1 00:00:02,160 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 1: It is a constant balancing act. It's everything from how 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:08,879 Speaker 1: you dress and you know what your hairstyle is, to 3 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: how loudly you speak or how loudly you laugh, or 4 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: you know who you are seen with or I mean, 5 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: it's just a constant judgment. Hillary Rodham Clinton's had a 6 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: complicated relationship with the public. It started in the nineteen 7 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 1: seventies when she challenged the cookie cutter role laid out 8 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: for her as first Lady of Arkansas. It's all occurs 9 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: to me that you don't really don't fit the image 10 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 1: that we have created or the governor's wife in Arkansas. 11 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:38,880 Speaker 1: You're not a native. Um, you've been educated in liberal 12 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:41,840 Speaker 1: Eastern universities. If you're less than for it, you don't 13 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: have any children, you don't use your husband's name, you 14 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:49,160 Speaker 1: practice law. Does it concern you that maybe other people 15 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: feel that you don't fit the image that we have 16 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: created for the governor's wife in Arkansas. No, Um, that 17 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: doesn't bother me. Um, And I hope that doesn't bother 18 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 1: very many people. But it did bother many people. Hillary 19 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: being Hillary made people uncomfortable, and so one by one, 20 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 1: her critics started asking her to change herself. Despite all 21 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: her extraordinary accomplishments, including senator, secretary of state, first woman 22 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,839 Speaker 1: to be nominated for president by a major political party, 23 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: and I mean she even won the popular vote in 24 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: the election. Despite all of that, people kept at it. 25 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: They wanted Hillary to be different, for her to change, 26 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 1: and she was willing to change, just never in the 27 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 1: way that people had hoped. Our constilled Chillian ore Con. 28 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: I'm Maya Shanker, and this is a slight change of plans, 29 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: a show that died deep into the world of change 30 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: and hopefully gets us to think differently about change in 31 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: our own lives. Hi, how are you. Hi? It's great 32 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: to meet you, Secretary Clinton. I just wanted to welcome 33 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: you formally to my closet. UM. I always dreamed it 34 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: would be this way, you know, the first time I 35 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 1: met Hillary Clinton would be from my makeshift recording studio 36 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: with clothes everywhere. But I guess this is the world 37 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: we live in right now. It is the world we 38 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: live in. I have been um privy to many closets 39 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:28,640 Speaker 1: over the last year because as I've been doing my 40 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,919 Speaker 1: podcast and talking with friends on Zoom and everything, people 41 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: are in closets there in corners of their bedroom there 42 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: in kitchens. I mean, it's just been quite a tour 43 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: of everybody's living space exactly. You get, you get an 44 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 1: intimate glimpse into people's lives exactly. So I'm just gonna 45 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: jump in. Do you mind if I call you Hillary? 46 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: Not at all, Not at all. Uh. So I love 47 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: to rewind the clock to your twenties, um, and we 48 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: can take the little time machine back in time. Um. 49 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,639 Speaker 1: So you're a lawyer in d C. You've just wrapped 50 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: up your work on the Nixon impeachment hearings, and then 51 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: love gets in the way and you end up moving 52 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: to Arkansas, and um Bill becomes governor and you are 53 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: not the typical first lady. Uh. And that's met with 54 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 1: some resistance, right. Do you mind sharing what it was 55 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: that people were taking issue with? Well, I think that 56 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: back in what would have been the nineteen seventies, it 57 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 1: was still, you know, somewhat unusual to have graduated from 58 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: law school to be teaching law or practicing law. I 59 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: did both, uh And I really saw that, but I 60 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: didn't think it would impede me in any way. And 61 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: then when I married Bill in nineteen seventy five, you know, 62 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: I determined that I would keep my own name, which 63 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: seemed to me to make a lot of sense, because 64 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: that's what I had written under a uh at law school, 65 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: that's what I had practice law undertaught, et cetera. And 66 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: I think it was um really at the point that 67 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:18,039 Speaker 1: our daughter was born in uh uh February of nineteen 68 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 1: eighty and Bill was having to run for reelection because 69 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:26,479 Speaker 1: there were only two year terms for governors back then, 70 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: and the front page announcement was Governor Bill Clinton and 71 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: Hillary Rodham, you know, announced the birth of their daughter, Chelsea. 72 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:43,160 Speaker 1: It was probably that moment that really pierced people's public 73 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 1: consciousness that oh my gosh, she has a different name. 74 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 1: And then that became a really big issue. And so 75 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 1: when Bill lost for re election in night in the 76 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 1: Reagan Landslide, among the top reasons people said that they 77 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 1: didn't vote for him was because I didn't take his 78 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 1: last name or change my name, as they would say. 79 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:12,720 Speaker 1: And it was a truly um surprising revelation to me 80 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:15,839 Speaker 1: that that would matter so much to people. But now, 81 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: frankly wouldn't make that big a difference to anybody, but 82 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: it was significant, and I had so many people come 83 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: to me and say, you really have to take your 84 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 1: husband's last name. You're really stopping him from being able 85 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:33,919 Speaker 1: to run again and be governor again. And there's a 86 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 1: lot at stake with him being governor. And the one 87 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: person never asked me to do that was my husband. 88 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: He thought it was pretty ridiculous also, But I concluded 89 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 1: that it was, you know, for me, um, something that 90 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: I was willing to do. And I made an announcement 91 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: that I would be Hillary Rodham Clinton. And obviously it 92 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: went against what I thought was my decision, but I 93 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: balanced all of the pros and cons and decided that 94 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: on balance, it was the right thing for me to do. Yeah. 95 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people, women, especially face the 96 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: same kind of tension, which is knowing when it makes 97 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: sense to compromise. Right, Do I do I take a 98 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: principal stance at every turn, but then risk getting kicked 99 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:25,919 Speaker 1: out of the arena altogether and then lose my ability 100 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: to have impact. Or do I try to more thoughtfully 101 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: pick my battles and stay in the arena and just 102 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: play the longer game. Well, that's exactly right. I was 103 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: not going to stop practicing law. I was not going 104 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 1: to stop being outspoken about a lot of issues that 105 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: really mattered to me. And when Bill was reelected in 106 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 1: two um, I dove back in uh and share the 107 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 1: task force to reform education in the state. And it 108 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: was I'm sure easier for some people to hear the 109 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 1: changes I was advocating for because I was all of 110 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: a sudden truly understood to be the governor's wife. So 111 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: it is a constant balancing act. And I'm sure that's 112 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: true for all people, but I think you're right to 113 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: say that as women, we make those decisions constantly. Uh. 114 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: And it's everything from how you dress and you know 115 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: what your hairstyle is too, how loudly you speak, or 116 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: how loudly you laugh, or you know who you are 117 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: seen with or I mean, it's just a constant judgment 118 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: both internally you're judging yourself, but most uh importantly how 119 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: you're being judged, because there continues to be a rather 120 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: active double standard. Yeah. There's some really telling footage from 121 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: back in the day where you're getting interviewed about your 122 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: role as first Lady, and underneath your face it says 123 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 1: Hillary Raddon and the underneath that in parentheses it says 124 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: Mrs Bill Clinton. I mean, I just laughed out loud. Right, 125 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: But I'm part of a different generation where it just 126 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: seems like, of course, I'm going to keep my last name. 127 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 1: But I recognized that at the time that was a 128 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 1: truly bold, uh feminist statement. UM. So I want to 129 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: dig into that a little bit more, which is when 130 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: you did first marry Bill Um, what what fueled your 131 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: decision to keep your last name. I was just um, 132 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:33,559 Speaker 1: you know, feeling like he was going into politics, uh, 133 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,439 Speaker 1: and he would have a very public life at that time. 134 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 1: I never thought I would personally run for office, but 135 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: I thought I would stay as an advocate. Um. I'd 136 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:45,439 Speaker 1: been you know, working for the Children's Offense Fund, I'd 137 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 1: been a lawyer on the impeachment inquiry staff. I'd had 138 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: really fascinating important jobs um for me, and I wanted 139 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: my professional life to be considered separate from his. And 140 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: I'll tell you a funny story. Before I took his 141 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:08,679 Speaker 1: last name, I was um helping on a big lawsuit 142 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: in my law firm with one of the senior partners. 143 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:14,079 Speaker 1: And we went to trial. And we went to trial 144 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: in this rural county outside of Little Rock, and the 145 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: judge was at that time under investigation and the office 146 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 1: investigating him was the Attorney General's office, headed by my husband. 147 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: So we were in the courtroom and this was the 148 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: kind of judge back in the day who would say 149 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: how pretty I looked, and asked me to stand up 150 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: and twirl around to show everybody what, you know, pretty 151 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: dress I was wearing. On and on. We made our 152 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 1: case and we moved to be dismissed from the case, 153 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: and we were successful. So we get back to our 154 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: office and the next day the senior partner calls me 155 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: in and he said, well, I'm sure glad we got 156 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:00,319 Speaker 1: dismissed yesterday because on one of the breaks, the judge 157 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: was cursing out your husband, talking about how terrible the 158 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: Attorney general was to be investigating him. So one of 159 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: the other lawyers said, well, you know, your honor, uh, 160 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 1: that young woman that was in the courtroom, that's Bill 161 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: Clinton's wife. And the judge said, well, if I'd known that, 162 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:18,439 Speaker 1: I wouldn't have dismissed the case against your client. Now, 163 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: that to me encapsulated, you know, the challenge of being 164 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 1: married to a public figure but being very committed to 165 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: my own professional career. I mean, I love that Bill 166 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 1: never asked you to change your name. So when you finally, 167 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: when you finally took the plunge, what did he say 168 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: to you? Was he kind of like thanks? But yeah, yeah, 169 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 1: he basically said, look, you know, I wish you wouldn't 170 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 1: have to do this. I wish you didn't think you 171 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: had to do it. Please don't do it for me. 172 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 1: And you know, he said everything the right thing, but 173 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 1: he also encountered from a lot of you know, his 174 00:10:56,559 --> 00:11:00,679 Speaker 1: male supporters, you know, men who would say, you know, Bill, 175 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 1: I always thought of you as a really you know, 176 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: strong guy, and how come you don't make your wife 177 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 1: take you know, take your name. I mean, it was 178 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: such a flash point, and it it was, you know, 179 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,599 Speaker 1: something that I guess both of us should have predicted. 180 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 1: Now we would be you know, just laughing at it. 181 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:24,959 Speaker 1: But look at what they make big issues out of today. 182 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: So I guess we shouldn't be surprised that anything which 183 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 1: touches a cultural, uh hot point is going to provoke 184 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: a reaction. Do you remember the first time you introduced 185 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:43,439 Speaker 1: yourself as Hillary Clinton? Oh? Sure, I would. I did 186 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: a press conference. I mean, you know, I was at 187 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 1: an event and I said, look, I know this means 188 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,439 Speaker 1: a lot of a number of people, and I don't 189 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: want their concern about you know, my last name to 190 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: interfere with doing what's right for the state and making 191 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:06,319 Speaker 1: some tough decisions. So from now on I will be 192 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: uh known as Hillary Rodham Clinton. I just did it, 193 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: very matter of fact. I didn't make a big deal 194 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:17,679 Speaker 1: out of it, and um, you know I assumed that. Okay, 195 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: now you can argue about me about other things. Why 196 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: is she still working? Why why is she, you know, 197 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: telling people to raise their taxes to pay for teachers? 198 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: What is she doing? And then later why is she 199 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 1: fighting for healthcare and the you know when Bill was president? 200 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 1: So fine, if if, if this gets you to focus 201 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: on what I actually think it is important, and that 202 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: is how we're going to live together, make tough decisions together. Uh, 203 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: let's do that. It's interesting. I mean, there was an 204 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: element of a slippery slope which used to change her name. 205 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: It's that with positive reception and then all of a sudden, 206 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 1: people are like, oh, yeah, but what about your hair 207 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 1: and your glasses make up? Think can we get you 208 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: a stylist. I'm curioused to know whether changing any of 209 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: these parts of yourself ever affected your self perception. You know, 210 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: I never thought any of it affected my um self 211 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:16,319 Speaker 1: perception or my identity, and there were parts that I 212 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: ended up enjoying. You know, I finally got around to 213 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: forcing myself to our contact lenses, you know, made a 214 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: big difference and how I could actually see as well 215 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: as be seen. Uh, I had a lot of fun 216 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you know, thinking well, you know, 217 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: I don't have to just wear turtlenecks and and and 218 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 1: baggy vests and and you know skirts and pants or whatever. Um. So, yeah, 219 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 1: they're parts of it that were interesting that you know, 220 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 1: maybe I wouldn't have pursued had I not married Bill, 221 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 1: or had I not ever married anybody. But I didn't 222 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: ever feel like it affected my core as to who 223 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 1: I was. I I never and I give my parents 224 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:09,559 Speaker 1: credit for this, maya. I never I never really felt like, uh, 225 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: anybody was damaging me or undermining me or subverting me 226 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: because I just didn't, you know, either respond to that 227 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: or didn't frankly allow it. So, you know, maybe it's stubbornness. 228 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: Maybe it's just the you know, strength of you know, 229 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: two parents who never told me that there wasn't anything 230 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: I couldn't do as a woman. Um, and so I 231 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: don't feel like any of the sort of small choices 232 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: compromises that I made along the way were that significant. 233 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 1: I did feel so strong in my own sense of 234 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: being in purpose. I think that also caused a reaction, 235 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: and I think that was hard for people, uh, men 236 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: and women to understand. But it's just who I am. Yeah, 237 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: I do wonder whether this is so interesting because it 238 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 1: almost seems like the people of Arkansas wanted you to 239 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 1: suffer a bit more from that name changed, Like it 240 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: would have almost felt more satisfying, Um, if it had 241 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: been a really challenging thing for you, Like maybe they 242 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: were they were hoping you were going to give them 243 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 1: something meaningful to show how much you. I don't know 244 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 1: is how wrong i'd been. How Yeah, it's like the 245 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: fact that it was easy in some sense because you're 246 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: such a pragmatist right to change your last name, left 247 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: people feeling like, Okay, she changed the last name, but 248 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 1: damn it, but she didn't do enough. Yeah, we were 249 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 1: trying to change her and she's not willing to change. 250 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: That's one right, that's really perceptive. Maya, that is exactly right. 251 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: And this has been a constant theme through my adult life. 252 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: You know, Um, there's something about women stepping into the arena, 253 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: particularly being unapologetic about it, being um, willing to stand 254 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: up against or call out uh strong groups or interest 255 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: groups or forces at work whatever. Uh. That is in 256 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 1: and of itself still somewhat um surprising and even uh 257 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: not fully acceptable. Uh. And and so I I really 258 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 1: did experience that, um, and I think I paid a 259 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: price for it. I mean I think that, you know, 260 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: being unapologetically outspoken and willing to uh challenge conventional wisdom. 261 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: You know, it's discomforting for a lot of people. Yeah, 262 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: did I put up with a lot of stuff? Yeah? 263 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: Did I put up with a lot of stuff when 264 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: I ran for office? Yeah? Did I put up with 265 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 1: you know, all kind lines of you know, sexism and misogyny. Absolutely, 266 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: some I just ignored for you know, all the reasons 267 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: that people women of my age ignored that stuff. Uh. 268 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: It just wasn't worth the battle. Even in the case 269 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,479 Speaker 1: of Arkansas, you made all these superficial changes to your 270 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 1: look and you changed your last name, but it didn't 271 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,400 Speaker 1: it didn't do what people were hoping to do, which 272 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:28,159 Speaker 1: is to break you a little bit, you know, to 273 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: like expose some deep vulnerabilities, because what do bullies want. Ultimately, 274 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: they want to get a rise out of you. They 275 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 1: want to see you crack a bit. But you know, 276 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: it's so interesting. This is so interesting to me because 277 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 1: in the seen campaign, like for example, the famous incident 278 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,679 Speaker 1: of the second debate where Trump is looming over me, 279 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: leering at me and trying to intimidate me, and I'm 280 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 1: madly going through what are my options here? Do I 281 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 1: turn around and say, back up, you creep? You know 282 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: you don't intimidate me? Do I, you know, try to 283 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: laugh it off? What do I do? How do ideal 284 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 1: with what is a clearly uh signaled effort on his 285 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 1: part to his supporters that he's got the little lady 286 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: in hand because he's a master manipulator. And it was hard, 287 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: and eventually I decided, no, you know, I'm not going 288 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 1: to respond. I'm not going to either laugh it off 289 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 1: or try to, you know, expose it, because I don't 290 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:29,479 Speaker 1: want people to think I can't take it. I mean, 291 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 1: I'm trying to be president of the United States, for 292 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: heaven's sakes. So this is a highly complicated calculation as 293 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: a woman, and I probably would guess that women make 294 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 1: that calculation dozens of times a day. Yeah, you know, 295 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: I think that this constant critique that you've gotten over 296 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,160 Speaker 1: the course of your whole life is we don't know 297 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,400 Speaker 1: the real Hillary Clinton. And I just wonder and having 298 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: this conversation if that's a euphemism for we don't accept 299 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: the real Hillary Clinton's that that is exactly She is 300 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: not like me, or she's not like the women that 301 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,640 Speaker 1: I know, or she's not like what I want a 302 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 1: woman to be. You know, I used to laugh when 303 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 1: uh people in the media would say, oh, you know, 304 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: she yells. Have you ever gone to a rally where 305 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 1: any man is running for anything and he doesn't at 306 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 1: some point yell, I mean, good grief, look whoy I 307 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: was running against in and all of the yelling that 308 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: went on. But you know, that's not what we want. 309 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: So this is one of the areas that is really 310 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 1: rich for further research and understanding, because how do you 311 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 1: communicate about that. You know, you don't want to sound 312 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 1: like you're whining, you don't want to sound like you 313 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 1: can't take it, you don't want to sound like you're 314 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: asking for special treatment. But how do you begin to 315 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 1: unpack that we'll be back in a moment. That the 316 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: slight change of plans. When Hillary Clinton moved into the 317 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 1: White House after her husband became president, she again challenged 318 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 1: the cookie cutter role laid out for her, this time 319 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 1: as First Lady of the United States. Instead of sticking 320 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 1: to her ceremonial duties, Hillary was asked by her husband 321 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:34,439 Speaker 1: to lead the Task Force on National Healthcare Reform. It 322 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 1: was an ambitious role that had never been given to 323 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: a first Lady before. She said yes, and almost immediately 324 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: the public criticism began to pour in. You've been under 325 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 1: this glaring spotlight. Right. It's unimaginable for a lot of 326 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:54,239 Speaker 1: people to be under such sustained scrutiny um for so 327 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: many decades. And it's it's almost like you've had this 328 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 1: mirror permanently stationed in front of you that's just been 329 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 1: reflecting things back in the form of a constructed Hillary. Right, 330 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: I mean, and so I do wonder like, obviously many 331 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 1: of the things reflected back to you had been false, 332 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: had been distorted, um. But was there ever something reflected 333 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 1: back to you over the course of your long career 334 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,640 Speaker 1: that taught you something new about yourself? Yes? And and 335 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 1: you know, I think. UM, I say this often because 336 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: young people ask me all the time, how do you 337 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,360 Speaker 1: get into politics? How do you take you know, all 338 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:33,919 Speaker 1: the attacks and everything, And I said, look, I learned 339 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 1: to take criticism seriously, but not personally. And by that, 340 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: I mean your critics can uh teach you things that 341 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:49,439 Speaker 1: your friends either won't or I don't know to UM, 342 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: you have to be careful about where the criticism is 343 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: coming from because a lot of times it's not well meaning. 344 00:21:55,840 --> 00:22:00,119 Speaker 1: It's not it's not well intentioned at all, but you 345 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:04,399 Speaker 1: do have to at least understand and try to figure 346 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:08,640 Speaker 1: out how best to deal with it. So with respect 347 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 1: to health care, UM, I you know, I learned a 348 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 1: lot about the perceptions shaping reality. UM. You know. My 349 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: view was that we had all these really hard working, 350 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: incredibly smart people from all over the country who were 351 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 1: coming up with a plan that would make it possible 352 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: for us to get to universal health care and make 353 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 1: it affordable. So, I mean I worked on that very 354 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,439 Speaker 1: hard to help shape it and then to help present it. 355 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 1: But I really believe that because I was the President's wife, 356 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: it was hard for a lot of people to accept 357 00:22:54,760 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: the UM plan for what it was And if I 358 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: had known that going in, I still would have worked 359 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 1: really hard on it, but I wouldn't have headed it. 360 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: Somebody else would have been the face of it, because 361 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: all I cared about was trying to get it done. 362 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 1: And you're taking it on as the first Lady of 363 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,400 Speaker 1: the United States, unpaid volunteer. But nevertheless in that role 364 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,640 Speaker 1: that may just be too much for the body politic 365 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: to absorb. And what did that teach you about yourself 366 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 1: in terms of you know where where specific blind spot was, 367 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: or something that you just needed to learn the hard way, 368 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: like well, I mean, it was a very big learning 369 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 1: curve to be in a position that was totally vicarious. 370 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: You know, everybody in a White House is there for 371 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 1: only one reason. The President wants them there. And who 372 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 1: who the president Mary's ends up in the White House, 373 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 1: who the President picks as vice president ends up in 374 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:58,439 Speaker 1: the White House. All these people end up in the 375 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 1: White House. So I didn't have agency in a way 376 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:08,400 Speaker 1: that made it my responsibility um as I did when 377 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: I became a senator. I do wonder whether learning this 378 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 1: lesson um when you were first Lady in the White 379 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:21,879 Speaker 1: House and recognizing that you maybe didn't love playing the 380 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:26,919 Speaker 1: vicarious role ended up fueling your interest in you know, 381 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: untethering yourself and and running for senate. Was that was 382 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: that part of the evolution for you? Yes, it was. 383 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: And I'll tell you the exact moment that it all 384 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 1: came together, because I had, as I said, no idea 385 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: that I would ever actually run for office. And then, 386 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: you know, having um been in the White House and 387 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,440 Speaker 1: knowing that it was going to end, you know, trying 388 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: to think about what I was going to do next 389 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: was pretty much on my mind. And after the mid 390 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 1: term elections when and then Senator moynihan said he wasn't 391 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 1: going to run again, immediately Democrats in New York started 392 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: calling me asking me to run, and and I'm sure 393 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 1: some of them thought I would be an excellent senator, 394 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 1: but a lot of them thought that, um, I was 395 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 1: the only person they could think of who was available, 396 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: who could beat Rudy Giuliani, who was running. So you know, 397 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:26,199 Speaker 1: he had been mayor, he was obviously controversial, he was 398 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 1: obviously tough and all of that. So we hadn't seen 399 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:33,680 Speaker 1: anything yet, which is anything. Well, he lost he lost 400 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: his mind. I think I don't know what happened to him. 401 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,479 Speaker 1: But so people started calling me members of Congress and others, 402 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 1: and I kept saying no, no, no, no no. And 403 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: then in the spring of ninety nine, I was as 404 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 1: first lady in New York City at a high school 405 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,880 Speaker 1: to promote women's sports. It was like a Title nine event, 406 00:25:55,119 --> 00:26:01,160 Speaker 1: and there was a new um documentary coming out about 407 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: women in sports, and the name of the documentary was 408 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: Dare to Compete. And of course, you know, the New 409 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 1: York papers are filled with people trying to get me 410 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: to run and my saying, you know, no, etcetera. And 411 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 1: the young woman who introduced me captain of you know, 412 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: basketball team, she introduced me, and then she bent over 413 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 1: and she whispered in my ear, dare to compete, Mrs Clinton, 414 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 1: dare to compete. I was so astonished by that, because 415 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 1: you know, I had spent many years urging women to compete, 416 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 1: you know, in sports and academics and science, in politics. 417 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:43,160 Speaker 1: I campaigned for dozens of women running for Congress or governor, 418 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 1: whatever election it was. And I suddenly thought to myself, 419 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: maybe you're afraid to compete. Maybe you are telling people 420 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 1: to do something that you wouldn't do yourself. And it 421 00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: was literally at that moment that I took seriously running 422 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 1: for the Senate and working through it and trying to 423 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: be as honest with myself as I could. I thought, Okay, 424 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: I'm going to try this, and I had no idea 425 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,919 Speaker 1: whether it would work or not, because when you're uh 426 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: supporting somebody else, and I'd support it, not just my husband, 427 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,439 Speaker 1: but you know, hundreds of people, you know, it's always 428 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: about them, and then all of a sudden, you know 429 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 1: it's about you. And so it was. It was a 430 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: big transition. But it was that well, that young woman 431 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: at that moment that really, I think turned my head around. 432 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,120 Speaker 1: What do you think you were scared of? I think 433 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 1: it was just the unknown. I think it was knowing 434 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 1: how hard politics is, because honestly I'm kind of an 435 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: expert on that. I thought, you know, I'm just gonna 436 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,239 Speaker 1: be walking into the meat grinder. It's been, you know, 437 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 1: a very eventful eight years. I could go teach, or 438 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,399 Speaker 1: write or do all kinds of interesting things. Why do 439 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 1: I want to do that? You know? Why do I 440 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,479 Speaker 1: want to subject myself to that? And and remember I 441 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: had been burned in effigy long with other things, so 442 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 1: I knew I was already again because of all the 443 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 1: stuff I represented as a I don't know, baby boomer 444 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: woman who you know, didn't know her place. I guess 445 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: I had been, you know, subjected to so many attacks 446 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: from Rush Limbaugh and all the people like that. Why 447 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: did I want to do that? Why? And then I 448 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:37,439 Speaker 1: kind of thought, Okay, you have been and you also 449 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: believe that there's a lot of things we need to do. 450 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: You've had a front row seat on history. So get 451 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: out there and try. You never know until you try. Um, 452 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: So that's what I ended up doing. Yeah. I think 453 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 1: it's easy for people to think of you now and 454 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 1: say Hillary Clinton came out of the box this way, right. 455 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 1: She was she always had the courage in bravery to 456 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 1: run for these big offices. But you know, you had 457 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 1: to go through your own personal evolution just like every 458 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: other person out there. Um, what were some if you 459 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:13,959 Speaker 1: don't mind sharing, like, what were some insecurities that you 460 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: had along the way that you had to work through? 461 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. You know, once you're out there on 462 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 1: your own, you're not there too advocate for a program 463 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 1: or advocate for a candidate. You know, I think, um, 464 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 1: we're gonna be atty good at it. You know, you 465 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 1: go from behind the scenes to the front of the stage, 466 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,720 Speaker 1: and how are people going to respond to you? And 467 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 1: are they going to believe you, listen to you, agree 468 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 1: with you? Um, is your personality? Is it going to 469 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: be enough? So yeah, I mean there's a lot of 470 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: of criticism, and then you know, you get all of 471 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: the gendered criticism like, um, don't wear that color where 472 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: this color, don't wear flat shoes where heels or vice versa, 473 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 1: don't let your hair grow, don't let your hair be short. 474 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,479 Speaker 1: I mean, you everybody feels like they can critique a 475 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 1: woman in the public arena. They don't do that to men, 476 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: you know, nine percent of the time. And I had 477 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 1: some of the same experience when I practiced law, because 478 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: you know, there were expectations about what a woman lawyer 479 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 1: should look like. So I wasn't totally surprised, but the 480 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 1: amount of unsolicited advice that you start to receive, and 481 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:40,719 Speaker 1: people say things like, you know, uh, learn to talk 482 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: like and then they always fell on a man's name, 483 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 1: like learn to talk like Bill Clinton, learned to talk 484 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 1: like Winston Churchill. I remember somebody said all of these 485 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: kind of uh, you know, expectations that are not at 486 00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: all who you are, and what you have to do 487 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: is just earned to be yourself, and just be yourself 488 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 1: and do the best you can, and then you know 489 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 1: you'll either be successful or not, but at least you'll 490 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: be true to yourself. I have been pretty much the 491 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: same person says that was a little girl, and I 492 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 1: think your insights into how that rattled a lot of 493 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 1: people in terms of what was to be expected. But 494 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 1: I also think that it still is affecting women across 495 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: the board in every walk of life, and so you 496 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: have to first of all be at peace with who 497 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: you are, then try to translate that into the role 498 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: you're playing in an effective way, whether it's private or 499 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 1: personal or public, and just get the most out of 500 00:31:50,000 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 1: every day. Constiu, constute, if we hadn't talked so much 501 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 1: about me, I have a lot of questions for you. 502 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: I think you're slightly more interesting than me, So I'm 503 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: glad we spent the time this way. It was such 504 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 1: a pleasure. Good luck too, and I hope I get 505 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 1: to meet you in person. Take care, Yes, I hope 506 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 1: so too. All right, take care, Okay, bye bye, Hey, 507 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 1: thanks for listening. See you next week when I'm going 508 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: to be talking to change expert Dr Katie Milkman about 509 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 1: science based strategies to help you inspire change in your 510 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 1: own life. And I was in the seminar and a 511 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: graph went up, which normally doesn't change your life, but 512 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 1: this graph changed my life. The graph just showed a 513 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 1: breakdown of how many premature deaths are due to different causes, 514 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 1: and of premature death turn out to be the result 515 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 1: of decisions that we can change. Do you have a 516 00:32:57,920 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans story that you'd like to share? 517 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 1: Are leave a message on our change hotline at nine 518 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,960 Speaker 1: one seven, five four four eight, nine seven seven. It 519 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 1: could just end up on a future episode of this show. 520 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: That's nine one seven, five four four eight nine seven seven. 521 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 1: You can follow us on Twitter at Slight Change Pod. 522 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is created, co written, and 523 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: executive produced by me Maya Shunker. It's produced and co 524 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: written by Mola Board. Associate producer is David John, Executive 525 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:35,719 Speaker 1: producer is Justine Lange, Editor is Jen Guera. Sound design 526 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 1: and mixed engineering from Jason Gambrel and Ben Holliday. Our 527 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 1: theme song is I Can Change by Lake Street Dive. 528 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 1: Original music for the series by Jason Gambrel, additional music 529 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 1: from Blue Dot Sessions and Epidemic Sound, and of course 530 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 1: a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. To learn more 531 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 1: about a Slight Change of Plans and to sign up 532 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 1: for our newsletter, visit Pushkin dot fm. You can follow 533 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: us at at Pushkin Podcasts on social media, and if 534 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 1: you like a Slight Change of Plans, please remember to subscribe, 535 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,239 Speaker 1: share rate, and review. It helps get the word out 536 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,319 Speaker 1: so more people can find the show. To find more 537 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 1: Pushkin podcasts, listen on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 538 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts.