became a really big issue. And so
Speaker 1: when Bill lost for re election in night in the
Speaker 1: Reagan Landslide, among the top reasons people said that they
Speaker 1: didn't vote for him was because I didn't take his
Speaker 1: last name or change my name, as they would say.
Speaker 1: And it was a truly um surprising revelation to me
Speaker 1: that that would matter so much to people. But now,
Speaker 1: frankly wouldn't make that big a difference to anybody, but
Speaker 1: it was significant, and I had so many people come
Speaker 1: to me and say, you really have to take your
Speaker 1: husband's last name. You're really stopping him from being able
Speaker 1: to run again and be governor again. And there's a
Speaker 1: lot at stake with him being governor. And the one
Speaker 1: person never asked me to do that was my husband.
Speaker 1: He thought it was pretty ridiculous also, But I concluded
Speaker 1: that it was, you know, for me, um, something that
Speaker 1: I was willing to do. And I made an announcement
Speaker 1: that I would be Hillary Rodham Clinton. And obviously it
Speaker 1: went against what I thought was my decision, but I
Speaker 1: balanced all of the pros and cons and decided that
Speaker 1: on balance, it was the right thing for me to do. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people, women, especially face the
Speaker 1: same kind of tension, which is knowing when it makes
Speaker 1: sense to compromise. Right, Do I do I take a
Speaker 1: principal stance at every turn, but then risk getting kicked
Speaker 1: out of the arena altogether and then lose my ability
Speaker 1: to have impact. Or do I try to more thoughtfully
Speaker 1: pick my battles and stay in the arena and just
Speaker 1: play the longer game. Well, that's exactly right. I was
Speaker 1: not going to stop practicing law. I was not going
Speaker 1: to stop being outspoken about a lot of issues that
Speaker 1: really mattered to me. And when Bill was reelected in
Speaker 1: two um, I dove back in uh and share the
Speaker 1: task force to reform education in the state. And it
Speaker 1: was I'm sure easier for some people to hear the
Speaker 1: changes I was advocating for because I was all of
Speaker 1: a sudden truly understood to be the governor's wife. So
Speaker 1: it is a constant balancing act. And I'm sure that's
Speaker 1: true for all people, but I think you're right to
Speaker 1: say that as women, we make those decisions constantly. Uh.
Speaker 1: And it's everything from how you dress and you know
Speaker 1: what your hairstyle is too, how loudly you speak, or
Speaker 1: how loudly you laugh, or you know who you are
Speaker 1: seen with or I mean, it's just a constant judgment
Speaker 1: both internally you're judging yourself, but most uh importantly how
Speaker 1: you're being judged, because there continues to be a rather
Speaker 1: active double standard. Yeah. There's some really telling footage from
Speaker 1: back in the day where you're getting interviewed about your
Speaker 1: role as first Lady, and underneath your face it says
Speaker 1: Hillary Raddon and the underneath that in parentheses it says
Speaker 1: Mrs Bill Clinton. I mean, I just laughed out loud. Right,
Speaker 1: But I'm part of a different generation where it just
Speaker 1: seems like, of course, I'm going to keep my last name.
Speaker 1: But I recognized that at the time that was a
Speaker 1: truly bold, uh feminist statement. UM. So I want to
Speaker 1: dig into that a little bit more, which is when
Speaker 1: you did first marry Bill Um, what what fueled your
Speaker 1: decision to keep your last name. I was just um,
Speaker 1: you know, feeling like he was going into politics, uh,
Speaker 1: and he would have a very public life at that time.
Speaker 1: I never thought I would personally run for office, but
Speaker 1: I thought I would stay as an advocate. Um. I'd
Speaker 1: been you know, working for the Children's Offense Fund, I'd
Speaker 1: been a lawyer on the impeachment inquiry staff. I'd had
Speaker 1: really fascinating important jobs um for me, and I wanted
Speaker 1: my professional life to be considered separate from his. And
Speaker 1: I'll tell you a funny story. Before I took his
Speaker 1: last name, I was um helping on a big lawsuit
Speaker 1: in my law firm with one of the senior partners.
Speaker 1: And we went to trial. And we went to trial
Speaker 1: in this rural county outside of Little Rock, and the
Speaker 1: judge was at that time under investigation and the office
Speaker 1: investigating him was the Attorney General's office, headed by my husband.
Speaker 1: So we were in the courtroom and this was the
Speaker 1: kind of judge back in the day who would say
Speaker 1: how pretty I looked, and asked me to stand up
Speaker 1: and twirl around to show everybody what, you know, pretty
Speaker 1: dress I was wearing. On and on. We made our
Speaker 1: case and we moved to be dismissed from the case,
Speaker 1: and we were successful. So we get back to our
Speaker 1: office and the next day the senior partner calls me
Speaker 1: in and he said, well, I'm sure glad we got
Speaker 1: dismissed yesterday because on one of the breaks, the judge
Speaker 1: was cursing out your husband, talking about how terrible the
Speaker 1: Attorney general was to be investigating him. So one of
Speaker 1: the other lawyers said, well, you know, your honor, uh,
Speaker 1: that young woman that was in the courtroom, that's Bill
Speaker 1: Clinton's wife. And the judge said, well, if I'd known that,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have dismissed the case against your client. Now,
Speaker 1: that to me encapsulated, you know, the challenge of being
Speaker 1: married to a public figure but being very committed to
Speaker 1: my own professional career. I mean, I love that Bill
Speaker 1: never asked you to change your name. So when you finally,
Speaker 1: when you finally took the plunge, what did he say
Speaker 1: to you? Was he kind of like thanks? But yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: he basically said, look, you know, I wish you wouldn't
Speaker 1: have to do this. I wish you didn't think you
Speaker 1: had to do it. Please don't do it for me.
Speaker 1: And you know, he said everything the right thing, but
Speaker 1: he also encountered from a lot of you know, his
Speaker 1: male supporters, you know, men who would say, you know, Bill,
Speaker 1: I always thought of you as a really you know,
Speaker 1: strong guy, and how come you don't make your wife
Speaker 1: take you know, take your name. I mean, it was
Speaker 1: such a flash point, and it it was, you know,
Speaker 1: something that I guess both of us should have predicted.
Speaker 1: Now we would be you know, just laughing at it.
Speaker 1: But look at what they make big issues out of today.
Speaker 1: So I guess we shouldn't be surprised that anything which
Speaker 1: touches a cultural, uh hot point is going to provoke
Speaker 1: a reaction. Do you remember the first time you introduced
Speaker 1: yourself as Hillary Clinton? Oh? Sure, I would. I did
Speaker 1: a press conference. I mean, you know, I was at
Speaker 1: an event and I said, look, I know this means
Speaker 1: a lot of a number of people, and I don't
Speaker 1: want their concern about you know, my last name to
Speaker 1: interfere with doing what's right for the state and making
Speaker 1: some tough decisions. So from now on I will be
Speaker 1: uh known as Hillary Rodham Clinton. I just did it,
Speaker 1: very matter of fact. I didn't make a big deal
Speaker 1: out of it, and um, you know I assumed that. Okay,
Speaker 1: now you can argue about me about other things. Why
Speaker 1: is she still working? Why why is she, you know,
Speaker 1: telling people to raise their taxes to pay for teachers?
Speaker 1: What is she doing? And then later why is she
Speaker 1: fighting for healthcare and the you know when Bill was president?
Speaker 1: So fine, if if, if this gets you to focus
Speaker 1: on what I actually think it is important, and that
Speaker 1: is how we're going to live together, make tough decisions together. Uh,
Speaker 1: let's do that. It's interesting. I mean, there was an
Speaker 1: element of a slippery slope which used to change her name.
Speaker 1: It's that with positive reception and then all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: people are like, oh, yeah, but what about your hair
Speaker 1: and your glasses make up? Think can we get you
Speaker 1: a stylist. I'm curioused to know whether changing any of
Speaker 1: these parts of yourself ever affected your self perception. You know,
Speaker 1: I never thought any of it affected my um self
Speaker 1: perception or my identity, and there were parts that I
Speaker 1: ended up enjoying. You know, I finally got around to
Speaker 1: forcing myself to our contact lenses, you know, made a
Speaker 1: big difference and how I could actually see as well
Speaker 1: as be seen. Uh, I had a lot of fun
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you know, thinking well, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't have to just wear turtlenecks and and and
Speaker 1: baggy vests and and you know skirts and pants or whatever. Um. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: they're parts of it that were interesting that you know,
Speaker 1: maybe I wouldn't have pursued had I not married Bill,
Speaker 1: or had I not ever married anybody. But I didn't
Speaker 1: ever feel like it affected my core as to who
Speaker 1: I was. I I never and I give my parents
Speaker 1: credit for this, maya. I never I never really felt like, uh,
Speaker 1: anybody was damaging me or undermining me or subverting me
Speaker 1: because I just didn't, you know, either respond to that
Speaker 1: or didn't frankly allow it. So, you know, maybe it's stubbornness.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's just the you know, strength of you know,
Speaker 1: two parents who never told me that there wasn't anything
Speaker 1: I couldn't do as a woman. Um, and so I
Speaker 1: don't feel like any of the sort of small choices
Speaker 1: compromises that I made along the way were that significant.
Speaker 1: I did feel so strong in my own sense of
Speaker 1: being in purpose. I think that also caused a reaction,
Speaker 1: and I think that was hard for people, uh, men
Speaker 1: and women to understand. But it's just who I am. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I do wonder whether this is so interesting because it
Speaker 1: almost seems like the people of Arkansas wanted you to
Speaker 1: suffer a bit more from that name changed, Like it
Speaker 1: would have almost felt more satisfying, Um, if it had
Speaker 1: been a really challenging thing for you, Like maybe they
Speaker 1: were they were hoping you were going to give them
Speaker 1: something meaningful to show how much you. I don't know
Speaker 1: is how wrong i'd been. How Yeah, it's like the
Speaker 1: fact that it was easy in some sense because you're
Speaker 1: such a pragmatist right to change your last name, left
Speaker 1: people feeling like, Okay, she changed the last name, but
Speaker 1: damn it, but she didn't do enough. Yeah, we were
Speaker 1: trying to change her and she's not willing to change.
Speaker 1: That's one right, that's really perceptive. Maya, that is exactly right.
Speaker 1: And this has been a constant theme through my adult life.
Speaker 1: You know, Um, there's something about women stepping into the arena,
Speaker 1: particularly being unapologetic about it, being um, willing to stand
Speaker 1: up against or call out uh strong groups or interest
Speaker 1: groups or forces at work whatever. Uh. That is in
Speaker 1: and of itself still somewhat um surprising and even uh
Speaker 1: not fully acceptable. Uh. And and so I I really
Speaker 1: did experience that, um, and I think I paid a
Speaker 1: price for it. I mean I think that, you know,
Speaker 1: being unapologetically outspoken and willing to uh challenge conventional wisdom.
Speaker 1: You know, it's discomforting for a lot of people. Yeah,
Speaker 1: did I put up with a lot of stuff? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Did I put up with a lot of stuff when
Speaker 1: I ran for office? Yeah? Did I put up with
Speaker 1: you know, all kind lines of you know, sexism and misogyny. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: some I just ignored for you know, all the reasons
Speaker 1: that people women of my age ignored that stuff. Uh.
Speaker 1: It just wasn't worth the battle. Even in the case
Speaker 1: of Arkansas, you made all these superficial changes to your
Speaker 1: look and you changed your last name, but it didn't
Speaker 1: it didn't do what people were hoping to do, which
Speaker 1: is to break you a little bit, you know, to
Speaker 1: like expose some deep vulnerabilities, because what do bullies want. Ultimately,
Speaker 1: they want to get a rise out of you. They
Speaker 1: want to see you crack a bit. But you know,
Speaker 1: it's so interesting. This is so interesting to me because
Speaker 1: in the seen campaign, like for example, the famous incident
Speaker 1: of the second debate where Trump is looming over me,
Speaker 1: leering at me and trying to intimidate me, and I'm
Speaker 1: madly going through what are my options here? Do I
Speaker 1: turn around and say, back up, you creep? You know
Speaker 1: you don't intimidate me? Do I, you know, try to
Speaker 1: laugh it off? What do I do? How do ideal
Speaker 1: with what is a clearly uh signaled effort on his
Speaker 1: part to his supporters that he's got the little lady
Speaker 1: in hand because he's a master manipulator. And it was hard,
Speaker 1: and eventually I decided, no, you know, I'm not going
Speaker 1: to respond. I'm not going to either laugh it off
Speaker 1: or try to, you know, expose it, because I don't
Speaker 1: want people to think I can't take it. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm trying to be president of the United States, for
Speaker 1: heaven's sakes. So this is a highly complicated calculation as
Speaker 1: a woman, and I probably would guess that women make
Speaker 1: that calculation dozens of times a day. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: I think that this constant critique that you've gotten over
Speaker 1: the course of your whole life is we don't know
Speaker 1: the real Hillary Clinton. And I just wonder and having
Speaker 1: this conversation if that's a euphemism for we don't accept
Speaker 1: the real Hillary Clinton's that that is exactly She is
Speaker 1: not like me, or she's not like the women that
Speaker 1: I know, or she's not like what I want a
Speaker 1: woman to be. You know, I used to laugh when
Speaker 1: uh people in the media would say, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: she yells. Have you ever gone to a rally where
Speaker 1: any man is running for anything and he doesn't at
Speaker 1: some point yell, I mean, good grief, look whoy I
Speaker 1: was running against in and all of the yelling that
Speaker 1: went on. But you know, that's not what we want.
Speaker 1: So this is one of the areas that is really
Speaker 1: rich for further research and understanding, because how do you
Speaker 1: communicate about that. You know, you don't want to sound
Speaker 1: like you're whining, you don't want to sound like you
Speaker 1: can't take it, you don't want to sound like you're
Speaker 1: asking for special treatment. But how do you begin to
Speaker 1: unpack that we'll be back in a moment. That the
Speaker 1: slight change of plans. When Hillary Clinton moved into the
Speaker 1: White House after her husband became president, she again challenged
Speaker 1: the cookie cutter role laid out for her, this time
Speaker 1: as First Lady of the United States. Instead of sticking
Speaker 1: to her ceremonial duties, Hillary was asked by her husband
Speaker 1: to lead the Task Force on National Healthcare Reform. It
Speaker 1: was an ambitious role that had never been given to
Speaker 1: a first Lady before. She said yes, and almost immediately
Speaker 1: the public criticism began to pour in. You've been under
Speaker 1: this glaring spotlight. Right. It's unimaginable for a lot of
Speaker 1: people to be under such sustained scrutiny um for so
Speaker 1: many decades. And it's it's almost like you've had this
Speaker 1: mirror permanently stationed in front of you that's just been
Speaker 1: reflecting things back in the form of a constructed Hillary. Right,
Speaker 1: I mean, and so I do wonder like, obviously many
Speaker 1: of the things reflected back to you had been false,
Speaker 1: had been distorted, um. But was there ever something reflected
Speaker 1: back to you over the course of your long career
Speaker 1: that taught you something new about yourself? Yes? And and
Speaker 1: you know, I think. UM, I say this often because
Speaker 1: young people ask me all the time, how do you
Speaker 1: get into politics? How do you take you know, all
Speaker 1: the attacks and everything, And I said, look, I learned
Speaker 1: to take criticism seriously, but not personally. And by that,
Speaker 1: I mean your critics can uh teach you things that
Speaker 1: your friends either won't or I don't know to UM,
Speaker 1: you have to be careful about where the criticism is
Speaker 1: coming from because a lot of times it's not well meaning.
Speaker 1: It's not it's not well intentioned at all, but you
Speaker 1: do have to at least understand and try to figure
Speaker 1: out how best to deal with it. So with respect
Speaker 1: to health care, UM, I you know, I learned a
Speaker 1: lot about the perceptions shaping reality. UM. You know. My
Speaker 1: view was that we had all these really hard working,
Speaker 1: incredibly smart people from all over the country who were
Speaker 1: coming up with a plan that would make it possible
Speaker 1: for us to get to universal health care and make
Speaker 1: it affordable. So, I mean I worked on that very
Speaker 1: hard to help shape it and then to help present it.
Speaker 1: But I really believe that because I was the President's wife,
Speaker 1: it was hard for a lot of people to accept
Speaker 1: the UM plan for what it was And if I
Speaker 1: had known that going in, I still would have worked
Speaker 1: really hard on it, but I wouldn't have headed it.
Speaker 1: Somebody else would have been the face of it, because
Speaker 1: all I cared about was trying to get it done.
Speaker 1: And you're taking it on as the first Lady of
Speaker 1: the United States, unpaid volunteer. But nevertheless in that role
Speaker 1: that may just be too much for the body politic
Speaker 1: to absorb. And what did that teach you about yourself
Speaker 1: in terms of you know where where specific blind spot was,
Speaker 1: or something that you just needed to learn the hard way,
Speaker 1: like well, I mean, it was a very big learning
Speaker 1: curve to be in a position that was totally vicarious.
Speaker 1: You know, everybody in a White House is there for
Speaker 1: only one reason. The President wants them there. And who
Speaker 1: who the president Mary's ends up in the White House,
Speaker 1: who the President picks as vice president ends up in
Speaker 1: the White House. All these people end up in the
Speaker 1: White House. So I didn't have agency in a way
Speaker 1: that made it my responsibility um as I did when
Speaker 1: I became a senator. I do wonder whether learning this
Speaker 1: lesson um when you were first Lady in the White
Speaker 1: House and recognizing that you maybe didn't love playing the
Speaker 1: vicarious role ended up fueling your interest in you know,
Speaker 1: untethering yourself and and running for senate. Was that was
Speaker 1: that part of the evolution for you? Yes, it was.
Speaker 1: And I'll tell you the exact moment that it all
Speaker 1: came together, because I had, as I said, no idea
Speaker 1: that I would ever actually run for office. And then,
Speaker 1: you know, having um been in the White House and
Speaker 1: knowing that it was going to end, you know, trying
Speaker 1: to think about what I was going to do next
Speaker 1: was pretty much on my mind. And after the mid
Speaker 1: term elections when and then Senator moynihan said he wasn't
Speaker 1: going to run again, immediately Democrats in New York started
Speaker 1: calling me asking me to run, and and I'm sure
Speaker 1: some of them thought I would be an excellent senator,
Speaker 1: but a lot of them thought that, um, I was
Speaker 1: the only person they could think of who was available,
Speaker 1: who could beat Rudy Giuliani, who was running. So you know,
Speaker 1: he had been mayor, he was obviously controversial, he was
Speaker 1: obviously tough and all of that. So we hadn't seen
Speaker 1: anything yet, which is anything. Well, he lost he lost
Speaker 1: his mind. I think I don't know what happened to him.
Speaker 1: But so people started calling me members of Congress and others,
Speaker 1: and I kept saying no, no, no, no no. And
Speaker 1: then in the spring of ninety nine, I was as
Speaker 1: first lady in New York City at a high school
Speaker 1: to promote women's sports. It was like a Title nine event,
Speaker 1: and there was a new um documentary coming out about
Speaker 1: women in sports, and the name of the documentary was
Speaker 1: Dare to Compete. And of course, you know, the New
Speaker 1: York papers are filled with people trying to get me
Speaker 1: to run and my saying, you know, no, etcetera. And
Speaker 1: the young woman who introduced me captain of you know,
Speaker 1: basketball team, she introduced me, and then she bent over
Speaker 1: and she whispered in my ear, dare to compete, Mrs Clinton,
Speaker 1: dare to compete. I was so astonished by that, because
Speaker 1: you know, I had spent many years urging women to compete,
Speaker 1: you know, in sports and academics and science, in politics.
Speaker 1: I campaigned for dozens of women running for Congress or governor,
Speaker 1: whatever election it was. And I suddenly thought to myself,
Speaker 1: maybe you're afraid to compete. Maybe you are telling people
Speaker 1: to do something that you wouldn't do yourself. And it
Speaker 1: was literally at that moment that I took seriously running
Speaker 1: for the Senate and working through it and trying to
Speaker 1: be as honest with myself as I could. I thought, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm going to try this, and I had no idea
Speaker 1: whether it would work or not, because when you're uh
Speaker 1: supporting somebody else, and I'd support it, not just my husband,
Speaker 1: but you know, hundreds of people, you know, it's always
Speaker 1: about them, and then all of a sudden, you know
Speaker 1: it's about you. And so it was. It was a
Speaker 1: big transition. But it was that well, that young woman
Speaker 1: at that moment that really, I think turned my head around.
Speaker 1: What do you think you were scared of? I think
Speaker 1: it was just the unknown. I think it was knowing
Speaker 1: how hard politics is, because honestly I'm kind of an
Speaker 1: expert on that. I thought, you know, I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: be walking into the meat grinder. It's been, you know,
Speaker 1: a very eventful eight years. I could go teach, or
Speaker 1: write or do all kinds of interesting things. Why do
Speaker 1: I want to do that? You know? Why do I
Speaker 1: want to subject myself to that? And and remember I
Speaker 1: had been burned in effigy long with other things, so
Speaker 1: I knew I was already again because of all the
Speaker 1: stuff I represented as a I don't know, baby boomer
Speaker 1: woman who you know, didn't know her place. I guess
Speaker 1: I had been, you know, subjected to so many attacks
Speaker 1: from Rush Limbaugh and all the people like that. Why
Speaker 1: did I want to do that? Why? And then I
Speaker 1: kind of thought, Okay, you have been and you also
Speaker 1: believe that there's a lot of things we need to do.
Speaker 1: You've had a front row seat on history. So get
Speaker 1: out there and try. You never know until you try. Um,
Speaker 1: So that's what I ended up doing. Yeah. I think
Speaker 1: it's easy for people to think of you now and
Speaker 1: say Hillary Clinton came out of the box this way, right.
Speaker 1: She was she always had the courage in bravery to
Speaker 1: run for these big offices. But you know, you had
Speaker 1: to go through your own personal evolution just like every
Speaker 1: other person out there. Um, what were some if you
Speaker 1: don't mind sharing, like, what were some insecurities that you
Speaker 1: had along the way that you had to work through?
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. You know, once you're out there on
Speaker 1: your own, you're not there too advocate for a program
Speaker 1: or advocate for a candidate. You know, I think, um,
Speaker 1: we're gonna be atty good at it. You know, you
Speaker 1: go from behind the scenes to the front of the stage,
Speaker 1: and how are people going to respond to you? And
Speaker 1: are they going to believe you, listen to you, agree
Speaker 1: with you? Um, is your personality? Is it going to
Speaker 1: be enough? So yeah, I mean there's a lot of
Speaker 1: of criticism, and then you know, you get all of
Speaker 1: the gendered criticism like, um, don't wear that color where
Speaker 1: this color, don't wear flat shoes where heels or vice versa,
Speaker 1: don't let your hair grow, don't let your hair be short.
Speaker 1: I mean, you everybody feels like they can critique a
Speaker 1: woman in the public arena. They don't do that to men,
Speaker 1: you know, nine percent of the time. And I had
Speaker 1: some of the same experience when I practiced law, because
Speaker 1: you know, there were expectations about what a woman lawyer
Speaker 1: should look like. So I wasn't totally surprised, but the
Speaker 1: amount of unsolicited advice that you start to receive, and
Speaker 1: people say things like, you know, uh, learn to talk
Speaker 1: like and then they always fell on a man's name,
Speaker 1: like learn to talk like Bill Clinton, learned to talk
Speaker 1: like Winston Churchill. I remember somebody said all of these
Speaker 1: kind of uh, you know, expectations that are not at
Speaker 1: all who you are, and what you have to do
Speaker 1: is just earned to be yourself, and just be yourself
Speaker 1: and do the best you can, and then you know
Speaker 1: you'll either be successful or not, but at least you'll
Speaker 1: be true to yourself. I have been pretty much the
Speaker 1: same person says that was a little girl, and I
Speaker 1: think your insights into how that rattled a lot of
Speaker 1: people in terms of what was to be expected. But
Speaker 1: I also think that it still is affecting women across
Speaker 1: the board in every walk of life, and so you
Speaker 1: have to first of all be at peace with who
Speaker 1: you are, then try to translate that into the role
Speaker 1: you're playing in an effective way, whether it's private or
Speaker 1: personal or public, and just get the most out of
Speaker 1: every day. Constiu, constute, if we hadn't talked so much
Speaker 1: about me, I have a lot of questions for you.
Speaker 1: I think you're slightly more interesting than me, So I'm
Speaker 1: glad we spent the time this way. It was such
Speaker 1: a pleasure. Good luck too, and I hope I get
Speaker 1: to meet you in person. Take care, Yes, I hope
Speaker 1: so too. All right, take care, Okay, bye bye, Hey,
Speaker 1: thanks for listening. See you next week when I'm going
Speaker 1: to be talking to change expert Dr Katie Milkman about
Speaker 1: science based strategies to help you inspire change in your
Speaker 1: own life. And I was in the seminar and a
Speaker 1: graph went up, which normally doesn't change your life, but
Speaker 1: this graph changed my life. The graph just showed a
Speaker 1: breakdown of how many premature deaths are due to different causes,
Speaker 1: and of premature death turn out to be the result
Speaker 1: of decisions that we can change. Do you have a
Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans story that you'd like to share?
Speaker 1: Are leave a message on our change hotline at nine
Speaker 1: one seven, five four four eight, nine seven seven. It
Speaker 1: could just end up on a future episode of this show.
Speaker 1: That's nine one seven, five four four eight nine seven seven.
Speaker 1: You can follow us on Twitter at Slight Change Pod.
Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is created, co written, and
Speaker 1: executive produced by me Maya Shunker. It's produced and co
Speaker 1: written by Mola Board. Associate producer is David John, Executive
Speaker 1: producer is Justine Lange, Editor is Jen Guera. Sound design
Speaker 1: and mixed engineering from Jason Gambrel and Ben Holliday. Our
Speaker 1: theme song is I Can Change by Lake Street Dive.
Speaker 1: Original music for the series by Jason Gambrel, additional music
Speaker 1: from Blue Dot Sessions and Epidemic Sound, and of course
Speaker 1: a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. To learn more
Speaker 1: about a Slight Change of Plans and to sign up
Speaker 1: for our newsletter, visit Pushkin dot fm. You can follow
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